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Episode 3 - Niclas Larsson - The Power of Naivete
780 Plays1 year ago
Niclas Larsson began his career as a child actor and now is one of the leading commercial directors in the world. The Swedish director linked with King She to talk about the gift of being naive early in a director’s career, bringing a punk sensibility to commercial directing, and collaborating with clients to maximise artful output. Niclas shares many gems of insight from his robust career including how the foundation for it all is in the writing, how his early work as a child actor informs his directing today, and how to direct from a place of affirmation rather than critique.
Episode Mentions:
Adam Berg
The Carousel - Phillips
Erik Torrell
Gustov Johansson
Iconoclast
Steven Spielberg
Romain Gavras
Mother Couch
Ewan McGregor
Camp David
Volvo - The Parents Commercial
Whats App - One Ad
Kasper Tuxen
Linus Sandgren
Rodrigo Prieto
Evan Prosofsky
Paul Thomas Anderson
Boogie Nights
Magnolia
Taxi Driver .
This episode is sponsored by Somesuch, Supreme Music, Bonaparte Films, UN.STUDIOS, and Cartel.
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Transcript
The Superpower of Naivete
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm jealous of my former self, actually. Being a young director, you have a superpower. And I think that is being naive, because no one taught you how the industry works. No one taught you how to do shit. I hope, I wish, even after this movie, that I can stay naive.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:19
Speaker
You're listening to the Young Directors Award podcast. We're King She and we're your hosts.
Nicholas Larson's Early Start
00:00:24
Speaker
And this is episode three with Nicholas Larson.
00:00:30
Speaker
So here's a quick bio on Nicholas before we jump into the conversation. He started his career in front of the camera at age six as a child actor. His first short film won the Grand Jury Prize in Audience Award at the Gothenburg International Film Fest. And he's currently in post on his first feature film. It's called Mother Couch. And it stars Ewan McGregor and Ellen Bursty. Here we go, Nicholas Larson.
00:00:51
Speaker
We had so much fun at dinner with you.
Journey to Iconoclast and Camp David
00:00:54
Speaker
One of the things that we were chatting about after dinner, we were so struck by the fact that you signed to Iconoclast when you were 18, which is such an incredibly young age. How did you do that? And what was your journey to get there?
00:01:08
Speaker
It's funny because I worked at a company called Camp David. It was a company in Sweden. The way it started was me and Gustav and our friend and producer Eric who we later actually started Newland. We were just hanging out in the basement of Camp David making music videos. I was in Gustav's videos and he was in mine and we just made like a music video every weekend and one thing led to another.
Working with Steven Spielberg
00:01:31
Speaker
That's actually how it started. Dude, that's dope as fuck.
00:01:33
Speaker
It's fun, huh? It was really cool. I was in a season to Adam Berg and he just won the Grand Prix for the carousel. I don't know if you remember that Phillips ad and it was like, he was the hottest thing. And I remember he got like casual phone calls from like Steven Spielberg and stuff at the office and it was, it was really cool. Like he would pick up the phone and it would be Steven Spielberg. Yeah. Yeah. He would like put speaker and he was like, it's Steven Spielberg.
00:02:00
Speaker
Is it? I think it's a prank. It must be a prank, Adam.
Serendipity with Iconoclast
00:02:04
Speaker
When Iconoclasts started, they just reached out, basically. And I don't know, Ami and Gustav Johansson, we made like a couple of music videos and small, tiny commercials that
00:02:16
Speaker
On Vimeo was like viral or whatever and they picked up on that and it was a small company we didn't know. I mean, truthfully, we had no idea it was going to take over the world as it did. Roman was there and we loved his work but that was like before he was the Roman Gavra he is now and we just joined.
00:02:36
Speaker
So you basically were like all young filmmakers coming around to a young production company and coming up together. That's exactly it. Like our goal was never, we never looked at the big production companies. So like when Iconoclasts called us, it was like, sure.
00:02:53
Speaker
They're the only ones that want to sign us. I guess this is a good thing.
Newland's Growth
00:02:58
Speaker
And with Newland, are you one of the company owners? We kind of realized at Camp David at some point, we were the only one working, really. And we just like, we can just do this ourselves. So it's interesting, the idea was to never grow. We just like, we got to keep it small. Like, that's our goal. Like, we're just going to stay here. We're just going to find another basement and we're just going to do our shit.
00:03:19
Speaker
Literally two years later, we're like the biggest production company in Scandinavia and we're like, oh fuck, like that's not good. And then just like, you know, stuff happened. Oh my God. I love that you said that's not good when that's like every company owners.
00:03:35
Speaker
It's funny because we were sort of opposed to the big machine, but it's sort of inevitable when you do good stuff. Like we did small stuff that grew bigger. You know, I remember my first Volvo ad was our first year at Newland.
Volvo Advertisement Success
00:03:51
Speaker
It was a tiny Volvo thing that I made something out of and all of a sudden it got a word or whatever. And we're like, all right, now the jobs grew. It wasn't by design at all.
00:04:02
Speaker
actually. And still isn't, I think. Even though it's bigger now, scale has never been a goal at all. I mean, the work you do with Volvo is insane. And I know that that's like a client that you've now cultivated for years and years and years. And your commercials are so uniquely artful and so filled with things. And you have the feeling that you're watching some kind of cut down of a feature film.
00:04:28
Speaker
How do you do that in the short form space, specifically in advertising?
Creative Process in Advertising
00:04:32
Speaker
Like how do you get that to happen? I mean, it's a good question. I mean, this sounds dumb, but I rarely read the agency script before I write my own.
00:04:42
Speaker
I think it gives you something if you do the call with the agency and they tell you the idea. Sometimes they walk you through the script or whatever. But if you as a director just approach it from the way like how would I write something to this idea, then it's something pure. And then later maybe you can decide to read their script or not. But that's
00:05:04
Speaker
Sort of how it started with Volvo I got the brief and I just wrote my own little thing because I was a punk and naive and didn't care about money and stuff and one thing led to another and suddenly like that's sort of my thing now I like I know what they want but I don't read their version of the script because then how can I direct it if it didn't come from me genuinely, you know, I
00:05:28
Speaker
So just to kind of get to the specifics of that as part of your pitch, thank you guys for the call and for considering me. Here's my thoughts on what this could be. That's right, Robert. Exactly. And I usually tell them we haven't worked together. The way I work is that I'm going to throw the ball really far.
00:05:44
Speaker
and hand you guys over something maybe next week. Like early, it doesn't even have to be on the treatment date. Like it can be before the due date of the treatment. I'm like, I'm just going to throw something out. And if I threw the ball too far, just throw it back at me and then we can talk about it. But it's sort of a way to initiate a dialogue rather than writing something like cracking it in into a stone and like, here's my pitch. And also what it does is like it takes away the fear, I think, because words aren't pressured.
00:06:12
Speaker
i mean words we can change words all the time like words the writing isn't a thing we should be we should hold like as a hostage words can change all the time i'm actually on this big job right now where i'm gladly changing the script.
00:06:28
Speaker
I think I'm on four complete new versions and the client loves it, the agency loves it because it's like an open conversation. I think that's the way it should be because that's the way you do short films and films. You never set something in stone.
Influence of Writing on Directing
00:06:45
Speaker
That's what I think how they come about, the four-minute version of the WhatsApp ad or something. It usually starts with, hey, Nicholas, we would like a 60-second version and then
00:06:58
Speaker
I present something I'm like, this is a two and a half hour version of your thing. Would you mind? I need your comments on the two and a half hour thing. Your focus and priorities as a director is then on writing or
00:07:13
Speaker
Is it visuals, casts, music? I mean, when I see your films, it's like all of that is in there. That's so nice. That's so sweet. No, actually, it's a really good question because my thing is writing. And I think that's the foundation of building the house. I mean, people come from this in so many ways. But I believe that if you have a genuine interest in writing and reading, you can also form your own visual language.
00:07:40
Speaker
Truthfully, I kind of suck at finding references and stuff. I have great assistants that find great references that I'm always like, I'm like, oh, that'll be beautiful. I tend to hire great cinematographers that can sort of make me look good. But I like it, but I'm not good at it, actually. So yeah, writing for sure.
00:08:01
Speaker
But also acting, because I think your choice of cast is really unexpected and fresh, but also super authentic. There's a quote that I read that you said somewhere, even though you haven't acted professionally in over a decade, that the knowledge of the craft allows you to push actors.
00:08:18
Speaker
because that's something you responded to when you were acting. Me and my therapist have a great explanation of how everything turned out the way it turned out. My mom was a hairdresser and I used after school hangout in her salon and just like, I don't know, sweeping the floors or whatever from the age of, I don't know, six maybe. And you know how in hair salons they have stacks of just gossip magazines, like shitty literature. But I was exposed to that world very early on and I think
00:08:47
Speaker
Honestly, it comes from that. I looked at my type of literature and I read about these movie stars and I'm like, I want to be that. So I started acting and I got a bunch of parts and slowly I started realizing, really feeling like
00:09:04
Speaker
an actor sometimes do like an outsider of the actual project this is obviously something i know now i did i wasn't that clear about it but i found behind the camera is where i had actual magic happen and i found it very frustrating if it was like if i did a feature and i had a small part for example i get
00:09:22
Speaker
And it was like a 30 day shoot. I always wondered what happened in between. So I started creating small things, writing during the shooting of these films. A lot of the productions just happily let me shoot stuff when I was like hanging out, waiting and stuff. So I made a bunch of short films.
00:09:42
Speaker
while on set uh yeah with like the other kid actors i was in a lot of like kid movies and it was great opportunity to just like it was a bunch of actors there they had cameras we had a studio floor all these props which was fantastic like and so i just we just started making shit up and i literally just kept doing that until today like i just
00:10:04
Speaker
I'm like, where's the proper out? Where's my actor? But I think I mean, rather to your first question, I think acting is essentially the only thing we should point the camera towards. I mean, I think in order to convey emotions, you can do it with
00:10:20
Speaker
certain art films and stuff where it's more ambiguous and it could be shapes and colors and stuff. But what I connect to is connecting a face through a machine and to an audience. I think that little magic box between a human and a machine and human, I think is absolutely magical. I think that's why actors are literally the most important thing we have as directors.
00:10:50
Speaker
Outside of kid acting, Nicholas, did you actually study acting in university or was there any kind of traditional work done to learn the craft of acting? When I was
Acting Background's Influence
00:10:59
Speaker
in high school, I did like a college sort of like an undergrad thing. That was really fun to like do the Shakespeare's and stuff. And I just read online the accepted 16 year olds. So I'm like, fuck it, let's just do it now instead of waiting until I'm 18. And I got I got in. And so
00:11:15
Speaker
Yeah, Robert, I did some traditional work. I did my fair share of Shakespeare on stage and stuff. And yeah, I'm very lucky it's not shot on film, you know, or that no one can look it up. Right.
00:11:32
Speaker
Although I have to show you Casper Tuxon was also a child actor. Yeah. Did you see his little special effects reel? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, baby. Have you seen his unbelievably appropriate commercial for bread?
00:11:49
Speaker
That's gonna have to be on the episode liner notes. It's fantastic. Whatever adage you see have that idea, I think should get some sort of credit for maybe the most important. How do you work as a director who has acting experience? How do you then work with actors? Good question. I think first of all, you need to know their insecurities. I think that's lesson number one.
00:12:13
Speaker
It's very intimidating having 50 people look at you. And when you yell for another take, you can easily feel like it's your fault that you are wasting people's time because you didn't deliver or whatever. First of all, you need to know their insecurities. And I think the main approach to my directing, at least, it's to always direct
00:12:35
Speaker
in a positive space so for example when you direct someone i never use negative terms so i don't use the word like don't look here you know or like don't walk over here or you don't have to show me or stuff like that i rather say what i need and want.
00:12:54
Speaker
Because you have a little space when you say cut and when you have to think. I've done mistakes before where some directors I hear, I've actually experienced this as well. They sit right next to the camera so they can really feel the actor. I tried that for a little while. What that did was that the space you have from cut
00:13:16
Speaker
until you either move on or you actually approach the actor, you're not alone. And as a director, you have a little opportunity to think how to direct. And if they see you as the first person, they can interpret the way you react physically and emotionally or whatever. I'd rather hide myself where the actor at the end of a take, the actor doesn't see me. And I have a little room. We're not talking many seconds, maybe like 30 seconds.
00:13:45
Speaker
where I can phrase my wording into a positive note and then I walk over to my actor. So for example, like if you need an actor to act less, you know, instead of saying take it down or if instead of saying not that much or whatever.
00:14:03
Speaker
you can instead walk over and say, do it more for you, stay in your zone. You can actually give them something rather than taking something. So I think that's my rule number one. And also actors love to be directed. I think that's what every director should know. They love challenges. We can't be actor shy. And some directors are because actors can be intimidating because they sort of possess something
00:14:29
Speaker
that we don't you know they are sort of magical in that way when you say that you have to discover their insecurities what does that not necessarily discover you have to know their security so if for example you need an actor to cry you can either make the set quiet and you can let everybody know this is an emotional and powerful scene and you you can make this big drama out of it or
00:14:55
Speaker
you can walk up to an actor and say, I need you to cry in the next set up. How do you want me to do that? How can we together get there? Because they will answer. They will let you know. They're like, yeah, let's have the set quiet and let's have a few people as round as possible. And let's have everybody naked and let's do it. You know, or they say, no, no, I got this. Uh, you don't have to do like, don't make a big deal out of it. You know, you need to talk to your actors. And Robert, that's what I mean with no, they're insecurities because just ask them what makes them insecure.
00:15:24
Speaker
and what would make them not insecure, you know? Do you do something similar if you were to just walk through just kind of a basic scene? Like in this one, we need you to get something from that person and you're in the middle of an argument. How can I help you get there? Like, do you have that type of open dialogue of what do you need to be able to hit this mark or hit this idea?
00:15:44
Speaker
sometimes every actor is different, right? So some need to know where they come from. And I think that's, you should know that a helpful tool that I usually do is that I write a little booklet for myself that I have on set with every scene written down and the core of the scene and the intention the actor should have where the actor's been or where the character's been. And
00:16:10
Speaker
where the character is going and why the character is doing whatever it's doing. I don't necessarily, I don't show that to the actor, but it's for me. So if they have any questions, I can always go back to the core. I can always say, no, the core intention here is disconnect, but I don't talk in those terms because actors don't like that at all. But if I know the core of the scene is disconnect,
00:16:31
Speaker
then i can walk up to my cinematographer i can say i need them to disconnect here i need them to actually separate and i can direct my actors in that way i can use disconnecting words take an example as the separation scene in my whatsapp.
00:16:47
Speaker
add that the disconnect there was very easy to do because i knew it was going to be both visually about a disconnect but also them you know the actor can talk he's like well i should probably then turn my back around.
00:17:02
Speaker
I'm like, whoa, would you turn your back against the one you love? And he's like, if I didn't want to see her face, yes. And he's like, okay. He turns his back around. And then I'm like, would you, to her then I'm like, would you stay? And she's like, no, but I think everything should go dark. I'm like, wow, that's an interesting thing from an actor. Would you close your door as a go dark? She's like, no, I would never close my door. I'm like, okay, cool. So I just totally in a sanger and you shot the shot the ad. I'm like, let's just turn off the lights.
00:17:31
Speaker
So all of a sudden, with your actors, you create this thing. Because I could have the idea in my head, but the idea gets so much better when you work with talented people. For sure.
00:17:46
Speaker
Well, I mean, one of our questions to you was going to be to describe your process with collaborators because you've attracted such great collaborators to you at such an early stage, like Lena Sandgren, who you're just talking about. Can you describe your process with collaborators? Do you try to use the same people over and over again? Sometimes. I think it's a good notion as a filmmaker generally to know who you work well with.
00:18:10
Speaker
So i think i explored a lot of people but as a rule i approach people i'm very inspired by so whether i work with.
00:18:21
Speaker
a cinematographer who won a lot of awards or if I work with a set designer, I think you don't need to know what their job is. You probably need to know what their job is about, but you don't need to know how to do their job. And especially as a young director, sometimes you need to work with people that doesn't inspire you. So you need to sort of push
00:18:44
Speaker
That's good to a certain degree, but it's unbelievably helpful to have someone that you look up to push you as a director. So it comes from another source. And I first discovered that when I worked with Rodrigo Prieto, we did a thing, uh, years back and his approach to cinematography, obviously, I mean, he's a unbelievably talented cinematographer working with Scorsese and
Collaboration with Talented Team
00:19:09
Speaker
all, all those guys.
00:19:10
Speaker
I felt suddenly I'm like, whoa, I'm in the hands of a master now. I need to be better now. I need to push myself in order to deliver to him and not only to an agency or to an actor or whatever. That was probably maybe eight years ago. And from that moment on, I'm like, I need those people. You know, I want those people around me. Yeah. I guess I get nervous about sometimes reaching out to people like that. Not that I can afford it, but
00:19:37
Speaker
You will soon. Next week, for sure. Next week, for my next year. In theory, if I could, I would be nervous because I was like, oh, they're going to show up and they're not really going to care maybe. Yeah, that fear is, I think, is valid. And you should be scared. I mean, because
00:19:55
Speaker
who are you next to whatever but that person will judge that not you necessary i mean you can only ask if you get a no you get a no and you will get a hundred no but that doesn't really matter but i think the question is always there and the benefit of yes is so big then the risk is.
00:20:15
Speaker
I think on collaborations like that, do you create certain conditions to try to make that work better when you feel like you're really stretching? Like, for instance, I know you're just finishing your first feature film.
00:20:28
Speaker
And I know you're working with really huge collaborators in terms of actors. How do you stretch in a situation like that? Being a young director, you have a superpower. And I think that is being naive, because no one taught you how the industry works. No one taught you how to do shit. You can only listen to people like really smart people on YouTube knowing stuff. But that's a beautiful little space you have. And I think I hope
00:20:59
Speaker
I wish, even after this movie, that I can stay naive.
00:21:04
Speaker
But you guys know this as well. I mean, you guys are, I mean, surely just starting out, but you do so, so well, but like, don't you feel like after every job, your naivete is sort of like hindered a little bit. You're like, Oh, I'm not going to do that next time. Or I'm not going to, don't you feel that way? Well, I mean, this is also a part of, it's a weird catch 22, right? Because you've clearly even had the experience of, I mean, I think every, every filmmaker does where you shoot something and you're like,
00:21:29
Speaker
we could have probably shot that could have shot that better and so you kind of do that process of self auditing and then in that rigor of an audit you also kind of self learn you know how to be better right but i think also it's something about the space of not knowing that's so beautiful and i think.
00:21:51
Speaker
Approaching really big names that clearly know they know we you know they know way more than you. You can almost act like what if we do this and you can tell sometimes in there sometimes when i work with this is obviously way more experience than i am i'm like. What if we step on this you know what if we do this and i have no idea what i'm really talking about but since he's like.
00:22:14
Speaker
cinematographer, he needs to meet me somehow. And that can sometimes be really fun because he needs to explore and I need to explore and it becomes this weird thing. And I had this, I mean, sure, you're right. In my movie, I have unbelievably talented actors, but I felt that my
00:22:35
Speaker
sort of childishness and by me not knowing how to direct them, we just sort of built like this very special thing. And in the end, I think you can actually tell like some of these performances are maybe the best in their career.
00:22:50
Speaker
And maybe because of that because I didn't have any uh knowledge of how to direct a Two-time oscar winner, you know talking about you in mcgregor i'm talking about he doesn't he didn't win. Uh, he didn't win in the oscar yet, but he might might actually yeah Uh, but uh, I have a couple of other oscar winners in my movie and I and it's very intimidating but then again They like to play right? Uh, they like to play and also, I don't know. I have a great anecdote from
00:23:20
Speaker
One of my first ever ads I did was this Swedish sports brand. They've never done anything. They've done stills campaign before, but they wanted sort of a Nike campaign. But they had 50,000 euros, I think. And I told them, I'm like, look,
00:23:39
Speaker
I mean, for me, I'm 19 years old, 50,000 euros, I can probably build like a castle for, you know, but if you ask any other director, it's like not even, it's not even a day of shooting, you know, like you will get like a day in stock on maybe but
00:23:54
Speaker
I can take those 50,000. I mean, this is radical, but I can take those $50,000. I can do a road trip through America like during two weeks, shoot on the way, cast on the way. You guys give me a couple of bags of your clothes and we can do something. And they said, yes, but they got like 20
00:24:12
Speaker
20 shooting days out of nothing. I think I got paid 2K and I was so happy. But it turned out great because I was naive. I would never do that today. And that's what I mean with that, Robert. I don't know. I would probably never
00:24:29
Speaker
Say that I would say no you need you need three and a half million dollars for sure if you but but that I actually hate that about myself and I think that stays In between being a young director and an established director is so pure and so beautiful I mean it was me and you and Prosofsky Traveling across the southern states just shooting we had I think 30 rolls of 16 mil it was me him my producer and
00:24:56
Speaker
and one guy from the agency the first week, kind of, and we just drove. We just drove and shot. That sounds so good. That sounds so freeing. Right. As a young director, you can do that. And I think, in a way, you should approach everything in that way, I think. I'm jealous of my former self, actually.
00:25:17
Speaker
the power of naivete. I mean, I think that might be the title of this episode. That's a good title. No, but I'm telling you guys, do you guys have that opportunity now? You know, you can do that. Well, honestly, we're just like whatever comes our way. We just say yes. We talked about this over dinner the other day. We're like, Oh, okay. Yeah, it shoots next week. And normally this is three weeks, three weeks to prep. We could prep that in five days. Sure. No problem. Yeah.
00:25:45
Speaker
Meanwhile, I read the same thing and I'm like, impossible. I would never, don't ever send me this. But then that's the problem. Then I will watch your thing and I will be like, fuck, I should have done this. This is so good. They did something with it. Why did I? But that's the space where new directors enter, right? The
Challenges for New Directors
00:26:04
Speaker
places where things feel impossible.
00:26:07
Speaker
places that things are maybe not as well resourced. That's it. Yeah. One thing that really struck us over dinner too, you tell clients that you're the representation of the audience. And I don't know if it's something you want to talk about or not today, but we cannot stop talking about it because that just like synthesized something in our brains. That was really quite valuable.
00:26:29
Speaker
I think it's a very important aspect of being especially a commercial director. As from an agency point of view, you sit for maybe a year sometimes with one campaign and you have no idea if this is good or bad or if it's just like filtered through a couple of marketing executives and all of a sudden it's this
00:26:52
Speaker
whatever glue, I don't know, whatever thing you have. And you're like, all right, I guess we have a budget now. And I guess they need a film. And they have the opportunity to send it out to a couple of people to sort of interpret the years of experience. Why wouldn't you ask the commercial director use that and tell them
00:27:12
Speaker
this is great, but there's a better version of this. And I know that because I, for the first time in months for you, I, as an audience can read this and interpret it. So they send it out to a unique person to just be like, is this the best? Is this the thing now? Should we shoot this? And
00:27:36
Speaker
I always tell my clients and both agencies and real clients, I say to them, look, I'm the only one that can represent the audience. Cause you don't know you have like the agency have an agenda. The client has an agenda. Everyone has bosses. I'm like, I don't have any boss. I'm going to be very honest with you. If I don't agree with certain things that you do, I might shoot it for you because you pay me, but as an audience, I will react to this. And I think.
00:28:05
Speaker
If I were a client, I would love someone like that. I mean, it might seem a bit radical, but I think that's what they actually maybe pay for. At least I have opinions. It's interesting this idea that you're being commissioned to basically execute on a very specific thing that has a very specific agenda and what it's trying to communicate.
00:28:28
Speaker
And that there you feel like that there's space here as a director to still be like, yeah, but wait a second, like, as as audience, it doesn't communicate to me, or maybe it could communicate in a different way in a better way. In so many examples, we see also this Robert, like
00:28:43
Speaker
I mean, I'm not going to mention any brands here, but it was a very blue campaign from a soda ad. I'm always fascinated about that ad specifically because it was a director there.
00:29:00
Speaker
I'm not surprised about the ideas because I can see all the agency's wishes and I can see the client's wishes and they need to have blue flags there and they need to be inclusive there. I can see all that, but as a director, your job is to render that into something that someone can relate to because no one can relate to a marketing team. No one can relate to an ad agency, but they can relate to a filmmaker. That's for sure because we're humans.
00:29:30
Speaker
looking at those, especially that film, I'm like, your job here is to not do this. Oh my God, I love that. My job is not to do this. Okay, I'm definitely going to try.
00:29:46
Speaker
You've just empowered me in a whole host. Yeah, I might be sued. I mean, yeah. I mean, one of the things that you mentioned, Nicholas, when we spoke last was this idea of, I think, objectively looking at your work or kind of like the landscape of your reel. There's a lot
Strategies for Avoiding Director's Cuts
00:30:07
Speaker
of pieces that are
00:30:08
Speaker
two minutes long, three minutes long, you know, feature that might not be as product-centric as US agency kind of renders pieces out to. And I asked you and had wondered if how much of that work was actually like a director's cut or like a cut that you were kind of doing outside of
00:30:28
Speaker
um the kind of main delivery of uh of the job and you brought up that you actually had sold that work through and that had kind of really that had really kind of perplexed me because so much of it's like a little bit of what you were speaking about before but they call you up and they say okay well Nicholas we want this 60 and it kind of has to do this thing and feel this way and then when I look at your showreel your showreel has
00:30:53
Speaker
more or less like if I were to be a reductionist like kind of beautiful little short films or kind of like narrative kind of flourishes to that so maybe we could just speak a little bit on how you're actually getting that work across the line if those works aren't specifically director cuts. I think it's good your job is not to make a director's cut I think as a as a commercial director your job isn't is trying to avoid a director's cut as much as you possibly can because the director's cut is not the job
00:31:23
Speaker
Imagine if you paid an architect to build you a house and the architect goes away and like, yeah, I'll build you the house, but next to the house, I'll be this very beautiful other house that's way longer. I'm like, why didn't I get that house too? Or could we talk about it? I think what I try to do is to understand the client's real need. I asked them a lot of questions in the first call about
00:31:54
Speaker
the conversations, especially the agency and the client has over where the space for this film or for these moving images, where that space is. And lately,
00:32:06
Speaker
What I understand is that the market, the money from the market comes usually from an agreement that we need six second versions and we need 15 second versions. And maybe if we can afford it, we need a 30 second for a couple of markets. So that's the house. You need to build that house.
00:32:29
Speaker
That's your job, right? So you need to deliver that, the best in your ability. But then you can say, well, from my perspective, I think we have something bigger and larger and more important here. We have maybe a love story. Actually, have you guys considered this? And a love story takes more than 30 seconds to
00:32:50
Speaker
to convey. Some can probably, I mean, maybe it doesn't. I haven't seen it really. I need at least a minute and a half. And I tell them, wouldn't it be great if we have this house? Wouldn't it be great if we also built this thing?
00:33:05
Speaker
And they can say, then you usually hear, yeah, but we're not going to pay for that. We can't afford that. I'm like, no, no, no. That's on me. But what I need you to do is that I need your same client comments on the longer version.
00:33:22
Speaker
And I also, I need you to respect that as your cut. But I also need, I'll do it for free, but I need you to put some marketing money into it. Wouldn't it be great if this is on your official site somewhere? Because
00:33:38
Speaker
then I can grow as a director and I can also grow your brand as a brand because it's going to be a beautiful brand film. Surely enough, it's not going to be on TV or whatever. But what could be fun is if it's online and has a little online life. And if we're really lucky, it will be cool as a cinema version. And they usually say, well, let's think about whatever. And then you shoot your thing and you have all these extra scenes that
00:34:05
Speaker
is for brand. You talk about the brand. No, no, we have budgeted for this. You don't have to worry. You will get your house. You will get the six-second versions. You will get all that juice. And that's the focus. But I also focus on this other thing. That's just smart scheduling. And then in the edit, you show them this beautiful, big, bold vision you have. And you're like, look, this is your brand. You should be proud of this. And it's nothing out of the ordinary. Look, I think making a director's cut
00:34:35
Speaker
for the sake of being longer than a thirty sucks you should always make your cut the shorter the better i hate when i see a director's cut that is six minutes just because someone wants to do a six minute short it could easily be reductive to three for example so
00:34:54
Speaker
Give them a short sweet beautiful little product that you can that you can like I need comments on this What do you say and very rarely in my experience? They say get I take it out get it out of the room like we don't want to see it that I've never have that experience usually what I hear is I
00:35:12
Speaker
Oh, we would love that online. Maybe we can. Oh, cool. Can we add a little bit more car or can we add a little bit more phone? And then you say, of course, it's your thing. Let's add a little bit of phone. Let's build a terrace or let's build a new kitchen. That's fine.
00:35:28
Speaker
knowing that you can control that, you know, and then you don't end up with a director's cut because we usually the problem is that you or like directors show them the 30s and the six second cuts. And then they say, all right, bye. And then they do, they spend two and a half months on a director's cut that they release on Instagram. And everyone's like, Oh, cool. Like, I don't know to what usage other than your Instagram profile is this is who's this for? Okay.
00:35:56
Speaker
And yeah, so it's about defining the actual job, I think. That's why I don't do director's cuts necessarily. I mean, this is an awesome piece of advice. So if on their sixes and fifteens and thirties, they have debatably bad VO, bad music, bad choices. Not talking at all about anything we're working on. No, no, no. There are times where certain decisions have to be made that are based on specific agendas or need to
00:36:24
Speaker
communicate a specific thing, but that doesn't necessarily align perfectly with selling the best piece of film or piece of emotional content. So let's say you have a 6 or a 15 that has choices you may not be happy with or may not align with this longer piece. How do you navigate?
00:36:44
Speaker
In my experience, when they have their house, usually the comments that come from for the long versions are usually very simple because they know that who cares if 2,000 people sees this or if a million people sees this. That's not what I can go back to my marketing director with is these short things. Then as a surprise, I can show a long film if I want to, but as a surprise, I have this other treat.
00:37:13
Speaker
And I've experienced clients that says they say, thank you, but we have no usage for this. And that's when I decide to, in collaboration with an agency, that's when I decide to, I'm like, is it okay if I, cause this is cool for me. They like, usually yes. Right. But, but rarely does a client say no to a, to something free. And I think Robert, to answer your question, that's because you know, they're basic needs for the other thing. Uh,
00:37:43
Speaker
And then you need to be smart because the director's cut can't be a complete different campaign. It needs to stay in the line because otherwise what I'd say to young directors specifically sometimes is to like if you want to explore something
00:38:04
Speaker
that no one understands and they go explore it through music videos or through your art projects. Don't take a client that pays a lot of money and risk a lot of things to hire you. Don't take their time to
00:38:19
Speaker
show off that you can stay on one shot for 15 and a half minutes. They don't think that's cool. No one actually does. So you have to be smart there, I suppose.
Advice for Young Directors
00:38:32
Speaker
This is great. We're cooking in a great way. Yeah. Looking back at the start of your journey as a director, do you have any tips for your past self that you wish you knew then that you know now? Yes, I do. I wish I didn't respect
00:38:49
Speaker
more senior opinions the way I did. Just because someone's senior, whether it's another director or whatever, whoever it is, an agency, just because they've been around more doesn't mean their opinion is better. Yeah. I felt sometimes
00:39:13
Speaker
a couple of years ago that I listened to the senior opinions a bit too much. I thought they were better than my opinions because they would know better. But that's just simply not true. I especially learned that when I made my first short film when I was 19 called Vatan. It was a love story in a swimming pool. And in the script, I had a bunch of very
00:39:40
Speaker
sexually explicit scenes that I, as a 19-year-old boy, felt the need to explore through my art. But on a script level, senior comments were, you should remove those. And I hear as an adult reading a 19-year-old script that you can have those because it's a bit embarrassing as an adult to read
00:40:07
Speaker
a 19 year old sexual fantasies maybe and why now and why stuff like that. So I remove them. And the film turned out fine. But as now as a filmmaker, as an adult, I wish I kept them there. Because they would have said something about me at that time, how I how I explored
00:40:31
Speaker
sexual content with the camera, as a storyteller, what would that feel and how I could grow from there. So I miss those things. And that's just one example of when a senior comment could actually, in the long run, destroy. Maybe they were right. Who knows, right? We never shot those things. And most likely, they were right. But that's beside the point.
00:40:59
Speaker
The point is, as a young adventurer, you need to take different paths sometimes and new and unexplored paths because you don't know what you don't know and that's fucking beautiful. So usually if I give comments on a script or whatever now, if I read something that embarrasses me a little bit that I should probably as a filmmaker, as an adult give notes on,
00:41:28
Speaker
I think again, I'm like, all right, I have no idea what you want to do there. Like I have literally, I don't understand that thing, but I love that. I don't understand that thing. So yeah, to my younger self, I would say, just, just say, fuck off a little bit more because so much stuff that you just need to shoot just because you want to shoot them because
00:41:52
Speaker
You don't have a reason for it. You just want to shoot them because it's fun and it's weird and it's beautiful. I mean, you can look at like we all do, I suppose, look up tremendously to Paul Thomas Anderson. And he made a Boogie Nights when he was 21, right? And it's such as an adult filmmaker and as an adult generally, it's such a flawed film.
00:42:15
Speaker
If you think about it, it's about a guy with a big dick in the movie industry. I mean, listen to the absurdity of that film. And of course, he has a mother who doesn't care about him. And of course, you know, like, of course he's on drugs. And of course, I mean, because
00:42:35
Speaker
It's a 21 year old who wrote it. That's what it was. That's exactly how it is to be a 21 year old. And imagine him being like, yeah, we should probably make his dick normal sized and maybe we shouldn't.
00:42:49
Speaker
Yeah, maybe we should take it away. Yeah, maybe his mother should be loving because the truth is mothers are always loving, even if they're yelling or whatever. Like, it wouldn't have been boogey nights, for goodness sake, you know? He said on record something that I loved, which is, you know, Magnolia was kind of like a healing film for him, right? He was coming out of a lot of pain and
00:43:07
Speaker
personal, personal experience in that and says that now when he looks back at it, he would cut that film down. I've heard that too, but that's beautiful. There's a, without speaking too much on PTA, but I've always loved that to kind of piggyback on this young filmmaker ideas. There's always a scene in Heart 8 that kind of strikes me, which is like when he lights a match and when he's lighting the match is like pants, somehow kind of.
00:43:33
Speaker
get lit on fire as well. It's like a small kind of throwaway cutaway type of moment scene that you could tell a very young person thought that was funny or thought that was interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that beautiful? I think it's
00:43:49
Speaker
It's fantastic that you can look back. If you don't censor yourself with senior comments, you can look back at those things, wanting to cut this, cut Magnolia shorter, but you, you can't now. You were 30, you were 28 or whatever when, yeah, he's not allowed to cut it shorter, but of course, we all know Magnolia would have been in such a better film if it was half an hour shorter. We all know the mid part is just, I think,
00:44:16
Speaker
He has one score that goes on for 45 minutes. And it's clearly a young guy on coke that did it, which is fine. That's great. That's beautiful. But as a 55-year-old, super senior filmmaker, he can see that and he can be like, yeah, you should cut it because it's embarrassing.
00:44:37
Speaker
I don't even think it comes down to age, but I think what it comes down to is embracing where you're at in the journey because what you don't know is actually the power.
00:44:48
Speaker
And it's actually something Robert and I have sort of started to talk about, which is like just sort of surrendering to the fact that we're just, we don't know. We don't understand. We don't know. You just don't know. And it's beautiful. Can you imagine when you don't know, where do you place the camera? I think just think about that notion. We have to place the camera somewhere. When you don't know,
00:45:11
Speaker
Where the fuck do you place the camera and i think that's like that's fun that's fantastic but Spielberg and Scorsese it's not taxi driver anymore you know i value it as a senior filmmaker but it doesn't inspire me.
00:45:27
Speaker
because he didn't know how to shoot the taxi necessarily. And it's something unbelievably pure and beautiful about not knowing where to place the camera, you know? I love this. So good. This is excellent. Thank you so much, Nicholas. Thank you, Nicholas. This was fantastic. Not for sure. Thank you. And let's get together for dinner soon. This episode was sponsored by some such cartel edit Bonaparte Unstudios and Supreme Music. Special thanks to our producer, Joe Yardley, and the entire team at YDA.
00:45:57
Speaker
The Young Doctors Award is in its 26th Eurocan and is the biggest fringe festival to exclusively promote the debut of directing talent in the commercial, music video and short form space.