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Mind the Model: Episode 006: Gai Le Roy
27 Plays3 days ago
Show Notes
Sir Martin Sorrell on the future of advertising with AI
Insightful commentary on how artificial intelligence is reshaping creative work, media efficiency, and the structure of modern agencies. Read more: https://www.mediaweek.com.au/sxsw-sydney-five-ways-ai-is-redefining-advertising-according-to-sir-martin-sorrell/
IAB Australia
A valuable source of industry standards, research, and learning materials for advertising and digital media professionals.
Explore their work: https://iabaustralia.com.au/
Access the AI resource guide curated by the AI Working Group: https://iabaustralia.com.au/resource/ai-unlocked-a-resources-learning-guide-for-the-ad-industry/
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Transcript
Introduction: Greetings and Episode Setup
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Mind the Model. I'm Nathan Guerra and as always I'm joined by my co-host Emily Krellin. Em, how are you? How's it going?
Emily's AI Experimentation: Personality Adjustments
00:00:21
Speaker
i um I wanted to ask you, because last time we caught up, um you mentioned something pretty interesting about training your Gemini into being a bit petty B-I-T-C-H. Tell me more. Yeah, well, I found a prompt online that someone suggested, and I might have even adjusted it. But basically, the yeah idea was to try and remove some of the sycophancy that you get from an AI. Yeah.
00:00:47
Speaker
Yeah. And so what I did is I put a, you and Gemini, you can, I think they call it like a master prompt. And most of the solutions have the ability to kind of give your your your AI overarching instructions.
00:00:58
Speaker
And I told it to be harsh and not sycophantic and to be critical. And I didn't really remember that I did that. And because I use Gemini in about four different accounts and I kind of, I came back to that account later and i was asking it to, um, uh, I had to submit a bio for something and I was like, Hey, so help me craft my bio. Tell me what you think about it.
00:01:23
Speaker
And it came back and said, Your bio is insufficient. This is not good enough. You need to change your bio. And it was in incredibly harsh. And I had completely forgotten that I had changed it. And I realized I made like super mean ai And it was just as easy as like changing it like a couple of words. And I made a very, very mean AI.
00:01:44
Speaker
And I like criticism, but even was like, okay, maybe I need to scale it back a little Scale it back, yeah. I have gone too far into the ah mean AI realm.
00:01:55
Speaker
So yes, I have changed my master prompt and and made it a little bit less harsh. And it seems to be better now. It still isn't sycophantic, which I'm you know looking to avoid. But ah it was ah it was a bit of an interesting period there where I was like, My gosh, I'm mean.
Industry Trends: OpenAI's Feature Reintroduction
00:02:10
Speaker
I'm really mean. Well, yeah. I mean, Chibati went through that sick of fantasy stage. And, you know, Sam Altman came out with a tweet. Apparently they're bringing back. People liked it. They're bringing it back for people that liked it, along with erotica. So interesting flex there by
AI Challenges: Consistency and Customization
00:02:29
Speaker
OpenAI. But, um yeah, you know, it's funny about the master prompts because I, the no matter how many times I have said, do not use a bloody em dash.
00:02:38
Speaker
still does it. And I never use M dashes. I use n dash, so the like the shorter version. And I have ah for all of my writing time, you know but since I've been writing online, which years and years and years.
00:02:51
Speaker
And so I have to go back and find the M dash, delete it use the
Guest Introduction: Gaye Leroy, CEO of IAB Australia
00:02:55
Speaker
N dash. so And you put it in the master prompt as well? I put it in the master prompt. Every time I prompt, I use it again. And for some reason, it just doesn't seem to take the hint.
00:03:03
Speaker
Well, maybe it's trying to try some Gemini. i I think I need to dabble. But yeah, let's let's try it out. Hey, you know what? this is um This is actually a great chat this morning. I'm so excited about this guest.
Gaye's Insights: Digital Advertising Experience
00:03:15
Speaker
um ah The person we are about to bring on ah her and i worked together as unlimited ambassadors a few years ago. So I got to meet her in a really interesting context of working alongside each other and volunteering and trying to do some work for good. in the advertising and marketing industry. And she is so well known for just being ah thought leader in this space, a bit of an oracle of knowledge, um a researcher background who's just so smart. I have so much admiration for this woman.
00:03:45
Speaker
um We have Gaye Leroy joining us today. And Gaye is the CEO of IAB Australia, which is the peak advocacy research and standards body, which represents digital media and advertising.
00:03:58
Speaker
Gay has worked in the media industry for 30 years and in the digital ad industry since portals were cool, pop-ups were rampant, and an unnamed TV exec told her that internet advertising would never be worth more than $100 million.
00:04:15
Speaker
and see how that panned out. and But prior to running the IAB, Gay held senior roles at Fairfax Nielsen 9 MSN and Gateway Research. Gay, welcome to Mind the Model. Hey, Nate. Hey, Em. I felt like ChatGPT was writing my bio and intro there. it was so lovely.
00:04:30
Speaker
Thank you very much. Yeah, I had a similar conversation with my wife once. oh She was like, this internet thing's never going to be big. And so yeah we've we've proven them both wrong. I know, but I do have to remind myself now I'm the old person. I'm probably the old TV exec in the room.
AI Utility: Practical Applications and Creativity
00:04:45
Speaker
And every time there's a new trend that comes through, i have to pull back and and my um natural cynicism um I'll allow it to fly. So it feels like we're talking about AI today, which is one that I feel will stick.
00:04:58
Speaker
Whereas there was a bit more cynicism or i think around the metaverse and some of the earlier trends. Okay, to start this off, we want to run you through a couple of quick fire questions. ah Talk to us, what is your favorite AI model and why? What's the last thing you used it for?
00:05:11
Speaker
I have stuck to ChatGPT, I must say. it has um It's very hard to move away even though I play with different things. It gets to know you, you're getting to know it, so i continue um along along that line. And what's the last thing you use it for? I am currently going through a billion trinkets in my parents' house as I get ready to sell it and um you would not believe how many versions of Royal Dalton ah little figurines there are in the world.
00:05:41
Speaker
And I have no idea if they're worthless or worth something. So I'm going through and cataloging that, um getting ready to either give them away or sell them depending on um what they're worth. So there's a lot of, um yeah, it's it's saving an incredible amount of time.
00:05:57
Speaker
um You know, writing descriptions, doing all the stuff, it you know, can help me create a spreadsheet to ah love um upload into eBay. So it's been a a joy. The very last person we interviewed was basically doing the exact same thing. I i actually had a chat to ah Paul Blackburn this week. Yes. um And I'm like, oh, no, you used the example. But I'm like, it's a good example. I'm going to use it again. So... Now, do you have a particular prompting methodology or approach? It's basically just to train it like a line trainer. And I have in mind all the time there's a um a scene, and I brought this up at an event the other day, and I think everyone was way too young, but I'm a huge 30 Rock fan.
00:06:40
Speaker
um And there's a scene scene in 30 Rock where um Jenna is trying to impress a um a royal, a European royal who has a lot of money, who is in a wheelchair and can't move.
00:06:52
Speaker
And basically he tells her to dance and then it's, you know, jazz, cabaret, tap. um So it's a little bit a little bit like that. It's just that variety piece and and working it as hard as I possibly can. Take 10 times to really, really train it because, you know,
00:07:09
Speaker
it you know As we know, all the models don't necessarily take that on board long term, so you need to just keep going back and and
AI Limitations: Structured Data and Analysis
00:07:16
Speaker
honing if possible. So your average prompt, you'll type something in and then ask it another question or a follow-up and a follow-up, and that's the kind of approach? it It takes me back to my early theater.
00:07:25
Speaker
So I used to do drama a lot as a kid and it's it's improv, right? It's like it's yes and but, you know, yeah yeah yeah it's, you know, like try harder, work with me here.
00:07:36
Speaker
So that's my approach and I just want to make sure that creativity piece is in there. um So just it it keeps my brain alive by going what what you know what's the new angle um here um and just making sure there's nothing too generic around um anything that's being made or created.
00:07:55
Speaker
have Have you used it recently and found yourself doing a bit of an AI fail? Like you tried to get something out of it and just bang your head up against a wall. It didn't seem to work for you. Yeah, look, i'm ah I'm a spreadsheet girl. Love it.
00:08:10
Speaker
structured data is not great so I'm still sort of and look I haven't you know I guess we'll get onto this but the amount of time to explore what actually works and the right models and the right tools um like it's a full-time job um but definitely working with with structured data has been very hard and I find the hallucinations on numbers on insights.
00:08:34
Speaker
It's great on open copy text. Um, but you know, and you know, particularly I work with a lot of survey data. Um, it's, you know, you need pretty specialist tools, um, and a lot of, you know, clear criteria.
00:08:49
Speaker
Um, so that takes, that can take longer than a hundred percent agree. I've, I've realized that it's good for, um, if you'd run the data analysis first and then uh,
00:09:01
Speaker
your AI to run some insights as well. You can kind of cross check just to make sure it's on the right track because I agree. I'm a data girl myself and it's, it's quite difficult with any kind of numbers.
00:09:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And you just don't want to get them wrong too.
AI in the Workplace: Realism and Future Impact
00:09:16
Speaker
Exactly. Like it's vague stuff, it's fine, but yeah, numbers you need to write. Okay. One more question for you. do you consider yourself to be an AI optimist, realist, or pessimist?
00:09:26
Speaker
Realist. I know that's a boring answer, but it's it's absolutely the, I think i i my natural human, you know, like going back to my my my core nature, i tend to be cynical.
00:09:41
Speaker
So I have to spend a lot of time on readjusting myself either way um to come to that middle point. But yeah, realist, I hope. Now, getting into the main bit, the one thing I'm most excited to ask you about, Kay, is you speak with senior leaders across agencies, brands, and media owners every day.
00:09:57
Speaker
What is the overall sentiment or the vibe around AI right now? Is it excitement, concern, or a bit of both? Definitely both. And you could add in probably 20 other um adjectives into the mix.
00:10:09
Speaker
I think overwhelmed is the probably, you know, the the vibe, so to speak, at the moment. So definitely everyone wants to take advantage. I think that um complete cynicism has gone from senior leaders. Like it's coming. They want to make the most of it, particularly from an efficiency point of view. but The where to invest, um how to invest too early, too late. Like I think every leader's gone through that, you know, investing too early and getting stuck on something.
00:10:38
Speaker
yeah um The amount of noise every week around a new model, a new, know, we've got This week when we're recording, chat, GPT, browser coming through. so we're all testing that.
00:10:49
Speaker
So I think that overwhelm nature and also the responsibility as leaders. So managing teams who are all freaking out because, you know, the human nature of what will my business look like? Will I have a job?
00:11:01
Speaker
How do I keep my skills up to date? um And when leaders don't always have the answer, um which I think you've got to be transparent about. uncertainty. Yeah, but you also have to look like you have some idea of of where you're heading.
00:11:17
Speaker
um So I think there's a yeah a lot of stress on leaders. And I think AI at the moment, like it's it's coming together and like I try to untangle this a little bit with you know, change in economics across the world, drive for productivity, like it's all coming at once.
00:11:35
Speaker
And I worry sometimes AI is being seen as the lead question point rather than the change in the world and then us using. I think i think next year we'll be talking about AI as a tool rather than AI as the, you know, the guiding light.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah, so that sounds like concern to me, I guess of what I'm hearing there. More than more than excitement. I think it's excitement of what could be the other side, but the job to do is big.
00:12:07
Speaker
So I think I think i absolutely realise it will revolutionise their industry, their products, their product the everything. So I don't want to under underplay that because I think everyone knows everything will be different and a lot of things in a better way.
00:12:22
Speaker
um It's just, you know, it's not the promise of a, it's going to be a flick of a switch and you turned on and now you're running AI models to do everything.
00:12:34
Speaker
um So we're in the hard work phase. And do you think part of it is the current crop of leaders in most agencies have been dealing with people problems and agency advertising issues.
00:12:49
Speaker
And now that this is a real technical challenge and and that's ah something that they're not as comfortable with maybe. There's a little bit of that. I think they've all been trying really hard to reinvent as tech companies, you know, um for for a long time. So it speeds that process up.
00:13:04
Speaker
um So I think that's probably a good thing. I think they've all tried to be, from media agency point of view, more in the consulting field for a long time. um And that hasn't been ah possible while the day-to-day tasks have been in the way.
00:13:19
Speaker
ah think the other thing that gets in the way and particularly brand side, but that flows through to agencies and and then through to everyone else is compliance and understanding what that, you know, what that looks like for everyone um and ah how to set up the, I think at the moment compliance is very manual.
00:13:41
Speaker
um yeah And that's, you know, i I speak to a lot of marketers and they can say the compliance time can take away any savings I'm getting from AI, particularly in creating ad campaigns, um data targeting, all of it.
00:13:55
Speaker
yeah um that that That will ease, but definitely compliance at the moment. And that risk factor is something that media agencies might not have been as close to some of the legal requirements.
Job Roles Evolution: Training and Automation
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:06
Speaker
In the end, it's a good thing because it brings everyone closer to those business rules, objectives, um but it is a different muscle. Switching gears a little bit, um in terms of ah AI and hiring, are you hearing anything about team structure and what people are, are they are they starting to hire differently? Yeah, it's changed so quickly, which I guess isn't a novel thing that you'll be hearing on this podcast, but we do ah do an annual talent survey in our industry and um we do it every June. So June 2024, we ask that question and everyone's like,
00:14:43
Speaker
Watching but not changing. um We asked again this year. um And it is very different for small companies versus larger companies. How so? So many of the change in structure will come quicker for the big companies.
00:14:59
Speaker
Like they've got 40 people doing similar jobs. Yeah. yeah um So that um consolidation will come at people quicker. um I think it's interesting being in Australia because for but some of the tech companies or the publishers, they've got small teams here already.
00:15:16
Speaker
Like the big changes in numbers will be possibly overseas. um Some of the commercial roles are probably safer short term. Like if you're a... can I say bloody good salesperson? Yeah. um You know, though i can't replace you.
00:15:32
Speaker
Absolutely. So I definitely think, um so when we did the survey this year, there was definitely a review of entry-level jobs. um That was definitely the big call-out of we're not necessarily cutting too many jobs yet. Right.
00:15:51
Speaker
but we're not necessarily bringing on um new people at that entry level if we can automate those sort of intern jobs. And then then at the higher level, at the top senior level, we're definitely seeing... um How can I word this nicely? um some Some consolidation of those senior leadership roles, some real pressure on expensive roles.
00:16:14
Speaker
um But again, as I ah spoke about earlier, some of that's AI, some of that's just um different expectations of ratios in business, the economics. um So I think- The market impacts, yeah.
00:16:27
Speaker
Yeah, and and it it is all blended. And I think everyone is hoping that, you know, so you get an organisational structure that's much more in the middle, which is interesting because we used to see those mid-jobs go, but they're probably a little bit safer. So everyone's being stretched um at a more junior level to do some more senior stuff, but also um think about the things that those entry-level people would would have done um and how can we make sure we've got the systems in place to automate that.
00:16:56
Speaker
So do you think it is a bit of a short-term issue? Like people are just using ai almost as an excuse? I don't think so, but we're going to have to do something. I definitely think, you know, because it's and it's not just our industry. Like if you look at, i mean, the legal profession is probably the greatest example of, you know um you know, the sort of jobs that young lawyers come in and do.
00:17:20
Speaker
You know, they can all be automated. It's going through case files. It's, you know, it's it's writing briefing papers. But if we don't have people coming in and doing that that training and understanding the basics, it's going to be a problem.
00:17:34
Speaker
But I don't know who's going to pay for that. yeah So, um ah you know, like going back in our industry, there were huge intern programs, training programs, cross-functional pieces.
00:17:47
Speaker
You look at the big um CPG or FMCG companies, like the great trainers of of marketers, um it's it's going to be an issue down the line and it's probably something like the industry bodies are constantly thinking about that. What's our role in that?
00:18:02
Speaker
Well, it's interesting you say that because like Sorrel at South by Southwest talked about the fact that he thought that, you know, the whole media planning and buying function would basically be disappearing in two to three years, which I feel like is a relatively aggressive timeline. Nothing in this industry moves in two or three years, but um it is an interesting thought. and And I don't necessarily think he's totally wrong, but I'd love to know if you think that there are particular roles at risk ah as a result of AI. He likes a headline. um
00:18:34
Speaker
And again, he's often often right in in the in the long hope. I think definitely it's probably over over-egging. And I guess what the definition of the tasks of a media buyer will definitely change.
00:18:47
Speaker
ah There will be less of them. um But... you know If you look at the automation of so many of the buying methods, whether it's within an agency or every single ad tech platform is trying to do everything for everyone, if you don't have staff there that can question, can tweak, can play around with it, you're going to get the blandest work ever and yeah we have to be honest optimization is is definitely built in for the client but it's also built in for the owner of those tools so yeah you know there's still going to need to be some people really questioning um if you you know i talk to a lot of tech people around how many clients actually go in even if it's an you know an automated model to go in and change prompts change settings it's so few people
00:19:44
Speaker
So the agencies that have, um you know, that really annoying tech guy, you need to think about that person in every role across your your agency.
00:19:56
Speaker
um You know, that one who's always tinkering, breaking, playing, ah questioning, and, you know, they are super wonderful and super annoying. If you don't have that person in there, you're probably going to get the same results as the agency next door. Sorry, I was just going to jump in and say it's it's interesting you say that because I'm hearing you as ah campaign optimizers, potentially a lot of their work could be automated by AI, but maybe their job will change into like campaign auditors.
00:20:28
Speaker
So rather than managing, you know, 20 campaigns, they manage 100, but checking the output of what the AI automation is optimizing against. Yeah, and just encouraging ah encouraging because like there's a certain amount of experimentation built into the optimisers, ah but it's definitely based on history.
00:20:48
Speaker
So, again, it's a bit like that, you know, line tamer you know type, you know, bringing in some showbiz, some pizzazz, getting into shape, making sure The experiments are broad enough and, you know, possibly across different tools. You know, it's um you just got to make sure it's not, you know, we've seen in the past optimizers, you know, just go so much for efficiency rather than effectiveness.
00:21:16
Speaker
um And and we we need to, um you know, sometimes just put that spoke in the wheel or something um to really to really test it. And, yeah, we'll try and think of a nicer name than an auditor. When I grow up, I want to be an auditor. But but that but that is like that there's less people.
00:21:36
Speaker
um I think, you know, that's the reality of those people roles where there are a lot of people doing similar jobs. um yeah If I had look back five years ago and when I thought about what the jobs that AI would take away, it would be very much on actually my history, be the data insights, it'd be the analytical, it'd be the... Oh, gosh, don't say that.
00:21:59
Speaker
That's my job. I know, I know. But it's stuff that you think machines can... think in that way. ah But it has been surprisingly, I guess, the low end of the creative side that's been, um you know, um taken away quicker.
00:22:14
Speaker
And I will be very clear it is more that, you know, roll out 40 creatives for a social campaign, um not the the really big thinking side of things.
00:22:25
Speaker
um But I think it has been interesting how much it's impacted people a wide range of jobs. So I'm reluctant to say it's going to go just after these jobs because I think anywhere where there are a multitude of people doing things, you know, our industry has been quite a heavy adopter of offshoring over the last 10 years, which I guess is a bit of an indicator of some of those jobs that, you know, can be a little bit more automated.
AI Policy: IAB's Role and Privacy Reforms
00:22:52
Speaker
um So the, I don't know, the human in me worries about, you know, we we have set up, you know, financial and economic hubs in different countries um who are quite reliant on that.
00:23:06
Speaker
um You know, what happens to those the teams in the Philippines, in India? So think that that responsibility of our industry of, you know, not just our teams here, but the economics across the ecosystem, we have to think about.
00:23:19
Speaker
No, that's a great point. And um one and somewhat provocative question I wanted to ask you is if your kids were entering the industry today, what roles would you steer them away from? oh God, that's such i mean it's such a hard question.
00:23:34
Speaker
because well maybe i pause Take the positive side of it. like Where would you encourage them to go? I'll do a bit of both. I would encourage them to think a little bit more cross-functionally. um So, you know, again, I've sort of said lawyers are out of jobs, but that compliance policy, you know, piece, understanding, ethics, policy, creative.
00:23:59
Speaker
um So I feel like there's a new role that is a little bit more cross-functional and the beauty of, I guess, AI and, you know, um how we learn now um that that's possible.
00:24:11
Speaker
um It makes it very, very hard for tertiary education to keep up. You know, it's interesting you bring up governance and um it's such a hot topic now when it comes to AI.
00:24:22
Speaker
And I've weirdly become a bit fascinated with, you know, the policies that are coming out of the different governments. and um how different companies are approaching governance and instilling those guardrails at their companies.
00:24:33
Speaker
For the IAB specifically, what are you guys doing to influence the policy and advocacy work for government? There's two very, and hopefully they won't be different, um long-term um priorities with the government. So productivity is definitely one. Yeah.
00:24:50
Speaker
um It's a huge driver, staying competitive in a global market, um you know, just making sure Australia is um more productive because we are sort of behind at the moment.
00:25:02
Speaker
And then there's that reducing harms, responsibility piece and trying to make them meet in the middle without compromising that human factor. Running a big industry body who has a lot of different members, so they're not always on this. Quite married membership, yes.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yes. And that's okay. And that's quite interesting to hear in terms of those different points of view. um For us short term, because we are um sort of half pregnant with privacy reform, it's understanding, um you know, as we go through the next reforms, that it's fit for purpose in an AI world.
00:25:38
Speaker
So how ai feeds into privacy, um what we need to do to stay competitive without exploitative is our number one focus at the moment.
Global AI Governance: Comparing Approaches
00:25:49
Speaker
Talking to the Privacy Commissioner, a Productivity Commissioner, commissioner um we're about to consultations about to start with Tranche 2 of privacy reform.
00:25:58
Speaker
So that's definitely the priority. um And then, you know, trying to look at um different areas that could definitely having conversations around anything that could cause harm um is, you know um you know, top of mind. And I try to stick to my lane because the lane can get pretty wide. So, you know, we bring it right back to advertising.
00:26:23
Speaker
One of our key pillars going into next year is um what we're calling publisher vitality. um So, you know, historically we haven't necessarily got us involved in the economics of media owners.
00:26:37
Speaker
um It's been by default that advertising, you know, we make the advertising ecosystem work really well, everyone thrives, ah but definitely the change in, um ah which my favorite way at moment, discovery.
00:26:50
Speaker
So how publishers are getting traffic um is definitely top of mind um and then how they can monetize in this new universe. so Well, because to but your point, advertising is no longer working as well as it has been in the past.
00:27:06
Speaker
Exactly. um So globally, that is a ah big focus um for us. So we're looking at IB Tech Lab, which is our global standards body is looking at um models for monetization, you know, um for scraping content, etc.
00:27:24
Speaker
I know there's a lot of players in that field, but we're trying to think how can we have um open um products that really allow the industry to still thrive. And that discoverability piece is, um it's it's actually one of the areas that's the same for buy and sell side.
00:27:44
Speaker
You know, often you have, you know, industry issues that are quite different for advertisers to publishers. There'll be different ways of operating, but that, how do I get people to see my stuff?
00:27:55
Speaker
is the biggest question at the moment. Like it's the it's the most asked question, you know, apart from, you know, that's why sort of at the beginning too about AI as a topic.
00:28:07
Speaker
It's actually this is the problem. um AI is driving some of the problem or drive some of the solutions. But, you know, how do I build a business where people um get the opportunity to see my stuff? Now for advertisers that will be, I'll want to flog them things, so I'm probably going to let...
00:28:26
Speaker
everyone in, the agents do all their bidding, you know, i might want some controls around it. ah But for media owners, it's a very different thing. So what is that value exchange if I let ah people scrape my content?
00:28:39
Speaker
How often are you talking to globally people people globally about AI? And are there trends that you're seeing globally or and or differences here in Australia?
Regulation Debate: Industry vs. Government
00:28:47
Speaker
So definitely, so we um are lucky that we have 45 IAB chapters around the world. So there's very different different takes on it.
00:28:56
Speaker
um So we are we are we're constantly cha chatting to each other about the hot topics and and obviously AI is right up there. um Looking a lot as always to the states because that's where everyone is to understand from an innovation point of view what's coming.
00:29:13
Speaker
um From a governance point of view, it's it's incredibly interesting. like Europe will always go harder on this stuff earlier. um So looking looking at you know um different regulatory regimes to make sure Australia can fit in.
00:29:30
Speaker
like So talk when we do talk to Canberra, you know if there's stuff that they're thinking about that is just completely different than the rest of the world, which can be fine, but if that's technically tricky and makes us awkward to deal with, um that's something we flag pretty quickly. Are there things like that that have come up, though?
00:29:49
Speaker
Are there specific things? Not yet. I think everyone's very early in terms of their ai regulation. definitely has in privacy. um and you know But there there will be, I think every government is...
00:30:02
Speaker
still tweaking around with their, um, there's a lot of sort of higher level, um, you know, responsibility statements, but I don't think anyone's seen a lot of case cases yet. So that's still a ah work in progress.
00:30:17
Speaker
Um, but yeah, no way. I think smaller markets are definitely chatting to each other around how we stay relevant. yeah Um, you know the you know The reality is our industry is more and more global, whether it's media agencies, um environments where people buy, and then the tech companies underneath it.
00:30:39
Speaker
So how do how do we not lose our local flavor as well as keeping our economy vibrant?
IAB's AI Initiatives: Education and Standards
00:30:47
Speaker
I'm going to ask you because I know you and judged a recent South by Southwest debate. and The IV is a proud sponsor of the debate club.
00:30:55
Speaker
um And the topic itself was ai moves too fast for government. Only the industry can regulate it. Who do you believe should take that responsibility for AI regulation in Australia? Look, I think some things have to be government, like at the end of the day, but there is also, we do have laws.
00:31:13
Speaker
um So the you know AI is a new technology. We definitely need to create some things that understand it. But if there are things that are causing harm, against consumers, against people, there are there are still legal mechanisms to um review that and frameworks.
00:31:30
Speaker
you know You know, every time we have a new technology, we don't want to be completely reframing ah regulation and legislation. So there's stuff already there. um I think what industry is really good at is creating those ah frameworks, there's protocols.
00:31:49
Speaker
Government will never be quick enough to really understand how we can operate. And then government's role is to go, yep, that's, you know, as an industry, you're doing the right thing from a self-regulation point of view, or we need to step in.
00:32:02
Speaker
um And historically, we've all always had that in the industry. Completely unrelated, Gabe, but have you heard anything from openai of joining the IAB? um Not locally. Definitely i'm I'm heading over to a global IAB forum where we all get together once once a year to have a chinwag and check out the stuff you don't always want on emails.
00:32:23
Speaker
um so But I definitely, the US have ah had a lot more engagement with the you know the the other players, particularly as the um everyone is reviewing what their advertising or commerce strategy is.
00:32:39
Speaker
um So they they're definitely, you know, in that ecosystem. Again, this is where local versus global markets is is quite tricky ah because, you know, the the model of rolling out something that works globally and probably not having headcounts, huge headcounts in local markets.
00:32:58
Speaker
means there will be more decisions made at that at that global level you have an ai working group within the iab um what are the kind of main goals and what do you hope it achieves yeah so so we do um and we have a a wonderful wide sort of group of of people with different both of skills and roles which is the the the the beauty of the iab you've got the the annoying tech people who are like, I'm trying this out and it doesn't work. And then you've got the commercial people who are selling our dream.
00:33:30
Speaker
And then you've got product people building things. So it's a delightful place where they can where they can all come together and, um you know, that innovation piece, but also keeping each other honest. So we've got five pillars that we're working around that will give you a bit of a feel of of where we're taking it. So Number one is education and upskilling. That's the one thing that we get asked. We have a wonderful AI hub on our website with whole lot of tools that are super grandest great. I love it. I'll in the show notes because it is so resourceful.
00:33:58
Speaker
Brilliant. And that team are constantly updating it. um So then the next one is AI standards and governance. So we've talked a bit about but that, both from a legal point of view, but also those protocols, protocols how do things work, how do you know how do we make sure things um can still operate in the ecosystem, innovation and use cases.
00:34:16
Speaker
Everyone wants to see case studies. Everyone wants to know what what everyone else is doing. So we're working on that. um Infrastructure and readiness. So just making sure um different types of companies are ready for this and making sure they've got the teams, the tools in place.
00:34:30
Speaker
um to do so. and then the last one, which is, you know, closest to my heart, they're all close to my heart, but it's around measurement, impact and sustainability. So how do we know this stuff is helping us? How is it working?
00:34:43
Speaker
um You know, what's the environmental impact? So bigger, bigger questions on, is it um good for the industry and good for the
Independent Agencies: Leveraging AI Tools
00:34:52
Speaker
world? And you you kind of mentioned ah ah something in there around how different groups are keeping up.
00:34:57
Speaker
I'd love to kind of understand from your perspective, um We've had lots of conversations with people like Accenture. We've had conversations with big um media organizations who have giant teams.
00:35:10
Speaker
How are you seeing the indies keep up? There's a huge opportunity opportunity for the Indies um and we we we do have a lot of conversations with the IAA. um you know Theoretically, they've now got all the tools. you know The majority of the tools that the big guys are similar tools. So that there's huge opportunity there, but finding the time to do so is um is's tricky. yeah i feel like they have hammers, but they haven't actually built anything with the hammers yet.
00:35:36
Speaker
Yeah, and look, to an earlier point, they will you know they will rely on tech companies more and ad tech companies. um So understanding who you're partnering with is incredibly important.
00:35:49
Speaker
um And having the flexibility to change, to question, to um create interoperability, I think that's going to be the trickiest bit for Indies because they're probably not going to necessarily always be able to afford the big suite that's got everything from the same company.
00:36:06
Speaker
There's such a range of Indies. You know, it's the the the ones that have been... digitally born and think that way. um i also think I'm quite interested in how the old school SEO Indies reinvent, because i actually think they have the best opportunity in the world at the moment.
00:36:26
Speaker
um So those performance agencies, I think that are within the Indies, they're used to change, they used to algorithm algorithms changing. They're very technical minded. If I 25, which as you can tell from my bio, I'm not,
00:36:41
Speaker
um I would short-term be building a, like I'd almost buy an old SEO agency, turn it into a discovery agency. um Probably AI will solve that problem in a year.
00:36:54
Speaker
So i've probably only got a year to build that up and then flog it off to someone. um But but that that being close to clients and understanding what they need in terms of discovery. I think the Indies have a really big opportunity there.
Human Element: Importance of Soft Skills
00:37:09
Speaker
yeah um Holco's are great and they can do that big picture and across the across everything. ah But often sometimes they might not be as close to those day to day problems.
00:37:20
Speaker
also think it will, um all of this will drive the growth of in-housing a little bit more and um because again those tools are available um I'm seeing a lot of young performance managers in some of the mid-sized companies who are trying to in-housing who have always gone we'll do the performance stuff ourselves and then we'll get the big agencies to do the big stuff.
00:37:44
Speaker
Suddenly they're like, well, I can do programmatic in-house or I can do bits and pieces. So um I think what brands manage will look quite different. It'll always be hybrid for a lot of them.
00:37:56
Speaker
um But I think the hype around, again, you know, we see this hype cycle. So, you know, five, six, seven years ago, everything was going to be in-house. um But now I think we're sort of seeing that being a little bit more of a possibility again.
00:38:11
Speaker
Yeah. And one thing that I wanted to just call back to is because you um you had an interesting point about like the jobs that will stick around. And it does seem like that human element is of increasing relevance and the the soft skills that maybe that's something in our industry can start to take an even more important um role in of really developing those top soft skills.
00:38:34
Speaker
Absolutely. And it it's that it's a commercial, it's the, you know, the ability to storytell and sell. um And it's the ability to and make friends is probably over again. And I can hear my partner go, Oh my God, you capitalists, you pretend you're you're friends with everyone, but you're just selling. But there is relationships. Yeah, exactly. Relationships. And and my number one tip for anyone young in the industry is to make friends with your peers.
00:39:02
Speaker
We hear a lot about mentoring. Us old people will be irrelevant in a few years. um You want to be hanging out and having a really good peer network. um that as you go through the next 10 years in your career and everything changes, who who are your people um who have got your back, who you can bounce ideas through?
00:39:23
Speaker
um That is that the number one thing I would say. Make friends, make connections in a meaningful way, not in a facile networking, swapping cards way or whatever we do now.
00:39:35
Speaker
um But who are who are your people? I love that. And Gay, I think you you really wrapped it up well, and that's so spot on. The network is of utmost importance and ah lucky to call you as a close and confidant in my network. So ah thank you so much. You've been just a wealth of knowledge, and we're so lucky to have you join us today.
00:39:59
Speaker
and Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you very much. Oh, absolute pleasure. Nathan, what did you think about that chat with Gay? You know, I was hoping for a big gotcha moment and I don't feel like we got her to kind of like, you know, give us any exciting news, which is unexpected.
00:40:15
Speaker
i would how was it for you? Yeah, you know what I found so interesting is because the... um and the The caliber of people, the talent that she speaks to. A lot of those senior leaders, they are feeling the same way as most us. The period of uncertainty, of unsure about how AI will disrupt our roles, um how it will impact hiring, how you know the jobs we do day in, day out might change.
00:40:41
Speaker
So I thought that was great. quite insightful in terms of her feedback from the industry. But, you know, there is that disruption that's currently going on, but there's that area of opportunity, like that excitement, but almost like a nervous energy from leaders, which I found to be, um yeah, quite interesting. we're We're in the messy middle right now.
00:40:59
Speaker
Well, funny enough, speaking of Messy Middle, I thought it was interesting that she was talking about you know the challenges on both the kind of gray end and the you know a diaper end of our industry. but That's definitely one way to explain it you know the Both of those places parts of the business are experiencing challenges in terms of the number of roles. And she was quite willing to talk about that.
00:41:19
Speaker
And thought it's great to hear somebody mention it. And then also... um Talk about how she expects that we're going to see more and more of these kind of planning and buying roles, echoing the Martin Sorrell comment, ah continue to be where we're going to start to automate more and more.
00:41:35
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, it's interesting because I thought it would be more of a conversation around like ad ops and like campaign up operations and optimization that she would call out as being.
00:41:47
Speaker
perhaps ah quite automated and replaced. But when we did bring up that ah SMS quote, she you know was quite aligned with media planning and buying will take a dramatic shift.
00:41:58
Speaker
I would think that if you asked her specifically about ad ops, it would probably fall into into the same bucket of things that are, there are a lot of people doing relatively similar roles. um I think those are going to be the jobs that are going to be the hardest hit.
00:42:11
Speaker
Yeah, and it's it is a hard question, right? Because if you if you were to ask anyone, like, what's the one role that you think would be replaced by AI? It's actually quite a lot. And not necessarily replaced by I should be careful around that language.
00:42:25
Speaker
Automated to the point of reducing headcount so that there's not as many roles available for that specific role. Um, I, I do think we will see a bit of, um, disruption in our industry.
00:42:39
Speaker
I thought it would happen this year. Um, I'd be interested to see how it plays out into next year and in the media world. Um, but to her point, you know, hold codes are going to probably see the biggest hit because they do have such a quantity of staff doing very similar roles.
00:42:56
Speaker
Uh, But yeah, it's an interesting time. It is the messy middle, but I i know she's a realist ah with a little dose of cynicism, but I'm i'm trying to remain in the optimist's seat because, yeah, there's there's so much good that can come from it.
00:43:12
Speaker
We talked a lot about the roles that are going to be most stable are those that have people at the heart of them. And to be honest, a lot of the people, most of the people and i have met in this industry have very strong people skills.
00:43:25
Speaker
We tend to probably over hire for that if I'm honest, but maybe that's beneficial for us in the long run or. Maybe it's a bunch of people like you and me who are very people people who are just hoping that we don't get automated away.
00:43:38
Speaker
I'm not sure which one it is, but one or the other, i don't have a horrible long-term view of where the industry's headed. I'm pretty confident. Yeah. I am optimistic because I think back of, um you know I've made some incredible relationships during my time in the industry and I've been in Australia for over nine years now. And so just looking at the the people I met when I was, you know, a junior account manager, new to media, trying to understand what was going on. And I've had someone actually reach out to me um earlier this year when I, after I went through my redundancy, just to reach out and say, hey, I've been thinking of you. You know, it's been ages since we last, you know, met and worked together, but I always remember you as being, you know, super friendly and, um you know, great work ethic. And just to have that um community of relationships with people that you don't necessarily see or work with all the time, if it does go to show that people skills and interpersonal communication are so vital in this industry. It's a very people-oriented industry, that's for sure.
00:44:39
Speaker
think it was a great chat and I'm looking forward to the next one. Thank you to all of our listeners and we would so appreciate if you could like share, and subscribe these episodes. Thanks for everybody for listening and remember the intelligence might be artificial, but the wins are real.
00:44:55
Speaker
See next time.
00:44:59
Speaker
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Speaker
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