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The Brand Problem Most Schools Don't Know They Have
28 Plays20 days ago
If your enrollment numbers are stalling, the instinct is to spend more on marketing. More ads. More campaigns. More budget.
But what if that's the wrong problem to solve?
In this episode, Ashley sits down with Ryan Morabito — brand strategist and partner to 125+ colleges and universities including NYU, Marquette, and Baylor — to talk about why so many institutions are treating the symptom instead of the cause, and what the schools that are actually thriving are doing differently.
What you'll hear in this episode:
- Why marketing is the icing and branding is the cake — and what that means for your enrollment strategy
- The difference between branding and marketing and why confusing the two is one of the most expensive mistakes in higher ed
- What silos are actually costing your institution and how thriving schools have moved from cooperation to true collaboration
- The one sentence from a real student that is the entire enrollment playbook
- Why students are the heroes of the story and what student centered storytelling actually looks like in practice
- A 3 step framework for meaningful brand change you can start applying right now
Connect with Ryan: LinkedIn: Ryan Morabito Five Degrees Branding: 5degreesbranding.com
Connect with Ashley + Onya: LinkedIn: Ashley Monk onyamark.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Ryan Morabito and His Expertise
00:00:45
Speaker
All right, everyone. Well, I am so excited for this episode on the On Your Mic podcast because today we have Ryan Morabito on the show. And if you don't know Ryan, you need to in the education world because Ryan is a brand expert with over two decades of experience. And he's partnered with institutions like NYU, Marquette, Baylor, Old Dominion, and over a hundred and 125 other public and private colleges and universities, which is just unheard of. And so what I love and i appreciate so much about Ryan is that he's intentional. He's a creative thinker, but he is a proven leader and his LinkedIn content and his track record speaks to it at delivering high quality market research initiatives, optimizing brain awareness and developing strategic models that focus on operational efforts and ultimately drive results for institutions, which I know is what we're all after. Although he has over 12,000 followers on LinkedIn and has garnered over 2 million views. So Ryan, welcome to the show. I'm so excited that you're here.
00:01:48
Speaker
Well, what a great introduction, Ashley. Really excited to talk with you. And I have great empathy and appreciation for folks that are are serving in these enrollment and marketing types ah of of roles. So I'm excited to talk with you.
00:02:05
Speaker
Likewise. And I think we'd start no further than the story of you've gone into this, because it's not every day that you meet someone in the industry that has worked with over
Ryan's Career Journey in Higher Education
00:02:16
Speaker
125 institutions. So I would love for everyone listening to hear your background and what brought you into the education space.
00:02:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's even hard for me to say, Ashley, I can't believe I've been at it over three decades, over 30 years now, and started off as a director of marketing at a small private institution. um um I really didn't know exactly ah what I was doing at that time, but had great mentors and people that believed in me. And um and then here I am 30 years later. um i think what I can bring to your audience and I bring to colleges and universities is that pattern recognition.
00:02:53
Speaker
There's tremendous competition for from students, tremendous competition for financial support and being helpful, maybe serving as an inspiration and and an expert to our college campuses. I'm still really passionate about and yeah, I'm excited to share some of that with your guests today.
00:03:12
Speaker
Just incredible. And I have to know, did you wake up one day and you were like, I'm going to go into education? Because I feel like this industry, we all have this unique and roundabout way to how we end up. um I know there's some of us that have entered this industry and it's like, yes, I knew at one point that I was going to be in the education space. But I would love to know, too, what that moment was like for you.
00:03:30
Speaker
Yeah, I actually didn't. um I thought when I had started out at ah a college that that might be a one time, maybe ah a stepping stone to to working in ah a for profit environment or working at an agency. But I loved the the transformation, Ashley. um Higher ed is an industry
Marketing vs Branding in Education
00:03:50
Speaker
in crisis.
00:03:50
Speaker
We know there's a lot of negativity out there and it still pales in comparison to the transformational impact these universities and institutions have on students. And so having worked at one institution and then becoming a consultant so where I worked with a variety of different schools, early on community colleges that were just starting to think about marketing more intentionally, large universities. Rutgers was one of my first clients I worked with and the complexity of a a multifaceted institution like theirs. But I fell in love with it. And to this day, I don't think there's a ah better opportunity for marketers to come in and and strengthen a school's image and reputation. And recognize um how we and what we asked of our marketing leaders even 10 years ago is very different than what we're asking today. And it's about reputation management. It's about helping our leadership um colleagues and um and telling our story and and what we know is a really competitive climate.
00:04:58
Speaker
Oh, couldn't agree more. It's changed drastically. And we know marketing really is the heartbeat of so many different brands and organizations and education is no exception. And I think now more than ever, it's not only just about getting in front of the right people. It's about making sure that students are recommitted to the mission and the vision of what education stands for. And
Foundations of a Strong Brand
00:05:19
Speaker
I think so much of that is really the heart and the root of branding, which is what I'm so excited to talk about and by the way plug for five degrees team we've gotten a partner together on so many different um clients in the higher education space and it's just incredible the work that we're doing and really that is really where i want to start because you know what ryan i think so many institutions come and think we have a marketing problem and while i know that's something here at anya that we love to help and we love to support a lot of times marketing is a symptom of branding and really at the core i think about marketing like the icing and the cake but branding is the cake and you can't add icing and you can't add sprinkles if that cake isn't there i mean you can but you might get a sugar hot here too much and so i would love to know too when institutions are saying we need more leads what are maybe some of the subtle signals here that branding not just marketing execution is actually the real bottleneck
00:06:17
Speaker
Yeah, Ashley, and we see it probably far too often on campuses. And we developed these higher ed marketing truths about three years ago now to bridge the gap of understanding that exists on so many campuses. And part of that gap of understanding is common language.
00:06:35
Speaker
um if your audience is familiar with the four p's of marketing it's our product which is the programs and services we offer it's our price uh place not only our physical location but our delivery modality and then promotion what 99 of people think of when they think of marketing so i've watched schools painfully ashley um really just solely invest in promotion And we can invest millions of dollars, but if we don't have programs that are viable, if we don't have delivery modalities that our audiences are looking for and have a strong value proposition, all the promotion in the world won't help us move the needle on those metrics that are most important to us. so That's one of the things when I'm entering into conversations is looking probably much more holistically than just ah how schools are promoting themselves. And I know you're passionate and care deeply about serving these enrollment teams. And one thing that we recognize is the most successful brands are built from the inside. And because we have so much high expectations in terms of what we're asking our team to do, Oftentimes we lose sight about the power and the importance of internal marketing. So when we think of brand, it's not our logo, it's not our mascot, it's not our
Collaboration Between Marketing and Branding
00:07:57
Speaker
tagline.
00:07:58
Speaker
It's all the associations people make of our institution. And branding is the process of influencing those associations. And so when I think about expectations, Ashley, another area that there's a a gap. People have very unrealistic expectations around how soon a campaign is going to make an impact or how soon we can start to turn things around.
00:08:23
Speaker
And so if we think of branding as the reason why people choose us and marketing is how they find us, we recognize that branding takes a concerted effort to build trust, to build familiarity, to build awareness. Many leaders I talk to want to become the preferred brand, but that doesn't happen in days or weeks. and In many cases, it doesn't happen in months. It takes years to change those perceptions and how people associate our institution. So we've got to have some honest conversations around what our brand is, what are barriers ah to enrollment, and recognize there's a lot of choices out there for both traditional students and adult learners.
00:09:09
Speaker
Oh, there's so much to unpack behind what you said. And I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of mic drop moments throughout the course. yes But you're right. It doesn't um it doesn't just take it. It's always I think what they say about trust is it takes years to build and second to destroy it. But I believe that is one of the most important and it's never been and more important now than ever. I think especially in the realm of education is because really we we sell trust as ah as institutions and when at the end of the day it's not only that someone is going to come and are they going to get a great education at your institution absolutely but they have to know why they belong what they believe and to be able to really form and forge those connections and your belief that doesn't happen overnight number one number two no amount of marketing messages can reinforce an inconsistent brand and we have to have brand at the heartbeat of all of those functions so that students know not only why they go but also for retention right once we get them there we've got to keep them there and that happens when brand is consistent and so i would love to know though too i'm sure that you've probably seen it having been around the block a time or two um that's a drastic understatement again if you're skimming around on this episode and didn't get to hear
00:10:22
Speaker
Right, it's mobile. But I think so often at institutions, I've seen a few things happen, and I'm sure that you can speak to two. Number one is when marketing but and branding are treated as separate functions. So to where maybe marketing is overseeing signage, athletics, wayfinding, some of those other elements, but not...
00:10:39
Speaker
looped in with enrollment. And then number two, when marketing is siloed or even put on focus more than branding, where do you, um why do you think in higher education that the functions are treated sometimes separately? And then what happens to enrollment as a result of that?
00:10:55
Speaker
Yeah, Ashley, it's such an important point. And one of our truths is the importance of building these bridges and tearing down these debilitating silos. And for the most part, ah very well-intentioned people, um they resort to their own bunkers. They've got unrealistic expectations, really high workloads. And so what happens is is as much as they might want to be able to bridge that gap, they go back and they concentrate and focus on those things in their individual area. And what we recognize is the more silos we turn ah down and the more integrated we are, the better opportunity we have for people to be able to to hear our story. And folks who have been
Branding's Impact on Student Choices
00:11:40
Speaker
in higher ed recognize, and particularly at tuition-driven schools, we better have a strong partnership ah with enrollment.
00:11:48
Speaker
and um And what I see oftentimes, Ashley, is there might be cooperation, but there's not true collaboration. And when I watch the the correlation with thriving institutions, ah they're in lockstep. There's a very strong understanding in terms of not only what prospective students are looking for but also the understanding of the power of influencers for a long time our research has talked and solidified how important parents are for traditional age students and years ago we could say our institution has really strong outcomes now those parents want it broken down by their son or daughter's major they want very specific and kind concrete examples um that reinforce their value proposition.
00:12:38
Speaker
And because there's so much competition for students and financial support, some schools have made promises that they have never been truly able to deliver on. So to your point about retention, branding should be slightly aspirational.
00:12:53
Speaker
We wanna create a compelling vision but we better have an infrastructure and a culture that can deliver on those promises. and But when I look at institutions that are just doing some really incredible things, there's intentionality at the highest level um about moving away from cooperation and collaborating with our on-campus partners.
00:13:15
Speaker
Oh, you're spot on. I mean, there's so many things to unpack from your response. And I think number one, like you said, is that they have to work together because I think one challenge with institutions as well is we almost have, um I speak like I'm on the other side, but when you see an institution, you see what's happening internally, there's so much jargon, I think, that is thrown around. And a lot of that jargon isn't necessarily what students are aspiring to hear in the way that they're communicating about coming on campus. And to your point, when those silos exist and are not broken down, the way that and brand again is part of it's all about that identity of how an institution presents itself and when the way that that is defined internally is not congruent with how prospective students are describing there is a big disconnect in i loved what you said about marketing being how
00:14:03
Speaker
how we find people, but really branding is what what is keeping you. We can, when I think about the differentiator of when, because we're on the top, the one side of it, right? We're focused. um The work that we're doing on on is how are we getting enough inquiries? Are we able to increase yield? But we're finding people at the end of the day, if one person is faced between institution a institution B, and institution C, it's not us getting them to the admissions team that is going to ultimately sign them. It is that student's experience with the brand and the way that that institution has communicated about what they do that is going to incentivize them to say. So everything that you've said, I couldn't think would be more spot on. So to get a little bit tactical as well, want to know, and I'm curious, I'm assuming the answer is all of the above, but I would love to know from your perspective, what do you feel like this, probably the most important elements that branding unlocks for marketing performance? Is it RFIs? Is it applications? Is it yield or even student quality? i imagine it's all of those things, but I would love to even hear maybe some specific examples of where, Yes, like with branding will just absolutely really support um the yield, the retention and what you've seen in all of your years of experience.
00:15:17
Speaker
Yeah, and it's so funny. It is all the above ah for the reasons you can appreciate, Ashley. And when we read ah about some struggling institution, the closing of some of these private institutions, the other side of that is there's some very strong and compelling brands that are doing amazing work. um Their enrollment numbers are off the charts. People want to give to organizations that are thriving. and In my home state here of North Carolina, um I look at my 16-year-old daughter and the affinity schools like UNC Chapel Hill, Wake Forest University. these really strong brands that transcend time, that transcend leadership changes, and it makes everyone's job contextually easier when we have that brand strength. And
Student-Centered Branding Strategies
00:16:05
Speaker
again, these schools have been building um these brands, not for weeks, not for years, but for decades, and and in some cases, much longer than that.
00:16:16
Speaker
um You can look at some institutions um like University of South Florida, who's doing incredibly well, and that's maybe only has like a 60 year history, but have been very intentional about motivating and inspiring their community and creating a demand that they've been able to move outside their region. So when I think about recruiters, when I think about people in admissions, our jobs are never easy. But the stronger our brand is, the easier that work, the easier it is to connote a strong value proposition with that name recognition behind us.
00:16:56
Speaker
And again, in some cases, when we bring in new leadership, we're not going to develop a really strong brand in a period of three or six months. What we can do is to start to change the conversation around what a strong brand consists of.
00:17:12
Speaker
And again, that foundation is starting from the inside and really creating brand ambassadors with our faculty and staff. I can tell you believe in the power of of students and and their voice in selecting an institution. And when we do research with prospective students, they want to hear from current students.
00:17:34
Speaker
you know, authenticity has been this kind of buzzword over the last few years in higher ed marketing and authenticity means telling our stories of students and telling enough of them so my age doesn't matter, my gender doesn't matter, my skin color doesn't matter. I know that I can find my place at that institution and thrive. And I've been presented with examples of people who have had some of those same transformational experiences.
00:18:03
Speaker
so good oh it's so true as well and i think too i know there's one institution too that comes to mind and i'm just thinking of a story and to elaborate and kind of articulate your point and even bring it close to home it's just crazy where students at the end of the day they want to be bought in they want to be able to own the process and they're going to have their own language in the way especially with traditional undergraduate students too they're coming in there's so much changes and i'm sure we've all everyone listening to this has read up to on the changes from generation to generation to generation and how how different that looks. But really, when I think of brand too, it's to your point, it's the words that the students are using to describe their experience that they want to hear from. And I know two use cases of brand coming to life that we've seen. One is with an institution that really invested heavily in their
00:18:53
Speaker
um their own videography. So basically they did a campaign and they did a project to really survey 10 stories of students that have just thrived on campus and what that looked like. And when they ran that video as an ad campaign, and focusing on brand from the realm of the student experience and not how it was defined internally, that video was one of the top performing ad creatives and drove the majority of their request for inquiries because it told the story and it wasn't the institution sharing about the institution. It was the students. And that, I think, is what people grasp onto. And then the other is the way that students even define and search for programs. So if we think, like you said, part of brand is that product and offering. And for most institutions, that's our program. So are they relevant? Are they and is it not only the best education, but is it what students are actively looking for? And even I think about
00:19:42
Speaker
I noticed for us in a use case to where one of the recommendations that we had had for an institution was um the way they had defined this program was different than what we noticed was trending for search inquiries and what other students were looking for and the way other institutions had named it. And so I commend this institution because they decided to change the name and immediately that one nuance of the brand and really really listening to that student feedback that program went from underperforming to overperforming and just a matter of weeks because it was what the market was asking for um so these tweaks are so subtle and so nuanced that i think often they get overlooked but as both of us have experienced they make all of the difference it's just are we able to listen and break down those silos to pay attention
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's so true, Ashley. And some schools have figured it out, but students are the heroes of our story and not the institution. And um I love being on campuses. I think it keeps me a ah younger and connected to kind to kind of the today's students. and
AI in Education and Understanding Student Needs
00:20:45
Speaker
and um you know some of the challenges and opportunities they have. and and This one student, I asked him, I said, so why did you ultimately select this school? and Without hesitation, he said, wherever else I went and visited, it was about them. and When I came to this school, it was about me and what my interests were. and It sounds simple, Ashley, but it's a fundamental difference, again, of putting the students um as the focal point and sharing with them um other students who have gone and really thrived. and When we think about how AI is changing our world and in ways we cannot even probably fully imagine or appreciate, um human psychology and human behavior doesn't change. you know people want to belong people want to feel you know comfortable in terms of the environment that they're entering so the more we're able to do that um you know even at the prospect stage and kind of sharing what that experience is i just saw on linkedin the other day a school where a student was asking about the residential experience and they picked up their phone, they did a FaceTime call and walked them through those areas so that they had that sense and were able to to kind of put themselves you know there. And when you think about adult students, Ashley, who are the new majority of education, Because we're such an industry of late adopters, schools are really struggling trying to adjust to the needs and interest of adult learners.
00:22:18
Speaker
People always ask about an elevator speech and my response is it depends on who we're riding in the elevator with. And so when you think about graduates, when you think about adult students, we need to be prepared to speak more of their language. If it's a fully online program, our beautiful campus is going to have less of an impact on the decision of a prospective graduate student. And we need to tailor our marketing and communication so that we have a better of our opportunity for our story to resonate.
00:22:50
Speaker
Oh, I couldn't agree more. it's so different. And being able to, as you just said, I think of, I know for myself, I finished the majority of my degree online. And to your point, the institution that won me over was the one focusing on career outcomes, salary progression, the ease of the class schedule and structure for me to be able to work full time to finish as and a non-traditional student. And so you're spot on. If I would have been served messages of,
00:23:17
Speaker
campus photography and what that would look like and that experience it would have just completely changed their trajectory so now this conversation think desert maybe it deserves a part two hopefully everyone listening i'm sure will let us know because i have so much more to ask you and so many more follow-up questions But to kind of close out our time and leave you with this, what would you say and what would your words of wisdom? So I'm sure listening, we're going have some enrollment professionals, marketing professionals listening and that are probably so inspired by everything that you've shared about brand. But let's say that there's someone listening on the marketing enrollment side that.
00:23:50
Speaker
It's just maybe unsure of what even their first step is. If they're thinking, OK, we have a brand. Every institution, whether we like it or not, has a brand. It's just, is it the one that's attracting and clear your ideal students? And if they're wrestling with, goodness, I don't know if it is, what are maybe the first couple of steps that they could take as they digest this conversation to really try to make a meaningful change at their institution?
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah, um so I would probably start with is um how well do we know our audience? um Schools move really fast and when we start to kind of look at those foundational elements for a thriving brand, we have to start with people's perceptions. Ashley, we know that people's behaviors are based on their perception of reality and not reality itself. And sometimes I think that we're too insular that we look and we think we might know, but being able to collect and analyze that information that gets at those market perceptions and understand how big is this kind of gap of what we think and how people love perceive us and what do they actually think. And
Social Media's Role in Branding
00:25:01
Speaker
so that's a great starting place is, and the data becomes diffusing when we're asking for more resources, when we're talking about the time element to develop a successful brand, Let's start with knowing and having the information about that current reality.
00:25:17
Speaker
and Then I think the next step is what many people probably think of as brand positioning. and I call that our strategic narrative. Do we have a North Star that is guiding all of our marketing and communication? And because we have so much turnover on our client campuses, if we do this right, there should be able to transcend time and leadership changes.
00:25:41
Speaker
That our strategic narrative is based on our mission and why we were founded and what we ultimately want our institution to be known for. And thriving colleges and universities have that very clear North Star. And then we move into the creative execution.
00:25:57
Speaker
What are the words and pictures that are going to motivate these audiences to a call to action? And being able to understand creativity is our superpower. In a sea of sameness, having really strong creative and messaging that tells these authentic student stories. that showcases outcomes in very compelling and meaningful ways. um And without that clear foundation, all the tactics in the world, Ashley, won't make up for a flawed strategy or not having um a clear way of how we're positioning ourselves.
00:26:33
Speaker
And the last thing I'll say is schools, I think, still underappreciate the power of social media. When I watch the lack of investment for schools that continue to think, I think, very short term. Thriving schools are investing mightily. They're telling these stories. and They're developing these kind of internal media companies that are able to shoot video, that are able to have compelling photography. all being used to share in an extremely authentic way who we are and the value that we present.
00:27:09
Speaker
But far too often, I think schools are penny wise and pound foolish. And social media is a great way to kind of share our story in an authentic way. and we recognize people follow people more than new organizations. So having student ambassadors, lifting up faculty and their expertise, and how much they care about these student experiences. um When we talk, hopefully on an ongoing basis, schools will recognize the power and the return on the investment as they're more intentional with the opportunity social media presents.
00:27:48
Speaker
Oh, incredible,
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:27:49
Speaker
Ryan. I can't think of a better note to end on. This is an episode, if you are listening, that I think you might need to re-listen to handful of times, as I know I will, based on some of the insights that you've shared with us, Ryan. Thank you so much for your time. Before we wrap up this conversation, would encourage everyone listening to look into Ryan and the Five Degrees team. But Ryan, where is the best place that everyone can connect with you, to follow you, and to stay in touch with you?
00:28:14
Speaker
Well, i really enjoyed it, Ashley. Thank you so much for the opportunity to talk to your listeners and LinkedIn um is a great way. I try to post there regularly and we need to have these conversations with our campus partners so that we can celebrate success. We can create realistic expectations together, but send me a connection request on LinkedIn and look forward to seeing you there.
00:28:39
Speaker
Amazing. Ryan, thank you so much again for coming on the show. Enjoyed it. Thank you, Ashley.