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Thoughts on Navigating Mental Health as Christians
82 Plays1 year ago
In today's episode, Pastor Ridley Barron and Kyle Hess dive into the complex topic of navigating mental health as Christians. From discussing the interconnectedness of physical, mental, and spiritual well-being to addressing the increasing cultural acceptance of mental health challenges, they offer practical and biblical insights. Join them as they emphasize the importance of balancing science, logic, and scripture in evaluating topics tough topics while highlighting the valuable role of mental health professionals. Get ready for an enlightening discussion that explores the integration of spiritual, mental, and physical aspects of our lives.
Timestamps:
05:55 Bible and science align in confirming truth.
12:29 Transform your thinking with renewed mind.
14:08 Obedience to creator nurtures the spirit's growth.
18:34 Comedian Russell Brand finds peace in God.
19:58 Younger generation more open to mental health.
24:05 New doctors prioritize symptoms over finding causes.
28:00 Importance of including professionals in mental health.
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Transcript
Introduction and Mental Health Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the Grove Hill Church podcast. I'm sitting here with Pastor Ridley Barron and Kyle who just preached a fantastic sermon on depression. And honestly, if you haven't listened to the sermon yet, go to the last episode and listen to it because it's one of the best takes I've heard on depression in a long time because of your experience, Kyle. And here we're not going to usually take this podcast to dive into a particular angle, but I invited Ridley on here too because we'd like to kind of explore a number of
00:00:29
Speaker
Little things regarding to mental health and how christian should be navigating it because when you start to talk about mental health, there's all these little areas So I wanted to kick it off with a question to both of you. I feel like in today's world We're all more educated on more educated on mental health than we've ever been before yet. Things are more confusing
00:00:50
Speaker
than they've ever been before i know as i mean we talked about this last week as a market i read a lot of books on psychology but even as i talk to others all the time they're like oh yeah i read that psychology book this pop psychology book i've been watch this youtuber on psychology i've seen the social post hey did you know that this stat this research came out that.
00:01:08
Speaker
And it's like everybody's reading about it. Yet there's so much unknown still about how we are the way we are. As a Christian, how should we be navigating all this information when it comes to how we think, how we behave, why we are the way we are?
Understanding Mental Illness Misconceptions
00:01:25
Speaker
I think one of the things that we have to acknowledge right off the bat that we have a problem within our culture is we have too much information from self-declared professionals. People who take their experience and assume that it applies to everybody else and so they go on to some social media and declare this is the way things are and a thousand people like it and pass it on and suddenly it's become fact and it's not necessarily true. And so what that has allowed us to do is become over informed with
00:01:53
Speaker
Dare i say misinformation i know that's a catch phrase these days and so there's a lot of misperceptions about what really qualifies as mental illness.
00:02:03
Speaker
And, um, and I thought Cal did a fantastic job addressing this part of depression and understanding the difference between having emotions related to something versus having a state of mind that is that. So for instance, with depression, you can have depressed moments. You can have sad feelings that does not make you depressed. Depressed is a word used to describe the characterization of your life for a long extended period of time and for the intensity.
00:02:30
Speaker
of that feeling. So Kyle did a great job addressing that Sunday. I appreciate that. And one thing that I think we both said before, you kind of said it before your sermon on anxiety and I said it before depression is that though everybody has an opinion.
00:02:45
Speaker
Every author has an opinion. The internet has an opinion. And on some of these subjects, the church has taken a backseat and for some reason considered a taboo subject. I don't ever want to say suicide in church or depression in church because we have Jesus and he provides all joy we need, right? Sometimes we need that all the time. We need that practical biblical advice to pull us out of those certain positions. And so
00:03:11
Speaker
Yeah, there's great resources, great books if you're sticking with Christian authors.
Biblical vs. Clinical Counseling
00:03:16
Speaker
But we have more than we need, more than we can even understand in scripture itself. And I don't think we've done an amazing job as a church directly addressing it. Yeah, I would agree with that. Before we started pushing record, I noticed that
00:03:33
Speaker
There's a caveat given, and for a good reason, about biblical counseling versus just counseling by professionals who are clinically certified and all that kind of stuff. It's funny because I find that biblical counseling has been going on since Christ. It has been an important aspect and covers a wide variety of things, and I think is even more relevant than what a lot of psychologists would actually have to offer, depending on how
00:04:03
Speaker
how close they actually stick to a biblical worldview or not. I know both of you are practicing in counseling and counsel others regularly. My question for you is, is that something that others should be looking at when they're reading about psychology and looking at psychology, whether it's coming from a biblical background or not?
00:04:25
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Because here's the thing. At Grove Hill Church, we practice, we believe that the Bible is the final word on truth. If you want to know truth, it has to line up with Scripture. If it conforms to Scripture, then it's truth. If it does not conform to Scripture, it's not truth. And so that sounds simple, it sounds simplistic, but that's the best way to begin to judge whether or not the wisdom you're gaining is wisdom of the world versus the wisdom that comes from the one who created us.
00:04:50
Speaker
And I think if you start with a counselor who says right off the bat, I am a biblical counselor. I think we're going to ground what we do in the word of God. Then you got a real good chance of finding somebody who's going to give you some real help.
00:05:01
Speaker
I agree with that and it doesn't mean that we cross out mental health professionals at all because I have a real close friend who's a psychologist and trained and licensed therapist and all these things and I had conversations with her and the things that she was saying and the knowledge she has about the process of the human brain and what it does.
00:05:22
Speaker
the science behind it was right in line with the Bible. And so she's coming from one area, I'm coming from another area, and we're meeting in the middle going, man, this is very beneficial for both of us to understand that the Bible talks about renewing of your mind and that you're not, depression is not a life sentence. It's just something that you have to process through and get through. So it's beneficial to know, we just go back to what Ridley said, you got to know the truth. And once you know the truth,
00:05:51
Speaker
And you can use some resources around that to understand more about the truth. You know, one of the things I think that becomes a hindrance for many churches is that we believe that the Bible and science don't belong in the same conversation.
Integrating Science and Scripture
00:06:06
Speaker
But the reality is, as we continue to get wiser, as mankind becomes more educated, what we're learning is that the Bible is not confirmed by science. Science is confirmed by the Bible, you know?
00:06:19
Speaker
The more we learn about the mind, the more we go, you know what? God knew exactly what he was talking about when he said that the mind controls the way we act, that when the Bible talks in Proverbs 4.23 about guarding your heart because it's the wellspring of life. Well, it is. It's these emotions that come from the seed of our being. And so it kind of gets me excited every time I see some new, real, true scientific discovery comes out that just is confirmed about everything the Bible has said for 2000 years.
00:06:46
Speaker
What do you do when science doesn't align with the Bible? And you have a young couple has a kid and someone influential in their life is telling them, well, this kid's behaving this way because science proves that X and it's something maybe unbiblical, maybe it's a gender thing, maybe.
00:07:04
Speaker
maybe it's something less. You never get that. I believe there's science or science, I will say, and then logic. We have to use our brain. We could say science says something about a young man who's thinking that he's a female or male.
00:07:22
Speaker
But we have to look at logic and then bounce it off the truth of God's word and how he designed us as people. And we could disprove science with scripture. And I say science, I mean, science, you know, right? But you have to you have to use discernment as God gave you the brain to really think things logically. And, you know, a puzzle piece only fits together one way and we can't force it to work another way.
00:07:46
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree 100%. We just don't have permission to rewrite truth. We don't have permission to rewrite facts. I was just before we came online reading an article where this woman, Christian woman, has been invited to some big woman's event and they're protesting against it because she doesn't acknowledge that transgender women are women.
00:08:05
Speaker
Do you hear the illogical reasoning behind that statement? Well, of course they don't because they're not. You can't just change 4,000 years of science and history because people want to change opinions. So you kind of keep going back to this idea. If it aligns with the scripture, then you can have confidence in it. Now you have to be real careful in approaching that with people. You mentioned young couples that are coming to you for suggestions and for guidelines and stuff like that. You had to be real careful because there's a lot of, um,
00:08:35
Speaker
weight given to, a lot of trust given to a guy who's got a certificate on his wall that says he's been through 10 years of education and best schools that we recognize and go, okay, well, surely he's not crazy. No, they're not crazy, but I think sometimes they are misdirected in their thinking.
00:08:54
Speaker
Let's be honest, the enemy, Satan, is very deceptive, and he's misdirected an entire field of study, science, for years. And science can be manipulated. Yes.
00:09:06
Speaker
And we're seeing that more and more. I mean, you look at the subject even, I know we're getting way off course here, but you look at the subject subject of climate change. Just recently, there have been all kinds of revelations now that scientists were, uh, we're doing it because they got funding to support what they believed. Are they twisted the numbers? And now this big study out of England, they're admitting that they didn't have the actual numbers. They just filled in numbers to make it look like this. So, I mean, you know,
00:09:31
Speaker
You gotta, you gotta, again, just kind of keep going back to, okay, what does my mind tell me? Because my mind's pretty, most of us are pretty smart on our own. And if, if our gut tells us that a guy walking down the street in a dress doesn't make him a woman, then we're probably right. No matter what people try to tell us.
Holistic Mental Health: Mind, Body, Spirit
00:09:47
Speaker
Another topic that I found in navigating mental health and why it can be a complex topic is because we're not all mental. We're not all mind. I found a common way of dividing who we are is between spirit, soul, and body. Do you ever find it becomes relevant to dissect between those three things when counseling individuals? If so, how do you usually use those three different aspects of us to help someone? Kyle, you want to take that one? You want me to jump in?
00:10:16
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm actually going to bounce off what you said, and I wanted to bring it into my sermon. But again, time restraints, right? Physical fitness, physical fitness is huge in mental health. I had three conversations on Sunday after the after the message on depression of people who use physical fitness and healthy eating to keep their mind straight because of the trauma that they've endured.
00:10:40
Speaker
And so physical fitness and mental health are like directly related with each other. And if you sit alone in your house and you struggle with depression, you're just feeding that depression. But if you get out and go walk with a friend, you're releasing those endorphins your body needs to feed your mind and you're feeling better, you're having conversation. And so just the relationship between the physical health and mental health is undeniable. Right.
00:11:08
Speaker
And just to be clear so that everybody understands what we're saying, while there are three things that make us up, mind, soul, and body, they're not three different pieces of pie. They all fit together. They're interwoven. So to Kyle's point, your exercise makes your mind think better. It makes it clearer. It causes things to work in succession the way they need to. When your soul is fed and nurtured the way God intends it to be, then it makes you have a greater desire to take care of your body because you understand
00:11:38
Speaker
that each one of them builds off of the other. And so as true followers of Christ, if we're going to be that way, we have to take good care of all three of them. There are like three legs on a three-legged stool. If you let one of them go, then the stool topples. For some people that might be listening and being like, well,
00:11:54
Speaker
Dan mentioned mind, where does the mind fit into that? Usually the breakdown of the soul I find is between, it's spirit, soul, and body, and then you can break down the soul into, I believe, your thinking, your mind, your emotions, and your will. Those three things, which are very hard to pull apart. It's kind of like a Venn diagram where they're mostly overlapping, and we're trying to figure out how to define these things, but I would be curious to see, where do you define separate your spirit and how it affects your soul?
00:12:23
Speaker
That's a good question. You were talking about the, I don't mean to cut you off really, but if you're... No, go ahead. I'll give you a second to think about what you're going to say. I had something on my mind. When you were talking about mind, we talked about it earlier and I looked up Romans 12.2 and it says, do not be conformed any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
00:12:43
Speaker
which means we had one way of thinking, and that would be the thinking of our flesh. And then we have a new way of thinking that we're called to as believers, and that's to have a mind of the Spirit. And so we no longer take our desires and our way of thinking about things, and we adapt what scripture tells us. And so by that renewing of our mind, we're not looking through, it's, you know, Lord, give me your eyes, right? We're looking through a filter of what he wants us to see, rather than what
00:13:12
Speaker
our brain tells us and then Satan will piggyback on the back of that and make it even worse inside of our mind. And so just that renewing or that refreshing of your mind can take us from one area to another and constantly remind us to think of things of the spirit, things that are above, not things of this earth.
Community Support in Recovery
00:13:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So back to your question, Dan, reword it again for me so I remember what we were talking about. Or was we're navigating mental health and Kyle made a good crossover between why physical health and physical fitness is so important for our mental health because it's all connected. But then so we have our physical, our body, our flesh on one side and how it impacts our soul and mind and thinking emotions in the middle.
00:13:53
Speaker
On the other side, we also have this spirit, this God-breathed part of us that separates us from the animals, right? Because the animals have a soul. The animals have a body. They don't have a spirit. It's different. How does that impact our mental health and how do we navigate that? I bet I'm probably not gonna have a real clear answer on this, but the first place that I would start is that the spirit blooms and blossoms best when it lives in obedience to the Creator who made it.
00:14:21
Speaker
And so in those other areas when we are taking care of the soul, when we're taking care of the body, the Spirit is given the opportunity to give fruit. I mean, that's what Galatians talks about when it says the fruit of the Spirit. Those things are allowed to grow, to become mature, to
00:14:42
Speaker
Become evident in our lives because of obedience in every other area of our life And so it's this this intimate connection with the one who gave us the spirit that spirit that lives in us the Holy Spirit I think just again
00:14:57
Speaker
When you're living in alignment with where you know you need to go, there's a greater peace inside the spirit of your body. But when you're living every other area of your life contrary to what the scriptures teach, then the spirit is in turmoil at all times, which in part leads to the subjects of anxiety and depression we're talking about here. So I hope that answered your question. Yes.
00:15:19
Speaker
I heard a great quote from CS Lewis. I don't just kind of not read it, but kind of summarize it when he was asked to describe the Holy Spirit. He said that there's spirits all over the place. You can walk into a good, good concert or place where people are singing and feel a certain presence about the place. Sometimes it's so strong. You walk into a place and they're all of one mind and all of one soul, maybe going after a certain song. And it's almost like the spirit among the people almost has a tangible presence.
00:15:49
Speaker
to itself and that that same spirit between the father and the son are so strong that it literally makes a third person in there that's so strong that it's the holy spirit because the unity between the two and we almost you can almost get caught in between it and that's the holy spirit the that presence that unity of mind and thought
00:16:09
Speaker
And almost think of like, as we as Christians, it's one of the big reasons why doing things corporately becomes so powerful. Yes. Because it's no longer just our spirit alone, but our spirit getting caught up with other people's spirit as we're running together could kind of carry us because there's this separate entity, especially across believers called the Holy Spirit unifying us.
00:16:28
Speaker
bringing power that was from outside of us. And so when I think about mental health, I'm like, man, it's almost why community is so important because of the spirit. Your spirit needs the power and presence of other believers' spirits, but of course the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit comes when we're spending more time together. Focus on God.
00:16:50
Speaker
On a practical sense, between services, I had a quick conversation with someone and we were talking about they were depressed at one point on medications to hold them in a stable position. And I said, at what point were you able to break free of the medication and switch back and come back to a place of happiness and out of depression without medication?
00:17:11
Speaker
And it was a planned thing between him and his therapist. And then they surrounded him with people like his wife, who was a believer, and believing fellow believers, men in the church. And they created this community around him as he went through that transition to go from being medicated for depression to standing on his own feet with the Lord, basically.
00:17:32
Speaker
And he said it took 100% community in order for that to happen. Because if not, he said he would have felt like he was isolated by himself. And he would have been right back in the mindset that he originally was in. And so that community played a huge part in him breaking free of that medication. And I wouldn't recommend anybody ever coming off medication for depression without some type of structured plan surrounding a staple of community. Absolutely.
00:18:00
Speaker
It makes me think of that old chorus we used to sing in church growing up. We are one in the bond of love, and it would say we're one in the bond of love. We have joined our spirits with the spirit of God. That's what happens when we come together as believers, and as we connect with one another, we draw strength from one another, and our spirits are, in a sense, almost filled in with the spirits of other people as they lift us. It's a beautiful thing, but it's almost hard to describe unless you've been a part of it.
00:18:30
Speaker
That's it need to bring that song back. I'm going to look it up right after this, you know, before we came online, I also was reading an article about this. I don't know if y'all seen the video, the British comedian, Russell brand. Uh, he has been on this long journey now to find God.
00:18:47
Speaker
And he just released a video where he was talking about the more he has been looking for something in his life, the more it's directed him towards God, and the closer he's moved towards God, the more he's realized. And this is the way he put it. He said, with all these voices that were inside of me, didn't it make sense that I made room for one of those voices at least to be God?
00:19:08
Speaker
And I thought, it's a beautiful way of him describing it for a guy who didn't grow up believing in Jesus. He said in the past that the church for him was either old and dusty and irrelevant or tried to be too contemporary and modern and just didn't seem to be feeling right. And so now he has discovered that what he was missing was that the whole thing is about God's presence in your life, not the institutions that we call faith.
00:19:35
Speaker
And so because of that, he's talking about this greater peace he's finding in his soul because of his journey towards God.
00:19:41
Speaker
to come into a third topic on this podcast, we were talking about the social acceptance of some mental health, especially the social acceptance of anxiety.
Social Attitudes Towards Mental Health
00:19:51
Speaker
Like that can just be a normal thing. Like you're anxious, that's okay. How do you guys perceive that as general advice? I think the younger generation, I would say like students in my care right now are a little more open to talking about it and admitting to having mental struggles than the older generation is.
00:20:11
Speaker
I think it's been a taboo subject for so long. This generation is being fed so much right now from all different sides that they're overwhelmed and they're okay to say, hey, I've got some mental health issues going on. And I found that in our prayer request time on Wednesday nights and Dan, you're there most of the time.
00:20:30
Speaker
and you've seen it too. This whole topic of mental health came into play when I had one of my students in the middle of a room surrounded by 60 people raise their hand and say, I'm surrounded by people and I'm lonely.
00:20:45
Speaker
It just started opening up a conversation about who's struggling with this depression or isolation or loneliness when we're constantly surrounded by people. And so I found that they're way more willing to talk about it and there's not as much judgment towards people who are expressing mental health issues than there has been in the past.
00:21:07
Speaker
Definitely a better acceptance in our culture to understand that we do face mental challenges that sometimes require not only the help of other people in our lives, which is huge, but also the help of professionals who can take us that extra step that may be just a friend or a spouse or somebody can't take us there.
00:21:24
Speaker
But we did talk about this online, so I'm going to bring it back up because I think it's really important. It's not probably the most popular statement in the world, but I'm going to say that I think there's a lot of people who cling to these things as safety blankets so that they have an excuse not to take responsibility for their behavior.
00:21:40
Speaker
We joked about it, but I have seriously had parents who've come up to me and said, my two-year-old has anxiety. That's ludicrous for you to think that your two-year-old has anxiety. If your two-year-old is expressing anything about anxiety, it's because they're picking up on something from you. Your two-year-old does not yet have the ability to be anxious about things. All they do is pee, poop, and eat. And so as long as you're taking care of those needs for them, there's no reason for them to have anxiety. I think
00:22:10
Speaker
The certification of a person to talk about these things sometimes creates this defeatist attitude for the, let's call them the patient, for the patient to just accept what's said to them. But if we go back again to Scripture, as Kyle talked about so well Sunday, we go back to Scripture. Scripture clearly says that by the power of the Holy Spirit, we have the ability to retrain our thinking.
00:22:34
Speaker
to retrain our current status so that our future doesn't have to be described by anxiety or depression or loneliness or unforgiveness. We have a choice in that. Sadly, for me, my experience, and Kyle, you can speak to it. Dan, you probably have your own testimony. There are too many adults in the church today who use that as an excuse for not being really truly obedient followers of Christ.
Medication and Accountability in Treatment
00:22:59
Speaker
Well, I just have problem A and you fill in the blank.
00:23:02
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's been supported and pushed by the culture as well. And I think we're over diagnosing a lot of things and treating it with medication. It could be an over overseeing of pharmaceuticals that have an agenda. But we're treating people for say, we would say a chemically imbalanced brain, right? And so although there's facts to that, because within depression, the sadness that we experience,
00:23:29
Speaker
it produces and blocks the neuroreceptors in our brain to receive the serotonin in the
00:23:36
Speaker
cortisol or the cortisol is released and blocking those things. And so with that, there is a chemical imbalance, but when they say that, it's on the approach that, hey, you're broken, right? And so we got a medication to fix that instead of saying, hey, is there something you've experienced in your past? Is there a trauma that you've endured that's causing all this sadness to arise? And so we're just treating the symptom rather than going back to the cause and looking at the cause.
00:24:05
Speaker
And my work with healthcare professionals and obviously most of what the ones I'm talking about are dealing more with the physical elements that we experience as a nation, not necessarily the mental things that we deal with. What I am hearing over and over again from older men and women who've served in this field for 30, 40 and 50 years. They're saying the problem in healthcare in America today.
00:24:25
Speaker
whether you're talking to physical or the mental side is that the newer doctors and nurses are taught to treat symptoms rather than find the cause. And so if Ridley walks into a doctor's office today and says, I am feeling very, very depressed. Sadly, the first response is going to be, well, let's take a look at some medications that we can give you that might help. Very few doctors are going to, to ask the question, okay, how much sleep are you getting? How many hours of exercise are you getting a week?
00:24:51
Speaker
are you and your wife getting along very well? I mean, everything plays into this from the physiological to the relational, every bit of it plays a role in it. And I think if you're going to be a true doctor who lives up to the Hippocratic oath and says, I will do no harm to anybody. You got to start by asking really strong questions about, okay, let's take a look at the easy fixes before we start jumping all the way to medications and, you know, extended expensive hours of therapy.
00:25:18
Speaker
And I want to speak to the medication part of it because that is a huge tool to help people make a transition.
00:25:26
Speaker
But there has to be a basis of getting to the root cause as we deal with that. Because I've seen medication save people's life and that medication, the depression meds will get them in a spot that now they can think properly and progress on in their healing process. And then the goal is always or should be to wean yourself off of those medications at some point rather than thinking that you have a life sentence of depression.
00:25:55
Speaker
there should be always a goal to resolve the depression.
00:25:58
Speaker
What's funny is I didn't even think to bring it up in response to your topic, but I actually went on antidepressants when I was in high school, a story that I'm hoping to tell with the youth sometime. But that's exactly what happened. You go to the doctor and the doctor's like, well, let's see what kind of meds you got. And this is back in 2003, so I know they're probably doing it more now. I went through a few different medications and I did finally find something that made things level. It wasn't great, but it worked.
00:26:26
Speaker
I think I was a kind of a first person my family to really start digging deep into God and I found the more I'd actually dug into God the more Things started getting better for me and all of a sudden like after a year and a half I was just I'm like, yeah, I don't think I really need to take these anymore I was already starting to become irregular in it probably should have got some more counsel before I made the decision as an 18 year old, but I kind of came off and you know, I was kind of never come never hits me anymore, but I have
00:26:51
Speaker
Also have behaviors to like, if I feel like coming, it's kind of like, well, let's, let's clean things up. Let's go for a run, spend some time in prayer. When I walked into my personal physician and first time this had ever happened, the first thing they did was hand me a sheet of paper and ask me questions about whether or not I was depressed. And I'm like, why are we, why are we even starting there? I came to see you because I'm having a headache or something like that. Why are you starting with this question of depression? And literally every time I go back, I had to fill out that same questionnaire now.
00:27:20
Speaker
You know, are you depressed? Are you not sleeping because of the stress stress in your life? I'm like, can we just deal with my cold? That's all I came to talk to you about. You know, why are we looking for reasons to give people medication? Yeah. Yeah. With questionnaires like that, I'm always like, okay, what happened in the legal system or why is the hospital pushing this?
Role of Professionals and Spiritual Guidance
00:27:39
Speaker
Right. Cause especially when you bring kids in, they're making you ask all questions, all kinds of questions about that kid to catch abuse, which is kind of good. And the kind of like, you know,
00:27:48
Speaker
with the surveys. I think everyone's got interesting ideas and opinions about where the medical profession is right now. That's a whole other episode. I do think it's important, and I know Kyle and I both have addressed this in our sermons and even today, I think it is really important that you do not exclude professionals from the conversation when you're talking about your mental health.
00:28:13
Speaker
Um, because there are some elements that you can't control just by having positive thoughts. There's some elements that can't be fixed just by taking a little extra exercise. There are some places where therapy and our medication are a necessary step. Uh, so again, none of us on the show or, or clinical professionals or licensed therapists or whatever.
00:28:34
Speaker
So we always want to encourage that. And I am a huge supporter of counseling, uh, even for the healthiest people, because it helps to process things that you can't think through on your own. So I want to make, make sure people hear that the Grove Hill church does not stand in opposition to any of those tools. But as Kyle and I both have said the last two weeks, it's absolutely essential that you make room at the table for the Bible to be a part of the conversation. And I would argue that's the place you should
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:29:02
Speaker
start.
00:29:02
Speaker
It makes a ton of sense. And there's always special specialists too that are always dial into one type of area like war PSD or different all PTSD or different types of things that, you know, even you as a, as a pastor and a counselor, you know, it's just probably not a lot you could speak to. It's in the same way.
00:29:21
Speaker
Well, to wrap things up, thank you so much for listening to the Grove Hill podcast where we try to impact the life of every person with the whole gospel by any means possible. And that includes this podcast. Share it with somebody who needs to hear it.