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E175: Barry and Honey Sherman (Part 1)
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Barry and Honey Sherman rubbed elbows with the most powerful and influential people in Canada because they were a powerful and influential couple themselves. While the Shermans donated frequently to charities, hospitals, and education, they also created many enemies due to the litigious nature of the pharmaceutical industry within which the Shermans were heavily involved via their generic drug company Apotex, Inc.
So, when the couple’s bodies were discovered in their home by a real estate agent showing the home to potential buyers, many people didn’t ask themselves “why,” but “who”?
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Transcript
Introduction to Barry and Honey Sherman
00:00:00
Speaker
Berry and Honey Sherman were names that most Canadians had heard before, especially those who ran in the upper echelon circles of society. In fact, Canadian business magazine had Berry Sherman ranked as the 15th wealthiest person in Canada, with a fortune valued around $4.77 billion.
Barry Sherman's Pharmaceutical Mission
00:00:26
Speaker
Most of that wealth was amassed through Barry's role as CEO of the generic drug pharmaceutical company Apotex, Inc. Barry Sherman fancied himself a sort of Robin Hood in terms of his role in the pharmaceutical industry. According to Ann Kingston and Michael Vriskalanti,
00:00:45
Speaker
In their April 5, 2018 article in McLean's entitled, The Other Side of Barry Sherman, quote, he touted himself as a patent-busting underdog, the courtroom crusader bravely suing the mercs and visors and bears of the world, so he could provide needy patients with cheaper generics.
00:01:07
Speaker
If we're thieves, we're Robin Hoods, he once claimed." Additionally, per an article in the National Post by Claire Brownwell, Adrienne Humphries, and Jake Edmiston, Sherman liked to characterize his fights with the patented drug makers as being in the interest of average people struggling to afford brand name drugs, going as far as accusing the multinational drug companies of raping Canada's healthcare system.
Controversies and Enemies
00:01:37
Speaker
The problem was that Barry Sherman was not seen by everyone as the hero that a Robin Hood character would make him out to be, not by a long shot. In fact, he had also made many enemies along the way in his growth of the company and his numerous court battles.
00:01:59
Speaker
Former Ontario Parliament member and late physician, Morton Shulman, went so far as to say of Barry Sherman in the same Maclean's article that he was, quote, the only person I have ever met with no redeeming features whatsoever. End quote.
Discovery and Investigation of Deaths
00:02:19
Speaker
It was the dichotomy of the view of the Shermans, Barry in particular, that was on everyone's mind.
00:02:26
Speaker
when on December 15th, 2017, the bodies of both Barry and his wife were discovered by a real estate agent walking clients through the Sherman's home that was on the market. This is the case of Barry and Honey Sherman.
00:03:17
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold.
Podcast Hosts and Community Engagement
00:03:22
Speaker
My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:03:26
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing
Case Overview: Barry and Honey Sherman
00:03:53
Speaker
this week.
00:03:53
Speaker
We are in your favorite place this week, Maggie. I'm sure you were like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. You heard me say that. We're actually focused on a type of case that we don't cover as often. It's the case of a high profile power couple. Oh yeah. Cause normally it's like, you know,
00:04:12
Speaker
small town, average people. Right. So I know each week I try to give you an idea of who the people are who are involved, particularly the victims themselves. But this week, that image of the couple, their relationships with others and what was going on at this point in their lives when this crime happened is perhaps more important than ever.
00:04:39
Speaker
particularly in helping to figure out who might be responsible for their deaths. So this will actually be a two part episode. Okay, we've not done one of those in a while. It has been a while. So I'm going to tell you about the individual players and the crime this week. And then next week, we will explore the
00:05:02
Speaker
theories. And yes, there's enough theories to do a whole episode just on them. Well, I'm excited to get started. Yeah. So let's begin by getting to know the Shermans.
Honey Sherman's Background
00:05:15
Speaker
And I'm going to start with Honey Sherman, which what a cute name by the way. I know it is cute, honey.
00:05:23
Speaker
Born Honey Reich, Honey was the daughter of Holocaust survivors and she was actually born in an Austrian displaced persons camp before her family came to Canada. Okay, I was gonna ask you if she was of like Jewish descent because of that last name and another place on my bucket list is Austria, so we're getting all the points today. All of Maggie's places. Yeah.
00:05:50
Speaker
Honey's whole life, she was extroverted, athletic, social, and full of life. She received her college education from the University of Toronto, and she got an education degree from Ontario Institute for Studies and Education. Oh, look at her. Education degree. That's right.
00:06:12
Speaker
I read in several sources that Honey began volunteering after college at Mount Sinai Hospital because she, well, and with a little nudge-nudge from her mom, had their heart set on Honey marrying a doctor. So what better place to meet one than to volunteer in a hospital?
00:06:32
Speaker
And it was there where she met Barry Sherman, who was five years her elder. And while he was not an MD doctor, he was a PhD.
00:06:43
Speaker
doctor. Okay so maybe not exactly what mom thought but close enough.
Barry Sherman's Early Life
00:06:50
Speaker
Bernard Charles Sherman called Barry was born on February 15th 1942 to hard-working entrepreneurial parents Sarah Sherman an occupational therapist and Hyman Sherman who was a business partner in a zipper factory
00:07:10
Speaker
Barry had fond memories of actually going to the zipper factory with his father. And on one such occasion, and this was when Barry was pretty young, his father asked young Barry to count and box zippers. This is what the factory workers were doing and he probably, let's be honest, wanted just to keep him busy. Little hands busy.
00:07:33
Speaker
But what Barry remembers is how proud his father was of his efficiency. And the fact that this was reported in Matt Campbell's October 14, 2018 article in Bloomberg, Barry had filled quote, more than would have been done in the same time by any
00:08:07
Speaker
first just to make sure that he had put the right number in the box. And of course he had. So pride in this self-sufficiency and in their work ethic really ran strong in the Sherman family. And maybe that's why they were so successful.
00:08:11
Speaker
of his paid staff."
00:08:25
Speaker
Despite the fact that Barry's family was now successful with his father's role in that zipper company, they had known loss. Barry's grandparents had fled to the United States to flee Jewish persecution in Europe. So similar background for Barry and for Honey.
00:08:48
Speaker
And even in Barry's life, he had known loss because he had lost his father when he was only 10 years old. Oh, wow. So very, very young. And it was then that Barry became the legal heir of his uncle and aunt, Lou and Beverly Winter, who had been unable to have children. And I didn't read what happened to Barry's mom
00:09:18
Speaker
Okay, that's what I was about to ask if we knew. Yeah, so I'm unsure as to what happened there. But after adopting Barry, they adopted another baby boy. And during that adoption process, and from what I hear this happens quite often, Beverly actually became pregnant.
00:09:38
Speaker
Yeah, like almost everyone I know, as soon as they adopt a baby, they become pregnant. So she actually later gave birth to three children over the course of the next few years. They had a big family. Yeah, so now they've got five there and all of that was before her diagnosis of leukemia.
00:09:57
Speaker
Wow. Yeah.
Academic Achievements and Career Shift
00:09:59
Speaker
Despite hardships, even personal ones, Barry succeeded, mostly because he was incredibly bright. According to an article in Toronto Life by Geraldine Sherman, Barry suffered from severe lethargy his whole life.
00:10:16
Speaker
And so in the fifth grade, this is really sad and this kind of shows you how mean kids are, but he was called grandpa by his classmates. Just because he really struggled to move fast and get going. And I even read that for his whole life, he really struggled even just to get out of bed to start the day.
00:10:39
Speaker
Wow. And that you know that would be really hard for a little kid because you're wanting to play and run and all that. Now I mean now I'd be fine. It wouldn't be any different than my normal daily sitting in a chair. But despite his body not wanting to work his mind was always working in high school. He won a national physics award.
00:11:02
Speaker
In 1958, when he was only 16, he enrolled in college. He enrolled in the University of Toronto's engineering program. Impressive. And after graduating from the University of Toronto, he went on to get his doctorate in astrophysics from MIT, graduating in 1967.
00:11:23
Speaker
I know you don't know this, but it sounds very Big Bang Theory again. I know. Well, we talked about astrophysics with the Rodney Marks case. So yeah, it definitely makes sense. And he actually had dreams and plans to eventually work for NASA. But during college, all throughout his educational career, especially during the summers, Barry would work as a driver for his uncle's company.
00:11:52
Speaker
So just to have a summer job. But he was given a little bit greater supervisory roles in the company whenever his uncle was out of town. I'm sure he did well at that. Oh, yeah. And again, it's like this entrepreneurial spirit, I think, that Barry got from his dad, too. And so now he's seeing it with his uncle. And it was really that work.
00:12:21
Speaker
with his uncle's pharmaceutical company that seemed to show Barry that this is what he was meant to do with his life to work in pharmaceuticals rather than at NASA exploring space. And so that's a pretty big shift. Oh, yeah, a complete shift in careers. But Barry's life truly began to change with another family goodbye.
00:12:47
Speaker
That goodbye came in the form of the loss of his uncle, Lou or Louis, what's his full name, Winter, right? That same uncle who adopted him, who he worked for, who ran Empire Laboratories Drug Company. His uncle died suddenly of a brain aneurysm. Okay, one of my greatest fears. Mine too. And then 17 days later,
00:13:15
Speaker
in November 1965, Berry's aunt Beverly lost her battle with leukemia. Oh my God. So like literally all of his loved ones are just dying and he has siblings, right? Cause they had a large family. Yeah. So technically his siblings are his cousins, but yeah, yeah, exactly. They're kind of in that in between stage.
00:13:41
Speaker
They left behind, obviously, like you just said, Lou and Beverly did, those four other children. And those children, they were too young to take over their father's company, also too young to live on their own. Because again, Barry was quite a bit older than even the oldest of them. So since Beverly, and I believe it's because she
00:14:10
Speaker
grew up in the Jewish faith and she wanted her four children to grow up in the Jewish faith. She actually clarified in her will that she didn't want any of her family members to adopt her children because I guess they weren't practicing. And so those four children were put into foster care. Which I don't know that that's really any better.
00:14:39
Speaker
Oh, I know. I know. And of course, Barry, he's older at this point. He's now alone, but he's aged 22. So he's at least old enough to take care of himself. And he actually offered to take over his uncle's company, even though he was still enrolled at MIT at the time. But the board of trustees at Empire Laboratories refused.
00:15:07
Speaker
And you know Barry, he's driven. So that refusal, it only fueled someone like him. So two years later, when he graduated from MIT, he made another offer.
00:15:22
Speaker
This one came after Barry showed that board of trustees that they were losing money. I mean, their profits had gone down about 20% in one year. Wow. And so that made the trustees finally ready to just
00:15:38
Speaker
sell the company outright. So this time, Barry partnered with a close friend, Joel Ulster, and they made an offer for majority stock in the company. And various sources said different purchase prices, but they were all between $250,000 and $450,000. And that offer was accepted. Wow. But there were stipulations.
00:16:05
Speaker
They said that if Barry still owns majority share in the company, when his four cousins, so Lewis and Beverly's four sons, turned 21, this was the first stipulation, that they be allowed to work for the company. Okay, that's fair.
00:16:24
Speaker
And the second stipulation was that those four cousins could, when they turned 23, have the option to buy a 5% stake in the company, as well as receive a royalty on a select number of the company's products.
00:16:42
Speaker
OK. So just so that I am understanding everything. Barry initially says like hey I want to be part of this company. They say no. And then a couple of years later he comes back with one of his friends and is like you're losing money. And they decide to sell the company and they purchase majority stock.
00:17:03
Speaker
Yes. With the stipulation that the four cousins can have a job there if wanted and be able to purchase stock and get royalties. Correct. OK. Yes. So because they're thinking we've got to protect. They were called I think they called them the the orphan children or something like that is what the the board of trustees referred to them as. But they wanted to make sure that they were protected.
00:17:31
Speaker
Okay. That's nice. Yeah. But obviously this is if Barry still owns the company by the time they turn that age. Should Barry sell the company, then of course he would no longer be responsible for providing for his cousins because he can. Oh, so I bet he felt a lot of pressure though, in a way, because I mean, I'm sure he loves them. So he wants to keep this going so that he can provide them with something I'm sure.
00:18:00
Speaker
but it doesn't end up happening. In 1969, Barry Sherman began swapping shares in his uncle's company, and he actually sold his portion by early 1972, thus making his agreement to help his cousins, Nolan Void, which unfortunately left them with nothing from their father's legacy. But you know, I wonder,
00:18:31
Speaker
why the father and mother didn't do more to ensure that their children were provided for in regards to like the company. Like make sure that that's in a will or something. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why. And to be fair, Barry had over the years, because remember his cousins are in the foster system. He had lost touch with his cousins over the years.
00:19:00
Speaker
But I bet that kind of left a bitter taste in their mouth, which I'm sure we'll talk about later on. We will definitely be talking about it. Yes.
Founding of Apotex
00:19:08
Speaker
So instead here, now that he's selling shares in the company and he's sold his majority share, Barry instead used the funds he generated from that sale. So remember he bought the company Empire Laboratories for between 250 and 450,000, but he sold it for around 2 million.
00:19:31
Speaker
OK, so he made a pretty good profit there. Yes. And he used that money to found his own pharmaceutical company, Apotex, a year later in 1973. And I'll tell you more about that company in a minute. OK. And when you were talking about that here in a bit, do we know, like I'm obviously not a business person, but what would be the point of you have a pharmaceutical company, you sell your shares in it, just open up another one?
00:20:02
Speaker
I think he thought, so the empire laboratory says uncle started it, it was more like a smaller market because they were focused on things like urine tests, blood tests and things like that as a laboratory.
00:20:24
Speaker
and he's wanting to start a pharmaceutical company. So it was a little different.
00:20:33
Speaker
But before we get really into the company, I want to step back just a second to 1971, because remember he sold the company in 72, started his own pharmaceutical company in 73. In 1971, Barry was in the process of selling his uncle's company to start his own, that shift in work life when his personal life changed as well because he married honey.
00:20:59
Speaker
And that was only a year after meeting her in 1970. So they moved quick. When you know, you know. Yeah, exactly. So as I mentioned earlier, Honey was also the child of Holocaust survivors. But from the research I completed, that seems to be where the similarities between Barry and Honey ended.
00:21:22
Speaker
And so they met at the Mount Sinai. Well, yes. And I think they met through mutual friends. Gotcha. So it appears to me that, and to most everyone around them, they were polar opposites.
00:21:41
Speaker
Yeah, because you said she's like very extroverted and outgoing and he seems to be, you know, more just kind of introverted and focused on his studies or his business, not necessarily his social life. Exactly. Yeah. The McClean's article that I read, that I referenced in the episode's introduction, I think it said it best. They stated the following, quote, publicly, the Sherman's operated as a formidable team.
00:22:09
Speaker
Honey skillfully organized the home front, family vacations, holiday dinners, while her husband focused on the business. She was the company's best ambassador. As her husband waged war with critics and enemies,
00:22:25
Speaker
Honey forged alliances among the powerful who populate the nonprofit sector using her charm and determination to help others." Because it was, like you said, Honey was social and personable and she was in shape. She was a people person who greeted everybody with a smile and a pat on the arm.
00:22:48
Speaker
which i think any successful businessman wants a wife that's like that you can count on to like flatter people and kind of sell almost help you sell your business you know. She called herself his trophy wife who he met a little bit early.
00:23:05
Speaker
Oh, but yeah, she was cheerful all the time about nearly everything. There were times that she would joke about things like maybe Barry's work schedule because remember, I said their polar opposites. Barry was a workaholic. And obviously with his lethargy problems, he led a much more sedentary life. And he would actually be in the office every day from 10 to eight.
00:23:35
Speaker
Oh, good. Yeah, that is a long day. And because he was an insomniac, he would continue sending work emails from home even into the early morning hours. Wow. No, I've got to have my sleep. Right. Even when he was on vacation.
00:23:55
Speaker
while Honey and the kids, and they had four children together, were enjoying the beach or the golf course or the ski slopes. Barry would be in the room, the clubhouse, or the lodge running numbers or sending emails.
00:24:10
Speaker
Wow. So he was dedicated. Yes, he was. And it doesn't seem like Barry Sherman really ever allowed himself the chance to rest mentally. I mean, there were times he would go to his son's sporting events or things like that, but those were few and far between.
00:24:28
Speaker
And I'm sure even when he's there, he's mentally thinking of 110 things he needs to be doing. Berry and Honey at times also viewed money differently. And to illustrate, Honey wasn't out there blowing through all their cash. She flew economy. She saved money where she could. But she also liked to indulge.
00:24:52
Speaker
on some items. Barry, on the other hand, was definitely not what you would call a big spender. On Barry's 50th birthday, that's a big birthday, right? Your 50th birthday. Honey bought him a red sports car as a gift, complete with a big bow. But after everyone left, he said, you need to return it.
00:25:19
Speaker
He's Rodney. I know that's what I thought. I was like, this is my husband. This is what he does. Exactly. But one source actually said in terms of cars that Barry had only had four or five cars in his entire adult life. And he was 75 when this case takes place. Wow.
00:25:41
Speaker
So he drove the tires off those things. Literally. Yeah. I don't think he was concerned at all about the quote unquote things that his money could buy him. Like materialistic things. Yeah, not concerned at all. But at the same time, it does appear as though he would indulge his wife when
00:26:05
Speaker
She wanted to make bigger purchases. Oh, as he should. As he should. Yes, agreed. She drove a new vehicle. She would plan family vacations. And in late 2016, she actually convinced Barry to sell their current home on Old Colony Road in North York and buy a lot in the Forest Hill area, which was closer to downtown Toronto and where a lot of their friends resided.
00:26:35
Speaker
So I mean, he was pretty happy in their house. He was like, this is all I need. And it was a big house that they were already living in, but she convinced him, no, let's build this final home. This will be our forever home.
00:26:50
Speaker
And so the lot for the new home was purchased in November 2016, but the plans for their new home actually required them to file 15 separate variances to get approval for building.
00:27:06
Speaker
So are you familiar with what a variance is like that you would be able to build like a garage that did was this big or could do X Y and Z or that your house could be you know this do this or be this large or whatever. Yes. Yeah. So let's say the deed restrictions say
00:27:26
Speaker
A structure has to be this many yards or feet off of the property line. Then if you want it closer, yeah, you'd have to file a variance.
Sherman Mansion and Legal Battles
00:27:35
Speaker
So they actually had 15 separate ones.
00:27:38
Speaker
And one of those actually was to get approval to have a car stacker in the garage. Yeah. So actually all 15 of those were approved in June 2017 and plans truly began to build what Honey envisioned as their dream home. A 16,000 square foot house with a wing for staff, a 41 foot swimming pool inside.
00:28:09
Speaker
and the like. I thought it almost fit eight of my houses in it. I'm telling you, I was like, I'd get lost. Yeah. Even though the new houses construction was only just beginning, the Sherman's decided to go ahead and place their current home on the market. And I didn't read why since they were only starting to build. And that takes a while because then they could potentially be homeless for a little while.
00:28:38
Speaker
Yeah, unless they had... And I'm going to assume a 16,000 square foot home doesn't not go up as quickly as like a 3,000 square foot home. Yeah, no, it does not. But they did go ahead and place their current home on the market with a price tag of 6.9 million. Okay. So as you can probably imagine, it too was opulent. It had a lap pull in the basement. It had tennis courts and just about every luxury that you could possibly imagine.
00:29:08
Speaker
If it gives you any idea, construction began on this home, the one that they're putting up for sale. Construction began in 1991 and it wasn't completed until 1996. Wow. So it took five years to build.
00:29:26
Speaker
Holy crap. And even though they were asking nearly $7 million for the home in 2017, it had, air quotes only, cost them $2.3 million to build back in the early 90s. But the Sherman's were actually set to earn quite a profit and not just the price difference between $2.3 million and $7 million, especially because
00:29:55
Speaker
Even at the time of the home's construction, most of that 2.3 million building cost, they had been able to recoup. Because as you will come to see here in a moment, Barry was no stranger to being in the courtroom. And he wasn't afraid to fight for what he thought he deserved. So during the building of the home that they're putting on the market,
00:30:21
Speaker
Barry and Honey Sherman argued that the garage that was built, which was actually multiple levels, it was tied to the tennis court, the pool, and then the garage itself, that it was a quote, disaster, end quote, and was faulty in the construction.
00:30:40
Speaker
They filed no fewer than 12 claims against the contractor, and they recouped nearly all the money that they had put into the home's construction. I read in one source that they received around $2 million in the settlement with the contractor, and they had only paid $2.3 million for the entire construction cost. So they nearly paid their house off like right away. They only owed $300,000. Wow.
00:31:08
Speaker
Throughout the family's growth in and out of homes, Barry's focus had primarily been on growing something else as well, Appetex Inc., his company. And in that growth, he was always focused 10 steps ahead, which I think is probably what you have to do if you're very, very successful, especially in a cutthroat industry. Yeah.
00:31:34
Speaker
So to illustrate, and the story I'm going to tell you, it really shows Barry's legal acumen as well. But when Barry Sherman sold his uncle's company, remember that happened in 1972, the group who purchased it had actually added a non-compete agreement into
00:31:57
Speaker
the closing documents, that the individuals who were selling this company would not go into the drug business for five years. I'm assuming in some type of technicality, he avoided the non-compete? He did. So, I mean, again, it shows how good he is in the courtroom. I mean, he recouped almost their entire 2.3 million from their house.
00:32:26
Speaker
In this particular instance, he sold the company, his uncle's company in 1972, and he started his own Appetex in 1973 without technically breaking the non-compete because his shares in his uncle's company were actually purchased under a company name, Bernard C. Sherman LTD, and not under his own name.
00:32:57
Speaker
So because the company who was buying Empire Laboratories didn't notice the omission of Barry as an individual, he was technically not bound by the non-compete and was able to start his own business the very next year. Wow. That's how good he is at finding the loopholes. And his whole career was filled with examples like that one or times when Barry would perpetually fight to get
00:33:24
Speaker
generic versions of drugs that Appetex had created out in the market before they were technically supposed to be released.
00:33:34
Speaker
Obviously these court battles, and there were many of them, they cost Apotex a significant amount of money, but they actually made the company even more profit. Oh, so it was worth it. Right. In 2016, now remember, again, he began the company in 1973.
Apotex's Success and Criticism
00:33:53
Speaker
So he's been growing this company for a long time. But in 2016, the reported revenue from Apotex was 1.5 billion a year.
00:34:04
Speaker
Wow. I can't imagine. No. I get excited over, you know, a hundred bucks. Well, I found a hundred dollars in my wallet that I forgot I had and I felt like I won the lottery. I bought baby clothes with it. Oh, I love it. Yeah. So I can't imagine 1.5 billion, but at the same time that that was his yearly revenue.
00:34:31
Speaker
His number of filed claims in court by that point was around 1200. So you can probably guess that because of his gusto in the courtroom, Barry Sherman and his company had made many, many enemies.
00:34:48
Speaker
Well yeah I can see that. I think it would be kind of annoying like you see his name pop up in a court case and you're just going to roll your eyes because it's like the hundredth time he's been in there that you're always there. And of all of those actions taken by Barry Sherman though they're really two that stand out as the ones that led to the most criticism. So I want to go ahead and take a moment to discuss those now.
00:35:11
Speaker
The first of those cases involves University of Toronto hematologist Dr. Nancy Olivieri. At the time, she was head of research on hemoglobin disorders at the Hospital for Sick Children. In the 90s, Canada had actually passed some patents
00:35:33
Speaker
that made generic medications less profitable for Apotex and other generic drug companies. And so, you know, of course, the Sherman's, they want to make a profit. So, very Sherman had actually set out to increase development for his own branded medications, right? Because he's thinking, well, if I can't make as much profit off generic medications, I'll just create some with my own brand.
00:36:02
Speaker
under Apotex. One of those medications that was being tested was used to treat a specific blood disorder.
00:36:10
Speaker
But after the clinical trials, Dr. Olivier had concerns about the safety of this new drug, and she published findings saying so, despite having signed a confidentiality agreement. So that's how concerned she was about this medication. She was like, screw the confidentiality agreement, I'm publishing my findings. Yeah, I can't let this drug go to market with my concerns.
00:36:40
Speaker
Well, because she broke a confidentiality agreement, Apotex filed a lawsuit. And remember, she works for the University of Toronto. That was Dr. Olivier's employer. I bet she worked for them because I bet they fired her. Well, yes, because the University of Toronto was actually set to receive a $20 million donation from the Sherman's.
00:37:09
Speaker
So they let Dr. Olivier go. So they would get that money? Money talks, baby. I know. And during that same time of the patent laws that were affecting those generic drug corporations, Barry Sherman was doing everything he could to fight those patents, right? That would, you know,
00:37:27
Speaker
He wanted to protect his generic drug company, so he started supporting political candidates who promised to fight those patents if they were put into office. And what's more, the University of Toronto, remember there, that's Dr. Olivier's former employer, but they fire her because they're expecting to get that donation from the Sherman's.
00:37:46
Speaker
The University of Toronto actually wrote a letter to the government against those patents. So basically saying like, we're going to support the Sherman's, right? Like keep those patents away. And when their letters had no effect and the patents were passed anyway, Barry withdrew his millions of dollars worth of promise contributions to the university.
00:38:10
Speaker
Okay. So again, just to clarify for me. So the Canadian government is trying to pass a patent that would say that generic drugs can't like cap off the prices, like they're too hot.
00:38:26
Speaker
And the University of Toronto is like, that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. And they send that letter to the government. And the government's like, we don't care. We're passing it anyways. And even though they supported Barry, Barry's like, screw the University of Toronto. I'm keeping my money. Yes. Okay. So you can see why that moved through a lot of criticism.
00:38:54
Speaker
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00:43:54
Speaker
Alright Maggie, so a second litigation that brought a lot of criticism for Barry Sherman happened in 2011 when the Winter Boys, remember Barry's four cousins who had been set to inherit a 5% stake in their father's company, sued Barry Sherman. Okay, so the Winter Boys are the cousins.
00:44:18
Speaker
Their argument was that without the sale of their father's company, which happened in 1972, Barry would not have been able to found Apotex in 1973. Therefore, they argued, they should receive shares of Apotex instead, or at least the monetary equivalent of those shares, $1 billion.
00:44:47
Speaker
Wow, but he wasn't happy with that though. He was not. And as soon as the lawsuit was filed, whatever way Barry Sherman had been supporting his cousins stopped. And I'll tell you a little bit more about that support here in just a second. So this battle between Barry and his cousins continued for several years until September, 2017. So it starts in 2011.
00:45:18
Speaker
It continues to 2017 when a superior court justice ruled that the cousin's wishes were quote, wishful thinking and beyond fanciful, end quote. Oh, okay. Now to understand why, because I think to some people they're like, okay, well that seems fair what they're saying, right? That perhaps that is true. We couldn't have bought that company without their dad's company, right? Mm-hmm.
00:45:46
Speaker
So here was Barry Sherman's argument. And it was that after his aunt and uncle's deaths, the boys were adopted and he had lost touch with them. When a gentleman named Stan Garden actually came to Barry Sherman in 1988, he told Barry that he had run into Barry's cousins and that many of them were not doing well. So Barry loses touch with them.
00:46:16
Speaker
And then in 1988, this guy comes and says, hey, I ran into your cousins and they need help. Well, you know, that's a little stereotypical of the foster care system. But it was then, as soon as Barry heard that in 1988, that he again involved himself in their lives and he began supporting most of the four.
00:46:41
Speaker
financially, including funding business ventures, buying them homes. And so when they sued Barry, you know, he, that was harsh to him, right? Because he's feeling like, you know, I've been like, I have supported you financially supporting them since 1988.
00:47:05
Speaker
And so when they sued Barry, he was so hurt, he actually turned around and sued at least one of them, one of the sons, back for $8 million, which is the amount that he had given just that one cousin in loans over the years. Well, sir, that is a significant amount of money that you've been given.
00:47:31
Speaker
And so, of course, Barry got a lot of criticism for that because, you know, when family sues family and that gets dirty and messy, there can be a lot of criticism. And I don't want all of this talk about Barry Sherman in court and all of those things to make you believe that the Shermans were completely stingy with their money. Far from it. I mean, I feel like, as you can tell by the fact that he financially supported his cousins.
00:48:01
Speaker
But they, Barry and Honey, also donated millions of dollars each year to charities, including the United Way. They donated medicine to disaster areas. They donated money toward a geriatric center at Baycrest Health Sciences, and most notably, even though Barry himself was an atheist, to the United Jewish Appeal and other Jewish charities.
00:48:30
Speaker
And this wasn't like just $1 million, $2 million. I'm talking like $50 million is what they're donating. Wow. Got to bring that taxable income down. Right. So, well, that's part of it. We'll talk about it here in a second. But Kingston and Frisco Lonti's article on McClean's also notes that Barry would often also loan money to Apotex employees who needed financial assistance.
00:48:57
Speaker
Well that's nice. Yeah, if somebody came to him and they're like, Hey, I could really use some help that he would help them out. But of course, even with her generosity the Sherman's had their critics, perhaps because of Barry's litigious nature, you know, is always ready to go to court.
00:49:17
Speaker
And because of his financial success, there were people who doubted his true intentions with the donation. So there were some critics who say that because of Canadian tax laws, which is what you were just talking about, that, you know, it did take down their taxable income. And it actually, when you would donate to foundations, those foundations could then loan money back to you.
00:49:45
Speaker
and that Barry was actually able to recoup much of his donated monies.
00:49:51
Speaker
And then they also, the critics, they said, you know, if he really cared about the Canadian people, then that doesn't jive with how often he's in court. Because they argue that just the amount of time spent in court fighting the Canadian government over the release of various generic versions of drugs, or when Appetex wanted to release those drugs to the public ahead of time,
00:50:19
Speaker
which were around 83 separate actions against Health Canada in the 90s alone that Sherman had for all intents and purposes actually cost Canadian taxpayers millions of dollars.
00:50:32
Speaker
You know, I hadn't really thought about that, but that is kind of a good point. And so it's because of that reason that people question how heartfelt the donations were. And I mean, I get it. I understand why they felt that way. But at the same time, I don't know if I believe that Barry Sherman saw his lawsuits against the government as hurting the Canadian citizens. As taking taxpayer money. Right. Yeah. As much as just fighting big government. So even though I don't think that was his intent to harm the
00:51:01
Speaker
Canadian people. Barry Sherman, I don't know if he was really, he didn't lose sleep, I don't think, if people viewed him badly either.
00:51:13
Speaker
Well, I think you kind of have to have tough skin when you're involved in any kind of way with the public. I mean, we've talked about that just with, you know, reviews that we get on the show, but can you imagine being like a multi-billion dollar owner of a pharmaceutical company? Yeah, he even, even when hearing the news of Barry and Honey's death,
00:51:40
Speaker
There was the executive of a competing company who had what Matt Campbell, who's a reporter, called in his Bloomberg article about the case, quote, unprintable language to say about the billionaire. OK. Yeah. Yeah. He definitely had to have some tough skin then. Yeah. And from my research, it also feels to me like
00:52:07
Speaker
Barry Sherman was one of those people, as much as he had that tough skin and he was fine if people didn't like him, he also trusted people innately until they tried to undermine him or stab him in the back. So Rodney is a fan of this one Roadhouse movie saying that says something like, be nice until it's time not to be nice.
00:52:37
Speaker
And that's how he was. Yeah, because then the gloves were off if you stabbed him in the back. And unfortunately, he actually put trust in a lot of people over the years that was misguided. So he would fund business ventures of friends or even acquaintances and he was burned more than once. Just one friend alone who he loaned money to went bankrupt and it cost Barry around $100 million. Wow. Yeah.
00:53:08
Speaker
But he was always looking for the next big thing and these new business ventures to invest in. So he was very, very busy. And then Honey was also busy in her role as a public figure for the company because she's going to all of these charity engagements and she's also frequently at meetings. So at the end of 2017,
00:53:29
Speaker
The payer were almost always in a meeting of some sort, either concerning court or work or business ventures or charity boards or meeting with contractors about their new home. And one thing I will say for them is that no matter what they were doing, they were there and involved.
00:53:47
Speaker
Well, again, I feel like just kind of speaks to why they were so successful. I don't think they half did anything. Right. Yeah, nothing at all. So on December 12th, 2017, when Honey Sherman didn't show up to a board meeting for the Baycrest Center Foundation, the other board members found it so bizarre that they emailed her to make sure everything was okay.
00:54:15
Speaker
Who's giving me? It's probably not okay, Vi. Well, so she did email them back and she said that she was just, quote, dealing with some stuff, end quote. And that was why she wasn't at the meeting.
00:54:30
Speaker
And I mean, sure, that was vague. Yes, absolutely. But it could be because the Sherman's were currently dealing with a lot of stuff, especially with building their home and all those other personal engagements. You know, because again, she's on the board for many charities, she's constantly running around.
00:54:49
Speaker
The next day, on December 13th, Honey actually went to Apotex in late afternoon, early evening to- Oh, see, I thought she was already dead, so she's not dead at this point. Nope, she's just dealing with some stuff on the 12th.
00:55:07
Speaker
So on the 13th, and this could have been part of what she was dealing with because Honey went to Appetex to meet with Barry and some of their contractors on the new home because they were going to talk about some potential design changes. So that could have been the some stuff that she was dealing with because they have this meeting with the contractors the next day.
00:55:33
Speaker
honey left Apotex around 5 p.m.
00:55:38
Speaker
Well, Barry's got another four hours of work to put in. He does, yeah. Per usual, Barry stayed several hours longer before heading home. And most people agree that he left around his normal time of between 8 and 9pm because he sent an email from his work computer at 8.13. And that was right before he gathered up his things and left. But that was the last message Barry Sherman would send.
00:56:08
Speaker
No, I know. No further emails or calls that night.
00:56:14
Speaker
came. And that should have sent off alarm bells to anybody who knew Barry. Oh, yeah. You said that he would like work up into the early morning sending emails. Yeah. Tech messages.
Unusual Absence and Discovery
00:56:26
Speaker
Yep. But no other messages ever came. And then something even more out of character happened. Barry didn't show up at Appetex at all on December 14. Yeah, he's dead. Yeah.
00:56:40
Speaker
So to me, that should have meant that someone went to check on Barry. Yeah. But as far as I know, no one ever did. So.
00:56:50
Speaker
I feel like if, and it's a big if, he missed work, someone would have known like Barry's not coming in today. Right. So if he didn't show up, I feel like, and no one knew that he wasn't going to be there. I feel like that should have been like an alarm bell and I doubt he ever missed work. So it should have been an even bigger red flag. I know. And I did see in one source that at this point
00:57:20
Speaker
He wasn't like the functioning CEO of Appetex. He was much more like the figure, but he was still there every day. So his being missing, his absence, should have still raised alarms. Exactly. But the discovery of Barry and Honey Sherman didn't happen until the next day, December 15th, 2017.
00:57:47
Speaker
The 15th began as any normal day for the house caretakers and workers. The cleaning lady came in, she began working. They actually had a person who was hired just to come in and water the plants.
00:58:03
Speaker
And that person showed up to do so, which if I need to win the lottery, if I were wealthy, that is what I would need because I kill every plant I've ever owned because I forget to water it. So I would need good intentions. And then I just, that becomes like the least of my priorities is remembering to water my plants. Yeah. So the plant water showed up. The only people who.
00:58:28
Speaker
normally weren't there, but who were there the morning of the 15th was the real estate agent who had come to meet potential buyers and the buyer's agent. And she saw the Sherman's cars, they were in the driveway, but the Sherman's themselves were nowhere to be found. So the agent and the buyers began touring the home. Then during the tour at around 10am,
00:58:56
Speaker
The Sherman's agent walked a little bit ahead toward the indoor pool that was in the basement of the home and when she opened that door. The lights were off but the underwater lights from the pool were on so it kind of gave a glow so she could see into the room.
00:59:14
Speaker
and she saw the bodies of Barry and Honey Sherman. Oh, how traumatic. Yes. You're just there to show a home and you open a door and there's dead people. Yes. So not wanting to alarm anybody who didn't need to be alarmed, she just closed the door, said, oh, this portion of the home is off limits for the moment. And then as quickly as possible, got the potential buyers and agent out the door.
00:59:41
Speaker
way for her to remain calm during a crazy situation. Yeah, I would not have. The real estate agent then didn't immediately call the police. She actually called Honey's sister to ask what she should do. And is that because they're like wealthy, upsetting people? Is that why? Cause it's a little weird, but I feel like in all the movies where, you know, really wealthy people die, they're always, you know,
01:00:08
Speaker
calling their father or their, you know, aunt or whoever to see what to do. Well, because if you think about it, as soon as that phone call is met, there are reporters who are constantly scanning the. Oh, like the emergency or whatever. Exactly. And so the moment this gets announced or even the address, the rumor mill is going to start.
01:00:38
Speaker
Yeah. I read an article that this could be not the right person, but I want to say like Kobe Bryant's family or somebody like really high profile found out about their dead relative through a TMZ report, like before the police had even got to their house. Well, it actually happened in, despite the fact that this real estate agent is trying to deal with this situation as delicately as possible.
01:01:06
Speaker
that actually happened for the Sherman's children. Wow. So over an hour after finding the bodies, the police were called to the home for a quote unquote medical situation. Okay. So we're being kind of vague. Yes. And law enforcement arrived around 11 45 am. When the police got to the Sherman home, they found a chilling scene.
01:01:32
Speaker
The fully clothed bodies of Barry and Honey Sherman were on the ground in an upright seated position with their backs against the railing that surrounded the pool. They had winter coats on their bodies, but the coats were like pulled down over their shoulders as if to pin their arms down.
01:01:56
Speaker
Oh, okay. Though specific details of the coats weren't given, I got the impression that they weren't
01:02:05
Speaker
wearing the coats, as in their arms and the sleeves wearing the coats. But the coats were kind of wrapped around them and closed around them. That's the impression I got. Yeah, that when you described that, that their arms were kind of pinned down. That's what I pictured, like they're in the coats, but their arms aren't through the sleeves. But it gets even more specific, Maggie. So much so that law enforcement believe the bodies to have been staged.
01:02:35
Speaker
So, Honey's legs were both stretched out straight in front of her, but Barry's legs also stretched out in front of him. Well, one of them was because his right leg was crossed over his left leg, like near the knee. His glasses were sitting on his nose in the same position they always were, and not even a hair on his head seemed tussled. Okay, so not how you would expect to find two people that were murdered.
01:03:05
Speaker
So when police arrived, there were no vital signs. And because of the stage of rigor mortis, most sources explain that the police soon began believing that the couple had likely died on the 13th, which was the last night that anybody heard from them. Okay, so that's when Barry leaves the office around like 815? Yes. Now you might be wondering how the bodies were sitting upright rather than slumped over.
01:03:34
Speaker
What held them upright was clear to anybody looking at the bodies because both berry and honey had men's belts wrapped around their necks. The loose end had gone through the belt buckle and been tightened around their neck and then that end of the belt was wound around the pool railing and that was holding their bodies upright.
01:03:58
Speaker
So were they choked to death? Yes. According to the autopsy, both had died of ligature neck compression. Honey alone also had some sort of facial injury, though the extent of the injury conjecture about what caused it, I didn't read in any of my research. But for some, that detail of the facial injury alone indicated to them that maybe honey was the primary focus of the attack.
01:04:27
Speaker
Which seems a little weird to me. I mean I feel like if.
01:04:31
Speaker
you're gonna harm either one of them, I think Barry would have made more enemies than Honey. Yeah. Well, we'll talk about that actually in next week's episode, but upon deeper investigation, law enforcement actually believed that Honey was attacked in another part of the house. And I don't know why they believe that other than just one tiny detail that I saw in a couple of the sources that police found Honey's cell phone in a bathroom
01:05:00
Speaker
that family said Honey never used. Making them wonder that, you know, maybe she had seen an intruder in the home and she tried to run and she got there. Makes sense. They also found a stack of home inspection papers and berries leather gloves laying on top of them just inside the door that led in from the basement garage.
01:05:27
Speaker
So again, it says though, Barry left something in a weird place. Police found no forced entry into the home. Not as though there were really a need for forced entry though, because painting was going on, right? They're getting the house ready to sell. Painting was going on and a window had been left open.
01:05:50
Speaker
and a basement door had been left unlocked, as was custom for the Sherman's to do. This was a door that I think they often left unlocked. So I wonder where in this house, because I'm assuming it's like a mansion. So where in this house was the window open? Was it like on the first level? Would it have been easily accessible? And then I also wonder, could this have been someone they knew and they knew that this basement door would be unlocked?
01:06:18
Speaker
We will talk about all of those things next week. But let me tell you just a little bit more about the crime. So even if those conditions were not true, that there wasn't an open window or the basement door was not unlocked, those close to the family did say that if anyone, even a stranger, had knocked on the door asking for help, that either Barry or Honey would have let them in.
01:06:45
Speaker
I am not so trusting.
Murder-Suicide Speculation
01:06:47
Speaker
So while officers were treating the deaths as suspicious, even law enforcement had to tread lightly because of the high profile victims. So initially they didn't even name the victims to the media. They just stated that two bodies had been found in the home.
01:07:06
Speaker
I mean, it's not gonna be hard to put two and two together because Barry's not coming to work. Right. So when Appetex released a statement the next morning, it was mourning the loss of Barry and Honey Sherman, suspicions were confirmed. And it was then that police announced to the public, not only that there was no forced entry into the home, but they also said that there was no danger to the public and that they were not
01:07:36
Speaker
searching for a suspect. And when they made those announcements, the rumor mill began churning. Was this a double suicide or a murder suicide? Because why else would they not be looking for someone? I mean, unless they just said that to kind of keep the community calm. But then that also makes me wonder,
01:08:05
Speaker
if, and I'm sure we'll talk about if it's plausible that this was a double suicide, if that could be why it appeared to be staged. So I will say the police did seem to believe at least at the beginning in one of those two theories. So double suicide was actually for most people out of the question because
01:08:30
Speaker
They were in the process of building a new house. They had upcoming plans for a Florida trip in the next few days. Their youngest daughter... Oh, it just seems kinda weird. Yeah, their youngest daughter was just about to get married. In fact, the last time that all the family would ever get together was their youngest daughter's engagement party. Wow. There was no suicide note left. And then why go through such an elaborate and painful method of death? As strangulation.
01:08:58
Speaker
if double suicide were the manner of death. But given the fact that there were no suspects, that only left in most people's minds a single possibility. And this is actually what law enforcement explored at the beginning, murder suicide. Do they still believe that? No.
01:09:21
Speaker
So angered by the implications and adamant about protecting their parents and who they knew their parents were, the Sherman children actually urged the police to do a better job investigating. Well, yeah, agree. Law enforcement did nothing to quell the murder suicide rumors and in fact, kind of fit into them. And fearing that law enforcement wouldn't do a better job investigating the Sherman children actually hired their own experts.
01:09:50
Speaker
As they should. Yes. They hired one of the most prominent lawyers in all of Canada, Brian Greenspan, to help them. And under Greenspan's advice, they also hired a retired Ontario chief forensic pathologist to complete a second autopsy. Wow. As well as a retired Toronto police detective. So the people they turned to were definitely experts in their field. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, they're not just hiring Joe Schmoe, private detective.
01:10:20
Speaker
Friends, as well, were incredulous of this murder-suicide theory, so family friend Murray Rubin told the show as it happens. He said, quote, Let me tell you, I am absolutely confident that he was murdered.
01:10:37
Speaker
Barry would not harm a fly. He wasn't physical. And Honey loved what she was doing. And Barry's quite open. He was open with me. He never told me that he had problems with Honey. That it would be a murder-suicide. I think it is completely out of character." So many people wondered how the police could have gotten it all so wrong. So something I just thought of.
01:11:06
Speaker
is if we're saying it's murder, suicide, initially we're gonna think that Barry murdered Honey and then killed himself, right? But I feel like that would almost be impossible because he had that lethargic problem, right? Where he was like slow moving.
01:11:24
Speaker
didn't have a lot of energy so then are we trying to say that honey killed berry then killed herself no i think i didn't read that as a possibility for anybody i think most people believed that it was berry who had
01:11:40
Speaker
Murdered honey and then committed suicide. So we'll talk about all of the reasons, including the one that you just gave as to why police eventually changed their thinking a little bit. Gotcha. So even though there was a lot of criticism over law enforcement's handling of the case, and we'll talk about some of the mistakes that they made.
01:12:00
Speaker
During the course of the investigation, there were more than 50 officers who were assigned to the case. They collected more than 100 pieces of evidence to test for DNA from the home. They watched more than 2000 hours of video footage and they interviewed more than 240 people. So they have been putting in some hours. So did the home have a lot of home security cameras? It did not.
01:12:31
Speaker
Yeah, so we would not be in this situation if there were. If it had, yeah. Yeah. The Sherman's funeral was held on December 21, 2017, and attended by around 6,000 people, including the Canadian Prime Minister.
01:12:50
Speaker
The family also took this opportunity to speak their piece about their beliefs concerning what happened to their parents. So their son, Jonathan, said the following, quote, these last few days have been a shocking adjustment to our reality. Before we could begin to grieve as a family and recover in a proper Jewish manner, we had to navigate through a terrifying maze of non-information and unfounded speculation, all while trying to support each other emotionally.
01:13:19
Speaker
We want to apologize to our close friends for shutting you out, especially knowing how much you wanted to be with us. This has been so incredibly painful and so bizarrely surreal.
01:13:30
Speaker
But we've been taking comfort and knowing that your hearts have been breaking for us. And for those of you, especially in blue, who are experiencing similar feelings of loss and emptiness and loneliness, remember this. Our parents never left anyone behind. They were taken from us." So, I mean, he's clarifying. He does not believe in murder-suicide. He is saying this was a double homicide.
01:13:58
Speaker
Yeah, those are very strong words. Yeah. He then shifted to a focus on his family legacy, saying, quote, our family legacy, like so many others, emerged like a phoenix from the ashes of European Holocaust, shattered and broken, only to rise and rebuild and to thrive.
01:14:16
Speaker
In honor of our parents, we promise to do the same thing now. My sisters and I pledge to rise again and to continue thriving and to continue building our parents' legacy of loving life, caring for others, and knowing, as our parents always reminded us, that with great privilege comes enormous responsibility.
01:14:36
Speaker
These last few days and in the coming speeches, we're all hearing a lot about who Honey and Berry were as a couple. We could talk for hours and days, and we can gather testimony into eternity, and we will still be scratching the surface of Honey and Berry. Like Yin and Yang, they completed a circle that encompassed everything important about what it means to be human.
01:14:59
Speaker
neither one perfect, but together wholly balanced and exceptional. One may have been soft, calm, brilliantly logical, staunchly atheist, and unconditionally loving and proud, while the other may have been firm, intensely energetic, brilliantly gregarious, silently spiritual, and unconditionally honest and caring, but together they were everything and perfect." End quote.
01:15:30
Speaker
He's such a good public speaker. I know. And you can feel the love, right, that he has for his parents. Yeah, and respect, yes. It was a legacy that Jonathan promised to continue as he closed his eulogy by saying, quote, we are taking some comfort and knowing that you two are together forever. And neither of you had to suffer like we are suffering now. You were like a lock and a key.
01:15:59
Speaker
each pretty useless on your own, but together you unlocked the whole world for yourselves and for us and for so many others. We promise to carry on your legacy of greatness and giving from now until forever." It actually took six weeks
01:16:21
Speaker
after the crime.
Police Confirm Double Homicide
01:16:23
Speaker
For police to fully admit in a press conference held on January 26, 2018, as son Jonathan and so many of their friends and families had urged all along, law enforcement finally said, quote, we believe we have sufficient evidence to describe this as a double homicide and that both were targeted, end quote.
01:16:54
Speaker
Now the investigation into the Sherman's death was about to take even more turns with more and more details of the crime and the timeline coming to light. Who might have had so much anger that they could target both Barry and Honey? Had they known their attacker or attackers? And why were their bodies staged?
01:17:15
Speaker
All that and more will be discussed in next week's episode. To close, I want to share the poem that was read to begin Barry and Honey Sherman's funeral, as I feel it reveals the duality of not only their image, but that of all of us. The poem is Each of Us Has a Name by the Ukrainian poet Zelda. Each of us has a name given by God and given by our parents.
01:17:43
Speaker
Each of us has a name given by our stature and our smile and given by what we wear. Each of us has a name given by the mountains and given by our walls. Each of us has a name given by the stars and given by our neighbors. Each of us has a name given by our sins and given by our longing.
01:18:11
Speaker
Each of us has a name given by our enemies and given by our love. Each of us has a name given by our celebrations and given by our work. Each of us has a name given by the seasons and given by our blindness. Each of us has a name given by the sea and given by our death.
01:18:40
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
01:19:10
Speaker
Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week. It's Love Notes with Maggie and Allison.
01:19:39
Speaker
We want to send lots of love to Amanda who wrote us a five-star review on Facebook. She wrote quote, Maggie and Allison are among my favorite podcasters of all time. I love the way they bring the stories to us and make us want to get involved to help families get closure. Thank you and keep up the great work and quote Amanda.
01:20:02
Speaker
We also want to send some love to Carolyn and to Kara for reaching out to us on social media this week. We loved hearing from you. And if you want to hear more from us, make sure you check out our Patreon, especially since these are literally the last few days to get in on the next round of swag boxes. Yeah, how exaggeration. Yes, literally days.
01:20:30
Speaker
So for each of you who joins our Patreon at the 12, 15, or $20 level from March through May, you will get a swag box in May. And even if you don't want to join at one of those levels, you just want to join at the $5 level, you get access to bonus content and our eternal love. So it's a win-win for everyone. It is.
01:20:56
Speaker
And with that, all of our love is going out to each and every one of you. Until next week, sleuthounds.