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French Revolution – The Fall of Robespierre– Colin Jones
213 Plays10 months ago
Ep 048 – Nonfiction. By July 1794, Robespierre was an outlaw, wanted for conspiracy against the French Republic. Historian Colin Jones chronicles Robespierre's finals hours & joins me to discuss his new book, "The Fall of Robespierre: 24 Hours in Revolutionary Paris."
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Transcript
France's War in 1792
00:00:00
Speaker
The thing which really changes him and gives him a totally new direction, which really was not foreseen in the earlier period, is France goes to war in 1792, goes to war with the rest of Europe, with first Austria, Hungary, then England, everyone else just about 1799-293, and the war goes badly, and the war goes badly
00:00:25
Speaker
For all sorts of reasons, France is in a mess, the army is in an absolute mess. Most of the officer corps have actually emigrated, they're nobles, they don't want to have anything to do with the revolution, they emigrate to Germany.
Introduction to War Books Podcast
00:00:47
Speaker
Hi, everyone. This is AJ Woodhams, host of the War Books Podcast, where I interview today's best authors writing about war-related topics. Today, I'm extremely excited to have on the show Colin Jones for his new book, The Fall of Robespierre, 24 Hours in Revolutionary Paris. Colin is emeritus professor of cultural history at Queen Mary University of London and visiting professor at the University of Chicago.
00:01:14
Speaker
He's published widely on French history, particularly the 18th century, the French Revolution in the History of Medicine. His many books include The Great Nation, France from Louis XV to Napoleon, Paris, Biography of a City, Versailles in the Fall of Robespierre, which we are talking about today. He
Revolutionary Calendar Explained
00:01:32
Speaker
is a fellow of the British Academy and past president of the Royal Historical Society. Colin, how are you doing today? I'm doing very well, thank you.
00:01:43
Speaker
interested to hear what the questions you have to ask me about the book. Absolutely. Well, very excited to have you on. So we're recording in 2023, but this will actually be the first episode of 2024 that comes out in January. Now, if we were talking the revolutionary calendar, it's not January. What month is January on the revolutionary calendar? Well, the months actually start
00:02:11
Speaker
because the calendar itself was set up in 1793, but it was made to originate on the day that the French National Assembly declared itself France to be a republic, and that was the 21st of September 1792. The king had been overthrown, King Louis XVI had been overthrown in August.
00:02:38
Speaker
And so the months actually started on the 21st. So the calendar that they introduced gave a sort of meteorological climatic feel to each of the months. And so the middle of, well, December, like seasons, which attaches to the word nej, which is snow. So it's the sort of snowy month. And the
00:03:04
Speaker
On the other extreme, the middle of summer, which is the day on which Robespierre was overthrown, was the 9th of Thermidor. And Thermidor, obviously, it's the hottest month of the year. So it has been pointed out that this allegedly universal new calendar for the human humanity only really operated properly in the northern hemisphere, because of course all those weather
00:03:28
Speaker
would be wrong for the Southern, but this is the way the revolutionaries tried to think about the revolution that they were undertaking. They saw it really as an epochal event in the history of humanity. Yeah, well, we will dive into that. What did you say the month of January was? You said it's- Nivos, NIVMSA. All right, so this is going to be coming out of Nivos. Before we actually
00:03:55
Speaker
start talking about your book, I have to ask you, because I have a historian, a French history on the show right now, talking about the revolutionary era. Did
Skepticism About Historical Films
00:04:06
Speaker
you see the Napoleon movie? I haven't yet. I'm really looking forward to seeing it. A very good friend of mine, a very distinguished historian of the French Revolution, he said to me,
00:04:21
Speaker
In other words, it's magnificent, but it is not history. So I think I'm going to be, I am always a bit of a skeptic about historical films. And I think it's a sort of professional deformation that you can't watch a history film without sort of seeing things that are anachronistic or you think are wrong or whatever. But I mean, I have heard very positive things about it. So I'm looking forward to it.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I thought, I mean, as far as like being like an action-filled movie, I thought it was very, very, very interesting. Not to spoil too much for you, but the scene where Robespierre shoots himself is dramatized in the movie. So if any viewers or listeners out there have seen the movie, that's what we're talking about here today. Well, let's start off in talking about your book. One of the questions that I like
00:05:16
Speaker
authors to answer first when they come on my show, as if in your own words. Can you tell me what is your book about? Yes.
The Fall of Robespierre Book Overview
00:05:23
Speaker
Well, it's about a day and it's a very particular way of writing the history of the day, if we'll talk about it. But it was a key day, a crucial day in the history of the revolution. And so often historians write about the revolution
00:05:40
Speaker
in terms of these really major turning points. And there's like three or four of them really, which usually are the pivots around which the story is told. And the first of those is obviously the 14th of July 1789. It's still commemorated as the French National Day. And that was the day that the Bastille was overthrown and the monarchy accepted that it had to have a constitution and there would be a constitutional monarchy.
00:06:07
Speaker
The next day is the 10th of August 1792, and that is the day on which the monarchy was overthrown, so everything changed as a result of that. And then the final, if I skip over my one, if you like, would be the 18th of Brumaire in year 8, which is in fact 1799, and that's the day in which Napoleon,
00:06:32
Speaker
performed his famous coup d'etat throughout the directory form of government and instituted the consulate, which then became the empire and all the rest of it. But after those three dates, the fourth, just as important, in some ways, definitely equally important.
Robespierre's Overthrow and Reign of Terror Ends
00:06:49
Speaker
is the 9th of Thermidor Year 2, which is the 27th of July 1794. And that was the day that Robespierre was overthrown. Robespierre was an absolutely crucial figure in the
00:07:03
Speaker
period prior to that, which is often called the terror, and the 9th of Thermador begins a movement away from the terror and away from the more radical policies and extreme policies associated with the revolution in 1793-4. So it's one of the turning points, and therefore, you know, when I was looking around for a subject, I wanted to work on the revolution a few years ago. I had a sort of interest in doing that.
00:07:30
Speaker
I thought, well, this is a really important day. People know of it. They know, certainly everyone who knows anything about the revolution knows about...
00:07:42
Speaker
So I'll work on that. And this is one of the things that attracted me, and I'll give you a brief indication of what the book is about, is that basically it's the day on which most of Paris gets together and overthrows one of the principal figures in the revolutionary government, which was ruling France and
00:08:07
Speaker
conducting, managing the terror throughout France. And it's a very traumatic day, which I can break down in any way you want in a minute. But basically, it starts with Robespierre being shouted down in the National Assembly and arrested.
00:08:26
Speaker
But then he's sent out to a prison, and while he's sent out to a prison, the Paris municipality, the commune, the city hall, tries to organise an insurrection against the National Assembly. It's helped by the fact that Roger actually escaped or isn't allowed into the prison.
00:08:46
Speaker
And so you have this very dramatic evening of 27th of July 1794, where the National Assembly and the forces, the armed forces that it can bring together, is in a face-off with the city hall, about two kilometers, mile and a half down the road towards the east of Paris. And the revolution and the fate of the revolution is counting absolutely on what happens from that conflict.
00:09:15
Speaker
In the end, I mean, we all know it goes the way of the National Convention, Robespierre and his supporters in the City Hall are arrested. Many of the lead Robespierre, his supporters in the National Assembly, a small group, and about 100 people within the City Hall's management are executed on the following day.
00:09:38
Speaker
Well,
Research on Robespierre's Fall
00:09:38
Speaker
first, let me just say I'm impressed that, so your book is just about 24 hours and it's about 600 pages. And I'm impressed that you've been able to, did you think, were you wondering, am I going to have enough material to, to fill this up or was there just so much going on that you're like, I could, I could double this, this size.
00:09:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting you say that because there aren't many days in history in which you could write a history quite like this which was so focused and I think it is certainly for the 18th century.
00:10:12
Speaker
And arguably, more than that, it's one of the best documented days in certainly in the revolution, certainly in the 18th century, and possibly more white wifey than that. And that is because it was seen as an absolutely crucial day. I mean, it's a bit like, you know, it's a sort of light bulb day, like the assassination of JFK or the death of Elvis. People always think what I was doing on that particular day. Many people write memoirs.
00:10:41
Speaker
But also, there was an official inquiry into what went on, and this is a bit like the Warren Commission after the Kennedy assassination, which is very, very detailed. And then also, because it was such an important day in terms of what people felt and what they did on the day, whether they had supported Roebuck there or not,
00:10:59
Speaker
It was many people over the next year or so would be arrested, thrown into prison and made to say what they had done and what they had been up to on that particular day. So we have this extraordinarily dense
00:11:13
Speaker
documentation at a very, very granular level. I thought I'd go into the history of the day. I didn't really realize the extent to which one could get this incredibly granular material on what just private individuals who are caught up in the action, obviously the actors themselves, the main protagonists as well, but just normal people in the streets, in the bars.
00:11:37
Speaker
in the gardens, et cetera, get caught up in this and get very precise and detailed accounts of what they did and what happened and what they saw and what they heard.
00:11:51
Speaker
hundreds and hundreds, literally hundreds, probably a thousand or more, micro-narratives of part of the day, which some of them are giving a lot of detail over a long period, some of them just a particular episode. And so my job as a historian of the day was to try and do justice to the density of that material.
00:12:10
Speaker
and give a sense of what the revolution felt like for those who were engaged in it on this particular day, and it was a very big day in which a lot of people were involved, but also people who witnessed it in some way as well. Well, before we get to the 9th of Thermidor, which is the 27th of July 1794, I want to talk a little bit about Robespierre the person.
00:12:38
Speaker
What kind of person was Robespierre? What was his background? What
Robespierre's Rise and Revolutionary Influence
00:12:42
Speaker
was he doing right before? I think he write he was just kind of an obscure lawyer right before the revolution. What's kind of his story?
00:12:50
Speaker
Well, you know, a French historian, a historian of ideas, Marcel Gautier, recently wrote a biography of Rosby, an intellectual biography, and he called it, the man who divides us most. And I think that says something rather important about Rosby. He's the sort of person, he would say in England, we have this expression, he's a Marmite candidate. Marmite is something you spread on bread. Some people absolutely love it.
00:13:16
Speaker
the rest of the population absolutely hate it. He sort of divides people enormously. So asking what he's like, it's quite difficult, but there's the two versions of it really. But the sort of bad picture, the sort of black legend of Robespierre is that he is a proto totalitarian dictator. He's the sort of Mussolini, Hitler, whoever of the late 18th century who's dictating the revolution where everyone is.
00:13:45
Speaker
frightened of and who is running a reign of terror, who sort of sorted out the guillotine, who's just trying to destroy anyone who's getting in his way and is trying to establish a dictatorship or virtue, but he talks a lot about republican virtue. That is a caricature which was really generated particularly after he fell, when people
00:14:10
Speaker
people have exaggerated many of his qualities. So we need to, it's difficult to get to him without getting through the sort of incredible amount of bad propaganda, the bad press that he's had. But if one tries to do that, let me give you a few indications. One of them is that if there hadn't been a revolution, we would never have heard of Maximilian Robert Speer.
00:14:31
Speaker
A few obscure historians of the 18th century such as myself might have heard about this minor provincial lawyer who seems to have been a bit of an intellectual and was keen to write some reforming and lightened prose about justice and all the rest of it. He was working in a minor provincial town, the city of Arras in Piccadilly,
00:14:53
Speaker
and he'd been educated in Paris. But in 1789, he's elected to the Estates General, which becomes the National Assembly, essentially, as the revolution goes on, and which really reforms and revolutionizes French government in every way.
00:15:14
Speaker
He's elected to that and in that assembly he becomes known as a defender of the people. He's always supporting the popular cause. Honestly, you know, sometimes people said that, I know about Elvis Presley, they say, you know, that his death was a good career move.
00:15:32
Speaker
In fact, I think if he had died in 1792, 1791 or 92, people would say, oh, he was the future of the revolution. It's a great tragedy. He was a radical man. He seemed to support the good causes. He totally believed in all the freedoms of the individual, right to speak, religious freedom.
00:15:53
Speaker
no imprisonment without trial. He was even against capital punishment. He was one of the few in the assembly who spoke very passionately about the importance of abolishing capital punishment. So interesting. In terms of what came next. He was something I say to colleagues in England, or friends in England, I say he was the sort of person who was a guardian reader, all those sort of like left liberal, wishy-washy sort of qualities we all believe in now.
00:16:23
Speaker
But in 1791-92, he moves out of the assembly. They have a newer assembly. He then goes back into it in 1792.
00:16:34
Speaker
The thing which really changes him and gives him a totally new direction, which really was not foreseen in the earlier period, is France goes to war. In 1792, it goes to war with the rest of Europe, with first Austria, Hungary, then England, everyone else just about. In 1792 and 1993. And the war goes badly. And the war goes badly.
00:16:58
Speaker
For all sorts of reasons, France is in a mess, the army is in an absolute mess. Most of the officer corps have actually emigrated, they're nobles, they don't want to have anything to do with the revolution, they emigrate to Germany. They're led by the Princess of the Blood, the King's brothers, who start forming an army on the frontiers of France in Germany.
00:17:19
Speaker
and they cooperating with the allied armies of Austria and Prussia in particular. That is a fantastic pressure on France and particularly as the king and the church in particular as well which Catholic Church which has been reformed but this has produced a division within the church.
00:17:41
Speaker
There's a sort of civil war going on as well in 1792, 1793, and Robespierre has the perspicacity, perhaps other people would have seen this as well and grasped this, they probably would, but his view is that the only way that France is going to survive and not be picked off by those powers and partitioned and, you know, reduced to the
00:18:06
Speaker
shadow of its former self would be by what he says is to rally the people. So in other words, what he tries to do is to introduce social reforms, radical social reforms, which will give people the incentive to fight for the revolution, to volunteer
00:18:25
Speaker
for the army and so on. And this is not necessarily popular throughout the political class, political elite in 1793-14. And indeed, it's only imposed as he, as Rodbian, a group of individuals within the National Assembly, develop their policies and actually exclude from the National Assembly and also
00:18:52
Speaker
within Paris as well, critics of the government. So there's a very strong authoritarian but also socially radical set of policies which he brings in. Afterwards, they don't use this expression much at the time, actually. People say this is the terror with a capital T. People talk about terror, which is what they're trying to do, to have a very authoritarian government where people are
00:19:16
Speaker
frightened, if you like, of opposing the government, but also they want policies that will incentivise people to fight for the revolution. And indeed it is successful. The armies of France in 1793 too are in an absolute mess.
00:19:34
Speaker
You know, they go into retreat. France is nearly overrun on a number of occasions, 1792-93. But by giving this sort of incentive to people to join up and to fight for the revolution, they're able to put in the field a very, very large army. You know, probably we're talking about well over a million adult males at this time.
00:19:58
Speaker
14 armies scattered on all the frontiers of France, fighting on absolutely every frontier. And indeed, they do succeed. And they also bring the civil war, particularly in the west of France, under control. And then they basically force out the Allied troops who were on French territory in 1793 and particularly 1794. And just before the, and I think it's an important element in understanding the day of 27th of July 9th of Thermador,
00:20:28
Speaker
In June, late June, the Battle of Fleurus on the northern frontier is a very, very successful victory which really means France does not have a threat of invasion anymore and indeed Belgium and indeed the Netherlands are opening themselves up to
00:20:48
Speaker
to it in Asia. So I think those sort of background factors are very important. And Robert, you know, in some ways, you know, all his career before he joins the government in 1793 has been the sort of popular supporter, supporter of the people and whistleblower against power. He's then brought into power. But he isn't, you know, as people say, he isn't really a dictator in the sort of 21st century sense.
00:21:17
Speaker
This government policy is being directed by a group of 12 men who are elected by the National Assembly, the so-called Committee of Public Safety. And he is one of 12 who's doing the stuff. He's not even premised into parées in some ways, not outstanding in any ways. He says himself, I'm one-twelfth of the authority of the government.
00:21:41
Speaker
What he is, however, and this is the important part of his character, is he is the ideologies of revolutionary government. He's the man who does the big speeches in the National Assembly, in the Jack of Inclad, he's then diffused within France, and they give a sort of sense of what the revolution is fighting for. And it's complicated. They see him as someone who's, he's called the incorruptible, the incorruptible,
00:22:06
Speaker
the virtuous guy who actually will get people out on the battle lines, if you like, and the barricades, if necessary, to fight for the revolution. Now, was that true, that he was incorruptible? Is there any historical evidence that he was incorruptible? We have no real evidence that he was corrupt in a particular way. Whereas a lot of the other revolutionaries, they see the material benefits of
00:22:34
Speaker
of the revolution and benefit from it. Famously, one of his big rivals in government in 1793 and who actually he helped send to the guillotine, Danton. Danton is extremely corrupt. Danton is the sort of guy who likes the revolution for all the right radical reasons, but actually doesn't mind lining his pockets along the way.
00:22:58
Speaker
Robespierre's always been the person who stands above that. And he presents himself in a way which, again, divides people. Some people think he's an incredible hypocrite, but he's very austere, he's very pure, he's very puritanical in many ways. He doesn't drink much, he doesn't eat much even. He always seems to be someone who's totally dedicated to the revolution. And indeed, and it's a sort of aspect of his character, which I think you could see as
00:23:28
Speaker
both fault and also virtue, he identifies with the revolution and identifies with the people of France in a very, very striking way. He once at one stage says, he says in French, I am the people, I am of the people if you like, I'm one of the people if you like.
00:23:48
Speaker
And that type of identification, which, funnily enough, becomes a bit of a thing in French history. When you think of Napoleon, you think of Charles de Gaulle, etc., etc., a sort of providential leader, if you like, but someone who has these qualities of
00:24:06
Speaker
devotion, dedication to the popular cause of the revolution, which are very, very striking. So when would you say Robespierre was...
Robespierre's Peak and Downfall Begins
00:24:15
Speaker
Two questions. One, when would you say Robespierre was at the height of his power? And the second question is,
00:24:24
Speaker
the day right before the 7th of Thermidor, so I guess 6th of Thermidor, July 26th, if I was sitting down and I was, let's say I was having coffee with Robespierre, what would I come away with from that conversation?
00:24:39
Speaker
There are two questions that go together rather well, actually, because I would say that Robespierre was at the height of his power. He's at the most respected. He's seen as a key figure in the way in which the government is working, and he's seen as someone who's bringing the revolution's success, probably about two or three months before this
00:25:03
Speaker
In March and April, he personally sort of supervises, first of all, a purge of the government, of Dantin, his rival, and some of the people who are associated with him, who have been calling for a moderation of the terror. At the other extreme, he actually
00:25:24
Speaker
eradicates from political life, many go to the guillotine, people on the sort of far left who he sees as again threatening the revolution. And he thinks that he's getting, he's called the war against faction. He thinks he gets rid of these factions, everything will be above board and there will be no problem. But he soon realizes in fact that in some ways he's made matters worse, that there's more faction and there's more resentment against them by people on both the left and right because they feel that he's gone too far in
00:25:54
Speaker
in attacking fellow revolutionaries. And then he realises that something is going wrong. And about six weeks before the 9th of Thermador, he stops going to the Committee of Public Safety. They're conducting, they're running a war. It's an incredibly active sort of set of people running this incredible war against the rest of
00:26:22
Speaker
Europe. He stops going there. He stops going to the national convention. So he just doesn't show up. He doesn't make any speech. And people are puzzled about this, obviously. But he does go to the Jacobin Club. And the Jacobin Club is a sort of political association, a political club, which is seen as the most important one in the whole of the revolution. It has a network of clubs, Jacobin Clubs throughout France. But the Parisian one, obviously, is the really important one.
00:26:49
Speaker
politicians are there, but also normal Parisians as well. So he goes to the Jacqueline Cup very regularly still, and he makes speeches which are very, very critical about the government, which he formally is still part. He's sort of attacking the government. He's sort of casting aspersions against his colleagues within the National Assembly. And this really, I think this is where his power is
00:27:18
Speaker
the power and respect which he's commanded, I think, to a very considerable extent in France up to then, really starts frittering away because people don't know what he's after. They don't quite see where he's going. Does he want another purge? Does he want to get rid of even his colleagues? Is he actually aiming for a personal dictatorship on the lines of, well, probably people aren't thinking of obviously Hitler. They're thinking of Julius Caesar or Augustus Caesar because they're always very
00:27:46
Speaker
focused on what happened in antiquity. So this sort of puzzlement, I think, is a period of puzzlement about what Rob's Bear is up to, which has been going on for a month or six weeks or so.
00:28:02
Speaker
If we then fast forward to the previous day, the previous day is absolutely crucial in understanding what happened on the 27th, because what happens on that day after this period of absence,
00:28:18
Speaker
Robespierre actually turns up at the convention and launches into an incredibly long speech, rambling speech, which is very, very sort of inward looking. It's very narcissistic. It's very bitter. It's very repeating the Robespierre themes of the importance of incorruptibility, the importance of the people, et cetera, et cetera. But it's seen as a very threatening letter
00:28:46
Speaker
to many people sitting around the convention hall and in the government, around the table, in the offices of the Committee of Public Safety. In fact, it is so vehement, but also so vague,
00:29:03
Speaker
that many, just about anyone in political life who feels that Roger Beer has looked as scant at them at any time over the previous couple of, well, previous year or so, feels them, you know, they're reaching for their colours actually, they're feeling pretty uncomfortable, they're thinking that he's actually going to launch some sort of attack on them the next day.
00:29:26
Speaker
We can talk a bit more about what he was intending to do. But the crucial thing is that his action on that day really gets together almost for the first time an organised opposition against him.
00:29:42
Speaker
If he repeats that speech in the Jacobin Club in the evening, he actually personally attacks in his speech. One or two of his colleagues are actually present in the Jacobin Club. So people realize there's a massive collision coming at some stage in the revolution.
00:29:58
Speaker
But one of the things that's really struck me in doing the research, and again it runs against what a lot of people have thought about the 9th of Thermador, is really people were not anticipating it. They knew there was a crisis in government. They were very puzzled about Bob's fear. But even people, his colleagues in the Committee of Public Safety, are very nervous about attacking them because he is so popular.
00:30:23
Speaker
You know, they see Rob Speer as a, you know, there's a recent history historian, Antoine Litte in France, who's written a fascinating book on celebrity, the emergence of pop, you know, the ideas of celebrity that we have today. He's not just famous, he's a celebrity. People are, you know,
00:30:42
Speaker
adulating him, if you like, or hating him, of course, as one does with celebrities. His colleagues think, well, he is so popular that if we attract him in any way, he has so much support in the convention seemingly, he doesn't actually, but people think he does, so much in the city hall, so much in the local administration in Paris, that they would risk their own lives in that way.
00:31:09
Speaker
So people have been holding back and just hoping they can negotiate with Rob Speer. And then on the 8th, he makes this sort of very wild speech in many ways. People think we've got to act. And overnight, there's a mobilization, if you like. First of all, some of the people who feel most threatened by
00:31:29
Speaker
It's not going around to the private homes of many of the moderate deputies and saying, look, we've got to get rid of Roger. He's out of control. He's a loose cannon. You think he's going to hit me tomorrow.
00:31:45
Speaker
It'll be you the next day. And there's a sort of alliance of the very, very frightened, which gets together very swiftly over that night. And within the Committee of Public Safety, even though when you look at what they actually do, it shows that they're still very, very nervous about belling the cat, you know, putting the bell around the cat, if you like, because they're all fearful for their life. So the eighth of them really does set up
00:32:14
Speaker
the 9th of Thermador, but it doesn't make its outcome clear. In fact, I say this in the book, in some ways, if one were a betting man or woman on the 8th of Thermador, or even on the morning of 9th of Thermador, you said, well, it's going to all come down to today, which ways are it going to go? You would probably think, well, Rob's there would prevail.
00:32:35
Speaker
You think why he's got a lot of enemies now after yesterday but she's got a lot of support in the national convention he the mayor of paris the head of the city hall is his nominee the national guard very very important and we'll talk about that in a minute.
00:32:51
Speaker
in a minute. The commander there is his personal nominee. He's got a lot of support within the convention, and he's got a lot of celebrity. So you think he's the guy who's going to prevail rather than the convention, and it happens completely differently from what one might have predicted. Yeah. Well, let's get to the day. Let's talk about... So your book actually starts at midnight, and you go hour by hour
Robespierre's Arrest and Capture
00:33:18
Speaker
First, how does this day start for Robespierre at midnight? And then what are some of the more dramatic turns that this day takes? Yeah, so I did make this decision after quite some time. I thought I'd write a history of the day, but the decision to write it in this unusual way, whereas you say I start at midnight and finish more or less about midnight and have a bit of a
00:33:42
Speaker
bit of a chapter or so afterwards just describing what happened next because I think with a lot of histories of
00:33:49
Speaker
a short period of time. There is a tendency to produce a long sort of, you know, the context that causes the preconditions, and then you're looking at the aftermath and the consequences. And as a result, the history of the day, first of all, it gets squashed between these two things. But also, it all looks predetermined, because you've sort of explained what's going to happen, even though
00:34:15
Speaker
the way in which you've explained it is determined by what actually happened on the day. So my idea was that basically to give this sort of sense of indetermination, of uncertainty about the issue of what would happen in the day, I should try and put it down at the level of the people of Paris, if you like, what they were going through from midnight through to the end of the action.
00:34:43
Speaker
In some ways, the outcome was determined by what happened actually on the day, which was a bit uncertain. You couldn't have predicted it really to start with. So I give that sort of sense by going from midnight onwards. And I try and give a sort of sense of the way in which and the turning points within the day where things could have gone differently.
00:35:04
Speaker
So I start with midnight where the Committee of Public Safety is still in session. They often work through the night. No rubs here, but they know they're trying to work out what to happen on the next day. At the same time, you've got these...
00:35:18
Speaker
deputies who feel very frightened for their lives going around trying to mobilize among the normal deputies of the assembly. But at the same time, I try and give a sense of the sleeping city. You know, the city is asleep. The marketplace people start turning up from 3am or something like that. But, you know, it is a city which is not anticipating.
00:35:41
Speaker
a dramatic day the following day. Most of them know there's probably some stuff going on in the government, you know, that there's been stuff before. Why should the next day be very different? And the people of Paris remain in that sort of state really until the afternoon. But what happens by the morning is that the person who
00:36:05
Speaker
has been most prominent in going around and mobilizing support within Paris, among the debtors. There's a man called Talia. Talia is someone who Robespierre seems to hate for reasons which have to do with his politics, but also his private life as well. Talia's mistress is imprisoned more or less under Robespierre's orders about a month or so before the revolution. She's probably going to go to the revolutionary tribunal.
00:36:32
Speaker
There is this story which I tell in the book that the previous day she writes from prison that she's been told she's going to go to the revolutionary tribunal. She says, I had a dream last night in which I was free and that Robert Bear was overthrown.
00:36:49
Speaker
Of course, that's never going to happen because I don't have a lover who would stop it. Well, actually, she does have a lover who would stop it because he is an absolutely key figure and he's not in touch with the government, with the Committee of Public Safety. He's just got enough support, he thinks, within the Convention to make a difference. He marches into the Assembly, stops the business of the affair and attacks Rob Speer, attacks his ally, Sajous,
00:37:17
Speaker
tax that faction within government. And what happens is very extraordinary, actually, because at first you see people realizing, wow, something's going on here, but they don't seem to know what it is. They're sort of puzzled. But Tanya has got some of his supporters from the previous night.
00:37:35
Speaker
to make, to agree that whenever he says something, they collapse, and they all start clapping furiously. And then you've got this sort of contagion within the assembly where everyone realizes, yeah, Rubsley is being attacked, and actually, we have got fed up with him, and he was going too far, and he does seem to have been aiming at dictatorship. And so over that late part of the morning into the early afternoon,
00:37:56
Speaker
afternoon, they basically launch an attack on Rhodes beer in the assembly. He's arrested. He and about four or five of his allies within the assembly, including his brother, are arrested. And they send them out about four o'clock in the afternoon to prisons throughout Paris. They don't want to keep them together because they send them to separate prisons.
00:38:16
Speaker
Now, at that stage, the government and the National Assembly think, well, that's it. Job done. We'll go out and have dinner now. We've been holding on to our stomachs for an hour or two. Let's go and have a really good meal. And they do.
00:38:32
Speaker
The Committee of Public Safety is still turning business over, but no one realises, really, that down the road, as I said, about a mile and a half to the east in the city hall, the news of Robespierre's arrest has come in, and the mayor, the commander of the National Guard, and a couple of other key individuals
00:38:49
Speaker
realize that they have got to stop the National Convention and what they try and do is to mobilize support by writing out and by trying to mobilize by just going out in the streets people to come to the city hall with the idea of a major sort of insurrectionary force to be gathered there to move through the streets of Paris on the National Convention.
00:39:14
Speaker
Now, about seven o'clock in the evening, the National Assembly goes back into session. In fact, at first, there's very few people there because most people think it's just going to be routine business.
00:39:27
Speaker
uh... they very surprised to hear what's going on we have an account one that he was actually having one of his having his dinner uh... over and uh... the other side of the river uh... in the uh... some what's now the seven tharondi small in a fact find restaurant that and he said sort of talking and that he suddenly has someone going through the streets and romspers being arrested everyone come to the city hall units they suddenly realize things have got out of hand he goes back
00:39:52
Speaker
Basically, the National Assembly starts forming in that evening and trying to sort of find out what is going on. In Paris, they realize the insurrection is going on, but they just don't know what's really happening out on the streets. So you've got this very strange period going on where the city hall is mobilizing and for an hour or two, an hour or two,
00:40:18
Speaker
this convention does not know what the heck is going on. And indeed, what happens between 8 and 9 o'clock, one of the leaders out of the commune, out of the city hall, takes a big force of men, about 2,000 men, national councilmen, and they walk to the national convention, and they want to actually, they've heard Robert Rees arrested, and they want actually to
00:40:40
Speaker
to free him. Actually, Rob's bear by then has been sent out, so they don't do that. But they are honestly within a hair breadth of winning the day because the National Assembly, the convention is completely undefended.
00:40:55
Speaker
For reasons which historians still dispute, the commander of the National Guard says, okay, we're not going to do this. We're going to go back in an orderly way to the city hall and we're going to sort out the proper strategy on what to do.
00:41:11
Speaker
And at that moment, well, they realize how incredibly lucky they've been. The man sitting in the chair presiding over the assembly says to his colleagues, he says, we've got to die like Romans now. You know, we're going to be massacred. But suddenly they hear the forces going away and they're not. Basically what they do is they order the arrest of all these leaders within the municipality.
00:41:36
Speaker
and the arrest of Rob's beer. And surely, afterwards, they declare that they are outlaws. If they're outlaws, that means they don't need trial, they will just be placed under arrest and can be executed. They've got to get hold of these people. So in a way, they realize they're in a bad state, and they've also realized they're in a particularly bad state because
00:41:56
Speaker
News is coming in that far from being in prison, Rob Speer has been turned away from the prison to which he's been sent and is actually will be making his way gradually. We'll get there by 10 o'clock to the city hall. So you've got this very forcible sort of situation and it's again one of the key moments and it's about 9 o'clock at night is that in the convention they realize that they're in this terrible, terrible situation.
00:42:22
Speaker
And they realize that the commander of the National Guard is on the other side. And they make a decision which is completely unpredictable. At no time in the revolution has any National Assembly done this. They basically appoint one of their members, a guy called d'Arras, to be the commander of all the armed forces in Paris.
00:42:45
Speaker
They give him 12 adjuncts and they say, organize. Basically what he does, he and his adjuncts go out, get on their horses essentially, go through the streets of Paris where already the city hall has been trying to mobilize people and say,
00:43:03
Speaker
Get their narrative across. Robespierre is an outlaw. He's been conspiring against the National Assembly. He wants to be a dictator. You've got to support the rule of law. You've got to support the revolution. If you don't, everything that you fought for will be lost.
00:43:18
Speaker
Basically overnight you've got this extraordinary situation where normal Parisians are in the streets or in their local sectional assembly or whatever, trying to work out what's going on, realizing they've got to make a really important decision on which the fate of the revolution might depend.
00:43:37
Speaker
and their own fate as well, because if Rob Beer wins, anyone who opposed him the previous day will be up for the, not the chop, but at least for imprisonment, and the other way as well. So what I try to do in my book is to give a sense of that sort of existential choice that people have, an incredibly important political choice that people have to make at that moment, one way or the other, and to understand why.
00:44:01
Speaker
And to understand why you basically find people sticking up for the rule of law, for the national convention, all the revolution has done so far, for the fact that the revolution seems to be winning the war.
00:44:13
Speaker
and they reject Rob Speer, who despite everything that he's been very strong in, has hustled people and seems to be acting in a very irrational way. And by just after midnight, actually, the forces of the convention, and we'll talk a bit about the forces maybe next, but
00:44:37
Speaker
are surrounding the city hall, they move in on the city hall, they go up to collect Robespierre in one of the rooms there. For things we still don't know actually what happens exactly, but Robespierre is shot possibly by himself, possibly by someone else, but he's not shot and killed, he's shot in the jaw, which means that this man who's been the ideologist, the great speaker of the French revolutionary assembles his silence for the rest of his life,
00:45:04
Speaker
And the next day, he's identified by the authorities, by the Revolution Tribunal. He's taken out and executed. Wow. Well, first, thank you for that. A couple things come to my mind. First, in the Napoleon movie, they took the liberty of deciding he shot himself.
00:45:30
Speaker
So that's what people will see. But second, what I think is so fascinating about this, I mean, there's so much to say about all the events that unfolded, but the people themselves who, as you said, Robespierre is a very popular figure, super popular. And for people to turn on him personally,
00:45:56
Speaker
but to not turn on some of these other principles, I found fascinating. Why do you think most people chose to stay true to the principles of the revolution as opposed to the man, Robespierre? Well, I think the thing to
00:46:14
Speaker
bear in mind on this is that, and we haven't talked about it much, but especially for war books seminar we should do, because this is a day which is, you know, there's fighting
Role of National Guard and Revolutionary Principles
00:46:29
Speaker
but no deaths. There's hardly anyone apart from the people who actually go to the
00:46:35
Speaker
to the guillotine the next day. It isn't a bloody day like 14th of July or 1789 or whatever. There's basically a sort of potential for incredible violence, an explosion of violence, but it's not quite triggered off, if you like.
00:46:53
Speaker
But the other thing is it's a day which is done without any military intervention. Because all the armies are, you know, day, day and a half, two days, more than that, away from the front. Because the army has got to be fighting the rest of Europe, they don't have a sort of military force within Paris.
00:47:14
Speaker
And in fact, Paris is defended by its own people, by the National Guard. So the National Guard was introduced, in fact, in 1789. Initially, it was only sort of proppered individuals, people of substance who were allowed to be members of the National Guard.
00:47:32
Speaker
But as the revolution radicalizes in 1792, basically every adult male has a duty to be part of the National Guard. You can get exemption under certain circumstances, et cetera, et cetera. But basically, if you're an adult male, you are a member of the National Guard. And you have to do Guard duty a few times every month for big occasions. You'll be called in as well. And essentially, what
00:48:01
Speaker
what is going on in this sort of face-off between the convention and the city hall is the attempt to get hold of the people of Paris through the National Guard. They also write to the local administrative sectional sort of like parish assemblers if you like trying to get them mobilized but actually getting the
00:48:22
Speaker
the National Guardsmen, the commanders of the National Guard, in each of the 48 sections within Paris on the side. Each of them will have a large number of companies, some of which will be on active duty on that day, but all of which, if the toxin and the drum is sounded, have to turn up and so be prepared for action. They try to get them sort of mobilized.
00:48:48
Speaker
So they're the key really and I think the National Guard is something which historians have always tended to neglect in looking at the day because it is essentially the people of Paris through the National Guard who win the day.
00:49:04
Speaker
And they essentially follow the orders. They've been trained to be great supporters of the revolution. They believe in the right to insurrection, and it's there in the Constitution when the government's going badly. But they don't really think that time has come in some way.
00:49:26
Speaker
a loyalist, if you like, movement within the National Guard, which actually makes the day they prevail. Well, first, Collins has been a wonderful interview. My kind of last question here for you is, I'm curious what you think after all the research you've done and obviously spending a great deal of time in these 24 hours.
Lessons from Robespierre's Downfall
00:49:51
Speaker
I'm curious what your thoughts are on how the events that unfolded in this day, what lessons we have to learn in our present day about how all this went down and how it works for years. Downfall came so swiftly. I think we're fine as historians when we're writing about history. We're less good about bringing it up to date or making it real or relevant, if you like, for the present.
00:50:18
Speaker
I mean, a number of people, when I've spoken about this, this was not something which even occurred to me when I was doing the reset, because it happened before it. But the events of 6th of January in the United States were brought to my attention on a number of occasions, because people argued that essentially you've got someone in power in a position of authority, leader of the executive, obviously, in the United States.
00:50:43
Speaker
claiming to represent through his supporters the people acting against the existing legislature.
00:50:52
Speaker
So, you know, I don't really want to get into that. I don't, you know, comparison between Donald Trump and Ross, but I don't think I get very far quite honestly. But I think, you know, that there are other striking moments as well. But I think in terms of writing contemporary history, writing about events of the recent past, it is helpful to have this, I think, the type of approach which I've
00:51:15
Speaker
I've tried out to get in, if you like, and not to see everything in terms of structural long-term effects, playing themselves out, if you like, but to see the element of contingency, of chance, of just anything happening, of serendipity in some ways operating in politics, and in a way, if there's a moral problem, to be always prepared for that.
00:51:43
Speaker
Colin, if people want to stay in touch with your work, are you on social media? How
Colin Jones's Ongoing Projects
00:51:48
Speaker
can people stay in touch with what you're writing about and what you're doing? Well, I hope they would. I'm actually, I've just completed a book actually, which is on, it's the addition of a correspondence which a very aged and very counter-revolutionary duchess wrote about the French Revolution from the middle of Paris, moreover, for the most part in the early part of the 1790s.
00:52:10
Speaker
And I'm just in the process of writing a short history of France, a little condensed history of France from earlier times. If you go on the website at Queen Mary University of London, you'll see what I'm up to, to a large part. Yeah, that's great. Well, a prolific writer. You've got two more books after this latest one already in the pipeline. Yeah, thank you. Well, Colin Jones, The Fall of Robespierre, 24 Hours in Revolutionary Paris,
00:52:41
Speaker
Go buy a copy. Go check it out from your library. What an interesting tale that you've told here, Colin. And thank you so much for your time today. Thank you. Thanks, Richard. Thank you.