Transcript
Speaker: In the first three years of our lives, our brains are the most active in language acquisition. Even from the moment we're born, we recognize the cadence of language, the lull, the pitch, the rhythm. We feel them all. Then we begin recognizing voices and even linking emotions with certain sounds. This sound produces a giggle. This one makes us sleepy.
Speaker: Then we graduate to language being ingrained in all of our interactions. It becomes second nature because it becomes the lens through which we understand the world. But there's another language that functions the same way. This one doesn't have a set timeframe for development. We might learn it as children or in our forties. What I'm talking about is the language of fear.
Speaker: It starts with a recognition of the feeling, uneasiness, distrust, scattered thoughts, sleeplessness, anxiety. Then those feelings can become associated with particular people or items, those who caused the fear, the items that are used for punishment, or even those we know can cause harm if they wanted. Eventually, for some, that fear, just like language, can become second nature.
Speaker: because it too can become a lens through which everything in their world is shaded. Just like there are more than 7 ,000 languages that exist in the world today, the language of fear can take all kinds of forms. There's the fear of physical harm. There's the fear of having our hearts broken. There's the fear of unseen sinister forces. There's the fear of never seeing a loved one again. There's a fear of never having answers.
Speaker: And each one of those fears buries deep in us, clinging to our hearts and to our thoughts sometimes and often in spite of the competing emotion of hope. You see, fear is a language that once learned and a fluency is developed, it's nearly impossible to unlearn.
Speaker: In our case this week, the language of fear is prevalent. There's a fear of people to come forward with information about the case because of repercussions they may face. And there's a fear that we may never know the truth of what happened to a sweet young girl who went missing from a New Jersey park in 2019. This is the case of Dulce Maria Alaves.
Speaker: Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
Speaker: We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families.
Speaker: With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week. Maggie, before we start our show this week, I actually have an update to give our sleuth hounds and one giant favor to ask them.
Speaker: So let's do the update first because it is multifaceted. So first I want to remind any and all of you who live in central Kentucky that Maggie and I will be hosting a free live show
Speaker: at the Hall Coffee Shop in Winchester on January 27th at 7pm. And that is just a few days after my birthday. So it would be a wonderful birthday gift to see all of your wonderful faces. And really, Winchester is conveniently located. It's like... It is.
Speaker: Two and a half hours from Pikeville. It's only like an hour and a half from Cincinnati.
Speaker: You all can make it work. I believe in you. And this will be a great birthday present for Allison. But if those dates don't work, we understand, but we are going to be working on a couple more free shows that they're in the works right now here in Kentucky in the coming months. So if the 27th doesn't work, hopefully one of these other dates will work for you.
Speaker: Yes, that's right. And the second update is to let you know about a couple of bonus episodes that will be posted on our stream here in the coming week or so. First, this episode that you are hearing today in English
Speaker: due to the nature of the case, and you'll hear about why here in just a minute, will also be released in Spanish because it is very important that those whose primary language is Spanish also hear and share the case and then potentially come forward with information. And the second bonus episode will be a full episode from a good friend of ours named Elise with her cat, Winston.
Speaker: who host the podcast True Crime Cat Lawyer. So you'll get a little taste of her show. And I honestly think of podcasts as doing such good work in terms of telling important stories. And I honestly feel that we really need to support one another. Yeah, not so much a competition, but a collaboration. Right.
Speaker: There are far too many cases that what Allison and I can cover in a given year is just not enough. So the more of us out there that are trying to keep these cases in the public eye, I think the better. Absolutely. So about every month or a month and a half,
Speaker: We will post a bonus episode, so it won't replace our weekly episodes, but a bonus episode from a podcasting friend of ours. And you might find a new podcast to add along with ours to your weekly rotation. OK, now the favor I have to ask of you actually concerns another new podcast. A past student of mine has just launched her own podcast, and I really want to help her get her feet off the ground.
Speaker: and get a network of support. Her show is called Live Outside the Bubble, and it's L -I -V, which is a shortened form of her name. And it is a podcast about, in her words, quote, practical and biblical tips on how to build your confidence in Christ to get outside of your comfort zone and well on your way to initiating and maintaining deeper, more meaningful connections, end quote.
Speaker: her first episode posted this past Sunday. So if her pod sounds like something that you or someone in your family would enjoy, then please go give her first episode a listen and give her a review because it would mean a lot to her and it would mean a lot to us.
Speaker: Now let's get into this episode, shall we? Let's do it. Okay. This episode this week is actually a listener suggestion that came from one of my previous students. That's awesome. I know she saw this case and she sent me an Instagram message and she was like, this would be a great case for you guys to cover. And I thought it's perfect.
Speaker: We love listener suggestions. We do. So here we are. So for our episode this week, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dulce's mother, Noema. And our case this week is set in a town called Bridgeston, which is in southern New Jersey. It's about an hour away from Atlantic City and also about an hour away from Philadelphia.
Speaker: I thought you were going to say for a second Bridgerton and I was like, yeah, Bridgerton close the town is roughly six and a half square miles with the population in 2019 when this case took place of around 24 ,000 people.
Speaker: And of those 24 ,000, nearly 50 % of the population is Hispanic. Wow. So now we know why you want to release it in Spanish. Exactly. Yeah. Hopefully now you understand the importance of releasing it in English. So, you know, all of our listeners can
Speaker: continue to share the story, but also in Spanish. So it was a nice day on Monday, September 16th, 2019, when young mother Noema Alaves Perez decided to take her eight -year -old sister as well as her two young children, five -year -old Dulce and three -year -old Manny to the park.
Speaker: that plan began with picking up Manny from her parents' house. So Noema was actually very young when she had her first child Dulce. She was only 14 at the time. And she was 16 when she had Manny. So both of her children were living with Noema's parents and Noema lived right close to them. Okay.
Speaker: In 2019, Noema was 19 and she was pregnant with her third child, Australia. Even though Noema was still young and her parents were caring for both Dulce and Manny, Noema tried to still be very involved in their lives. She told me that she would go to her parents' home after work during the week when she could and on weekends to spend time with the kids.
Speaker: And Noima was actively trying to get things in her life back on track. She had left the party scene. She was trying to disassociate from friends who had linked her in the past to that lifestyle that she was now trying to avoid. So she was making these changes for herself and for her kids. And side note,
Speaker: I am telling you, Noema lucked out in the child department because her kids are flipping beautiful. Look at this picture, Maggie, that Noema sent me of Dulce and Manny. Oh, they are so cute. I just want to pinch this little cheese. I'm telling you, Sleuth Hounds, I will share. Her hair though. I will share these pictures with you. Her children are beautiful. Yeah. They're beautiful.
Speaker: And Dulce lived up to her name, and her name means sweet. She loved to dress up as a Disney princess, to put on makeup, to dance around the room. Her favorite princess was Elsa from Frozen. And oh my gosh, she loved that movie Noema told me. She couldn't get enough of it.
Speaker: I feel like that movie had a grip on an entire generation of children. I think it did. On this particular day, Noema's mother Norma had called to see if Noema could meet the children when they got off the bus. Normally Norma did, so she was calling to see if Noema could be there instead. So Noema took Manny and she met Dulce who had just started kindergarten
Speaker: and her eight -year -old sister when they got off the bus. It was a super nice day that September 16th, so Noema asked the kids if they would like to go to the park. And there were actually two parks in town. There was a big one and then a smaller one, so she asked which one that they would like to go to, and of course Dulce shouted, the big park!
Speaker: Yeah, the bigger the better. So like they had many times before, Noema took them to the Bridgeston City Park. She loaded the three kids into her vehicle and they made a pit stop to buy some ice cream before their final destination of the park.
Speaker: And I feel like parks are so great for parents because it is a form of entertainment for your kids that they just don't get tired of. But then when you finally get them home, they're tired. Right. So then you can rest a little bit. Yeah. Video footage from a local gas station convenience store actually shows the four of them in the store purchasing ice cream.
Speaker: Dulce, sweet as always in her little yellow shirt with an elephant on it, black and white pants with flowers, and her little white dressy heeled sandals. I know. She was being, you could see it in the video footage, this fun big sister, and she was picking Manny up to carry him around the store as best as she could, but he's almost as big as she is.
Speaker: So it was super cute and the video shows Noema buying them ice cream treats and buying herself some lottery tickets. So once they had their fare they finally headed to the park arriving just after 4 p .m. Now to have you understand the setting Maggie, I truly need to describe this park to you because I feel like most of us picture a park
Speaker: as a smallish green space with a couple of swing sets, some slides, maybe a couple of benches and a picnic shelter. Heck, even a walking trail or monkey bars, if you want to get fancy. Yeah. However, that image would not even come close to what Bridgeton City Park looked like.
Speaker: This park was 1 ,100 acres. Wow, that's bigger than Central Park, is it not? It is, yes. To put that into perspective, Central Park in New York City is 843 acres.
Speaker: This park was 1 ,100 acres. It has ball fields, a splash pad area, basketball courts, playground equipment, of course, huge walking trails in this heavily wooded area, a river and a lake where you can fish or go kayaking. There's an amphitheater and even a zoo.
Speaker: Okay, I feel like park maybe isn't the best word to describe this. I think we need to come up with another word. Bridgeton Amusement City Park. Yeah. On this day, the kids were just going to play on some playground equipment on one side of the park that backed up to the local high school.
Speaker: So Noema pulled into the spot and she allowed Dulce and Manny to go ahead and get out of the car to play in the playground area immediately in front of where she was parked. They would be about 30 yards away. That's about 27 and a half meters for international listeners or about 90 feet away.
Speaker: And so she did have a vantage point where she could see quite a bit of the play area, but she did remain in the car with her sister while her sister was finishing some homework and Noeima was scratching off her lottery tickets. And she was looking up every few minutes to ensure that she still saw Dulce and Manny.
Speaker: Noema had only been looking down for a few minutes, five to 10 minutes, she said, at the tickets. That's a long time, though. Well, yeah, a lot can happen in that time. Yeah. So she was looking down, scratching the lottery tickets, helping her sister with the work. And when she looked up, she found that she could no longer see Dulce nor Manny. This was around 4 .20 p .m.
Speaker: Figuring that they must have gone to the swing set, which was situated just behind this slight mound and just out of eyesight, Noema got out of the car to go find them. When she turned the corner towards the swings, however, she only saw Manny. Manny's ice cream lay on the ground at his feet and he was crying.
Speaker: And that's when that 90 feet seems much longer than what it did at first. You know what I mean? And at first Noema didn't know if Manny was crying because his ice cream was on the ground or something else. But looking all around and not seeing Dulce, Noema asked her son where his sister was and Manny, who was three, was non -verbal.
Speaker: So he was crying harder. She said he was trying to say Dulce's name and he pointed towards some maintenance buildings near the high school. At that, Noema first assumed that maybe Dulce was playing a game of hide and seek or something, or maybe she had accidentally knocked Manny's ice cream, you know, out of his hand and was afraid to get in trouble. So she had run. So Noema began yelling Dulce's name.
Speaker: No response. Noema looked around those service buildings and saw no sign of her daughter. Well, now she began to panic. Where was Dulce? Was she still hiding? Had someone taken her? She knew that Dulce would not have gone willingly with a stranger.
Speaker: That's when Noema spotted a crowd of teenagers, including some teenage girls on the basketball court near the high school, and she approached them, asking if they had seen her daughter or noticed anything out of the ordinary. They mentioned that they had seen a little girl running towards those same buildings that Manny had pointed toward, but they hadn't noticed much else.
Speaker: They had seen a black man by himself near the area. And they had also seen a Hispanic man also in the area around that same time. And listen, if she had asked teenage boys, no offense. Boys are great. They would not have seen all of that. Probably. Girls are just way more perceptive. Well, unless it's Rodney.
Speaker: He's super observant, and I'm the oblivious one. I do notice people, though, just not things. Right. Well, then you just help each other. Right. Yeah, we work together. So not knowing what else to do, Noema initially called her brother to come to the park with his dog. She was hoping that he could help her find Dulce, and she said that she didn't want to be alone.
Speaker: That's what she told me in our interview. Plus, Noema had often brought her brother's dog to the park with her and the kids on their previous trips. But this time, since they had planned on going out to eat afterward, she had decided that it wouldn't be a good idea to bring the dog.
Speaker: Her brother came immediately to help, but neither of them could find Dulce nor find any more information about where she might have gone than the information that Noema had already been able to gather. Okay. She needs to call the police now. Well, she did. That's when they realized that they were no closer to finding Dulce because her brother hadn't seen Dulce on his walk to the park.
Speaker: He couldn't find her with the dog. They searched together. They asked more people. They didn't get any more information. Noema called the police just before 5pm at 450 or 451. I saw two different reportings of the time. So less than an hour after they had arrived at the park and around 30 minutes after the realization that she couldn't see Dulce.
Speaker: Okay, so not too much time has passed. Right. So here is the audio from that 911 call. 911, where's your emergency? I can't find my daughter. Okay, when was the last time you seen her?
Speaker: We were here at the park and people said that somebody, probably somebody took her. Okay, how old is she? She's five years old. Okay, and what park are you at? Here in Bridgeton Park. Okay, where at in the Bridgeton Park are you? The one with the basketball court where high school is. Okay, so you're at the basketball courts behind the high school? Yes.
Speaker: Okay. And what was she seeing last wearing? She was wearing, um, um, give me a second. Did you play with them like on the dance in the weekend? I don't remember what clothes she was wearing, but she was wearing, I just remember her pants. She was wearing like a flowery pants and some heels, some white heels. Okay. Hi, ma 'am. Stand by. I'm going to turn you over to the police. Okay. And you said she was five, correct?
Speaker: Yes. All right. Hello, ma 'am. Hello. Hi, did you see which direction your child went? No, we were in the car. She came down with my son. They were running to the park, and then me and my sister, we came down. But when we got here at the park, she was in here. They said that my son was just crying with ice cream. Because somebody threw his ice cream in the floor, and my daughter just ran away.
Speaker: All right, you didn't see anyone else around there that she could possibly have went with? No, no, that I know. There's just some other people that they're here that said that they saw her running through some houses in the back. And they said that they saw two men. They saw a black guy. And they saw a Mexican man with two kids. Who's saying that they saw them?
Speaker: But there's people here in the basketball court that they saw her. They're saying that there's people there at the basketball court that they saw her running through some houses with two black males. She's light -skinned Spanish. What color top does she have on? I don't remember. Are you at the basketball court? Yes, I'm right here right now.
Speaker: She's, that's a firm. She says that she's at the basketball court. And do you have your son with you or is your son? No, I have my son with me. They say he was crying when he found him. He was just standing there crying. Oh, he was standing there crying. So who you said that the black males took his ice cream? No, they threw it in the floor. They took his ice cream and threw it on the floor and then they left with your daughter.
Speaker: Probably, because I didn't saw it. When we came in and looked for her, we were looking everywhere for her and we couldn't find them. She said that her son was at the basketball court with her daughter, that there was two black males that took her son's ice cream and threw it on the ground and left with her daughter. Okay, well, we have the officers. She's at the basketball court on Mayor Aiken. Are you on Mayor Aiken?
Speaker: Um, I already have an officer here, okay All right, we'll speak with the police ma 'am. Okay, okay Okay, I feel like there's so much That was so frustrating about that so who cares about the little boys ice cream Who cares? I know it's on the ground also
Speaker: Well, I'm sure when you're really overwhelmed, like the color of your kid's shirt is gonna be the last thing. Right. She did remember what pants she had on. She did remember what shoes she had on. You know what I mean?
Speaker: So I have no more issues with the police station lady than I did with the mom. Right. Well, the biggest thing, and I don't know if you caught this or if our sleuthounds caught it when listening to it, but Nueva's description of the men that witnesses told her that they were being changed. Yes! It's not two black men. Right. Did they? Yes. Did they not? No one was listening. It was like no one was listening. We weren't active listening in this phone call.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because Noema clearly says it's one black man and one Mexican man. That's how she says it. Yeah. And then she said two black men.
Speaker: Right. And I do want to also point out that Nueva didn't catch the mistake immediately and correct it. And that communication mistake could have happened for a couple of reasons. Number one, I cannot even imagine the mental anguish and turmoil that Nueva felt in that moment and was likely thinking only of her daughter and that concern alone made her miss the mistake. Or number two,
Speaker: Since Noema feels most comfortable speaking in Spanish rather than English, she may not have even caught the switch.
Speaker: Yeah, and like you said, your mind is not really focused on that. Your mind is focused on your daughter. Right. Now, I did say law enforcement did respond swiftly to her call, as you heard the officer had already arrived before she even got off the phone with the dispatcher. And more than 30 officers made up the search party looking for Dulce in the nearby wooded area of the park and even more on the lookout for the potential perpetrators.
Speaker: And was it in a neighborhood, like houses that they think she was running out between or like, I was picturing like storage buildings. Well, and that is another case right there, even though, because in the 911 call, Noema does say houses, but she meant those maintenance buildings. So again, it's just the language barrier. Like a language barrier.
Speaker: So the search on that first day lasted until 1 a .m. looking for any sign of Dulce in the park. Meanwhile, Nueva was at the police department being interviewed until nearly midnight to try to gather any and all information that could aid in their search for Dulce. Eventually, that search grew to hundreds of officers as well as federal agents.
Speaker: Due to the size and the terrain of the park, law enforcement also brought in several canine units. They drained a nearby waterway and they used drones equipped with infrared technology to search the 1100 acre park from the sky. Right, because they have a lot to search. Yes, a very wide area. Unfortunately, they found nothing in their search. In a brilliant move,
Speaker: Police even set up an ice cream truck to play its familiar song, hoping that if Dulce were just scared and hiding somewhere, that the music would bring her out. That is a really ingenious idea. But she never appeared.
Speaker: On the streets, the Bridgerton Police, joined fairly early in the investigation by the FBI, New Jersey State Police, and the Cumberland County Prosecutor's Office, began what would grow into a list of hundreds of interviews, including registered sex offenders in the area, family members,
Speaker: students and teacher from the high school who may have seen something or have any clue as to who might have a motive to take Dulce. They're just seeking any information. Were there any security cameras around the high school? There were some security cameras. Those, again, didn't necessarily catch, well, it didn't catch any sort of, say, abduction or anything like that. But there's a lot of the park that is not covered.
Speaker: by security cameras also. Law enforcement interviewed other people in the park, owners of vehicles that had been seen on those cameras entering and exiting the park during the timeframe of when Dulce arrived to when she disappeared. One source said that there were security cameras on that main entrance and exit from the park, and that nearly 400 vehicles had entered, exited, or passed in that
Speaker: short timeframe. And that law enforcement were able to identify and interview the owners of roughly 80 % of those vehicles. That's pretty good. That's a good number. The case was initially classified as a missing child investigation though, which is why the primary efforts were centered on searching the park itself.
Speaker: But after other reports from witnesses potentially linked a Hispanic man between five foot six and five foot eight, slim build, no facial hair, acne, and wearing orange sneakers, red pants, and a black shirt, linked that man to a red van with tinted windows and a sliding door.
Speaker: that the investigation was reclassified as an abduction and an Amber Alert was issued at 10 p .m. on September 17th. And she went missing on the 16th? Correct.
Speaker: around 420. So you might be wondering why the delay in issuing an Amber Alert, and it's because to issue an Amber Alert, there must be some indication or evidence to point toward an abduction having taken place. And since they didn't get the detail about the van until that day, and because no one had actually witnessed an abduction take place,
Speaker: That explains the delay. And the Amber Alert is actually where the public hear that first description of the potential perpetrator. In the years after those initial reports, though, law enforcement have now urged potential witnesses not to get married to the idea of a red van in connection with the perpetrator.
Speaker: since that detail came from, this is what sources say, a witness of quote, tender years, end quote, which means that red van was seen by a child. I don't know if that was Manny who somehow indicated, even though he was nonverbal, somehow indicated a red van or another child in the part.
Speaker: By the 19th, so three days after Dulce disappeared, there was a $20 ,000 reward for information about Dulce that grew to $25 ,000 by the 20th and to $35 ,000 by the 21st. On September 24th, 2019, hoping to boost the tips coming in concerning the case and feeling this was a case that could be solved,
Speaker: Dulce was included on the FBI's most wanted missing persons list. And so still at this point, we think she has just been kidnapped. We don't think anything has happened to her. Correct. Or are they just not saying? And even today in the news reports, law enforcement say they're fairly confident that
Speaker: Dulce is still alive and well. Now, why they say that, I don't know, but they still maintain that. Interesting. Yeah, the audio from the 911 call was publicly released on October 3rd. And I honestly don't know. Why? Yeah, I don't know
Speaker: Why? Because I feel like there are so many cases that we've covered where there have been 911 calls and some of them have been released, but most of them have not. So I don't know.
Speaker: like I don't know why some of them that aren't released until much later you're like why didn't they release this sooner right especially some of the ones that we've covered and this one why would they release it at all it's not any information that we didn't already know right so I feel like all that's gonna do is like
Speaker: put her, shed a bad light on her as a mom. And it did, in a lot of ways, have that result. And so I don't know if their goal was for maybe the potential perpetrator to hear the description from the witnesses that Noema found and then feel like law enforcement's on the right track and they need to go ahead and turn themselves in or whatever. Because I don't know what other reason they may have had
Speaker: But releasing the audio did help to keep Dulce's case in the public eye and the reward actually grew to $52 ,000 by October 9th. About a month after Dulce's disappearance on October 15th, 2019, law enforcement released a sketch to the public.
Speaker: This sketch is purportedly of someone else who was seen in the area around the time Dulce went missing. It was of a Hispanic man around five foot seven with a slender build who had on a white t -shirt, blue jeans, a white baseball cap, and had acne on his face. So like the man with the red van. Right.
Speaker: So police released this sketch, not as a potential perpetrator, but saying it was as someone who may have been a potential witness to the abduction. And like you just said, despite that fact, some people have noticed the similarities between the quote unquote potential witness and the description given of the Hispanic man seen as a potential perpetrator. So here is that sketch, Maggie.
Speaker: And, Sleuth Hounds, I'll release it to you with the pictures of Dulce that Noema had shared with me, as well as this witness sketch when I post on social media. I mean, I feel like he looks like the majority of... Right, a regular person. Despite law enforcement making every attempt to keep the case in the public eye, it was plagued from the beginning with one huge issue.
Speaker: that created that fear that I discussed in the introduction to the episode. It is related to what happened when police interviewed Noema's boyfriend at the time, Edgar. Edgar had actually been working at a job site an hour away in Philadelphia on the day that Dulce disappeared. But when he was brought in for questioning in Dulce's case, as many, many family members were to try to get details,
Speaker: he was detained and ICE, the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, got involved. Oh yeah, so no one's going to come forward now. Exactly. As a result of that detainment and ICE's involvement, even though Edgar was later released on the 19th, much like the Claudia Lawrence case from a couple of weeks ago, the damage had already been done.
Speaker: Okay. And honestly, what's the more important, what's the more pressing issue there? Right. Exactly. The state of a girl or detaining this hardworking man who has a job and is like,
Speaker: doing his best. What's the more pressing issue there? Right. And as if anyone who were not here legally wouldn't have already been hesitant to come forward with information, now there was a serious lack of trust with law enforcement and a strong belief
Speaker: that the police would make a report to ICE if they came forward with information. In an effort to convince witnesses of their safety from this issue, the New Jersey Attorney General reminded the public of the Immigrant Trust Directive. It's a policy placing limits on the types of questions that local and state law enforcement are allowed to ask.
Speaker: in investigations like these. So they could not ask if they were legally here or illegally here. Now, again, whether they believe that it won't happen is another story, but it is actually illegal for them to ask about immigration status in cases like Dulce's when it doesn't pertain to the investigation.
Speaker: As I just said, once fear is ingrained, its grasp is a hard one to break. And once trust is broken, it's nearly impossible to earn back. You know, that makes me so sad because I just think how different her case could have been if something like that didn't happen. And again, like what's the most important thing here to me, the most important thing is we're finding this child. Right.
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Speaker: There have only been a few more developments since 2019, Maggie. In 2020, there was a false claim that was spread, you guessed it, on social media, claiming that Dulce had been found deceased. This claim had zero validity. And what do people get from this? I do not know. I do not know.
Speaker: Also, in February 2020, several leads came in related to Dulce's case from Austin Town, Ohio. The first of several anonymous letters, a two -page letter arrived at the Austin Town Library.
Speaker: It was handwritten, though nearly illegible, but they could make out that it mentioned Dulce. And there were several other little bits of information that they could make out. However, information that was mentioned in the letter, in the parts that were legible, were all details that could have been googled about the case. So nothing that... So again, probably someone doing a sick joke. Yeah. A second anonymous note was a postcard
Speaker: addressed to the, quote, Manager Hollywood Gaming, end quote, at the Mahoning Valley Racecourse. Okay. It too was handwritten, the same as the first letter. This one mentioned details not found in the papers. In fact, it stated, quote, 76 truck stop, dead end street, entrance woods. Please look.
Speaker: And you know the wording on that makes me think that it's not a native English speaker that wrote that? Mm -hmm. Because it just sounds like someone who knows bits and pieces of English. Mm -hmm. Well, police extensively searched the area that was mentioned on the postcard, but nothing was located. A third letter was delivered to an Austin Town ice cream parlor.
Speaker: The store had been closed at the time that the letter was sent, so the owner didn't check the mail regularly. And as a result, this letter was found about a week after the other two. On this card, unlike the other two, the zip code was legible. It was the zip code from Culiacan, Mexico, which you may notice of
Speaker: you know, having been in the news recently. But it was also the town where Dulce's birth father was residing. Despite the zip code though, authorities don't believe that the card and the other correspondents had actually traveled that far. The final letter was a bit more off -putting than the previous ones.
Speaker: It was sent to Jackie Rodriguez, a woman who would eventually serve as the family spokesperson. Hers, the letter she received, was seven pages long. It was in the same handwriting as the others, but it rambled on about things like Alaska, 1776, the Civil War, Mexico, and kids' homes orphanage.
Speaker: Not a single word about Dulce. And this one was postmarked from Cleveland, Ohio. So random. But the off -putting part was that the letter was delivered to Rodriguez's post office box without her address written on it.
Speaker: Hmm. So did someone just stop by her house or go to the post office and say, can you put this in her box? Right. I think it's the latter. It really makes it seem as though someone dropped it off at her post office location and just said, Hey, can you put this in Ms. Rodriguez's box? Because how else would it have possibly gotten to her with no address listed? It couldn't have come from Cleveland.
Speaker: Right, and that's weird. And do they do that? You can just take a letter and say, put this in so -and -so's box? I don't think so, but I don't know. Then in 2021, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children released two separate age progression photos of Dulce as a seven -year -old, hoping that the updated photo might make her more recognizable two years later because you do change a lot between five and seven.
Speaker: However, Noema and her mother, Norma Perez, both claim that these photos don't look like how they imagine Dulce would look now. And here are the two age progression photos, Maggie. Again, Sleuthhounds, I will share those with you. And I think I'll agree. While both these images of little girls, they're beautiful, just like Dulce. I'm not sure that Dulce would look like either of these either.
Speaker: Okay. I'm going to go back to the first picture that you posted. Yeah. I think they had the face shape wrong on both of them. I mean, this little, these little girls are cute that are in these age progression photos, but I just, there's something that's not right about them to be Dulce. And as always Maggie, even though we do not have answers in this case, we do have theories concerning what may have happened to Dulce.
Speaker: So theory one is an accident. As I mentioned earlier, this park was expansive. It included a spillway, a lake. It was close to a river. Additionally, there is a wooded area with expansive hiking trails in which a child could have easily gotten lost. And while we don't have evidence to prove this theory,
Speaker: We also don't have evidence to disprove it. So could Dulce have wandered off, maybe gotten too close to the water and fallen in? Maybe she could have gotten hurt of her own accord while playing? Could she have gotten lost in the woods and turned around on one of those trails? Did they like
Speaker: search the lake for anything. I did read that they drained a waterway but I don't know what body of water was drained. I don't know if they drained all of the bodies of water. But you know I go back to earlier when they were talking about the entrance to the park and the 400 cars went by and just that short amount of time
Speaker: I feel like if that many cars went by, then this park probably has a lot of people there on the trails, at the zoo, at the water pad or whatever. So I would think if she was just wondering on her own that she would have ran into someone at some point. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's my only counter argument too has to do with the busyness of the parks because I think you're right. I think that surely somebody would have seen her.
Speaker: and reported her, you know, reported that information to authorities had they seen a girl wandering around. Theory two, Dulce's mother, Noema, being involved in Dulce's disappearance.
Speaker: Noema has faced a lot of criticism during the past three years. She was criticized for the 911 call, both for not remembering what Dulce was wearing, for not pushing police to hurry or asking questions in the call. She was also criticized for saying that Dulce had, quote unquote, probably been abducted.
Speaker: But again, she has the language barrier, I'm sure, which played a part in that she was probably confused. She's having to concentrate on understanding a language that's not her primary language. So I'm sure that was difficult to do. Right. And she had those people say, well, I saw the black man and the Hispanic man and she was running through these buildings. So in her mind, she's probably like, oh, they're trying to tell me she got abducted. Right. But yeah, and she doesn't know for sure.
Speaker: Noemi also faced criticism of her being less emotional than many people felt that she should have been. And she was even criticized, Maggie, for eating pizza on the day of the search in the park on the 17th. Never mind the fact that she hadn't eaten since the day before when Dulce disappeared and that she was pregnant.
Speaker: and people cope and process things differently. Not everyone is gonna have the same reactions that I would have or that you would have. So I just feel like that's a very harsh judgment to make when you're not in that situation. There were even sadly racist comments made about her mothering. People accused her of selling
Speaker: Dulce. And let's just be 100 % honest here. How many white women do you think would ever be accused of selling their child? Exactly. And I do not understand why we automatically go to that. Like you said, that would not even be mentioned if this was a child that had gone missing. That wouldn't have even been said. No.
Speaker: I don't think anybody would have been like, oh, maybe she sold her child. You know what I mean? And so I feel like we've got to recognize how racist some of these criticisms are. So many people accuse Noema of either having something to do with Dulce's disappearance
Speaker: or even of knowing more than what she was letting on. And this belief was only solidified when Jackie Rodriguez, the family spokesperson, said of Noema on the Dr. Phil show, when Dr. Phil asked, do you think she, meaning Noema, may know more about what took place than she's telling? And Rodriguez said, yes.
Speaker: Hold on, hold on. This is the family spokesperson as in the family, the person who's communicating for the family? Correct. And she said this on a national television show? Yes, she did. Asked why, she responded, quote, she seems too calm. I feel like she knows that the child is okay. She's missing her, but I feel like she knows that the child is okay, end quote.
Speaker: Okay. So maybe that's how she took it. Like, do you think, not the way I'm taking it, like, do you think she knows more details about what happened to the baby? Maybe she took it as, do you think she knows more? And she's like, yes, she knows the baby is okay. Right. But like, I don't, I'm trying to rationalize this in my mind. Yeah. Perhaps even more damaging was Dr. Phil's comments himself.
Speaker: that he has been doing this work, quote, for 45 years. And I've never worked with a mother who has been as emotionally flat about a missing child as Noema, end quote.
Speaker: Sometimes I just think some comments are better left unsaid. Well, and especially if they're going to potentially damage an investigation for a missing child. Right. And let's look at knowing the situation from a different perspective. So first, like you said, Maggie, there is no guidebook on how one should or should not react in a situation like this. We all think we know how we would react. We don't.
Speaker: And Noema has always been forthcoming with the police and aided them in their investigation at every turn. For example, they still, even as recently as February of 2022, came to Noema and said, hey, we need your cell phone again because we want to look back through it to see if we missed anything.
Speaker: and they took it from her and they had it for a day and then they gave it back. If Noema had something to hide, then I feel like she would have withheld her phone. Yeah. You know, she wouldn't have just been like, okay, here. Okay, here you go. And as far as any claim that Noema sold her child, let's not forget the fact that she had actually asked the kids, don't say specifically, which park she wanted to go to.
Speaker: So the choice of the park was spontaneous and not planned. So if this were all some grand scheme, then how does that fit?
Speaker: The biggest criticisms waged against Noema in an attempt to prove her involvement has been those who say she isn't emotional enough or who criticize particular words that she has chosen to use. Again, Spanish is her first language, not English. So there's going to be some issues there.
Speaker: And if this was a man, a daddy, we would not be saying, well, he's not emotional enough. Right. Because she's a woman. And obviously, like you said, it is much easier for Noema to be expressive and emotional in her native language. I, for one,
Speaker: Having interviewed Nueva with my friend Emily as the translator because I wanted to make sure that I was able to offer my interview with her in Spanish in a language that she felt comfortable, I can promise you that Nueva was still three years later extremely emotional
Speaker: in our interview when recalling memories of Dulce. And she repeatedly cried throughout our interview when she was recalling how she herself still cries anytime she watches Frozen because she thinks about Dulce. And she thinks about the regret that she feels and not getting out of the car with them that day. I can promise you,
Speaker: All this criticism of her being not emotional, those are interviews that she conducted in English. In our interview in Spanish, it was the opposite. That need to translate thoughts and emotions into a second language, it can also lead to misunderstandings or use of a wrong word. So any criticism of the words she used, again, let's remember English is her second language.
Speaker: And as for criticism of her eating, that's ridiculous. Yeah. Her not remembering, exactly. Her not remembering what Dulce is wearing, the color of her top, again, could be due to emotional stress that she was under. And the racist comments about her mothering, well, those aren't even worth my breath in repeating. And they're abhorrent. Right. It's, it's abhorrent that there are people out there who want to criticize a whole culture.
Speaker: It's disgusting. In Matt Gray's article titled Where is Dulce Alaves? Family frozen in time three years into New Jersey's biggest mysteries. He asked Noema about those racist comments. She responded, quote, I don't know why they why people would say such things about me and about my race or pinpointing where I'm from. This can happen to any person of any color.
Speaker: They make me feel so bad. They made me feel as though I really was that person they said I was. But in reality, I know I'm not." End quote. And you know what is sad? She is dealing with the disappearance of her daughter. She is dealing with
Speaker: criticism from the public. And now she's dealing with racist comments that make her feel less of a person. Can we just be empathetic and realize she's in a hard situation? Right. And maybe if we can't offer helpful advice or encouraging words or practice empathy, then we just probably need to keep her mouth shut. Right.
Speaker: And, you know, I'll admit to you, despite my personal feelings about the matter, which I'm sure are clear based on, you know, my passion about, you know, defending her, I did ask Noema what she has to say to those people like Jackie Rodriguez or others who believe that she has information pertaining to her daughter's disappearance.
Speaker: And to that question, she responded that she doesn't know everything that people are saying about her, but she said, I know I'm telling the truth. Theory number three is Dulce's birth father, Edgar Perez. Dulce didn't really have a close relationship with her father. In fact, when Noema first told him that she was pregnant, he didn't believe that Dulce was his.
Speaker: However, as Dulce grew, she began to look more and more like him. So he did eventually claim her and spent some time visiting with her. And it's rumored that he told Noema that he would fight her for custody of Dulce. But there's no paperwork nor reports to support the idea that he ever did.
Speaker: So did he always live in Mexico or did he live there like after she was born? About a year before Dulce's disappearance. So he was around in her life until she was about four. About a year before Dulce's disappearance, Perez had been deported back to Mexico, to that town, the Culiacan, which is where one of the anonymous notes listed as the mailing zip code.
Speaker: So thinking perhaps that he or someone he knew had taken Dulce with a plan to get her to Mexico, right, to be reunited with her father, Perez was looked into as a suspect. In April of 2021, a YouTube video surfaced of a man claiming to be Edgar Perez. In the video, there are pictures of Dulce with music playing in the background.
Speaker: And in one part of the video, you can hear a man speak. The man in the video claims that he had nothing to do with what happened to Dulce and states, quote, I don't know where she is. Just like everyone, I want to know where she is, end quote.
Speaker: Some skeptics feel that the girl in the video and those pictures actually looks older than the five -year -old Dulce who disappeared in 2019, sparking rumors that Dulce is indeed with her father. However, he has been located by the FBI, he has been interviewed, and he has never been named a suspect due to his continued cooperation with authorities.
Speaker: I mean, I don't know this man, obviously. And I'm sure when Anthony and I have kids, some of my views will change, right? Because I don't know that level of love or that level parent to child relationship right now. You know what I mean? But I don't know how easy it would be for one to orchestrate
Speaker: Right. A kidnapping of your child and get them to another country. Especially from New Jersey, like far north. Right. All the way down to Mexico. And are we driving? Are we flying? Because I feel like if we're flying, then they're definitely going to be looking for her. Right. You know, airport security because she's listed on that FBI's list. Mm hmm. I feel like that'd be very hard. It would be, I think.
Speaker: Theory four is that Dulce was taken by a stranger. FBI special agent Daniel Garabrant told David Chang of NBC New York, quote, the offender that took Dulce was likely there for a period of time. It was a crime of opportunity. They were looking for a child, maybe their age or gender, end quote.
Speaker: There was construction going on in the park at the time, and it was an extremely busy park. So it is plausible, this stranger theory.
Speaker: Plus, as I mentioned with the accident theory, with the walking trails, there were many veins going in different directions around the park where a child could have been taken without onlookers noticing if they were immediately taken into the foliage, right? Like if you grab a child and immediately go into the wooded area. Because recall,
Speaker: to understand the busyness that between three and six, there were roughly 400 vehicles in a round park. So that is a lot of people to work through, a lot of potential perpetrators. When Noema appeared on the Dr. Phil show, he actually pressed her to actually name someone who could have taken Dulce. I feel like that's a little bit uncalled for.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. He says, you know, somebody, you have to know somebody, you know, who could have taken her. That's like how we get the false confessions. Right. You feel cornered. Uh -huh. So when pressured, Noema mentioned a man, she didn't name his name, but she said there was a man who was romantically interested in her
Speaker: whom she had rejected and she and Dulce had run into him about a week before Dulce disappeared. But like you said, Maggie, to play devil's advocate, I feel like we have to keep in mind that this suggestion of a perpetrator was not one that was freely given. Right. She had to like really think about it. She had to dig deep. Exactly. Yeah. This is somebody mentioned only when she was pressured to like name somebody.
Speaker: And this is all she's able to come up with. My other problem with this theory is that Dulce was shy, and Noema had taught her to scream if a stranger got too close. No one heard a scream. Not Noema, not anyone on the basketball court, no one. In fact, no one had even noticed an abduction, as I mentioned before.
Speaker: So if a stranger were to have grabbed Dulce, she would have screamed, kicked, hit, caused a commotion. And then my follow up question, how did they get out of the park? Because at minimum, I feel like Dulce would have at least dropped her ice cream if there were some sort of
Speaker: Oh, yeah, like they were carrying or pulling or something. Because that's the last thing you're going to think is, oh, I better take care and not spill any ice cream or whatever. But her ice cream was also never found. OK, and her mom said that both she and Manny had ice cream when they went into the park from the car. And we know they did because of the surveillance video from the convenience store. Right, I just didn't know they'd eaten in the car or something like that.
Speaker: So the fact that the ice cream was never found makes it seem more likely that she went with someone she knew, which leads us to the final theory. Theory number five, Dulce was taken by someone familiar to her. This theory is centered around the fact that Dulce would have gone away without causing a scene if she were taken by someone she knew or recognized. And you know, as I said,
Speaker: If the person who took her were familiar to her, then everything would have seemed normal. And we've talked a lot on this show, Maggie, about the fact that you only really remember things that stand out as odd. Right. So somebody doesn't normally recall details about things that go smoothly or normally.
Speaker: You know, if I have a completely normal dad. A parent playing in the park with their kid. Exactly. You're walking down the trail with your potential dad. Right. And everything's gone. They're not going to really notice that. Exactly. So when faced with this theory, many people want to throw Noema's boyfriend Edgar's name into the mix. After all. He thought he was working. Well, he was. But they want to say, well, Dulce wasn't his biological child.
Speaker: But like you said, it was in Philadelphia an hour away. Yeah, right. And he has also never been named a suspect. But I want to throw something out there that I actually, myself, didn't think of. My child did. So to counter this theory, I want to throw in here the possibility that it may have been a stranger, yet without commotion.
Speaker: just like that someone were familiar with her. So again, I'll be completely transparent to say that I never would have thought about this theory on my own. But I was discussing this case with my now teenaged sleuth hound and she brought up this crazy. She brought up this theory Maggie. She said, mom, you're right that she may have been taught not to go with adults.
Speaker: But what about kids? So I said, what do you mean? And she said, well, kids are taught all the time to be leery of adult strangers who come up to them, who try to talk to them, ask them to help find a puppy. They offer candy or whatever.
Speaker: but children are never taught to run away from other children. She said, in fact, most parents push their children to play with other children on the playground. And even if they would run from adults,
Speaker: If another child were to be used to lure a kid away, they would go. So if another kid came up to Dulce and said, hey, do you want to play tag or do you want to play hide and seek or whatever, most children would go without a second thought. And I was thinking my child is brilliant because yeah, that is so true.
Speaker: And I wonder, like in cases of sex trafficking or abductions like this, how many times they use kids in those types of circumstances? I mean, I've read about them using other women that act like they need help in Walmart or whatever to lure in.
Speaker: innocent women. So now I'm wondering how many times they've used kids to get kids. Right. And there was one Hispanic man who was seen with two children. So could one of those children have been Dulce and the other child, you know, been one used to play with her and lure her away, leading Dulce to now trust the adult because she has already trusted the child.
Speaker: Right, because that's her friend's parents at that point. Of course, my brilliant sleuthound, you know, I'm training her right, Maggie. She asked me what the children looked like who were with the Hispanic man. And I said, well, I don't know, actually, because I didn't see their description anywhere in my research. And she was like, hmm, that's strange.
Speaker: And so, of course, I was like, why is this strange? And she said, don't you find it bizarre? She said that there was this descriptive explanation of what the man looked like, but no description of the children.
Speaker: She was like, I would have thought that whoever had seen the man and been close enough that they could see acne or they could see, you know, all these details. She said, wouldn't they have also seen the children at least enough to say what gender they were or their hair color or hairstyle or even clothing? But there's nothing. And I don't know what to do with that inconsistency. I just wanted to share it. I wonder if it's just one of those cases where
Speaker: again, kind of like how she was saying they would go with the child without thinking about it. People didn't even think to pay attention to kids because maybe, yeah, they would just assume they had no involvement. In general, in my interview with Noema, I asked her if her gut was leading her in one direction or another in terms of the theories and which she thought maybe had more validity.
Speaker: However, she was hesitant to discount any of them. Instead, she said, I don't know what happened to Dulce and I don't want to imagine. An interview by Matt Gray for new Jersey .com with Cumberland County prosecutor Jennifer Webb McRae at that, in that same article that I mentioned earlier,
Speaker: leads me to believe that they are close to being able to close this case, but they need a few more small pieces of the puzzle to fall into place before an arrest can be made. She told Gray, quote, any information, no matter how small or insignificant, might be the puzzle piece
Speaker: that leads us to identify the person responsible for Dulce's disappearance." And when she was asked to elaborate on new details that were discovered, she stated, quote, since we hope to charge and prosecute the person responsible for Dulce's disappearance, we cannot speak about many of the details of our investigation. However,
Speaker: opening the pool of potential suspects back up, Chief Gamari of the Bridgerton Police Department told ABC 6 in September of last year that no one has been ruled out as a person of interest. So with all of that, what are your thoughts, Maggie? Okay, I know like 30 minutes ago, I was like, why are we so focused on this little boy's ice cream? Who cares?
Speaker: But now I'm wondering if that might be a little bit more significant, you know? Would a stranger be more likely because the people on the basketball court said,
Speaker: right, that someone knocked the ice cream out of his hand. That was in her 911 call. It was in her 911 call, yeah. So I'm wondering, like, would a stranger do that, you know, as just one more act of being really mean? Or would her potential family member or someone she knew be more likely to do that? Right. But then I'm now wondering, like, why did they only take... Dulce? Dulce, and not Manny.
Speaker: if it was a stranger or they were looking for a child, well, there's two children, so why wouldn't you take both? And so then that kind of makes me agree with what your little sleuth hound said. Maybe a kid came up and tried to get them both to play and Manny's, it's not game for it. And when he doesn't go, like the kid knocks the ice cream out of his hand. I mean, it could be.
Speaker: I know, and because you would think if it's an adult who's involved in this, then knocking ice cream out of a kid's hand and him crying only draws attention. More attention, yeah. And that's not what you would want. Without evidence to prove the contrary, law enforcement still hold out hope that Dulce is alive somewhere.
Speaker: but it's the waiting over the course of the past few years that plays on the family's deepest fears. Dulce's grandmother, Norma Perez, told Rudy Chinchilla of NBC Philadelphia, quote, ever since Dulce Maria disappeared, every day has been very difficult because every day I wait for someone to say where my granddaughter is, end quote.
Speaker: What Dulce's mother, Noema, holds onto is that her daughter, Estrella, reminds her so much of Dulce, dressing up in princess dresses and putting on makeup. Even though Dulce can never be replaced and will never be forgotten, Estrella provides a glimpse into the life that Dulce may have been living if she were still with her family. It's a bittersweet likeness that provides both joy in the similarity and pain,
Speaker: in that their family is not complete. And the fear is still a sometimes insurmountable obstacle. If her kids ask something as innocent as whether they can go play in a park, Noema's mind starts racing, worrying that another of her three other children will be taken.
Speaker: But even if her fears want to guide her thoughts into those dark recesses of possibilities that don't end in a happy reunion, the best she can do is to fight daily against those fears and show that hope and love can be more powerful.
Speaker: What that requires, though, is for those with information to come forward, and the police as well as family members do believe that there are people who have information that they have yet to share concerning what happened to Dulce that September day in 2019. I attempted several times to reach Chief Gamari for a comment and left messages, but didn't receive a call back.
Speaker: But I do know that law enforcement continue to argue that they do not care about the immigration status of those who come forward. They just want to be able to locate Dulce and bring her back home. That hope they cling to so tightly.
Speaker: was tangible in the silent, candlelit walk held for Dulce in 2021. Organizer Anna Donnelly told Dan Alexander from 92 .7 WOBM, quote, we are lighting the way for Dulce to come home, end quote. That desire is the ache and the hearts of all who knew Dulce. In my interview with Noema, she pleaded with those who have the information.
Speaker: I will tell you the translation before playing her plea. She said, quote, I'm asking people please that know something or have information about my daughter, or if anyone knows or has tips about where she could have gone, that you please speak, that you go to the police or that you leave a letter or I don't know so that they can find my little girl that she can come back home safe with us.
Speaker: because truly we feel like this is a nightmare that we'll never wake up from. Please, I hope that you speak out. Here is Noema in her words.
Speaker: Anyone with information is asked to call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children at 1 -800 -THELOST. That's 1 -800 -843 -5678.
Speaker: or you can call the FBI at 1 -800 -225 -5324 or the Bridgerton Police Department at 1 -856 -451 -0033. If you speak Spanish, you can call 856 -207 -2732.
Speaker: And if you'd feel more comfortable leaving an anonymous tip, those can be submitted online to the Cumberland County Prosecutor's Office. Just go to www .njccpo .org forward slash tips. There is a $75 ,000 reward offered in this case. And don't say, if you are out there, your mother has the following message for you.
Speaker: Dulce, I want you to know that I love you and that we won't rest until you're home with us. Don't be afraid. I know that she doesn't like to be with other people or go anywhere with anyone who isn't me or my mom. We know God is taking care of her and that we're going to find her and that she's going to return home to be with us. I will end
Speaker: with that message from Noema to Dulce.
Speaker: Okay.
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Speaker: I feel like we made our own little joke. We do want to send out some love to Drea who left us such a sweet note. It said, quote, I love you guys. You are so great. You balance each other out perfectly, end quote. And we really do, I feel like. I think we do.
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Speaker: love this podcast. It is so refreshing to hear girls talking about true crime. I literally have found myself laughing out loud at some of the things they say and do. I also really love how they do not swear.
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