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Episode 2 - Yuan Yuan - A Student’s Path
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Born in Wuhan, China, Yuan Yuan is a Chinese filmmaker and recent NYU film school graduate whose journey as a student writer-director has garnered awards, grants, and accolades from all corners of the globe. Yuan Yuan sat down with hosts King She to discuss her journey as a director working primarily through the support of academic and festival institutions, pivoting from journalism to narrative filmmaking, and the process of selecting collaborators to be in a space of trust when shooting. Her short film Heading South won Jury Prize at Hong Kong International Film Festival, and Best Student Film at DGA Awards, Palm Springs and Aspen ShortFests, and the Young Director Award. She’s currently developing her first feature, Late Spring with support from the Sundance Writers & Directors labs.
Episode Mentions:
DGA Best Student Film
Sundance Director Lab
Heading South
Spike Lee
Fala Chen
Robert Bresson
This episode is sponsored by Somesuch, Supreme Music, Bonaparte Films, UN.STUDIOS, and Cartel.
Recommended
Transcript
From Journalism to Film
00:00:01
Speaker
I never really thought about directing before when I was in college. I was passionate to pursue journalism school. So through working in a TV station in Shanghai, I realized we go into somewhere, the news already happened. We just have to redo it. So I was thinking if I'm making something not real, maybe I'll just go to make something really fake, like narrative.
00:00:25
Speaker
You're listening to the Young Directors Award podcast. We're King Xi and we're your hosts. And this is episode two of Juan Juan.
00:00:36
Speaker
So here's a quick bio on Wan Wan before we jump in the conversation. She is a Chinese writer-director who recently finished NYU grad school for film. Her films have been celebrated on the festival circuit, including Best Student Short Film at the DGA. And she's currently developing her first feature, which was selected by the Sundance screenwriter and director's labs. Here we go. Wan Wan.
Female Directors in China
00:00:56
Speaker
We were saying that most Chinese female directors come from actor backgrounds. Can you explain that a little bit more? Sure. A lot of the female directors I love, they came from the acting background and they used to be very famous actress. They're really good at acting. And when they switch directing,
00:01:17
Speaker
They're really successful, and they have a lot of resources they need. Of course, it's still going to be very hard for them. But I rarely see someone to be successful in China besides a few well-known art house directors in Hong Kong who won awards in Cannes before.
00:01:38
Speaker
In total, there are really very few female directors. Majority of them has this really good acting background, which is also very inspiring. But I think for me, I really love to see more and more female directors, not only from like film school background, from commercial music video background, from writing background.
00:01:57
Speaker
I feel like the more female maker we saw as a young girl, the more we know, oh, there are people doing this and we can do it. We need more models as women to see that it's possible to
Discovering the Directing Voice
00:02:11
Speaker
do it. Did you feel that the institution of film school was a better path for you versus trying to maybe work in short form in other ways, whether that's music videos or commercials?
00:02:21
Speaker
Definitely, I have to say film school really helped me a lot, discovering my voice, finding communities. I spent this a few years to just not work, study full-time about what I'm really interested in. But I don't think film school is an
00:02:38
Speaker
like the necessary path towards directing or writing. But for me, I never really had a really good art education back in China when I was a little. Both my parents, they're not in the film industry or even they're not related with art. So for me, film school is really helpful for me. Just relearn everything I know from zero to rebuild the structure of film language to write a screenplay from beginning again.
Journey from Shadow Writer to Director
00:03:08
Speaker
You were saying that you worked as a shadow writer and then decided to be an AD. I thought that was so interesting.
00:03:15
Speaker
I never really thought about directing before when I was in college. I studied in a theater school, a well-known theater school in Shanghai called Shanghai Theater Academy. A majority of the students, they have two paths. One going to film, TV industry. The other path is going to news, television news. I was actually passionate to pursue journalism at that moment.
00:03:41
Speaker
And then I dreamed to be like a virgin, female virgin. And when I was intern in my third year, and I realized it's never going to happen, the industry wasn't something I imagined when I was in high school. Through working in a TV station in Shanghai, I realized, oh no, this is not something I really like.
00:04:02
Speaker
It's kind of boring to me, especially the station I was intern. A lot of the news was not like the live news. They were like, we're going to somewhere. The news already happened. We just have to redo it. And I was thinking, if I'm making something not real, maybe I'll just go to make something really fake, which is like
00:04:23
Speaker
narrative. So that's how I decided to switch to TV and film. So I started to intern in TV sets on TV sets and started to assist four directors. Was that switch a better experience? Unfortunately, the experience wasn't as I imagined as well. The set wasn't well organized. I was
00:04:44
Speaker
so passionate. And then the reality makes me feel like nobody really cares about what they're making. The TV show I was working at was shitty. Everyone is trying to guilt trip each other, blaming each other. So I was like, oh no, this is how they do it. So I stopped working on set and then became a writer. I felt like the writing part may be more pure.
00:05:08
Speaker
in China, so I start to find opportunities to write and then work for the big writer to be a shadow writer. Among other shadow writers, I find out that the way you can recognize this is to do this for years until this writer gives you a credit or you are recommended to other directors or writers.
Authenticity in Filmmaking
00:05:31
Speaker
So at this moment, I got a recommendation to a rising director who is directing big budget movies in China, who look for assistant, who is bilingual, who can help with the script development. So I felt like maybe this will be a good opportunity for me to go back to production. And at the same time, working on screenwriting as well. So from working for that director, I started to switch into assistant directing.
00:06:00
Speaker
And that's how I got back to production. It's so interesting, because you said that you came from a journalism background. That level of fakeness, you're like, why not just do film? Which I think is hilarious. I kind of had a similar experience as well, working as journalism. Yeah. We should talk more. We'll talk more. But that's exactly how I ended up in film. I was like, well, if we're dealing with unreality anyway,
00:06:27
Speaker
So happy to appear. The reason I'm mentioning that is because I feel that from heading south there was a real strong, almost journalistic, but really anthropological approach. And you really feel the way those characters and that story feels, that you knew them really, really deeply and deep down. Where does that type of writing and intimacy of knowledge towards your characters and story come from?
Creating 'Heading South'
00:06:53
Speaker
Oh, it's so nice to hear you say that, but for having sauce, the story was based on my childhood memory when I was five years old. I remember I visited my dad and meet my new mom there. What I remembered was images, like faces, laughter, that's all. And I really hope I can rebuild the memory to tell a story about a girl who has to like struggling between two families to be the bridge between them.
00:07:22
Speaker
Yeah, you said it was like a very personal film based on childhood memory. And I showed you the film to your parents either, I didn't think, right? Yeah, like what I said before, the film wasn't taking place in Mongolia, but the stories really happened to me. Even the uncle's name are real. I used their last name. I do remember who was sitting in the dinner scene when I was little.
00:07:48
Speaker
I never really thought about showing the film to my family when I was writing it, when I was making it. I just want to make something I feel connected deeply. I want to share it to the world. Before the pandemic, I went back to China. I set up the computer and tried to show it to my father, my stepbrother, the family. And very interestingly, my father.
00:08:08
Speaker
After the first scene, my father signed up and said he has something he needs to deal with and left. I don't know if he since was the film gonna be about, but he never really finished the film. He had no idea what happened next. For my mother, I never dared to show her. I felt like she would be angry with my father again. Then there would be a list argument. So I don't think I'm gonna show my mother until it's ready. But yeah, that's how the film is to my family.
00:08:37
Speaker
And was Spike Lee one of the people that encouraged you to write it? I think you had told me last time we spoke that he said, write what you know had a huge impact on you at some point. He's definitely an amazing master now alive. What he saw was from a class he was teaching, not like literally for my product. He was telling all my classmates that I would recommend you guys to write what you know so that you will save time because you write characters, you know, to start.
00:09:06
Speaker
And I agree. Even with my first feature, there are characters I think I already know, but working on it, I had to do a lot of research. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I'll just comment on one last thing about heading south. The actress that plays the mom was just outstanding.
00:09:24
Speaker
or not for the mom, but thank you. The same mom. Yeah, the actress, her name is Fala Chen. We were extremely lucky to get her. She saw a post online, and she's interested in the stepmother's role. The role is not big, as you can see in the film, but she really connects to the story and the character. And at the beginning, I was even worried because she was a famous actress.
00:09:53
Speaker
in Hong Kong and China.
00:09:55
Speaker
before she studied in America and we are like student film, low-budget shooting in Mongolia. How could we have someone like her to work with us? But she never like complained about the coldness. She flew herself from New York to China and then take another flight because it's a really far place where we should, you have to take two flights to go there and then
00:10:23
Speaker
take like two or three hours drive to the location. But she was super nice and friendly and professional. Just gave me a lot of confidence to work with established actors in the future that they're not like that scary. They're very professional. And then she got into some Marvel films right after. Yes.
00:10:45
Speaker
Yeah, that was shocking. When we were in post-production, she got the Marvel Shang-Chi, and she was also in other TV shows. I think she will be more successful in the future, I believe.
00:10:59
Speaker
And so Heading South was the film that you did while you were already matriculated at NYU, right? That's my second year of film at NYU.
Challenges in Filmmaking
00:11:08
Speaker
This is exciting to us. You know, you study in theater, you then work in production, you work as an AD, you then transition into being a writer, and then you go to grad school. And second year of grad school, you make a short film that essentially gets a lot of attention for you.
00:11:22
Speaker
Thank you. I feel I'm really blessed. I never really thought the film can go to a lot of festivals. I didn't even know how to submit to festivals. We missed a lot of deadlines at the beginning. Last time we spoke, it was fantastic to hear you talking about how you basically made every decision that you possibly could make that made the film complex and difficult to accomplish.
00:11:46
Speaker
I decided to go with a child actor, animals, motorcycles. Can you tell us about that? There are a lot of difficulties for heading south. This was the first time we are allowed to shoot internationally and but still needs to be covered by the school insurance, which is very strict. There are a lot of rules related with animals, related motorcycle cars, related with child actors.
00:12:12
Speaker
And even though we're far from U.S., we still need to follow all those rules. So passing the insurance was the big first challenge. It's like a long discussion. Meet endless meetings with the school representatives to talk about how I'm going to make the film.
00:12:29
Speaker
sending them photos of the electricity charge, or sending them how we're going to film the animal scene. So that's the differences between making movies there and making movies in the US. Another challenge is the coldness. In Mongolia, in November, minus 30 to 40 Celsius degree, we have some behind-the-scenes photos like my AD's eyelash is all frozen.
00:12:54
Speaker
was as cold as that and then like the crew members were freezing even though I told them to wear as many as possible wear all your clothes but some people still wear a sleeper. Relying on filmmaker will is a big part of the path of a filmmaker.
00:13:12
Speaker
a little bit of like filmmaker superpower. Did you raise money to make that film? How did you get the resources? Yeah, we did fundraising both in China and the US. We got like a few thousand from the US majority of the rest of the budget in China.
00:13:30
Speaker
So I felt like it's not me that the whole film is blessed and the film has its life. I believe it's on its own now and I hope it will live longer and be watched by more people. That the film has its own life and it's blessed. That's really interesting because Robert and I were just chatting about some of the different orbits that you've spoken about.
00:13:51
Speaker
grants and labs and trying to raise funding. It feels like you're sending it out into the ether and you never know whether you're going to get something back or not. How do you make sure your work is getting seen or noticed or supported in those forums?
00:14:06
Speaker
I have no idea, to be honest. I just do my work, submit as many places as possible to see who will give me opportunity. That's why I feel like I am blind, so I'm lucky because I don't want to say you work hard.
00:14:23
Speaker
And then you will get recognized. I feel it's unfair to say because I don't think we're not the only one in control. What we can do is just to be focused, do what you think you need to do. It's really a lot of things out of control. Sometimes I feel sad because there are some friends, film I really love, but they don't get recognition.
00:14:45
Speaker
they all get rejections and really think it's an amazing film. So I feel like there is luck even though sometimes we try to ignore that part but there is. We will feel like more focused in what we can do and then maybe we can do it better because we know we're good and that's one thing. And another thing I felt like music, video, and commercials
00:15:10
Speaker
Film festivals usually, for young directors, for art, cinema, they give the films got selected a lot of price, release, recognition. But if you're not getting in them, it's so easy to feel like I'm not good. It's interesting because so much of the festival game can feel like variants. You have to almost have a baseline of self-belief.
00:15:30
Speaker
For example, even An-Li, he wrote a bunch of scripts before he got his first film made. He's not like a lot of young directors now, can be going to labs and then they got their first feature made in one or two years. So there are people who are late bloomers, if we say so. Maybe we just need to do it like...
00:15:52
Speaker
many years until it can get made. Everyone has their different path. That's something I really hope I can share with friends, people who feel depressed because of this atmosphere. And I feel like sometimes it could be toxic, not influenced by that kind of energy.
00:16:11
Speaker
You're now in grad school, so you make a few short films. The short films find success in film festivals. And then now you've been accepted to a number of the Sundance labs to develop a feature. Talk to us a little bit about that path. Like, what is it actually, what is the experience of somebody in film school making a short now being accepted into something like a lab at
Submitting to Sundance
00:16:34
Speaker
Sundance?
00:16:34
Speaker
So first of all, I graduated last year and got into Sundance last year, got into the writer's lab right before I graduated. That was also something I never imagined. I know people who applied many years and then they get in. You never know if they can support a Chinese story like mine, if the script is ready for the lab.
00:16:58
Speaker
After the lab experience, I realized they're really looking for projects they're passionate about or filmmakers they're passionate about. Your project doesn't need to be ready to go. Otherwise, you don't really need a lab. You need like a financier producer.
00:17:13
Speaker
So I would say when I was submitting to the lab, I just tried to use a deadline to finish the draft. So I never really thought I can get in, I just want to get it done.
Leveraging Film Labs
00:17:25
Speaker
So I would suggest if people are interested to get lab support, just submit whatever you have and try to finish it. And then let them decide, similar to festivals, let them decide if they are good or not.
00:17:38
Speaker
I think you know it's not ready, so even if you get rejected, it's fine. You can submit next year since so many people keep submitting to labs. So for me, I was surprised. I got in, then I realized I need to work even harder because the script was kind of early. Once you get in the lab, there are a lot of agendas you need to
00:18:00
Speaker
catch on deadlines, even more deadlines, so I nearly work every day on the project. Even today, even now, I'm constantly rewriting the script, getting feedbacks from friends. Yeah, it's not an easy path. Maybe it's easier to just find the money and then make it, but maybe the script wasn't ready, which leads to a bad movie. That's something we don't want. I would say if you have life support, definitely go.
00:18:28
Speaker
But if not, don't worry, you can still get your film made. A lot of people, a lot of directors, they never really been through labs. But if you don't have money, lab definitely helps a lot. I love this. I love the idea of using the deadline of a festival or a lab as a young filmmaker as the thing that helps you actually finish projects with the upside being, well, maybe they'll accept my project.
00:18:51
Speaker
It's a fun little kind of target to give yourself. That's what we did with our film last year for YDA. We gave ourselves the deadline of finishing it. I think we like literally finished it like an hour before we had to upload it. Wow.
00:19:08
Speaker
I'm like, okay, here it goes. Let's see what happens. And honestly, that was like the first time that we've ever sort of submitted something into the ether like that and had anything come back. Without that line, I feel like it's very easy to make the production longer.
00:19:25
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. You're talking about time management. Which very few filmmakers seem to have that skill set. I guess I was just kind of interested in where we were in the process. You know, what's interesting to us is we've been speaking to a lot of directors who are at different phases in their career. And so you're one of the really exciting directors that we're speaking to who is kind of on the precipice of starting their career.
00:19:48
Speaker
beginning your first feature, but I guess if you could, if it was even something that you think of, but how do you see your next few years as a filmmaker, as a director? Thank you. I also would love to hear your advice since you guys are amazing filmmakers. You also interviewed a lot of young directors.
00:20:06
Speaker
For now, I'm hoping while preparing my first feature, make a living as a director, directing music videos or commercials. So far, I got support from the narrative set. I don't know how to start a career in the commercial or music video industry. I feel like they're very separate. But my partner is a very talented cinematographer.
00:20:30
Speaker
And from him, that's also how I know YDA. I realized there are a lot of good opportunities in the commercial industry. They have a lot of high budget that you can really try things out. The visuals are so cool. They have really good performances. They work with amazing artists and clients. There are a lot of things I feel like would be an amazing balance. Well,
00:20:54
Speaker
we are making our own project since for narrative directors, I feel like it took years to make our first feature and then it took even longer to make a really good second one among those three to like six years. How would you make a living? That's the question I constantly asking my friends and hearing their advice. No, for sure. I think we both had similar concerns and we ended up sort of developing other trades
00:21:24
Speaker
As we were trying to become directors, we also became editors and producers. Those positions seemed a bit easier to make a living on, I think. And not even so much easier, but more singular in their ask of what your role was as well. I think the multiplicity of what you need to carry as a director can be daunting.
00:21:45
Speaker
I thought this was really funny. We've been chatting to a lot of directors about how they work with collaborators. And you mentioned last time we spoke, you were like, I'm a total control freak. Can you explain on that? Is that a specific style that you've developed between the couple of short films you've done? Or what do you mean by that exactly?
00:22:07
Speaker
I feel like I am a total control freak, but I make really good decisions when I'm working with other people.
Control in Filmmaking
00:22:15
Speaker
I would choose people I really love who are a good fit for the project, so I don't need to struggle a lot later. I care a lot about color, about framing.
00:22:25
Speaker
about music and sound, which I have to make sure people who are working on my film are people I can trust, who could really understand what kind of film we're making, the emotion behind it. So choosing crew members was the first big step I would have to make sure no matter who recommend
00:22:45
Speaker
the person I will talk a bunch of times to make sure we're on the same page. We will watch movies together, reference together to make sure what we're doing is matched, what we're trying to do. And what I'm trying to do as a control freak is to make sure it's getting closer to what we're trying to achieve. But I feel like at this part in production, I'm going to be the person who
00:23:10
Speaker
trying to compromise as least as possible. When I have to compromise, I will. But I won't when I can push for more, one more take, push for a change. And in post-production, definitely I'm going to try if there's any new ideas. I'm never going to let it just flip away. I have to try, hear it, see it. No matter if it's a sound idea or an editing idea, I definitely going to see how it flows and decide if I want it or not.
00:23:40
Speaker
Given that you're also an editor, what do you gain from working with a co-editor on films? Working with co-editor, working with someone who can support me, who is not lazy, who is willing to explore, to respect the footage, who respect editing as like a way of an unknown.
00:23:58
Speaker
that you will be able to find new things out of what we already have is kind of essential to me. And for sound as well, I feel sound really at the depth of film. I feel like Robert Bresson keeps saying that sound is the 3D, like it determines the depth of the image, not the image determines the depth of a film. If you have really good sound designs, you don't necessarily need the music.
00:24:24
Speaker
It's already there. There are a lot of decisions in that. I love being challenged as well. If it's a really good idea, definitely I would give up mine to embrace the new one. That's how I feel like it's a collaboration. We make the film together. It's not like a film I make on my own. That's going to be boring. We couldn't agree with you more. We talk about sound all the time.
00:24:48
Speaker
I think that's like a very underexplored area in a lot of films. And when you see it as well done, as in yours, you get a whole other level of emotionality and feeling. I think the sound in some ways more important than the image, but I won't say that on the record. There's two other topics really quickly. You had told me that you were not into covering a scene.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah, I used to. And then since I also edit my film and I realized when I look at my footage, you got tons of footage. And then if you have a lot of courage, then there will be like millions of ways to edit a scene, which means you leave your directing decision to an editor, which means I'm being lazy.
00:25:35
Speaker
on set, trying to cover everything I have. That's something I'm trying to avoid doing now. Just be prepared, be alert on set. You can get coverage, but not recording from every angle. What I'm trying to do is get a really clear sense of what kind of shots you need. And then if you really need the coverage,
00:25:55
Speaker
you got it. If not, then I will just not do it. The thing I'm worried about is that you don't have time for what you already designed. The shot what you already designed is not good enough. Each shot gets less time. The recovery shot is not good enough. And you have to find new ways to solve the new problem.
00:26:14
Speaker
Of course. And are you concerned at all with any kind of censorship or anything like that when you're making your films?
00:26:44
Speaker
filmmakers. For future film, we do need to censor because we need to be responsible for investors. If they want to get a box office in China, we need to pass the censorship. For my first feature, luckily so far, I don't think it's sensitive. It's a story about a Chinese mother looking for her daughter in New York. It's a mother-daughter relationship, not really political.
00:27:13
Speaker
One of the things we like to do when we wrap up the interview is we like to ask a filmmaker if you could go back in time to when you started and give yourself a piece of
Advice for New Filmmakers
00:27:23
Speaker
advice. What would that advice be? I would say drink nice coffee and brush your teeth every day.
00:27:32
Speaker
Oh my God, I love this. Drink less coffee and brush your teeth every day. Were you now brushing your teeth every day? I do, but sometimes when you were overnight shooting, it's really not like a normal person's schedule. It's kind of crazy.
00:27:48
Speaker
And I ate a lot of drunk food. Really, my house was declining crazily when I became a director. I'm joking. I would say, keep going. I would tell myself, keep going. You should make more films. I would say that. But you have kept going. It sounds like you already spoke to yourself. I'm good. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
00:28:15
Speaker
Thank you for your time. This episode was sponsored by some such cartel edit Bonaparte Unstudios and Supreme Music. Special thanks to our producer Joe Yardley and the entire team at YDA. The Undarches Award is in its 26th year at Cannes and is the biggest fringe festival to exclusively promote the debut of directing talent in the commercial, music video and short form space.