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E070: Karlie Guse
1.8k Plays5 years ago
Stories vary. Accusations fly. Rumors abound. Blame is viciously spread. Could Karlie Guse’s disappearance have been prevented?
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Transcript
Inspiration and Podcasting Advice
00:00:00
Speaker
Sleuthounds, have you ever considered creating your own podcast? Have you been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own. Whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast, or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are,
00:00:21
Speaker
When Maggie and I first decided to start our podcast, we knew absolutely nothing about what podcasting would entail.
Why Buzzsprout?
00:00:28
Speaker
But when we found that the platform Buzzsprout was one for which we didn't need any special equipment, just a computer microphone, some quiet space, and each other, we knew that this was the way to go. It is intuitive to use, fun to play around with, and so helpful in getting analytical data about our number of downloads to track trends
00:00:49
Speaker
and from where our listeners hail. Best yet, Buzzsprout is affordable, even by our teacher salary standards. Buzzsprout will get your podcasts listed on every major podcasting platform. So what are you waiting for? Fulfill that dream of yours and start today.
00:01:07
Speaker
If you use our Coffee and Cases referral code, 709-643, linked on Facebook and on our show notes, not only will you help support our show, but you will receive a $20 Amazon gift card after your second month on a paid plan. It's that easy. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Now,
00:01:35
Speaker
It's time for the world to hear what you have to say.
Introducing Carly Lane-Gusay's Case
00:01:39
Speaker
For many in America, if I asked them to name a typical American diner with burgers, fries, and shakes, they would likely come up with the name of a diner found in nearly every state, Flo's Diner.
00:01:52
Speaker
So too, in the town at the center of our case, this week is a Flows Diner, making it seem like the typical American town. But this small town of Shalfand Valley, California has seen something else typical. Not just in America, but across the globe. Pain.
00:02:13
Speaker
Shalfant Valley is a town of only roughly 650 people, located in Mono County. If you want much excitement outside of a few businesses in its quaint streets, you'll have to travel south on the two-lane highway to Bishop, California, with a population of around 3,700, still small by most standards, but a bustling metropolis compared to that of Shalfant.
00:02:38
Speaker
Both cities are located in the middle of California lengthwise and near Nevada on the eastern border, nestled halfway between Yosemite to the northwest and Death Valley to the southeast. The towns are known for their scenery and for their outdoor activities, hunting, fishing, and hiking. Head straight north and you're in the desert.
00:03:03
Speaker
Deserts so rarely traveled that you might find remnants of civilizations who left the area by choice or by force centuries ago. It was in that town of Shalfand, California on October 13th, 2018, that a call came in to the Mono County Sheriff's Office of a missing 16-year-old girl.
00:03:27
Speaker
The first post by the sheriff's office alerted the small community, asking for their assistance in locating a Caucasian female, age 16, 5 foot 7 inches tall, 110 pounds, with dark blonde hair and blue eyes, who may be disoriented.
00:03:47
Speaker
By 7 a.m. the next morning, October 14, law enforcement brought in scent dogs, helicopters, and ATVs to aid in the search. When they hadn't found the young girl by October 16, Mono County Sheriff's Office was aided by Inyo County Sheriff's Office, the California Highway Patrol, California Fish and Wildlife,
00:04:09
Speaker
the California National Guard, the U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, Caltrans, Bishop Police Department, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, the South Lake Tahoe Police Department, El Dorado Sheriff's Office, and the FBI.
Importance of Public Awareness
00:04:28
Speaker
By the 20th, one week after she disappeared, having found few clues and no viable leads that pointed to a clear resolution, the search was called off. But the young girl's family has never stopped searching. For them, there's no time limit. For them, no resolution means there's an endless pain. But also, only often in small glimpses, still hope.
00:04:59
Speaker
Sadly, the most overpowering pain has led to bitterness, to anger, and to division, when what each side so desperately wants is answers.
Carly's Background and Family Dynamics
00:05:12
Speaker
This is the story of Carly Lane-Gusay.
00:05:52
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Alison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:06:02
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the case will take those tips to law enforcement so justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, and to follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases podcast and on TikTok
00:06:25
Speaker
at Coffee and Case's podcast because as these families know, conversation helps to keep their missing family member in the public consciousness, helping to keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week. I like to joke with my mom that she lucked out in the kid department because she never had to worry about my brother or me getting into trouble. Maggie and I have said on here before, but we are rule followers.
00:06:55
Speaker
Yes, we are. Yes. If
Carly's Behavioral Changes
00:06:59
Speaker
someone had told me not to do something or that something was bad, I wouldn't be caught dead doing that thing. Oh, same. Yeah. It's just ingrained in me. I don't know where it comes from. I don't know if it's from being an oldest child, if it's from being an only child for so long because I'm almost 12 years older than my brother.
00:07:24
Speaker
if it's like the influence of my parents or grandparents, if it's from being from a small town, but I just never, quote unquote, experimented with anything or really got into trouble. Like, I think the worst I ever did was have an attitude and say something snarky to my mom. Same. And I think like part of me
00:07:49
Speaker
thinks that like my brother was kind of like a stereotypical teenager, like stayed out all night, you know, like that kind of thing. And like, I think I saw how much that made my mom kind of worry about him. And I just didn't do that. And then like, I have this like intrinsic, I guess, fear almost of like disappointing my mom.
00:08:14
Speaker
oh yeah at age 30 and so that was like a huge part in like growing up and I kind of remember like
00:08:24
Speaker
kids were talking about all kinds of stuff that they were doing, and I was like, my mom says that's a sin. Nope, can't do that. I'm out. Yeah, I'm out. I'm not going to Hades. Thanks, though. No Hades for me. Yeah. That's so fun. But it's true, because even today, I don't know what I would do if my mom looked at me and said, I'm disappointed in you, Allison. I would cry. I'd be crushed. Yeah.
00:08:50
Speaker
Well, I bring this up Maggie because the teenager in our story this week was more of a typical American teenager and she did experiment with drugs like marijuana. And I'm bringing this up not to be judgy, but in full disclosure to let you know that I had to research some things like what are side effects of marijuana and like other things that I have no earthly idea about. So,
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah. My knowledge comes from movies. Yeah. And then I was like, Oh no, maybe I am a rule breaker because I'm searching all this stuff on my school computer.
00:09:30
Speaker
You're like, who's going to check my search history? Please don't search it. Oh my gosh, I can only imagine what they would think was wrong with me if they looked at search history. I can see your principal coming down there and being like, Allison, are you okay? You had some disturbing searches. I'm just coming to check on you.
00:09:51
Speaker
Well, one trait common to quite a few American children that I do share with Carly is that I too am the child of divorced parents.
00:10:05
Speaker
And Carly and I were both very young when our fathers remarried. Carly was only four. And we learned to navigate the world of a split family. And I mean, that's something that a lot of kids, I don't know about worldwide, but I know in America have dealt with.
00:10:26
Speaker
I remember when I was like in high school on the dance team that I was on, there was like 16 girls and I think only two still had, like me and one other girl still had parents that were married. All the other kids came from split households. I think it is relatively common.
00:10:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And sometimes that can, you know, lead to strife. But from the sounds of it, based on the research that I completed, Carly's father, Zach Guse, had married Carly's stepmother, Melissa, pretty soon after the divorce. So Melissa had been part of Carly's life ever since. So for quite a long time. So, you know, Carly's four when her parents divorce and
00:11:17
Speaker
you know, at the moment when I'm telling her story now, she's 16. Oh, yeah. So basically all of her memories are going to have her stepmother in them.
Night Before Disappearance
00:11:27
Speaker
Exactly. So when Carly was 16 and her mother, Lindsay Fairley, had decided to move to the town of Yerington, Nevada, which was like 160 miles away,
00:11:41
Speaker
Carly, you know, she's well adjusted living with her father and her stepmother, and they had two children together. So Carly had two younger brothers that she was like, I don't know if I want to move away from my school because, you know, she's well liked by everybody. She has all of her friends there. So she decided, even though her mom was moving away, to stay behind in Shalfant Valley, where she attended Bishop Union High School.
00:12:08
Speaker
So Anthony actually did a similar thing. His dad got a promotion when we were like we had just started senior year of high school and so they had to move to central Kentucky and he obviously I guess through their blessing decided just to stay back in Pike County with his grandmother so he could graduate like with all his friends and stuff like that.
00:12:33
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I get why she wanted to stay. That would be hard to make that switch at 16. Right. And in the weeks prior to the morning in question of October 13th, 2018, Carly had experimented with marijuana and she had a really bad reaction to it.
00:12:57
Speaker
In addition to that, she had been caught in possession with the marijuana on school grounds. Oh no. I know. So then she had been suspended. And because this suspension also coincided with some recent poor grades, the school had forced Carly to attend counseling.
00:13:20
Speaker
Okay, I don't necessarily think that's bad though. I think that could be really good. I don't think that's a good thing. Well, especially if they're like compounded problems, then I think that's good for a school to be like, let's try to get to the root of it. Yeah, I do too. I had read that Carly had experienced these severe adverse reactions to the marijuana use, but I didn't read exactly what that was.
00:13:50
Speaker
other than one side effect that played into Carly's disappearance, and that was extreme paranoia.
00:14:01
Speaker
So from what I understand and have gleaned from pop culture. From the Google. From the Google. Marijuana usually leads to like a mellowing experience. Yeah. I remember the commercial growing up and it was like the kid that had smoked marijuana and he was like melted into the couch.
00:14:25
Speaker
Yeah, because he's so chill. Yeah. Yeah. But that was not the effect that marijuana had on Carly.
00:14:34
Speaker
it did the opposite to Carly. And I was like, hmm, I wonder why? These are the things my mind thinks about, like why? So one reason for the contrasting reaction that I read is that different strains of marijuana have different amounts of THC. Well, my next thing would have been, what is THC?
00:14:58
Speaker
Exactly. This is why I said my search history. So because of the different amounts of THC in the different strains of marijuana, that is one thing that can lead to different effects on different people. And I also read that those who have underlying mental illness, the use of marijuana can like exacerbate those conditions.
00:15:26
Speaker
I feel like that is common with a lot of drugs, apparently. Yeah, and I think a lot of people who have mental illness
00:15:35
Speaker
not a lot of people. I'm just saying some people, but these are also, there are some people without mental illness who do the same thing, but who turn to substances like alcohol, marijuana, other drugs as a way to mask the pain. And then in essence, what's happening is it's making the problem worse. Yeah.
00:15:59
Speaker
Now, there was no information about Carly having an underlying mental illness to note, but she was aware of this adverse reaction to marijuana because her friends had told her about it when she had sobered up. So this had happened. Her friends were like, listen, Carly, don't think it's a good idea.
00:16:24
Speaker
that you're experimenting with marijuana because here's what it does to you. But some of her friends
00:16:33
Speaker
and this is in the weeks leading up to her disappearance, felt that she had started smoking it again. Okay, so she had been smoking, stopped for a while and then started smoking again? Yes. Okay. And those friends said that in the early days of October 2018. This is a recent case. Oh yeah, it's super recent.
00:16:58
Speaker
that in the early days of October, Carly had become paranoid that someone was tracking her cell phone.
00:17:07
Speaker
And she was so concerned and fixated on this idea of being tracked by like some strange someone that her friends were worried about those moments. And they were even calling them episodes, which to me makes it sound like these were like bad trips, you know? So strange. So there's no evidence that there's a real someone
00:17:35
Speaker
tracking her cell phone. But this is like she just like had a feeling or like this was part of the paranoia, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Like this is part of the paranoia. She's terrified that someone is tracking her phone. She never says who just someone. Just someone.
00:17:54
Speaker
According to interviews with both Carly's mother, Lindsay, and her stepmother, Melissa, though, neither one of them had observed like any unusual behavior from Carly. So that tells me that at least previously, these reactions of paranoia to marijuana were like fairly short-lived if they had worn off quickly enough like her parents hadn't noticed.
00:18:23
Speaker
Yeah, and I feel like from movies, that's kind of what is normal. I feel like it's not like super long. What do you even call it when you smoke marijuana? Do you go on a trip? I think so. Are you just high? Yeah, sure. Okay, go with that. Yeah, you would think so, Maggie, but not necessarily. And I'm gonna get to that here in just a second.
00:18:54
Speaker
So on October 12th, 2018, and this is according to one story. Oh, OK. Yes. I say this because there's another that we'll talk about in just a minute. Of course there is. Yeah. So as one story goes, Carly had told her stepmom that she wanted to attend a football game. And of course, her stepmom, Melissa, was like, OK, that's fine.
00:19:24
Speaker
But according to that story, Carly instead went to a party. Oh, Carly. I know. Attended by her boyfriend Donald and other friends. A party at which Carly decided again to smoke marijuana. Again, Carly. Come on now. I know. Learn your lessons.
00:19:51
Speaker
So her stepmom actually called Carly around 8 p.m., because remember her stepmom, Melissa, is thinking that she's at the football game. So she calls Carly and she's like, hey, do you want to ride home from the game? You know, because she has no idea that Carly's not even there. And Carly's like, no, thanks. I'm going to get a ride home with my boyfriend. Right. OK. All seems normal.
00:20:19
Speaker
But Carly called her stepmom back fairly soon afterward, like around 8.30 PM, admitted to her stepmom that she had told a lie about where she was, and then directed her stepmom, Melissa, to pick her up from this trailer park where the party was being held. That's a total Maggie thing. Like, if I ever
00:20:46
Speaker
attempted to break the rules that my mom had set for me. I can see me doing that, calling her right back, sobbing, I'm boo-hooing. Can you pick me up? I lied to you. I'm so sorry. That would be a Maggie thing. Yeah. I would totally do the same thing. More than if I didn't, I'd feel so guilty about it.
00:21:10
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I'll probably end up telling on myself. Right. So when Carly called Melissa and told her, you know, hey, I told a lie, I'm actually at this party, she was so upset and anxious due to another paranoid episode that like, even though she knew she was going to get punished for lying, that didn't stop her from calling Melissa to come pick her up. And
00:21:37
Speaker
Melissa said that when Carly called, she said something to this effect. Nevermind. Hurry up. I changed my mind. Come get me. I'm booking it down Dixon Lane. Hurry. Hurry. I'm scared. Oh, wow. Yeah. So like, you know, Melissa has no idea that Carly has been smoking marijuana.
00:22:02
Speaker
So she's freaking out, like jumping in her car, going. She's booking it to Nixon Lane. Yes, exactly. You want to talk about booking it. Here we go. Per this version of the story, the people at the party had witnessed Carly starting to become frantic and extremely paranoid and agitated after using marijuana.
00:22:26
Speaker
They reportedly tried to calm her down and she was inconsolable. And you know, again, Melissa doesn't know these details. She only knows Carly needs me, right? Like I gotta get there. The other version of the story,
00:22:46
Speaker
has Carly with her boyfriend, Donald, again. But this time they were at a mutual friend's house and not a party, per se. So they're hanging out with air quotes. Yes. In this version of events, drugs are also involved. So that hasn't changed. According to Carly's boyfriend and
00:23:14
Speaker
He says this is the accurate version, this version of the story. So he's saying what? So boyfriend is saying
00:23:26
Speaker
that this version of events is the accurate version of events. That story one is baloney. Correct. Okay. And he allegedly had this to say in a Facebook message about what happened before Carly gave that frantic message to herself on Melissa. And I say allegedly because
00:23:56
Speaker
What I'm getting ready to read you was it was found in a credible source, but I couldn't corroborate it anywhere because the author had said that he had this conversation in like, you know how in Facebook you can send private messages to one another? Yeah. That Carly's boyfriend Donald had said this in a private message. That's why I'm saying allegedly had this to say.
00:24:26
Speaker
So he said, allegedly, quote, me and Carly did smoke.
00:24:35
Speaker
It was at my friend's house at like 7 p.m., not a party. She got very scared, so we started walking back to my house. Carly got scared and ran from me and called Melissa. That was the last time I saw her. She got scared of me and started screaming my name and then pushed me away and told me not to come near her and stay away.
00:25:00
Speaker
And that was when she called Melissa and started running.
Ride Home and Unusual Behavior
00:25:03
Speaker
I tried to hold her and calm her down." End quote. So he is saying this to like this source where you got this? Yes. So basically saying they weren't at a party. They were at a friend's house. They did smoke weed.
00:25:18
Speaker
and that Carly had this paranoid episode, but he's trying to calm her down and that the reason she's saying, I'm booking it down Dixon Lane, hurry, hurry, I'm scared, is because for some reason she got scared of her boyfriend and started screaming his name, pushed him away, said, don't come near me and then started running. I just feel like that's very odd.
00:25:48
Speaker
It is. There's something that happens later that evening, though, that actually makes me believe what he's saying here. And not that she was actually scared of him for any legitimate reason. But maybe just this is part of that paranoia? Yes. Okay.
00:26:13
Speaker
So no matter which of these two versions is true though, it doesn't change the outcome because Carly's freaking out in both stories. She wants to go home in both stories. And she's running.
00:26:29
Speaker
away from something in both stories. Right. Yeah. It doesn't change like what she said to Melissa, like the wording of it, what she told her stepmom. It didn't lessen her anxiety, you know, no matter which story you think about. And so, you know, Melissa is just trying to get to her concerned about, you know, whatever it is that is troubling her stepdaughter.
00:26:57
Speaker
Because Melissa would be freaking out. Oh, I can only imagine. Yeah, because of the tone of Carly's voice. So when Melissa goes to the location that Carly had indicated, she got there around 9 PM, but Carly wasn't there. So Melissa's driving down the road, looking for Carly, and Melissa sees faintly in the distance this little teeny light bouncing up and down.
00:27:27
Speaker
Well, the light starts coming closer and it's growing brighter. And then soon a body comes into view with it and it's Carly. And that light was from her cell phone. She was using it to light the way and she was running as fast as she could toward Melissa's car and then jumped into the back seat. So I definitely did not see that coming. Like I definitely thought
00:27:55
Speaker
Like she calls Melissa, I need to wait home. We never see her again. Yeah, so she does make it home. Huh? Yeah, I get where you're, yeah, because she sent this frantic message. You'd think that would be the moment she'd disappear, but no. And when Melissa picked Carly up, she said that Carly's face looked, and I quote, ghost-like.
00:28:20
Speaker
and that she had largely dilated pupils. And like, I don't know about you Maggie, but I would have been freaking out and I would have sped out of there. So maybe I lied earlier because I might have broken the law because I would have been speeding. Because I would have been like, if my child's running, there has to be something that she's running from. Yeah, so I'm going to speed away from this danger. Right.
00:28:49
Speaker
But I think pretty soon afterward, Melissa was able to figure out that the paranoia and the dilated pupils were not from a legitimate danger, but from Carly using marijuana again.
00:29:06
Speaker
And the reason I say this is because Melissa said, once she started to figure that out, she tried to calm Carly down. But as they're driving home,
00:29:20
Speaker
Melissa has stated in several interviews that on this drive, Carly also became paranoid that the car that they were in was trying to hit and kill her. And so she kept changing seats in the vehicle as they were driving. So had Melissa been around Carly when she had this paranoid reaction to smoking marijuana? That is a fantastic question.
00:29:47
Speaker
I do not know if she had. I do know that Melissa takes an action here in a bit that seems to indicate that she was aware of the paranoia. And we know that she knew Carly had at least had marijuana in her possession because I'm sure the school would have called her.
00:30:13
Speaker
But I didn't read exactly that, oh yeah, they knew precisely this paranoid reaction, but Melissa does something that makes me think that she was aware. Okay.
00:30:29
Speaker
Like I said, super odd behavior. Yeah, weird. Yes. And it is true that Carly had experienced this marijuana induced paranoia before. Yeah, like her cell phone, someone's tracking her on her cell phone, that kind of thing. Exactly. Exactly.
00:30:47
Speaker
This was something even worse than previous experiences. Like the extent of this adverse reaction has led some to wonder if the weed that she smoked that night had been laced with some other substance that caused a drug-induced psychosis. So besides the fact that in the state of Kentucky, marijuana is illegal. And so
00:31:14
Speaker
by smoking it, you're breaking the law, so I can't do that. But another reason why I would never smoke marijuana is because you're literally
00:31:28
Speaker
Like in my mind, I picture you meeting someone on a street corner in a dark alleyway and you say things like, do you have the goods? And then they put something in your pocket and you put money in theirs. And like, you don't know this person. So what are they putting in this drug that you're smoking? Because marijuana essentially looks like oregano.
00:31:51
Speaker
So they could put other things in there and you don't know. Yeah. And like, where are they getting it? So like yet another reason why I have never, nor will I ever try drugs. Like you think you're smoking weed, but they've put cocaine in with that. So now you're addicted to coke. Yeah. I know. Yeah. I could like, I don't want to make, maybe I'm a control freak, but like I don't want to do anything.
00:32:22
Speaker
where I'm willingly giving up control of my mind, my body, anything like that. Yeah. I mean, I guess if it's distributed by a credible facility and it's from the government, I could maybe trust it a little more. I still wouldn't do that because
00:32:40
Speaker
I don't think I have told you all this, but I actually rescheduled my wisdom teeth removal twice. And then finally just canceled it because something completely freaks me out about being halfway asleep, but you're not always asleep. So I could do things and not know I'm doing them. And that freaks me out.
00:32:59
Speaker
I was just talking to Rodney about this the other day. It's called like Twilight or something like that. Yeah, like conscious sedation. What you're talking about, Maggie, we're like, you have no recollection of what happened, but they can be like, open your mouth wider. And you do. So like, you better trust the people who are doing this to you because you can do anything. Yeah.
00:33:25
Speaker
I know. And Carly had actually texted her boyfriend that night saying that she thought that the marijuana had been laced with something. And I'm sure they were drinking and a drug induced psychosis can especially be triggered when drug use is combined with alcohol. Bad combo. Yeah.
00:33:52
Speaker
When Melissa and Carly got home, Carly's dad Zach was already home from work and he saw the condition that she was in as well. But here's why I said, I kind of trust what Carly's boyfriend said as true. And it's because of the way Carly acted even when she got home. So like Carly safe at home at this point.
00:34:19
Speaker
but her behavior did not quickly improve. And I'm gonna show you my ignorance here, Maggie, and you sleuth hounds. In my head, I just assumed that side effects of drugs would wear off, even if it had triggered a drug-induced psychosis, right? That it would just wear off after a few hours. Like Tylenol. Yeah.
00:34:48
Speaker
I would have expected Carly's condition to at least slowly improve. Right? Yeah. Yeah. One would think. But researcher that I am, I looked it up.
00:35:04
Speaker
And I found, according to the National Institutes for Health's website, in an article from the Shanghai Archives of Psychiatry, in 60% of the patients, the symptoms of psychosis were resolved in a month or less. A month. What? Yes, a month.
00:35:27
Speaker
In 30%, the psychosis persisted for three to six months. And this is like psychosis that has come because of drug use? Drug use, yes. And in some, it lasted years.
Family's Response and Disappearance
00:35:44
Speaker
Oh. And I was like, holy cow. Again, yet another reason.
00:35:52
Speaker
do drugs one time could last the rest of your life. Yeah. My mouth's open. I was super naive. I had no idea. We live in a bubble. I know. We really do. It's a food network and true crime bubble. That's what it is.
00:36:11
Speaker
Yeah, as I mentioned, though, Carly continued to act erratic by doing things like fluctuating between huddling in a corner of the room because she's so scared. To telling her dad and her stepmom how much she loved them. Like waffling back between these two extremes.
00:36:35
Speaker
And they keep saying, you know, Carly, what's wrong, what's wrong? And she just kept saying, I don't know, I don't know, but she was deathly afraid of her cell phone and of her parents coming close to her. So maybe she did push her boyfriend away. That's what makes me feel like, I mean, that behavior that he described is nearly identical to this behavior that she's showing to her dad and her stepmom.
00:37:06
Speaker
Even as the hours passed though Maggie, the paranoia was still just as powerful of an influence over her behavior as when Melissa had picked her up. So like I'm trying to imagine like I'm a parent and I'm in this situation and I literally have no idea, no idea what I would do.
00:37:29
Speaker
you know, because in my mind, the side effects of marijuana were off in a couple hours. Right. So, like, are we sitting at home? I'm barricading her in her room? Like, am I taking her to the hospital? What am I doing? I am so glad you brought that up because I don't know what I would do either. And I think
00:37:53
Speaker
Well, Carly's stepmom, Melissa and her dad, Zach, did not call 911. And there are lots of people out there who are hypercritical of them for not doing that. And I think that's hard because unless you're in that situation, you have no idea what you would actually do. Yeah, exactly.
00:38:17
Speaker
Melissa did report that she tried to calm Carly down and to get her to eat something, like get something else in her system. And so she made her a salad. So the English teacher in me sees the irony in this because marijuana is called the devil's lettuce. What? Yes, I learned it from a movie.
00:38:45
Speaker
Well, this next comment I'm about to make then, well now I understand it. I have no idea that it was called that. Okay, well now it makes sense why when Melissa gave it to her, Carly spat it out of her mouth and she called it the devil's lip.
00:39:06
Speaker
So I was just thinking like, you know, when I'm on a diet, I happen to agree with that statement. This is from the devil. That's right. This is the devil's lettuce. I had no idea that that was actually a name for marijuana. I taught you something today. You did. Well, yeah, now now that makes sense. So yeah, Carly, like,
00:39:29
Speaker
And I don't mean to laugh, like it is true when I'm on a diet, a salad is the devil's lettuce. We talked about Hades, salads belong there.
00:39:40
Speaker
I don't want to make light of Carly's reaction because she was being serious and it wasn't just that she was looking at the salad and maybe, you know, now that I know what it means, her thinking that it was more marijuana, but she actually, in a lot of her behavior that night, believed that something evil was after her.
00:40:05
Speaker
And like she was even begging Melissa to read the Bible with her. Oh, if my kid was like, mom, I feel like something's after me. We need to read the Bible. I would be like, I'm calling a priest. We're getting some holy water. Yep. It's going to be fine. Psalm 23. Yes. The warden is my shepherd. Shut up. Whatever I had to do.
00:40:32
Speaker
Despite how scary I'm sure that was, Carly's reactions for Zach and Melissa, they did not, as I mentioned a minute ago, call 911. And again, I probably would have called 911.
00:40:54
Speaker
or taken her to the ER just because the actions would have freaked me out so much? Yeah, I think maybe after it didn't wear off and we're at home and I can't get her calmed down, I would probably have taken her to the ER just because I feel like she needs both help with her physical well-being and I feel like mental well-being at that moment. Yeah, I would agree with that.
00:41:19
Speaker
I can also understand not wanting to call the police because... Yeah, they're from a small town. Like if that had happened to me, everybody at the post office would have been talking about it. Everybody at the little IGA down the street would have been talking about it. Everybody at the one gas station in my town would have been talking about it. Like they're probably already talking about her because she got caught with marijuana at school. So do we really want to add to that?
00:41:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like that could be some of the reasons why they didn't because of a potential bad reputation in a small town and, you know, not wanting to like create a rap sheet for Carly.
00:42:02
Speaker
Now, while I do understand partially the not calling 911, I do question a little the next action that they took. But again, I've never been in this situation, so who am I really to question? They decided
00:42:22
Speaker
that they should videotape her having this like seeming psychotic break. And you know, earlier you asked if Melissa knew about like this drug induced paranoia. And because they chose to record her, that kind of makes me feel like they did know. So they're like, let me show you what you act like when you're using marijuana.
00:42:52
Speaker
Well, I would think that the only reason you would have to record your kid because I wouldn't want to make my kid feel like ashamed necessarily. Oh yeah. I might would record it. So like clearly I'm putting my kid in therapy after this. Like you're going to like a drug counselor is to maybe show like a professional how she acts when she's on drugs.
00:43:21
Speaker
I hadn't even thought about that. That's a good point. Thank you. Yeah, like it could be you're right to show a professional. It could be to show Carly, like, look at this horrible reaction that you have to marijuana, you know, let this be a warning not to do it again.
00:43:40
Speaker
And those do seem like the only justifications that make sense to me anyway, because if they did it to shame her, I am not big on using shame to teach a lesson. No. And why would you just want those on your phone? That would be weird. So I don't see anybody just recording it just because I can. Right.
00:44:01
Speaker
And they would have had no way of knowing that these videos, Melissa recorded too, would be the last proof of life for Carly Guse. So have these videos of Carly been released to the public? They have not. And because they haven't, there are, again, some conflicting stories about what Carly says in them.
00:44:28
Speaker
But based on what we can piece together from what Carly's mom, Lindsay, has said in interviews, actually all three parents, so like mom, dad, stepmom, appeared on the Dr. Phil show. I know, you ought to check it out, to talk about Carly's case. So when you piece all those things together, you can kind of glean some information about what's in them.
00:44:56
Speaker
So I'll tell you what we know. Carly's mom, Lindsay, stated that the video included Carly begging Melissa to call 911, making it sound as though Carly was like aware that she needed medical attention.
00:45:16
Speaker
But Melissa has argued that, no, that's a misrepresentation of what actually happened. Melissa says, instead, Carly said something like,
00:45:28
Speaker
quote, if something happened to me, would you call 911? To which Melissa responds like, absolutely, I would. So Carly is based on, again, either story, scared of something bad happening, and at least mentions 911.
00:45:50
Speaker
So I feel like it's more of the which you know obviously I wasn't there so I don't know but more of the Melissa story because I think like that just sounds more like someone who's super paranoid like you know oh my god if something happened to me would you call 911 or are you gonna let me die here? Yeah but I'm gonna tell you something that's a little bit more off-putting. Oh lord.
00:46:17
Speaker
So what I'm getting ready to tell you is what Doug Carey of the Las Vegas Review Journal said is on the tapes. He, again, this Doug Carey, said that he was able to listen to the audio. Why is he so special? I don't know. That's why, again,
00:46:43
Speaker
I was not able to corroborate this information, but I'm giving it to you letting you know that I was not able to corroborate it. But he said that also in the recording at one point in this like eight minute long audio that Carly says, and I quote,
00:47:05
Speaker
I really messed up today." And Melissa tried to soothe her by saying, we all do things in life that we regret, substances especially. After Melissa urged Carly to get some sleep, the troubled girl responded, I don't want to go to sleep. You're going to kill me.
00:47:27
Speaker
Melissa tried to rationalize with her by saying, why would I kill you? That's preposterous. Carly responded sobbing, I'm just thinking all this demonic stuff. I can't help it. End quote.
00:47:42
Speaker
Okay, so first off, kudos to you, Melissa, for using the word preposterous in your normal everyday language. I know. I love big words. And I don't even know if I really ever use preposterous unless I'm trying to be goofy. And then I'm like, that's preposterous. Same. So good job, Melissa. You've got a well-developed vocabulary.
00:48:02
Speaker
Secondly, though, like, is Carly just being paranoid in general? Like, you know, oh my God, you're going to kill me? Just kind of like how she thought maybe her boyfriend was going to hurt her? Or does she like have reason to think that Melissa or her dad could hurt her, which I find
00:48:28
Speaker
And luckily, I mean, they've raised her. Right. Yeah. I'm thinking it's more the first, just because she had the same reaction to Donald. And, you know, she even says, according to this Doug Carey guy, right? He says like at the end of it, that she says, I'm just thinking all this demonic stuff. Yeah. What does that mean? That's creepy. I know. I would be freaked out. Yeah. I'll be like, you need to go get a bath in holy water. Yes.
00:48:58
Speaker
After these videos were taken, Melissa has stated that Carly continued these erratic vacillations between fear and giddiness, even making odd requests of Melissa, like wanting to paint their toenails together or color in a coloring book.
00:49:20
Speaker
or read the Bible. I'm not saying any of those things are weird in and of themselves. Obviously, they aren't. But when they all are happening together, this is like super odd behavior for Carly, given the circumstances. Now, here again, Maggie, at this moment, we have two conflicting stories. But this time, they're both from the same person, her stepmom, Melissa. OK.
00:49:49
Speaker
Originally, in an interview, Melissa said that she finally was able to get Carly calmed down and to go to bed. She said that when she checked in on Carly around 5.45 a.m., Carly was fast asleep.
00:50:07
Speaker
However, when she went in to wake up her two boys and Carly, less than two hours later, around 7.15 a.m., Carly was not in bed. She was not in the house. She was just...
00:50:22
Speaker
gone. Again, though, I can say if this was my child with absolute certainty, I would have been sleeping in something heavy against the window or door and Anthony would have been blocking the other exit like you're not going anywhere. Yeah, or just sleep with her. Yeah. And I bring that up. Because it's related to Melissa's second version of the story. So
00:50:51
Speaker
Just this timeframe, Melissa changes. Yes. And I didn't look specifically at how long in between story one and story two, but her story does change. Okay.
00:51:09
Speaker
So she later stated to Dateline and to Dr. Phil that Carly had asked her to stay in bed with her that night of October 12th into the morning of the 13th and that she had agreed. In this version of the story, Melissa woke up at like 548 a.m. to see Carly also awake.
00:51:37
Speaker
but then Melissa fell back asleep. And when she finally woke up around 7 a.m., Carly was gone. So I am more inclined to believe Melissa's second version of the story. And let me tell you why. Okay.
00:51:52
Speaker
The first reason I'm inclined to believe it is because she said the time 548 AM instead of 545 AM because I feel like that is so super specific. Like you would have to roll over, like tap your phone and you're going to remember, oh, it's 548. Right. Like I think you would have to make note of that, but also
00:52:16
Speaker
Like if I woke up at 548 and my kid who has had a horrible night has been saying crazy things. It's just like awake, staring at me. There's a way I'm going back to sleep. That's true. I just want to scare the car out of me and take it off.
00:52:33
Speaker
I'm just going to be like, okay, well, she's up. Like, are we okay? Like, are we good now? Or do we need to maybe go to the hospital or figure out step two? So now it is time for my favorite part of the episode. I feel like I need to create a theme song that we can play before I do this each time. Like, let's go analyze. Analyze, lies, lies, lies. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Like an echo.
00:53:03
Speaker
I need to come up with a theme song. Maybe you slow towns can help me. You creative folks out there. Just send us something. So many people who have looked into the case say that the changing of stories indicates guilt of some kind. Hey, but that could just be like you feel guilty because this happened to your kid, not guilt that you did something to your kid.
00:53:30
Speaker
Yeah, and some people have taken it to that extreme Maggie, where like they're accusing Melissa and Zach of covering up an overdose or something of the sort. I don't really believe that.
00:53:44
Speaker
At minimum though, those who doubt Zach and Melissa wonder why a story like that would change. Like, after all, wouldn't you remember what happened on this night that would stand out to you for so many reasons? Yeah, because you're going to remember the last time you see your kid alive.
00:54:07
Speaker
Yeah, we talk about this all the time. When weird things happen, you remember it. So I feel like on this night that would have stood out for all of these reasons, like how would you remember all these other details, but you wouldn't remember the fact that you slept beside of her. Right. So I get their skepticism.
00:54:28
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean while it does like bad on Melissa's behalf because she's changing her story and like what's the true purpose like either way your child's missing at seven o'clock in the morning. Um, but I feel like
00:54:46
Speaker
I know there are parts of the day I found out my brother died through his funeral that I literally just don't remember. And I don't know if it's my brain blocking out a really hurtful part of my memory. It's just blackness. There's huge frames of time I don't remember.
00:55:14
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's why I'm torn on this one too Maggie, because on the other hand, I know that grief and trauma can have a huge impact on the brain and they can actually cause memory loss. So that, I mean, that makes sense that you have like these moments that seem to be just gone. And, you know, maybe for a minute there, she recalled this night,
00:55:42
Speaker
just like all the thousands of other ones where Carly had gone to bed, you know? Like when she's initially asked about it. And I mean, in the aftermath of Carly's disappearance, I'm sure everyone was feeling this mixture of shock and hope and depression and denial and panic and fear and isolation and guilt and like literally all of these things at once. Yeah.
00:56:09
Speaker
So while I do feel like the night was pretty memorable and that being asked to sleep beside of her wouldn't have been something that you could easily forget, here's what I'm thinking. I wonder whether this changing story does have something to do with guilt, but not guilt of like having had something to do with what happened to Carly.
00:56:35
Speaker
guilt related to proximity. Here's what I mean. If it's possible, I think I would feel far more guilty over my daughter disappearing from right beside me than I would from her disappearing from another room, if that makes sense.
00:57:00
Speaker
Yeah, because I think you can justify it in your mind if you are in another room because you could be like, oh, well, I just didn't hear her get up. But if you're in the bed with her, it's hard to justify that because you're like a foot away from her and you would, should hear her like, you should feel her get up, right? The bed might creak or like, you know, something like that. So yeah, I can see that. That's why I think it changed.
00:57:31
Speaker
Just like the stories of where Carly had been before Melissa came to pick her up though, no matter which version of Melissa's story we believe to be true, either one, Carly is gone when Melissa woke up around 7 a.m.
00:57:49
Speaker
And in both versions, I didn't get to this part yet in them, but in both versions, the front door of the home had been left ajar with no sign of forced entry. In both versions, Carly had left behind her glasses, her wallet with money in it, and her cell phone.
00:58:13
Speaker
Okay. And like, so obviously she's not planning on going somewhere. She would have taken her money. Yeah, don't think she would have taken her cell phone though. She's scared of that thing. I agree with you. There's been a lot of people who are like, why would a teenager have willingly left their cell phone behind? Because someone's tracking her on it, apparently. Hello. Yes. Yes. Like all of her irrational paranoia has been centered around her cell phone.
00:58:40
Speaker
Yeah, it makes perfect sense that she would leave that at home. I completely agree. Like that is reason enough for me to understand why she left it behind. With the events of the night before in mind though, and they apparently saw like a lone footprint on the driveway, and they assumed that it belonged to Carly,
00:59:01
Speaker
So they see the front door open, Carly's not there. There's like a footprint on the
Search Efforts and Public Involvement
00:59:08
Speaker
driveway. She left her stuff behind. So Zach and Melissa, of course, we talk about this all the time, rationalized. And they were like, well, you know, obviously Carly left on foot.
00:59:20
Speaker
And they're like, you know, maybe she wanted to take a walk to clear her head. You know, maybe she's still paranoid from the evening before. Whatever it is, they decide to start driving around the local neighborhoods looking for her. And I feel like any parent would do that. Like, that's going to be your first thing. Like, we're going to drive around, see if we can find her before we take another step with this. Yeah, that would be the first thing that I would do.
00:59:46
Speaker
Well, when they couldn't find Carly, Zach Guse made two phone calls. The first was to Carly's mom, Lindsay, around 9.35 a.m. to inform her of the situation. Kudos to him. I mean, that's pretty early, pretty soon. I mean, you're only two and a half hours from when Melissa woke up and Carly's not there. Yeah, like you've had time to circle, like maybe one or two neighborhoods.
01:00:14
Speaker
Yeah, and you wouldn't want to alert the other parent over nothing. Exactly. Right. And then the second phone call was to local law enforcement to be on the lookout for Carly. So I feel like they acted pretty quickly in that two hour span, two to two and a half hours, between finding Carly missing and calling Lindsay and the police. Zach and Melissa, like I said, were driving around, but they weren't just driving.
01:00:41
Speaker
Maggie, they were literally knocking on every door to see if anyone had seen Carly. Aw. I know. And I feel like that's even taking it. I would have done the same thing, knowing how frantic I would have been. But I think a lot of people would have just driven around. But no, they're knocking on doors.
01:01:04
Speaker
Luckily, there were witnesses who had spotted Carly Guse on the morning of October 13th, 2018. Three, in fact. Oh, well that's good. Yeah. Richard Eddie remembers seeing Carly because he noticed something odd. He said it was kind of like a chilly morning and he saw Carly walking by in a t-shirt.
01:01:30
Speaker
So, you know, he's like, man. And you would remember that. I had to put a jacket on, you know, like something you wouldn't know. Yeah. That's a memory. I think that would stick out. Yeah. Yeah. And not only did her attire draw his attention, but so did the fact that she was alone and she was walking around waving a piece of paper in the air. And he said the paper looked to be about 12 inches by 12 inches in size. So that is weird. And I would definitely remember that.
01:01:59
Speaker
Yeah, if somebody's walking down the street waving a piece of paper, I would be like, lock the door. Here comes somebody trying to tell us who to vote for.
01:02:10
Speaker
Not long after Eddie saw Carly, he heard a knock at the door and a woman, Melissa Gusee, asked if he had seen her daughter. And he was like, yeah, I just saw her. He gives this description. He says what she was doing. And he even offered to drive in the direction that he saw her walking and look for this girl who he had just seen. Eddie. I know. Good Samaritan right there.
01:02:38
Speaker
Because he didn't have to do that. He didn't have to do that. That was super kind. But he wasn't able to find her. A second witness also recalled seeing Carly walking down the road, piece of paper in hand, staring up at the sky. So here are independent witnesses seeing the same thing. So this is good news. This is exactly what law enforcement wants. Witnesses who don't know each other. The claim the same thing.
01:03:08
Speaker
Exactly. A third witness, a woodcutter, saw someone meeting Carly's description standing near Highway 6 behind a barbed wire fence like just standing there.
01:03:22
Speaker
But again, I think could maybe go along with the second witness. She's just staring up in the sky with the second person. So maybe she's migrated a little. Right. And it does make it sound like this drug induced paranoia is still something that's affecting her.
01:03:40
Speaker
Law enforcement actually did their due diligence in this case. They spoke with witnesses, they organized searches, they collaborated with all of those other agencies that I mentioned in the introduction. Yeah, it was a huge list. I was impressed. All of the parents were cooperative with the investigation. And in an attempt to aid in getting Carly's story out there though,
01:04:06
Speaker
Melissa did another thing that some people who are interested in reading about Carly's case have questioned. She began live streaming on Facebook about Carly being missing. Okay, but I don't find that weird. Like to me, I just see that as like, I'm trying to raise awareness because my stepdaughter is missing.
01:04:32
Speaker
I totally agree with you. I think that it was done with good intentions, but it's not just the fact that she has made these recordings that has caused people to question. And again, I'm going to say this again. We all like to assume that we would know exactly what to do in these situations and let's be honest, we don't.
01:05:03
Speaker
Just like you, Maggie, believe that she was just trying to help get word out for people to be looking for Carly. But the reason the videos have led to speculation and accusations is because some viewers have questioned Melissa's integrity by saying that her eyes are too shifty in the video. So that means she's lying. This is what they're saying.
01:05:32
Speaker
My face though, because I'm like, really? I feel like that's like saying, oh, she's wearing a purple shirt. She has to be a liar.
01:05:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And listen, I know for making TikTok videos for the podcast, and I know you do too, Maggie, I'm always looking around the screen instead of looking straight at it. And that doesn't mean I'm lying in the video. It means, and I know you probably wouldn't guess this by my professions of teacher and podcaster, but I'm pretty shy and I'm self-conscious. Yeah. So like, I don't like looking straight at the screen. And if that's true for me, why couldn't it also be true for Melissa?
01:06:10
Speaker
Or like in some of the like TikTok videos we've made, like I'm sometimes reading like where I'll write notes to make sure that I hit like all these like topics that I want to cover in one video in the like X amount of time that I have. So maybe it's the same for her. Like she's reading something and that's why her eyes look shifty. That's a good point. Yeah. Like she doesn't want to forget any of these details that she needs to mention.
01:06:39
Speaker
I think there's a lot of ways to explain shifting eyeballs other than she murdered her stepdaughter. Yes, I think that is an extreme. Yeah. But it isn't just Melissa's integrity Maggie that has been questioned. There have been those who question the integrity of the investigation by law enforcement and saying like,
01:07:00
Speaker
Well, the betting that Carly slept on that last night has never been tested. Attested for what? I know. Or saying they didn't serve a search warrant for Zach and Melissa's cars.
01:07:14
Speaker
Those are some of the things that they're saying. And that's easy to pick apart in hindsight, you know, what we should have done versus what was done. But I was actually impressed by the manpower and the swiftness with which law enforcement did respond in Carly's case. Me too, it was like just a couple, like something happened the very first day and then it was like the next day when they hadn't found her, this big list of agencies are helping and like, I don't think they did good.
01:07:42
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, the manpower alone looking for Carly was phenomenal.
Speculations and Theories
01:07:49
Speaker
And they did polygraph tests. They analyzed those recordings that I told you that Melissa had made of Carly. They interviewed any and all witnesses. They did a technology sweep of phone records and social media. And the list goes on.
01:08:05
Speaker
But as hopeful as things looked with three witnesses, that hope fizzled out. And that's where leads both started and ended. So all we have are theories. So I'm going to share them with you super quickly. Let's do it.
01:08:26
Speaker
In theory one, Carly's mother is convinced that Melissa and Zach had something to do with Carly's disappearance. Even promoting ideas that the quote unquote girl walking down the street that was seen by the witnesses was really Melissa rather than Carly.
01:08:49
Speaker
or that the witnesses' memories were somehow manipulated by Melissa when she visited their homes when she was knocking on doors. I'm not a fan of this theory. First off, does Melissa look like Carly at all?
01:09:03
Speaker
Not really. Okay. And then my next question is like, I feel like you would need to be super duper smart on like an investigative and like, like, I don't even know some kind of weird level to be able to manipulate people's memories. Not saying that Melissa isn't smart, but I feel like you're going to have to practice doing that. You're not going to be able to do that the first time you talk to someone. Yeah.
01:09:31
Speaker
And with this theory, Carly's mom argues that she believes Carly actually took a drug stronger than marijuana that night because her mom, Lindsay, said that Carly had recently asked her about LSD. LSD acid. Yeah. See, I didn't even know that.
01:09:56
Speaker
I'm thinking, I mean, that would be a red flag if my little sleuth hound were like, mom, tell me about LSD. I'd be like, no, and we're going to see a counselor right now. Yeah, so why didn't Lindsay say something if she was concerned that Carly had been thinking about taking something harder than marijuana?
01:10:16
Speaker
I don't know. Unless she thought that maybe she was just like asking questions. Yeah. So Lindsay actually thinks that Carly did LSD that night and that she overdosed. That to me
01:10:31
Speaker
could explain why Melissa said she woke up and Carly's just staring like staring because she did have already passed away by then. And that's actually what Carly's mom believes happened. She thinks that when Melissa says she saw Carly awake in those early morning hours that Carly was actually dead at the time. But then from there, it's
01:10:57
Speaker
It's basically like Carly's mom believes that Melissa and Zach then tried to like cover it up. But why would you though?
01:11:05
Speaker
See, I don't know, but I do know that most of her doubt stems from the way that Zach had told her that Carly was missing. Here's what she said. Quote, at nine thirty five a.m. on Saturday, October 13th, I was notified by her father, my ex-husband, that she was gone. Gone to me is a huge red flag and has never sat easily with me. End quote.
01:11:35
Speaker
but I feel like
01:11:40
Speaker
Unless you're someone who like specifically deals with missing persons or like you have a true crime podcast or you host some type of unsolved mysteries on TV, like you're not going to naturally use the word missing because I think missing puts it at a new level than gone. Because to me, like I would just say, Oh my God, she's gone. I can't find her. Not Oh my God, she's missing. I can't find her. Yeah.
01:12:07
Speaker
I completely agree. To me, again, those things aren't enough. Like the use of the word gone isn't enough. I personally would have been knocking on doors too. So I don't think that that was done to manipulate. And I do feel like they would have called 911 if Carly had been unresponsive. Theory two, Carly was picked up along highway six.
01:12:36
Speaker
In December of 2018, so a couple of months after Carly disappears, searchers discovered a pair of bloody underwear near some coyote feces. The underwear was collected and it was supposed to be sent away to be tested, but it was accidentally sent to the wrong facility.
01:12:57
Speaker
going to the California Department of Justice instead, but the sheriff's office has stated that they don't feel that underwear is linked to Carly's case. What they do feel is that just like whatever happened to the owner of this underwear, they think that it is a distinct possibility that Carly could have been kidnapped by human traffickers while she was walking along the highway.
01:13:23
Speaker
Or like, even if it's not human traffickers that she like fell into the wrong hands while hitchhiking. Alternatively, as a third theory, because of the state that she was last in, right, that we've seen her
01:13:41
Speaker
So basically, in many ways, unaware of reality. Carly might have wandered into the desert and fallen into a ravine while she was walking. I mean, especially if she's staring up at the sky and not looking down at where she's walking, or even that she succumbed to the elements, because remember her clothing, she's ill prepared for that environment, because deserts can get cold at night. So that's another possibility.
01:14:11
Speaker
The first theory is supported by Carly's mom, Lindsay. And Carly's dad and stepmom, Zach and Melissa, actually believe it's one of the other two. So what are you feeling, Maggie? I agree with Zach and Melissa. I think it's one of the other two. I lean more toward
01:14:33
Speaker
I mean, really, like I wanna say I lean more towards two, but I kind of lean more towards three. Just because her behavior was so erratic, like I'm wondering if she did just kind of wander off and just kind of succumb to the elements. Yeah, and like I'm not saying theory one can't be true, but part of me wonders how much
01:15:01
Speaker
Pain and anger played a role in Lindsay's belief because it's hard to accept that your child is missing and especially hard to accept that your child is missing while your child was under someone else's watch. So I think it's easy to blame that other parent in that situation. Yeah. You know, to be like, you should have been watching better. Yeah, you did this.
01:15:29
Speaker
And I say this because
01:15:33
Speaker
From my research, Zach and Melissa have actually been very helpful to law enforcement. Law enforcement said, hey, we need socks and shoes that belonged to Carly so we can train our dogs to her scent. And they provided them. And the dogs, Maggie, actually traced Carly's scent from her home down the road where the witnesses had seen her.
01:16:00
Speaker
and to the intersection of White Mountain Estate Road and Highway 6 right where that third witness had seen her behind the fence. So maybe it is theory too then.
01:16:12
Speaker
Yeah, because it literally follows her right past all these witnesses right to that spot. And unfortunately, they say that the wind likely carried the scent away because the scent stopped there. But in my mind, it could also be because somebody picked her up there. True.
01:16:34
Speaker
As American Crime Journal has indicated, and I agree, the fact that the Mono County Sheriff's Office has maintained jurisdiction in the case seems to indicate that they lack any solid evidence that Carly crossed state lines, right? Like they can't say for sure.
01:16:53
Speaker
that she did, but I would also argue that it could have remained in their jurisdiction because the scent ends right there too. They can't say that she did cross the state line, but they can't say that she didn't. We talked a few weeks ago, Maggie, when you did Amber Hagerman's case that led to the creation of the Amber Alert system, and how helpful a system like that can be,
01:17:21
Speaker
Sadly, because there was no sign of an abduction, like no vehicle, no license description, an Amber Alert could not be called for Carly.
Call for Public Awareness and Engagement
01:17:33
Speaker
I mean, that's just sad. I feel like we need a system for kids that maybe are just missing, not necessarily abducted. How many cases are there that are like Carly's that just don't qualify? Exactly.
01:17:49
Speaker
But there are no qualifications for you, Sleuth Hounds, in sharing Carly's story. We need to tell Carly's story so she's not overlooked or ignored again. No one has been charged with anything in connection to Carly's case other than a young man who has pled guilty to contributing to the delinquency of a minor and providing Carly with the marijuana.
01:18:18
Speaker
Despite no other charges, there have been plenty of accusations flying on both sides. Even the two Carla Guse Facebook groups have been places where rumors have replaced facts and where unsavory comments have festered into debilitating accusations that destroy the investigation rather than build it.
01:18:43
Speaker
Speculation has been confused with truth, and drama has replaced dedication. We have a chance to get this right if only we put aside differences, if only we focus on truth. I only hope the leads have not dried up or blown away in the desert wind, but have instead gone somewhere.
01:19:13
Speaker
one somewhere in the right direction.
Closing and Contact Information
01:19:19
Speaker
Anyone with information is asked to call the Mono County Sheriff's Office at 760-932-5678 or email K-A-R-L-I-E-G-U-S-E tips at M-O-N-O
01:19:47
Speaker
Again, please like and join us on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and to see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases podcast and on TikTok at Coffee and Cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcast at gmail.com.
01:20:10
Speaker
Please tell your friends about our podcast so that more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to write our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.