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Episode 53: Rachel Watts (Thinky Games, Indieventure podcast)
355 Plays18 days ago
In this episode, Alan and Syrenne are joined by Rachel Watts, the editor in chief of Thinky Games (thinkygames.com) and co-host of the Indieventure Podcast. Topics include the economics of covering games, what makes puzzle games unique and what it’s like to write a book about Cocoon.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Drakkneck and Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Saran from Drakkneck and Friends, and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazelden, the head of Drakkneck at Drakkneck and Friends.
00:00:34
Speaker
Hey there. Today, we're joined by Rachel Watts, who you may know from her work at thinkygames.com. How are you doing today? Hi, I'm doing good. i'm I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me on. Of course. ah So can you introduce yourself to listeners who are unfamiliar with your work?
00:00:53
Speaker
Yes, of course. Hello, listeners. um Yeah, I'm Rachel. I'm a games journalist. I've been writing about video games for far too long. um I've worked at PC Gamer, Rock Paper Shotgun, and then have freelanced at The Guardian and a bunch of other places, GamesRadar, oh my gosh, too many. And I'm currently editor at Thinky Games, which is ah how I've come into the Dracnik and Friends orbit, I suspect. I've been working at Thinky Games for almost two years now. It'll be two years in May. And I love it so so much. Yeah. ah This community is so great. I've never i've never had this much fun writing about games or covering games before. Like, it's so nice.
00:01:37
Speaker
That's awesome. ah So as someone myself who got into the industry ah writing about games, I'm going to ask a very a a very not loaded and very polite question.
Transition from Film to Gaming Journalism
00:01:49
Speaker
ah Why writing about games?
00:01:51
Speaker
o i Honestly, i so I studied film. I loved film and guess what? No jobs in film. So I said, what's the second best? ah Video games. So that's kind of how it started. All right. We are we are the rebound medium. This is your official position. in Video games are the second best medium after film.
00:02:14
Speaker
I tell you what, the hard switch happened quick though, because I was into indie games and I loved them a lot. But when I started writing about them, i was like, film, like shove it out, shove it out the way. This is where I am now. And honestly, I haven't looked back. Like it just, that decision of being like,
00:02:33
Speaker
because it was the decision to go from it from being like, oh, I enjoy this thing to I want to examine it in a critical way. And it just absolutely changed, changed my perspective. So no, I am. I'm firmly in camp video games now. ah ah About what year was this?
00:02:52
Speaker
Oh, God, i have no idea. Well, when I finished uni, so, oh God, like. do you Do you remember any of the specific games that like made that flip switch in your head?
Impact of Indie Game: The Movie
00:03:03
Speaker
Ooh, okay, Proteus. Proteus, the game. I wrote my dissertation on it. oh So yes, ah the video game that's, is it a video game, question mark? I mean, yes, it is. But that was like the thing about it at the time, right? Was it was like a walking sim where you're walking around, there's not much going on and you're listening to the lovely ambience and looking at the beautiful pixel graphics. And I just, for me, I loved that game so much. And I was like,
00:03:31
Speaker
like I've never played a game like this. like This is the kind of games that I want to play. i think at the time, it was very um indie game, the movie. So we had Braid and Super Meat Boy. And I liked them, but I loved Proteus. yeah So that was the gateway game for Proteus documentary when?
00:03:50
Speaker
Yes, right? When? Please! I mean, it's it's it's also, it's it's so funny. um For some reason, Indiegating the Movie has been coming up so much this year. with like When I was at GDC, I feel like it came up a lot. And everyone has like a lot of weirdly mixed feelings about how everything about that has aged. yeah But it is it is very funny that...
00:04:18
Speaker
this sort of, whether or not you like it, this very important piece of history ends up propping up essentially three sets of auteurs and two of them are in the spooky space.
00:04:32
Speaker
Yes, 100%. Oh my God, that I didn't even think of that. That is so true. Wow. um Unfortunately, from that documentary, the only thing i remember really vividly is the first time watching it, like taking everything in. And then I remember not Edmund McMillan, but the other guy. Yeah, Tommy. He doesn't work with him. Tommy. He was on the phone and I think their game hadn't appeared on the front page of Xbox. Yes. Right. So he's on the phone. And I remember there was a shot of his feet because I guess he was looking worried.
00:05:06
Speaker
I was like, takeaway was like, they did him so dirty with that shot. yeah No, no, no. hi I refuse to look up when WikiFeet became a thing. I have to imagine that this is like...
00:05:21
Speaker
oh But I was just sitting there being like, I really need to be engaged with what these people are saying, but why would they do that to him? Okay. We are, we are signs that we are in for an all timer episode of the podcast. We're five minutes into recording and we've talked about Tommy Reppiness's feet.
00:05:39
Speaker
Oh God. But what you are what you said is so true. I hadn't realized that before. Oh my God. What does that
Indie Games and Storytelling Innovations
00:05:47
Speaker
say? How, how many, how many game developers do you think are on WikiFeet?
00:05:53
Speaker
o Too many, and i yeah suspect I suspect multiple from that documentary. definite you're Definitely that shot. i I remember it so clearly. It's so gross in a way. i don't know why it really hit me. That's so funny that that's what stuck in your brain about that. Yes. I feel like, the I'm going to be honest, I feel like the lasting legacy in terms of shots of that documentary is Jonathan Blow crying in a dark room while Soulja Boy yeah laughs about Braid not having any point.
00:06:26
Speaker
Yeah. the um I remember it was like his silhouette, isn't it And he's like on his head in his hands. Yeah, they're like they're like, we are going to frame this artfully. And then the entire industry just looks at this and is like, Ella Mayo, what is this? Yeah. Oof. Oof. Big oof.
00:06:44
Speaker
God. um Just a very weird time in games. Yeah, I mean, I i started writing my games in 07. Oh, okay, okay. When when when this ah documentary was announced, which was like after... it Fez was the last of the three games to ship. And it was like right after, right around the time that Fez was shipping was like, I believe when the documentary was announced. People were like, oh, that's interesting. Not and so not realizing that this was going to become...
00:07:13
Speaker
core to the lexicon of how people outside the industry talked about indie games for like the next five years. Yes. Yeah, I'd absolutely totally agree with that.
00:07:24
Speaker
Oh God, and look where they are now. That's kind of crazy to think about that. like maybe this is a really, this rogue take, but Phil Fish literally just being like, no, no Fez 2. kind of, I kind of love that.
00:07:40
Speaker
Is that correct? Correct decision. yeah Correct decision. So um out out of everything between like, Jonathan blow is working on his, his next massive game we don't need to get into that on this podcast um yeah there's a super meat boy 3d just shipped and then yeah phil fish is still out here tinkering and i'm like you know i feel i feel i feel like the one that kept the who here has the healthiest attitude to life yes i feel i feel like it's probably the tinkerer
00:08:14
Speaker
yeah i'd agree with that so wow we got on a massive tangent so we did that's when you started covering games oh yes yes cronius big game that sticks with you oh very very core you write your dissertation um what are some other like landmark games in your personal journey through the industry Ooh, love this, love this. Well, funnily enough, a lot of them are like thinky games, surprisingly. I think recently, when I started writing about thinky games, I realized just how many, like you just described, were landmarks for me. remember playing Return of the Obra Dinn for the first time and being like, this is my favorite game of all time. And I've recommended it to every single person I've met, including my dad, my dad's friends who are all in their like 60s and 70s. They've all loved it. I just think that game is so amazing. So definitely Obra Dinn.
00:09:13
Speaker
I'm trying to think of... If there was any others, i tell you what, recently, Lorelei, another detective game. Incredible. Blew my mind, 2024. And that's when I joined Thinky, actually. i literally just played Lorelei and I was like, I was in the Thinky mood. I was in the the puzzle space and I was, ah. So for me, I think landmark games, it's kind of like,
00:09:35
Speaker
points in my life what in my life where I've like been able to share, but personally share games with other people. So, Return of the Obra Dinn and Lorelei. So many people I knew played Lorelei and like I could really talk to them about it Oh, I'm so happy. Oh, and so i just... For me, I think when I...
00:09:53
Speaker
think about video games that have been landmarks for me. It's always been like those ones, the more social ones, even though those games aren't that social. Like me locked in a room playing Obra Dinn being like, read. Like these games that are just about like massive underlying mystery, which is so funny to go to take it back to Fez.
00:10:14
Speaker
Yes. Of like so many of these games are, I feel like, are picking up a lot of what Fez was putting down.
00:10:24
Speaker
o i feel like it's very instrumental. I feel like it's a lot of games that you might not expect are very referential to Fez in having second layers, third layers. Yes, I agree. Animal Well. I played Animal Well and thought, this is Fez. And you know what? Phil Fish had done that.
00:10:48
Speaker
How many, like, oh, are we swearing on this podcast? We can swear on this podcast. How many fucking years did Phil Fish do that before anyone else? Before Tunic, before in the puzzle space as well. Having like different like layers and depth like different depths to your puzzle game. Like how far do you want to go? Like that's such like a big thing now and a community driven as well. And Phil Fish is over here being like,
00:11:13
Speaker
You know what? If you want to work out what was it? The monoliths? What the hell? Oh my God. Still unsolved. Yes, still unsolved. You're right. get to the end of the game and, or like, like the end of like the adventure and the game just decides to casually reveal every single so sigil you've been seeing through the entire game as an alphabet. Have fun.
00:11:37
Speaker
Oh, and I just think like, like exactly like you said, that is now a precedent within the puzzle space is to, you know, optionally have these like different endings of like, how far would you like to go? You can stop here if you to play the game once or twice, but for those sickos out there, those neurodivergent sickos who are like, no, I'm locked in. Let's go. i'm I'm playing this game to the end. Like, yeah, I just think there's so much more. And I think it started with Fez. Well, maybe not started, but like popularized it potentially. Question mark? I mean, I feel like it's, what do you guys think? Yeah. My, my,
00:12:13
Speaker
I actually haven't talked to Phil about this, but like my assumption is that the legacy like the legacy of this, like if you just keep going back and back and back, like this is like it my if I had to guess, this probably all goes back to of Adventure on the Atari.
00:12:32
Speaker
Oh, okay. This probably goes all the way back on some level and it just keeps getting plussed and plussed and plussed. But I feel like Fez is the one that like blows it up and leaves a massive mark. i Fez is the first time I can remember Reddit getting involved.
00:12:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Like
Secrets and Layers in Game Design
00:12:51
Speaker
I feel like Fez is the first one that becomes a social moment in the industry. Yes, that's a really good point. And i feel I feel like there are other games, and obviously there are games that have secrets, like The Legend of Zelda on NES has secrets. But I feel like it is Fez that blows up as this capital M moment. And if ah with the benefit of hindsight, if I were in the room while Indie Game the movie was being made, I would make a lot of different decisions. But like one of the ones there's like just no reference to this or kind of the inspiration because I that's the the i feel like the Fez,
00:13:32
Speaker
odd we did that That documentary who did everyone dirty. But like the fact that like the Fez story of that is not about organic discovery it with within the game. It's about workplace drama.
00:13:46
Speaker
Yes. And I'm like, that's not the story of that game. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's just not how history would have taken it. um Quick pivot. Alan, I can't believe I've never asked you about this. So great question for the pod. Um...
00:14:03
Speaker
Frog Fractions 2. Frog Fractions 2 had a massive ARG where they they did they did a Kickstarter and the pitch was, ah you won't we're gonna release the game and it's gonna be hidden in another game, have fun.
00:14:18
Speaker
And it eventually it eventually comes out um and it gets the jig is up within like 24 hours of that game coming out, because ah here here's a massive game from Adult Swim Games that no one everyone is being very quiet about for some reason. I wonder what it could possibly be. um But Sokobond was part of that ARG.
00:14:40
Speaker
Yeah. Did we not get into this at all on the Sockobond episode of podcast? I don't think so. I think the Sockobond. Because Harry wasn't involved in adding that, I don't think. Because we patched that in post-release. Yes. um And yeah, like the pitch as I received it was basically like, do you want to be involved in this weird thing? Like I'll give you a symbol that needs to show up at some point. Then it's be something you can do in the game. And when you do that meta puzzle, uh, it will, the it will reveal this other symbol that will be like game specific. And that'll be the, the piece you get from solving this part of the puzzle. Um, and yeah, so we, we, I came up with this puzzle about,
00:15:25
Speaker
been so long, I don't even remember exactly how it was. It was definitely an alternate solution. It was kind a nightmare, ultimate solution. Yeah, it's about making alternate solutions to levels. Whoa. And the funny thing is, with regards to the Frog Fractions 2 ARG, people found this in Sockobond way before the Frog Fractions 2 ARG was announced.
00:15:47
Speaker
oh Oh my gosh. Maybe people found, yeah, I think i think somebody found it and like figured out the solution and like documented it. And so when people were putting the pieces together with like, oh, here's this symbol, let's find all the games. like The solution to Sokobond was just there in a wiki somewhere. and like they's like So nobody no we spent any time engaging with Sokobond because the solution to this meta puzzle was already public information. oh i feel like players are so sharp and quick when it comes to stuff like that you have no chance it's like oh i've had this in my game that's that is that is funny but unfortunate that there wasn't like that kind of side effect benefit but i yeah i think about that era and it's like my first interaction with that was just i believe like a patrick klepek article i think at
00:16:41
Speaker
This must have been when he was at Kotaku still. that yeah just at That was just like, what's with all the weird hands in these indie games? Right, because like people people found the sigil before it was known to be connected with Frog Crouchons 2.
00:16:55
Speaker
Yes, so people were like, what the hell? like Why are multiple games now getting patched like every couple weeks? ah And people, if you look through, especially if you just like look through the source files, you just see this hand.
00:17:10
Speaker
What? Oh, it was in the source files. Well, for some games, yeah. Some games didn't encrypt it or whatever. So it was just like... I mean, the the presence of the sigil was allowed to be figured out, but we we were given like a lot of direction on how to investigate the result image. Yes. So that you couldn't data mine that.
00:17:28
Speaker
Whoa. And so it was just like so... It was so funny. Um... is Is that the most ARG that you've, or ah or like, not even ARG, is that the most like super hidden secret that you've been involved in, Alan?
00:17:43
Speaker
Yeah, it must Because like cosmic Cosmic has the second layer. Yeah, a lot of a lot of our games have secrets or have second layers. Yeah, I was going to ask you both about that. Not recently.
00:17:56
Speaker
But a lot of the older games do. As soon as you started getting producers in, they is started as getting scaled back. What are you talking about? That's there in Electrion Incident. I know. Electrion Incident was a mistake, and that's well documented. Absolutely not a mistake. And then Spooky didn't have it, and Monsters didn't it. I was going to ask about Spooky. Yeah. Ooh, okay. So now I have to go back through all your games and replay them all and find all the secrets and everything. mean, in...
00:18:25
Speaker
In Good Snowman, the hidden layer is just the second half of that game. Like, that's just very... true Like, if you just play that game, like, start so start to true ending. Like, that that is the second layer we're talking about. Cosmic Express is ah littles a little bit for sickos with the monuments.
00:18:42
Speaker
Right, okay. And then... Monsters Expedition doesn't have a second layer so much as it has an open world. oh Yes, yes, yeah. I mean, the snowmen are kind of the second layer. Like, you can go a long time in that game without ever seeing a snowman.
00:18:57
Speaker
Oh, you can beat the game and never see one. And then you find one, and then you look up how many there are, and you see the answer is 160, and then you just scream. Whoa! oh my god like a bit i think i think it's 160 exhibits i don't think it's 160 no no no it's is it okay i i have the answer i uh because because uh we had to document everything everything when it came to playstation
Monsters Expedition and Open World Design
00:19:30
Speaker
so um i could i could find this with like one keystroke in google drive i'm just gonna say
00:19:37
Speaker
ah I was going to literally just type out... Betsy now, listeners. think it's 60, Snowman. ah No, you're right. There there are, I believe, 60 friends.
00:19:50
Speaker
Yeah. 60 friends, you're right, and 160 exhibits. I got those conflated. um Yes, because we needed...
00:20:01
Speaker
the the truth of the matter is we needed more achievements for PlayStation. And so we had one already for like, get all the friends and one for get all the exhibits. And so we made ah incremental ones leading up to that point.
00:20:16
Speaker
Um, So ah the the one for making friends with everyone was is called Cuddle Puddle, and that was in the game since launch. But then ah we added it was like ah we made like social circle, social ladder, social climbing, social networking, and social life for like all of the different friends. And then was like, because there's 160 museum exhibits, we decided that the increments were going tonna be like 40, 80, 120. And yeah, we...
00:20:42
Speaker
and so we yeah we See, I didn't know so many of you guys' games had like secrets and and other levels. Can I ask, maybe this is a redundant question, but like, like why? Is it like as puzzle designers, is it is it just because for fun? I'm really interested this. Because Alan doesn't want to stop designing puzzles.
00:21:03
Speaker
That is so that's really fun. Is that true, Alan? Yeah. Maybe. i mean, so some of it is like a structural thing. it's good to have something that is um kind of a barrier that the non-sickos don't need to go past. Yeah. Um, so, uh, especially for monster expedition, you don't want to put the hardest puzzles in the game, like right in front of people on the critical path because people just bounce. Uh, and so like that game just like layering, like, oh, you solve a an easy puzzle to get to a medium puzzle, to get to a hard puzzle, to get to a really hard puzzle. Um, and then the, the friend is behind the really hard puzzle. Um, that's.
00:21:44
Speaker
kind of makes it so that the game is the perfect difficulty for everyone as long as you're following your natural instinct to like flow through the game um for for other games it's because we'll have like a a cool idea of like oh this would be neat um yeah like a good snowman's heart to build ah I can't remember. We must have talked about how bad with that was added, like, really, really, really late in development. Yes. Oh, was it? It was me and Ben at a conference um at a game festival, and we're just chatting and, like, oh, well, here's here's a random idea. Wouldn't that be fun? And we're just like, oh, yeah, no, I think that would be that would be fun enough, but let's make it happen. cool.
00:22:26
Speaker
And, yeah, that game, like, the the second layer is, like, all about um ah the puzzle entrances and exits and how they join together. um That was really satisfying to design. um Cosmic Express, it was literally just, oh, there's a bunch of levels that have multiple solutions.
00:22:48
Speaker
Is there something interesting we can do there to motivate people to try and find the automate solutions? Yes. And i will I will be honest, I feel like the The Cosmic one is definitely much more sicko than Snowman. And I think that just fundamentally comes down to everything that had been leading up to that point in the game. like Cosmic is just a much harder game than Snowman.
00:23:11
Speaker
But Snowman's... I love the concept of Snowman's like back half. But it definitely feels like trial and error busy work at a certain point.
00:23:23
Speaker
Like, it's nice to design, like, I guess full spoilers for Snowman. ah Like, you are going between the ah daytime and the night and the dream, and you have to...
00:23:41
Speaker
align everything correctly for the day in the daytime world to make sure that the dream like the path is open and so there's a lot of like going into the dream seeing what you need go back into the daytime and get and knowing what the outcome of the puzzle needs to be and then executing on it but then you go back then you rinse and repeat yeah and I feel like
00:24:10
Speaker
in cosmic, it's it's a little deeper, but I feel like it's a little more natural. Oh, so it's like in every game you always have like a different approach almost, it sounds like.
00:24:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of just listening to what the game wants to be. that's one reason why there's nothing in Spook Express, because there was nothing calling to me saying like, yeah okay, here's here's the right thing for a secret.
00:24:38
Speaker
Oh, okay. We could have just done the same thing as in Cosmic Express. That would have been very easy to have the same kind of like, okay, well, we're going to design puzzles that have alternate solutions and um we're going to add something else that pushes you towards, oh yeah, this is this specific alternate solution that unlocks this thing. um But I think it would have felt...
00:25:01
Speaker
it felt It felt unneeded. it didn't feel like it was adding anything that wasn't already there in Cosmic Express. And just doing it again for the sake of it didn't really appeal. um And also not doing it as a very practical production decision.
00:25:15
Speaker
Oh, yeah. It definitely... It makes the game better. it like it like It almost objectively does. But from a production perspective, which is where I have to view a lot of this, like a lot of big a lot of production is being the bad guy on a project. Yeah, I can imagine. The director says this is what the game wants and the producer has to say the game can shut up.
00:25:40
Speaker
um But it the the thing about secrets is that Only a few games, I feel like, sell more copies because of the secrets.
00:25:54
Speaker
Right. I think Tune sells more copies. I think Fez sells more copies. Animal Well. Animal Well, definitely. i don't even know to to what extent Blueprints sells copies based on anything after the first credits. i think Yeah, I agree with that. I think Blueprints sells its copies based on the mystery of the first loop.
00:26:15
Speaker
Yes. And yeah, I mean, i don't think... Blueprints is an interesting one. i I feel like the vibe of the depths of the secrets does contribute something.
00:26:27
Speaker
And I don't think if it was just the first layer, it would have the same level of vibe. Maybe. But I think you're that there's definitely something that like the the secrets themselves...
00:26:42
Speaker
Like, I think to some level, like make the game worse. Like not entirely. I think the existence of the secrets is helpful and what the secrets are is, yeah. And then like, think... Well, I guess the secrets in that game could be better and it would be a better game.
00:26:56
Speaker
That's kind of where, that's where I'm at. Is like, you look at this and if, let's say for Spooky, ah if If there was a pitch of we're going to add the same alternate solution style secrets that we had in ah Cosmic to this game, ah which this conversation, frankly, never came up in a production call that I was a part of. um But if it did, my first my first question would have been, um does this game sell one more copy?
00:27:30
Speaker
For this work that we're doing. is Is the work that we're doing. And I'm not i'm not sitting here saying like. We only need to have four worlds. Because on a spreadsheet. Having three worlds in the game. ah Is not enough. But five and four. There's no difference. only do four because that saves there I'm not saying I'm approaching everything from that perspective. Like at some point you make the game. That the game needs to be. yes But yes when it comes to like plussing up.
00:27:56
Speaker
it's like, okay, does this add does this add significant value that potentially recoups in any meaningful way? And it's like it's just the hard part about the business side of it.
00:28:09
Speaker
so i think And when the answer is, no, this secret probably doesn't affect the amount of money this game makes, the answer is you make even more secrets until the answer is yes. i know No, no. Alan is joking for for people who can't tell the difference. oh But like I think Monsters, the answer is yes. Monsters sells way more copies by being open world.
00:28:37
Speaker
Yes, I was going to say the open world aspect of it makes people poke in every single corner. Exactly. I think i think that that to i say that that game does not... I think even with the with all the mechanics still there, if that game does not actually explore the edge cases that you need to explore to get to the all of the exhibits, like let alone the friends, like almost half the exhibits in that game are optional exhibits.
00:29:06
Speaker
yeah I feel like if you get to the end of the critical path, which was designed for... Bluntly, it was designed for people who don't play puzzle games to be able to get to the end of comfortably.
00:29:18
Speaker
Yes. If you get to the end of that, and there's no...
00:29:25
Speaker
Like, there's just really nothing more. i don't think that game gets put in the pantheon of all-time great puzzle games. Interesting. Because I guess from my perspective as well, is like, if we bring it back to Animal Well, yeah Animal Well was built dot day one with Billy Basso when I'm, this game is going layers. From day one, I'm going to have multiple layers and this is where. So when you guys are deciding that in your games, is it a dot day one thing? Or like you said, Alan, it's like, I have more ideas, so we're just going to keep going. like Oh no, it's never a day one thing. It's always, scope pre it's alls always, ah. Like monsters had been scope creeped by the time i joined the project, which was yeah ah seven months before ship.
00:30:14
Speaker
But ah um even even then, like there is a clear delineation point in the in the original development of that game where it gets blown out. And a big part of that is that game signs with Apple Arcade and suddenly has a budget, like a capital B budget. Yeah. It's like, hell yeah, let's ah make this game even more in-depth and longer with more puzzles. And i I think even without that, if we had been if we'd been able to make the game on our own budget, I think...
00:30:45
Speaker
it probably still would have had the same structure and like there would still would have been secrets. There still would have been optional puzzles. I think that stuff, the like the game already wanted to go in that direction. but yeah, Apple Arcade gave us the budget to like make it at the, like without making so many sacrifices or making so many compromises.
00:31:06
Speaker
And also like, if this makes no sense that's fine but like does it thematically play into like the story of the game often so does that ever come into it i'm just thinking in terms of like so in in monsters it kind of felt part of the story some of the extra parts so that's what made me think oh maybe this is like a a day one situation wow i mean the story wasn't there from day one narrative framing wasn't day one really whoa No, that that that came in ah to try and put any level of cohesion around the mechanics. Pip came in, right? she wrote Yeah.
00:31:42
Speaker
Oh, love Pip. Pip is wonderful. the um For anyone who is listening to this episode of the podcast, and ah I have, but based on conversations at the Thinky Games meetup at ah GDC, I have it on good authority that the people who listen to this podcast ah hunt and peck for episodes that interest them.
00:32:02
Speaker
um rather than listen to everything start to finish yeahll go back and listen to that Pip episode it is it is so good and it is so interesting and it gets really in depth about how all of the narrative structure gets free got framed in Monsters Expedition yeah cool love that I'll give that a listen too um Yeah, no, but um honestly, I feel like Apple Arcade is low-key responsible for so many wonderful things about Monsters Expedition. ah And I'm not just talking about like the budget, but like
00:32:37
Speaker
I feel, i mean, Alan, maybe you maybe you disagree with revisionist history, but I don't think that the touch controls would have felt so native or so, like... I don't know if there would be a touch version. Yeah, like, the idea of um this game would have been made PC first, so it would have been using traditional Sokoban controls up, down, left, right,
00:33:04
Speaker
The fact that... I mean, I guess the the controls on mobile are very much riffing off the mobile controls for a good scenario that's hard to build.
00:33:15
Speaker
They are, but it's it's like so expanded. For people who have not played the mobile version of The Monsters Expedition, first of all, ah great excuse. ah You can either go download that or on Switch, it has touch native controls, asterisk. And on a PC, it has you can go into the settings and enable mouse mode.
00:33:34
Speaker
um I think that the The touch control is being so thought through that it is almost like a completely different experience to play that game where you have ah you have what are called ghost logs where you can stand in front of a tree and you can swipe before committing and letting go of the finger in any direction.
00:33:59
Speaker
And it will show you the outcome of what's going to happen before you commit to it. And then the move gets executed when you let go. And that is so elegant. It is so elegant. It was not easy, but it is so elegant in ah outcome that I really feel like it opens the doors up to a lot of people who might not have considered playing a Sokoban game.
00:34:23
Speaker
Oh, it is a nice, it's it's a nice way to ease you into the the the space of mind you need to be in when playing a Sokoban game. Because those it can be it can be difficult. So just having a little bit of help I think is, that's so such a cool way of doing it. Yeah. For sure. um Yeah, no, i'm I'm very happy with how all of that turned out. ah That game would not have been localized if it weren't for Apple Arcade. So if you played that game in a non-English language, Apple Arcade, that game wouldn't have had cloud saves. That game wouldn't have had the museum expansion update, the post-release update that added in, like, another 150 puzzles.
00:35:07
Speaker
Whoa. my gosh. theres there's There's a lot of that game that like Apple Arcade made that game better. Great. Money makes things better. It's not even just money. It is it is like a yeah ah structure helps make things better. Of course. Yeah.
00:35:23
Speaker
So talk to me about thinking games.com.
Thinky Games and Genuine Coverage
00:35:27
Speaker
Thank you. Well, for those, for those who aren't aware of thinking, thinking games.com, why not? ah It's the best place to get all your puzzle recommendations. We're a puzzle website. Second after Thinky Third Thursday.
00:35:41
Speaker
where can you read Thinky Third Thursday? Oh. On thinkygames.com. It's cross posted right there. it is. um but yeah, over at Thinky Games, we have a database full of all the upcoming puzzle games that you can think of. Well, Thinky Games that can think of. We have articles. We have a Thinky Games Direct we should do every single year. The Direct is about to come. It's in May this year, I think, at some point. Not confirmed yet, but it is coming. Yes. and We have Thinkie Awards. We have so much going on. We have a newsletter. If you love puzzle games, it's the place to be.
00:36:15
Speaker
ah We cover everything. Yeah. No, I'm... I am going to be ah like fully fully honest here and say that i I need to go to the website more.
00:36:28
Speaker
i go to the website frequently, but also I think just like working and existing in this space, and especially like talking to Alan all the time, it feels it feels like I'm like, eh, there's not that much...
00:36:42
Speaker
And like I follow it on socials and I'm on the email and I'm like, I'm im like, you know, I'm all in all the right places. But every time go to the landing page, I'm just like, oh, I could just spend an hour here. Yeah, there's a lot. It's ah it's really wonderful how much ah we're quite a small team. There's like five of us. And the fact that we run like all of this and the Thinky Dailies, which is a daily puzzle game. We're in season two now, which is fantastic.
00:37:07
Speaker
Um, there's just so much to explore and look at. If you like reading about Thinky Games, we have articles. If you just want to browse, like you're not really a one for like reading. Um, we have just a database you can scroll through. Like there's just a something for everyone, which is what I really love about it. And I think it's what other websites really aren't doing. I feel like we're actively helping people find games instead of just telling people about interesting games. We're like,
00:37:34
Speaker
We're throwing as many games at you as you at you as we possibly can. So yeah, the the homepage is bursting with ah so much. That kind of let's throw a bunch of games at you. There's kind of a vibe there that reminds me of IndieGames.com from a decade ago or something. That's like not really what games websites are these days, mostly. Yeah, I i think...
00:38:04
Speaker
It should be. Well, yeah. Well, I was literally about get for that. think Jank is really good for that. Yeah, I think a lot of like modern editorial or, you know, from working there and not anymore, you're slave to to Google clicks, to google to what Google wants each day. And a lot of time in that space, it's what news stories are going to be, ah readers are to be clicking on, what articles are they to clicking on, what games are they going to be clicking on?
00:38:32
Speaker
So yeah, puzzle games, indie games get overlooked a lot. That doesn't mean journalists don't care about them. It just means that people aren't interested. And so these smaller publications like Jank, which is a bunch of ex PC gamer journalists, and I think RPS journalists as well, um we're just creating these new spaces where we can kind of, we're not earning a lot of money from them, but it's ah ah it's it's the start of like returning to that idea of like, we just want to recommend people good games and not have to follow the structures and rules of our internet overlord, Google and Chrome and everyone else. And thinking is exactly the same. like that Because we're backed by Karina, we really can. We have the space and our like opportunity to like really talk about games that we like instead of like what is trending, what's popular, this, that, and the other. So yeah, I'm really proud. I'm really proud of that.
00:39:24
Speaker
um Yeah, I'm very thankful to Joe and Luis who work on it. Corey, our news writer. Orianna, our database editor. Like, yeah, love them all. Are you involved with Thinky Dailies at all? I'm not. So yeah, my so with me and the website, I'm more strictly editorial. I hire freelancers. I choose what games we write about in length. I choose previews and stuff. So in terms of the database, that's Orianne and Kay handles our socials. We're all like siloed into different responsibilities, but mine is strictly the editorial output. Like what are we writing about daily? That's what I'm doing.
00:40:03
Speaker
What is it like writing without advertisers? Oh my God, it's amazing. Like what is, like, what is, mean, feel like that was probably a massive part of like the appeal of starting thinkygames.com. But like, what is, i think,
00:40:25
Speaker
Top level, because i think a lot of our listeners are not familiar with the current state of games writing. But then for me, just as someone who has done this, like very, very nitty gritty, like what is the difference in day to day?
00:40:39
Speaker
So, oh gosh. So I think like, I'm thinking now about top like websites. I'm i'm talking about PC Gamer, GameSpot, IGN, the big ones. A lot of the time you will be sticking to date, like daily deadlines. um You're looking for news, what to write about. Essentially what is going to get readers engaged with your work. And like I said before, a lot of the times,
00:41:02
Speaker
That's the big games. GTA 6. It's delayed. Everyone pops off because everyone wants to know why GTA 6 is delayed. The new Fortnite update. What Roblox, what fucked up thing Roblox is doing? Like these are big stories that people are engaging with. And so you'd be really looking to cover big games, big news, just anything that is popular essentially. And um I think the difference between websites like Thinky Games is that Because we're not driven by growth as much in terms of clicks and newsletter signups and everything.
00:41:38
Speaker
In terms of what we cover, it's because I still know I'm getting paid at the end of each week and like that that structure. And I know I'm not getting fired or there's not going to be cutbacks because the site isn't hitting targets or whatever.
00:41:51
Speaker
I feel one, secure my own job security. And also i can just write from a a perspective of like, I'm someone who enjoys gaming and this is what I'm interested in. i think you will be interested in as well. Instead of trying to guess what is going to get ah what's going to drive traffic. And that's that's a huge world of difference. Like being in control of what I do day to day instead of like in the past where I've been at certain websites and I have like three or four games I have to hit that day in terms of like a news story. Like this, sound it sounds kind of fucked up and it definitely is. And that's why these more...
00:42:31
Speaker
like so like places like Thinky,
High-Pressure Game Reviewing
00:42:33
Speaker
it's more from the heart than from a business perspective. Because at the end of the day, I mean, that's what websites are. It's a business. People need to get paid. People need money. like but I'm just thank thankful that Thinky has Karina to ah to back it instead of like, yeah, as being...
00:42:49
Speaker
like having to drive for like pick up stories that will drive traffic which then makes us more successful then we grow and oh i'm just so happy that i'm not in those shackles anymore is that is that okay ah you there's like a pause is that surprising like how you oh not surprising gosh gosh i So when i ah for a large amount of the time that I was writing about games, it Where were you working? Do you mind saying?
00:43:23
Speaker
I unfortunately do mind saying. So I'm going to... okay you'll you'll understand by the end You'll understand by the end of my sentence. um um So it wasn't that I...
00:43:36
Speaker
had to interface with clicks because a large part of my time on writing online or writing was not online. It was in a print newspaper.
00:43:47
Speaker
Oh, I see. we yeah With daily readership, which meant daily output. Whoa. Okay. Yeah. and And print lead times. So how was that for you? Sounds stressful.
00:44:00
Speaker
like I got so good at playing games so quickly Yeah. You still have this skill. I still have this skill. I play games faster than almost anyone else that I know. many stories about how she plays Breath of the Wild is just ridiculous. Oh yeah, no. Oh, really? I got all of the shrines and all of the all of the all of the locations, I got like a 100% check mark on on everything Korok Seeds in Tears the Kingdom, and my first playthrough was 26 hours.
00:44:31
Speaker
Whoa. am a very fast player of games. And this is a skill that you develop when ah you are expected to put out four reviews a day.
00:44:43
Speaker
Or sorry, four reviews a week. you You review four games a week. Have fun. It's interesting with, did you ever feel like, because i I've never been, I've never had to do anything that quickly, but in terms of consuming video games, did you ever have that point where you were just like, I'm not even like playing these games in any sort of depth. I'm just trying to get through them as fast as possible because I have a deadline to hit. Because that's something I dealt with. so really? Yeah.
00:45:09
Speaker
So the beautiful thing is that there were, um, It was me and one other person. And there were more or less directives about tentpole games.
00:45:20
Speaker
So yeah big, big games usually, um you know, if a game is spending more than $5 million dollars on its marketing budget, it's probably a target for review.
00:45:31
Speaker
And that includes like a lot of ah first party Nintendo, PlayStation, Xbox games. It includes like, you know, Activision games its like EA, Ubisoft, the usual suspects.
00:45:42
Speaker
But then If I'm playing a game and especially if I play like a narrative game and I feel like I need to sit with it for a minute, genuinely what I would do is I would go to the front page of Steam and grab a game to fill a quota.
00:45:59
Speaker
So I feel like we actually got a lot of games got covered because a lot of other games needed more time. Right, interesting. Which was a very weird and roundabout way of of deciding what games to cover. But that was... i don't even think Alan's heard any of this before. ah No.
00:46:16
Speaker
But, like, that was that's how a lot of that process worked. um there was also There were also a few um spike reviews.
00:46:28
Speaker
Oh, really? Which I would describe as ah when the... the ah public relations team for the publisher ah thinks that the game is going to be terrible and actively refuses to send copies oh yeah i know exactly i'm like well all right all right so they're trying to hide something here yeah yeah well there's no reviews online when the game is released yeah My all-time favorite was um one of the Assassin's Creed. I think it was Unity. ah
00:47:05
Speaker
Their embargo, their review embargo, was 12 hours after launch. After. Yes. um In order to get access to an early copy of the game, you had to agree to not publish your review. The first 12 hours, I think it was a technical disaster. And so the first, like the first 12 hours are just gamers being like, I don't know why reviewers aren't talking about this, but this game is terrible. And then all the reviews come online and then it's like, oh, I see. Yeah. This was planned. Yeah.
00:47:35
Speaker
Yeah, that's ah not unusual these days as well.
From Writing to Game Development
00:47:40
Speaker
It's very funny, but like it's it's a big part of like why um I have a lot of strong feelings about press kits and embargoes and everything about reviews just because I was in those minds for so many years.
00:47:58
Speaker
Interesting. Ooh. Why did you leave? Uh... A lot of reasons. Yeah. um One, you really get burnt out doing that for a few years, especially yeah at that clip.
00:48:12
Speaker
um The other thing about ah print, especially print ah newspaper, which is where it was. Yes. ah yeah The readership doesn't.
00:48:25
Speaker
ah take holidays in the same way that like online readership can yeah like a lot of ah a lot of online outlets will like take the winter off and um you can prepare articles for when you're aware prepare articles especially yeah especially game of the year is like a big thing to like pad out those weeks um but uh that's not how print works no you those pages are going to get filled When I worked at Play Magazine, um that because that's, I guess it's not like um you were working to Weekly or Daily, right? so I was working to Daily, yeah. To Daily. So with Monthly, it's interesting how I first joined the team and my boss, Oscar, I love him, Oscar Taylor Kent, he works for Games Radar now. He was um he was saying, oh yeah, we do 13 magazines a year. And I thought he was joking. I was like, oh, you mean 12, right? He was like, no, no, 13.
00:49:18
Speaker
We do one a month and then an extra one. Yeah. at the end of the year and i was like you're joking what the hell um print is so different than online i love working for a magazine oh my god so so that's that's kind of the thing is i was young it was my first thing in the industry yeah i it gave me a ton of breadth i think and it also built a lot of Friendships and connections that I still keep to this day. um Like there are just people in this industry that I met that i respect that I have then been able to wrap around and get to work with.
00:49:58
Speaker
Yeah. um And so it's it's very... Like, i don't know. Like, we were about Fez earlier. Like, I was digging through my inbox a few weeks ago, and I found my review code for Fez. Oh my god, a review code?
00:50:19
Speaker
what What system was it for? 360. That was the last platform. I started in 07. So like i was like Limbo was the next year. like I was there for like all of that.
00:50:35
Speaker
um And ah it just made me so tired. and It was 2013 that I decided i should start figuring out how like how to make games. And so I made games.
00:50:50
Speaker
I made a couple games ah start to finish to like learn the process. And then quickly realized that the thing that I liked the most was everything but the actual creation of the game. That's interesting. So as you were leaving, that's when I started in 2013, maybe 2014, when started my new games. It's funny. I was very... on this was a This was a smart decision. So Pass to Ren was very intelligent. um I kept it going on the side.
00:51:17
Speaker
um i I just scaled back my commitment. And I was like, I'm just going to be very, very, very, very attuned to conflict of interest. Yeah. But I kept it going in the back because I was like, until I can, I feel like there might be a stable career for me in games.
00:51:35
Speaker
Yeah. I'm not going to give up a paycheck. Yes, 100%. And so there, yeah, there were, it it i I kept it going for quite a while ah in in the grand scheme of things. There were like, um but it just kept scaling back and scaling back and scaling back. And now I don't do it anymore. Thank goodness. I couldn't imagine.
00:51:57
Speaker
balancing another on top of all the other jobs I do. But no, it's, and I, it's, it's funny. I still, I, every like once or twice a year, I still like write a guest article or or appear on a podcast or something. And I was just like, eh, I mean, i still play all the games. Like you, You can take the you can date the game's writing out of the... ah You can take Saran out of the game's writing, but you can't take the game's writing out of Saran. Yeah. like I still play a lot of games, and I play a lot of games very quickly.
00:52:23
Speaker
And so... And I have, through the years, refined my ability to come up with a take very quickly that I will not regret. There's so many like instances these days, especially like...
00:52:36
Speaker
when it comes to like social or political topics in a game, where like I will like lock in on something like immediately and be like, this is this a problem because X, Y, and z And then like every like the game comes out and gets like a 95 Metacritic, and then like two years later, everyone's like, that didn't age well, did it?
00:52:52
Speaker
yeah i was like... You could have thought about that the first time. as a journalist, it's funny because you do have to make an opinion quickly. You have to decide quickly what your opinion is and your analysis has to be yeah pretty
Puzzle Games' Intrinsic Appeal
00:53:05
Speaker
sharp. So i'm I'm the same as you. I'm thankful that I have that skill now.
00:53:11
Speaker
Because I think before I would, I'd quite like a lot of things. I'd be like, this is nice. This is great. I'm having a great time. And now I'm like, oh God, there's nothing I like anymore. That's why I like puzzle games. Puzzle games is the one genre where I was like, I pretty much, I really like a lot of this. Like there's like, I do find that puzzle games in particular tend to I just gravitate towards them in terms of like how they're made and how well they're made. and depth on there's ah there's a pureness There's a pureness to puzzle games. yeah But what I mean is that there are so many games that throw up a lot of abstractions.
00:53:47
Speaker
if like There's a lot of games that focus a lot on world building and narrative and core game loop. And I'm not saying any of that is bad. I love games in all different genres.
00:53:58
Speaker
yeah Some of my like... I'm not going to say that. That sounds wrong. ah There are some my favorite games from like the last year. like One of them was, and this is speaking of games with problematic content, Death Stranding 2. Oh, okay. That game also just hit at a time where the post-game of that game is basically just a truck sim.
00:54:20
Speaker
Oh, I love a truck sim. And so yeah i just like, I just put on podcasts and zoned out and like that game, that game is about like restoring roads and structures and building zip lines for deliveries in a post apocalypse.
00:54:34
Speaker
Why can't it just be about that? i would have played it if it was about that. That is what it's about. Yeah, and then all the other crap. tried to play the first one. Oh, so I don't even like the first one. ah Maybe give the second one a go then. Maybe I should give the second one a go. it It's But like...
00:54:51
Speaker
Slight tangent. Yes, tangent. But like, I like a game that is just like about core game loop. But puzzles are so like, what I think what you're getting at is like puzzle games are so pure that it is about like really digging in to these are the mechanics.
00:55:07
Speaker
This is why you would use the mechanics. I have set up experiences that I want you to have with the mechanics. Yeah. The only way to get through this room is to have this specific experience with the mechanics.
00:55:22
Speaker
Have fun. Yeah, absolutely. We believe we name that this interaction with this mechanic is a fun and satisfying thing. And being able to get to the point where you need to execute on that and figure out what you need to do is a fun journey.
00:55:37
Speaker
And that is a puzzle game. Would you agree with that, Alan, as well? As someone who... oh I mean, puzzle games are good just because they're the only good genre. I mean, I was going to come out this from a different angle.
00:55:51
Speaker
um But no i mean, I, I look at this and I really, really do love a lot of where this comes down, like what it comes down to.
00:56:07
Speaker
um But it's not the only again, it's by no means the only genre I play. It's it's not even my favorite genre. It's like my second favorite genre.
00:56:17
Speaker
ah Oh, yeah. I'm a musician. i was I've also been a music teacher. I've lived a lot of I've worn a lot of hats. So rhythm game is number one for me. I thought you were going to say long-ass RPGs were your favorite. No, no, no. My favorite franchise is a franchise of long-ass RPGs, but my favorite genre is rhythm
Gaming Genre Preferences
00:56:37
Speaker
games. ah The new rhythm heaven it is going to go very hard in this household. I saw that!
00:56:42
Speaker
I literally, on my Switch 2, I saw the little thumbnail for that. I'm so excited. That's going to go so hard in my household. how How the hell is that game only $40? Anyways. Oh, no. ah what What are the economics of that? That game's not going to sell a lot of copies. Why would they not increase the price? Anyways. So...
00:56:59
Speaker
so Yes, we have been going off on so many tangents. We have! We still have so many things I wanted to cover. Yeah, Alan, ah we have, ah we have an, in i'm I'm looking at this um bullet point on our list of things that you want to cover that just says, Alan is the reason she got the job at Thinking Games. Yes! i mean, that's not a long story, but yeah, I mean, it kind of,
00:57:24
Speaker
and Also goes to, I wanted to talk about your podcast, but your podcast is the reason you got the job at Thinker Games, because I listened to your podcast IndieVenture. thank And I was like listening to you talk and like, oh, this person likes puzzle games, her. And it was about the same time that Jo was talking about hiring somebody at Thinker Games. So I was like, hey, you know who just recently got lost her job and would be great at this. Yes, so I have to officially, this is my official on record. Thank you to Alan for getting me my job at Thinking Games and changing my career trajectory forever. Thank you, Alan.
00:58:03
Speaker
ah No, no problem. Just ah doing the Lord's work here. But yeah, I wanted to chat more about your podcast. um if If people have enjoyed listening to this and like enjoyed the energy of this podcast, should definitely listen to Indie Venture.
00:58:21
Speaker
Oh, thank you. yeah um i I don't know if you noticed, I have a lot of energy, a lot of passion when I talk about games and stuff. So times that by by three for IndieVenture. It's me, Liam and Rebecca. We all used to work at Rock Paper Shotgun. We all left for various different reasons. And the one thing that we took with us was ah the podcast. So when we were working at RPS, it was called IndieScovery. And now we rebranded to Indie Venture.
00:58:48
Speaker
um And yeah, we've been doing it for, oh my God, it would be almost two years at this point, ah not including the other podcasts. So yeah, we talk about indie games and indie trends and yeah but there's a lot of energy. There's a lot of energy. It's not it's not um a podcast you want to ah listen to if you're trying to get to sleep. That's I'll say. You will not be getting... a Yeah, not good for that. But yeah, like I said, high energy.
Podcasting Freedom and Indie Focus
00:59:16
Speaker
ah But thank you for listening, Alan. That's so nice. That's so nice of you. And was an easy decision to like take it like forward from Yeah.
00:59:27
Speaker
Yeah, so basically with RPS, I was the first one to to leave. And so we had to decide what we were going to do And I think immediately all three of us were like, we to continue this.
00:59:39
Speaker
Like, we'll stop it at RPS and need to continue this in some sort of capacity. And it just so happened that I think Liam left next and then we started recording the other um indie venture. And then um with Rebecca kind of just hanging out our RPS and then eventually... She moved to from RPS to VG247, a sister website. And so then we could officially just start a podcast. But honestly, it was very much like, we need to keep this going. We're having so much fun.
01:00:09
Speaker
um We love talking about indie games. And so... You know, it was just the easiest decision in the world to be like, we need to start something. We need to keep keep this going. And it's been so much fun. Having a podcast is great, right, guys? Like you just get to yap and have a good time and then publish it. People listen. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of similar to what you were saying earlier about Thinky Games. like Like Thinky Games doesn't have a an ad-driven model. And so you can kind of just talk about games. And I feel like podcasts or like some podcasts are the same thing.
01:00:42
Speaker
yeah I was gonna say, depends. Not all podcasts, certainly not. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. No.
01:00:52
Speaker
That honestly gave me flashbacks. I was like, whoa. This podcast is sponsored by Hentz.ai. No. Not Hentz.ai. The AI ones are the worst ones. ah No, this is ah this a long-running bit on this podcast ah that got cut for a bunch of episodes until it finally didn't get cut, ah where yeah it's just like the worst ah URL, and it's just Hentai.ai. No.
01:01:18
Speaker
dot ai but but Oh my god! oh Just, the Nintendo eShop is brought to you by HentaiBoyfriend.ai God!
01:01:33
Speaker
No, so that's i This is where I reveal that I've been taking sponsorships behind your back, Alan. All of those spam. I don't listen to the episodes as they go out on the feed. Yeah, all of those spam emails that keep coming in being like, we'll 5x your reach. Or like, what do you mean you've been going for 50 episodes and you haven't broken out yet? Like all of these spam. horrible emails. Because you have to put an email in the XML for Apple to recognize it.
01:02:04
Speaker
o So the email actually has to go somewhere? We've had a bunch of those gross emails. Don't get me wrong, I'd love a sponsorship on IndieVentures. So if anyone's listening, all this just like i'd I'd love to get paid some sort of money for it. Also, I need a new microphone. ThinkyGames.com sponsor IndieVentures.
01:02:21
Speaker
like Oh, But yeah, no, no no nothing yet. Fangamer hasn't reached out yet, unfortunately.
Cocoon Book and Game Design
01:02:28
Speaker
That's our top one. Please, Fangamer. I mean, I know people at Fangamer.
01:02:33
Speaker
Oh my God, link me up. Please, please. i love you. I buy so much stuff. Yeah, I, I, ah it's it's funny. i I'm very linked to that world because I ran, I did a year and a half as head of physical games at IM8Bit. Oh my God. youve You do have many hats. Yeah. You have a hat shop. Yeah. So when I was there, i was uh,
01:03:00
Speaker
I was in charge of what projects? Grim Fandango, Stray, Cuphead, Psychonauts 2. A few other games, Cozy Grove, Artful Escape. like there's a ah Love Cozy Grove. Outer Wilds.
01:03:16
Speaker
That was a big one. that was and That was really fun to catch up with that team at the Thinking Games meetup at GDC. Oh, were they there? Yes, they were. I would have loved to have gone to GDC. It was me.
01:03:29
Speaker
there There was like there's just this there's like a circle that had formed that was me, ah the outer some people from the Outer Wilds team, and some people from Cyan. Oh, okay. and so And the Outer Wilds team was geeking the fuck out over Mist and Riven. And the Cyan team was geeking the fuck out over Outer Wilds. that It was a mutual geek out. Yes, it was so fun to just sit sit there and just like be a part of. And then just like from the the Outer Wilds team were like, ah, we worked with you and I and Maitbit. And then the Saiyan team was like, oh my gosh, you're with Drachnik.
01:04:09
Speaker
Yes! And so it was just like a fun, like, you both know me from different contexts, but I'm just gonna insert myself. Um, no, yeah, i i have I have worn so many hats. I mean, I was at i was at Astra for a year. Oh, yeah. ah Speaking of Carita initiatives. Yes. um I was head of production there. And then.
01:04:37
Speaker
And you haven't talked about your new job on the podcast yet. Do you want to or we can cut this out? I haven't talked about my new job. Yeah, sure. ill I'll talk about it. It's public. It's on my LinkedIn now. Well, congrats on the new job.
01:04:49
Speaker
Yeah, I work at a company called Plastic Fern Studios now. This is a company that does QA, porting, and codev. ah The most recent shipped project is ah a game called Dispatch for PS5. Oh, cool. Never heard of it. Yeah, I was in charge of the PS5 version of that. I i was basically the PS5 lead um for that whole skew of the game. But...
01:05:17
Speaker
ah Plastic Fern has also worked with Dracknack before. If you've played Cosmic Express, Patrick's Parabox, or Luck Digital on Nintendo Switch, that's Plastic Fern. Ooh, cool!
01:05:30
Speaker
um And then if you played ah Monsters Expedition on iOS, ah that was QA tested by Plastic Fern. ah Hell yeah. are you So you're enjoying it then?
01:05:42
Speaker
how about ah I mean, is it in days? It's funny. I have been contracting with them for a few years and yeah did Dispatch under contract. I was like a subcontractor where the developer and publisher of Dispatch brought in Plastic Fern and then Plastic Fern brought me in.
01:06:02
Speaker
Oh, yeah. But I am a full-time w two employee as of like three weeks ago at time of recording awesome yay yeah it's it's it's pretty recent but uh it's a big reason why the uh podcast intro keen-eyed listeners will notice that has gone from the producer at dracneck and friends to a producer at dracneck and friends to from dracneck and friends Oh, well, that that was your the hidden layer. Write in if you noticed and predicted. Yes, predicted that it was because ah now i I've scaled back a little bit at Track Naked at France. I'm still still on the podcast um for for people who missed the episodes. Still hustling a little at GDC for us. Yeah, still hustling at GDC on behalf of Drack Naked and Friends. um
01:06:55
Speaker
is Yeah, if if the podcasts I've not been on have not been because of the scale back. It is just, it is sometimes I'm just like physically ill. I think season change is very hard. ah But, no, the um yeah, it's it's fun. I'm still working on...
01:07:13
Speaker
i some top level stuff with Drac Neck outside of the podcast. So like, uh, we've recently announced he who watches and I've been, I've been doing some, I was so excited with that announcement guys. Oh my God. Oh, it was so exciting. I'm yes. I, I feel like there is just a luxury of Alan being like such a trusted name in this space that like,
01:07:39
Speaker
Luck Digital and He Who Watches are like two games. And honestly, like the console version of Patrick's Parabox and Harp Peaks. These are games that are like big wins that Drakman can associate with because these games are really, really, really good.
01:07:56
Speaker
Yes, so good. Woo! Yes, Dreknex in a good place. I'm not leaving because of any bad blood and the proof and is in the pudding on that one of me continuing to host the podcast. ah Can you imagine if you just brought all the drama out now?
01:08:13
Speaker
It's all because of that secret ending to an incident, Alan. mean, that would be fair, honestly.
01:08:26
Speaker
I've told the story, but the the story goes that Mosley's expedition ships uh alan everyone else starts winding off the project alan asks me to conduct exit interviews so i do exit interviews with everyone and then i ask alan uh what about me and he's like i don't know and i said what do you mean and he's like do you want to keep working with me because so there's definitely stuff for you to do and i basically at that point decided that i'll stick with druckneck as long as they'll have me And um so then in the next year, we shipped like five Switch games. Yeah, the next year was very busy. But then I've like... I, MAPIT, and Astra, and now Plastic Fern, are like all full-time, like, W2, like...
01:09:10
Speaker
full-time ah jobs, insurance, like max hours, everything. And i I've stuck with Draknek on the side through literally all of it. so yeah And you did not have to No, no, I've had multiple off-wraps. I don't have dirt on you. No, I've had multiple off ramps, but I'm like, no, yeah I just, I love this team. I love the creative a vision so much.
01:09:32
Speaker
I just, you know, it's just one of my favorite places that I've ever worked. And so I'm like, I don't want, i don't want to leave. You can't make Yes. When you find that place, you hold on to it. I mean, Alan can make me, he can say you're done. I'm not going to pay you anymore, but ah no one else can make me.
01:09:47
Speaker
No. Oh, that's so nice. But yeah, no, I'm working on a bunch of fun stuff ah at Plastic Fern. I cannot talk about any of it, especially the beauty of ah these aren't even our games. So it's other people's NDAs. Yes. Yeah, maybe keep a lid on that. Yes, but... ah Fun work. It's great team.
01:10:13
Speaker
If you are if you're listening and you're an indie developer or especially a publisher and you need QA porting or code dev for your game, ah Plastic Fern Studios dot org or not dot org dot com dot com dot com. And if you need someone to play your game and tell you why it's good or bad, maybe hire me. Yes. I'm sorry. If you need consultant. Yes. The.org is funny because someone ripped off our website and is like trying to like poach clients.
01:10:42
Speaker
Oh, no. And they registered.org. Okay. You need a publisher. Don't go to.org. Don't go to.org because I was just thinking about that last night because that that's a struggle of like, oh, lawyers, time to get involved.
01:11:00
Speaker
ah Yeah, all three of us, we can ah contribute something. If you need a consultant, I'm here. If you need a port person. Yes, if you need if you need a thinking game featured on Steam, talk to al reach out to Alan, I hear.
01:11:17
Speaker
I keep saying this on YouTube. If you need your game to become visible, contact Callum. Yeah, there was like a ah a how to market a game video that just had like multiple, multiple, multiple bits about like mentioning me by name, which was weird. Wow. Yeah, just like, yeah here's your um like...
01:11:38
Speaker
If you're making a puzzle game, you just got to pitch it to Alan Hazelden for the three of a publisher. Literally just Alan's professional headshot and just pointing, like, it's like one of those, like, TikTok, like, green screen. Oh, yeah. Holding a mic and pointing, just pointing at Alan's face and being like,
01:11:55
Speaker
it's like launch your like next fest maybe but what you really want this is what you want to do festivals points to alan hazelton's face talk to alan and he'll get your game on full page of cerebral puzzle so well i showcase it's like oh cool that's not gonna yeah that's not gonna lead to a bunch of non-puzzle games submitting oh don't worry they already do um Speaking of hustling, um Rachel, you wrote a book about Cocoon? I did. i was going to plug this at the end, but I'll talk about it right now. um Yes, I wrote a gay epi game. I wrote a book about the game Cocoon by Geometric Interactive.
01:12:37
Speaker
It's for Lost in Cult. They are publishers who publish a bunch of games. Hell yeah. Books about games like Tunic they've done. They've done The Outer outer Wild. So they're very much in their puzzly thinky space. And they, yeah, they asked me if I wanted to write about Cocoon and interview Yuppie Carlson and and not be intimidated by that whatsoever. he's nice. He's very nice. He is. Him and Jakob, oh my God. They have been so lovely throughout the whole process of like, me interviewing them and asking them questions and not understanding something and being so patient with me. And yeah, so the book is going through revisions at the moment. We're hoping it will be out later this year, probably towards the end of the year, but we're not sure yet, but you can pre-order it. And ah it's a good one. I'm so proud of it. I mean, if you love anything to do with like puzzle design or knowing how Yeppe Carlson like designed Cocoon and also maybe Limbo and a bit of Inside, He's honestly so fascinating. And if you care about anything like that, then you should definitely buy the book. It's, oh, him and Jakob, because Jakob is um gema Geometric Interactive's producer, but he also did all the audio work and he helped with Puzzle. He did a bit of everything.
01:13:51
Speaker
um They are so interesting. And I also interviewed Erwin Coe, who did all the artwork, this beautiful biomechanical bug infused artwork. And ah they are just really cool people. And I've tried to make the book not just about the the development of Cocoon, of which it is, but about the processes that go into making Cocoon.
01:14:17
Speaker
ah Indie games and video games. So there's a whole chapter just dedicated to puzzle design using Cocoon as examples and Yuppie talking about it. There's um how to make, there's another chapter on world building, like how do you make a video game world? What's important when you start to make like Especially the fantasy world like in Cocoon. like like What goes into that? And then there's an audio chapter. Again, that goes into um how important is audio work? Cocoon is special because everything is made synthetically. There is not a single...
01:14:49
Speaker
piece of music or audio that they just downloaded and used everything was made from scratch like the walking the music the sound effects everything was made through different programming systems it's so fascinating so yeah the book is about cocoon but it's also about these other aspects of game development uh which is i really wanted it to be about that as much as i love cocoon you know these are artists who have line you know like to a lot of work and a lot of experience in other aspects of um their portfolio and i wanted all of it in the game and obviously i'm used about how cocoon is amazing one of my favorite games ever so there's also that if you like that kind of stuff as well uh but yeah oh it i worked in it all last year and it hopefully fingers crossed like i said it should be coming out
01:15:38
Speaker
Maybe ended this year. Oh, I hope so. Not sure yet though. Yeah. I mean, i wanted to ask about the timeline for working on something like that. You said you were working on it for a whole year? Yes. So it was all of, ah oh God, was it last or the year before? Time? What is it? But it basically took me ah maybe four months to do all the interviews. So, you know, Jape, me and Jakob spoke multiple times. I think it was two interviews, but it was a multi-interview process that took a couple of months. Writing the book took the best part of, I'm going to say, like six to eight months. I was really locked in. And now this editing process and designing the book cover and um kind of looking at the layout and how it be structured, that has now taken another, probably the best part of a year. And now we're just kind of in the final stages of
01:16:35
Speaker
Just kind of cementing everything, doing more checks, making sure everything's good. um But as always, with book publishing, ah apparently, I've been told, it takes a long time. And whatever you whenever you think it's coming out, add another six months to a year. Oh, mean, so like a video game. Yes. yeah I mean, Alan, not to drag too much into it, but like,
01:16:59
Speaker
A video game, ah especially a digital video game, ah doesn't need to import paper. No. and doesn't need to ship globally in massive containers. One big difference is you've finished your work on the Cocoon Book and there's like so much infrastructure stuff to do. ah I'm pence down on a game like the day before it ships. Yes, that which would scare me. That honestly scares me, that thought. like ah It scares producers as well.
01:17:33
Speaker
this sister Doesn't scare me because I can't read. Yeah, I was gonna say that. Um... Alright. We should probably wrap up, although... we should call it here. Feels like we could keep going, but... Actually, I had have one other thing about the book. um How does somebody get a gig like that?
01:17:55
Speaker
Did like Lost in Cult just know you as like, oh, Rachel Watts, she's the number one Cocoon Superfan, or... Um, I had written a review about Cocoon. So they had found me through my written review, which I'm really proud of that review. I wrote it for GamesRadar.
01:18:11
Speaker
And i I think I'd also interviewed Yepen Jakob for, um, for GamesRadar as well. So they just knew that I had played the game because I reviewed it and they knew I'd already talked to them for this, for another article. So I think they just read my review and went, oh yeah, like,
01:18:28
Speaker
I guess i this is is also awkward to say, but I think I was a quote unquote, someone working in the industry of which lots of people know of maybe.
01:18:38
Speaker
um So I think it was a combination of those two. It was like, oh, she's, you know, she's writing regularly and she's written about Cocoon. and So we had a chat, a video call and yeah, Irwin, um erwin ah Ewan is his name. Lots of E's. Ewan from Lost in Cult reached out and asked for a video chat. And then we had a video chat and he, yes, offered me the opportunity. And I was like, hell yeah!
01:19:04
Speaker
Absolutely! I fucking love that game! I could write 30,000 to 40,000 words on this game. Bring it on So that's how I got the gig, ah which is nice. Woof!
01:19:15
Speaker
ah But I want to do another one. If anyone wants books written, I can write books. Pitch them months to the expedition. Oh, I would love to do a Dracnik and Friends. Oh, um I'm getting cotton mouth. Yeah, thirs there's a lot to write about, I think, especially with monsters.
01:19:36
Speaker
Yes, I would oh, Monster's Expedition it is my favorite game of yours as well. I love that game so much. Out of every game I've ever worked on, which has a lot of games that are really, really well known that I'm uncredited on.
01:19:49
Speaker
Yeah. um Monster's Expedition is my favorite.
Exhibiting and Promoting Games
01:19:52
Speaker
Oh, right. well I'll be really quick cause i know we're running over. But when me and Joe did... um We had the Thinkie booth. Joe might have told you, but by not sure we did, so I'll repeat it here. When me and Joe did the Thinkie booth for... um Oh, was it EGX something in London? was one of those big gaming events. We had a bunch of computers set up and, you know, kids could come in and play a bunch of games. We had a bunch of switches. And so we would... um have the Switches set up and have a bunch of thinking games on them. And Monsters Expedition was the one which was fascinating to see children play. It was so accessible because at first I was like, oh, I don't know whether they're going to really understand this. Like, i like ah like i don't really, I would don't want to interfere, but oh my God, just seeing the this language, this puzzle language, like kids understand how this game worked. and just not needing any help or guidance and just really connecting with the game. At one point we had three screens on out of the six.
01:20:47
Speaker
Everyone was playing Monsters, Monsters, Exposition. It was absolutely incredible to watch. So I always, that story lives so close to my heart. And I was like, yes, this is how it should be. And then someone being like, can we play this game? No, play this, play Monsters, Exposition.
01:21:02
Speaker
I'll tell you what you want to play. Not really. But it was, I always remember that. i'll always One of my first things I did for Thinky was do that show and seeing that. um That game is amazing.
01:21:13
Speaker
ah Thank you both for that. Yeah, just a, I don't know. It's just really, really cohesive, like, statement of a game.
01:21:25
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. um That's a lovely note to end on. Oh, that's so nice.
Conclusion and Credits
01:21:31
Speaker
So where can people find, I mean, we've, we've spent the entire episode talking about where people can find you, but where can people find you?
01:21:36
Speaker
Yes. um Oh, socials. Oh, I am. um I am on blue sky. ah Rachel Watts, something. I don't really remember, but the best place to find me is the IndieVenture podcast. Please listen. ah If you liked my energy, like Alan said here, hopefully you'll,
01:21:54
Speaker
like it there as well. Lots of energy, lots of indies, but that's really my main thing I'm working on. Also. Yeah. Cocoon design works the book. Um, if you're into cocoon, it is, I've already bought, ah it's so funny. They offered me the gig and then I looked at the website and bought like four their, four of their other books. And I was like, Hmm, maybe the the payment for this book will help me and my, uh, pay for these other books. I think I bought the citizen sleeper one. I bought the outer wilds one.
01:22:22
Speaker
and think i bought another one as well. They do good shit. Okay. think that's all I'm trying to say. um But yeah, thank you both again for having me on the podcast. I've had a good time. I've had a good yap.
01:22:32
Speaker
and yeah ire Yeah, we're thrilled to finally have you on and yeah chat about all this stuff. We've had a really good gap here today, I feel. Looking at the one hour, 24 mark. Oh my God. wellll say sorry if I have to edit this. ah She's good. And we'll see we'll see how long this comes down in the edit. it it might We might be able to shave like five minutes off. yes Yeah. Okay, cool. Anyways, well, thank you again for joining and thank you for listening to the Drack Naked Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoisemusic.com. Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak.
01:23:15
Speaker
Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations. Thank you.
01:23:28
Speaker
you