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Napoleonic Wars – Fighting Russia, a POW’s memoir – Samuel de Korte
195 Plays1 year ago
Ep 038 – Nonfiction. In 1812 the French emperor Napoleon invaded Russia. For this purpose, he gathered an army of half a million, including C.J. Wagevier, a Dutch officer who was captured and spent nearly 2 years in Russian captivity. Samuel de Korte joins me to discuss his translation of C.J.’s memoir of that time, “Fighting for Napoleon's Army in Russia: A POW's Memoir.”
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Transcript
Alternate Histories: France's Impact
00:00:00
Speaker
But of course, like everything is written and published after the fighting is over. Imagine if, okay, so say France had won and indeed the Netherlands stayed occupied. I wonder if it would have been the same. Did he still think the same or would he have said like, no, no, I'm French. But of course, this is this whole other topic.
00:00:28
Speaker
He is a career officer. Uh, and I think in a way it's like, okay, he doesn't, he doesn't know any better.
Introduction to War Books Podcast and Guest
00:00:43
Speaker
Hi everyone. This is AJ Woodham's host of the war books podcast, where I interview today's best authors writing about war related topics. Uh, today I'm really excited to interview Samuel DeCorta.
00:00:58
Speaker
for the translation that he recently published of Fighting for Napoleon's Army in Russia, a P.O.W.'s memoir. Samuel de Corte is a graduate of Utrecht University, where he studied the cultural history of modern Europe. He writes about popular history, specializing in the history of African-American soldiers during the Second World War, that's really cool, and Dutch involvement in the Napoleonic Wars, which we're talking about here today. Samuel, how are you doing?
00:01:29
Speaker
Hello AJ, I'm happy to be on the show and I'm doing farewell. Thank you. Great. Well, the pleasure is all mine. This is a lot of firsts for this show actually today. This is the first translation of something that we've had on the show. Normally it's authors writing about, you know, writing their own books, but you've actually, you've translated a memoir from a soldier who fought in the Napoleonic Wars, which is really cool.
00:01:54
Speaker
Also in your bio, so you write about both African-American soldiers during World War II and the Napoleonic Wars, which seems like quite a split. How'd you get interested in that? Actually, I specialize in Black American soldiers during the Second World War. It's actually one of my own books. Okay. Yeah, plug it. Pull it out. It's about the 614 tank destroyer of the time. It's a Black American unit during the Second World War.
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah. I'm afraid that the audience that's listening cannot look at the images, but yeah, just to give you a bit of an impression. Yeah. Well, obviously like the, that's a, that's a topic that doesn't get written enough about.
Translating Napoleonic Memoirs: A COVID-19 Project
00:02:40
Speaker
Maybe we'll talk about, you write another book about it. Maybe we can talk about that, but, um, very interesting to hear that that's something you study.
00:02:47
Speaker
But yeah. Yeah, well, we're just going to talk about the Napoleonic words today. So for this memoir that you've translated, so the soldier, his name is CJ, I could be butchering this pronunciation, CJ Wagavir. Wagavir, induction.
00:03:11
Speaker
I can understand that the pronunciation might be a bit difficult. Sure, sure. And so this, so obviously he died in like the 1800s. He's long gone. What got you interested in this topic? Why did you choose to translate this memoir? Actually, this related to the Black American soldiers, because I translated it during the COVID period.
00:03:35
Speaker
There were lockdowns everywhere, not just in the Netherlands, but also in the USA. And all the archives were closing. I could not get the sources that I needed. I could not get access to certain books that I needed to reference. And as such, I was thinking, OK, this is everything I cannot do, but what can I still do?
00:03:59
Speaker
So I know Dutch, uh, I know English and I was thinking like, okay, so what can I do that is still related to history? The things that I find interesting.
CJ Wagavir: A Dutch Officer in Napoleon's Army
00:04:10
Speaker
And it was during that time, the idea developed like, why don't I try to translate one of these memoirs? So I reached out to my publisher, Pen and Sword. I always work with them and I'm very happy. I love Pen and Sword. Pen and Sword is great. Yeah. I'm happy to hear it.
00:04:30
Speaker
So I reached out to them with this idea. I was like, okay, so I have this Dutch memoir. It's around this many words and we can translate it if you're interested. And of course they were interested and that's how we proceed it.
00:04:46
Speaker
Very cool. Well, talk a little bit about the author of this memoir, CJ. I'm just going to say Wagavir. And for everybody who speaks Dutch, I apologize. But tell me about this person. Who was he? When was he born? When did he die? What was his role in this memoir? He was a Dutch career officer. So we have to go a bit back into history.
00:05:17
Speaker
So, Wagfir joined the invasion of Russia or the Russian campaign by Napoleon in 1812. And at that time he was, if I recall correctly, 30 or 31 years old. It's in the book because at that certain moment he celebrates his birthday. We'll come back to it later. So let's say he's born 1980 somewhere. Sorry, not 19, 1780.
00:05:47
Speaker
And he was a Dutch career officer. He joined at a very young age together with his younger brother. His father was also a career military officer, although I believe he became an officer later on anyway.
00:06:02
Speaker
At a certain moment, the Netherlands were conquered by the French Empire, and as such, he transitioned from the Dutch army into the French army, which was of course modeled on the French military units. So the French had a certain structure in their line regiments, and the Dutch army was adapted to it.
00:06:28
Speaker
He participated in various military campaigns. He also mentions some of them. At a certain moment, he talks about how he has fought against the Swedish people. And at a later moment, he references the Battle of Waterloo in which he also participated. Anyway, to come back to it.
00:06:50
Speaker
It's actually really interesting because he also admits like, I'm not a literary man, like I'm not a writer or something. And at a certain moment, he also says like, if people enjoyed reading it, because I really enjoyed writing it, I'm like doubly rewarded. And in a way, for me, it's also true because I really enjoyed translating it and like researching the book and everything that's involved with it.
00:07:18
Speaker
Now he said he's 30, 31. Does he have a family? What's his life like before he's sent off?
Understanding the Napoleonic Wars
00:07:27
Speaker
I did not find any evidence that he was married, and I believe he died single as well. He died in 1826. Yeah, 1826. Also in a Dutch village. But he had two sisters.
00:07:45
Speaker
And they, of course, they were married and they had children. He also mentions his reunion with them in the book. His younger brother was married, although I do not know if they had children. His younger brother did die at a young age. Well, let's talk a little bit about the Napoleonic Wars before we go into kind of the story of this memoir.
00:08:12
Speaker
And I don't know if you found this the case with other Americans that you've met, but I know almost nothing about the Napoleonic Wars. In fact, I just had somebody on this show who was writing about the War of 1812 here in America. And I got the date of Waterloo wrong. And I feel like that's like a date that most people who study military history would know. And I edited it out, so nobody saw it. I'm outing myself here.
00:08:41
Speaker
But I really like, I don't, I was never taught in school. I knew about Napoleon, of course, and I knew he went to Russia and I knew that he had to turn back. The winter was what, you know, general winter is what defeated Napoleon. But other than that, I don't really know much about like the causes or really what was going on. Could you just like, for at the most basic level, and this is 1812,
00:09:10
Speaker
What's going on in Europe? What is Napoleon trying to do?
Napoleon's Motivations: Ideology or Resources?
00:09:15
Speaker
Who's fighting who? Could you just give us a real primer into the Napoleonic Wars? It's 1812, and Napoleon has conquered Germany, Italy, Spain, or large parts of Spain. This is just because he wants to conquer them. It's for the land. Is that more or less correct?
00:09:38
Speaker
I think in a way it's also Napoleon, his whole character. It's like he pushes on. It's not necessarily for resources or for any kind of ideology. It's just that's what he wants to do.
00:09:54
Speaker
In a way, I think it could be a certain ideology. I mean, it could also be a way of like eliminating threats. I mean, of course, like he did not conquer Britain. Russia was still a potential threat. So it could be a way of like, I need to I need to conquer everyone because then no one can attack me. And of course, I understand that this
00:10:20
Speaker
It's a very European topic. I mean, everything happened on the European mainland. So I can imagine that it might not connect with everyone in the US. But nonetheless, this is a really fascinating period of history. So 1812, like you said, Napoleon's, he's conquered all these other countries. What's he setting his sights on?
00:10:46
Speaker
Okay, so he wants to conquer Russia. And in order to do so, he amasses a huge army in order to... He needs troops to conquer Russia.
00:10:56
Speaker
And he's taking a lot of, not only like French soldiers, but also Germans, Austrians, also Dutch Italians, even some Spanish, and they all go to Russia in order to support his effort of conquering Russia. And of course, this goes very wrong.
00:11:19
Speaker
There's some excellent histories about it, but in a nutshell. So he reaches Moscow, which is set of flames and he stays there hoping he can make peace with the Russian Tsar. But it doesn't work out and he has to retreat. But because he waited hoping for peace, he again lost valuable time that he could have used in retreating. Again, I think one thing I also do know is
00:11:46
Speaker
Maybe this isn't common knowledge, but didn't Napoleon leave all his soldiers in Russia in return to France? Wasn't that like, wasn't that part of what he did and he returned saying like the Emperor can't be harmed or something? I think it's like maybe one of those Napoleon type could be a myth, but I think that's something I've heard about that that period of time. It is indeed in the retreat that
00:12:08
Speaker
I'm not sure what the name of the village was, but they are retreating and at a certain moment Napoleon needs to go back because there was an uprising in France. So he needs to be there in order to show the people, like, hey, I'm still there, I'm still the emperor.
00:12:27
Speaker
It's also what he wrote in one of his messages that went back to France. It's like, okay, the emperor is healthy or the emperor is doing well. That's what it was. He got back and his army is abandoned. And he's like, don't worry, the emperor is safe. And that was something that I remember reading that's emblematic of his personality.
00:12:50
Speaker
Well, let's, let's focus in a little bit on, uh, on Wagavir and his journey towards Russia.
Wagavir's Motivations: Patriotism or Obligation?
00:12:57
Speaker
So what, so, so talk about like, so he starts out in the Netherlands. I'm curious, like what, what, what is his, is he just decide, is he participating because this is his job or does he have, is it a patriotic duty that makes him join this, this journey? Like what are his motivations at this point in his life? Okay.
00:13:22
Speaker
This could actually be, it's a very good question because to a certain extent you can indeed discuss like how nationalistic is Wagfir. Because, so he published his book in 1820, which is after the Dutch king came back. And the king also gave him his job because after the Napoleonic Wars, he returned as prisoner of war, he did not have a job.
00:13:48
Speaker
And he had again enlisted in the army because he had nothing else to do. And during, so to come back to it, when they were marching there, at certain moments he comments on the French people or he comments on the French emperor.
00:14:07
Speaker
But of course, like everything is written and published after the fighting is over. Imagine if, okay, so say France had won and indeed the Netherlands state occupied. I wonder if it would have been the same. Did he still think the same or would he have said like, no, no, I'm French. But of course this is this whole other topic.
00:14:35
Speaker
He is a career officer. And I think in a way, it's like, okay, he doesn't, he doesn't know any better. And of course, he makes certain nationalistic comments about the French Empire and about the Netherlands. But yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't know any better. At a certain moment, in the book, he also says like,
00:14:59
Speaker
Okay. So they're being transferred deeper into Russia and they need to mend their own clothes. And he, again, he says like, yeah, I'm a career military officer. I'm not a, I'm not a tailor. Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, I think that when you get to, you know, you're, you're like an officer at this time, it's kind of a prestigious thing, right? To be an officer in any kind of army. I know in Britain you, I think officers, to become an officer, you had to pay.
00:15:29
Speaker
Some I forget what it's called, but you had to pay money to become an officer. In fact, you could very easily just like step into an officer's position by having a bunch of money. Is it the same the same thing in Napoleon's army? For what it was different, he really. He enlisted in the army, I believe at the age of 12 or 14, but at a very young age and he served for several years, I believe he served for most of his life in an army.
00:16:00
Speaker
So yeah, there's no, I can understand his mindset because it's like, okay, I've done this my whole life. I don't know anything else. I can imagine it's quite a, okay, so let's say, let's assume you're an officer, but you're also trained to be an officer, it will be very difficult to suddenly say like, okay, I'm going to do something, something else.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah. I think it would have been difficult for him to, I don't know, serve as a farmhand or as a servant somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is his occupation. Yeah. Well, start us off on the journey from the Netherlands to
March to Russia: Strategic Preparations
00:16:37
Speaker
Russia. Where does, where does Wagavir go first?
00:16:39
Speaker
Okay, so they're in Groningen, the north of the Netherlands, and it's there that the entire regiment is gathered. It's the 125th regiment of the line. It's an infantry unit, and it consists of almost all Dutch soldiers. There are some French officers in the unit, and even the commander of the unit is a Dutchman, Colonel Wagner. He later dies in the journey.
00:17:10
Speaker
So they're being gathered because some of the units were guarding some sea sluices or they were sent to some other place and they're gathered in Groningen and from there they march all the way through the north of Germany until they reach what is now Poland and from there they proceed towards the north.
00:17:32
Speaker
into the Baltic states and from there they go further east all the way until small lands I believe the furthest they reach yes no small lanes it's they go even further
00:17:49
Speaker
So they go north then and then come back down. Is that correct? They go a little bit to the north and then they proceed eastwards. In the book is also a map with some of the places that he mentions. So he proceeds towards the east and that's of course when eventually the retreat comes from Moscow, they're joining in the retreat.
00:18:17
Speaker
And because they were quite late to arrive, I believe that at the time that the French army was crossing the Russian border, they were still in the Netherlands. So they were a couple months behind all the others. So other soldiers probably had to endure a lot more hardship and they were relatively fresh.
00:18:45
Speaker
In the land that they're passing through, so through Germany, this is all land that has been conquered by Napoleon already. What's the landscape like passing through? Are these burned down towns that they're marching through? Are the people there pretty supportive of Napoleon's army just pushing through? What's that journey look like? It's actually really interesting because
00:19:12
Speaker
Most of the French, most of the German people seem supportive and that can either be opportunistic reasons or it might be because they got paid or they could earn a certain amount of money for it. Imagine, I don't know, let's say you're a wine trader.
00:19:30
Speaker
I can assume that it's more important for you to have stable income rather than deciding like, oh no, I don't sell to French soldiers or I don't sell to certain people. Actually, a funny thing is that during his march through the north of Germany, at a certain moment, he is in the house of German and he has an argument with this man because
00:19:58
Speaker
So at first this man is not friendly to him because he assumes he is a French officer and later he discovers he is actually a Dutchman and then he becomes even more unfriendly and at a certain moment he says that he would rather have 10 Frenchmen in his house than a single Dutchman.
00:20:17
Speaker
I remember reading that and I was like, oh, I didn't realize the Dutch were disliked at this particular place. Well, what's like the first time that Waggeveer sees action?
Witnessing War's Horrors
00:20:30
Speaker
There are certain battles that are being waged as they go deeper into Russia. At a certain moment, they're a bit to the south.
00:20:44
Speaker
And it's there that they're preparing for a potential attack, but it doesn't happen. I'd say it's, yeah, it's a bit difficult because there are small skirmishes are happening. So it could be like a patrol that is being sent out that needs to.
00:21:06
Speaker
take by force supplies from villagers. And of course, like in some of these engagements, the villagers resisted. It's also again in the book. And not in all cases, these patrols were successful. Some patrols vanished or were defeated.
00:21:28
Speaker
So it could be that he participated in one of these patrols and because he doesn't mention it in detail on the other hand. Well, I actually found those parts very interesting because he speaks about how awful war is. So he sees villages getting like burned and he sees death.
00:21:49
Speaker
I think at one point he's like, the smell of death is just like everywhere in these villages and he sees a lot of violence. Talk a little bit about like, why is this violence taking place? It's indeed, he often encounters it and he also mentions how, okay, so if the rulers experienced this themselves, there would never be war.
00:22:19
Speaker
So if they were the ones that had to... I highlighted that line, actually. I thought that was a very powerful line. And it's a way that, yeah, what I'm thinking about is at the end of the book, there's appendix and it contains some of the letters that his commanding officer Wagner wrote home. And in it, for instance, he mentions there's no shortage of food or that
00:22:48
Speaker
He read somewhere or he heard somewhere that people are complaining. Sorry. People are complaining about a lack of pay or whatever. And he mentions like, I'm suffering from nothing. And yeah, I think it's the same with what the emperors are experiencing. Like for them, it's not the same. I mean, they are in their palaces or they're comfortable or yeah.
00:23:16
Speaker
They will not suffer hunger. And so this type of rating, this is part of the Napoleonic, this is part of Napoleon's army strategy of kind of, of living off the land.
Napoleon's Strategy: Living off the Land
00:23:27
Speaker
Is that correct? Yeah. Uh, it was very common at the time because, uh, the idea was that if you're in the country of the enemy, um, everything that you take, like they cannot use. So if you take all of their foodstuffs and you need to retreat,
00:23:43
Speaker
There's no food for them to take. Of course, the Russians also employed this with the scorched earth method. And sometimes they willingly burned down certain villages or destroyed certain places so that the French could not use it. One of the places where it happened is Smolensk. It's the citadel where they are approaching and he stays there for a couple of nights.
00:24:13
Speaker
And it's also burned down. And because it's burned down, like it offers no shelter for the troops. Like, okay, it's raining and snowing and you want to get out of the weather, but yeah, it's not possible because everything is burned down. You need food. So there's no food for them to find. And this is going to hurt the French army later on. Because okay, you need to stay healthy in order to fight. And yeah, diseases are ravaging around them and
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, of course, they didn't understand sanitation like we do. Like for us, it's okay, you need to wash your hands before dinner. And yeah, this was a lot different.
00:24:56
Speaker
Well, what's soldiering like at this point before they meet the Russians? Is it marching every day? Is it kind of holding still until you're given orders to proceed forward? What's a soldier doing on a daily basis at this point? Or maybe it's raiding villages. What's soldiering at this moment? Okay, so for most of the journey until they are in Russia, it's indeed like every day just marching, going forward.
00:25:25
Speaker
Certain moments they have a day of rest and like he mentions them specifically because they were so different from the others So they're marching every day and I believe it's around 40 kilometers I'm guessing that's around 30 miles top of my head Marching every day that needs to happen and Yeah At a certain moment They are indeed
00:25:55
Speaker
in Russia and it's where they are going a bit to the south in order to prepare for a potential attack by the Russian army in the south that's marching to the north. Okay, so they're proceeding towards Russia and they have to march every day but once they get there, they're deploying a bit to the south in order to prepare for a potential attack by a Russian army that's marching to the north.
00:26:23
Speaker
And while they are there, of course, like the pace of life is different. They have a lot more time to spend on not just taking care of their equipment, but also in taking care of themselves. At a certain moment, Wagfir comments on how he walked up a mountain and enjoyed the view there.
00:26:47
Speaker
which is of course like a very different situation. So imagine like you're in an army, you're in a war and it's like, okay, we need to prepare for an attack. And it's also like, okay, we have enough time. Like I'm going to walk up this mountain and I'm going to enjoy the view. It's a very, it's a sharp contrast in the old situation. So, uh, talk about Russia, talk about Wagavir's capture. First off, is the first time that he encounters the Russian enemy? Is that when he gets captured?
00:27:18
Speaker
It's not his first encounter because he has been in battle for a couple of days He does write also about it how he's like, okay, so they go into a village and They assume they can settle down for the night, but it turns out that the Russians they've hidden themselves in this village and Eventually like they're discovered and our whole battle ensues So it's not the first time he encounters them
00:27:49
Speaker
He is captured during the Battle of the Beresina or Borisov. And it's, yeah, it's actually a very unfortunate event because there's a small village and a little north of it is where the crossing is. So it's where the whole army gets across. And because they were, because they're fresh, like they're ready
00:28:19
Speaker
because they were, like I said, they had to suffer less. They were deployed as a rear guard because the assumption was that they would be more able to resist. However, as they are proceeding north, the road that they need to take is full of people. It's full of people that lost their units, but also women and children that are hoping to make it to the crossing.
00:28:46
Speaker
And instead of like, okay, waiting and proceeding later, they proceed onward and hope they can find another way to the river later.
00:28:59
Speaker
But yeah, it turns out they're marching straight into the enemy. Of course, it's night. Everything is dark. And they are trying to take on the enemy. But yeah, it's impossible because the enemy has set up in daylight. So they are prepared. They know, OK, this is the direction they're going to take. And they can just fire their cannons. And they know they'll hit something or someone.
00:29:28
Speaker
I note on that, Wagetberry seems particularly drawn to instances of people getting hit by cannonballs. I notice that he is often remarking on people
00:29:40
Speaker
losing their limbs, their heads, like getting completely crushed by cancer cells. I'm sure he was terrified, marching into something like that. What's the actual capture like? Is it just people jump out with guns and they're like, put your weapons down? How does the surrender happen?
00:30:03
Speaker
They cannot defeat the enemy, so they retreat and they deploy on a mountain. And of course, their ranks have thinned a lot. They lost a lot of people along the way.
00:30:15
Speaker
So they are deploying on the mountain and they form a square. So it means like there's a common type of deployment against, for instance, cavalry attacks. Basically, it means that there's like four sides of soldiers. So there's guns in every direction. And they just deploy in a square and he is in the middle of it.
00:30:41
Speaker
And once they're there, they hope relief will come from the other side of the river crossing, like, okay, maybe an army will come across to save us. But yeah, it doesn't happen. And eventually the officers, they negotiate a surrender with the Russians. And when daylight comes, it turns out they are indeed surrounded. So even if they had wanted to escape, it would have been impossible.
00:31:09
Speaker
And he's just numb, like, okay, he's suffering from hunger. He's suffering from cold. His feet are hurting. I believe one of his toes is even frozen. So he's just very numb. We'll talk about going into Russian captivity because this seemed like a real striking moment of his memoir. What are the conditions that he's living under while in Russian captivity?
00:31:37
Speaker
So they're mugged and robbed. One of his gorges, like his gorget as officer, he has a certain plate around his neck to show that he's an officer and it's being ripped off. They're taking the shoulder pieces away from him. They're taking away his money and he's just being robbed and everything that they can take, the Russians can take, they will take.
00:32:04
Speaker
And it's meaningless to resist, because Wagafir also comments how a certain high ranking officer, Lieutenant Kono of the, not of his unit, but of another unit, he stabbed to death because he resists. And besides being robbed, he's also humiliated.
00:32:23
Speaker
At a certain moment, a Russian soldier stands across of him and he spits in his face and he calls him a French dog. And it's very humiliating for him, especially because he's an officer, so he's not used to this kind of treatment. What's the approximate date that we're talking about that he gets captured? It's November 1812.
00:32:48
Speaker
So things are getting cold. So talk about what it was like around this time.
Prisoners of War: Survival and Hardship
00:32:53
Speaker
It's gotten very cold. What is it like to be in captivity under the Russian army? Okay, so it's 27 November and it's like minus 30 something. It's very cold. And yeah, they're all very hungry. They have not eaten a lot for several days. And they're being marched away
00:33:16
Speaker
from the French army. Of course, this is a logical decision because the further they are away from the other French soldiers, the less likely the odds are they can be liberated or they can be freed. So they're being marched away, but all of these soldiers are very hungry. And this is, of course, one of the things that he
00:33:41
Speaker
often writes about it's like, okay, we need to get food. Like we need to find food or we need something to eat. And yeah, he doesn't have a lot to eat. Like he's right after they are taken prisoner that like almost all of the soldiers, all of the officers and the soldiers are separated and the officers are all put into a house. And that's where they are stayed.
00:34:06
Speaker
They stayed for several, I believe for a day or something. But of course, they don't receive a lot of food. They find a horse outside and they butcher it. But because it's divided among so many people, it's not a lot of meat for everyone.
00:34:23
Speaker
Yeah. And he talks about just seeing people dying all around him and just the terrible conditions of people freezing to death. There is one anecdote in particular that he shared about helping somebody take their boot off and the guy's toes came off with the boot and like he couldn't do it anymore. Like he had to, he couldn't help him take the other shoe off and conditions were that bad.
00:34:51
Speaker
In terms of POWs, how many people perished under Russian captivity at this time? Do we know that number?
00:35:02
Speaker
I'm afraid I don't know it. What I do know is that not a lot of his unit returned to the Netherlands. At a certain moment he mentions like almost a whole list like okay so this officer died and this officer died and this officer died and yeah, most of them did die indeed.
00:35:24
Speaker
very quick in their captivity because okay they're taking prisoner and of course like there's diseases they need food and at that time like people were not as advanced as we are so they did not know like hey I need to like wash my hands before eating dinner or like okay so I'm
00:35:48
Speaker
If I need to go to the toilet, I should get rid of it instead of just leaving it out there. And so how long does, how long does Wagavir stay in captivity? He returns in 1814 to the Netherlands. I believe it's almost one and a half year that he spends in captivity. So when he gets back, like how is, how is life different for him?
00:36:13
Speaker
It was very different because not only was the Netherlands no longer occupied by the French and Dutch King had returned, but also there were quite a few personal changes. So he returns as a POW and it's a bit like
00:36:35
Speaker
He's left to fend for himself at first. Eventually he does, he is accepted back into the army, but he receives half pay. So it's like 50% salary. So what part of this story did you find particularly interesting or new in this field? I was actually very surprised by all the horrific conditions they had to endure, which were, yeah.
00:37:06
Speaker
It was a terrible campaign, like a lot of things that, uh, a lot of many things went wrong. And, um, even in these horrible conditions, so everyone is hungry, everyone is cold and people are still engaging in
Reflecting on War's Absurdity and Personal Costs
00:37:20
Speaker
combat. And that's what I actually find it's, it's, it's such a mind boggling situation. Imagine it's like, okay, it's minus 30. Both of us are hungry and we're still.
00:37:32
Speaker
fighting with each other. We're still engaging each other simply because, okay, the emperor over there and the emperor over there decided we should fight with each other. Does Wagner have any thoughts about, like, what are his thoughts on having been put through two years of his life in service of Napoleon? What are his thoughts on that?
00:37:56
Speaker
Um, he does have certain thoughts on it because at some moment he mentions how, uh, all of his, all of his positions, everything, he's lost everything when he was taken prisoner. Um, so, and it's not only him, but like many others as well. Um, it's in the beginning of the book, he says that, um, these soldiers have to put their, their blood and their wealth at, uh,
00:38:24
Speaker
at risk for the whims of the French emperor. So yeah, he's not, like he's lost everything. And I think in a way it is also a very traumatic event. Of course, like war is, it's never fun, but he was taken prisoner and he was humiliated on several occasions.
00:38:50
Speaker
He's been spat upon, he's been humiliated, not just by commoners as well, but at a certain moment he meets with the Russian prince in Moscow, and this prince also mocks him. And of course, he's a Dutchman, he's not a Frenchman, so when he comes there, he's there like, hey, I'm a Dutchman,
00:39:18
Speaker
the prince, he is not a Dutchman, he is a French soldier that is coming to complain about something. And of course like this prince sends him away and they're being picked up by the guard and escorted out of the city. And as they're driving away like people throw manure and other things at them, which is again very
00:39:42
Speaker
So not a warm welcome that POW has received. So I think in a way, it's also a very traumatic event that he needed to, he needed to process.
Lessons from Wagavir's Memoir: Resilience and Hope
00:39:55
Speaker
And I can imagine that the writing can be a way of like processing what happened.
00:40:01
Speaker
Yeah. Well, my last question here is, um, first email has been a great interview. Uh, I've loved your, your answers to my questions and this is such an interesting story. What are you hoping that, that readers take away from reading this memoir? Um, what lessons do you think we have to learn from CJ Wagavir's life?
00:40:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very good question. And I'm thinking, and the first thing that comes to mind is, don't lose hope. And that's what he also says several times. Of course, like he was a very religious person. He mentioned several times like, you should have faith in God.
00:40:46
Speaker
And it's actually, that's what I would say, like don't lose hope. Like no matter how bad the circumstances, uh, might be, you have to survive. Uh, or as long as you keep surviving, like things can take a turn for the better. Um, so that's what I would say. Great. Well, um, Samuel DeCorta fighting for Napoleon's army in Russia at POWs memoir by CJ Wagavir.
00:41:11
Speaker
Um, go out and buy a coffee, check it out from your library. What an interesting story about the Napoleonic Wars and, and what it means to be a soldier at this time. Really enjoyed it. And, um, well, actually before I sign off here, Samuel, if people want to follow you and stay in touch with your work, how can they do that? Are you on social media? Um, where can people find you and stay in touch with what you're doing?
00:41:36
Speaker
Of course. So I have my own website, samuel.com. I will send the links over to you. We might put them somewhere on the website. Also, I have Instagram and Facebook or LinkedIn. Great. Wonderful. Usually, my Instagram is where I regularly post updates about the contributions of Black American soldiers during the Second World War.
00:42:04
Speaker
Yeah, I'm a little bit off topic, but like recently we found a picture of a black American soldier that we did not know this picture existed. It's in an archive and by chance we stumbled upon it.
00:42:20
Speaker
And the story of this soldier is a little bit known. It's Mac B. Anderson was a Black American soldier in an engineering unit in 1942. The airfield he was at was attacked. It was in India. It was attacked by Japanese fighters. And he fired upon them with his 30-cal machine gun.
00:42:48
Speaker
And we found a picture of him and I put this picture out there and I hope people will see it because it adds a face to the story. It's like, okay, like this story, some people know it, some people don't, but this story is recorded and now there's like a face attached to it. Well, for everyone listening out there, go check out Samuel's Instagram. I'm guessing it's at Samuel DeCorta. Is that your handle?
00:43:17
Speaker
Uh, I believe it's Samuel dot decorative. Okay. Well, I'll send it over. Well, we've got a, we've got a nice teaser for the audience here. Yeah. Um, Samuel, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for your, your thoughtful answers to my questions. Um, what, like I said, what an interesting story that you've helped put out there. And, um, thank you.