70. Firsthand Account of a LODD & Service After Tragedy - Lionel Crowther

Transcript

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Speaker: Welcome, my name is Matt Wilson, and thank you for listening to Episode 70 of the Fire Dog Podcast. In today's episode, we sit down with Lionel Crowther. a captain with the Winnipeg Fire Department in Manitoba, Canada. whose life was forever changed by a tragic fire on February 4th. 2007.

Speaker: Lionel takes us back to that day sharing the events of a devastating flashover that left him with burns to 70 % of its body. and tragically claimed the lives of two of his fellow firefighters captain lessard And Captain Nichols.

Speaker: He recounts his experience with... incredible honesty, giving us a firsthand look. at the realities of surviving a line of duty injury in the long road that follows but this conversation is about much more than tragedy it's about resilience family finding purpose and turning unimaginable hardship into an opportunity to help others lionel shares how his experience led him into peer support for burn injured firefighters. and their families. His ongoing work.

Speaker: supporting those dealing with traumatic. Stress? and his involvement with programs like IFF. Fireground Survival Program. Nearly two decades after that incident, Lionel is still serving as captain, still riding the fire truck, still working to stay physically fit, still learning how to make a difference in the lives of others. His commitment to the fire service and the people in it is a powerful reminder that while we may not always control what happens to us, we can find purpose in what we do next. Lionel is truly one of a kind.

Speaker: And this is a powerful conversation about survival leadership and the responsibility we have to take care of our own. We hope you enjoy this episode. It's my pleasure. to welcome to the podcast. Captain Lionel Crowther.

Speaker: All right, Lionel. Great to have you, sir. Thank you for joining us. Yeah. Thank you, Matt. Thanks for your time. Yeah, my pleasure. Absolutely. So a friend of mine, I...

Speaker: I would say a friend and acquaintance. We have several friends. We run into a lot of people in our business, especially in the Air Force, where we're moving around all the time. We're going to all these courses. His name is Jared. willman He had mentioned your name to me. He'd he'd watched.

Speaker: the keynotes one of the keynote speeches you gave there's there's one on youtube that i watched as well and he just recommended that we have you on the podcast as a guest he said the message It was powerful. the The event that you went through was certainly.

Speaker: significant and the aftermath of that was powerful you have a ah great message to share and so i reached out to you after speaking with him and i'm happy that we were able to get you on today Yeah, no, I appreciate it. and It's amazing how the message... ah has transformed over the last 19 years.

Speaker: Yeah, I thought the same, you know, so the event the line of duty death that we'll talk about here shortly. happened in February of 2007, and so that's been quite a long time. but It's incredible How?

Speaker: Something like that has... It's still being talked about. It's still... you know relevant to talk about particularly I guess. What we can do in the fire service, how we can.

Speaker: Help our peers that go through circumstances like this and Just, uh... Anyways, I did think that. and after you know hearing your keynote speech reading a little bit about the event. Like, wow, it's it's just... a It's incredible that it's been almost 20 years since that event.

Speaker: Yeah, it's amazing how... ah It seems like yesterday. But then all of a sudden now I'm a... Company officer and I have different color hair. So it's a little little different. Yeah. Yeah, I bet it does feel like yesterday. so Before we get into...

Speaker: to the event itself. Tell us. who you are. Do you still work in a fire department? Which fire department? Maybe just a little overview of your career, whatever you feel like sharing. Yeah, you bet.

Speaker: Yeah, I'm very fortunate. My lovely wife, Joanna, she's... Stuck with me for over a... 28 years married. And we have three kids. So our son, the oldest son, he's 24.

Speaker: Joining the fire service right now. Our middle son, he Nathan, he's 22, joining. He wants to be a ah pilot. So he's finishing off that. He'll be doing that next year. And our young daughter, Maddie, she's 15, turning 15 tomorrow.

Speaker: ah volleyball, volleyball, all that. ah that a dad gets to do. Very fortunate with that. And after this incident, I was... Fortunately, I was able to continue on in my fire service, so I've been in the fire service for over 28 years.

Speaker: and ah currently now with Winnipeg Fire. which the incident happened. And so I'm a company officer. I'm a captain for a station captain. I have an m engine company and a heavy rescue.

Speaker: So... Awesome. a place to be. Great station, and it just had a good working fire. What, six hours ago? Oh, no kidding. So I'm ah off off shift now. so Yeah, but great spot. I'm very fortunate that um the people that supported us, my family and I, to get back.

Speaker: on the job after this incident And ah to kindle on and and really get breakthrough. And not just... ah have that incident determine the rest of my career.

Speaker: Yeah, incredible. See you still. Still kicking it as a firefighter and a line of, I'm still interior fighter too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Still um ah as a. Engine Captain, I'm still interior. I ran the command last night.

Speaker: So I really enjoy it. And still... um I'm very fortunate that I feel I enjoy the job. after something like this. and how I can recapture. A sense of that.

Speaker: ah tradition and brotherhood that I love and it it really kept me motivated to remain on the job because it's so much easier to Give up. Yeah. Excellent to see you still at it. How many years total did you say?

Speaker: 28. 28. that's a long time Yeah, so I'm pretty fortunate. i think i I thought I'd look younger, but then some days you don't. You look great. But no, I...

Speaker: yeah i'm very your fortunate i love uh love my crew and they motivate me to want to get a little bit better. Yeah. I don't know. Kind of a personal note, how do you feel, and this is a little bit off topic. As a 28... year firefighter, line firefighter.

Speaker: How do you feel? um that you're able To keep up physically, if that makes sense. Have you... You know, you have these young. Thundercats coming through.

Speaker: These guys in great shape, guys and gals in great shape. Have you... How have you been able to continue on physically with the job. but You know, it's the push. yeah The motivation of having, say, yeah I'm competing with 20 -year -olds.

Speaker: And um how to keep up with them, not... Not just keep up, but I have to lead. And as a station captain and engine captain, I have to be in that front. front seat and I have to be in the front of that line.

Speaker: And that's my motivation right there is not to be the weakest link. um We are a seniority -based department. So, Just stay alive and I promote. And I... I...

Speaker: Push the opposite way. like I really want to be in the front. with my crew. um leading them, not being weak link or run over first. Some of the things I really...

Speaker: practice and put into play is my physicality and the mentality that it takes to stay in the front. And that's why... I'm not going to just be an old broken firefighter when I retired. I am going to be...

Speaker: ah pushing even harder after retirement and still living the life that I want to live. That's great to hear. Yeah, I'm truly blessed, man. It's been... A good ride, of course, I do have.

Speaker: 53 year old knees. And shoulders, back. But you know what? I i chose this and I do love it because I. I do want to finish off strong.

Speaker: And I really want to do it for... the people that support and also honored. uh, the people that we lost. So that's one of the reasons why I push as hard as I do. Yeah. That's awesome.

Speaker: Um, Yeah, again, physically, I mean, we we all age, right? and It gets harder as you get older. And I guess. More than anything, I'm just impressed with the fact that...

Speaker: You're still getting after it. as ah as a company officer on an engine company and just getting out of a fire six hours ago. In in your early 50s, it's just impressive. and ah That's why I want to ask the question.

Speaker: Um, I'm getting up there, you know, so I'm i'm approaching 40. I think about that as. Some. you know. engaging in physical fitness like how How much longer until those knees aren't working quite like they used to, you know what I mean? so <unk> why i yeah Well, that's exactly it. and especially I had to adapt and become smarter and how to use the tools that I have, and how to use those tools that my crew has.

Speaker: So to remain in that, I have to adapt. I have to be efficient I can't just do the big push and then... um I can't run out of steam. So I have to really... Doesn't work anymore.

Speaker: Yeah, I have to monitor that. I'm not a bull in the china shop. Right, exactly. So that's what I have to really monitor and see how I move. I want to be efficient I have to practice it. Sure. Yeah, that's the goals.

Speaker: so That's where that wisdom comes in, right? Duh. I'd like to call it wisdom. I'd like that knowledge to remain. front. the front part of my brain and keep using it.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Well, tell us a little bit about Winnipeg. I think you covered you know you covered your station. You have a rescue company, an engine company. What kind of unique... I guess. hazards are presented.

Speaker: in Winnipeg. Hello. Well, Winnipeg's pretty unique. We're in the center of North America. Basically, geographically, we're at in the center of North America. And ah we're amazing. for the diversity that we have.

Speaker: For climate, like in the summers, we have plus 40 Celsius down to minus 40 Celsius. So we have the 80 degree differential. that we have to deal with. so Like we we can be.

Speaker: run around the summertime with like over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. With a snowsuit on, basically. And then we're running around in the wintertime with the minus 40. Right. And it it changes the game.

Speaker: It really does, so you have to really know your... your size up, your construction. The construction here is very similar to what you would have except for a little more insulation. Sure. um But we do have a pre. pretty busy downtown core in North End that... We're probably in Canada, one of the busiest fire departments.

Speaker: ah Fighting Fires. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah, so we did we served probably close to a million. People during the day, like say 900. thousand population.

Speaker: evenings weekends type thing but during the day a lot of people infuse in for for their work. And so we have 27 fire stations. ah Just over a thousand. firefighters and suppression.

Speaker: And we have 168 on shift at a time. wow So we do 10s and 14s, the 10 -hour days. 14 hour night still, so two days, two nights, four off. Okay.

Speaker: And is that a result of just the call volume? Oh. had, Did you work a different shift, let's say, 28 years ago? 26 years ago, was it a different? No, it's the same 10s and 14s we've been...

Speaker: ah Requesting. It's 24s. for some time. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So we've been work trying to work with our administration, our union. Trying to work towards a 24. Really? And looking at that best model for sleep. deprivation because right If you get hammered on that first. 14 night.

Speaker: like we did last night. And we're working another one tonight for another 14. It's ah a long haul. But ah because we're a busy fire department, so it's we we run pretty good. We're fire paramedicine.

Speaker: And so we do both. Okay. Yeah, interesting stuff. Um, The... american fire service there's always there's always something going on right um and And I think collectively.

Speaker: Canadian and United States. probably do things. fairly similar, but one initiative that they're after is the 40, or I'm sorry, 2472s or 2496s even in some cases. I want to see if you looked like Austin, Texas.

Speaker: They're doing something crazy like that, right? and it's with the intent of you know, improving firefighter health and safety and sleep deprivation issues. Yes. Yeah, I've been connected with a few.

Speaker: ah firefighters down the states doing different studies and things like that with firefighter sleep deprivation. I got hooked up with Rob. Sweetman. and he was a SEAL Team 7 member. lost to one of his teammates. to a Sleep deprivation -based suicide and robbed.

Speaker: took me in on his study, and I did that study for almost a year. ah for sleep deprivation, how to... Train yourself to sleep. And Rob changed my life. So it was amazing that and then I tried to.

Speaker: get on the road and and sell that. because that really doesn't make a difference. i can I know how to train. I trained myself and and Rob made the difference on how to. Help firefighters sleep.

Speaker: Interesting. the The details of that study were there, you know, biometric. I guess monitoring going on. Yes. Yeah. Everything like a wearable. and then also a bed mat. That goes under your mattress. Oh, wow. I'm recording.

Speaker: yeah journaling morning and night. Um, About your habits? that you created before sleep and after when you wake up. All those, it's quite an intense study.

Speaker: ah But I stuck with it and it changed my life. So what? What kind of improvements have you made in your sleep? Habits. as a result. Well, it's basically, it's a priority.

Speaker: basically is the biggest thing it's not just a routine anymore it's it's actually a priority in my my day of how do I prepare for sleep? how much time before I eat. Drink. ah what Those little things we do before sleep, how to stretch. light um and how to Prepare exactly light. the type of light that I allow in.

Speaker: How much screen time before bed, maybe using some... blue light glasses before if it's an hour before bed. And... ah Really? and And I actually quit drinking. Because of this study, like I realized.

Speaker: From the education and knowledge that Rob... Sweetman had, and he passed on to us his how important it is ah You can control that factor of... Are you sleeping or are you sedated?

Speaker: So it's like not taking any... Sleep aids, anything before bed that changes your chemistry of your natural process of REM and deep sleep. Interesting stuff. and I know we're kind of going on a little.

Speaker: That's a deep dive, man. That's awesome. A little deep dive there, but yeah it's something that it interests me, and I think it should interest all firefighters because it's certainly an emerging problem, or it has been a problem and now it's just coming to the surface as something that we've got to do.

Speaker: We've got to do something about it. um Because, you know, firefighters on average aren't. they're They're developing issues. I guess. quicker in life than the average.

Speaker: American or Canadian, right? And so we have to look at all those kinds of different things and sleep deprivation is certainly a huge issue, both in the military. and in the fire service. so It's excellent to to hear that.

Speaker: that you went through that study and that you've made some positive changes to your sleep patterns. and Hey, Rob. Like being a SEAL member. um He he changed the. US military service.

Speaker: all All branches. So Rob has been, it's quite successful. It's 62 Romeo. giving him a shout out like Rob is. phenomenal And now he's moving into other projects. and Really making a difference for the fire service as well.

Speaker: That's good. Yeah. Well, Lionel, let's let's talk about the event. That happened February 7th, 2007. Start wherever you'd like. and really end wherever you'd like. And again, after we talk about the incident, we talk. Oh. I'd like to... Discuss.

Speaker: The impacts of it? on you personally and professionally and what you have contributed to the fire service as a result. Yeah, you bet. i yeah With Winnipeg, like say we do the 10s and 14s, so we do get overtime shifts. And back then in 07. Overtime was like a unicorn, man, like you didn't get.

Speaker: overtime like you do now it's like normally we have 15 to 20 overtime per shift. But now, back then... We actually would get heads up, say, hey, you might get overtime tonight. So it was a big deal.

Speaker: yeah um Back then, my wife had just returned to work after her maternity leave. I actually had a year off per kid. uh per the boy And. ah So we it was great for a young family. I chose not to work on the side.

Speaker: I liked being a dad, and I chose to stay home. so I got a heads up the night before that I was next up. And so I got a call from our platoon chief. Basie said, hey.

Speaker: and A few options like that, and it was is actually Super Bowl Sunday. And yeah, we we get Super Bowl up here too. And. so And the same thing in the hall. Not just the Stanley Cup.

Speaker: Yeah, not just, off we're trying to get that back too. But ah so we get, that was on that night. And so. Those are some of the factors that really know Very common in the fire station how a Super Bowl is a big deal.

Speaker: And ah the platoon chief, he gave me ah quite a few options of availability for where to go. And they said, hey, just come down to number one. At that time, back then, I was at number one station. It's our busiest station. We had.

Speaker: 20 firefighters working out of there. Great station. It's the big hub and and you're busy. So my gear is there. You see, come on down. So I got prepped up. Headed down.

Speaker: Took me only a few minutes to get downtown. and ah so assigned to that was ah Captain Harold Lessard And I'd worked with him numerous stations before when he got promoted to captain.

Speaker: And then I'd work quite a few day changes and... and different shifts with his crew. on three platoon. So I'm a two platoon. a Firefighter. And so i I got in there and I say, getp hey, Cap, where'd you like me?

Speaker: Back then I was a fire medic, so i would I'd usually end up on our squads. which you just run and you're doing like 20, 30. Or 20 to 24 calls ah a shift. When you say squad, ambulance?

Speaker: No, it's it's um they It's a, they call it a fire truck. It's got a calf system on the back. It's like an F -550 four -door with a... calf system on back. They call it a fire truck, but it does go into many fires. Yeah, the vernacular is different.

Speaker: Everywhere you go, so that's why I asked. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so this new squads, they... yeah They staff it with a lieutenant. and a driver, which is usually a medic. But you still get to go to fires, but most of the time you're just going to...

Speaker: medicals. All day long, just getting smashed. So that's what I thought my night was. But that cap that night, he said, Harold told me, he said, nope. ah Do you mind coming onto my engine? Engine 101 So the... At number one station, the captain.

Speaker: runs engine 101 as one of the engines. and the other engines that are there. with the latter in two squads, would be lieutenants. So we only have one station captain on shift at a time.

Speaker: First station. So Harold was the cap there and he said, yeah. And I said, no problem, Cap, whatever you like. Because back then, Engine 101... would be at the front of the parade, like when one station opens up.

Speaker: And it clears out. It's like. A line, it's a parade. going down the street. It's awesome. and engine 101 is always first in so it's a great it was a great machine to be on back then um It was primarily fires.

Speaker: that it went to. You didn't see many. The captain's machine didn't go to many. uh medicals So it was a great spot so I was pretty excited. Buddy Bynum was driving, so he was in the front seat with the cap as as driver.

Speaker: And. ah There was a new senior man on. This shift. And so you've just been in the rural. suburban stations most of his career and he just was brought into number one. So he's a senior guy.

Speaker: but he um It was a little new to downtown. So I'd worked downtown my whole career at that point. ah So. got Got my gear ready. Got everything evening ready.

Speaker: Crew checks, did everything over with my buddy. We had a roll call. at 1800. The cap went over the net before. This was their second night. And they got two fires the night before, so they're pretty...

Speaker: ah It was a busy night. And that night that on the 7th. It was the coldest night on record that year. So it was minus... 36. And then with the windshield is minus 46. Goodness.

Speaker: so i I can't do the Fahrenheit conversion, so I'm sorry to the listeners. but That's cold. It's yeah. That's what I said. Like when I tell people. cold so Yeah, and he goes out at like at minus is minus 40 Fahrenheit.

Speaker: So somehow the math equals out somehow. Yeah, I don't know. And either way. It sucks. Like, totally sucks, Matt. It's cold. But it... But it's our normal, like we always get a minimum of a week or two weeks of minus 40 to 50.

Speaker: when the polar vortex hits. And so but we're used to it. So it's like that common thing you get used to. Right. And. ah Then we did our checks. Started going to Cook. We were watching Super Bowl that year. It was the... yeah Patriots and the Colts.

Speaker: They're going for that perfect season that year. That's when Patriots had lost. Yep. Yeah, so... so They played the Giants in the Super Bowl, I believe. Oh, giant it was Giants and...

Speaker: Patriots. Was that it? Yeah, yeah, that was the year. Yeah, the Giants, I think, were 8 -8 to finish the season and ended up beating, yeah, probably the best team in NFL history. but Yeah, it was wild.

Speaker: Yeah, we got a little bit of, it we're watching Super Bowl, making dinner, and that's when the call came in. you know Okay. Um, Just it came in as a a working fire, a structure fire.

Speaker: It was in a second do from number one, so we had to go into another district because that rescue. um was out on another run. And Engine 101 would... sub in for rescues because they had all the equipment so it could go into other districts as a as a rescue as well. so as it We used to tit used to have the ticker tape.

Speaker: Now we just saw CAD -based. computer -based so we used to have the paper It had NG -101 with an R, so we knew we were going in as a rescue. Okay. I used to drive in that district, so I said to my buddy that was driving, to say I said, I gotcha. He was going to the map. I said, I got you. I'll guide you in.

Speaker: So it got away really quick. So I try to... really Emphasize size up. I'm starting from the station for my cruiser when we talk about this because Good night. Super Bowl Sunday, Sunday night. Very little traffic.

Speaker: Minus 40s. With the wind chill, so very low traffic, we got away really quick. um As we're going across the ah bridge. over the river getting into that district. the district chief, so it's similar to a battalion chief So the district chief put in a working fire before he got on scene. You could see the plume of smoke, sort of a glow.

Speaker: And ah he put in a working fire. So that was an advantage. So he put that in early because then the working fire compliment was just. ah More resources coming. Dispatch. Yeah, right away. So it's it was good that way. And as we're going across, I changed positions.

Speaker: So I could sit forward. Since we used to always back to back with the driver. Guide him in we got in really quick So we were fortunate. We were the first in rescue. So we usually we would send two rescues at that time.

Speaker: for any working fire because the first and rescue primary search you know you had to dedicate a task And next in rescue would be dedicated Rett. Forgive me if I missed this detail. Is it three or four that you're riding on an engine?

Speaker: Thankfully, we're four. Yeah, we're always four on our engines, but unfortunately only two on the ladders, which we're hoping to change. Roger. Yeah. So getting quick there, first in.

Speaker: ah was the the engine for that district. They got in really quick. They use the term... um We're going to. Go into fast attack, which we don't use anymore. ah So that term they're going to go.

Speaker: What it appeared to be was an attached garage fire. And a residential. Very nice. A 2 ,800 square foot. Cape Cod style with an attached grouch. so Garage was still buttoned up. It was just blowing out the windows of all the windows on the garage.

Speaker: Okay, so is so the door is still intact. ah Nobody out out ah outside that met us. So the first in. Start pulling line. hooking up hydrant all those things but back then we don't we didn't use that UL or FSRI based fire science.

Speaker: ah water. wasn't being applied right away so They had determined that they were going to work on the door to gain access, and then... They're going to... Start working the fire. was the report of...

Speaker: Entrapped. victims was a report of everybody evacuated or you just didn't know. I didn't know at this point because nobody came out to meet us. so Some of the investigation after we found out there was nine calls from 911 that night. All the people in that little cul -de -sac, that little bay had called in. And we found out the ninth call was actually the occupants.

Speaker: There was two boys home. The owners were gone on a cribbing cruise. and the daughter had gone to a movie with a boyfriend earlier. And just the young son was home with his buddy.

Speaker: We found out. After the investigation, they were smoking. in the garage about two and a half hours earlier. dump their ashes in the garbage. Went back through, we call it the Mandor. the very back into where like a office area, the dad was a judge.

Speaker: So you think about the size up of the house, you think it's municipal court judge. Nice home, nice neighborhood. Uh, when The boys went back. but big Two -story. Two -story.

Speaker: Yep. Yeah, they went back down. The house was just... And we found out the house was just... completed a major renovation. So all brand new triple pane windows with gas. um They changed the orientation upstairs above the cabover.

Speaker: Grudge. was a brand new ensuite master bath. So the orientation upstairs is Was change just completed? But I took a bedroom, made it into a giant walk -in closet.

Speaker: So a lot of changes and it was just being buttoned up and painted and finished. The boys were down in the basement. for approximately two and a half hours. They smelt smoke. Came upstairs late. He's not like a big smoke.

Speaker: I'll fit like a layering in and going on just light haze in the house. They're looking for fire. They go in the garage. In the mandor through the house they find a working fire. so It was fully involved. Two cars and everything we store in our garage. So then... They go back. Run back through the house.

Speaker: But they don't realize from the investigation we found out that the door didn't latch. that steel door rated door at the back of the garage. Wasn't latched. The boys ran out the front door. ran to the neighbors.

Speaker: And they called 911. They were the ninth call. Gotcha. Yeah. So then the crews are working. ra open They see clicked yeah, I didn't click Is that how the smoke and fire was introduced into the home?

Speaker: Or... ah There was light when the crew said. seen some of the investigation it showed. A lot of. swirling crazy around the door.

Speaker: ah But then um I'll get into the, I'll explain a little bit more once we get into that incident there. Gotcha. Yeah. So the crews are all assembling. Um, The first in, like the first in engine, second in engine.

Speaker: Took up the whole bay with the district chief, was able to wheel his rig up. and get a good assignment out or a good positional front. And. ah So there were we were very task -based back then.

Speaker: You know, so we knew at first an engine. Maybe fire tech. taking a Mobile Command. And the next engine was going to take a line in off that first engine. and they're looking for extension. And when you say fast attack earlier, do you mean that we are not...

Speaker: catching a water source right away. We're going right to the home. and we worry about our water source. after we've deployed lines and entered the facility. Yes. Yeah, that's how they used to we used you to do it. yes Yeah. And so that third -in engine, it would normally...

Speaker: Secure the wire supply and bring in. Yeah. But this case, the wash clay was right beside the engine. It was like an island in the center of the cul -de -sac with the 6 -inch dead -end main hydrant.

Speaker: Okay. So they were like a pony away, like a 30 -foot pony. Yeah. Yeah, so they got a 30 -foot pony attached to that. But one of the biggest things I found looking after that at this instant after is...

Speaker: The crew continuity almost every crew that was attached this incident Had a different member from overtime or day changes. Yeah, it was. Yeah. So your team was not...

Speaker: Your crew was even, there was a senior man that wasn't familiar with the area, and then you were on there working in overtime shifts. so That's right. Yeah, so that crew continuity is so important. like how you train, how you practice.

Speaker: and have that team that you've established. ah So almost every machine that responded had that issue. Hmm. Interesting. And which is very common in the fire service today, as you know, like with the with the overtime issues that we have. and so Everybody is on their own playbook. how I put it.

Speaker: And ah so all these things were put into play. Uh, The line was taken off the the truck. They're preparing, grabbing a K -12, coming down the door. ah We get on scene, we're at the back of the cul -de -sac at the stop sign, so we walk forward.

Speaker: We used to split crews because we knew we were going to be primary search. Our captain took that senior firefighter. When Ford... I was waiting for my driver to get ready. I grabbed a tool. And we started walking forward.

Speaker: And I remember... I'm not sure. We both always questioned this for years. um We actually stopped, did a buddy check. A simple thing that took ten seconds. I did the extra flap around my neck. I brought my tarp down off my helmet.

Speaker: um just protected that portion and it Probably that 10 seconds probably saved our lives. A simple thing is a buddy check, man. It was... um We always question it. But then we're we're moving forward.

Speaker: A lot of the things were. We're being verbalized like a face -to -face. because we had just switched over and had all new radios incorporated into our all All our rigs now, everybody had their own radio. Back then, you'd usually always have one, sometimes two.

Speaker: um But that's how I started in the fire service. Now everyone had a radio, but they say, okay, let's wait till spring. We'll get the training going. Don't hit that red button because it really screws things things up for dispatch. Just turn it on and off. And that's it.

Speaker: Like we didn't understand that that was our. Lifeline. Right. Right. And when you're not used to talking on the radio, the vernacular, the the verbiage that you'd use, right? So all those things were going to be taught. clear Yeah. yeah Yeah, and also that static, that feedback that you get if you're too close back then, how the radios were.

Speaker: ah set up. A lot of feedback, a lot of... Uh, distortion that you get more of a pain let's just turn them off Talk face to face. Yep, basically. Yeah, basically. And so that was going on. Here's a... Over, it was like 36 years in the fire service, our district chief that was there, and he was doing everything just.

Speaker: Throwing everything out. Face to face, calling the crews out. Getting them going. So all those things were happening like just as normal. Everything was. looking like a normal fire. except the fact that no line was on the fire at this point.

Speaker: No line at all. So they're working on look trying to get Access. Well... First in crew, they went inside. to look for extension. We were right behind them, pumping hose, pumping their hose link for extension with primary, because with primary, we work off the hose line.

Speaker: So our our primary crews, our rescues, work off the hose and doing... their primary searches. Hmm. And so when we're they're all going upstairs, they went to the second floor. So the first floor.

Speaker: As the crews are going in, nothing was. on the radio about the floor below. being clear. So that was a huge point in the investigation, especially after, especially as deep diving into this about the why. That first floor never got cleared before the crew went to the second floor.

Speaker: to look for a possible occupants and also extension above that garage. Was there reason? We didn't clear the first floor. or I think it's a practice.

Speaker: I think it was just a ah basic practice of just going above and... and Never getting caught. Roger. Because there'd be some near misses back then. ah years before, but nothing to the degree that we were caught in. Roger. And there's a basement as well?

Speaker: Yes, basement, very common in our city. Majority of the homes, most of the neighborhoods have basements as well. So we're talking three levels then? No. Okay. Yeah. And very nice neighborhood. So call the SAC. pie -shaped lots.

Speaker: A lot of pools, big fences, locked gates. a Very secure, no back lane. access at all. so Yeah. So very tight for, say, your ladder to get inside for operations.

Speaker: Yeah, so very tight. That cul -de -sac was jammed up with engines and the district chief's vehicle. And was there a reason we that there wasn't water applied yet? It was just a practice back then that we just get in and look for people? and Yeah, and that's where everything was front side, like front focus there. Everyone's moving in and I'm not sure why.

Speaker: Um, that water wasn't like ah an inch and three quarter was pulled. And, you know, for that now. As a captain. um I'm looking at. my master stream or two and a half. you know, right away. so Quite a change in my... My size ups. from this.

Speaker: Roger. Yeah. So the crews are looking, everything's. Working as normal as, as we're entering my partner and I. I remember as we're going through, the the window was flaming up pretty good.

Speaker: I could smell gasoline and rubber. you know from the tires the gasoline of the gas tank said Popped already. ah You can smell that. And ah my partner remembers seeing an Audi symbol on one of the vehicles. you know, simple little things that you remember.

Speaker: And as you made entrance. You had. Almost 100 % visibility from the front of the house to the back. Just a light haze, no signs of fire, no smoke. for a little smoke. We're humping hoes going to the second floor assisting.

Speaker: The engine looking for extension. And they moved to the left. We got tasked. As my crew, we split crews. So to the crew, we're going. left, we were going right.

Speaker: So... Up there we we split at the top of the stairs. We moved over. I made our way into the front bedroom. And that's where we We split again. I stay at the door at the tick.

Speaker: my partner goes and does the physical search sweeps the room comes back And that's what everyone was born. So this is the first minute of the beon scene. Yeah, this is going quick.

Speaker: Yeah, so everyone's moving quick. um It's a pretty good working fire, like it's flaming up pretty good. And... ah I could hear some of the work ah chatter on the radio. I'm listening to the chatter. My partner, his radio is getting a lot of feedback. And he goes, hey, I'm going to turn my radio off. I get a lot of feedback. He said, I'm turning my radio off.

Speaker: Let me know what's going on. Okay, so that's... Okay. one of those little ah I talked a lot about Pride Committee. yeah Yeah, very good detail about... um those radios and what they're for.

Speaker: And. Especially with Don Abbott's project committee, I bring that up a lot. so i might correlate and bring a lot of is. Okay. Trigger statements up. you know some of those things.

Speaker: Well, unfortunately, you were limited with the technology back then, too. And even further back than 07, right? so Just, I guess. and Yeah. and and Unfortunate reality.

Speaker: of the time you know technology limits our our capability to communicate back then. If you have feedback, it's just ineffective, right? Tool. Am I right in saying that? Yeah, and a distraction.

Speaker: Right. It's a huge distraction. Yep. Yeah. So we're working, my partner's on the far side calling out what he has. He remembers. calling out that window i marked it with my tick that he got a window And so he's working his way.

Speaker: Now the crews on the other other side of the house that were looking for extension. Uh, We're finding no signs of fire, no heat, no fire, very little smoke. And so the captain on engine two looking for extension, he.

Speaker: Sent one of his members down to go grab a bike pole. They're going to pull the ceiling, check if it ah had extended into the main part of the attic. And this remembering that this was a major renovation they had manipulated.

Speaker: portion of the rafters and and the beams up in the supports. And back then, the the building code was very different. So they didn't have that double drywall. all those things that separate.

Speaker: the living quarters from garage and also up in the a renovation. That main attic was all one. open area. Got it. So...

Speaker: So, So the fire from the garage breached. just a single layer of drywall into the attic space and that's really where the the problem It got worse. yeah Yes.

Speaker: Yeah, and also a huge insulating factor is that snow load that was on the roof. There was probably three feet of snow on the roof. That was really... insulating what was happening there. And when we went interior, the 360 had not been completed. They had three sides, the Elfo, Bravo, and... Delta. and the district chief had tasked a lieutenant.

Speaker: from the latter. to go and complete that 360 because of the snow and also a lock gate. So he had tasked him. And as we were in tier, that's when that lieutenant was making his way to the Charlie side to complete that 360. It's difficult. to get the charlie side with the snow accumulation i'd imagine Oh yeah. Yeah, and that that was part of the problem and ah for the delay in that completed 360 and then tasking another officer to go and complete it. Because not only do you have snow, but it's...

Speaker: what, 30 Celsius. Right, so it's that hard layer on top of the snow, right? so I mean, I've i've yeah seen firefighters cut their hands, cut their arms when they fall through that hard first layer of the snow. And, you know, it's a sharp.

Speaker: Ice shard, essentially. So... It's a challenge walking through all that stuff. Yeah. And especially I said, like in the front yard is three to four feet. so going trudging through that then trying to get through a lock gate with all the show that no ten and everything else Yeah. Yeah, everything was piled up pretty good. yeah And so all that's going on at the same time.

Speaker: And the member went down to go grab a pike pole. Then the member that was on the nozzle, we call him the branchman. So it's pretty, I like a British term. So the branch. on the first on the branch or the nozzle, was in that far bedroom. Now he's moved from the Alpha Bravo. Second floor, now he's moving.

Speaker: to the second floor. ah to the Bravo Charlie corner, which was the master bedroom. from the master on suite. They're making their way, finding no signs of fire. Uh, He decides to take out a window.

Speaker: And so we took out this window. And as he did that. Yeah. Unfortunately, he was more force he was saying more for smoke visibility. Yeah.

Speaker: yeah Yeah, so... is you could see it was starting to accumulate and then i'm watching on my tick i could start seeing soot accumulating on my tic. And like I was just wiping away off my screen. So this is very different technology of tech. Plus also.

Speaker: I didn't have that fire science knowledge that I do now. of understanding that. Soot was accumulating. Something was changing in the box. And at that as at that point, as this was happening, The grad's door had come down.

Speaker: and they brought down that open 16 -foot door. And now that big open space was open. And the wind was coming from the north, northeast. into the alpha side.

Speaker: So that was that big opening now. And now we've got what it needed. Hmm. Yeah, and so they had an inch and three -quarter line at that point just applied, and that's when the district chief...

Speaker: He got a call from the captain looking for extension. He said, cat ah Chief, we need a a PPV started at the front door. So just to... Get some smoke. Yeah. Try to get that lift. That's further intensifying it.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. So that thankfully he said negative. to ventilation as he was watching that. Uh, that front. Garage door come down. He saw a puff of smoke come out.

Speaker: and suck back in. and Not just due to the wind, but also to what was going on in the box. So. I think he said negative to ventilation. I want you guys to evacuate, evacuate, evacuate. So that's when he called us out.

Speaker: I remember hearing the air horn. Going off. And that's when I heard the evacuation call. That's when I called my partner. I said, hey, bud, we got to get out. They're calling us out. No urgency.

Speaker: Because my inside didn't match. is outside from what he saw. Yeah. Right. So I'm thinking, hey, we're just doing a primary. Something's going on. They're just going to pull us out. We got time, yeah. Here we got time.

Speaker: So my partner's probably... 8 feet away from me. He starts making his way towards me. And. ah Again, his radio's off. He, as he's come towards me, all of a sudden a thick black turbulent smoke just dropped on us within seconds.

Speaker: So they called it Blackfire. So this is a term that we weren't really aware of and really acquainted with. at the at that time. But it's a precursor to Flashover.

Speaker: And so... As my partner was getting to, he ran right into me. Like we couldn't even see each other. I had a helmet light, chest light, everything. And so I said, hey, I got it. Let's hit the stairs.

Speaker: So we were maybe 12, 14 feet to the staircase. I'm in the lead now. I do 180. I now, I came in on the right, now we're on the left, we're off the hose line. He's on my boot. Follow me out. We're clearing that hallway as we make it. We could hear a lot of...

Speaker: commotion over in the other part of the house. Because the other members are converging as well, right? So all those other people are coming out and and leaving as well. And um I get the top of the stairs. I feel the 4x4 post. I feel that top step. I say, hey, got the stairs.

Speaker: And that as I was... um hitting that there The... Person outside, again, the pike pole saw. the conditions and saw what was happening he started running to the front door And he said he was screaming up to us, but it sounded like a ah train coming at us.

Speaker: And that's when it erupted up to the second floor. It did look like the wall. had breached. It looked like just a wall of fire coming up at us. But we got from the investigation that it was that door that wasn't latched.

Speaker: And he was blown in half, like bent down and blown in half and found in the kitchen. And it it came from that door. up to that vent point that was created.

Speaker: So it created that flow path. Within so within ah a blink of an eye, it was like a a second that this erupted up. So everything around us, all that black fire, all that fuel.

Speaker: Yeah, right in right in that flow path. Yeah, so we were right in it. Thankfully on the top of the stairs, they had a glass. ah four foot. Well. like ah the new railings and everything was pretty modern back then ah being glass, but that four foot wall protected us, but the heat was unmanned. It was unbelievable.

Speaker: everything around us lit up. And it was orange everywhere around us. So. ah The heat, especially my left side. I tucked back where my partner was and it just lit up around us.

Speaker: ah We said let's get back. We got a room. We got a window. We got a window. So we knew we only had... Like a short crawl. to get to that safe window. ah to make our exit.

Speaker: Now, was there any communications on a ladder, on the Charlie or the Delta? or anywhere else or we're just not at this going out a window. and Whatever's... Below us is below us.

Speaker: Yeah, and that's that's a good question because... you know training was really our benchmarks that we'd rely on And. that We had nothing back in 07. We had nothing in our operating guidelines that stated Mayday.

Speaker: Nothing at all about emergency egress. Nothing that was established that way. um We did have tons of... ah Operating Guidelines for writ. We're very writ heavy. We did a lot of training the year before. We just did a company -wide writ drill. like that 12 to 1 ratio, like what Phoenix had done those years before. And we are really implementing that. Plan. but nothing.

Speaker: Was interrupting guidelines. Individual survival or whatever. Yes. or Or made it. Or how to call or initiate a media. Yeah, yeah. So we're always the rescuers, but never. the person that needed the rescue. gotcha So that was a huge factor because...

Speaker: Nobody. was on the radio. Because the outside crews had no idea that we had just experienced a flash over. The only person that saw it... was that Lieutenant that was on the Charlie side saw the first floor erupt, and then it blew out that window on the second floor.

Speaker: So he was running around. in the back and running to the front. So try to note that. Yeah, just to notify. So all those things happened within seconds. So my partner are trying to make her way as He remembers letting go of my coat.

Speaker: and beelining it for that. that window because he had room orientation he knew exactly where to go Then as I was turning, I remember turning, all of a sudden I got hit. and knocked down the hallway.

Speaker: I initially thought I got knocked into a closet at the very end of the hallway about eight feet. But it ended up being it was a small little bathroom. We hadn't gone through that, so I didn't know that layout. So I was there pretty disoriented. I didn't know what hit me. I landed flat in my back. I get up pretty quick Heat was incredible.

Speaker: Um, all my gear had been saturated. So every movement now was pretty painful. My nail beds, everything's tingling on my hands. So I go to my tech, I try to, uh, read it, take a look what's going on.

Speaker: We didn't realize that that black fire event. had coated us with a thick... ah layer of soot and it baked on us so my face piece was blacked out I had to wipe out the...

Speaker: The screen's still on my tick. I'm not sure if it was my glove or my... ah My sleeve, I wiped. and all I could see is white screen. on my tick, so I dropped it. It was tethered, so I knew. Everything's hot, so I went back to what I was doing.

Speaker: I'll sign out. on a right hand to get. back to that room. but not realizing that I'm on the other side of the hallway now. So I was pretty disoriented. So I was heading on the right, but now I'm on the right side on the opposite wall in a blackout situation. What knocked you out? What knocked you down?

Speaker: So I'll get – that's another little nugget that I'll – feed into... with the aftermath of what happened during the whole incident. So I'll give you that as well. ah So.

Speaker: I'm on my own. My partner remembers he heard. Something but he didn't know what it was. He was beeline in it for that bedroom He was a big guy, like 6 '7". Um, He was in between the bed and the dresser, and he he didn't think he was going to make it.

Speaker: due to the heat. So he's trying to make his way and all of a sudden... He reached out, felt that little dormer step. The dormer bench. and he knew he had the window. So. ah He remembers that he had these big old winter mitts. He hit the Venetian blinds.

Speaker: So he heard that sound when that they make when you hit him with your glove, knew he had a window. um I'm in the hallway. and find my way out. I'm looking now. to try to find a bedroom where we were.

Speaker: um I come across a firefighter laying on the floor. ah his boots i find how i grab him i think it's my partner i thought He must have got knocked down too. So I'm shaking him. I say, hey, we got to go. We got to get that window. Let's go.

Speaker: So I'm grabbing them and I hear it's my captain. So it's Captain Harold Lessard. I grab the cap and I pull him into the first bedroom I find. But now I'm actually on the Charlie side.

Speaker: ahlthough not the alpha side. My partner. has found the window on the Alpha. Edrum. Now I'm on the Charlie bedroom on the Charlie Delta corner. So I, it literally felt like I moved like two feet and I.

Speaker: I... i hit the back wall and I have my cap with me. I'm pulling them with me and I got them there and I reach over to my right and I find a window right away. It's like instant relief. I say, cap, cap, I got a window, I got a window.

Speaker: I felt like he were good. All right, we're good. Again, still no sound, no... um radio messages that we're in trouble or that what had just happened.

Speaker: So I go out that window. i Then all of a sudden we hear my partner. On the other side of the house. screaming, I got a window, got a window, breaking glass. And so he... Punched out and then he dove right through that window thinking that he's going to go down. Two stories.

Speaker: ah But thankfully, he fell down probably maybe two feet onto the porch roof. So thankfully he landed in the snow there. Uh, but started sliding, almost fell off the roof, but calmed himself on the rain gutter ah because he was blocked out. Couldn't see anything. From that soot.

Speaker: And ah thankfully, with there's a secondary means of egress ladder made his way down. He got down. He's looking up waiting for me to come. mm -hmm And ah he said it felt like forever. Yeah. Yeah, but i he didn't know I was wasn't with him.

Speaker: So you went over. He went to the... district chief who's command right on the front driveway. He goes, where is everybody? And the district chief is like, what are you talking about?

Speaker: He said, we just had a flashover. He had no idea. Then instantly, ah Bruce, the district chief, he put in. RIT. We have... four members trapped on the second floor. RIT, you're engaged. They are just...

Speaker: came up and they were already staged because of his quick... action of making a working fire. So those are the guys we were just sitting in the kitchen with, Engine 103. um That lo acting lieutenant.

Speaker: um And his crew. Like you don't get to choose your writ. You don't get to choose the crew but if I could re -choose... That was it. That was the crew I would want to rescue me. So it was pretty amazing.

Speaker: ah They were going in. They went were going in hard. ah They had an incident recorder line. They got their tick. They tried to make access into the front door. They couldn't make access because of the fire load. So they... The lieutenant did a great can report.

Speaker: and called for a two and a half to come in behind them. And they had the inch and three quarter to make access into the house. We're still on the alpha side. Yes, right in that front door alpha side. Now we're up on that second floor, Charlie Delta corner.

Speaker: And i'm I'm now standing up in that heat and I'm trying to break out that window. So I'm breaking out the window. And. ah I remember my cap. he's right here on my left side on his knees he's going up and down trying to find some form of reprieve from that heat yeah we didn't realize that that Attic was fully involved.

Speaker: And. The floor below us, there was a breach in the soffit from where the fire extended up. Found a... It's a pathway. It was in between the first and second floor as well.

Speaker: So we have that. broiler effect and that heat was just all around us. Plus we're blacked out. Yeah, I could hear crackling around me and it literally felt like we were standing in fire. I'm brushing off, trying to get that heat away.

Speaker: Um, I remember my right hand went through first. And then I just cleared the window. um It literally felt like... Uh, I just broke a window into where the fire was because I just created another exit.

Speaker: yeah Right. and also my partner on the alpha side. cleared his window, Now that is an entry point for wind. Yeah, exactly. So all those factors. were very important. Plus, We did not practice isolate.

Speaker: Right. So when I Pulled my cap into that room. You didn't close the door. That door. That door was still open. Yeah. Right. So all those factors. um but Um, I remember I say, Cap, I got the window, got the window.

Speaker: I'm pulling him toward the window, and that's when we heard... That's secondary fire vent. of the flow path was established and I just created an exit and it vented through us and it was It was bad before, but it got... it got even worse. Um,

Speaker: We're... Basie screamed for help. Yeah. um The cap, I grabbed them. He kept saying, it's too high, it's too high. He said, Cap, we got to go. And I'm trying to get him through that window.

Speaker: And members now were on the other side. That lieutenant was calling for help, trying to get a ladder from the Bravo. They were doing exposures on the Bravo side. Exterior. She was grabbing a... 28 -foot extension, and they're trying to pull it through the snow.

Speaker: And so all those little factors, like Don Abbott used to explain it really well with us. And ah he would explain that it's not just one factor of a fire. There's all these combination of things and you get that domino effect, right? And unless you pull that domino away, stop it from.

Speaker: continuing but it just kept rolling on us. And that. 28 -foot extension, the members were pulling it down. And they went to pull the halyard. and the dogs jammed. And they couldn't get it down. so So frozen and jammed the dog jammed and they couldn't get that 28 foot extension down. So they just dumped it. As they pulled it again, the halyard broke. like all those factors, right? So they'd have 28.

Speaker: foot extension. They're pulling through the snow, the three of them. Trying to get to that back window. Yeah. So they could hear us. their call I remember hearing. them call to jump to jump. You gotta get out. You gotta get out.

Speaker: And, ah So they're calling to us as they're trying to get the ladder up to us. The cap. Um, I didn't realize when as I'm trying to push them through the window, um we had a probably 16 by 24 space and The one member outside saw one arm hanging.

Speaker: I didn't realize his other arm was jammed up underneath and as I'm trying to push him through. Hmm. So he packed out and he said, you go, you go. So I... I went through RIT training just...

Speaker: months before where I did low reduced profiling. And it was just like. Like that. Like it happened so quick. I went through that window. and land is about 14 feet down onto the deck below.

Speaker: And ah it it felt like I fell afoot. It happened so quick. I remember. No pain anymore. Everything, I felt fine. Instant relief. Was there a snow load on the deck?

Speaker: None, unfortunately. I hit the deck pretty good. That's... um Because there's smoke was billowing out of that window. ah The members didn't even seem to be heard. He hit the deck. Ah, but they didn't see me.

Speaker: So they went looking for me because there's... like full of smoke. And um I don't remember this. I thought they picked me up and got me out into the snow, but they said they found me in a snow bank about five feet away.

Speaker: So I would guess I jumped in the snow. That's when they started taking off my gear, my helmet. where I landed on my left side was ah Smashed. And ah my light was melted against my face piece.

Speaker: off Because that left left side exposure when that secondary event happened, everything, my left side was pretty bad. ah I was. I'm feeling fine. Of course, I'm in shock. I didn't feel all the...

Speaker: Um, effects of what the fire done running through you yeah Yeah, exactly. and and they took off Then they took off my mask and stuff. They realized it was me. It says there is, ah I'm a two shifter. right So these two that were standing with me got me out. We're on two shift as well, on overtime as well. So they realized it was me.

Speaker: I was walking around. I graed grabbed my SCBA and walking around the house with them one of the members. um I go with the front. part of the house While they're trying to get that ladder up to get our cap. Now our cap's hanging out the window. They got him. They're pulling him out the window.

Speaker: And that's what my last view of the Charlie side. So I go to the front side. I'm on the driveway of the next door house. The district chief sees me, said, hey, Lionel, you okay? I said, yeah, feel good, Bruce. I feel okay.

Speaker: And then my partner sees me. He comes up, runs up. gives him big hug. He's pretty emotional because I only saw my perspective. Like my window, my door. in my room um He was watching the scene. He was seeing a little bit more on that front side of what was actually occurring. So he was pretty emotional. He said, sorry, I thought you were out. I thought you were out.

Speaker: And, uh... That's where my ribs starting to get a little sore and he gave me a big hug. Um, And he said, Bruce, the district said, hey, take him to the ambulance. It's at the end of the bay. Take him, get checked out. So we're walking there.

Speaker: And that's where we hear. They're doing an accountability that they're missing the other captain. Captain from Engine 2 looking for extension. So. They knew our captain was there. then there is still missing that one officer.

Speaker: Rick was still moving like I could hear them on the radio the whole time that they're trying to gain access. They're on the staircase trying to get the second floor. They're almost there when that's when we jumped out.

Speaker: But then they realized. that Our senior man, they were on top of him. On the staircase. He had. then working the hose line he had stayed on the staircase just hump and hose as they're going to do their primary to the left.

Speaker: And all those things happened within those first few moments. Where? The dark ah black fire vent happened. He was about halfway up the staircase. He went to his pocket to try to find his flashlight.

Speaker: And that's when the... flashover curd on the staircase trapping them on that Chimney And um he he doesn't remember anything after that. ah They found him. laying upside down with his feet close to the top but upside down the staircase unconscious Interesting. RIT was able to grab him.

Speaker: extricate him very quickly. The four members got him. Outside. And all that is happening. So my partner left, run back to help. I continued on to the ambulance. I'm just getting checked out.

Speaker: And that's where a medical supervisor advanced care came. Start checking me over. And ah realized. He took my gloves off and that's when I saw my hands were degloved and black.

Speaker: So they're pretty ah burnt up. ah It's amazing how I felt no pain until I saw my hands. So they threw me into the ambulance. ah About that, my gear is still on. So I fell fine out in minus 46.

Speaker: But then when they put me in that ambulance and then they laid me down, my gear was still on. And all that energy, all that heat was retained within the gear. And when they laid me down, All of it transferred to my back, my legs, my arms, everything.

Speaker: It literally felt like I was back in the fire. That's how hard it was. It was... um I was trapped because I couldn't get ah get my gear off. I had the morning pride gear with the clasps. And they're medics. They're paramedics. They're not cross -trained firefighters. They're not familiar. So they didn't know.

Speaker: uh how to Take the gear off. Thankfully, the advanced care supervisor that was there. was a volunteer firefighter. He knew gear. They grab shears. they cut my gear. They cut everything off. They took everything off.

Speaker: and they had to take one of the medics out because she was pretty upset. ah They brought another medic in trying to get a femoral line for me. trying to get me some pain management so that was those first few moments there.

Speaker: And all that while I'm there. They're helping me. They realized that's where our cap was missing, that secondary ah rit crew was engaged. And they went to the second floor.

Speaker: My partner and another member made it a rescue group, like a six crew. Because of the conditions, the house was collapsing. part of the roof of the garage and the all the contents of that en suite were now in the garage. That part of the house had collapsed.

Speaker: but the staircase was still intact. So those members, like the pictures are unbelievable what they did. for us. um They didn't stop. Um,

Speaker: very impactful because they didn't hesitate. which was unbelievable. ah they went in they found and thankfully that one member that had the tick scanned the second floor Um, The four members moved forward. Two members stayed on the staircase to mark their exit.

Speaker: And the one member that had the tick scanned from where the last known location, the master. but thankfully scanned to the right. And he scanned to the bedroom where I just exited with and where my captain was as well. And they saw a firefighter.

Speaker: and a leg sticking out of the door. So... That was sort of... Changed the game. The two went to the the right. They found him on the opposite the right side of the bed. We were on the left side window.

Speaker: And we were four feet away from the other captain. Captain Tommy Nichols. And there's no sounds. There's no pass device going off. Nothing taught me. So this will explain what happened to me as well. so They're able to extricate my cap.

Speaker: Out the window from what I escaped from. a member dumped in the window. The cap collapsed down. He was just spent. he His energy was gone. They were able to get him out that window.

Speaker: and lift them up with two members. Out the window, they didn't want to take him back through the house. As that's happened, the secondary crew found the other captain on the opposite side of the bed. um No signs.

Speaker: Life. Um, They're in blackout conditions. The... Everything on him, his face piece. is Pack. everything was massively damaged due to the being in that flow path.

Speaker: And from the autopsy results, his son shared with us that his dad suffered massive burns. to his upper body. But unfortunately, Ed burnt through his... Neck region where his hood was, his Nomex hood.

Speaker: and it burned through there, so he asphyxiated very quickly. But. His face piece had or had burnt through. ah both layers, but just a small hole on the the inner inner layer.

Speaker: So Tommy had suffered massive burns. and the radio had ah burnt in the on position. So hampered communications even more so. and So all those factors.

Speaker: i'm within those first ah three and a half minutes. So the writ - Got them out. that met the crews on the staircase got him out rapidly Able to get him out.

Speaker: And. ah they the cruiser started working. Those are numbers. And as they were pulling Harold, my cap, out the back side, The platoon chief that would call this in on overtime, he was on the backside butting the ladder.

Speaker: I'm calling to him, Harold, we got you, we got you. And when Harold hit the floor, that's when he hit the ground, that's when he... Stop breathing. ah The cruise right away. um start doing multiple CPR as they're carrying them.

Speaker: through the snow trying to get to the alpha side. Um, the congestion and and all those things that because of the minimal space in that bay. trying to get ambulances in there.

Speaker: resolve. uh, Chaos.

Speaker: So he perished then at the... Once he... was Removed out of the home at the bottom of the ladder on the Charlie side. Yeah, so that's when they they realized because he was talking to him on the way down.

Speaker: And if they kept he kept saying, it's too high, guys, it's too high. And they said, we got you, Cap. We got you. And that's from... He stopped breathing. And in the other.

Speaker: Entrapped. The other line of duty death was in the same bedroom. Correct if I understood right. on the opposite side of the bed Yeah. Yeah, because when we went in there. And so then we started piecemealing this together. Like, how did Tommy get from that master?

Speaker: How did he end up there? But then that made sense of what knocked me back. Eight feet. That was him. running through that Event. that fire event ended. hitting me and knocking me back.

Speaker: into that bathroom. Yeah. And I come into rest. Yeah. So I was devastating the crews. Um, Two RIT teams pushed and threw what they, like the pitchers around the Wee Bowl.

Speaker: yeah for what they experienced, but they didn't stop. is unbelievable what they did for us. And you shared some of those pictures or you share during some of the keynote speeches that you do. Is that correct?

Speaker: Yeah, I'm very fortunate that we have some of those. It creates a timeline for us or yeah because um as they asked me, how long do you think you're in there? I was like, man, it felt like 45 minutes. Yeah. um is ah actually only about three and a half. Isn't that crazy?

Speaker: it's unbelievable how that portion of the brain sort of Turns off in another portion. Turns out. You know, for that Friday flight. The other firefighter trapped in the room.

Speaker: Were they able to remove him? Yeah, so on that... The far front I was on the staircase. um They got him down, and he he survived. Him and I had very similar burns.

Speaker: And that the two captains were the ones that end up being the double line of duty. Yeah. um So once everybody's accounted for, we we back away. and ah Defensive ops. Yeah, they're just ah exterior only. ah in Basically, they're in rescue mode there. There's ba barely one line on because...

Speaker: Uh, All those crews were in rescue, basically trying to assist. Everybody was trying to assist on Charlie's side. Yeah, all hands on deck. ah really trying to save our own and and they got everyone out.

Speaker: Well, Lionel, I appreciate you recounting that. I'm sure it's not easy, but it's powerful. and uh A lot of valuable lessons, a lot of... things that you, you know, even recognize, you know, 20 years later.

Speaker: you know. advancements and radios and and procedural. um things We talked about focusing our a lot of our attention on writ. And not so much.

Speaker: On. individual firefighter survival and mayday procedures and things of that sort. Of course, we've evolved quite a bit as a fire service. on folks and focusing more on... as a result of events like this.

Speaker: So it's really important, I think, to hear this story, and I know that you know that. but But again, appreciate you recounting that. like I can't imagine that it's easy for you. um let's talk about if you are comfortable some of the things that um I guess, came as a result.

Speaker: First, you know, how your recovery went and then... some of the changes maybe that... that you all went through. and Winnipeg Fire Department. and some of the initiatives you got involved with.

Speaker: you know, in the years that followed this event. Oh, he bet. Like I was... ah Very fortunate that age was on my side and also the fitness level that I had. I prided myself on.

Speaker: I'm being a rescue guy. Back then I was rescue, rescue. Loved everything about rescue. Red. And. um That's one of the factors I think that helped me, especially in recovery. I ended up with a 70 % burn.

Speaker: 30 % was third degree and 20 % they grafted. They took all the skin that was still good. ah from my legs and they grafted my hands, arms and my abdomen. on those first initial days.

Speaker: We're pretty. Um, intense, and there was just so many unknowns. Never been in the burn center. um All the talk of um on my left hand, my left side was.

Speaker: burnt a lot more than my right. Um, And they were talking about amputating three or two fingers in my thumb. ah Which is devastating to... a young firefighter.

Speaker: Think of that, my career was over. Sure. um My wife and I. we're in that room uh that burn centered by ourselves trying to okay what are we going to do now Um. Think of that your life as a father to sure That's going to change.

Speaker: How was the department prepared for? For something like that was there um recovery time allotted paid time off things of that nature they They did have everything.

Speaker: that they thought would work. They tried. So they were supportive. Yeah, very supportive. I would say my our union was the... taking the lead because we didn't have a really good relationship with our administration back then. Interesting. um There was no...

Speaker: chief officer that ever did come to the hospital to see us. um But that wasn't, we had nonstop membership. um The firefighters were there. The community was there, the city. um did anything they could to help us.

Speaker: So I didn't feel, I didn't even worry about. who didn't show up. I was basically appreciative of who did show up. Sure. and So, Very thankful for that. ah The downside of now of seeing this.

Speaker: After. of Was the... The support for the firefighters was tremendous. but those on scene that didn't. Get the help. It was devastating.

Speaker: He said, nope. Give it all to the guys that are injured. They need it. Give it to them. Um... then we get into the substance abuse the drugs the i alcohol the lack of lack of ah having anyone that had been through something like this, of having a double line of duty. Multiple firefighters burned.

Speaker: Um, What's your reaction? Like really like. like most some furfurs. I just gotta get back to work. Gotta get back on the rig. you know, Yeah, that post -traumatic care.

Speaker: Yeah, of just getting back to normal. Yeah. And especially the secondary of... the families of our Cruise. We didn't really have a program.

Speaker: We're understanding what that's doing to the the the spouses and also the kids. right um We had a lot of furfurs leave suppression. move to different branches of our service. ah because their kids would say, please don't leave.

Speaker: It's not true. They didn't want them to leave, so... That it was a huge factor, which... Um, Wasn't addressed until a couple of years later. know Because they realize the aftershock.

Speaker: of such a huge event. and And also how we... Due notification of kin. Back then we didn't have the social media aspect. They do now. But that.

Speaker: notification of kin like who do you call sure Like... Two members have passed away. Um, Membership. that were burn injured, all those factors. Um,

Speaker: One of the things my wife and I really did. focus on after was that that side. And ah ah when I was in the ambulance on the way to the burn center, the trauma center, Thankfully, that medical supervisor, I knew him.

Speaker: on the side as well. And he said, hey, I got a phone. Your wife got a phone, Joanna. I said, no, no, no, don't phone her. Because my wife doesn't like blood, doesn't like... Pain doesn't like seeing this stuff. Sure. And I said, no, phone my mother -in -law.

Speaker: I said, phone to her. She's a nurse. Tell her what happened so she can go to my house. I didn't want some three platoon chief showing up that does know my wife, does know my family, didn't know me.

Speaker: Explain to her her worst day. And so. And him and I came up with a little plan. He even made it better by saying, hey. My brother -in -law was a volunteer firefighter. Get him to come.

Speaker: to drive my wife versus her driving herself. So all this little stuff. um happened because of this. and um My wife and I really pride ourselves on helping families through incidents like this by sharing this plan.

Speaker: that we created. Tip. Yeah. Tell me a little... more If I read correctly, or maybe maybe it was during a keynote, tell me a little bit more about your involvement with peer support. So we talked about post -traumatic response and helping next of kin and things of those nature. how has this event translated into um your involvement with peer support or the department's evolution of peer support.

Speaker: Yeah, so I i went to be able to get back to where it took about. 10 months, to get back on the job full duty. Um, I really... was focused on that aspect.

Speaker: of how to support the crews for helping us to help them. um So I really deep dove into training and how to get into pure sport because it wasn't. it was It was used more of a CISM model.

Speaker: But then... we realized the pure sport model is a lot more effective in this type of situation. And so I really got into training, and got into... The CISM is more reactive, right? Peer support is... yeah proactive.

Speaker: yeah And preparing and knowing your people. um you're not going to diagnose, but you're just going to support. And that's what I really liked about it because... in the hospital. I had nonstop care. like nonstop visitation 24 seven, the crews are there.

Speaker: They were driving the nurses and docs crazy. in the burn center because they weren't leaving. And, of course, they'd wear their gear. And. But then what they decided to do was they gave the a firefighter only visiting room.

Speaker: And it was like an old storeroom. They made it into a visiting room for only firefighters. because the firefighters were spilling out into the normal. Or the regular waiting room? And we're not appropriate with a lot of the conversations firefighters have. and So they wanted this private room and you wouldn't believe.

Speaker: The amount of healing that happened in that room. for our crews. Cuz. So many people. Word. damaged from this. um They all could assume that that could have been them.

Speaker: ah Many of them brought their family members to visit. um I was able to take a visitation after a couple days. I remember that was... On that staircase, he was put into a...

Speaker: drug -induced coma. Because of his amputations, they'd amputate. all his fingers a half the finger tips Off and massive burns like I had, but he was 54 and I was 33. So. a very difference in your skin and and your reaction.

Speaker: And so, massive trauma. To him. ah So he was in a drug -induced coma for the next few days. And while they were doing his surgeries. So they put my surgeries to the end of the week while they were trying to... stabilize him.

Speaker: Yeah. yeah So... but During that time, we... Really had a lot of care, but we were on our own. Like my wife and I, like nobody could understand. When I found out. I knew my cap had passed away, but then I found out.

Speaker: Our other captain had died as well in the room. You know, and finding out that sense of failure. It was pretty Pretty severe. Of course. Because I was a rescue guy, like my whole career.

Speaker: I basically trained on. that moment. And knowing that I. I didn't. succeed. I was devastated. ah So that survivor guilt really started to creep in there.

Speaker: those first few days. which really catapulted me into trying to work on this peer support after. um Understanding that. um that feeling.

Speaker: Doesn't go away. um I still have that feeling of loss. um But it doesn't hold me back. It's actually a motivator. inspiration to move forward. ah to stay in the fire service.

Speaker: So. first of all was peer support in the the regular model of mental health and watching ah watching your crews back. And then I really got into...

Speaker: firefighter, burn survivor, pure sport. really more specific. about those firefighters that we have that are involved in line of duty incidents that are injured. in the line of duty.

Speaker: and either are medically retired or want to come back. And those are the farfas I really engage with. I try to help. of because We can assign... um We can feel the same thoughts.

Speaker: I have that same mentality. And... I feel so bad when a firefighter gets meant ah medically retired. Because you don't get to dictate your end. what you want to do with your career. I was fortunate that we got to fight.

Speaker: And I got back on. And so that's why I really engaged with the... Firefighter Burns Farby Clear Sport. Yeah. Which it sort of took me in a different direction.

Speaker: Yeah. Such a unique experience. being a burn victim. Only. burn victims are going to be able. to identify with the issues that you'd went through. and so incredible effort that yeah you've got involved with there.

Speaker: Well, it's different because... ah Everyone says you sort of get to know your scars or you're proud of your scars. I didn't feel that way It was shame. We felt a lot of failure. no doubt um Losing another member, i like I said, it was...

Speaker: is the most devastating part. Yeah. Yeah, but then finding another brother or sister That has these scars and how. your bond becomes very strong.

Speaker: And I really appreciate and loved. That poor part of becoming a peer. um Being that... person that they could lean on. that they could tell. their fears, their wishes, their All those things that... The loss, especially.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, especially that. Um, in that in that moment. So I i got involved with A firefighter burn survivor retreat. that we host every year. In Colorado.

Speaker: So I'm really big into that and I got my... Krista Butte hat on. Oh, cool. yeah It's in Crested Butte. we We work with an adaptive sports center. because a lot of the firefighters have nerve damage.

Speaker: restrictions due to the graphs. um amputations. legs, arms, hands. ah So... We work with the adaptive sports. We help the firefighters.

Speaker: regain a sense of self. of finding the life that they thought they lost. Like a big one that's like... A really good friend of mine, if you remember Pete Dern. From Fresno.

Speaker: When Pete was... ah Caught in that garage fire. He went through the roof. Pete's one of our our guys that came to our retreat. He thought he would never ski again. We got up to our retreat. We took them ice climbing. You took him skiing. Pete rips. Like this guy was an all out. extreme skier, yeah before.

Speaker: and lived on the slopes. And we brought him out there, and man, I was doing all I could to keep up with him. Like, is it was... It was probably the most amazing thing to see. Yeah. because they adapt to sport, because Pete's hands are pretty damaged. They had to basically secure his hands to the poles so he wouldn't come off.

Speaker: ah but Pete Ripman and he was right at the top of the mountain right to the bottom um I've never seen such a happier man. Good for him. Yeah, it was good. Good feeling. That's what we have every year. Like we try to bring probably six. What did you say the name of the organization was?

Speaker: ah So we, our parent, like the one that started was a DC firefighter burn foundation okay through Jason Woods and Charlie Shia. Um, Is that DC District of Columbia or?

Speaker: Yes. okay Yeah. It's the city. Yeah, they so their burn foundation had this idea. And so I jumped on board right away and we started it in 2012. And so we reach out and we follow incidents.

Speaker: um If we hear of an incident like... cross Across North America, we... Reach out. We... interview them. we're Like with our peer support training, we see if they're set.

Speaker: And are available. like mentally and physically, Sure. Because we want them ready to. Take on this next. Adventure. right And especially if they're medically retired or...

Speaker: ah working at going, trying to get back to work. Because most of the time you feel you lose that sense of that life you had before and you have this new identity that you're trying to adapt with.

Speaker: And so we try to give them back the identity they had before. Or. A lot of firefighters say that ah we had a bunch of guys from Georgia. Come with us. And they had never seen snow like this.

Speaker: You know, so we got these guys from Georgia. Um, And we took them ice climbing. Like all these different activities we do, we do fat tear biking, we do a... Maybe some snowshoeing.

Speaker: Something like that. We try to give them a sense of the life they thought they lost and they we get to regain an identity that they get to build. and the The incident doesn't have to dictate the outcome. Sure.

Speaker: That's what we give. And we give them a sense of the life that they deserve. god's It's a wonderful event. Yeah, we love a man. And that's annually. And yeah, we're going to go this year, we're going February 6th.

Speaker: to the 12th. In Crested Butte. we have The town opens up to us. They know, uh... We're a bit of a gong show, so they know that we come in there and we we host. We have a house, we go shopping.

Speaker: The crews, we set up like a fire station. You know, so we, they come in, we cook. We clean. we we jab at each other. But then we bond. And that's where the magic happens is when...

Speaker: They start. Naturally talking. about doing so we don't sit in a circle we don't um Kate, it's your turn to talk now. We let it naturally happen. And bonds happen.

Speaker: Like some of them. one -on -one, some are two, three at a time. But there's always we always have had a connection. And that's why it it continues on.

Speaker: Yeah, we're we're very happy to keep this thing going. What an incredible initiative That's awesome, sir. It's... and and going to Colorado every year. um Huge support from the nation. like we have sp It's a 100 % sponsor.

Speaker: So this is no cost to the firefighter or burn survivor. They come. We talked to their spouses. We, so we. Give them our. Our word that we're going to take care of their, their husband or their dad or.

Speaker: Whatever they are. And because it's a big deal. 2. They survived this event. And they the the the the spousal relationship really does change because sometimes they become a caregiver.

Speaker: and you lose that relationship. So that's part of our goal as well is to give them back. those things that they lost. Think they're no longer a patient there now. <unk> returning back to the life that they want so and we also want to give that spouse a break That week, we can take them, we take care of them, whatever they need.

Speaker: um Some of them can't use their hands, so we... Help some. With whatever they need that week, we yeah yeah we get the food going. Yeah. Everything. But they get to cook again. They get to do the dishes. There's that hierarchy.

Speaker: yeah Yeah, they get to be be the people that, because some of them never got to return to the station. Right. You don't have to say goodbye. Just stay there. last goodbyes or to finish off their career. some Their incident changed their life. And so what we're trying to do is really give them that sense.

Speaker: of that they get to dictate the nest. chapter in their life. sure Yeah. yeah Yeah, it's awesome. It is. Um, Well, is there anything, any other...

Speaker: Things. That came as a result of this that you'd like to talk to I saw an interview you did I want to say was through NFPA. on a discussion about like residential sprinklers. I know that that's an initiative that... um that maybe NFPA and some other organizations really...

Speaker: Try to speed your head. and In the United States, at least. I don't know how it is in Canada. But is there anything else you'd like to... to cover. that became a result of the incident.

Speaker: Yeah, because that's that's a great point, Matt. This incident really... did direct us for some time, but my wife and I really did focus on Making sure that we. We're in charge of the next chapters.

Speaker: Of our life. and ah I got involved really big into the IFF Byrne Foundation. ah First was at Pure Sport. um but also then use initiatives of back to work. How do we help these firefighters through their local and through their membership?

Speaker: How do we support them with? What type of clothing do they wear? So I really got... I jumped all in. with the Burn Foundation as a coordinator. for Central Canada. And I and i also also help all the other coordinators within the U .S. and Canada.

Speaker: And any um anything from across the seas as well. So we try to help any... We're an injured firefighter. and their family. So we we created an initiative for...

Speaker: Uh, A ah fund. that that we can give the family. for that all those costs that maybe aren't covered. Right. So set up hotels, set up. a local liaison that's going to be the in -between from the administration to the burn team.

Speaker: um really get involved with that. So creating models of being a liaison. So then the family doesn't have that. Um, always ah in front of the camera or always in front having to make decisions. we can give them best practices. And that's the goal of the IFF right now. We want to give that family and that firefighter a fighting chance by understanding what our best practices are. not only just for burn care.

Speaker: for the aftercare, the rehab. the clothing they should wear. the type of physicality they need to be. you know, all those factors and If they want to get back on the job, how do we help them? Merge back in to be in operations if they choose.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, so it's wicked. But then that also spurred into... ah me joining the Fireground Survival Cadre. Um, as a Master Instructor. So i I jumped in on that in 2009. There was that online program that they were beta testing. and I took that and I was like, man, this.

Speaker: All those problems we have. That online program showed me the solutions to the simple things. That we just weren't training on. Yeah. It wasn't that we we missed them. It's just that's how we operated back in 2007.

Speaker: right so huge huge in that way. And then I found there was a um I trained the trainer when they first... deployed the program. They had a lot of beta tests across North America. and i My wife was very patient with me, but my Um,

Speaker: how I really want to be involved. And so I went and paid for the new trainer on my own. And or if our family did. So I traveled to Calgary, Alberta. which is in the Rockies to the Western Canada. They were the first train to trainer in North America.

Speaker: And so I went and I i did that, which was. Um, So rewarding, but also terrifying at the same time going through all those. Things again of entrapment and and being blacked out and all that. Because we really didn't have a back to work program here in Winnipeg.

Speaker: So that was another initiative. through the burn foundation about a back to work program how do you assist these firefighters and merge them in and get them. acclimatized to that stress. All right.

Speaker: So. ah being part of the Fireground Survival Program, not only... helped me become an instructor. ah across North America. It also helped me stay in operations.

Speaker: because I was given tools and skills. That I didn't have before. You're that much better a firefighter. Man, and... it It made me a better. Not only a better firefighter, but ah a company officer.

Speaker: But also it translated and it and it came home into becoming a better father. better husband. All those factors of understanding. Why was I feeling that way? Right. So all those factors.

Speaker: It wasn't that... um that high level of stress that I was at and at a high level of activity. Because I was being consumed. and And really involved. So what did I do with my downtime? I got... busy.

Speaker: I didn't have very much downtime. But when I did, my brain would start to swirl. I think about those things and bring me back to that incident. And ah it wasn't until... 2017.

Speaker: where I actually got... Um, I got to go to retreat. Um, I was diagnosed. with post -traumatic stress, which... At the time.

Speaker: with very little knowledge or exposure. um I thought it was a death sentence. You know, I thought I would... month. What am I going to do now? like it's ah It was like another problem.

Speaker: After solving... surviving the incident, now I got... This other thing on my back I've got to carry. yeah You know, so. A good friend of mine. out in British Columbia. Steve Farina, he...

Speaker: was working with a team of clinicians. that created the Wounded Warrior Program. for the military. Yep. And they were adapt they had adapted it into the fire service because they had them. a number of suicides in British Columbia the year before.

Speaker: That. Took everyone by surprise. No one was prepared for it. The why we thought we'd know. ah So these two clinicians. who did ride -alongs. They learned the fire service for over a year.

Speaker: before deploying this beta test. And so... I remember my buddy Steve talking about it. He says, yeah, this is really awesome. I said. What do I do to be involved? Like I want to be involved.

Speaker: I thought about taking the program going. learning it and bringing it back to our city. I wasn't thinking about being a... Attendee. And ah because I thought, hey, I'm i'm busy. I'm doing good. Yeah, you have a couple.

Speaker: two steps forward, one steps back type of attitude. But I didn't realize the effect that has on a family. Right, because my kids were just little. right My wife, we were walking on eggshells. Kate, Dad, would come I'd come home from a call.

Speaker: Still being triggered. from going going to incidents. and not really realizing that I was doing it. I remember one day It was a busy shift. Came home, I was exhausted.

Speaker: And I was oh sharp. And I remember my little boy, Noah. He said, is that okay? I remember that moment, and I said, I phoned my buddy Steve. I said, Steve, I gotta go.

Speaker: I'd love to go. and ah I ended up going there and they realized, like, I thought I was going there as a. learner, a trainer to learn the program, bring back. Right, because I was an instructor, right, thinking, that hey, I should be able to learn this. No, and there's a student.

Speaker: I went there as a student and ah one of the best things is a. Transformation. Yeah. Four days out in the Rockies in the middle of nowhere. A nature. how they implement nature.

Speaker: how they implement their system of Understanding. the death of all those factors. of those crew, those eight other firefighters. And I was anonymous. Which was a huge benefit for me because everybody knew about her incident in our area.

Speaker: Everyone knew me. And then I got to go a place where they didn't. And it was such a huge factor. that I could dump. Like all those things I was carrying for years. Almost 10 years.

Speaker: I got to dump and leave there. And it... My wife, I remember when she said when I came home on the plane, And she said she saw her husband come home. Hmm. Yeah.

Speaker: Powerful. That's great. Yeah. Well, Lionel, you've you've shared some powerful stuff with us. um And you're you're doing some great things. We appreciate you recounting that event. um Appreciate you.

Speaker: talking about all the initiatives and the... things that you're involved with for burn victims. and Fireground survival and post -traumatic stress. Man, you're certainly pouring in.

Speaker: to the fire service and uh As a firefighter, I certainly appreciate that. I know a lot of listeners do as well. um if we could If we could multiply you by hundreds or thousands, you know, gosh, the fire service would be that much better. so You're doing great work. Certainly appreciate it.

Speaker: Really appreciate your time, taking the time with us today. again powerful story Where can folks find you if they want to reach out to you? Or are there any... you know organizations or i Do you have a website link, email address, social media handles where you could point people if they have questions or want to look into the resources you talked about today?

Speaker: So i was born I was born in the 70s, so I'm still on Facebook. So of course, Lionel Crowther. On Facebook. Facebook's still a thing. It's still a thing. And I'm on ah Instagram, of course. ah Al Crowder.

Speaker: Okay. and um Through the IFF webpage, of course, there's so the Byrne Foundation coordinators. You can find us on there. And ah especially on those social media, so I could send that over to you.

Speaker: um If there's any. Like, i i what I really want is to make a network. Um, Working with... ah the families especially, because some people feel... that they're so alone. And that that's one thing my wife and I pride ourselves that we really work hard on is.

Speaker: making sure no other family has to go through what we did. And. That's the biggest thing, so I hope... this What this can do is spread awareness that... It doesn't have to change your life. it can actually Like my wife and I have one of the best. relationships at this point.

Speaker: um I love what we have, our family. what we have because Of the After Effects. The After Effects didn't dictate. Our future. We decided to because...

Speaker: ah We fought for it. yeah it wasn't It was much easier if I would have been... drinking and and doing drugs. ah Would have been much easier. I would have been numb, though.

Speaker: He chose the hard path. and Yeah. And being a father, that was my biggest. a motivation and inspiration was. I had to step up and stop. Feeling bad for myself. Hmm. I wanted to be the father that I had. I i was lucky I had a great father.

Speaker: I had that role model and I did not want to give up. From my boys. ah Then we had a little girl as well. So. Uh, So very fortunate. But... Another thing, if you don't mind, Matt, um one thing that changed.

Speaker: was, as you know, the transition of the Farsers. to knowledge -based evidence -based um i I work a lot with UL. FSRI, I'm on the training advisory committee.

Speaker: Um, making this fire service evidence -based. based on research and development. ah that we can make, I believe we can make fire predictable. You know, so if we we study, we train.

Speaker: All right. And then we put it into action. And that's I Really Love the New Playbook. Let us out the evidence -based playbook. And that's what we're currently working on, trying to get that out to all the fire service.

Speaker: ah From... The first probie right to the... Most senior chief. Everybody can actuate. put this into action. And that's another huge initiative that I love being a part of because.

Speaker: There's so much I don't know. Yeah. And I wish there's so much I i want to. Capture as much as I can. Because my crew is so eager. And the people we work with across North America, they just...

Speaker: ah I'm very fortunate I get that exposure. of students, people that are students. And my mentor, like Pete Vandorp. ah One of the guys, a Chicago guy, one of the best in the business.

Speaker: taught me that. um There's always something you can take away from it. And because one day... You want to be a retired fireman. and And this is the way to do it, by gaining as much as you can.

Speaker: fight for the job that you fought so hard to get on. Um, Don't quit the fight. like Keep fighting for that. knowledge, keep fighting for the experience. Watch your brother and sisters back.

Speaker: and and be known for being a good man. You know, that's that's the goal. Yeah. Very well said. Captain Lionel Crowther. Thank you so much, sir. Have a good one.

Speaker: Thanks brother. all right Thank you for listening to this episode of the Fire Dog Podcast. If you found value in today's conversation, please take a moment to rate and review the show on your podcast platform of choice.

Speaker: It's one of the best ways to help us reach more firefighters and leaders across the fire service. This episode was supported by roll call coins, telling stories of fire departments and teams. through premium custom challenge coins. Learn more at rollcallcoins .com.

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Speaker: reach the people who would benefit most. This is Matt Wilson with Lionel Crowther. Till next time. Stay safe.