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Cold War – The CIA: An Imperial History – Hugh Wilford
206 Plays3 months ago
Ep 052 – Nonfiction. As World War II ended, the United States stood as the dominant power on the world stage. In 1947, to support its new global status, it created the CIA to analyze foreign intelligence. Historian Hugh Wilford talks about the CIA’s imperial history in his new book, “The CIA: An Imperial History”
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Transcript
Is America an Empire?
00:00:00
Speaker
Because i don't actually I'm not sure if this is if this is controversial to say or not. But for our listeners, and would you would you say that America is an empire? And if so, why is that? Yeah, it's i mean it's it's it's not a formal empire. right It doesn't sort of have formal colonies. But if you think about an empire as a ah ah nation that exerts a great deal of influence beyond its borders, then then I think that the US does qualify in that respect, right? It exerts tremendous cultural power, tremendous soft power, tremendous economic power, and and military power as well, you know with with military bases ah all all all over the world projecting this this really up degree of military power almost unprecedented ah in in world history. so
00:00:57
Speaker
um You know, somebody might object, well, yeah, but it's not an empire like Britain was, right, with, you know, in India and various other sort of formal colonies, so to speak. But, you know, the the the British Empire went through various iterations and it wasn't just about formal colonialism, it also projected economic power and there were sort of informal colonies and so on. So it's, if you just sort of, if you kind of judge the US according to um you know an index of ah other world powers, which nobody would deny were empires, then it does start to look on an awful lot like an empire itself.
Introduction to Hugh Wilford and His Work
00:01:44
Speaker
Hi, everyone. This is AJ Woodhams, host of the War Books Podcast, where I interview today's best authors writing about war-related topics. ah Today, I am extremely excited to have on the show Hugh Wilford for his new book, The CIA and Imperial History. Hugh Wilford is a professor of history at California State University, Long Beach, and author of five books, including America's Great Game and The Mighty Wurlitzer. Hugh, how are you doing today? I'm doing well, thank you, AJ. Yeah, well, thanks for joining me. um I always enjoy talking about
00:02:25
Speaker
CIA intelligence type stuff. I've had a few other people who who have been on the show talking about it from all sorts of different angles. um But this is the first Imperial history, I think we're going to get on this show. And I saw this title and it really fascinated me um because I wasn't quite sure what to make of it. ah So maybe I'll just start off here. um Tell me a a little bit. um What is this book about and talk about that title?
00:02:54
Speaker
Sure. I'm glad to hear you found it sort of fascinating and it drew you in. It did what it was supposed to do. Well, I i guess ah I've um been writing about the CIA for a number of years and i not that long ago did a ah lecture um video series for for the great courses, which is kind of very much a sort of a narrative history of the CIA, but it it left me with some bigger questions and some bigger thoughts which I sort of wanted to push into a book. um And ah part partly also it was a question of bringing together
00:03:35
Speaker
different academic fields, intelligence history and also the the history of American foreign relations and sort of thinking about the CIA ah in the framework of of some of the the kinds of approaches that that that that dip the US s diplomatic historians have been taking recently.
00:03:54
Speaker
and And in particular, I wanted to sort of reframe the CIA's history um in in this new history of the Cold War that's been coming out, which is thinks about it as a clash of
CIA's Role in Cold War and Imperial History
00:04:11
Speaker
empires. right It's unprecedented in some ways in that you know it's it's um Soviet communism versus American and and Western democracy.
00:04:23
Speaker
and and then the free market, et cetera. But it's also a lot like earlier conflicts between great powers. And and it's it's a lot like the so-called great game clash between imperial but Britain and czarist Russia that that sort of featured in.
00:04:41
Speaker
ah novels by the likes of Rudyard, kiping Kip things Kim, I'm thinking of in particular ah here. So I really just wanted to sort of locate the the CIA and how it gathered intelligence and how it ran covert operations within that sort of longer imperial history and just kind of see where that would take me, what sorts of revelations that that would produce. Well, I guess to just kind of lay some groundwork here,
00:05:08
Speaker
um because i don't actually I'm not sure if this is if this is controversial to say or not, but for our listeners, and would you would you say that America is an empire? And if so, why is that?
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's i mean it's it's it's not a formal empire. right It doesn't sort of have formal colonies. But if you think about an empire as a ah ah nation that exerts a great deal of influence beyond its borders, then then I think that the US does qualify in that respect. right It exerts a tremendous cultural power, a tremendous soft power, a tremendous economic power.
00:05:50
Speaker
and And military power as well, you know with with military bases ah all all over the world projecting this this really up degree of military power almost unprecedented ah in ah in world history. So um you know somebody might object, well, yeah, but it's not an empire like Britain was, right? With you know in India and various other sort of formal colonies, so to speak.
00:06:17
Speaker
But you know the the the British Empire went through various iterations and it wasn't just about formal colonialism, it also projected economic power and there were sort of informal colonies and so on. sos if if you just sort of So if you kind of judge the US according to um you know an index of ah other world powers, which nobody would deny were empires, then it does start to look an an awful lot like an empire itself.
00:06:44
Speaker
We'll talk a little bit about before we get too much into, so the majority of the book is not about, um the majority of the book is about Cold War history. um Although I think you we get like a few paragraphs at the beginning of like what intelligence ah was like before World War II, before the creation of the CIA.
00:07:03
Speaker
um specifically in Europe and um some of some of the the empires that um that you compare America to. what was What was espionage? What was kind of the status of intelligence gathering by the imperial powers before World War II?
00:07:24
Speaker
um But it was it was tremendously as a sort of technique of empire. I think one of the things that imperial historians have stressed recently is often how despite all the sort of the pomp and circumstance, all the external splendor and displays of power often ah Empires were actually on the ground. They were very stretched in terms of the that how much control they could exert over foreign populations. and This is why intelligence was in important. You needed to know what was going on. You needed to know if other great powers were mustering in on your territory, ah if if local nationalist movements were were about to stage ah an insurgency.
00:08:07
Speaker
um so um it it it was it was vitally important to you know have know what was going on on the ground. And this is why, um ah especially in the sort of the late 1800s, even more so in the early 20th century, the British and French in particular really put a ah premium on on the importance of information information gathering. And and also,
00:08:32
Speaker
um ah secretly intervening as well. right you know The CIA was is an intelligence gathering organization. That's its first function. But early in the Cold War, it rapidly acquired other duties as well, covert action duties. and and the Again, the sort of the the imperial Europeans were sort of ahead of the the Americans and and the CIA in this respect, doing similar things themselves.
00:08:57
Speaker
So you you were right at the beginning, and basically the traditional narrative for American intelligence or the need for American intelligence is we're surrounded by an ocean on both sides. um you know when When wars come, you know there there will be intelligence. You write during the Revolutionary War, George Washington had intelligence and then during some of our other conflicts, there were intelligence gathering operations, but no sustained intelligence.
00:09:21
Speaker
effort. um Talk a little bit about that and talk about why that narrative might not exactly be true. you know Throughout American history the sort of pattern has been intelligence is considered important in in wartime and um when ah America as is at war during the Revolutionary War and later obviously World Wars I and II.
00:09:46
Speaker
then um it it creates intelligence organizations to to help wage those wars. But then there's also this national tradition, of course, of of a fear of secret government power in particular, but spies, ah generally but spies and espionage ah in in particular. So people wanting to sort of build a permanent peacetime spy service have always had to face up to a tremendous amount of of of opposition.
00:10:16
Speaker
um And it's really only sort of with the Cold War and this notion that um America is at this kind in this in this permanent protracted conflict that doesn't actually involve you know direct military engagement. It's ah it's only then that support becomes you know wide enough to to permit the creation of of an organization like the CIA.
Origins and Values of CIA Founders
00:10:41
Speaker
Well, let's fast forward to post-World War II founding of the CIA.
00:10:46
Speaker
um what is what is Talk about the founding of the CIA, the types of people who who worked at the CIA at its founding, and what is the connection with imperialism there? Sure. Well, I've just talked about isolationism and anti-imperialism. I think you know there is also, there's another and important sort of stranded in American political history, which is the existence of a, and if you can sort of compare it with European imperial powers, a sort of a group of people who wield a tremendous amount of power in American society who were kind of like a sort of an imperial class. ah The imperial brotherhood is what one historian, Robert Dean, called them, and I use that phrase ah in my book. So it's you know think Teddy Roosevelt, right? It's kind of that that sort of person. and and the the
00:11:40
Speaker
you know rose I think you mentioned three of his descendants all ended up working at the CIA too. Kim or Kermit, Archie and and Cornelius all become ah founding generation CIA officers. I mean, it's remarkable how you can... It's quite a small kind of group and media, but it it's very you know It exists very clearly. They're often, often you know in terms of their work, they're Wall Street lawyers. That seems to be the kind of the archetypal occupation for for people when when they're not spying. this This is the sort of work they do. They're members of of of of the gentlemen's clubs. that they They attend you know the same wifey league universities going, but they they even
00:12:27
Speaker
So many went to you know a small number of um New England prep schools, Groton in particular in rural Massachusetts. is is just that you You look at the Groton yearbook and it's almost like a sort of roll call of the early CIA, right? um So it it's these peoples who come from it's these people who come from this kind of very distinct social media. and And what they have is, it seems to me, is the kind of set of imperial values. They've they've been, Groton was established by a um um a man called Endicott Peabody, sort of, you know, lustrous, ancient New England family. And he'd he'd been educated in Britain at a British private school, public school, as they're rather confusingly known, and and Cambridge, and he'd, very this is a sort of around
00:13:20
Speaker
at the turn of the 20th century, and he thoroughly absorbed the sort of values of the British imperial class. you know Patriotism, you know, assumption that you're going to run things, um but that's also kind of a form of self-sacrificing service, right? right you know these These people think they're doing what is right for the the society.
00:13:41
Speaker
um to which they they belong. Anyway, this this kind of group of people is very much the the the group that um pushes for the formation of a civilian peacetime intelligence service after World War II and then staffs it and in the the years immediately afterwards.
00:14:02
Speaker
And I think that that's kind of why you know ah but's one of the reasons I think it's useful revealing to think of the CIA as as within the context of us this longer imperial history, the fact that that it its founders if very much have have imperial values, which isn't just one qualification to that. is is that there's There is another sort of, I think, an important strand in the CIA's kind of institutional DNA, so to speak, which perhaps hasn't been emphasized quite enough in in previous histories of it, which is to say missionaries are an important part of the CIA's early history. Because you know if you're looking around for people with foreign experience, you might understand foreign societies and be able to gather intelligence from them. um Missionaries are an important group to look to because you know not many
00:14:57
Speaker
Americans have international experience, right, experience of of living and working overseas. ah Missionaries do, and um ah ah a number, they're, so, mish kids, kids of missionaries, grandchildren, want to let their later generations, they are an important element in the early CIA as well. number with thead William Eddie, Stephen Penrose, a number of people who had served in the Office of Strategic Services in in World war two And then we're important in in making the CIA a permanent organization in 1947. You separate out the, um, like the, the missionary, the mish kids, you separate them out a little bit from the elite class. Is that correct? Yeah. I mean, there's, there's overlap there, you know, so, you know, um,
00:15:45
Speaker
Eddie, I think, had been to Princeton. you know ah ah but But yes, basically, i'm ah I think there is a difference. um One of the differences being that, perhaps surprisingly, a lot of the Mish kids are anti-imperial. They're living overseas, they've sort of gotten to know foreign people, and they they're often and in particular sort of local nationalist movements, ah you know try trying to secure freedom from European colonialism, and they've begun to really sympathize with those groups. So you have this kind of contradictory um element in in the early CIA's history of this kind of imperial class that's that's very important, but at the same time, this kind of missionary
00:16:30
Speaker
tradition of anti-colonialism as well. And it's one way I think of thinking about the early CIA is to see it somewhat as a sort of battle between those with kind of imperial values and those who are more more inclined to say, no, we should be, we should not be like an empire. We need to be different from from what has gone before and and you know but just but help uplift people who who had been colonized by the Europeans. Because of course, you know this as we'll perhaps go on to discuss the 19
00:17:04
Speaker
1940s, 1950s, this is the era when the European empires are ah falling apart, the era of decolonization, and and suddenly these parts of the world are sort of at play, as it were, and in the great power struggle that that they that then comes up between the US and the Soviets.
American vs European Intelligence Post-WWII
00:17:24
Speaker
Yeah, well, um let's yeah let's dive right into that. um i'm you know I'm curious.
00:17:30
Speaker
you know, we we started out talking about how America kind of took um took its cues from imperial espionage and how the European powers were conducting espionage. Now, World world War II has occurred and we're all living in a different world. um you Talk about just kind of the differences on how how how America is setting up its intelligence agency as opposed to how the European powers are are conducting their intelligence operations and how that's changing. Yeah. Well, I mean, there are and important differences. um you know European societies aren't quite as anti-imperial or isolationist as as American society is. So I think Europeans are sort of more ah prepared to kind of turn a blind eye took to what secret state services are doing.
00:18:24
Speaker
um it the You know, the the British state, ah ah this is just before World War I, invents basically MI5, you know, the Domestic Security Service and MI6, the foreign one, just completely secretly. I mean, there's no parliamentary discussion about this, um whereas the the CIA yeah is is conceived in, you know, congressional debate, right? it's it's it's it It comes out of the National Security Act of
00:18:56
Speaker
of 1947. So this is all being publicly debated. So this this is an important difference. And to me, that that that sort of is, isn't ah you know, I make the art the the broader argument that in fact, in many ways, the CIA is a lot like organizations like MI5 and MI6. But there are are these important differences as well. I think that the CIA is always facing kind of more more scrutiny and more skepticism from American citizens than than the than yeah European intelligence services are. So I think that that's an important difference going forward. So now the the um you know famously or or maybe infamously, um the American intelligence, the CIA is known for the coups that it um foments abroad. um and is Are the European powers, are they are they operating like this too? Do they operate completely different than how the CIA is operating?
00:19:54
Speaker
Well, again, i mean I think that there is a difference between the sort you know the high um tide of of European imperialism, the age of near imperialism. There aren't the the kind of the reputational costs that come with intervening openly that the US would face in the era of decolonization. That's one of the sort of big arguments I make in the book, is that The CIA becomes such an important instrument of American statecraft, bit bit because the Americans can't do in the era of decolonization, right, when when the um empires are deeply the unfashionable, right, that they can't do what the Europeans did, which was send in the gunboats, you know, the this little Palmerston Arch british British imperialist famously talking about about gunboat ah diplomacy. But having said that,
00:20:48
Speaker
Europeans, just as I was saying earlier, right the British aren't just formal colonialists, they also they're also their economic imperialists, cultural imperialists, etc. There are some links and and and comparisons to be drawn here as well in that and in the to The British do kind of do secret um interventions.
00:21:12
Speaker
they they They do organize coups much like the CIA organized the coup and and in 1953. The British first entered India, the Battle of Plassie. That was basically a kind of palace coup. And and and that they also do use coups during the the the Cold War as well, indeed.
00:21:33
Speaker
you know that operation I just mentioned, the 1953 overthrow of Mohammed Mosaddegh in Iran was a kind of co-British, American-British operation and the French resort to coups in in in in West Africa and so on. So there were are, I think there are also these similarities with the European imperial powers as well as connections. Historians these days of fond are talking about trance imperial connections and I think you you see those very clearly in in the history of American intelligence as as well.
00:22:07
Speaker
When would you say that that is the CIA was at its peak for yeah encouraging or starting coups in all these different countries around the world? Obviously today, you know it's not you know it's not um rampant, like it was although maybe that's a controversial statement too. It's not rampant. It's not the 1950s. No, it isn't. well Every few months, we're going around trying to overthrow these governments.
CIA's Covert Operations in the 1950s
00:22:34
Speaker
When would you say the CIA was really at its peak? Well, as as you said, it I think it's the fifties and sort of amongst, you know, within the CIA that used to be called the Golden Age, the um directorship of of Alan Dulles, who we became director sent in DCI, Director of Central Intelligence in 1953. And was he was very much, it seems to me, you know, a sort of an imperial kind of a venture. I mean, he
00:23:00
Speaker
he ah Rudyard Kipling's Kim was one of his favorite books. There was a copy by his bedside when when when he died. and he he he i you know he He was kind of very much of that Imperial Brotherhood class I was i was describing earlier. and and he and cover action really he He found intelligence pretty boring, you know just the kind of the the everyday business of collecting information yeah and analyzing it and and writing estimates. he He was much more into coups and whatnot. and And it's really under him during the fifties that until um the failed invasion, the failed you know what what had what had meant to be a coup and then became sort of a a a military operation at the Bay of Pigs in in in Cuba in 1961.
00:23:52
Speaker
And after that was the kind of end of the Golden Age, it led that Dulles subsequently was kind of made to resign and in in the wake of it. Obviously, it doesn't work. I mean, I probably don't need to spell that out, right? Castro survives. And if anything, his his his position is actually strengthened, I think, as a result of the the the Bay of Pigs to Bark Club. But even then, I mean, Kennedy was ah you know um Then president, obviously, John john Kennedy, was he was personally angered ah by the Bay of Pigs disaster because he he was embarrassed by it. but He was personally, politically damaged by it. But he still constantly resorted to coups in Latin America, so much so that the that the British, ah who had sort of noticed the kind of anti-colonialism of of ah the the Americans, they would
00:24:47
Speaker
and British leaders like Harold McMillan would sort of tease the Americans about this. They'd say, well, it seems, to you know, yeah you've forgotten about your anti colonialism, you're doing even more coups than we ever did. And sort of bravo, keep up. ah Well, actually, no, occasionally, they thought the Americans were almost getting too carried away with it. And and then, you know, Nick Nixon, another famous coup in in Chile in 1973, which um but was somewhat the work of the CIA, just as much the work of of of locals in the Chilean army. But but you know again, that that was that was another coup. The presidents often didn't, they they had personal reasons for disliking the CIA. Nixon in particular kind of thought they were just a bunch of you know sort of Ivy League snobs.
00:25:35
Speaker
Uh, and, um, you talk about the clowns over at Langley, but this didn't stop him when it suited his purposes to sort of, you know, reaching for the, the the covert powers of the CIA. And often that, that's a kind of another element of the book is, is often, yeah, that there were in sort of Imperial style adventurers like Alan Dulles, but a lot of, a lot of people at the CIA actually, um, were, were uncomfortable with kind of what they were being asked to do you know these constant interventions and try to rein in the covert action side and strengthen the original mission of intelligence gathering and and and analysis. but so you know a lot of if If you see it as a question of sort of apportioning blame, you know a lot of blame for the mission creep of the CIA from intelligence into ever more
00:26:25
Speaker
covert operations really lies at the the the the White House's door, right less' less so Langley's. Well, I want to go step set back a little bit to the Kunaran, which you mentioned. um so So in your book, there's some new research, some recently released ah documents that that you were drawing on.
Impact of the 1953 Iran Coup
00:26:48
Speaker
um Talk about that new research, talk about why it's important, and talk about how that fits into your book.
00:26:53
Speaker
Sure. So, yeah, yeah the there were a bunch of um CIA records declassified, people historians have been waiting for decades for this, but eventually they came out in 2017. And they didn't, and I think they they, people said, well, perhaps there isn't, they're not quite as revelatory as we'd hoped for, but it seems to me if you read them carefully, it does show you actually how important the likes of Alan Dulles were, and and also This guy, kermit Kim Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt's grandson, who who was running the the CIA's Near East ah division during these years, how important they were in the lead up to the Iran coup, actually is not not just in terms of planning the operation, but also kind of effectively making Iranian, making US policy vis-a-vis Iran.
00:27:44
Speaker
um and ah ah yeah as As you you know read these records, it's ah you also i think get that I had this previously um from from earlier research, but it is for me, it was just the impression was strengthened that kerme Kim Roosevelt, I keep saying that. i i'll call I'll just call him Kim Roosevelt, which is ah basically what how how he was known by everybody. you know and And I think that's another sign of the importance of sort of imperial British culture on these people that he his his is at you know the the nickname he had throughout his life was from the the Kipling story I've said in India, said in the Raj of about a young boy's spy. and And you know, camet roosevelt there's Kim Roosevelt, there's this strong a feeling about him that he is kind of living out
00:28:32
Speaker
almost to kind of kick the gasket venture as he goes into Iran and um basically links up with people who wanted rid of Mohad Mosaddegh, the democratic, the elected nationalist, anti-colonial Iranian prime minister um who had gotten into a dispute about nationalizing Iranian oil, which the British didn't want because they they ah they but effectively controlled it. so um
00:29:03
Speaker
And ah initially did so there's that there's this joint Anglo-American coup operation, i supposed to get rid of Mosaddegh, replace him with with ah um a an Iranian army general, as though there's Ahedi, and strengthen the rule of the Shah, who is seen as pro-Western, pro-American. It goes wrong. This coup operation is discovered in August the 15th, but then come Kim Roosevelt revives it and um and and and then it works. On August 19th, Mosaddegh is basically chased out.
00:29:45
Speaker
um the Shah, who had fled abroad, is is is is brought back home. and ah you have and And it's regarded as this tremendous you know Cold War victory in in in Washington.
00:29:57
Speaker
um um You know didn't have to invade it yet now in this strategically and economically crucial nation in the Middle East, you you have a pro-American leader. But of course, it's a short-term Cold War success perhaps you know looking now from the advantage The advantage for the 21st century, it ah many of its consequences seem very very negative and and regrettable right because it strengthens the rule of the Shah. He becomes increasingly autocratic.
00:30:29
Speaker
um that that create some of the conditions for the, the um you know, is that is the missed revolution of 1979, which overthrows the Sharon, produces this, you know, religious, the fundamentalist, deeply anti-American government that that that still exists today. Yeah. and yeah so so yeah know and And you see this in Kim Roosevelt's kind of career, that, you know, he he's hailed as ah as a hero. So many of these people are young. Alan Dulles wasn't. He'd been around for a number of decades, but, you know. And he's like people in the twenties or thirties? Yeah, twenties and thirties. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Roosevelt has this tremendous power and is controlling the fate of nations and he's in his mid, mid thirties, you know, and, and, and, you know, he, he really sort of trades on the success of Iran. But then as he gets older and the, you know, it doesn't stop to look, perhaps it'll be like it was such a great idea after all. And I think his,
00:31:23
Speaker
his reputation suffers accordingly. I wonder, you know, just kind of as as we've been talking about ah various coups around the world, um today, obviously Iran is, you know, that's a ah major example of how that did not work um in the long term for American interests. Did most of the countries where the CIA um had had a coup, ah have most of those countries by this point and in time, have they Has it worked out for America having done those operations or have most of them pretty much worked against us?
Consequences of CIA's Covert Actions
00:31:58
Speaker
I think long-term, you know, a lot of these, a lot of these operations have have, have started to look like they, you know, they should not have taken place, you know, Guatemala.
00:32:10
Speaker
um you know create say a you know military uh dictatorship um that that ah that you know kills a number of of Guatemalan citizens and ultimately you know and and you know a lot of these interventions ultimately just helped destabilize uh uh regions you know what what and and that was what and ah you know that they were intended to achieve in the first place from a U.S. point of view was stabilization so that they wouldn't become you know places of of of of ah communist power.
00:32:43
Speaker
um so um i and and you know it It damages the US reputationally as well. right you know So many people around the world you know just basically want to love America. i mean What's not to love? right you know Democracy is wonderful.
00:33:03
Speaker
of the culture, which so many people find seductive, you know all all of all of the US s is soft power. Yet you know this this notion that that secretly, kind of almost like you know they don't have it's kind of like it's it's the hypocrisy right that secretly, actually, there the US is sponsoring all all of these these interventions, you know making the CIA supposedly a secret government organization. And so that's the one of the most kind of notorious set of initials um ah in in the whole world, right in recent world history. you know this This is tremendously costly to the to the US reputation, speaking, getgert going forward.
Debate on CIA's Focus: Covert Ops vs Intelligence Gathering
00:33:42
Speaker
so i think that That's one of the kind of conclusions I reach. and i um you know I don't think I'm alone in in in in that respect. um yeah I think most most people who've studied the history of the CIA
00:33:53
Speaker
and ink thing you know and And this would include a number of great many CIA officers. I'll ultimately think that no but perhaps it should have stuck more to its ah original intelligence mission and and fewer of these these sorts of COVID interventions.
00:34:09
Speaker
Well, you your book is, and so you you divide it largely into two parts, um abroad and at home, so internationally and domestically, thinking from an American ah perspective.
00:34:20
Speaker
um But obviously, the CIA, is you know it it it does foreign it's a foreign intelligence yeah service. that Most of its work is related to governments outside of the country.
00:34:32
Speaker
um What is there to know about thinking of the imperial history, the CIA, domestically here in the US? What is there to know about the CIA? ah A surprising amount, right, for a a secret foreign intelligence agency. It's had this kind of oversized impact on US society and and culture as well. And um the the way I frame that is um around this concept of of the imperial boomerang.
00:35:01
Speaker
which is ah something that um originally um Third World and and European intellectuals talked about with regard to European societies, that basically um empires come home. They don't just happen over there. um the various ways and i mean I mean sometimes it's just the people concerned right you know your colonial officials repatriate then often are followed by waves of of of immigration from fallen former colonies but they're also you know ah other effects sometimes
00:35:34
Speaker
um um surveillance and policing techniques, which have been developed in the ah in in colonies, then come back and are applied to domestic populations as well. that Has that occurred in in the US? Well, yeah, I think it i think it has. in With regard in the sort of Cold War history of the sea, I mean, it's it's happened kind of pretty very obviously during the the the war on terror. So you get, you know, um
00:36:05
Speaker
ah surveillance techniques, you biometric methods of identification that that that were developed during the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan have then sort of been you know used at home as well. um ah Military hardware has been redeployed to police forces within the US s and
CIA's Domestic Influence During the Cold War
00:36:27
Speaker
and and so on. These are all kind of recent manifestations of the imperial boomerang. I think you see it during the history of the Cold War as well in that the um
00:36:37
Speaker
CIA counterintelligence run by this fascinating personality. that there are A lot of these characters are just like very, I try to hang all the sort, the kind of like the the the the institutional history and the big themes that we're talking about from portraits of individuals. So Kim Roosevelt features a lot when talking about the CIA overseas at home. It's this character who's interested many biographers, ah ah Previously, earlier on, James Angleton, who who who ran CIA counterintelligence, which is supposedly you know trying to stop foreign spy services from stealing American secrets. He ran it for many years during the Cold War. And and his counterintelligence unit within the CIA runs surveillance operations against um the anti-war movement, the anti-Vietnam War movement during the 1960s and early 1970s.
00:37:30
Speaker
um the Black Panthers, you know various Black nationalist organizations within within the US. Again, this is operating under orders from the White House, but that this is this is all being carried out by by the CIA. and to somehow I kind of see that almost as, you know to some extent, I think it's possible to see the anti-Vietnam War movement as a left-wing expression of the anti-imperial tradition within American history that I talked a bit ah about.
00:38:00
Speaker
earlier on, and if one sees the CIA as a kind of, at least in its early years, a kind of creation of this group I call the, and following Robert, the historian Robert Dean, I call the Imperial Brotherhood, then it's kind of, there's a sort of, it's it's the Imperial class going on versus spying on anti-Imperialists here, right? and in that So again, I think a kind of Imperial framework sheds some light on what's going on domestically within within the US. s and and There's this kind of does this permanent kind of tug of war between these kind of imperial and anti-imperial tendencies, and sometimes the anti-imperialists come out on top because the CIA
00:38:45
Speaker
In the mid-70s, it becomes the focus of a you know huge amount of negative publicity and and the sorts of powers it had developed in the early Cold War already reigned in by Congress. But then it kind of comes roaring back in the 1980s under Reagan, and and it's the sort of the anti-imperialists who are on the back foot. So I think all of this is kind of part of this wider history that you see in imperial societies of of the so-called the imperial boomerang effect.
00:39:13
Speaker
And I could take talk as well, but perhaps there's no need here about sort of how the CIA also becomes involved in domestic propaganda operations as well. I think that's it. I know, please talk. Oh, thank you. Thank you, A.J. Appreciate it. I'd rather set that one up, didn't I? So, yeah, the CIA, I'd written about this earlier in a book called The Mighty Worth It, sir.
00:39:39
Speaker
The CIA runs a ah lot of front groups during the Cold War, so groups that apparently are just private, spontaneously formed groups of of American citizens um with an interest in in in foreign affairs and often you know very anti-communist. In fact, the CIA is in the background secretly managing these groups and providing the the funding.
00:40:02
Speaker
Most of these groups are aimed at overseas populations. They're trying to win what was called the battle for hearts and minds in in in in the Cold War. It seems to me though that that a lot of these groups also ah have a kind of domestic facing element to them as well. They're about that you get groups called things like the the American friends of the Middle East and the um um American Society of African Culture, AMZAC. They're partly about trying to make the US look attractive to um the inhabitants of the Middle East or or Africa and and help win the Cold War sort of by soft power means. but
00:40:45
Speaker
like They also are about getting American citizens interested in these far away places. you know that They're they're trying to trying to mobilize American opinion behind the the the the Cold War. This, of course, is something that the British had done you know on a huge scale in the late 1800s and early 1900s. But overtly, right you know the British government could sponsor over at the ah parades and you know empire days and and and so on that that were about popularizing empire with ordinary Britons. With America and this kind of you know this um that this kind of covert empire that they were running during it was running to it during the Cold War, it's it's it's the CIA that that's responsible and the and the government funding is is is hidden. and Again, I kind of see this as part of the
00:41:40
Speaker
the domestic footprint of the CIA and other Imperial boomerang effect. Yeah. Well, um, I wanted to ask you about, so we've, we've talked a little bit about maybe what I would, I would say the peaks and valleys of the power of the CIA. So in the fifties, you know, obviously very powerful, um, uh, you know, in the seventies, you said maybe they were in a slump in the eighties, they were brought back. And then obviously going beyond that,
00:42:08
Speaker
yeah The Cold War ended, the Soviet Union collapsed, but then the war in terror, the CIA became much more relevant again. and I'm curious at at this point in history and thinking about imperial history too, you know what would you say, how would you classify the CIA right now in terms of you know with these, we're talking about peaks and valleys, um where where would the CIA fit right now?
00:42:34
Speaker
Yeah, right it's been quite the roller coaster ride and in the last 20 years of it of its existence. right i mean almost the you know the the ah The CIA was was blamed for for the surprise of 9-11, although I think somewhat unfairly in my mind. I i think that the White House, um the George Bush administration deserves equal blame for that. But after that, and and and then the weapons of mass destruction, the intelligence that debark in Iraq,
00:43:03
Speaker
the the CIA's reputation was pretty much at an all-time low, which was why it was sort of effectively demoted within the sort of intelligence hierarchy, and a director of national intelligence was which was put over the CIA and the various other intelligence agencies, thereby, as I say, sort of demoting the power of of the director of central intelligence. um But then you know with, um and ah again, you know some of the sort of publicity efforts, of the sort that i occurred during the the the the Cold War,
00:43:31
Speaker
um And um with ah with the success, you know the undoubted success of operations like the hunt for Osama bin Laden, right the the the CIA comes roaring back. and And during the war on terror, it's really in the front line again. right you know it' it's it's um It's given responsibility for for for targeted killing, right for drone for drone warfare.
CIA's Reputation and Modern Political Role
00:43:54
Speaker
um so um it's But then then comes Trump and these extraordinary, I mean, not entirely unprecedented because as I suggested earlier, Richard Nixon's very little love loss between Nixon and the CIA, but but you know the the level of of open hostility between Trump and the intelligence community and in particular, that that the CIA is utterly unprecedented.
00:44:17
Speaker
um ah so it it's and And then you get this kind of strange phenomenon, which is you know people perhaps on the progressive or liberal end of the political spectrum who previously would have criticized the CIA a great deal um because it's an enemy of Trump. um right They actually start to kind of see it as as as a good thing. And um John Brennan, the former director of the CIA, um in the Obama administration, who becomes an extraordinarily outspoken critic from from the intelligence community of of Trump. He becomes a sort of darling of of the liberal media. So it's kind you know it's right. It's topsy-turvy. Currently, you know it's and under under Biden, it's a pretty pretty friendly administration towards the intelligence community. It's it's kind of it's it's doing the sorts of you know um
00:45:16
Speaker
i missions, it's performing the sorts of missions that it's always performed in important intelligence gathering, some coat covert action as well. and And you know, I think the Biden administration is is is happy for it to carry on doing doing so quite who Who knows what will will happen after November? ah yeah As with so many things, right I'm sure well we'll we'll get another round of of if if Donald Trump is elected, of um White House versus Langley, Brawls.
00:45:50
Speaker
um ah yeah And clearly, you know Trump has ah has ah yeah he he sees a lot of enemies within you know what he calls, along with ah various conspiracy theorists, the the deep state.
00:46:01
Speaker
And i I don't doubt that he will go after them if he's in a position where he can do so. Well, Hugh, this has been a wonderful interview. um I've loved your answers to my questions. My yeah my last question for you here before we wrap up is, um what are you hoping that readers take away from your book?
Takeaways from Wilford's Book
00:46:21
Speaker
um Well, I hope they and enjoy reading it. i try to make it by, is it because it's a sort of it's a group biography, you know I always find that an engaging way of writing history is by putting personalities kind of front and front and center. and and you know I think youre a huge human beings and emotions are a very important part of the CIS history. It's not just a kind of dull organizational history. so I hope they'll enjoy that. um I hope they'll they'll think about
00:46:51
Speaker
you know, the CIA and sort of a bigger historical terms, right, that they'll see it as as as part of of of a broader global ah history. And um I hope that also some of the, it's i'm not necessarily somebody who writes history to sort of to teach lessons, but nonetheless, I think there are some pretty clear lessons to take away from the history of the CIA. And um I think one of them is that really, you know,
00:47:20
Speaker
covert operations when they succeed, you know and and there's there's ah there' a long list of of ones that have not succeeded even in the short term, but even though in the ones that do succeed in the short term often have unanticipated long-term consequences.
00:47:36
Speaker
um it this you know Having said that, the CIA does have an important mission. you know all All modern ah democracies, um ah modern states, modern democracies in particular, need an effective intelligence intelligence services. and and And I hope that um that the CIA is you know allowed to focus on that mission going forward.
00:48:03
Speaker
Yeah. And Hugh, if people want to stay in touch with with your work, um are you on social media? How can people stay in touch with what you're doing? Oh, I'm afraid I don't have much of a social media presence.
00:48:18
Speaker
aha but Although my son, might who knows, we' see he's getting increasingly interested in tech, so he might he might should change that at some point in the future. um But I so i you know i do op-eds, I'm continuing to write and will publish more. so I think just just yeah keep keeping an eye out for future publications. yeah just Just search me out. I'm all over the internet. kind of it's it's one of the it's's It's one of the joys of writing about a subject like the CIA, but but but but also one of the kind of the costs is that
00:48:57
Speaker
is that you end up with a very big internet presence. as yeah probably Yeah, it's probably best actually that you don't have your your information quite so accessible out there. right Yeah, there's some crazy notes in here. I think you got a point there, AJ. Well, and Hugh Wilford, the CIA at Imperial History, ah go buy a copy, go check it out from your library. ah What a fascinating story you've got in here, Hugh. And ah again, thanks so much for your time today.
00:49:25
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me on. I've thoroughly enjoyed it, AJ.