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Episode 59: Robin Ward and Jeremy Johnston (The Incident at Galley House)
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In this episode, hosts Alan and Mairi are joined by Robin Ward and Jeremy Johnston (The Incident at Galley House). This is a no-spoilers conversation! Topics discussed include differences between the original Type Help and The Incident at Galley House, what impact voice acting had on the game, our favourite wildly underrated puzzle games in general, and what's next for Evil Trout.
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Transcript
Introduction to Draknek and Friends Podcast
00:00:23
Speaker
Welcome to the Draknek and Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Alan, the head Draknek at Draknek and and my co-host today is Mari Nolan, the studio manager here at Draknek.
00:00:37
Speaker
Hello, nice to meet you. And we have Robin and Jeremy from the ah development team of The Root Trees Are Dead and the new incident at Galley House. Hello.
00:00:50
Speaker
Hello.
Meet the Designers: Jeremy and Robin
00:00:51
Speaker
Hello. ah Do you want to introduce yourselves? Do you want to go first? Sure. i'll I'll go first, I guess. I'm Jeremy. I'm the designer of the Root Trees Are Dead.
00:01:04
Speaker
Robin and I worked together on that, and I also have done some work on the incident at Galley House, though I am not the primary designer of that game. Yeah, um like Jeremy mentioned, I'm the I'm the secondary designer of the Root Trees Are Dead. I helped create the Steam version. um Well, I helped. i did a lot of the work to adapt it for Steam, but it was Jeremy's base design. And yeah, on the incident at Galley House, I'm not a designer really at all. More of a producer and developer and generalist and all sorts of things.
00:01:37
Speaker
Great. And yeah, do you want to give us a little bit of a background on ah The Incident at Galleyhouse and the original game it's coming from and the development team behind it?
Origin of 'The Incident at Galley House'
00:01:49
Speaker
Okay, I'll take it. um Yeah, The Incident Galleyhouse was originally a game called Type Help that was released on itch.io for free by the developer William Rue. um It was text-based and it came out about a week or two after we had released... the root trees are dead on Steam. And on our Discord, it kind of created a storm. Everyone was like, you've got to try this game. You've got to try this game. And of course, you know, so I jumped in with high expectations and it it honestly met them. I was like really blown away by what this text game had managed to do.
00:02:19
Speaker
um In particular, well, I should explain how the game works. The game works by... It's a text-based interface, as I mentioned, and you're using an old computer and you're going through its files to find out ah the details of what happened at this house in 1930s England.
00:02:38
Speaker
And the central mechanic is you type in... a code. um And part of the game is figuring out what the components of the code meet are and what they mean and how to adjust those to search for other files.
00:02:53
Speaker
And I thought it was super clever because like a lot of puzzle games like The Root Trees Are Dead or Obra Dinn, which a big influence on it, work on the principle of locking in certain amount of things to prove your work. So you'd say like, here's I'm filling in the family tree. You can fill in people's... The root trees are dead. You can fill in people's pictures, their occupations, their names, as you go along and you're filling it in. And then once you get three of them right, or later four, it'll play a little tune and it'll tell you you did your work. um But again type help doesn't have that at all. Type help is really just like...
00:03:29
Speaker
if you get the full code right with with its components, then you then you unlock something. So you're actually constantly unlocking stuff um in a way that does...
Adapting 'Type Help' for Steam
00:03:38
Speaker
But you're still proving your work along the way. Like, you can guess. You can brute force and stuff like that, but it's not...
00:03:44
Speaker
it's definitely not as easy. um And I really liked that mechanic and I thought the game was super clever and I love the story. um So I reached out to William and I asked him, Hey, look what we did with root trees. It seems to be doing well on steam. Would you be interested if we kind of did the same thing? Like if we take your text based game and adapt it to steam.
00:04:05
Speaker
And then I approached Jeremy who might have something to say about and so that. Yes. ah So, I think this all happened essentially within a month of the release of the remake of Root Trees Are Dead. So within a month of the release of the root Trees Are Dead, that's when type help was dropped on itch.io. People started linking to it.
00:04:32
Speaker
in our discord and i didn't play it right away because i had a full-time job but with the success of root trees and the enjoyment that i had working with robin
00:04:46
Speaker
I kind of decided if he was willing, and and we had ah we had discussions about it, I'd like to work on something else with Robin. And it turns out he was very conducive to that too. We both really enjoyed working together, and we had a great time. So I left my job, and he said, I'm already looking into working
Challenges in Game Adaptation
00:05:05
Speaker
on this game. I checked it out, type help.
00:05:07
Speaker
um And I thought it was fantastic as well. So we had ah a meeting where we discussed a few kind of follow-ups to what we were gonna work on next. And that ended up being, yeah, we definitely wanna do this. whateverre Whatever else we're doing in the future, whatever other original games we wanna make, this game is too good not to to remake. and And so we came up with ideas ah during that same meeting. So we had originally intended to figure out what are we gonna work on next? And part of that flow became, well, if we're gonna work on a remake of type help next, how do we remake it? what What does that actually entail? And that process was somewhat similar to what we had originally done on root trees. yeah It came back to us. When we originally started remaking root trees, one of the first things we did was we started having meetings and going, well, okay, what needs to change for a remake? So it was very familiar. i enjoyed it a great deal. And i think that catches us up to the the beginning of the development of Galley House.
00:06:11
Speaker
Yeah. um William, I think I said, but William was on board. He was excited at the the proposition. i did I did say a couple of things to him in the beginning. I was like...
00:06:23
Speaker
The thing that i always wanted was like, I wanted voice acting. That was the number one thing, because as you play type help and you unlock a scene, it's presented to you as dialogue and like almost like a script.
00:06:36
Speaker
And as a big fan of movies, TV and media like that, I was like, I would love to hear this. Like, I think actors could really... bring a lot to that. And I was actually surprised to find that that like wasn't a universal opinion. Like there's people on our discord that um I had said that to and they're like, no, it's so much better in your head. And I was like, really? Like, oh, I think this is there' are people on our development team that you said that to.
00:06:59
Speaker
Yeah. um And we can talk about that, too. But um but William, fortunately, was like, no, I think that's cool. um I think that would be a really good thing. And then I had said um to him, like, the other thing that I really would like to do is change the name.
00:07:15
Speaker
And because at the time, like when I I considered type help to be ungoogleable. Like I had searched for it online and like got no results. And I was like, we can't release a game that people can't search for. It like this also doesn't even make sense with the format of the game that you released.
00:07:34
Speaker
I suppose not. No. Yeah. Like, ah because in type help originally, like, it's cool because it tells you to type help. And I do think there are interesting aspects of the title because it's like it is a unique title. And I will say the title we ended up with is not super unique. The Incident at Galley House. um I think it does describe the game, um but it does sound like a lot of other games. And I will say.
00:07:55
Speaker
Naming is hard. And we went through, and probably anyone who's ever had to name a game or anything like that probably knows what we're talking about, but we had to go through an arduous process of all suggesting names and going back and forth and such like that. There was a lot of Googling suggestions and realizing, oh, it's it's already been done some way or another. And then some of the ones that we almost picked would have had the same problem. We we got really lucky, actually. that we almost picked some pretty unique titles. And then right afterwards, um the ah the example I'll use is there's a line in type help that says, there are no ghosts at galley house. And we almost used that as... or Or adapted that line in some way to make the title.
00:08:40
Speaker
And there is another game coming out called There Are No Ghosts at the Grand. Or There Are Ghosts at the Grand. I can't quite remember. There's No Ghosts at the Grand. There's No Ghosts at the Grand. Yeah, it's basically the same. Yeah, pretty much the same thing. And that's a complete coincidence as far as I'm aware. Their game was...
00:08:56
Speaker
I think within a week of us choosing a title and not choosing that, that's when they really... I think it was a couple months later, but there's still no evidence that they played Hype Helm. Oh, no, no. I'm saying I'm pretty sure that that the trailer that they dropped about ah a month, within about a month of us...
00:09:13
Speaker
choosing a title, yeah so much polish in it that they've been working on that game. Oh, the game. arm Yes. Yes. So they I'm you. They wouldn't have been working on the game for that long without that without a title. So I'm sure that before type help maybe even released, they had already um come up with that title, too. It's it's too bad because I will say that was probably like our number two, like a lot of people really loved that title. um But yeah, but type help. It doesn't even William was like I don't think it's even a particularly good title.
00:09:43
Speaker
He's like, I don't know what I was thinking. um And like the kind like the image you see on itch.io, that's probably royalty free image. It's like of a CD-ROM and there's no CD-ROMs in the game. um So I was like, that was my other condition. and and And he was on board. And we were like, well, we really want to respect you um and your vision for this game because like...
00:10:03
Speaker
I would hate to make a game where the original creator was unhappy or that I had to override them all the time. Like, I think it's just like a much smoother process if they are on board. And so I was like, I want to make sure that like, it's important to me personally that like you're happy with what...
00:10:19
Speaker
reccreate So that's why we had him quite involved. So ah William has a day job, but he still joined us on the weekly meetings. We have an internal forum. You know, he participated quite a bit and and even wrote um the additional content in the game. So he was quite involved.
00:10:35
Speaker
What were some of the things he wanted to keep the most about the original game? Because I haven't played the original game, actually. I had a some i a thing where like at what you guys said as well, everyone suddenly came to me they were like, this is the best game ever. You have to play it.
00:10:48
Speaker
And then I heard that you guys were making, obviously, the full mastered version on Steam. And was like, I'll just wait. I'll just wait. So this has been my most anticipated game ever since I first heard about it. But yeah, I would love to know, like, what are some of the biggest like through lines from the original that like William and you guys wanted to keep?
00:11:05
Speaker
Well, the biggest thing is just the story is the same, generally. ah So the the original game, as Robin mentioned, is presented as files on a computer that you're searching for. And the one thing that...
00:11:18
Speaker
we would have kept if we had a way to do it, but we didn't keep was the, ah there's a narrator of that original game because it's the files, the files of the computer you're going through belong to someone else first and they left notes in those files.
00:11:34
Speaker
um But the story itself, other than that, is pretty much exactly the same so that everything that happens in galley house in the 1930s is exactly the same and the the reason for that is because it was so engrossing and so interesting there's no way to or reason to change it yeah and i think we were we would have kept the narrator lines if we had a way instead what we did was we subtly changed the story as subtly as we could to include the information you'd get from the narrator lines in other ways. And then we added some additional story. But but as Robin mentioned, William was heavily involved in that.
00:12:14
Speaker
um some additional story for the new narrative structure that takes the place of the computer in the file system. But generally, the the games
Evolving Game UI and Player Experience
00:12:26
Speaker
are very similar. if you If you were to go back and play Type Help now, I'd actually be really curious to hear the opinion of someone who does that. But you would know what's going to happen. You would know the characters. You would know yeah oh a lot. almost everything. That's a great way to do it. You know, I think I will. i think I will. As soon as I've forgotten most of what's happening in Galleyhouse, I'll go straight back to the type help.
00:12:49
Speaker
yeah i'm trying to think if there's any other core like we really did we've changed the interface and the mechanism that you input the codes and stuff like that drastically but it's still as jeremy mentioned it's still so similar like all the puzzles are basically the same i know because some time has gone by and we've you know william got some feedback you know some puzzles were slightly tweaked um with the language but it's it's mostly there um i think Yeah, that was what was the most important is like, I just think the format of, you know, inputting a code and receiving information, receiving a scene. And then from that scene, having more information that allows you to find more codes and then piecing together the mystery in your head that like that was definitely the most important aspect of the game.
00:13:38
Speaker
And I'm speaking of more information. so there's another thing that I really wanted to ask you guys about, um, going back to the voice acting. So again, i never played the original, but, um, have you found the feedback that having voice actors, uh, kind of clues a lot of information and kind of how was that clued originally? I'm speaking of like the genders of people or like, even they're like social classes a little bit represented in the way they speak and stuff.
00:14:04
Speaker
Um, I'm guessing that wasn't in the original. Yeah. right ah I was going to say that's a good question to kind of loop back to something that we mentioned we we mentioned earlier. And that is when I first played type help and Robin said that he thought that there should be voice acting, that's what I was worried about.
00:14:23
Speaker
There was a a lot of moments in Type Help with ambiguity where you didn't know the genders or the ages of people because it was all text on the screen. And I was worried that the game had been designed with that in mind to be intentional puzzles.
00:14:39
Speaker
And when i talked to William, he said, yeah That is a side effect of the game being text, but he didn't think that those puzzles were as important because they are not that hard anyway. ah I don't want to put words in his mouth, but that wasn't a focus of his. So he definitely felt that the benefits of the the voice acting would outweigh any of the negatives of the things you're mentioning. And I will say that having seen play testers go through the game and thinking of back to my time playing type help there were some times playing type help that i was trying to figure out okay what type of person is this from the way that they speak and it was sometimes difficult but you we have changed that a little bit so that there are now puzzles
00:15:31
Speaker
so I wouldn't call them, again, almost the same complexity and same importance. They're puzzles about people's appearances instead. So, yes, it's easy to figure out that this person who is speaking is a male more a more male masculine voice or more feminine voice, but you don't know which person they are in the list of people.
00:15:56
Speaker
And that was completely not in type help. And so I feel like we've we've just replaced the very minor puzzles of, okay, what gender is this person and what's their age? What are their, and things like that to what do they look like?
00:16:11
Speaker
And I don't want to get too much into that until we talk about that, potentially if we talk about that later, but that is a new type of puzzle that didn't exist in in type help.
00:16:23
Speaker
Right, yeah, because I i haven't finished either version, actually, but i i like playing, I was like a little unsure. Okay, i can I can enter people's names, I can enter people's... I can like enter an avatar for each character, but i I couldn't get the sense of, like, oh, does this matter? Or is this just to help me...
00:16:45
Speaker
it is It is just to help you. Like, i there is a correct answer for every name and every avatar, um but it's not enforced and it's not rewarded. um In fact, like one of the we had a very positive review come out yesterday and they're like, I wish it kind of just told you. So, like, I'm not saying never. It's possible. And this the thing I wanted to bring up on the team. Like, maybe at some point we'll.
00:17:08
Speaker
will give you an answer or something. But like, it's largely like we consider it unimportant to the the playing of the game. Like it does help. It does definitely helps you organize your ideas to have those values correct. And I don't recommend playing the game without renaming people, for example. but I think it would be really hard. Right. I think Not renaming people would would be a real handicap. I don't know to what degree not assigning people avatars would matter too much. Really? For me, it matters a lot. Yeah. I will say that playing the game with just... Because I guess we could just talk about the mechanics very slightly here and in very vague terms. When you first begin the game, every character in the game is represented by sort of a silhouette without any features.
00:17:52
Speaker
And for me, looking at people and seeing illustrated art for who they are definitely gets me in the mindset of of remembering them better. Like I can just remember which character is which when I have something besides the silhouette. And i'm so I'd be surprised to hear if that wasn't at least somewhat universal.
00:18:13
Speaker
Oh, I think like I come from a like user interface design background and previously I made web forums. And one thing we discovered very early is you really want to encourage people in the web forum to upload an avatar because when you're scrolling through a list of things like the visual image is such a quick signal for a brain like we're tuned to see images and jump and immediately learn. And even though the silhouettes have like a slightly different colored glow to them and stuff and and a number on them that represents who they are, it's significantly harder to just look at it and immediately come up with that information. Like sometimes like I'll be watching an early play test or I'll start the game myself. And when you get to a scene that has a lot of people, there's one fairly early in the game. Like when I see it with silhouettes, I'm like, oh, it's like a mess. I need the people there. You know, like I need that just as something to attach to.
00:19:03
Speaker
I would also add, and so again, I'm going to speak in this in very vague terms as well, but there's, with each avatar, there's a line of description as well. And in some of those lines of descriptions are very important clues.
00:19:17
Speaker
and So also as a mechanic in terms of this, you can go the other way. You can be like, I'll assign this avatar to this person. And then someone will say something subtle and that reinforces or undermines it in an interesting way that adds to
The Impact of Voice Acting
00:19:29
Speaker
the scene. Like if you're sure this is this person,
00:19:32
Speaker
and then they say something, it kind of upturns it Again, i can think of one or two very specific examples that I won't say on this podcast because I don't want to spoil it. Yeah, no, i definitely do like that because it it does kind of give you more puzzles to solve, even though the puzzles you're solving aren't directly relevant to progressing in the story.
00:19:52
Speaker
um it is it is definitely nice to have that little puzzle of like, okay, what's this person's name? What's this person's avatar? Yeah. Yeah. We did talk a few times about, especially way at the beginning, you know, as I mentioned before, some of the first calls we had are, what are we adding to this game? What are we changing? And I, as a more traditional, I guess, puzzle game designer, and also off the success of Root Trees, did suggest, what if we lock these pictures and names in three at a time or something like that? And it became...
00:20:25
Speaker
quickly apparent that that just didn't gel with the the design of the game that we're trying to make and also the the narrative structure of the game is that you're using the machine in galley house many years later to listen back to this information and the machine in the lore wouldn't have any way of knowing if you're right or wrong It's it's just ah it's just a piece of technology and you are the person in charge of all the deduction.
00:20:51
Speaker
And so we decided that against that. we even Even in a subtle way, at one point, I do think we mentioned maybe having an achievement for everyone, um if you had everyone's picture right. And again, we decided that maybe it's better to let people be in charge of how they want to view everyone.
00:21:11
Speaker
um Even though, yes, behind the scenes, there is a correct answer. ah I will say there's other tools the machine gives you. um Like we've talked about, you can rename a person or you can add an avatar. um But there's ah like besides like things like the in-game notebook, which isn't, you know, it's actually outside of the machine. That's like the notebook, your character your your person, you're out your protagonist is using but there are other tools in the machine interface that allow you to organize your thoughts and and categorize scenes and things like that and we don't mark those as right either you know
00:21:49
Speaker
Yeah, how much iteration did those organizational tools go through? um Like, did you start making the game and have a pretty clear sense of what tools players would find useful? Or did you find yourselves adding more stuff as development went on?
00:22:05
Speaker
were This is like the number one... Okay, like, have you you have you all heard the joke that like all games are either ah menus or parkour? Sure. Yeah, like our games are menus. Like, these are all... It's like pretty much all menus. Like, that's not unfair to... That's a little unfair to Jeremy, who was kind of the director of all the visual novel scenes. So when you're experiencing a scene in the new version of the game, you see it.
00:22:30
Speaker
like I mean, those are menus, though, really. It is a menu, yeah. that's That's certainly not parkour. Certainly not parkour. It's more menu than parkour, right. um But otherwise, you're mostly in menus. And like, again, I mentioned I come from a user interface background, and I really care about how something, like the UI of something, and specifically to me, that's more important about like how it feels and works than how it looks.
00:22:54
Speaker
um Not that I don't want it to look well, but it's like I really care about... um how it's working. So like... And ease of use, right? Yes. So from the early brainstorming days, like i remember Jeremy came up with a a design quite early on for like, before I even got a chance to like work on it really in Godot at all. Just like, here's how I think the interface could look. And it was a pretty good design. And I think if you looked at the screenshots of that, it would match. But we did, we iterated a lot, you know? And the way I...
00:23:24
Speaker
like to do things is not like a lot of big design up front. It's like get the smallest version working possible and try it and just keep trying and keep editing. And like so we probably had a version of the interface within a couple months of starting the project and then constantly tweaking all the way up until like today, because I don't think like I've heard some developers say, like oh, I'm bad at UI. And I actually think that it's most people could be good at it if you can just spend a ridiculous amount of time on it. you know I think the people who say, I'm bad at UI, what they're really saying is, oh, it's unpleasant for me to work on it. And I just i get tired of it and I have to to go away. But it's like it's a lot of problem solving. and it's a lot of just being...
00:24:08
Speaker
like I said, putting in the time and being pedantic about it and just, you know, watching users and see what they do and go over it again and again and again until until it feels good.
00:24:19
Speaker
And at some point you have to just say, well, like, okay, like, it's good enough, we'll ship, you know.
Visual Design and Period Accuracy
00:24:25
Speaker
What that's told me is I really want to see a parkour version of this game now. I could release it as a special DLC.
00:24:34
Speaker
You are running and jumping and diving through memories. ah Call it Mind Diver. No, no, sorry. That's already taken. Oh, no, that's been done. You could say there are many ghosts at Galley House. That can be the title, and you've got to dodge the ghosts. Yeah. Yeah, and you have to collect dots as you do.
00:24:53
Speaker
Oh, no, that's been done, too. You've got ah you've got a vacuum cleaner, and every time you suck up a ghost, you get a memory. yeah i love it.
00:25:04
Speaker
Looks like we can't make a game about ghosts or parkour. Every game about ghosts and parkour has been done. Sorry. Oh, man. um So as well as the three core team members you've been talking about, I believe you had like a larger supporting team on this game than on Root Trees. Is that right?
00:25:27
Speaker
Yes, definitely. ah So if you look at the credits, the credits are a lot longer in this game than they are in Rootries. A lot of that, of course, is voice acting, because this game does have a lot of voice actors. But we also had ah Jay. He is ah another programmer who does things very similar to Robin. They work together very well, and I like working with him as well. And then we've had Hennig, who did work with us on Rue Trees. Hennig did all the 2D art and some of the 3D art. And then we have a couple of other 3D artists that we work with as well. So generally it was, and and I shouldn't forget about Paul. Paul Alexander did all the music for the game. So essentially, the success of root trees allowed us to have more wiggle room with our budget to play with to bring more people in that would be good at certain aspects and would be able to cover the things that we needed help with.
00:26:26
Speaker
Yeah. Another what massive one is Kirstie Gilmore, who was our first our casting agent director who, like, very early on, we're like, okay, maybe we can go to websites and find voice actors ourselves. And was like, oh, this is actually a ton of work. And we got a recommendation for Kirstie, and she was just amazing. Like, she helped us through all the casting, all the booking of voice actors, all the...
00:26:49
Speaker
directing it was just a massive undertaking like well for me like i've never done a game like this before like we just we i think we had three voice actors in the root trees are dead and and most most from one actor um so that really really helped on this project yeah do you um do you know how many hours of audio are in this game I do not off the top of my head. i At one point a long time ago, so something that's kind of fun about the development process is that before we were working um with actual voice actors, we wanted to test a lot of the systems of the game, and I was insane, and I recorded every scene myself. Yes.
00:27:33
Speaker
Release the Jeremy cut. Absolutely. yeahm that Do not release the Jeremy cut. ah ah But I recorded everything. um And so at that time, with that version, i believe I did look into, it was something like i watched a lot of scenes and kept ah track of how long they were. And each one on average at the time was about 60 to 90 seconds. And that was without any sound effects or um things like that.
00:28:05
Speaker
And then most of the the later game ones are a lot longer. you know as like As the game goes on, the scenes get longer and more complicated.
00:28:15
Speaker
ah But I would guess if you were to take all of it together, it's at at least maybe four hours ah of dialogue straight if you're just to play back to back to back with no pauses. If you were to actually make the scenes happen, I can't tell you. Maybe it's a good thing for us. Maybe we should go figure that out.
00:28:36
Speaker
Yeah, we probably could calculate it. Sorry if that answer was ah a bit dry. there wasn't I don't have a good answer, as I guess. I mean i was more interested in the in the answer than the numerical answer. Oh, I see. Yeah.
00:28:50
Speaker
But it was a lot. And like we've had to review every scene multiple times because, you know, but like just getting the game engine working, get everybody in all the yeah all the artwork in there, um making sure all the scenes work. And then once Jeremy started...
00:29:08
Speaker
staging them and and then we redid the staging and then went through edits and stuff like that it's like by the time the game's launched i've watched every scene so many times some more than others like often the earlier ones i test over and over again but yeah i can't even think of how many times i've seen every scene in this game I would um love to hear you guys talk a little bit about the visual style as well that you went for. Because obviously we spoke about the UI, but as you were talking about the actors then, I was like, yeah, it's like really like rich scenes with like people sort of walking around, all the little avatars moving around. But the design of the house is actually gorgeous as well. um Yeah, what was going through your heads as you sort of adapted the Type Help into this, I guess, almost 3D space, this 3D house?
00:29:54
Speaker
So the original Type Help... did not have any of descriptions of the rooms and it didn't really have and you layout information except maybe one or two minor hints, perhaps something like, oh, I heard the the house is a couple stories tall. And so someone might say, I heard something from upstairs. And if you know where that noise is coming from, then you have a little bit of a hint as to what rooms are above what other rooms. But that's pretty much it. So when we started creating the house for Galley House, we did write down everything that we knew was important. And William was a great help with that. he He put together some of the references of things that he knew based on the story had to be in certain places.
00:30:39
Speaker
But generally, Robin took over. um You started by building a house in Blender, I believe. Yeah, so once we had a rough idea of all the rooms, I started, you know, I made a really low polygon cutout version of the house in Blender and just tried to, you know, tried to come up with like a reasonable...
00:31:03
Speaker
design that made sense of the house and it's interesting because like there was no guarantee we could make it work right because like this is a thing william didn't have to deal with in the text version right like ah to see if the house could actually make sense and unfortunately it did like we found a layout of the house that made sense um and popped it all together we did have to move around some rooms if i recall to make sense and once i had the the layout, it was like, you know, a two floor layout of the house. um And some of the back rooms, like at the house, like we just ignored.
00:31:33
Speaker
And ah the joke is like, well, the bathrooms can be there because like, there's no scene where someone's in the bathroom, you know, like, so for each yeah, there's okay. I guess that is a spoiler, very light spoiler. There's no scene where someone is using the bathroom. um It's not that kind of game.
00:31:48
Speaker
And ah yeah, so I had that. And then, One thing we did, we did this with Root Trees too, but with Hennig we provide like a really detailed art brief and Jeremy did most of the heavy lifting there.
00:32:00
Speaker
And he, you know, assembled a lot of of, you know, um reference images and stuff like that and included, i gave him my model from Blender. So he, each room he had the basic structure of how, like where the walls should be, where the doors should be, where the windows should be, and that we had notes because...
00:32:17
Speaker
Like a couple times, you're like, from this room, you have to be able to see this and and stuff like that. And then we sent it off to Hennig, who is an amazing artist, and he you know filled in the blank and did a really good job.
00:32:28
Speaker
um Yeah, his process is that he essentially builds the the rooms in 3D himself. Yeah. And then screenshots them from an an angle that works and then paints over them really, really very well. It's it's so beautiful. I love the art in this game.
00:32:45
Speaker
um And so um I really find the house absolutely very beautiful. And a huge part of that is that Hennig took the very basic blueprint, literally a blueprint that we sent him. And he ah he looked at references of houses from that time period to figure out what should go in the rooms. And he just kind of went hog wild with it. And it's it's lovely. I love the art.
00:33:11
Speaker
Yeah, i I really love the production values on this. um it Like, not that Retrieve was bad, but Retrieve felt functional, and this looks, like, really great, I think.
00:33:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think part of it is, like, we learned how to work with Enig, too. Like, we we had a good relationship with him, which is why we wanted to work with him again. And, you know, we knew we do a bunch more of our strengths and weaknesses.
00:33:35
Speaker
And as Jeremy mentioned earlier, like, I think having... We were fortunate enough to have Root
Exploring Puzzle Game Design Philosophies
00:33:41
Speaker
Trees had success. So we were able to, you know, we had more money to spend on on things like... And more time and issues like that. So it all really came together. Also, I just think, like... um This was really his wheelhouse. Like if you look at the board games that Hennig illustrated, like he's done a lot of ones that are mysteries or like Cthulhu-esque or, you know, things like dark mansions and things like that. So like he had a lot, I think ah he was, he was, he hit the ground running. I also think the other the other aspect of it is that the pictures and the characters in this game are a lot more consistent in terms of not the art style.
00:34:18
Speaker
I'm sorry, not not like the... i'm I'm not saying the quality of the art is more consistent. I'm saying that the the prompts that we had to give him... for what kinds of rooms there were, what kind of time periods it would be in, what kind of clothing everyone would be wearing. wearing It was all very cohesive with one story. Whereas in Rootries, okay, this person had to be from the 20s and this person had to be from the 80s and this person... and And we kind of did that scattershot in Rootries. We didn't say, okay, let's do it chronologically or let's do it where this location has to be the same but throughout time. Whereas in Galleyhouse, it's a lot...
00:34:55
Speaker
In a weird way, the timeline is a lot smaller. And that means that the art can, it all connects together really, really well, I think. Speaking of Henning, I just went in his portfolio now. I own loads of games he's worked on. Yeah. i recognize the art i if we had cameras on i'd be able to start getting them out and waving them but yeah he's fantastic yeah he's fan of the art i think he's done over 450 board games like just a ridiculous amount of board games yeah yeah gorgeous uh mao is there anything else you wanted to ask about i mean i've got a million questions but they're all spoiler territory to be like in this specific puzzle and this specific interaction you do and what did this mean? But no, this is, um no, I think this is fantastic. I guess I've got a question more broadly. um Obviously I'm speaking to two of the best puzzle masters in the world. um What do you guys, what have you been playing recently? What do you play in general when you're not working on this game?
00:35:59
Speaker
I just played through Dimhaven. Dimhaven is a from the same studio, Zadbox, that made Quern, which is one of my favorite games. My go-to type of game, if I could choose to play one type of game and they would just release infinitely for the rest of time, is going to be mislikes and games where you're essentially stuck in a stuck in a place solving puzzles that open doors and like escape rooms, but on a grand on a much grander scale.
00:36:27
Speaker
And Dimhaven definitely did that for me. i loved it. So. Incredible. You're speaking my language. i love escape rooms. So. I can't wait to play that one.
00:36:39
Speaker
I've been playing this week. My new obsession is, what's it called? It's called The Message from Deep Space is the one that I've playing. I've heard a lot of buzz about this. i haven't had time to check it out, but... So, um it's quite interesting. So, like, one game i I quite liked in the last year is What's the Password? i don't know if you played it. Love that game. Really good It's just, like... What's a password is just a really simple game. It's just like it presents you, you have to enter four digit numbers. That's all.
00:37:07
Speaker
All the game is just one series of four digit numbers after the other. And it's like, it's really interesting that Dan, the creator was able to explore that puzzle space and just say like, well, what kind of things can you do? Like, how wild can I take this? And I feel like it doesn't make 99 puzzles. Am I right? Like he's managed to do 99 different unique things with it. I'm not sure, but it's a lot. Yeah, that sounds right. And um I've really enjoyed it. um And then I find like this game has a similar interface and that it's like, I mean, the i don't think it's a spoiler to say it's a message from outer space. You're just you're decoding and it's a series of just.
00:37:42
Speaker
it gives you some input and you give it an output. And the beginning is, is quite math heavy. And when I say math, it's a lot of like sequences and you're basically figuring out the rules of an alien, of the ability to communicate with an alien. And it's, I don't know, it's quite engrossing. Um,
00:37:59
Speaker
there's something There's really something to it There's something special about it that I'm really enjoying. um I have heard from people who don't like math and stuff like that, that it's not as interesting to them, but it's it's my jam. So I'm really enjoying that for now. And I've heard it's quite long and goes to really wild places. so I'm really looking forward to seeing where it goes.
00:38:18
Speaker
Was there anything the of you were interested in chatting to us about? I was curious, actually. um I'm always looking for game recommendations, but I'd like to ask a very specific type of recommendation. So another game I played recently was called Dream of Things.
00:38:38
Speaker
It is a game that I thought was pretty good. It's a puzzle game, but it had something like 10 reviews on Steam. And that is criminally small for how good the game was.
00:38:51
Speaker
And I'm wondering if you have any game recommendations that are like that for you where you think that you really just should be spreading the word people not just you but everyone should be shouting from the the rooftops about a game that very few people have heard of yeah i mean i know we always have tons of these in cerebral puzzle showcase um that's exactly what i was doing i was checking my cerebral puzzle showcase list as you said that One ah that always comes to mind for me so I'm also scrolling through the Cerebral Puzzle Showcase Hidden Gems ah tab. We have this category in the Cerebral Puzzle Showcase, which is sort of hidden gems, and we filter it out by ones that get like over 90%, but under 20 reviews and then under 50 reviews and stuff.
00:39:43
Speaker
Well, that sounds perfect. I should check that out. Yeah, it's still live. It's still live from the recent one we did. um Have you found it, Alan? Yep, the one you're working for? haven't. Maybe they didn't schedule a discount this year, so it's not on the list. The one I'm spotting in this list that got some buzz, but not as much as it deserved, I think, was Loophole. That was maybe one of my favorite games from last year.
00:40:08
Speaker
And it ah I didn't play it until the end of the year. It's a time loop game. But... butter Like ah ah there's a lot of time loop games and a lot of them are fine.
00:40:20
Speaker
And this one really surprised me and how good it was and how interesting the systems were. It's like, oh yeah, get to the exit without getting seen by your previous self. But it manages to do that in a way that like actually felt really novel.
00:40:35
Speaker
And it layers on just a few extra mechanics on top of that, but it picks just the right ones to make it really interesting. So yeah, love love that game. It's like Sokoban style, like an overhead.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah. yeah um Although there's not really a lot of block pushing there. It's grid based, but it's not um as super spatial and like Sokoban puzzly as a the block pushing game.
00:41:06
Speaker
Okay. That's cool. And my question, I guess, in that thing, like, i I would say, like, I love puzzle games and I love adventure games and narrative heavy games, I should maybe say. um But yeah, like, I feel like Sokoban are generally...
00:41:23
Speaker
my kryptonite, like, I just... I just feel like I'm not that good at them. And I just... I find, like... It's weird, because I'll play narrative-heavy game, like, Type Helper, Root Trees Are Dead, and I'll be, like... I'll get stuck for, like, an hour or two, and I don't mind. I'm just, like, I'm just going over everything over and over again. I'm not using hints. I'm just really enjoying stewing in it and really finding my way out. But something about staying for an hour Ahsoka Bond level is, like, or a grid-based puzzle game, it's, like, I just feel like...
00:41:52
Speaker
I just can't do it. like Or I'll just try it over and over again and undo and undo. I'm kind of curious, um as a publisher of many of these kind of games and someone who's really involved in making those kind of games, like is there one that you'd recommend that's good for people who get easily frustrated that might be a good gateway Sogobong or grid-based game?
00:42:13
Speaker
Patrick's Powerbacks is a good one. Yeah. I haven't tried that one. Can of Wormholes is maybe not beginner level, but the hints make it... A lot of puzzles in Can of Wormholes are like very, very tricky, but I do think the hint system in that is like good enough to like drag down the the perceived difficulty level if you're willing to like really engage with the hint system in a way that's very impressive.
00:42:39
Speaker
other entry-level ones um i did actually get really far in a monster's expedition i will say yeah like i did get i yeah that one was pretty accessible to me um that would definitely be another that was going to be my suggestion but i wasn't sure how self-promoting we could be the
Future Projects and Genre Challenges
00:42:58
Speaker
amocraft Yeah, I played that one before I joined Dretnik and Friends and that one made me love soccer band games. So that one was gentle enough. Mind you, I don't know that I ever actually finished it slash discovered everything, but certainly in the sort of difficulty curve um going into it, very accessible.
00:43:14
Speaker
I did get, yeah, I think I'm, I was the same on that one. The other one, like I really liked, i don't know if Baba is You counts, um but I got, The thing is, I really enjoyed like two worlds of that game before it got really hard. And I'm like, I kind of wish it was just easy the whole way through because then it would be like my favorite game. But it gets really hard and I... It gets really hard and actually quite quickly. Yeah.
00:43:38
Speaker
Yeah. Not as quickly as like the one that I installed almost right away, which was Stephen's Sausage Roll, which is like, I can't beat the first level, you know? Yeah, I mean, Steven Sustachew, you can start, like, ah ah any one of, like, ten levels right from the jump, and they're all basically impossible. Yeah.
00:43:57
Speaker
And there's a certain person who loves that. Like, that game is really well regarded, but I just, yeah. Maybe it's just not for me. I don't know. Maybe it's just okay that I don't like a certain branch. yeah I think you need, i think a certain level of soccer band literacy really helps you approach that.
00:44:14
Speaker
Steven's sausage roll with the right mindset. I think that you can train yourself to play Steven's sausage roll and at that point you can get like out of Steven's sausage roll what is worth getting out of Steven's sausage roll but if you approach it in the wrong way it's just yeah an incredibly punishing experience.
00:44:35
Speaker
And then some people say it's like one of the best games of all time. I played through the whole thing, not without hints, mind you, but I enjoyed it. The thing that I enjoyed most about it was not the difficulty.
00:44:46
Speaker
The thing that I enjoyed most about it was how it would surprise me in ways that a game that on the surface seems really simple and your controls are really simple, how it would continue to surprise me as you continue to get deeper and deeper into the game.
00:45:01
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And it it it definitely doesn't need the puzzles to be tuned as difficult as they are to give you that level of surprise. That's true. I never thought about it that way. The game is what the game is. yeah Difficulty is interesting because it's like I would never tell someone you should make your game easier. But like i I know I don't enjoy things that are generally like that hard right away. Like there's I do like some hard games, but like it's it's a tough sell for me. I much prefer to be eased into the sea, you know? Yeah, I mean, with Monster's Expedition, we were definitely trying to hit the same kind of touch point of
00:45:38
Speaker
ah There's not a lot of gameplay objects, but each one of them has a lot more depth and you're constantly seeing new consequences of the mechanics that were already there ah like throughout the game.
00:45:50
Speaker
And we're just doing that with a very different style of moment moment puzzle. I get that too. Yeah, i do I do remember there being some moments in that game where you learn new tech.
00:46:04
Speaker
um so I'll call it that. And that was what I liked about Steven's sausage roll as well. Yeah. And ah Can of Wormholes, also really good for that.
00:46:15
Speaker
um yeah ah I remembered the game was thinking of earlier. It's called Snalions. You've got these these little aliens that are like kind of behaving a little like snake gameplay where they've got a tail and you move and the tail moves. um And conceptually, it's like...
00:46:38
Speaker
Nothing that hasn't been done before, but I remember playing this and just like being really delighted with the puzzle design in it. um I don't remember how hard it is, but it's definitely, I don't think it's like super, super hard, but it is that kind of like puzzles have linchpins and if you don't see it, then you're just going to be bashing your head against it. So you need to engage...
00:47:01
Speaker
very deliberately with the puzzles to figure out the solutions. but i yeah I would like you to link to that if you can somewhere, because when I'm Googling Snellians, I'm not seeing a puzzle game. I'm seeing a a tower defense game.
00:47:14
Speaker
Unless that's the same game. No, no. It's a very group based. That would be a curve ball from Alan to suddenly be into shooter games. I see it as well. A VR ah tower defense game called Snellians.
00:47:28
Speaker
No, linked it in the call history. Okay. We can also have it in the podcast description. um But yeah, basically no one has played this game, but I really liked it. i like Definitely hidden hidden gem for If you'd allow me, I did think of one more question that I thought was quite interesting.
00:47:50
Speaker
If we have time. Yeah, absolutely. All right. You may have discussed this before. There's been, i know you've done a lot of podcasts. So someone else may have asked this and I don't have a good answer at all, which is why I'm reaching out to you.
00:48:01
Speaker
I'm curious what you think the best puzzle design in a non-puzzle game is. Ooh. Because I've seen over the years people talk about, oh, the the new God of War has puzzles in it, but the people and the other NPCs just tell you how to solve the puzzle if you don't solve it within like 20 seconds, things like that. And I'm curious if there's a game series out there or one game out there where they added puzzles as sort of a secondary thing to do that breaks up the action. And those puzzles are actually quite good.
00:48:33
Speaker
Yeah, I don't play a ton of non-puzzle games. So like the Zelda series might be the closest get to that. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say. Zelda Dungeons, it's got to be, right? um But I don't play the like big AAA games that sometimes have a puzzle here and there.
00:48:50
Speaker
um
00:48:54
Speaker
And I don't know if puzzles in... puzzles in Any of the recent Zelda games have like hit me in some of the way in the same way that the puzzles in some of the older Zelda games have.
00:49:08
Speaker
Like the the recent Zelda game with Zelda as a protagonist, what was that called? Is it Echoes of Wisdom? Echoes of Wisdom. um I liked that game, but I don't... And I think it had really interesting puzzle potential, but I think the way they took it didn't lend itself to...
00:49:31
Speaker
completely like ah satisfying that part of my brain. But I think a Echoes of Wisdom 2 could be like really interesting. Like that that has a lot of potential, I think.
00:49:42
Speaker
And then yeah, the the more recent bigger Zelda games, they've got, again, they've got interesting puzzle systems, but much fewer puzzle puzzles that like really make me smile with joy.
00:49:55
Speaker
Jeremy, have you played Titanfall 2?
00:49:59
Speaker
I played about two to three hours of it, I think. It was um And then, I don't know, I just... Are there puzzles in it?
00:50:10
Speaker
Yeah, well, there's a level that has a really cool... It's not like the most puzzly thing in the world, you know? It's like... um But there's a level that has a really cool mechanic where you're essentially in the same level in two different time periods, and you're jumping back and forth.
00:50:26
Speaker
And that's quite fun. I would also say an obvious one to me is like Half-Life 2. Like when that game came out, you know, they had the physics engine and you're shooting, shooting, shooting, but then you'll get to and a thing where you're like, well, i have to figure out how to use a crane to manipulate something in physics to get past this. I guess the thing is like none of those are like super hard, but it does, those kind of puzzles do break up the game and change the pace, which could be fun.
00:50:51
Speaker
But I guess like there're the big fear is like, someone playing the shooting game where you're, you know, killing aliens or whatever, if they get stuck on a puzzle, it's it's like if they can't continue the shooting that with that they've enjoyed the whole time, like they're going to hate the game. So they always file it down, right?
00:51:09
Speaker
Or at least, like you said, give the answer after a certain point. Yeah, absolutely. And that's kind of why i' was curious if there was a game that didn't do that. that you know I don't know. i've it would be fun a fun question for all the puzzle enthusiasts out there.
00:51:26
Speaker
I don't know if you have a place where people send you feedback, but hey, everyone listening to this, send Dracnik a bunch of game suggestions. but I'm just kidding.
00:51:38
Speaker
Don't do that. i don't i will I'd like to be on the channel the show again. I mean, I'm i'm always happy to to hear what games people are enjoying, what puzzles people think are worth checking out.
00:51:48
Speaker
ah But if they're they're in a non-puzzle game, I probably won't have time to play them. um I thought of one actually in the time we were talking. I call this a puzzle game, but I don't know if it is. a Hard Space Shipbreaker. You have to disassemble spaceships and it it does not build itself as a puzzle game, but it's very thinky. You've got to sort of memorize ship layouts and schematics and which ships are sort of nuclear and which aren't and then disassemble them in the safest way possible. And it really scratches that puzzle itch. But I don't think anyone would necessarily describe it as a puzzle game apart from me.
00:52:23
Speaker
I've got to try that. Yeah, it's good fun. Do you guys, curious actually, because I called this a puzzle game once and people seem surprised. The Exit 8. Do you consider that a puzzle game?
00:52:35
Speaker
No. Ooh, it's horror more than puzzle. Okay. Bit of it's like this's i've I've heard some people draw a distinction between like puzzles and riddles.
00:52:50
Speaker
And that game almost feels more like a riddle game or like an observation game. and Like for me, the puzzle games I enjoy, like which is not to say this is the only definition of puzzle, but like the puzzle games I enjoy have puzzle systems and you're learning puzzly things and then like extrapolating them and like seeing how this thing meshes with this thing. Whereas exit eight, There's not really systems there so much as one-off moments. It's kind of like the thing with a lot of point-and-click adventure games. like those Those have puzzles, but they often don't have puzzle systems.
00:53:30
Speaker
And so they they fall into this kind of weird gray area where it's like, oh, is this is this relevant to our audience? Is this not? Yeah. Okay. I'm wondering, like, would you... yeah Observation games are interesting.
00:53:45
Speaker
but They're definitely related, aren't they? There's definitely some kind of overlap. Yeah, like Hidden Folks are those games where you just like have to find like Where's Waldo kind of games. like Some people consider that a puzzle, you know.
00:53:59
Speaker
But you're it's mostly about observation, not thinking and coming up with a solution to something. right And I i mean, i think I think we did have um Walk the Frog in the most recent Cerebral Puzzle Showcase. And that's kind of just a big interactive jigsaw puzzle.
00:54:15
Speaker
And like, that's not that thinky, but it it feels thinky enough, puzzly enough to be like, yeah, this is this is vibe. And like, similar to Hidden Fives, like, regardless of whether it's like a particularly thinky puzzle game, it's got puzzly vibes.
00:54:35
Speaker
its so It's a big umbrella. like And even like, we've struggled to come up with a good um genre for like root trees or galley house, you know, like ah static deduction I've heard or mystery. Static deduction is such an awkward phrasing.
00:54:52
Speaker
Like i get I get what people are getting at there, but I just think it's it's too awkward to to catch on. so But I often say mystery, mystery puzzle. That's so broad though. Yeah.
00:55:05
Speaker
That could mean anything. Categorization is so hard though. This reminds me of trying to figure the categories for Cerebral Puzzle Showcase. We've got so many thinky puzzle detective games and I think we ended up splitting into two or three categories and they didn't 100% match. and It's very hard to break them all down into different categories. Yeah, I bet.
00:55:28
Speaker
I remember when we first talked to Hennig and I'm like, oh, Root Trees Are Dead is ah it's a deduction game. He's like, oh, I love Werewolf. I'm like, no, no, no, it's not that. That's social deduction. Yeah.
00:55:38
Speaker
But I don't blame him for coming to that conclusion. Yeah.
00:55:45
Speaker
All right, well, before we wrap up, I think I have one last question for you, which is Root Trees, it was mostly the two of you. um With Instant at Galley House, you added a third core team member. um Is there going to be a game released just after this game comes out that's going to have you bring in a fourth core team member to make a new and new game and then so on?
00:56:09
Speaker
Probably not. But we can't say no. we We don't know yet. So that's something that, just like last time, after Root Trees came out, Robin and I spent time determining what was next.
00:56:22
Speaker
And because Galley House has not come out yet, we don't actually have an answer to that. um As far as we know, we have no aspirations to to become the remaster studio. We're not going to just constantly remaster games that are already out there. That just happened to be a nice coincidence that it worked out well for us twice, but that has never been our goal. Would you say the same thing, Robin?
00:56:44
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Like actually when I, you know, it's interesting that it happened twice. and And I think both of those times was like an issue of opportunity. Like I was working on my own game at the time that I found the root trees are dead, a puzzle game based on crossword puzzles, which we still might do. And then I found root trees and I was like, oh, this deserves to be,
00:57:03
Speaker
much bigger than it is so that's why i reached out to jeremy and then after root trees when it wasn't clear if jeremy and i were going to work together and i found type help it was kind of like the same situation i'm like oh this game just fell into my lap this amazing game and it's so good and like i just want to i want to be part of this and bring it to other people but i don't there is no third game like that i'm not seeking one out but i certainly haven't found it um Yeah, realized earlier when I asked if there's games that have like no reviews, I want you to know I wasn't fishing for our next project. Yeah. next yeah
00:57:36
Speaker
But I'm like, I, what about to say, like, I realized like I come in from a position of privilege, but it's like I'm doing this because I like it um and I want to work on interesting things, not necessarily what makes the most business sense. Like, it's looking like Galley House will be successful. We're very lucky at that Root Trees was successful. um All signs are pointing to Galley House doing the same thing. So like business sense wise, it might make sense to to keep doing this model.
00:58:00
Speaker
um Especially because like, you know, Root Trees had a turnaround time of like a year. gal Galley House was just over a year from the time we we really started, maybe a year and a half, um which is tremendously fast for or games like this. But um Yeah, I don't know. I'm interested in looking at ah like at there's I definitely want to work on another puzzle game and I know i want to work with Jeremy and um it's going to depend on you know availability for other team members and interest like because we have a bunch of ideas. So like when we get together after sometime shortly after Galley House is stabilized a bit, we're just going to throw a bunch of ideas at the wall, like see what sticks, talk about like what would you be interested in doing? You know, like what can we reasonably do?
00:58:47
Speaker
I do know that like I'd rather keep Like, I don't want to do a massive game. Like, I think sometimes there's a desire, like like, oh, let's go bigger, bigger. And, like, we definitely did go bigger with Galley House than Root Trees. But, like, I also, so I would prefer to keep the scope of a game small.
00:59:03
Speaker
I think that's something that, like, interests me. But I suspect just due to what sounds the most fun to me right now is that, like, it probably will not be a remake for Game 3. It'll probably be something new, which probably means it'll take a lot longer than a year. Yeah.
00:59:19
Speaker
Well, I know we'll be super excited to see what comes out. Great. And if if it does end up being that ah crossword idea, ah let us know. We've got a big crossword fan on our on our team, and I'm sure he'd love to playtest.
00:59:37
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, has has he tried um Rita? There's a game that was in... Yeah, that's a key one. Yeah, Rita's quite fun. It's not... I was like, oh, so somebody else is doing a similar thing. Like, it's not the same, but there's a good chance we'll do it. Like, I know Jeremy jeremy likes it, but like we're definitely not even close to ready to commit to anything. But that is yeah certainly one that we have, like, ah i have an hour of you know, as a called proof of concept.
01:00:05
Speaker
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining us. Well, thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you very much. It's always a pleasure. And Mary, if you want to discuss any spoilers or something, um Jeremy and I would be happy to discuss offline or whatever. Incredible. Send you a lengthy email later.
01:00:22
Speaker
Yeah, sure. And thank you for listening to the Dragnet Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow. You can find at gulnoisemusic.com.
01:00:33
Speaker
Our podcast artwork is by Alan DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.