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69. How Experience Shapes the Way We Train and Make Decisions
67 Plays4 days ago
In Episode 69, Matt and Austin explore how real-world experience, hard calls, mentorship, and recognizing what you don't know can shape the way firefighters train and make decisions.
They discuss the experiences that influenced Austin's approach to the fire service, along with stress response, cognitive load, skill acquisition, and the progression from mechanics to consistency to intensity.
A conversation about learning from experience and building better training methodologies for performance under stress.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorships
00:00:00
Speaker
This episode of the Fire Dog Podcast is supported by AOS Services, the one-stop shop for firefighting equipment compliance built for the DoD. At AOS Services, they help military fire departments stay mission-ready with customized programs that bundle everything from SCBAs and compressors to hoses, ladders, PPE care, rescue gear, and more.
00:00:17
Speaker
Their teams work worldwide, so whether you're stateside or overseas, they've got you covered. For all your firefighting equipment compliance needs, visit aosservicesinc.com to learn more.
00:00:29
Speaker
This episode of the Fire Dog Podcast is supported by Roll Call Coins, founded by a 24-year Air Force firefighter veteran. They understand that a coin represents more than just an event. It represents a story.
00:00:40
Speaker
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Importance of Real-World Experience in Firefighting
00:01:13
Speaker
Welcome, my name is Matt Wilson and thank you for listening to episode 69 of the Fire Dog Podcast. Today's episode explores how real world experience and recognizing the limits of your own knowledge can fundamentally change the way you approach training and decision making.
00:01:28
Speaker
Our new co-host Austin recounts some calls he's encountered so far throughout his career, from significant vehicle accidents and structure fires to aircraft crashes and fatal incidents.
00:01:38
Speaker
But this conversation isn't about the calls, it's about how those experiences exposed gaps in training, shaped Austin's approach to learning and influence the way he thinks about developing firefighters and preparing them to perform under stress, and We discuss stress response, cognitive load, skill acquisition, and why effective training should progress from mechanics to consistency to intensity.
Career Reflections and Podcasting Passion
00:02:00
Speaker
Whether you're a firefighter, an instructor, an officer, this conversation offers lessons that can be applied to the way you train, prepare, and make decisions when it matters most. It is my pleasure to highlight the experiences of our new co-host, Austin Perry.
00:02:14
Speaker
What's up, Austin? What's going on, Matt? I'm happy to be on here with you in Austin and Matt host only episode for the first time with Austin Perry and myself.
00:02:26
Speaker
It's been a while, and actually. have Yeah, man, it has been a while. Life gets in the way. You procrastinate. When I say you procrastinate, I mean i procrastinate. Oh, I'm right there with you, big dog.
00:02:38
Speaker
We're making it happen. As we were talking before, um before the show, but trying to coordinate between three people sometimes is it? the easiest thing to do no man and i think most listeners probably understand with life uh things are tough but we're keeping the podcast rolling happy to have you on it as a host man i'm hoping to uh pass the baton man you know what i'm saying oh yeah keep keep this thing rolling you know As I fade off into the sunset, potentially. Yeah, in the twilight of europe of your podcasting days. But yeah, kind of the point, I guess, more or less, we do have a topic picked out. But ah just to come on here and say what's up and um kind of, I guess, more or less share with the listeners of like the the vision moving forward and kind of like why...
00:03:28
Speaker
kind of like why enjoyed or wanted to get into podcasting ah was actually really just because I've learned so much from, you know, fire service podcasts and had a big impact on my career.
00:03:43
Speaker
um So the chance to be able to do that, especially for a our career field is pretty cool. Yeah, it's one of those mediums that's just it's necessary. You what I'm saying? Like people are using and to help them with their lives and in their jobs. It's like, to me, a podcast is kind of that kind of technology where it's like, you gotta get on board with it. You know what mean? Like, 1000%.
00:04:10
Speaker
It's like, it's good news, basically. it's It's like, yeah, It's a modern day equivalent reading
Audiobooks vs. Physical Books: A Debate
00:04:16
Speaker
a book. I mean, reading a book is still relevant and still, you can still do that. People can still write their thoughts. You go read what they have to say. Here's another way to consume other people's thoughts, you know, um except there's no real quality assurance. you know i'm saying? We could just get on here and say whatever we want, but.
00:04:32
Speaker
But it's cool, man. You can live vicariously through others, hear their experiences in the fire service. What kind of calls do they go on? What do they know? I mean, I think, you know, most people know that inherently.
00:04:44
Speaker
Yeah. I'm laughing to myself because ah I was just talking to somebody at work about reading books and stuff. And I've Recently, as I've gotten older, kind of had to force myself into getting into readings, not necessarily my favorite thing. um But I was like, if I really want to pay attention and really let it sink in, I'll listen to the audio book while I have the actual physical copy in front of myself. Have somebody read it for you?
00:05:10
Speaker
Dude, I'm so ADHD sometimes. I'm like, I have to read a page three times to actually make it stick. So like when I have it, yeah, when I have that in my ear, it makes it kind of stick to the wall a little bit better.
00:05:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a, I mean, you're you're just a product of the times, right?
Balancing Air Force and Firefighting Roles
00:05:26
Speaker
i we ah We're so used to kind of the instantaneous, don't want to gratification, but instantaneous results. The internet and social media and everything is instantaneous, man. We could go down the street and get whatever we need at the store, right? So when you got to take the time to read word for word versus somebody reading it to you,
00:05:45
Speaker
you know, I don't know. So I, I forced myself personally to read books. feel like I get more out of it. You know, I've talked to some close friends who um'm I'm like, who ask, do you do the audio books? And of course I have, and i I, still do, but they do it exclusively. I'm like, how do you, can you pay attention the whole time? Like, Oh no, I probably pick up about 80% of it or 70% it or whatever the case. I'm like, man, I want to get a hundred percent of it. You know, like I want to maximize the effectiveness. And so I got, I got to sit down with no distractions.
00:06:14
Speaker
I can't listen to audio books when I'm running, when I'm walking. Like I just, cause I'm looking at other things. I'm distracted with my thoughts. I have to sit down with a book and read it, man. That's just my personal thing. Um, but if I really want I'd just get out and, uh, start highlighting, make it stick.
00:06:31
Speaker
Just highlight the page. Yeah. Well, that, that, that was a good chapter, man. But yeah, no, I agree for sure. For, um, kind of going off on a side tangent, but yeah, if I really like want it to stick, even with like, uh, stuff at work, man, like packages or stuff that I'm reading, if I really need to like concentrate on, I'll print it out.
00:06:53
Speaker
I'll print it out. Cause reading off a screen just doesn't do it for me. There's nothing better than the hard copy. I sound old when I say that, but, you know, i Paper, man.
00:07:04
Speaker
I tried it even back in my company officer NCO days. I tried the digital stuff, and that was a thing 10 years ago, right? um And I tried it, I did it, and I always end up coming back. I always end up printing the stuff out, you know what i mean? So...
00:07:19
Speaker
I don't know. Maybe it's just me. Bring back paper checkout sheets, dude. Hashtag. I'm going to make a ah hat or something that says that because I hate this digital digital stuff. It's too easy, Yeah, PS tracks and all that.
00:07:33
Speaker
Dude drives me crazy. They're just fucking doop, doop, doop. Yeah, you can sit in the kitchen with your legs up and just... Mm-hmm. I guess you could theoretically take the notebook and do the same thing with a pen.
00:07:44
Speaker
but Yeah, but i just I don't know. Maybe I'm biased because that's how it was when I was a brand new guy too, but had to get the little clipboard out there and go through each compartment and check it. And it was like oddly satisfying to do that as well.
00:07:58
Speaker
But some technology is good, some... Like podcasts. yeah it's It's one of those steps forward that actually is beneficial.
00:08:09
Speaker
Again, you can live vicariously through people. um So here we are, man. We're going to talk about what you have in store for us. Yeah, man. ah So just like a brief little intro. I've obviously been on a couple times. People hopefully might know who I am. um But as far as like kind of like pre-military ah life, just a brief little synopsis and then kind of get into, you know, everyone probably knows where I've only been a two bases, but kind of get into some of the stuff that I got into at Shaw and Ielson.
00:08:44
Speaker
And then, um which kind of really led me to looking at some like instruction, um some training methodologies and, you know, how to just really start to study some of those things of how to be like a better coach, um a better, ah better trainer. And then also kind of some of the decision making, you know, that I get a nerd out on some of that stuff. Um, but it really has come from real, real instances or real experiences that I've reflected on to kind of, you know, lead me down that path.
Mentorship and Humility in Fire Service
00:09:20
Speaker
Um, so starting off basically pre-military, so I was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
00:09:26
Speaker
um I lived there for about three or four years, and then moved back to Memphis, Tennessee, where I pretty much spent the rest of my, um until I was like 19. Yeah, because I joined the Air Force at right at 20. So I live with just my dad, single single parent, grew up playing sports, the uh, normal run in the mill. I wrestled for a year. I played football was my main sport. Um, played that since I was in like 10, I think, uh, played all the way through high school. Um, and then I played basketball on the side just for fun.
00:10:02
Speaker
Um, for church league, just for me and my buddies got a team to get. Yeah, man, it's good stuff. Um, but mostly contact sports were kind of my jam.
00:10:13
Speaker
Um, and then ah kind of really banked on going to school, believe it or not. Didn't really know what I wanted to do. ah they had no clear path to the military, although it's very deep in my family. um you know Both my granddads were World War II veterans. um um ah Most of my cousins have served in the Air Force. my One of my cousins is a retired senior master sergeant, boom operator. um
00:10:43
Speaker
Had another cousin that was an Air Force ah medic. So, Anyways, uh, so that's kind of like where the ideas. Yep. Kind of stem from. Um, and so anyways, when school didn't pan out and it turns out that, uh, colleges aren't really looking for five, seven, somebody with CT, CT.
00:11:04
Speaker
Yeah. Five, seven white guys that play a strong safety. Um, um, That kind of just like I was just kind of bouncing around from job to job. um Ended up getting in some unofficial trouble, which is ah luckily didn't hinder my ah path to the military. But that was kind of like really the turning point of like I need to start doing something with my life. Um, so then I basically said I need to get out, uh, for you people that don't know, Memphis is kind of a little bit of a rough city. ah so I needed to get out of that environment. And, um, so my mom lives in Colorado and I hit her up and she was like more than happy to, ah you know, me and my mom have a good relationship. You know, I would go visit my whole life and whatnot, just never officially lived with her. Um, so she was more than happy to take me on and then kind of help me. i mean, day one, um, which shout out to mom too, like day one off the plane, taking me to the recruiting office and getting that whole fit.
00:12:06
Speaker
Oh yeah. She was, she wasn't playing her around. Um, so yeah. Anyways, ah you know, then transitioning, made it through, do basic, do tech school, just the same as anyone. um And then landed my first base at Shaw Air Force Base in 2016. then I from there right.
00:12:30
Speaker
in two thousand and twenty three yes i did seven write at seven years or i think it was just shy of seven years six and some change I think I think I was maybe like a couple weeks from doing seven years at Shaw um loved every minute of it man um I ah truly actually went through and deleted every assignment preference off my dream sheet because It was it was Shaw or Die, man, for a long time. And I think any anybody that has ever been stationed there or has met someone that's been stationed there can kind of contest to that mindset. um
00:13:11
Speaker
It can be. It can be good, but it can also be a little bit arrogant sometimes, but it's a good Yeah, there's couple places like that out there if you do time there. The experience is great.
00:13:25
Speaker
ah You almost forget the, don't want to say you forget, but the other responsibilities of an Air Force firefighter kind of go to the wayside, right? Like, um you know, we've all been through that, I think, depending on where you've been stationed, but.
00:13:40
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's easy to overlook when you're viewing that from that lens to of like people don't know what they don't know. And um it's not necessarily their fault that they haven't had the same experience that you have. um And so it took me a long time to understand that and get that message through my head. um but Well, here's the thing, man. A young 20-year-old people, right, first experience quote-unquote adults,
00:14:10
Speaker
um They join the Air Force. They're thrusted into the fire service in the Air Force. And we do all hazard response. We're a fire department just as much as um i mean ah municipality is a fire department, right? So you invest so much of your time through good certifications and through training and effort that wearing a uniform is almost...
00:14:36
Speaker
uh, it's almost tertiary to what you're doing day to day, right? I'm trying to be the best firefighter. I'm responding on trucks every day. Like I'm working 48 hours on 48 hours off, just like any other firefighter. I just so happened to be in a uniform, right? So I don't, I don't blame anybody for falling into that mind frame because they've invested in trying to be the best firefighter.
00:14:58
Speaker
Um, so it's completely understandable to me. Um, Whereas the Marine Corps, I think, is better with the service connectedness because they, from day one, tell them that you're a Marine first and you just so happen to be a firefighter as a side hustle, right? So it's just a little bit different. I think that makes us potentially more well-rounded firefighters as Air Force firefighters.
00:15:23
Speaker
um But, of course, it comes at cost. You know what I mean? like Yeah. The Air Force becomes your side hustle. It's a very, yeah and you've talked about it multiple times. I think it's so, it's ah it's an age-old struggle of balancing those two things. And um it's it can be difficult sometimes. And trying to...
00:15:44
Speaker
when one starts to tip the scale, you got to kind of try and bring it back, um, and balance it out. Yeah. I could talk in Nauseam about it, man. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a good topic. Uh, but jumping back to, you know, showing up as a new guy at Shaw,
00:16:00
Speaker
um I didn't really know, which is funny because I'm like so encapsulated and probably maybe borderline have a unhealthy obsession with it now currently, but um didn't really know what the fire service was at all or had.
00:16:20
Speaker
I'm a first generation firefighter. I don't have any family members that are remotely close to it didn't have really any understanding of like what it really even meant to be in the fire service so then just getting thrusted into Shaw like you said of like being at one of these high typo bases of like I never thought in a million years at 20 years old that I would be, you know, learning how to, you know,
Major Incidents and Learning at Shaw
00:16:47
Speaker
egress pilots and shut down F-16s and responding to house fires and cutting people out of cars and responding to CPRs. And like, you know, just the tempo was just so like crazy off, off, off rip, which was, but within that, and within that environment, like it really made me love, love it. Like, you know,
00:17:11
Speaker
And then, um, I really truly too, I mean, I can't thank these guys enough, but like I had some of the best like fire, like fire, fire oriented mentors that a young airman could really have, man. Like, um, you know, captain Nick Myers, um,
00:17:30
Speaker
old wit dawson was a lieutenant at the time and um my station captain mike lube man they those guys were awesome um they really really like showed me what good information was uh led me to like you know anytime i had a question or there would be multiple times where like you know i would be curious about a subject and wit would be like you need to listen to this guy and that dude's just the subject matter expert on like whatever whatever topic it is. And so like, just really, and then like, kind of really showing you like what a good coach is like.
00:18:06
Speaker
And so like when you can start to like, differentiate when someone really knows what they're talking about. And when someone's just kind of like trying to because maybe they're in a position of authority, um which is You know, can be it's good to know because you obviously want to know when someone's maybe not being ah up as upfront with their experience or not. But it also that's dangerous for a young airman to kind of become a little bit arrogant. So I was a little bit of a knucklehead when I was a senior airman. It's part of it, man.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah. So nobody's born with humility. It's something that you learn. You know i mean? You got to be taught in some cases. Your boss taught me some hum humility when I got back from my first deployment, put me in a, stuck me in old dispatch to knock the ego down a little bit, but I need, shout out to chief Tross. I needed that little, that little knockdown.
00:19:01
Speaker
Um, but, uh, went though. He really pressed me to, or encouraged me to be a volunteer firefighter too, which I, um I really benefit or I kind of like contribute that to being in like one of the best decisions I ever made. Um, and he would just always refer to like Hey, it's just sets and reps, man. It's just more sets. It's more reps, more calls. And so, you know, i did that for six years. Um, so I just basically was already at a high tempo base and just doubled my, my call, call volume at ah e a, at a,
00:19:35
Speaker
very young age. And, you know, the way that that system kind of works too, is I just have my little pager and I have my little, my little bunker, bunker pants and a coat and helmet and my trunk of my car or the bed of my truck. And i would just pull up in someone's front lawn to their house being on fire or just pull off on the side of the road and then like go cut somebody out of a car. Like, so I really only, I could basically embrace the jolly volley culture,
00:20:02
Speaker
Oh, for sure. It's so much light on the truck, too. No, I never got that deep, but I definitely did not ah not abide by some traffic law. So I would always do the classic like I would just draft up behind the engine and I would just follow them to the call if I could. um But.
00:20:23
Speaker
Yeah, man, it was a it's a good time. And so I guess what I was getting at, though, is I could just I could pick what calls I wanted to go to. And so like I already respond to fire alarms and maybe this is a bad mindset, but this was just I'm a career guy. um So like I didn't necessarily need to like go to medical calls and go to like, you know,
00:20:46
Speaker
fire alarms and in some of the low maybe lower hanging fruit um but you know if somebody was trapped in a car or if it was confirmed fire like i was i was going and so that was a lot of fun man um also with the shawl too i got to kind of in you maybe uh got to I hear all the the old heads talk about the rescue truck era and like the ah the golden age golden days and when the Air Force used to run rescue and all that. But I really did feel like I got to live the kind of tail end of that era um because that was one of the hot trucks at that base for sure. um Kind of had an accelerated
00:21:30
Speaker
progression more or less um yeah as most bases that have mutual aid typically those positions are like sought after and um they you know chiefs got to like burn sage and like say throw some holy water on you and stuff before you're allowed to go outside the gate Um, but we had some guys get in trouble and we had some guys get out and it was kind of like, well, who, who's going to be the guy. and so I got lucky. Um, I got to go to rescue tech as a, as a one striper, believe it or not. Um, which is tip, not usually typical. I don't even think I had my five level yet. I just was lucky to draw.
00:22:13
Speaker
Um, And so anyway, so they kind of started looking at me for that and, um, entrusted me with, uh, being the primary driver. So I pretty much did that for like four, four or five years. to Just wouldn't say I was always on it, but there was a good 90% chance of like, you looked at the schedule. If it wasn't a Kelly day, you know, shift or something like that, that I was going to be driving, driving the rescue truck with, you know, whatever officer.
00:22:43
Speaker
Well, it's a testament to to your work ethic, your ability. You know, they they want someone capable in that truck. That's how it was, at least. It's funny that you mentioned that you were one-striper in Rescue Tech. Man, I went as a two-striper.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah. At the time. Yeah. My, it was similar. It worked out similarly to how yours worked out. There was a, they had a ah legitimate like priority listing for formal training where I was stationed for these formal training courses, right? Like if we get slots, here's who's going one, two, three, four, five.
00:23:15
Speaker
And they would deliberate on these, like, I don't know monthly, like, hey, here's the priority list for this class, this class, this class. I was on the list for rescue tech. I think I was, you know, three or four, who knows. um But the first two or three guys or however many were ahead of me couldn't go for whatever reason. And then somebody like verbalized that, hey, they're getting out or something like that, you know.
00:23:36
Speaker
And, ah hey, I just, automat you know, I happen to be the top guy. And they're like, hey, do you want to go to rescue tech? I'm like, are you serious, man? Is that even question? Yeah, I was like, you know, a 20-year-old freaking two-striper or whatever. I'm like, oh, yeah, it was like the best time ever. And, of course, I was the guy that came back from Rescue Tech.
00:23:56
Speaker
was like everybody to the stall, man. Let me teach you some shit, you know? Yeah, exactly, dude. Classic. If there's any guys listening from my days back at Tyndall, man, they know exactly what I'm talking about. They still mess with me about that to the same.
00:24:11
Speaker
Dude, I embrace rescue. i loved I loved the technical rescue, the rope rescue aspects of it. We went pretty deep into confined space stuff at Tyndall. There were some really sharp dudes that knew confined space well, and we actually hired...
00:24:24
Speaker
some can find Some guys that downtown um provided confined space rescue standby services for some of the industrial processes. times There's a paper mill in Panama City, Florida. And these dudes who did this every day, day to day, not only confined space, but other rope rescue high angle capabilities, they came and taught us. So I went to Rescue Tech.
00:24:49
Speaker
Got the Air Force version, which is great, was great. And then I got these guys confined space rescue stuff, and they they taught you some stuff. They're like, don't worry about that. Do it this way, right?
Training Philosophies and Skill Acquisition
00:25:00
Speaker
The safety knot, they're like, don't even, it's like if the rope's going to fail, it's going to fail right here, and a safety knot ain't going to do shit. So don't worry about that. I remember that. Anyways, I was ah i was deep into it, and he anyways, fortunate to be at Tyndall, the...
00:25:16
Speaker
be a part of that. But I dove into the ah the rope rescue, technical rescue stuff. i love that stuff. Yeah, man. And then that was kind of like, it was similar to Tyndall too, Shaw being on the East Coast and stuff. We, ah you know, get the hurricanes and stuff like that and floods and all that stuff. So I i definitely remember being there for a couple of tropical storms and kind of like that because the year before I got to Shaw, they had like a thousand year flood where they were like rescuing people out of base housing and like boats and stuff. and um so yeah we would always when when we were going to get one of those get like we'd get prepped up we had a quint too so we would always you know start rigging stuff up if we had to like use the ladder to pick people up or you know it that stuff is just super fun and and um that was actually probably my first like subject with it being like it similar to your your story of like first subject of like really really like
00:26:14
Speaker
nerding out on just because it's so interesting. Um, and it's such a niche thing. And I think it's always funny to like when you go to do your little confined space, um, you know, annual or biannual drills or whatever, uh, at your base, there's always like,
00:26:30
Speaker
All right, who's rescue ticks? And, you know, a couple people raise their hands. And then maybe even out of those couple, there's actually, like, maybe two guys that are actually, like, proficient. They can make a four-to-one. Yeah, yeah they're they're the ones that are the guys that are actually proficient in the subject. And they have to do do all the rigging and stuff, so... I'll tell you, man, there was a call we had a low angle rescue where there was a kid and trapped in a car that went off the side of the road about 200 foot down this hill. And um I was the incident commander for this call. And we were so tech rescue shorthanded that there were guys hooked into the system that weren't rescue technicians.
00:27:08
Speaker
Right. when So when push comes to shove, you know, they knew the Stokes basket. They knew how to treat patients. Right. They knew enough about rope rescue to survive, but we kind of had to make the decision, or I made the decision, and I think I got criticized for Nobody really said anything to my face, but I heard some some rumblings like, oh, you should have never put that guy on the rope or whatever the case.
00:27:30
Speaker
um I know that the rope's going hold him. He's got a harness on. Carabiner works. He knows how to treat a patient. We're sending him down a hill. He's hooked into his system. i got guys here. I could see him the whole time. yeah Actually, they went beyond the line of sight, but...
00:27:44
Speaker
um But, you know, that's just sometimes you got to make a decision. But, yeah, you're left with few rescue technicians. But I don't care what your certification is when push comes to shove. I mean, I think it's important that you go to the formal training um and that you have the certification and the department should invest in that.
00:28:01
Speaker
But when push comes to shove, like, who can do it and who can't do it? Whether or not you have a certification. I think rescue also, I mean, I know wherere our where we're on a deep side tangent, but I think rescue also, they get, like, there's there's people that give it a bad rep because they're like, how many times have you done a technical rescue? Well, I mean, you can make that argument for anything. How often have you done a swift water and ice rescue? How many times have you went interior on a structure fire within traps victims? Like, that's no excuse to not... Be proficient. but Be proficient. You just gotta, you have to train, man. Like, you have to...
00:28:35
Speaker
that's That's what our job is, is to be ready for those moments. Exactly. But the the cool thing about rescue tech is kind of puts you in that outside the box mindset. And so, i mean, I had have I directly had to do like a high angle rescue? No, but.
00:28:54
Speaker
there are bits and pieces from that class and skills that I learned in that class that I have used on real, uh, responses. And it's kind of the creativity portion of it, uh, which is really cool to me. And I think it's really important. Um, like me and wit one time we had, ah we had a car wreck, this lady, like basically like Dukes of hazard her, her car over this ditch and,
00:29:21
Speaker
I think it was like a T intersection and she just didn't stop at the, at the stop sign and she just blew past it, but she went over the ditch into the woods. And so we had to, I don't know if we had to cut her out or not. Um, but we had to package her in the Stokes basket and then we used a ground ladder, 20 foot, a four foot ground ladder to put it across the ditch cause it was long enough. And then basically Bob sledded her in the Stokes basket across on the ladder. And I was like, that's not, you know, your normal run of the mill kind of. they don't teach that at rescue tech.
00:29:56
Speaker
No, but but, you know, firefighters are their problem solvers. Right. And it's it's ah that's what I think the biggest benefit from that class is just know the know the equipment on your truck, know how to use it, know use your truck, practice with it. Yeah.
00:30:09
Speaker
And then you solve problems with what you got. um So moving on to just ah kind of we have we do have a planned topic. We're going to get to it. I promise. ah But, yeah, it's four or years. You're setting the stage for us.
00:30:22
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, spent four or five years on the, on the rescue truck ran, you mean, at Shaw, right. It's, um, the hot truck so you're going to all the medicals all the all the ifes you're doing all the plane egress uh you're going off base to you know do mvas and extrications um they've got countless epu activations at shaw i don't know why it just seemed to happen way more frequently of sixteen s man yeah man gotta love them um favorite plane ever
00:30:55
Speaker
Any smoke or fire on base. So, you know, there was those are few and far between, but we did get a couple fires on base and car fires and one house, one or two house fires while i was there. um But um speaking of AP activations, got two pretty kind of funny stories with those. Yeah.
00:31:15
Speaker
Well, one's not funny, I guess. It's more or less it was like a turned in to be kind of serious. but um But we got an EPU activation one time and it was me and Captain Myers. And we they told us that there was only one person on there, but it was really a double seater. And so when we got up there to egress the pilot out and put him on the bottle, we There's an NBC News reporter in the in the back and he's just got a phone and just sticks it in our face and he's recording the whole thing. So we're just like up on the ladder. We're like just like shell shocked for a second of like, what the heck is this dude doing? And so then Cap kind of had to make the decision of like, well, he's a civilian. You're you're a military. You signed up for this. Um, you know, maybe this wasn't necessarily protocol, especially if you only have one escape bottle. So he put the civilian on the, on the bottle, told pilot, Hey dude, hold your breath. And we you know, had to get both, of both of them out, but that's just kind of in that, in that time compressed decision, or time compressed environment. That's the decision that got made and i went on with the pilot. I think really,
00:32:22
Speaker
Yeah, just protecting the mission resources, man. That's true. that's I mean, the the the news reporter can't fly the plane. Yes, I mean, that's, hey, when you go down range, man, they yeah that's that rescue mindset you need to be in, um which is true.
00:32:39
Speaker
You've got to start training those decisions. And then the second one, man, this young, i don't know if he was a captain or LT, but he, uh, ah he he got all He got jazzed up, man. It scared him, I guess. It was his first activation. um And so he just straight up un-assed the plane.
00:32:58
Speaker
like He just left it on. like he got like We got him out on the bottle, but like he didn't turn it off. And I guess I don't really necessarily know what my crew chief did, or he just didn wasn't thinking about you know, turning the plane off first, but we're all like standing by like chief to like, you know, cool guys, you know, don't look at explosions type. Like we just got this pilot out kind of thing and we're just bullshit. And then like chief two's like, is the plane on?
00:33:26
Speaker
And he, we're like, Oh shit. He's like, we should probably turn that off. So I had actually like go up on there and turn, turn the, um turn the plane off, which was pretty cool. Holy cow.
00:33:37
Speaker
Yeah. So that was, uh, that's my two cool stories with EPU activations. Did it turn off like it was supposed to? Dude, I, cause I was, I think a young I young, was a young staff.
00:33:50
Speaker
And so I was still, when I first put staff on, Uh, you know, we had cat, like, you know, some civilian heavy, um, kind of dynamics too, of, um,
00:34:04
Speaker
I wasn't necessarily crewing right away. I still drove a lot when I was, ah you know, a baby staff. yeah And, um, so I was driving still and, but I, I was still to the point like where I was an NCO and I was, I was teaching classes and meet with me have been on the rescue truck for, you know, four or five years at that point, I had a very good grasp and taught a lot. They typically taught the F-16 classes. And so dude,
00:34:29
Speaker
same exact thing, like got up there was like, Holy shit, we're doing this for real. And like, just said the steps out like verbally. And then I grabbed the throttle, turned it all the way back, turned it off. And I heard the plane go, bla bla bla but bla and I literally audibly was like, Holy shit, this works.
00:34:50
Speaker
yeah Like in real time. Right. Cause like, I was like, I teach you this stuff. But until that point it was theory. Now I know, it I know, I know it works. Yeah. Um, so that was cool.
00:35:02
Speaker
Um, and then, you know, did my little stint in dispatch for eight months. I already brought that up. Um, my one sole in flight, cause this was during COVID was the F-16 crash that happened at Shaw back in 21, 22. That was a nighttime twenty mission. Yep.
00:35:18
Speaker
Yep, 2020.
00:35:21
Speaker
So came in ah very just like that classic like gut feeling of like this is not right. um I want to say i have like a picture of my notes, my little yellow legal pad to write. Um, but came in, I want to say broke, they said broken landing gear, which kind of triggered that like intuition of like, this is not like, this is not normal or routine. but You know, normally it
Leadership and Experience Sharing
00:35:53
Speaker
would be like, you know, landing gear malfunction sure or something along that line. Right. So,
00:35:59
Speaker
Got off the crash phone, spun around in my chair, flight chief security forces. They were all kind of bullshitting because where our dispatch was in BDOC. And I told the flight chief, tech or master, i think, i was like, hey, sir youre this plane's probably about to crash. You're going to want to go out on the airfield. And he's like, shut up, dude. No, it's not. And I was like, no, I'm being dead ass serious. Like, you need to get out there. And he was like, oh, OK.
00:36:26
Speaker
And so sure as shit. You know, the events happen, plane crashes. um And I don't really know. I'd have to ask ICs and so the guys that were out there of like why the EOC never got stood up.
00:36:42
Speaker
um But it didn't. And so I had to basically do everything. Yeah. ah Basically, and so I had two really good... So basically, it was two senior airmen and a staff sergeant that ran that whole that whole incident from the... you know i'm sure the EOC was eventually stood up you know so sometime after your shift was over, potentially. Yeah, probably, when like all the other you know agencies started having to come in. But for the initial 12 hours, it was...
00:37:15
Speaker
Um, you know, me, the desk sergeant, and then the other senior airman that was working the alarms for B doc and they, those dudes crushed it. We worked really well together.
00:37:26
Speaker
probably called every person on that entire base that night. Um, But yeah, I got it done, man. it was a It was interesting for sure. Another perspective too, um like I even have on my notes, you know, I viewed dispatch as a punishment, but I learned so much from being on that other side of of the curtain um and then really seeing what it takes or what goes into, you know, being a part of like, you know, one of those type three incidents and running how much, other other agencies, you know, a play effect in that in that response.
00:38:05
Speaker
so um So that's pretty wrapped up my, you know, time at Shaw. I'm not going to hit too much on Ielson because I'm, you know, 23 present. Best decision I made because I kind of got in that when you get stuck in somewhere for that long of a period, you can it's really easy to get stuck in that mindset of, ah you know, I probably had some conversations with individuals that outranked me that.
00:38:30
Speaker
I would probably have changed now from having a different perspective of, you know, um using my words a little more wisely. ah But that's like we said, we're living and learning, man.
00:38:43
Speaker
It's called growth, right? Yeah. But, you know, Ielson was the best decision I made to got me out of that mindset and really, you know, kind of showed me that, okay, yeah, you don't freaking know everything. I got to learn this place, got to learn how these guys do things. um And just really shifted my mindset to being, you know,
00:39:05
Speaker
Being more open-minded and, you know, trying to just make each place that you go a little bit better. um Also, just a great assignment, too. So far, I've had house fires.
00:39:19
Speaker
Codes, 35 crash, another 35 fire, 16 crash, F-15 aborted takeoff, you know, um break fires with all the all the red flags. So the mission is really cool as well. um it's been It has the potential to deliver some some responses.
00:39:39
Speaker
ah For sure. And it's just like, i feel like Ielson kind of made me really appreciate the Air Force Fire Service because of the ARF responses generated from Red Flag and stuff where Shaw, you know, is a little bit more we slower flight line well it's busy but it's not it's just like we lean so hard into the off-base response of like that's the the mindset but um with all that being said man like the whole purpose of this is like some of these experiences and we're going to get into some more serious calls right here
00:40:19
Speaker
um kind of really like showed me or led me into being a student of the game. Right. I had good, like I mentioned before, I had really good mentors, showed me where good information was. um But I started really like so being a student.
00:40:34
Speaker
Um, so once I got promoted to staff, right. And I started taking over the engine, that was like a very new experience for me because I had been on one, you know, I was one sided more or less on the rescue truck for so long.
00:40:51
Speaker
Um, and so I kept seeing these videos or pictures of like super vent limited fires of like, you know, there's just smoke chugging out of each orifice of this thing. Um, you know, and I just was like, I have zero idea what to do about that.
00:41:12
Speaker
And I'm in charge now. And now I have to be responsible for three other individuals. And so that was very, very scary to me. um just because it wasn't necessarily that I was afraid to fail and like maybe look bad but it was more or less I was just I was afraid to you know get somebody hurt that I was responsible for and so uh that was one of those instances right that I I asked Whit like hey man like I don't even I don't know what to do with this and um he you know sent me down a rabbit hole and that kind of just really opened my eyes to like the level of instruction and what you are coding people
00:41:57
Speaker
to have in a really, really stressful environment, right? And that information should be as tight as possible, um especially if you're the one instructing, right? You should be aiming to give people the best information possible um that they can have Um, in that stressful time compressed environment so that they can make, you know, good decisions in smart decisions.
00:42:27
Speaker
Um, so, and just like, so like I got a wreck, right. um Unfortunately, fatal wreck, double head-on collision, um but it was a really, really soh it was a really really um technical extrication. right i mean it It was the only a wreck that I had in my entire career. it took, I think, 45 minutes for us to cut this kid out. Um, and he was essentially upside down and the dash had molded around his leg.
00:42:59
Speaker
And so he was, uh, basically dangling on the, you know, his head was on the roof or torso was on the roof section because the car was flipped upside down. And, um, and so it was the only wreck that I had my entire career that the, the life flight landed on the ground before we had them cut out of the car. And so,
00:43:22
Speaker
With that being said, right? um And unfortunately that, that young man didn't make it. And so the net, the very next weekend ah we go to a conference, um go to extrication conference and learn a tactic that we could have used on that, on that very rack. And it's just super weird how stuff like that happens. um But it's also, you know, that hindsight 2020 is like, dang, man, I wish I would had that information for that, for that response. Yeah.
00:43:53
Speaker
Which is, you know, there's nothing i could have done, you know, in that moment to change that. But when you look at the lens of that, of these skills are important and people's lives are at stake sometimes. Right.
00:44:08
Speaker
And so. It just kind of res reiterates of like why getting outside of the bubble of your four walls of your fire department is so important because there's so much information out there for free.
00:44:25
Speaker
And they that, you know, that are FDIC instructors, top notch subject matter experts that guys are putting out there. um You just got to want it. You know, are we good? Because if it's kind of being a little laggy. No, yeah, you're good. You're good. yeah Okay. The video is lagging, but I can hear you fine.
00:44:42
Speaker
Okay, cool. um So then moving in, so this was kind of like really, truly the call that really pivoted and changed my life forever. um had a fatal car fire with a victim that could have potentially been saved.
00:44:56
Speaker
um And it was... You know, looking back at it and it's another hindsight 2020. Right. So ah have a fatal car fire that, you know, like I said, victim could have potentially got we could have probably pulled him out maybe to, you know, did CPR and got him back because when we cut this kid out, man, he was not.
00:45:19
Speaker
He was burned, but he was not like a crispy critter to say, like, I know that's this maybe not the best term to say, but like, you know, he wasn't, ah it wasn't a charred body. He had third degree burns, you know, but he, he 1000% died from smoke inhalation. Um, but so then I take a search class from Cobb County. It's called the search reformation and they, You know, they kind of like we were very big on like, you know, the whole risk thing. And um and I get it. and it's there for a purpose. But it's very hard for you to say what is survivable or not.
00:45:59
Speaker
Like, that's really not up to you. What you what your job is to do is to do the biggest or to do what you could do with your equipment, with your personnel. That's going to have the biggest impact on the fire ground in that very moment. Right. And so with that being said, right, i take this class and like, dude, they're they're pulling kids and stuff out of like houses that are just like, you know.
00:46:23
Speaker
floor floor to ceiling fire and stuff, you know, and granted that, yeah, they have to put it out with the line first, but they're still going in and grabbing these kids. And, um, and so i just think back, I kept thinking back to that night of like,
00:46:37
Speaker
I had no, I had no slide for that, that moment. The, you know, I remember my buddy, he was on the line. i was, I was backing him up and it didn't even register in my brain to even check if somebody was in the car until, you know, he hit him in the back of the head with a stream. And I was just like, oh shit, somebody's, someone is in there.
00:47:00
Speaker
And then it was just, I didn't freeze as in like I kept, we kept going on, but I definitely didn't make a decision, you know, like my decision making ability at that point time was out the window. It was just kind of like fumbling through the rest of the call. And so, you know, and then the IC made the decision to leave, leave the body in there. Cause it's now we're doing the whole evidence thing and all that. And that's, you know, maybe checklist driven or whatnot, but, um,
00:47:32
Speaker
It does. It sucks being on the backside of a call like that of where you have to question if you did the right things or not. And it was, you know, a fire of consequence. And so that's really, you know, what drove me.
00:47:49
Speaker
To like do stuff like this and to be, you know, as good as I can at this job. And really, it started getting me into teaching as well um and instructing and trying to give the guys knowledge.
00:48:05
Speaker
um, under me, whether they want to listen or not, cause not everybody wants to listen and that's okay. Cause that's just the name of the game. But so I started to kind of stop focusing on quantity and started kind of focusing on quality.
00:48:20
Speaker
And cause there are guys that are hungry and they want that information and they want to be as good as they possibly can be at this job. And, um, so typically in those people will gravitate to towards you. Right. And so,
00:48:34
Speaker
you know, through, through the times of like, kind of like going through this and, you know, trying to kind of like you said, like with the rescue stuff, it'll be like, I take a class and I come back and I'd be like, this is the greatest, greatest thing since a sliced bread, like, and just like trying to shove it down people's throats that also made people resistive. Right. So like there is a pendulum of, of, you know, a balance.
00:49:01
Speaker
And so that's kind of what I was getting at with the quality versus quantity of like, you can't just shove a water hose down people's throats, but there will be people that will want to learn from you, especially if you're coming from like a good spot like that.
00:49:16
Speaker
Sure, there's a leadership lesson there too is you know our our tendency, especially when you're a young leader, a new leader, and even people kind of carry this habit into throughout their careers, is to tell people exactly what to do.
00:49:33
Speaker
Because I'm the boss, because of my experience, come over here and do this because I said so, you know, in other words, but not necessarily like that. And the most effective way is being competent in a way that people want to approach you and then people learning things because they want to learn, right? So sharing your experiences sharing having humility and saying, I didn't know what to do in this moment is going to encourage people to want to know that so that they don't put themselves in that same circumstance, right? So that they don't end up not knowing what to do in a particular moment, right? So really the leadership lesson is being indirect in the way that you lead people and letting them come to the conclusion on their own instead of saying, going to them and say, hey this is important. You're going to need to know this.
00:50:26
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes that's effective and important, but the most effective way is letting them come to that conclusion. Yeah, dude, I think Aaron Fields has a quote. I think he hits the nail on the head with it. Leadership's not a push, it's a pull.
00:50:39
Speaker
And so when you, like, you exactly like you said, man, you're When you don't let or when you're not shoving things that are like you're not telling people directly, but you're letting people come to you because they they want to. That's when, and you know, the rubber really starts to meet the road. Right. They're going more engaged.
00:50:59
Speaker
Acceptive. One thousand percent. So. With that, right, so then that kind of really made me, those experiences and stuff really started making me, you know, A, have a lens for what, you know, the value of human life, um what ah high, what risking a lot really means, right? And so then, you know, like i like I said, is like I started really studying, right? So then I kind of learned... you know, I took this class, uh, the other, I guess it's probably about two years ago. was called training for performance.
00:51:36
Speaker
A very, very good class. Um, Jess Young, chief Jess Young, I think is her name. Um, she's down in the lower part of Alaska, but she came up to Fairbanks. Um, but she kind of really started, uh, kind of like Things I'd heard from other people, she compiled into one place and it all kind of has the same thing to do with like, you know, so the stress that we experience on the fire ground. um So the Yerkes-Dotson law, the bell curve, it's for human performance.
00:52:09
Speaker
And it's basically your state of arousal or state of stress is going to greatly dictate your your performance. And so we can look at that from the fire ground stress aspect, but you can also look at it from the training aspect as well, which is what she kind of did a really great job of the analogy um and learning that there's different levels of training. Right. So.
00:52:35
Speaker
um For the stress portion, right, or like the fire ground, understanding that we have two types of stress that we encounter on the fire ground. We have physiological and psychological stress. um And those things are going to trigger what's called acute stress reactions. And those are drastically based upon your heart rate.
00:52:55
Speaker
And so i in which I started wearing a whoop. don't know if you know what a whoop is, but yeah, I know it is. um Dude, I think that's probably that has been some of the most interesting stuff. um Starting to collect some data from these calls and like really go through my heart rate and, um you know, just be able to quantify some of those numbers and um real life but ah responses. Yeah, I love that initiative. And who we were doing that at Ielson and there's other organizations at Ielson were doing it, I'm sure, where I know that there's organizations at other places that are doing something similar where you track the...
00:53:37
Speaker
um the bio the biometrics of firefighters and you know, how things are different while they're on duty compared to when they're off duty. And it's just really eyeopening to look at what happens to a firefighter under stress, you know, it's inherent to the job.
00:53:57
Speaker
Um, but, uh, an accumulation of that over a career or even a few years is going to have side effects, impacts. And so, yeah, quantifying that and having data to point to why firefighters experience ah their occupational stresses or what those occupational stresses are going to do to you physiologically over time. It's just powerful stuff, man. I'm really interested in that.
00:54:22
Speaker
Yeah, man, it's ah it's super interesting, too, especially like you can't There's no way to get around it. Right. So essentially what happens right when you have a acute stress stress response. Right. your Your sympathetic nervous system is having a response because your body is elevating your heart rate.
00:54:43
Speaker
to be able to deal with sort of the yeah yeah the said threat, right? And so typically... Well, I think there is a way to not necessarily work around it, but and I think you know the answer to this, but um there is a way to curb the physiological and psychological effects of a high-stress call, and it's to practice and put yourself in similar circumstances in training,
00:55:11
Speaker
and yeah know Yeah. Mimic those circumstances so that when you are faced with the actual thing, it's less impactful, I guess is the best way to say Yeah, your're which you're 1000% right too.
00:55:25
Speaker
So typically, right, when you get a call of of some kind of significance, no matter what, your body is going to raise your heart rate up to around 115 to 145 beats per minute, right? And that's just to get you in that in that optimal primal zone to deal with ah with whatever you need to deal with.
00:55:48
Speaker
though Then that's going to be like kind of like the peak of the curve, right? um Where you're at optimal performance. And so, when you're like you're saying, right, if you're faced with something that you're not familiar with, or something's not going right, or, you know, there's the...
00:56:07
Speaker
The manual or Marine Corps manual warfighting talks about like things that they encounter on the battlefield. And if you just change battlefield to fire ground, it's the like verbatim what we deal with. Right. um So, you know, friction, fluidity, uncertainty, you know, all all these things um happens on every every response. Right. um But like you're saying, like when you're not conditioned for that, you're going to start your heart rate is going to start to go down the backside of that curve where your performance is going to fall down or ah degrade due to your stress response is now your heart rate is elevated and now you're starting to have.
00:56:50
Speaker
biological or physiological responses that your body's programmed to have. And so another challenge that we face to not only are we dealing with the psychological of stress of calls,
00:57:04
Speaker
pressure, um you know, decision making, uncertainty. um We also have 100 pounds of gear on our body. So we are kind of combating both physiological stress and psychological stress at the same time. So that's why training, um pushing yourself, being physically fit,
00:57:25
Speaker
Um, doing training in your gear specifically, um to get conditioned to the heat and the weight, um, is, is it's apparent you have to do it.
00:57:38
Speaker
Yeah. Or you're a liability, right? Really? I mean, honestly, because like there is a potential liability, you're there. I hear it a lot. You're because we are so very good at problem solving and we are very good at overcoming friction. Typically,
00:57:54
Speaker
um But that's not the way to view it. We should be strive to be as prepared as possible because that's just not the way your brain works under stress, actual stress. um So the the mindset of like, we'll figure it out when we get there.
00:58:14
Speaker
it's i I just can't get behind it, man. I really can't. um Like, yes, we're going to do – we are going to figure it out when we get there, but that's not what I'm going to base my whole pre-response off of. I'm going to train for as many as many situations as I can to be proficient as in in as many situations as I can. So then I'm not having to use cognitive bandwidth to figure out that. Sure. You want to put it into the Rolodex so that you have something there when the circumstance comes.
00:58:47
Speaker
Right. And so that kind of leads us into a good segue. And this will kind of polish this up, too, of like what were the entire episode. But so that kind of led me to, you know, Aaron Fields does the the nozzle forward, which I think you've taken. um So he uses what's called the Fitzgerald. Posner model for skill a acquisition. um So Paul Fitz and Michael Posner are professors of psychology from the University of Oregon, and they wrote ah the textbook called Human Performance. And it's designed to introduce frameworks and understands the understand the complexities of human performance because it's just
00:59:29
Speaker
Exactly like we just said, um there's so many variables that actually really go into being able to perform out on the, whether it's sports, whether it's firefighting, um wrestling, it doesn't matter, right? It's just human performance as a whole.
00:59:46
Speaker
And so... um They broke it down, which is going to sound a lot like crawl, walk, run, but it's more a little bit more in depth. Right. And I think Chief Eric Wheaton has a really good analogy to make it a little more firefighter friendly. um But the three phases are cognitive, associative and autonomous.
01:00:06
Speaker
And so really what. I won't go too much into it because it gets a little nerdy, but the way that chief Eric Wheaton breaks it down is, uh, mechanics, consistency and complexity or intensity.
01:00:20
Speaker
And so what I see a lot of times we do is we'll do very, very basic mechanics and then we'll jump straight to intensity.
01:00:31
Speaker
And we do that with, we do that with new guys and we do that with drills all the time. And so understanding that if you are placing intensity before mechanics and intensity or consistency, the opportunity or the ability to be successful is going to be drastically less. And so, like, I'll give you an example. You're also going to discourage people very fast. what One thousand percent. Right. how do you not know how to do this or whatever the case?
01:01:00
Speaker
exactly right and so like that happens all the time right so like yeah um like f-16 egress right like you know i've been a part of some exercises where like they guys have bits and chunks of the information but it's not smooth right and then people will be like well why didn't you know that and it's like well they haven't practice those skills to a consistent level to where they can do it at a full speed drill.
01:01:31
Speaker
Sure. They're not without, yeah without messing up. And so anyways, like new guys, right. And it's kind of like a rite of passage or whatever. And I get it, but like, we'll do this whole giant hose maze in the, in the stalls and And like, you know, put all this, put all this shit in the way yeah and make environment yeah make them crawl through tires and shit. And then we won't even teach them that how to do smooth bump bump to the pump. Like we won't even give them the crowns to, we just want to see them fail because we think it's funny. Um, or we just want to do that because that's what happened to us when we were, yeah when we were new. And so,
01:02:14
Speaker
There is a time and place for the stress inoculation, right? So that shouldn't go away, but you should also give the people mechanics. The mechanics to be able to do that. And give them space and opportunity to practice and can be consistent.
01:02:31
Speaker
Right. And so then also do the consistency, which is the biggest portion that is typically missed, is the middle portion. And so there's a book called The Talent Code.
01:02:44
Speaker
um which is a very, very good book about how to basically be a good instructor or how to develop talent. And the three or you could even put I like to I've kind of changed it to develop competency. And the three ways to develop talent is is what's called deep practice.
01:03:05
Speaker
Ignition and master coaching. And so deep practice is gonna be our consistency portion. But essentially, like people say muscle memory, What really what you're doing is you're insulating the so say you have dots in your brain between known things, right? Really what you're doing is insulating your um neuropathways with what's called myelin. And so it's no different from any kind of other wire. You're insulating that so that that electrical current can fire faster. And so the more myelin you have ah wrapped around that circuit, the faster it's going to go. So that's really what's happening when you're doing muscle memory is you've just practiced that thing enough times that you don't have to think about it. That electrical impulse just fires immediately.
01:03:55
Speaker
And so um with that being said is like, that's why the consistency portion is the biggest piece of the pie. I think that's true with so many other things too. I mean, I'm i'm a runner, right? And if i ever want to be a good runner or be the best version of myself runner, like to get to that point, I have to consistently...
01:04:21
Speaker
run And we're talking about months and years, not so much of the physiological, or I'm sorry, the psychological aspect, which that's part of it. It's that physiological, those pathways, those neural pathways, I guess, to use the same example, and condition my muscles for that particular load, condition my heart that particular load.
01:04:46
Speaker
So that the my stroke volume, the amount of blood my my left ventricle pushes to the rest of my body is more and more and more efficient to get my heart to that point, to get my lungs to that tidal volume capacity, to get my red blood cells to the optimal level of oxygen transport capacity.
01:05:07
Speaker
you know, the hemoglobin to the optimal level of oxygen transport capacity, you have to do it over and over and over and over again, right? And that's just running. That's one example.
01:05:18
Speaker
um But the same thing applies for anything that you want to be and a quote-unquote expert or good at. You have to practice those pathways over and over and over. Yeah, so that um I think that you hit it on the head when you said the the the piece that we miss most often is consistency. And I think that there's a lot of variables to play.
01:05:40
Speaker
There's a lot of things that lot of things that we're we're going at a faster than probably appropriate pace in our in our training pipelines.
01:05:52
Speaker
um We're expected to fill positions sooner than we should, right? It's the nature of the business. So I think that that's partly to blame. But ah I don't think that that's an excuse to...
01:06:06
Speaker
That's not an excuse. As a leader, you have to recognize that we're on an accelerated pathway and work to make sure that you you make space and time for people to practice consistency.
01:06:20
Speaker
in the And your example with running is very, very good because exactly what you are kind of alluding to, and unfortunately, the consistency portion is sometimes boring.
01:06:33
Speaker
Oh, yeah, and that's that great point. it it To do it redundantly. um and so that And even while doing it, you may not notice that you're making a difference. That's another aspect of it.
01:06:46
Speaker
Right. It's like, well, am I really making a difference today, man? Because I don't feel any different than I did yesterday about Right. It's like, keep getting up and keep doing the same thing. It will come in time.
01:06:57
Speaker
You'll get better and better and better incrementally, slowly over time. One day, four months down the road, you'll wake up and be like, you know, you like, you'll notice a difference. You know mean? So.
01:07:09
Speaker
Right. And, and, and to, unfortunately, like you have to do the consistency portion or I like the lump mechanics and consistency together because obviously they're, they're paired together. um But when you're building it to a consistent level too, it's like you now, whatever skill it is, you understand all the points of like friction friction of where you're going to get some some feedback and you understand how to kind of navigate those situations as to, you know, that's where you're making it a smooth,
01:07:45
Speaker
skill um instead of being because like don't get me wrong there are times that we do drills and stuff and people are successful but they're more fumbling through it rather than it being like wow that was a really clean rep sure you get lucky Right, a lot of times. And some people, let's face it, are are naturally better in certain areas, whether it be physically physically better, ah naturally physically better. Like they just have a, ah they were gifted with a ah great genetic makeup for whatever. Maybe they don't have to. Maybe they're just strong, right? You know, or fast or very smart. They have photographic memories. We see people like that all the time, but those are exceptions. Right.
01:08:26
Speaker
Those people are rare. And even even those people can only rely on that ability for so long. Right. There's things that they're not going to be good at that they're going to have to practice.
01:08:38
Speaker
One thousand percent. And so just the last kind of ah point to wrap this up and why why doing skill acquisition in this industry. in this format or this model has been really, really, um, beneficial, um, is because also with going through the mechanics or mechanics, consistency and intensity, that also is like the, they have a, picture I have a picture of it for my class, but, um,
01:09:07
Speaker
It kind of goes with there's ah a performance line and then there's a working memory line. So like as you're new to a skill, you're obviously your cognitive demand to be able to perform perform that is going to be higher. And as through time, right, as your performance gets better and and you get more consistent and more smooth, you start to operate in that autonomous phase of where you don't even have to think about it.
01:09:32
Speaker
And so why that's important for especially all of our basic skills um is like that's what the foundation of the job is. That's what you're going to use on the call. Right. And so this is kind of what I see the most in training or most in on on actual fires when people get stressed out. um If you haven't built the and I know we've said this a thousand times, right? But like if you're having to think about putting your mask on, you're thinking about putting your mask on. You're not thinking about what the actual incident is or, you know, that what your 360 is or then you start to miss shit. Your gloves, not you, you left your glove at the truck or whatever it may be. Right. And so once we train these skills to that autonomous, um you know, phase, know,
01:10:19
Speaker
we're taking that off of our bandwidth and we can start to use our brain or or our mental capacity for other things, right? That we might need to, uh, to have, right. Or we might miss something, right? Um, maybe the fire vented itself on the Charlie side, or, you know, maybe it started on the, on the outside and now it worked its way inside. So maybe I'm going to actually bring the line to the backside of the house instead of going in the front door.
01:10:46
Speaker
Things like that um is what I typically see, um especially with rookies, too, of like the gear thing. um It seems redundant, but if they don't train that stuff, they're they're eating up mental mental bandwidth just putting their stuff on quick.
01:11:04
Speaker
Yeah, man, that encapsulates it great. I think that's the best way to to wrap up that piece of what you talked about is to get to a place with everything within your scope of responsibility to the greatest extent possible. Get to a place where you don't have to think about how to do it.
01:11:27
Speaker
So you can save that bandwidth for those scenarios where those scenarios that somebody launched a car over a hill and you have to use a Stokes basket and a ladder ah to to get them out or there's a complicated vehicle extrication or whatever the case is so that you have your mental bandwidth for those moments. Yeah.
01:11:50
Speaker
One thousand percent, man. That's ah what we're striving to do, at least more or less. But yeah, man, that pretty much wraps everything up as far as what we hope that tied I know it was a long winded rabbit hole to get there, but that's kind of what, you know, we set the foundation. It takes you an hour and 10 minutes to get to a point.
01:12:13
Speaker
Yeah. hit One singular of just train the basics of so you can't do them wrong. It's all good stuff. It's all good stuff. 1000%. And I think a lot of people can relate, man. But yeah, um,
01:12:26
Speaker
we're happy to have you on as a host, man. and And a large reason why you were selected among many quality people was that you are invested in the fire service. And it's pretty clear when you speak that you, um, you invest in yourself, you invest in the guys, you invest in the department and it's just a never ending, learning process. And,
01:12:49
Speaker
just kind of wanted to bring bring that to this podcast and because that's what podcasts are for, I think, you know, is to teach other people to live vicariously through others and to really, as a host, kind of try to bring the best out of the guest. And I think that if you're well read into the fire service, if you know what the hell you're talking about,
01:13:07
Speaker
um, to the greatest extent possible, then you're going to ask inquisitive, thoughtful questions. And so that was really the, uh, the intent there. So it's great to have you on, man. Thank you for sharing your experiences at Shaw and, you know, being, having some humility and saying, Hey, I, man, it could went different had I known what to do. And I think all of us have examples, dude, for sure. Um, and that's what it's all about, you know? And yeah, just, uh,
01:13:34
Speaker
sharing those experiences so that maybe somebody else doesn't have to go through the same thing. um I don't know if you know who Magnus Carlson is. Do you know who Magnus Carlson is? I think that's how sounds familiar. He's the chess player.
01:13:45
Speaker
he's ah He's like a young prodigy chess player, right? And there's an example that I hear used by some in leadership circles as he was this young prodigy. Everybody's like, how is this dude so good? He's a young teenager. is ah He's a teenager. And he's crushing these old dude ah old dudes at chess. Yeah.
01:14:04
Speaker
And the reason he was so good was because he learned, I guess in chess, they have like log books that explain moves made during matches, right? And how people were able to defeat their opponents and yada, yada, yada. So there's this like body of work.
01:14:20
Speaker
that this kid was able to study. So he's obviously gifted at chess, and he studied this body of work of other people who are really good at chess. And so he showed up to the chess scene already good, but with also knowing what everybody else knew, right? And so he was just crushing souls out there out there on the on the chess field or whatever. and or On the chess floor, whatever you want to call the chess table. um And he's still out there, man. You'll see like...
01:14:47
Speaker
you're on social media, you'll see little reels of him. but I do. Maybe he's in my algorithm for a reason. But but anyways, I thought that was kind of a good good analogy. You know, it's like you can learn so much vicariously through others, through others' experiences, through reading, through podcasts, through videos, um in addition to your own experience.
01:15:05
Speaker
one thousand Yeah, I mean, dude, I keep saying 1,000%.
01:15:10
Speaker
No, that and that's one of the points that a j but I learned from Jay Bonifield, too, but is like we have it's no different from watching Gamefield. You can watch a response. You can watch a helmet cam.
01:15:25
Speaker
But really, you need that coach or that mentor to kind of proctor guys to say, hey, this is what the stuff you need to be looking for. This is the these are the things you're trying to observe so you can make decisions based upon these these conditions. Right. Or, you know, like this is a bidirectional flow path right here. This is what that looks like. um You know, so instead of just being watching a video of a fire, be like, oh, it's it's a fire. It's cool or whatever. Actually take the time to be like.
01:15:55
Speaker
you know, read, do smoke reading, um, see some of those real examples too. You got to, it's the only way, cause you're not going to get enough fires just on base. And, um, really it's, it's no different either for a lot of civilian departments. Like not everyone, it's really high.
01:16:12
Speaker
that's Yeah. It's like, Not everyone's FDNY getting, ah you know, sets and reps all the time. So you got. Well, even their sets and reps are different from what our sets and reps would be, right? Like they're not dealing with single family dwellings for the most part, I'm sure in some cases, but especially in Manhattan or some other, the the metropolitan like populated areas, either they're talking about high rises and that's a whole different ball game.
01:16:35
Speaker
without They don't, they don't have, they don't have a 20, 20, 200 foot pre-connects. Maybe they do, but the the hose. a bit 200, I mean, they, they, they do stuff completely differently. And that is an important thing to do, especially if you take a class, I will say, um, this as well. I got one other point after this and then we can all shut up. Um,
01:17:00
Speaker
But if you take a class, right, take it, take it, take in what you can take in. But also realize that, like, you might not be able to operate that way. yeah There's going to be bits and pieces of it that may be useful and that you can apply to your department. um And that's your job to be that subject matter expert of your department and take and take it and make it be useful for y'all and mold it into something that's you know digestible for your personnel.
01:17:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think that goes both ways too. And Aaron Fields hit on this and in the class that I attended. it's it's different for It's different for every every fire district, every municipality, every local locality around the American Fire Service. like It's And so I think as an instructor, you have to understand that, like, and have the humility to say, this is my experience and these are the the environments that I lived in, right? I was in FDNY or I was in Phoenix or I was in Dallas or I was in rural Kansas where we didn't have hydrant systems or whatever the case. And you as the learner, as the student need to recognize this. So you don't have to take everything as gospel.
01:18:05
Speaker
And yeah, take those little bits and pieces of what you think could be valuable. Like one thing Aaron Fields, like, applies in his training or did, I don't know if he's still teaching, but, um, as like, they have an essentially unlimited water source in, in Seattle or in Washington, right? Like, and his, his whole thing was just dumping water, right? Like on his, his training or his approach is just a lot of water is, is my point. Right. And that may not work,
01:18:38
Speaker
uh, in a drought infested Arizona, like rural area, you know what I mean or so anyways, yeah. Taking what you know through your experiences and where you are and applying the good and, um, you know, I mean, you know, perfect real world example of that. Just the other day, a couple weeks ago, we got a mutual aid down to Solcha, which is South of the base. Um, and most of Fairbanks is north of the base and it's a very, very small, uh, volunteer department. And we were, we were first due and, but having that experience from fighting county county firefighting and at South Carolina, I understood, um you know, I was, i was on the ISO truck. Um, one of the other chiefs was the actual
01:19:27
Speaker
ended up being, we had a couple chiefs. So ended up getting the play. That's what happens, man. When fires ring out Larson. Right. So there, there was no real need for me to be the direct safety, safety guy. But so I just kind of just bumped down and started helping the guys. But my understanding from County firefighting of like, we're not going to have any water for minutes. Right. And so the, when I pulled up the the guys were pulling the deuce and a half because it was a you know it was a well-involved you know structure and i was like put that deuce and a half up bro we're you're gonna cash our tank in three seconds like ah pull pull the pre-connect and let's do what we can do with that um
01:20:11
Speaker
So that was like a little bit of a pivot, but like having that, you know, that experience to be able to make those decisions um is important for sure. And understanding your, your, your dynamic.
01:20:23
Speaker
That example is a great one for Air Force firefighters, too, because ah we are used to hydrant system, right? And are our reflexes. Well, that i I like the fact that they they they pulled the two and a half. I do, too. I don't think that's ah that's a normal reflex. The normal reflex is inch and three quarter no matter what, right? like I see fire,
Handling Trauma and Emotional Impact
01:20:43
Speaker
it's three quarter. Yeah. So I like that they pulled the two and a half. But like you said, that in a water-limited environment, maybe not.
01:20:51
Speaker
Yeah. And the reason he did that is because they had a similar fire a couple of years ago. And that was his that was his Rolodex slide. There you go. have Trash fires. And so I get it. And like, but last last little tidbit before we hop off, um especially um because it's a it's a topic that is near and dear to my heart, especially with I didn't get to too far in the weeds with some of those calls and like like I said the the fatal car fire that definitely uh tugged on the strings for a while and I had to kind of really sit there and chew on that for ah some years honestly man of like that that bothered me for so long of like feeling like i really let that you know
01:21:38
Speaker
that kid and his family down. Um, and I think it's just only natural to feel that way because you want to do the best, uh, that you can, right. But the the Mission Critical Teams Institute, they have a really, really good a paper called Residue.
01:21:57
Speaker
And it kind of deals with some of the the traumatic stuff. and um And really, he actually got it from Tom Hardy um and actors that like really like delve into their character. he kind of used the example of, like, if I'm Bane, I can't be, you know...
01:22:17
Speaker
another character for if I'm doing a new movie, I still can't be Bane from Batman. So I have to like process that residue and be able to kind of like come out on the other side clean. um And so the example of like with the traumatic stress stuff is like you kind of get a say in how you process some of that stuff. And so the way that I kind of was able to do that is to be able to share my experience with other people ah and in saying treated as a learning experience is terrible, but that's truly what it is. It's like, if I don't,
01:22:56
Speaker
If I just sit there and dwell on like, well, I had this terrible experience and don't really do anything with it, then it's not, you know, it's just it's just negative. But if I'm able to teach other people and maybe and allow them to not have that experience, then then it becomes that experience becomes somewhat useful.
01:23:16
Speaker
And so, um, just check that paper out though. It's a, it's really good. Helped me a little bit with some of that PTSD stuff. So it's always a good message. That's a great day.
01:23:27
Speaker
Great way to deal with, uh, those experiences is it's a great way to cope is to let me share with what I did, right? Like you're, you're reliving it and I don't know. Yeah. It's a, it's positive that maybe somebody else doesn't have to go through the same thing, but I love it. All right. Awesome.
Closing Remarks and Thank You
01:23:44
Speaker
Well, we've covered a lot and, uh,
01:23:46
Speaker
Again, appreciate you bringing all this stuff forward. It's good episode. Yes, sir. All right. Till next time. Till next time. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Fire Dog Podcast. If you found value in today's conversation, please take a moment to rate and review the show on your podcast platform of choice. It's one of the best ways to help us reach more firefighters and leaders across the fire service.
01:24:07
Speaker
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01:24:23
Speaker
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01:24:37
Speaker
Sharing this episode with your friend, co-worker, or someone in your firehouse helps these conversations reach the people who would benefit most. This is Matt Wilson with Austin Perry. Until next time, stay safe.