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Episode 57: Ausiàs Dalmau (Is This Seat Taken?)
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In this episode, hosts Alan and Syrenne are joined by Ausiàs Dalmau Roig (Is This Seat Taken?). Topics discussed include designing puzzles with multiple solutions, their partnership with Wholesome Games, and what they're working on next.
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Transcript
Introduction and Welcome
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome to the Dracneck and Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Seren from Dracneck and Friends, and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazelden, the head Dracneck at Dracneck and Friends.
00:00:34
Speaker
Hey there. Today we're joined by Auxius Delmau, who you may know from their work on Is This Seat Taken? How are you doing today? I'm good. Thank you for inviting me to your podcast.
00:00:46
Speaker
Of course. We've been excited to chat to you. Can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you got into games?
Auxius's Path to Game Development
00:00:54
Speaker
um Yeah, I'm Auxius.
00:00:58
Speaker
I'm from Barcelona. I love to play video games, as as as I guess all all of us that get into video games, at least from my age.
00:01:09
Speaker
um I played a lot of PlayStation back in the day, a lot of strategy games as well, like Age of Empires and stuff like that. And then from there, I didn't know what to do with my life when when I finished high school um and I was not a very good um student.
00:01:28
Speaker
But I was good with math, so I said, let's go into programming. and And it was the the time where lot of universities started making video game programs. So I just mixed both things and joined the the degree and at the university Barcelona.
00:01:45
Speaker
That's how I started. But then after that, I started up like doing games with Sergi. That's my the the co-founder of Potipotty. and But then um since it was hard to make it it in our own, we searched for jobs. There's a lot of mobile companies in Barcelona, so we went for that. And after some experience, like some years of experience, then we reconvened, like we get back together to make our first game with the City game.
00:02:18
Speaker
And what kind of games were you interested in making when you got started?
Challenges in Game Design
00:02:24
Speaker
Management games, I believe that's what i've enjoyed the most. Yeah, like UI based games that when you manage things and you make them grow, that's a thing that I really wanted to pursue because it's the games that i like, but then when we When you start to make those games, like it's very easy to add things and they just pile up like one thing on top of each other. So the first game that we actually started working on, me and Sergi and some other friends at the university, was a puzzle game um because it was like, first of all, it was like a thing back then with mobile games.
00:03:04
Speaker
um To just make a puzzle game and put it on a mobile phone it was like an easy with quotes thing to do. ah So yeah, we started with that.
00:03:15
Speaker
But also like Sergi loves puzzle games and um it's it's a thing that he enjoys a lot. i'm not i like I like puzzle games, but I think that sometimes they are a bit too hardcore like puzzle games.
00:03:32
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, it it's a seat taken, definitely couldn't really be described as hardcore. It's ah very relaxing, very generous, ah very undemanding.
00:03:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think we mixed a bit of both things, not like... He wanted to do a puzzle game and me not wanting it to be hard. It can be challenging at times, but I always felt that puzzle games and are very easy to to frustrate the player, especially if you are not used to them.
00:04:04
Speaker
And it has creates this feeling on the player that where you just feel dumb because You've been doing this thing for an hour and then suddenly you are stuck and you feel stupid.
Puzzle Design Philosophy
00:04:17
Speaker
And it's a feeling that I i don't like ah on me and I don't like to make it feel to other players. um and Although I understand that this criticism that we have with this is a thing that maybe for puzzle experts, it's too easy.
00:04:35
Speaker
But we we cannot you cannot make everyone happy, I guess. I wouldn't necessarily say ah people think it's too easy. i think it's more that it is just like a very approachable one of these.
00:04:50
Speaker
How did you, throughout development, ensure that the game wasn't getting too difficult or complicated? Because, of course, one of the... One of the things about puzzle games and the people who make them is that when you're making the puzzles, you, of course, would know all of the solutions.
00:05:10
Speaker
And so it can be a little bit tricky to do difficulty balance sometimes. um Yeah, like with Vistas and Digit, we never knew all the solutions. Because I saw the Zinke direct, there was a talk where someone made a program to discover all the solutions from different puzzle games, and they did ECC Taken. And the level that he chose had like 300 different solutions.
00:05:37
Speaker
So we didn't explore that, but we we had this idea from the beginning that all the puzzles had to have more than one solution for sure. um Because when puzzles have only one solution, then it's obviously going to be hard.
00:05:55
Speaker
So that that was like, because with with the previous puzzle games that we did before, when we were at university and also in game jams and stuff like that, we saw that very quickly that when It was very easy to have to design a puzzle with only one solution. Well, it depends on the puzzle that you're making, but in our case, it was easy to to make that but the design.
00:06:19
Speaker
But then for the player, it's hard, and it's also harder, at least for us, too the to scale the the difficulty. So for us, it was more about finding in the design how to make things interesting rather than how to make things more difficult.
00:06:38
Speaker
So how how do we make that the next puzzle that it's going to be more or less the same as the previous one? It's a bit deep different, so it's interesting for the player, and he wants to keep playing at until the end.
00:06:50
Speaker
Yeah, I love that interesting versus difficult difference because they're they're very much not the same thing. What were some of the things you were looking for to emphasize that, oh yeah, this one is going to feel interestingly different to the one before?
Creative Process in Game Design
00:07:08
Speaker
I think with the if you play the game, there's these levels that are like not on the main storyline. It was our time to like, okay, let's make something completely different.
00:07:21
Speaker
Quotes, quotes, not completely because it ah it's the same game, but like something more different. So the the play player releases like...
00:07:33
Speaker
a change in mechanics, let's call it like that. So that's for us was like the maximum creativity point. And then on the main story levels, ah it was like basically adding like different small mechanics or changing the combinations. Even like, for example, like the second there's a boat, know, that adds this new layout and adds the party people and then there's the second boat. So how can we make the second boat that we didn't have any new mechanics ah for it and not feel super repetitive? So we basically combined the different mechanics that appeared on another level like the sunscreen
00:08:18
Speaker
and add it into the level and removed the the first level was very focused on the party and we made less focus on the party and more on like the sunscreen and the smells on a small space.
00:08:34
Speaker
So that was hard. Like that was when it was harder to find interesting things like, yeah, when when it's a new scenario, like it's very easy to find new things. no The airport that we have the queues and but yeah.
00:08:50
Speaker
So at what point in development did you feel like you had a game and not just a series of mechanics?
Game Evolution and Variety
00:09:02
Speaker
I think, like with the previous thing know about making the game interesting, at first it was only buses and we thought, let's make a story about a driver and the stories that he hears on the passengers. That was the our first idea of the game because we all ah it all started with the bus.
00:09:23
Speaker
But then when we started playing, with we saw, okay, this is going to last or even it's going or it's going to be a 30 minute game or this is going to be super boring all the time, the buses.
00:09:35
Speaker
So we were a bit stuck there, but then we thought, okay, let's try to add different scenarios and c see what they if they bring different things, basically, and see if it can be an interesting game. And then when we made the wedding and After the wedding, we made the i believe we made the diner.
00:09:54
Speaker
Then we saw, okay, yeah we have we be have something here because it adds ah different things and also like the game works a lot because it's relatable. The scenarios are relatable. You um see the reactions of the all the the characters and sometimes you probably feel related, not like to to be annoyed on the bus about someone with the speakerphone, it's very relatable, at least to me.
00:10:24
Speaker
So when we saw that we had this chance of adding new scenarios and making it interesting and that the game could last at least ah a couple of hours of levels, that that's when we thought we had a game.
00:10:37
Speaker
And um you mentioned before about wanting to make it so that it wasn't too challenging.
Balancing Dialogue and Gameplay
00:10:44
Speaker
Do you feel like you hit that balance fairly well from the start or did it take you a while to figure out what the right difficulty level was for the game?
00:10:56
Speaker
I think it took a bit. um we We made some playtesting. The levels at first were harder than they are now on the final ah game. yeah like And we thought that also that things were clearer very to understand.
00:11:11
Speaker
things were clear it and and very easy to understand and then We saw that maybe some mechanics were not that easy to understand for others.
00:11:22
Speaker
Because that's also like a frustration point. on it's It's not only being able to solve the levels, it's also being able to understand the mechanics. And ah see ah there there are things that are very easy to understand, like this the smell, not usually the area.
00:11:37
Speaker
This is where the smell affects. and Don't put someone that doesn't like smells there. But then there's the hat at the cinema, for example, that it's not. very clear because you're not seeing the point of view of the person that you put behind the hat.
00:11:53
Speaker
But then then we introduced like the little dialogues that explain it and we saw that it worked really well and we we used a lot of these dialogues to explain mechanics that we saw in playtests that were hard understand.
00:12:07
Speaker
And yeah, then apart Like from here, it was fairly easy to do this, to move on this difficulty level that the game moves.
00:12:20
Speaker
It's true that by the end, we were very used to the game and it was a bit harder to get the sweet spot and I think some levels are a bit too hard, like the the stadium and ah the stadium levels are maybe a bit too hard. And then there's a diner that I made that I thought it was super easy. And then apparently it is super confusing at the end.
00:12:43
Speaker
But apart from that, I think we're very happy with how the difficulty of the level of the game is overall. How did you decide on the amount of gameplay dialogue versus non gameplay dialogue?
00:12:59
Speaker
So we started with the premise that people don't read. You're right. Excellent decision. Yeah. And then from there we said, okay, how many lines do people that do not read or most people don't know like with the premise that people don't read how many lines is too much lines. And then we said, okay, like five lines. It's something that most people will read. So most dialogues are maximum five dialogue lines, which is not a lot to work and with. Like but it was a challenge to make a story with these many dialogue lines.
00:13:34
Speaker
But then there's also like when we created the level, we we had stops now and then we said, OK, in this stop, ah we're going to introduce these mechanics and then we're going to we would tell Alexis that with the person that wrote the dialogues, this needs an explanation.
00:13:55
Speaker
So if there's something that needs an explanation, there needs to be a dialogue. And then if there's nothing that needs an explanation, there can be a small joke or there can be a storyline. um But maximum two dialogues per level. So we have maximum two dialogues per level, unless there's a lot of mechanics that need explanation.
00:14:16
Speaker
um but I believe this only happens at the beginning of the game. So, yeah, we we had these two rules, like maximum five lines. that this It's obviously not set in stone and there are longer dialogues in the game, like if especially on the story in the end, it was necessary. So there are longer dialogues, but by the end we also thought whoever is invested in the story is going to read it and whoever is not invested anymore is going to just keep it. So we we didn't care that much if it was a bit longer.
00:14:52
Speaker
But yeah, that was our main rules, like maximum five lines, maximum two dialogues per level. And then also the lines ah had to be maximum. way They also had a maximum length. We were very strict with this because like on a previous puzzle game that we worked on, we let the dialogues like free and whatever we felt like. And we saw that they were not working and we we wanted the people to read it and not be an issue. like
00:15:23
Speaker
Since we're using it to explain the game, it can be like people not reading can lead to frustration. I'm curious about the process of working with Wholesome Games.
Marketing and Success
00:15:33
Speaker
how How did that ah collaboration get started? um So I went to Gamescom in 2024. Like, it's OK. So when we started the game, we we were working on other companies like yeah just me as a programmer, Sergei as a technical artist.
00:15:52
Speaker
ah But then i was fired because a publisher pulled out at last moment. um So we were working on this game on the on our spare time and we said, okay, let's since I had the this opportunity, let's go on and make our own game and build our own studio.
00:16:14
Speaker
um So Sergei quit his job and we started working on the game. And our idea was to self-publish because with our previous experience, we saw that most publishers take advantage of of the game and a lot of times they are not... you you don't really see the investment unless it's like a wonderful... like with besides of the money investment, you don't see that they put in the effort to make your game have the best chance.
00:16:49
Speaker
At least that's what I saw previously with my older jobs. So, yeah, we thought to self-publish and then I went to Gamescom in 2024 and I saw an older friend and he told me that since I wanted to self-publish, maybe Wholesome Games would be interesting since we were not looking for funding, although money would have been good and Wholesome Games doesn't offer funding.
00:17:16
Speaker
um But Wholesome Games was a great match. for the game because it's a a wholesome, cozy game of ACC Taken.
00:17:29
Speaker
So yeah, I went home and I spoke with Sergi and it it looked like it was a good fit from paper, no? Like from what what they so we could see on the website.
00:17:46
Speaker
So I sent them an email and then we talked for a bit and they really liked our game and they thought that it had a that it was a very good game.
00:18:00
Speaker
And so we went for it. ah Yeah, I think it it was a great decision because ah Thanks to this, we've been obviously on the Wholesome Direct and they have a great network of creators. and They also have the newsletter and they have advised us on all the marketing process. that That's what what we were interested because we had the knowledge to make the game, but we didn't have the knowledge to actually market it.
00:18:31
Speaker
So we we are very happy with how the things have been going. And yeah, apart from that, they also helped us with the dialogues of the game.
00:18:43
Speaker
it's It's not something that they usually do, I believe, but we asked them if they if they could help us a bit because we are not native English speakers and also our story idea was a bit more dark, so it was not that wholesome. So they they helped us make it a bit more and wholesome.
00:19:05
Speaker
What was the original idea? I'm curious. Yeah. Well, spill the beans.
00:19:12
Speaker
um If I remember correctly, Nat was ah struggling and editorial book. like She worked for an like any editorial book company.
00:19:30
Speaker
I don't know it's called like that. um Yeah, she was like struggling in life and finally finding herself like like on like in the main story.
00:19:41
Speaker
but Yeah, it would probably not have ended like so happily with being more like what your life is usually like. But you are probably in a better place, but you don't necessarily are in a happy place with doing films, even if it's just an indie movie. But it was not darker. It was not that dark, but it was just more like... It wasn't uplifting.
00:20:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah if that makes sense. And then how have you found the reception to the game?
Post-Release and Future Projects
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's been wonderful. Like, like if I'm honest, we thought that the game was going to it was not going to succeed. We thought it was going to sell bad like before when we started but we we thought it's our first game let's ah ship it fast and then move into and and a new another project learn like learn the process you can see how we need to market the game learn by doing mistakes and then we do another game that was our idea at first
00:20:52
Speaker
um But then when Wholesome, when I sent the email to Wholesome and we saw that ah they were interested and they that they liked it, we we thought, okay, maybe this game has a chance.
00:21:02
Speaker
um And then we we added more things. And I believe this is also when I applied to the Darkneck, I don't remember the name, Darkneck grant. The New Voices grant.
00:21:14
Speaker
The New Voices grant, yes. And then we ah apply the then we announced the game like like four or five months later and it was a great reception. like The trailer got like 400 or almost 400,000 views on YouTube.
00:21:32
Speaker
um It was something that we were not expecting at all. And then Nintendo liked the game and put it on the Indie Direct. um So yeah, it's been surreal like we would never imagine. And now like the game has sold way more than what we expected.
00:21:51
Speaker
And also now the we got nominated for a BAFTA. So yeah it's been great. Yeah, it's ah it's a level of success that's like extremely impressive like for for any game, let alone your first commercial game.
00:22:07
Speaker
um so yeah, big big congrats. I know when we when we saw it for the New Voices grant, it was kind of a case of like, wow, we love this.
00:22:21
Speaker
And like this is so good already that like we don't think you need us. Yeah, that was... I think we were kind of proven out. that That was, yeah, our perspective was like, oh, what could a year of mentorship do for this game? This game is good and done. Yeah.
00:22:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's possible. Yeah. Like at that point, we I think we were like thinking on like if we were would have got the grant, like put it into marketing. and I think that was the idea when I spoke with you as well.
00:22:52
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, like. Like it's been great. So it was nice to meet you. So. oh oh yeah, but of course. So after that, the game, the game gets really successful, it kind of blows up.
00:23:09
Speaker
What happened after the game came out? Like, did you just kind of have to take a break and process or were you immediately on to working on more things or.
00:23:22
Speaker
So we wanted to continue working on new things. And we we thought the game was done and needed nothing else. So we we even like we finished the game on June and then had the fall off whole July and we started already working on another game.
00:23:40
Speaker
um But then the release came um there was like a lot of work suddenly with a lot of things that are not actually game development, I guess. what They are, but not what we and enjoy that it's making the game like interviews and stuff.
00:23:59
Speaker
and going to places and stuff like that that we don't really... and It's not ah like a our thing, I guess.
00:24:10
Speaker
But yeah, it's been it's been great. like It's a whole new experience. and um and yeah And then ah players are asked us to add things like quality of life things.
00:24:25
Speaker
And we made another apple update with yeah like like, I think I spent most of hours when the game came out, like doing these these things and basically replying to emails.
00:24:39
Speaker
um And then in September, we started working on an update with more ah languages because that's something that we wanted to do from the beginning. We had more money, we'd have added more languages.
00:24:50
Speaker
because it's a game that appeals to everyone. And we saw, especially at Gamescom, that kids were not able to to play because it's like that like we have Dutch and Dutch kids would come. Usually I lived in the Netherlands and usually Dutch people all know English, but...
00:25:15
Speaker
um Obviously, Dutch kids are still learning, so they they needed help from their parents. And so we wanted to make it easier and add a few languages. And i've apart from that, people asked us, like, need level saving that we didn't have because we thought... Well, I thought that it was not necessary since levels are pretty short.
00:25:38
Speaker
um But people wanted to do that, that so and we added a couple more things to the game, and we made an update in November. And then we took a break until the end of the year.
00:25:50
Speaker
And now we start working on a new game and we also do some stuff for easy taking but slowly. Nice. Have you talked to at all about what you're working on next?
00:26:05
Speaker
and No, no, no. we we We are prototyping it so we're still very early. it's It's a puzzle kind of game. I don't know if it's a puzzle. I think it's a puzzle puzzle game, but... Like sometimes it's hard to define like... Is it a puzzle game or a puzzle puzzle game?
00:26:28
Speaker
Yeah, like sometimes you... If you go into Steam and you ah click on the puzzle category, like most of the games that they appear there, I don't consider them puzzle games. You don't consider Star Wars Jedi Survivor a puzzle game?
00:26:44
Speaker
Yeah, ah no. ah but So, yeah, but I do think that what we're making is a puzzle puzzle game. um But, yeah, it has i don't know i hasalim elements of other things. so ah But we'll see if it ever like if we find it fun to make it into a full game or not. We're still on the process. Awesome. Do you have any questions for us?
00:27:12
Speaker
Are you doing the the new voices grant this year as well? We haven't confirmed anything, but we'd definitely like to. i can't imagine a world where we don't do it again this year.
00:27:26
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's very important to us, so it would be very weird if we didn't. We usually start thinking about it in earnest after Cerebral Puzzle Showcase wraps up.
00:27:38
Speaker
So we've still got a couple more months. Yeah, that's that's where a lot of the studio focus is right now is just trying to get everything ready for Cerebral in May. Not yet.
00:27:50
Speaker
Although, depending on when this podcast goes out, it might be after Cerebral Puzzle Showcase. so Oh, gosh. Yeah. When this goes out, ah maybe we are thinking about new voices. hu are Are there going to be a lot of a lot of games on the Cerebral Puzzle Showcase?
00:28:08
Speaker
Definitely. We had over 900 submissions this year, which is a a new record. So, yeah, it's going to be a great one asie as usual.
00:28:20
Speaker
it doesn't help that or It doesn't hurt that more... ah like we're We're seeing the showcase come up in unrelated YouTube videos now. Right. ah People are... people are starting to plan around the showcase, whereas like the first couple of years we just ran around and told people, we're doing a showcase. And they said, oh, that's neat.
00:28:44
Speaker
And then we said is your game on a sale cooldown? And ah sometimes they would say no. And then we would put them in the in the showcase. But like, I think that the consistency with which we've been doing it for the last few years has made it so that more people in this space can like plan around. If you have a May launch or you're looking for a May discount and you're in the thinking puzzle space, Cerebral is like a really good moment where a lot of people who are not in this space come in and take a look at what we're up to.
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah like we we also plan around the Steam events.
00:29:25
Speaker
but yeah i don't know if i i well Maybe it comes out after, the CC-Tegu will be discounted during the Cerebral Puzzle Showcase.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yep. We also plan a around it. Yes. Now it's very awesome and exciting. And like we we love it. It's one of my favorite times of the year just because it's like it is kind of the moment of it industry ambassadorship of being able to show everyone what cool stuff people have been up to for people who only tune into this once a year.
00:30:07
Speaker
And if you're listening to this ah because you found us during Cerebral Puzzle Showcase, you should subscribe because we're talking about this kind of game all year round.
00:30:18
Speaker
Do you like um like puzzle games that are not... is I imagine that you are both hardcore puzzle fans.
Gaming Preferences Discussion
00:30:26
Speaker
Puzzle game fans. Maybe not. But you enjoy easier games like this? Yes. No, I... Alan is much deeper into...
00:30:32
Speaker
yes no i
00:30:36
Speaker
alllan is much deeper into ah mechanics than i am as a player. As a player, I like a whole bunch of different types of games. And so i am very, very happy with a with an easier game. I don't need every puzzle game I play to be designed for sickos, as we say. Alan ah alllan Alan a little less so but i don't want to speak to him fully. I like games um which ah have a lot of novelty um or games where it's the same kind of thing, but I really, really enjoy it.
00:31:23
Speaker
um And ah so, yeah, I find FFC Taken really, really charming, even though it's not super, super hard. Yeah. i I do mostly play puzzle games these days. i don't play a lot outside of that. um But within the puzzle games I play, there's a pretty wide range in like what what fires the neurons, what makes me go, oh yeah, this one's pretty special.
00:31:51
Speaker
Though i i do have a a fondness for a grid-based puzzle game that is slightly harder than it ought to be. You don't say.
00:32:02
Speaker
Have you been playing anything good recently? i e nowadays play games to just tune out mentally. So I don't know if it's what you're looking for in this podcast because in a puzzle game, you usually don't, you need to be concentrated.
00:32:23
Speaker
But I played today Modulus. It's a game that came out today. I came out like, one day that we were recording this, like two hours ago.
00:32:35
Speaker
um And I played a bit of Modulus because I worked on it. And it's a factory game. or Like, it has a bit of puzzle about placing the things in the factory floor. I don't know if you've seen that. Yeah, both both and a are familiar with Modulus. I didn't realize you worked on that.
00:32:52
Speaker
I worked on it like as a programmer, not as a designer. And yeah, apart from that, I've been playing like Battlefront, like to the online multiplayer Star Wars.
00:33:06
Speaker
Yeah. the The older one or the newer one? The newer one. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, play like one game before going to sleep. that's That's my gaming time right now. Is that ah is is that a de-stressor for you?
00:33:24
Speaker
Yeah. and Okay. Yes, because i don't need to think about it. Just ah mechanics. You know, you just go there and shoot people. Yeah. yeah Yeah, shoot people and that's it.
00:33:38
Speaker
Every time i talk to people who play competitive online games before bed, i'm like, I could never imagine this in a million years. i i'm fine with playing a hardcore competitive game, but it is just like a that that riles me up. It doesn't wind to me down.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah, but I spend most of my day either programming or... um or like thinking about things, like solving problems, I guess. That's kind of ah my my life, no? I guess it's similar to yours. um Yeah, so when I'm like um on my free time, um I don't like to continue like solving problems. I just like you just want on the weekend. yeah You just want to aim the right stick and pull the trigger?
00:34:29
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Okay. But yeah, like on the weekends, maybe I play other things like, um as I said, I like management games and city builders. So um yeah, Cities of Skylines or Kingdoms and Castles or just like stuff like that.
00:34:48
Speaker
It's very funny. But yeah, no, I guess it makes sense. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about before we wrap up? No, like if you want to talk about porting, like i because Alan asked me a question, but I believe I didn't answer that. but But apart from that, I'm good, whatever you you need.
00:35:10
Speaker
Alan, do you? No, I think we're good. Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for joining us. Where can people find you online? Me as ah as ah as a person, i I have social media, but not umm um i'm I'm not the kind of person that talks about games in social media.
00:35:32
Speaker
um But you can find the social media of our company, PottyPotty, and it's usually PottyPotty.studio or PottyPottyStudio, everything together.
00:35:45
Speaker
Awesome. Well, thank you so much again for joining us and chatting about Is This Seat Taken? ah Thank you so much for inviting me. It was fun. Of course. And thank you for listening to the Draconeck and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoisemusic.com.
00:36:04
Speaker
Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.
00:36:22
Speaker
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