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E108: The Sodder Children
1.5k Plays4 years ago
Imagine your house is on fire and every avenue you take to save your loved ones inside halts because something goes horribly wrong. Imagine standing by and watching your house and, presumably, your children turn to ash and there is nothing you can do but wait for the fire department to arrive. Now imagine spending the rest of your life not knowing if your loved ones were in the house at all; this fate is the fate of the Sodder family.
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Transcript
Starting a Podcast with Buzzsprout
00:00:00
Speaker
Sleuth Hounds, have you ever considered creating your own podcast? Have you been inspired by listening to some of your favorites and thought, I'd love to try this out on my own, whether it's a true crime podcast like ours, a motivational podcast, or maybe one filled with tips and strategies for those interested in the same activities you are?
00:00:18
Speaker
When Maggie and I first decided to start our podcast, we knew absolutely nothing about what podcasting would entail. But when we found that the platform Buzzsprout was one for which we didn't need any special equipment, just a computer microphone, some quiet space and each other, we knew that this was the way to go. It is intuitive to use, fun to play around with, and so helpful in getting analytical data about our number of downloads to track trends and from where our listeners hail.
00:00:45
Speaker
Best yet, Buzzsprout is affordable, even by our teacher salary standards. Buzzsprout will get your podcasts listed on every major podcasting platform. So, what are you waiting for? Fulfill that dream of yours and start today. If you use our Coffee and Cases referral code,
00:01:00
Speaker
709-643, linked on Facebook and in our show notes. Not only will you help support our show, but you will receive a $20 Amazon gift card after your second month on a paid plan. It's that easy. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Now, it's time for the world to hear what you have to say.
Unfortunate Events and Life Hurdles
00:01:27
Speaker
Have you ever had one of those days where nothing seems to go your way? You try and you try to make things go your way or to like work things out but you just can't. I recently had a day like that. I went to bed with what I think was food poisoning and obviously I didn't sleep very well. I woke up the next morning determined to have a great day.
00:01:49
Speaker
I woke up early enough to curl my hair and actually apply a decent amount of makeup. And if you know me, you know that I would pick to sleep over anything. Food, water, literally anything. So getting up earlier than normal isn't something that I typically do. That morning I got up, got dressed, and tried talking myself out of the nausea I was feeling. I picked my favorite sweater and pants to wear for the day. I even wore my favorite shoes.
00:02:17
Speaker
I walked out the door with plenty of time to get to work or so I thought. I started my car and got halfway through my subdivision before I realized my tire was basically flat. I keep a pump in my car. So like I just pulled over to pump the tire up. Well, the pump wouldn't work. I knew that I couldn't drive all the way to the gas station with a tire that low. So I turned around, called my husband and told him we were switching cars because at this point I was closer to being late.
00:02:46
Speaker
I hopped in my husband's car and turned it on only to find the gas light was on with 10 miles to empty. Well, I live more than 10 miles away from my job. As I'm fighting stomach pains, I roll into the gas station closest to my house. I swipe the card only to receive the dreaded see attendant message.
00:03:03
Speaker
Normally I drive away when that message appears because I hate going into the gas stations where I live but I had to go to work so I walked in. I swung by the bathroom because you know food poisoning then headed to the cashier. She ran my card and I went outside only to see that I didn't go through again. I headed back in and she said that the building briefly lost power and that she needed to run my card again.
00:03:26
Speaker
By that point, I was thinking my card's either being hacked or that this is going to be the weirdest start ever to a morning. She runs my card again to tell me that it was denied. No one likes hearing that your card was denied for insufficient funds, especially when you know you have funds. I called my husband who checked our account to find out our mortgage was drawn out six days early, causing us to overdraft.
00:03:51
Speaker
I got in the car and before pulling out onto the main road, had to pull over to vomit. I called my boss and told her I couldn't come in that day. I headed home and literally crashed from exhaustion. It felt like everything in the world was against me going to work that day. It was like the universe was telling me that I couldn't leave my town. I felt defeated and exhausted.
Introduction to the Sauter Children Mystery
00:04:11
Speaker
Imagine a scenario like mine, but instead it's not making it to work on time that's on the line.
00:04:17
Speaker
It's your kids. When you try desperately to save your kids and fail only to have people question if your kids were even in your house, how do you justify their deaths or find out what happened to your babies? This is the story of the Sauter Children.
00:04:48
Speaker
So.
00:05:09
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the case will take those tips to law enforcement so justice and closure can be brought to these families.
00:05:29
Speaker
With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, and to follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases podcast and on TikTok at Coffee and Cases podcast.
Engaging Listeners and Patreon Launch
00:05:44
Speaker
Because as these families know, conversation helps to keep their missing family member in the public consciousness, helping to keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:05:58
Speaker
Before we start today's episode, I do want to take just a second to remind all of our listeners that in just three short weeks, coffee and cases will officially launch a free one. I know I'm so excited. I know me too. And for you guys, if you sometimes crave closure to your cases, if you're curious about like,
00:06:20
Speaker
how Allison and I view popular cases or the theories that we may have, or if you just need a really good laugh, then our Patreon is just what you guys need. We'll be posting, Allison, did we say three to four mini episodes each month? Yup, three to four.
00:06:36
Speaker
And those will be around 15 minutes to 20 minutes in length over a range of topics. I'm currently writing one about the scariest day of my life. Oh, I know it's good. And once we get to 100 patrons, we'll be releasing a full length episode each month. And I can tell you guys that Alison has picked out a crazy one.
00:07:02
Speaker
Oh, listen, I was like, we gotta go, we gotta start big. So that's what I went for. So Maggie, we have gotten so many messages recently from our listeners who have been like, um, so excited for Patreon. It's probably, I'm listening for when Patreon starts December 16th. I am pumped.
00:07:31
Speaker
and I am so glad that you guys are too.
00:07:34
Speaker
And you guys know that I love Christmas and I can think of no better Christmas gift for yourself or for your true crime loving friend than a membership to our Patreon. Again, like Allison said, that will be launched on the 16th. So like it's right in time to give yourself a little Christmas gift or give your friend a little Christmas gift so you have something to entertain you while you're driving the three hours to your family's house or flying across country or whatever you're doing this holiday season.
00:08:04
Speaker
Yes, and at only $5 a month for the first 100 subscribers, it's a price you can't beat. For that $5, you will get immediate access to three mini episodes with two more that will be released in those final two weeks of December. Plus, you will get a shout out on the show. This level will become $8 a month after the first 100 who sign up.
00:08:31
Speaker
make sure that you are marking your calendars to be one of the first. So, Christmas savings at its best. So like Allison mentioned, once we reach that 100 patrons, we'll release our first full-length episode into the mix. And after that, each month will include a minimum of one full episode and three mini episodes. Yes. So, and then of course, if you sign up for a higher tier,
00:08:58
Speaker
You will also receive a card or two from us. We are card writers, so probably two. A discount on merchandise and on our super sleuth level, our eternal love.
00:09:13
Speaker
I don't know why we laugh when we say that because we love everybody and everything. But never fear because nothing is going to change here. Maggie and I will still be here every week on your favorite podcasting app with our cases as normal, trying to spread the word about lesser known cases to help these families as much as we possibly can.
Focusing on Child Disappearances
00:09:34
Speaker
And with that said, Maggie, are you ready?
00:09:37
Speaker
I am ready, and I promise you guys, Allison and Sleuthounds, that I did not plan to, nor did I mean to, cover two cases of missing children in a row. It was a complete accident, as you guys know. I cannot remember yesterday, and I swear to you, literally forgot that I covered the Beaumont children for my last case, until I was putting this in the folder in our Google Drive.
00:10:07
Speaker
I know Maggie texted me Sleuthounds and she was like, um, I'm doing another children's case. And I was like, I think our Sleuthounds will be fine with that. Yeah. I saw that and I was like, Oh, oopsies. But unlike the Beaumont children where we like know they're missing the same can't be said for the children in our case today. Yeah. I was intrigued by your intro. Yeah. And
00:10:35
Speaker
Like we may be wondering at this point, how could we not like definitively know if not just one child, but five are missing or dead? Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. So I'm hoping we'll clarify. No, I won't.
00:10:53
Speaker
Oh, no, this case is really weird. Like, um, when you search it, it's always on like, if you just search like strange cases or whatever, it comes up in the same list as like diet, love pass, um, the Yuba County five that we, oh yeah. So it's like, it's, it's different. So I'm anxious for you to hear the story today.
The Sauter House Fire Incident
00:11:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:22
Speaker
We can all agree that the past few holidays have been different with COVID. For the first time in my life, I spent both an Easter and a Thanksgiving away from my family. Christmas was different around the globe as family adjusted to life with COVID, but no Christmas can compare to the Christmas the Sauter family had in 1945.
00:11:45
Speaker
So George Sauter was originally born in Italy in 1895. He immigrated to the United States 13 years later with his older brother. Okay. What I thought was weird was that I read his older brother went back home as soon as both he and George cleared customs at Ellis Island, which I thought was weird. So maybe he was just like,
00:12:10
Speaker
accompanying him to the U.S. to make sure he got here safely. But for the rest of his life George like would not really talk about why they left their homeland. Okay. Eventually George found work with a railroad company in Pennsylvania and then moved to West Virginia for a more stable job.
00:12:34
Speaker
And then according to an article, the children who went up in smoke, after a few more years, he actually started his own trucking business. So impressive, like the American dream. At first he was hauling like field dirt to construction sites and then later started hauling coal because we're in West Virginia and that is the whole country.
00:13:00
Speaker
We know also that his wife, Jeannie, was also an Italian immigrant that had moved to West Virginia. So they met like at the store, her family owned, and then they got married. And apparently Fayetteville has a really large population of Italian immigrants, which I think is really interesting.
00:13:23
Speaker
So they built a two-story timber frame house just two miles out of town, and they both wanted a very large family. And in 1923, the first of their 10 children were born. Which I feel like was fairly common back then. Oh yeah, my mom is the youngest of 12. Oh yeah. My grandmother has several siblings, so yeah.
00:13:48
Speaker
So again, according to that, the children who went up and smoke article, George's business pro, like prospered and he became a really well-respected middle-class family in that town. But George had really strong opinions about many subjects and was not shy about expressing them.
00:14:14
Speaker
And in his community, it would sometimes like almost alienate people and his family. Like in particular, he had really strong opposition to the Italian dictator Mussolini. And it led to some very heated arguments with other members of that immigrant community.
00:14:40
Speaker
It's kind of like that phrase. Have you ever heard it? You attract more flies with honey than you do vinegar. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes when you are very like adamant and loud about your opinions, yeah, it drives people away. But despite ruffling some feathers, the Sauter family was, for the most part, well liked in town and well respected.
00:15:06
Speaker
They finally gave birth to their last child in 1943 to Sylvia. And this family, like I said, reminds me so much of my mom's family. So she is the youngest of 12. So her older siblings are obviously a lot older than her.
00:15:25
Speaker
Like, in fact, my mom's nephew is only, like she's only 18 days older than her nephew. So like my grandma and her daughter-in-law were pregnant at the same time. Wow. Which to me is like crazy. Crazy to think about. Yeah. Yeah. And my grandma was only like, she was like 40. So this was like a late in life baby, but still.
00:15:52
Speaker
So I kind of have a feeling for the big family. And by the time Sylvia was born, George and Jeannie's second oldest son, Joe, had left to serve in the military during World War II. So this is like right when America is entering World War II.
00:16:08
Speaker
In the Encyclopedia of Unsolved Crime, it says, quote, the following year, Mussolini was deposed and executed. However, George criticism of the late dictator had left some hard feelings, end quote. So that's kind of where we're at in the Sauter family life. Okay. Our case today begins on Christmas Eve. So not too far from now.
00:16:32
Speaker
I know already. Yeah, I already have like, we just put our outside lights up like a week ago, but inside is almost all the way done. I have one more tree to put up. I've already put it too. How many trees total do you have? Well, I have two full sized ones and then I have like a small one in my kitchen. So I still have to put the big one up downstairs. I'm a one treeer.
00:16:56
Speaker
Well we usually are one tree year but when we moved to this house because we have that like living space downstairs we made a tree like special for like Anthony's grandma's ornaments and then ornaments from my grandparents. Oh it's like a special tree down there. I like that. I'm curious so how many people are one tree years versus multi tree years.
00:17:18
Speaker
Oh, I can tell you the older I get, the more crazy my Christmas decorations get. So I would be curious to know if I'm alone. Are you a Maggie or an Allison? Are you a once a year or multiple? Yeah, we played that game before. Let's keep it going. On that Christmas Eve night, nine out of the 10 children were dreaming of sugarplum fairies and Santa coming down the chimney because the one brother was still away.
00:17:46
Speaker
And I'm sure that mom and dad were like imagining the smiles on their kids' faces as they were opening gifts that morning. Dad was probably wondering, what the heck did I get my kids for Christmas? Because mom bought everything. Yeah, because mom bought all of it. No one imagined, though, the terror that was about to strike for this family.
Bizarre Attempts to Save the Children
00:18:08
Speaker
As the family slept, a fire started in their house.
00:18:14
Speaker
Do we know how? Will we find out how? We find out two possibilities of how. OK. So like I said, this story has some weird twists and turns. So I want to go back just a little to Christmas Eve day. So with the excitement of gifts, the promise of Santa coming, Martha, who is 12,
00:18:40
Speaker
daughter Jeannie, who was eight, Betty, who was five, had begged to stay up like past their normal bedtime. And reluctantly, mom agreed. And at 10 p.m., mom told them that they could stay up just a little later because the two oldest boys that were at home were still awake. So we had 14-year-old Maurice and nine-year-old Lewis. So they were like,
00:19:05
Speaker
done putting the cows up. They had fed the chickens. So, you know, like, we're winding down. George, the one oldest son, John, and then George Jr., who was 16, like, were already passed out from the exhaustion of work that day. But those five were still awake. Okay.
00:19:29
Speaker
So she, mom like takes Sylvia upstairs and they all go to sleep. So the oddities started around midnight, which is strange, but around 12.30 a.m., so we're like early Christmas morning, Jeannie has woken to a phone call, like the telephone's ringing. So she goes out into the hall to answer the phone. And on the other end,
00:19:56
Speaker
Which is straight, well, I'll wait, I'll wait. On the other end, she heard a woman's voice that she'd never heard before. And then she heard like laughter, some strange clicking sounds in the background, like almost like people were like clinking glasses together or something was tapping on glass.
00:20:15
Speaker
So, she told the caller, like, she had the wrong number and, like, started to hang up the phone, but not before hearing this woman break out in what she would later recall as quote-unquote, weird laughter. Okay, I'm thoroughly creeped.
00:20:31
Speaker
Well, she just like puts it from her mind. She hangs up and goes back to bed. Um, she did notice that the lights were still on downstairs and the curtains weren't drawn. So two things that her kids normally would have done if they had stayed up later than their parents. Um, she sees like Marion's on this, like asleep on the couch. So she just assumes the mom that all the other kids have gone back up to like that. They all sleep in the attic, which I think is really cool.
00:21:01
Speaker
So she closed the curtains, turned out the lights and went back to bed. So she only physically sees one. Yeah. Which is sort of where like some of the issue comes in. Okay. But I mean, I get her assumption. I mean, if you see one, you assume everybody else is there. And like, you're not going to go like, I wouldn't think for your like, you know, teen, teenage children go upstairs to make sure they're all there. Like, you're just going to assume that they are. Right.
00:21:31
Speaker
Well, she wasn't asleep very long because at one o'clock, so 30 minutes later, she was awoken again by the sound of what she described as an object hitting the house's roof, like it was like a loud bang and then like a rolling sound.
00:21:48
Speaker
It's almost like something hit it and is rolling on down. Yeah. Like if you had like, I pictured it as like if maybe a walnut trees over your house and like. Oh yeah. A walnut hit some falls. We had a crab apple tree. And it would do that all the time at our friend's house. That's the first thing I thought of too. I hated those things. Now I've run over them every day on my way to work. That and walnuts are all over that road. Oh yeah.
00:22:15
Speaker
So like I'm sure I don't picture myself as like a little kid and like I'm dead asleep and I hear a thud on my roof and I'm like, it's Santa. It's the reindeer. Go back to sleep, it's Santa. Yeah. So, you know, I'm sure everybody, if they heard that, just like rolled back over and went to sleep. Jeanie stays up for just a second to listen to see if she hears anything else. You know, it's strange that the noise had even occurred.
00:22:43
Speaker
But after a few minutes and she doesn't hear anything else. She just naturally goes back to sleep, right? Sadly though she would awake again Shortly after Being you know woken up by that loud noise to the smell of smoke in fact I read that she was only asleep about 30 minutes before she woke up to that smell and
00:23:08
Speaker
She got out of the bed and found that the room that her husband, George used for his office was on fire, like smoke flames, the whole works. It's on fire all around like the telephone line and the fuse box. So she wakes her husband up and he goes and like wakes up all the kids, like the older sons, and they start evacuating the house. See now I'm wondering what really did hit the roof.
00:23:34
Speaker
Yeah, and that's one of the series of the fire. So both parents and four of their children, Mary and Sylvia, John and George Jr. escape the house. And like, you know, I'm like this at school. Like if we go outside, I'm like, okay, I'm taking 20 children outside. And then I'm like, okay, I have 20 children in the line. So like, I'm sure they were like, okay, one, two, three, four, like we're missing people who are missing.
00:24:03
Speaker
Well, I told you my elementary school burned down, didn't I, when I was in second grade? I don't know if you did or not. Were you there? Yes, we were in school. Yeah. This is why I said traumatic things happen to me. I don't know.
00:24:24
Speaker
Well, that can be a Patreon story. I know. Yeah. Find out about the time Allison school burnt down. Yes. During the school day. I lied though. I said second grade. It was third grade. I don't know why second grade. How dare you. I know. But I was in third grade. So we have mom and dad. We have four kids, but remember there's nine of them, nine children total. So we're missing five. Yeah.
00:24:54
Speaker
You know, from here, Allison, the story gets progressively more just like kind of strange. So the family who had made it safely out, they're like frantically yelling from the outside, like you guys need to come out, wake up, you know, blah, blah, blah. But they get no response back. And Allison, the kids that were left inside were the five that stayed up.
00:25:19
Speaker
I think the majority of them were the five that stayed up past their normal bedtime. Hmm.
00:25:26
Speaker
Which is strange. And according to the Smithsonian Magazine, George had tried to save them. Like he broke a window to reenter the house and the process sliced like a huge cut on his arm that he did not even notice because he had so much adrenaline pumping to try to rescue his kids. The fire and smoke was so thick that when he looked in the house, he could see nothing.
00:25:55
Speaker
So he made a sweep like a pass through all the downstairs rooms, living room, dining room, kitchen, the office, um, the, like the husband and wife's bedroom. No one's there. He took, you know, stock of what he knew, right? The two year old Sylvia whose crib was in their bedroom was safe outside. 17 year old Marion and his other two sons, 23 year old John.
00:26:18
Speaker
16-year-old George Jr. had all fled the upstairs bedroom that they shared. I mean like literally singeing the hair on the tops of their heads on the way out. Wow. So this fire is burning hot.
00:26:32
Speaker
Yes, and he figured that the other five, Maurice, Martha, Louis, Jeannie, and Betty, still had to be in the house, right? He's like, I know they're cowering in their bedrooms, and their bedrooms are split by hallway that's separated by the staircase. I know that's where they're at, but he can't get to them because that staircase is literally engulfed in flames. Oh my goodness.
00:26:59
Speaker
So thinking only of ways to save his kids, right? He's like, I have to do something. I have to do anything. The house phone would not work. Like could not get any dial tone operator on the house phone. So one of the other children ran to the neighbor's house, right? To phone the fire department, but at the neighbor's house could not get the operator to pick up. Like, what are you doing in this small town at one AM? Yeah. At this point. Yeah.
00:27:28
Speaker
That you cannot pick up the phone. So a neighbor who saw the house like a blaze made a call from a nearby tavern. But again, no response from the operator.
00:27:41
Speaker
The Smithsonian article said that by this point like everyone was exasperated and finally the neighbor drove into town and tracked down Fire Chief Morris who initiated like a literal version of the game telephone.
00:28:01
Speaker
So like he called one firefighter who called another, who phoned another, who phoned another until finally, like someone made contact with someone who was able to drive the fire truck. Like that was the whole- Oh my. So precious time wasted. Yeah. Yes. Like you just wait to see what time they, you just wait, you just wait.
00:28:27
Speaker
So in one article I read, it said that George climbed barefoot to break the glass in this window. Like I picture him scaling the house because both his ladders were missing from their usual spot.
00:28:41
Speaker
So he and his sons search everywhere around their house. The ladders are not where they typically keep them. So that's out the window for rescue. The water barrel that they keep that could have been used to help extinguish some of the fire was frozen solid because it's Christmas day.
00:29:01
Speaker
George was like, you know what? I'll pull one of my trucks over and I'll just climb on the top of that sucker and get into the attic window Well, he tries to start both trucks that he literally used in his business the day before and neither of them would start Okay, so this is I'm wondering if this is just horrific luck or if this is sabotage and
00:29:28
Speaker
Right? Because I feel like, okay, so my story obviously is bad luck, right? Like just things did not go my way. This I feel like is almost too coincidental. Oh, you can't find your ladders, your trucks don't start, the operator isn't picking up. So the next 45 minutes, the Sauter family literally watches as their house and potentially their children burn to a pile of ash.
00:29:59
Speaker
And the fire department, which was only two and a half miles away, did not arrive on the scene until 8 a.m. Oh my gosh. 8 a.m.
00:30:15
Speaker
If you could walk, you could walk there and be there. Your fire, their hose probably stretch from the fire station to the house. Oh my goodness. And like, we love the fire department. Rodney was a fire potter. We love them. But 8 a.m. Yeah. That's ridiculous. I can't defend that.
00:30:38
Speaker
And by this point, they have stood and watched literally their home burn down with five of their children, presumably inside. I don't even know what you do. Well, I read in one article that the mother and father were so upset that they could not even attend the funeral services for the children.
00:31:04
Speaker
Oh, I wouldn't be able to. Yeah, I don't know how you handle losing five kids. When the firefighters finally arrived, one of whom was the brother of the mom, so the kid's uncle, they could really do little more than shift through ashes hoping to find the remains of the missing five.
Investigating the Fire's Aftermath
00:31:26
Speaker
Wow, yeah, what do you want to do at this point to the ground? Yeah, yeah, like all they the family home did have a basement So like all of these ashes are just like in the family basement By 10 a.m. Fire chief Morris who by the way, like I said could not drive the fire truck thus
00:31:44
Speaker
only furthering the delay of someone from the fire department getting to their house. I feel like that should be a requirement. I think you should have to know how to do that.
00:31:58
Speaker
But he told the family that they found nothing, no bones, nothing to even indicate that the children had been in the house. Well, they have to be somewhere, buddy. Right. According to one account I read, they did find like a few bone fragments and what they thought were like internal organs. But I read they chose not to tell the family.
00:32:20
Speaker
I don't like it now. I've read that like only in one place. So I don't really think you have to make that choice. Yeah, like I don't think that's something you could be like. That's like if you found a quarter and you're like, I think I'll keep this quarter and not tell anybody like I found your loved ones remains. Maybe I'll just keep that a secret.
00:32:37
Speaker
I'm just not going to tell you. Nevertheless, Chief Morris believed that the five children unaccounted for had to have died in the fire. He suggested that the fire had been hot enough to burn their bodies completely, bones and all. The final ruling by the coroner was that the home caught fire due to faulty wiring and the children were essentially cremated. The fire got so hot.
00:33:06
Speaker
Hmm, which I debunk here in a little bit. I was going to say, I'm texting Rodney. Yeah. I'll just wait for you to do it. I was like, can a house fire burn so hot that there are no remains?
00:33:24
Speaker
According to the true crime files, George and Jeannie obviously are not satisfied with this explanation, right? Like, no. And they wanted an in-depth investigation to thoroughly explain how, among other things, faulty wiring could have caused a fire to burn so hot that it cremated their children. And like, how were their Christmas lights working? And like, all of this stuff literally
00:33:51
Speaker
30 minutes prior to this, everything was working on like it just doesn't make sense. And they suspected that there was something more to be discovered. And they were like, we want answers. Yeah. Cause didn't she wake up and she saw like the curtains weren't drawn and the lights were on. Yep. Hmm.
00:34:11
Speaker
She really did. So, you know, as usual with the cases that we cover, more evidence did come in, but more questions were generated. Absolutely. Yeah. We always have questions. Every time. So first is the obvious, right? The fact that we have no skeletal remains. Allison, the Sutter House was only on fire for about 45 minutes.
00:34:38
Speaker
So a quick Google search, which I know we didn't have Google in 1943, but like you had hired professionals, told me that it takes two to three hours for bones to burn to ash. And it has to be an extremely hot fire, like hotter than what the fire was at the solder house. And even with cremation,
00:34:58
Speaker
Like you still get bone fragments in cremation. Yeah. Like sometimes kind of like chunks of bone. So like either we miss something when we're like, you know, going through all these ashes or the children were not in the home when it caught fire. Right. So we can assume there are five skeletons in the basement of the solder home, you know, with the rest of the ashes.
00:35:25
Speaker
To further complicate the burn to ashes cremated story, I read that the mom reported finding several of the home's appliances intact in the rubble, could easily tell that's a toaster oven. That's my stove. If it's hot enough that it would burn bone,
00:35:48
Speaker
then it's going to melt. Exactly. Exactly. So basically the way their house was built, because it was that timber, that's why it burnt hot, but it burnt quick. Yes. Okay. So the two began their own investigation into the fire and into the disappearance. Like that's what we would call it now, right? They're five kids because we don't know where they're at.
00:36:15
Speaker
One oddity that they ran across came when they spoke to a bus driver. So I'm assuming that these people live fairly close to like a road that is traveled frequently. Because they talked to a bus driver who stated that he had seen what he called fireballs being thrown on the roof of the solder house and not their home burned to the ground. What are fireballs?
00:36:42
Speaker
So I read that basically it was kind of like they called it like a pineapple bomb or something I think is what it was like almost like a homemade grenade that they would throw up there and it's like on fire right and it just like
00:37:00
Speaker
catches your house on fire or whatever they're throwing it out on fire and they like found evidence of that like the containers that would look like they would house that like in the rubble is what I read in one article so like could that quote-unquote fireball have been like what genie heard the night that yeah rolling down yeah
00:37:30
Speaker
Like I think that makes sense. I do too. To add to their growing concern, those missing ladders, right? Air quotes missing were found over an embankment close to the family home. And when I say close to the family home, that's what I mean. Literally 75 feet away from the home, like over a little embankment and like none of the family moved them there. Okay. Yeah. And this was definitely.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's planned. Definitely, yeah. A telephone repairman told the family that the houses phone line had not been burned through in the fire as they initially thought, but rather had been cut by someone who was willing and able to climb the 14 foot pole and reach two foot away from the pole to be able to cut the line.
00:38:30
Speaker
Okay, between the ladders, the evidence of the fireball and this, like please tell me that they have since ruled that this is foul play, that this was not an accident. So we have some further investigations, like official ones that take place, but like you're not going to like what they say either.
00:39:00
Speaker
That's when I say to that. Pooey. A man whose neighbors had been stealing like block and tackle. I have no idea what that is. What is block and tackle? Is that like fishing things? I am going to assume so. That's what I think of. I have no idea. Tackle, I think of fish. Block, I don't know.
00:39:21
Speaker
Yeah, so apparently he'd been stealing that from the property like around the time of the fire. He was identified and arrested and like he admitted that he was stealing things from their property and claimed that he was the one who cut the phone line, thinking that it was a power line, but denied having anything to do with the fire. Block and tackle Maggie is a system
00:39:46
Speaker
of, this is Wikipedia's words, is a system of two or more pulleys with a rope or cable threaded between them, usually used to lift heavy loads. So it's like a big hoist. No, nothing to do with this. No, no, trout's being lifted there. Um, yeah, it's like a big hoist. So I guess then that makes sense though, that if he's, if those things have been stolen
00:40:17
Speaker
Right? Like, no, it doesn't really make sense. I don't know what he's doing. I'm just kidding. Unless he's lifting somebody to cut the line or just stealing them because he's going to use them like with his job. But like, why, even if you're stealing from someone, why would you cut utility lines?
00:40:48
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. Why? They're asleep. It's 1.30 in the morning. Just do your business and go. I want to know who this woman was with the maniacal laughter. Yeah. We don't ever find out. Oh. No, no idea.
00:41:05
Speaker
Another puzzling fact that the solders wanted answers for was like the trucks, right? Like why were they operating perfectly the day before and that night wouldn't even start. So obviously some say that the man who was stealing from the property obviously tampered with the trucks, but again, like why? I feel like when you're stealing from someone, like in his case, you have a specific thing in mind you want. So like why?
00:41:34
Speaker
Some say it was premeditated, perhaps the culprit that set the fire tampered with the trucks beforehand, knowing that they could be used to help rescue people or to get away or whatever. But there are still some who play devil's advocate and say that in a panic, the father and the son flooded the engines when trying to start the trucks. Which could be. Which could be true. Because listen,
00:42:03
Speaker
Before we had a fuel injector boat and I used to have to prime that engine. I flooded it every time on the boat ramp because I'd get nervous and I, yeah, it's bad. I've never had to do that.
00:42:20
Speaker
Bad memories. Bad memories. Now the Sauter family began to remember other strange occurrences that had taken place prior to the fires.
Ominous Warnings and Strange Visits
00:42:31
Speaker
A week before the fire, the Sauters began receiving or recalling strange instances. In an article I read from Penn State, there was apparently a stranger who appeared at the home in the fall of that year asking, hey, do you have any jobs?
00:42:50
Speaker
Like, I need work. And George is like, sorry, we're not hiring right now. I'm really sorry. To which the man says, points to fuse boxes on their house and says, quote, this is going to cause a fire someday. End quote.
00:43:07
Speaker
That's like so random to me. Yeah. And like, George had just had all their wiring checked by the local power company and they said it was fine. So George is just like, okay, this dude's like crazy and just chalked it up to being weird. Clairvoyant. Yeah. Seeing the future.
00:43:28
Speaker
And like, so at first I thought like, that's really random for somebody to point out. But then like, I thought about like, like somebody like Rodney who has a vast knowledge of lots of random things. Like I could see Rodney coming over to somebody's house and like, you're just having a random conversation and he's, he'd be like, Hey, you really probably need to get your like fuse box checked. That looks kind of iffy or whatever. You really need to get your, like you really need your tackle things.
00:43:56
Speaker
I'm oblivious to everything, so don't expect me to notice. I mean, we didn't even know what that, well, I don't even know what the tackle thingy was. What? Lock and tackle? Yeah. So the more I thought about it, like, I guess if it was the right person, then maybe the comment wouldn't be so offhand.
00:44:16
Speaker
So around that same time, another man tried to sell the family life insurance and got super mad when George declined. And like, that's one thing I hate about living in a subdivision is people knock on my door all the freaking time trying to sell me stuff. And one day, this little rant for Maggie, one day these people wanting to clean out our gutters, I'm sure we can do that ourselves. Thank you though.
00:44:43
Speaker
left a paper like wedged into like the glass screen door, like in between the glass screen door and like our front door, like right where our ring is. So all dang day, my ring kept, like the alarm on my phone kept going off. There's motion at your front door. There's motion at your front door. Oh no. You think you did it on purpose? Oh, I'm sure. And even if we couldn't reach the gutters, they would not have got our business because that drove me crazy that day.
00:45:11
Speaker
So in that Penn State article, the man is quoted to have said to George when he's like, nah, we don't want your life insurance. Your GD, except he said it, house is going to go up in smoke and your children are going to be destroyed. You are going to pay for the dirty remarks you've been making about Mussolini, end quote. Okay, so this tells me the political discussions have turned personal.
00:45:39
Speaker
Yeah. And a lot of people thank that. Like I read that he got in heated arguments with many members of the Italian community in his town. And at the time, like, like to the point he was receiving death threats, like not just like, you're arguing, but like he's receiving threat, like serious threats. And he's just like, okay, yeah, whatever. Like not taking any of these men seriously. Oh.
00:46:05
Speaker
Yeah, one of the older children recalled in that same Penn State article, quote, just before Christmas, they noticed a man parked along US 21 intentionally watching the younger kids as they came home from school, end quote.
00:46:23
Speaker
Yeah, I don't like that. Yeah, to me that makes it sound like this guy's like, yeah, trying to figure out their like home schedule, like what time everybody gets home. Like he's trying to kidnap these kids. That's what I, that's how I took that.
00:46:39
Speaker
And then if you're going down that route, is he kidnapping them? Like, is he part of like some Italian mob or something? And he's kidnapping them to get back at George for all of these Mussolini comments. But you know, if somebody did want to kidnap kids, that fire is the perfect cover up because then the assumption is going to be that they died in the fire and nobody's really going to come looking for him.
00:47:07
Speaker
Right. And you're just going to make conclusions like the fire chief did that everything got so hot that they just burnt completely up.
00:47:18
Speaker
And Allison, there are other possible sightings of these children. I read that one person who was like familiar with the family said that they clearly saw five children go into a strange car while the fire was blazing and that the car even stopped for a second to let the children peer out at the burning home. See, I don't know if I believe that because I feel like these kids are so young, they would have seen their siblings and parents standing outside.
00:47:46
Speaker
Right, but I read that maybe the kids were just like maybe understood the severity of the situation that they were in and their parents were in and just didn't say anything to protect their parents. Again, at a diner about 50 miles west of Fayetteville, a waitress would later say that she served breakfast to the five children on Christmas morning.
00:48:11
Speaker
Like she says, I swear to these kids, but I don't remember how many adults were with them or what they looked like. But she knows for sure she saw the five kids. Hmm.
00:48:24
Speaker
And she also remembers, which I think this is so specific, I almost feel like it has to be true, that there was a car with a Florida license plate in the parking lot. And she said that was just really peculiar, that wouldn't normally be there. Right, they're in West Virginia. Yeah.
00:48:43
Speaker
you're really far from home if you're in West Virginia from Florida. So I read that Jeannie and George go back to the police with their new findings and they're like, hey, can this case be reopened? We feel like there's sufficient evidence to say that maybe our children were kidnapped instead of perishing in the fire, but the police deny the request and this case is closed, it's solved.
00:49:09
Speaker
But it's not. And I read that in 1947, George would make an appeal directly to J Edgar Hoover. So like the FBI guns. Yeah. The top dog to get the FBI involved. And he actually received a personal reply back from Hoover.
00:49:30
Speaker
personally wrote him back and he said in that note back to George, quote, although I would like to be of service, the matter related appears to be of local character and does not come within the investigative jurisdiction of this bureau, end quote.
00:49:46
Speaker
And like he went on to say like FBI agents would be happy to assist the local authorities Like if we get the go-ahead from them But the police department and the fire department both said like we don't need you I can't I don't understand why a small local Fire police department wouldn't accept help From a bigger that doesn't make sense to me
00:50:14
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like if it were me, I'd be like, yes, please, if the I can help me solve this case. Yeah. And then you're still going to get props because people are going to be like, you had to wear with all to contact somebody bigger.
Discovering Links to Foul Play
00:50:27
Speaker
So you'd have more resources. Yeah, exactly.
00:50:32
Speaker
Well, the Solder family, they are still not giving up and they hire a private investigator with the last name Tinsley who discovered that the insurance salesman who had threatened George was also a member of the coroner's jury that deemed the fire accidental. Oh, that's not a good connection.
00:50:53
Speaker
He also heard a curious story from a minister that Sheriff Morris, like regarding him, that although he claimed no remains were found, he supposedly confided to this minister that he discovered a quote unquote heart in the ashes and hid it inside a box and buried it at the scene of the crime. What?
00:51:20
Speaker
like very Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs right here. Like that's crazy to me. So this private investigator ran with this theory and actually talked to Sheriff Morris, not Sheriff, Chief Morris. I think I said that in the last one too. It was Chief, not Sheriff, if I said that. To show them the spot where like this heart supposedly was buried and they dug up this box
00:51:46
Speaker
Okay. And took it to the local funeral director who, this is literally out of the article, poked and prodded the heart and concluded that it was a beef liver, which had been untouched by the fire. Oh my goodness. So again, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs with the Huntsman and the heart of the, whatever he put in that box. Like this is my goodness. I don't understand why, why. Yeah.
00:52:16
Speaker
Yeah. I found an arm over here. Oh, yeah. Nope. Just kidding. JK. It's a I don't even know. It's a carrot. Yeah, it's a carrot. That's ridiculous. Yeah, I have.
00:52:35
Speaker
No idea. And soon after, the Sauter family would hear rumors that the fire chief had told others that the contents of the box hadn't been found at the fire at all, that he'd like buried the liver there in hopes that finding the remains would like shut the family up, basically. Like they're like, Oh yeah, here's some remains. Our children have to be here. Let's quit pushing this investigation further. But he didn't show them the remains. He buried them. None of this fire chief is making sense.
00:53:05
Speaker
In a box. Yeah, none of that is making sense to me. Because I feel like if I found a box in the ashes of a burned down home, I wouldn't say, let's open this up to see if the remains of my children are inside this box. Yeah, and then be like, oh, just kidding. It's only beef liver in here.
00:53:21
Speaker
And over the next few years, the tips and leads continued to come in and George followed up on all of them. He saw a newspaper photo of school children in New York City and was convinced that one was his daughter, Betty. He literally drove to Manhattan to search for this child. Like that. Drove there. Found the family, but the parents refused to speak to him, which I think is strange.
00:53:48
Speaker
Well, I mean, I'll get their point too. Cause like, that's kind of kooky, but somebody showed up at my house and they were like, your sleuth hound is my missing child. I'd be like, go away. You're not talking to her.
00:54:00
Speaker
Yeah, like I literally pushed her out, go away. Yeah. In 1949, the sorters decided to mount a new search at the fire scene, and this time they brought in like specialists from Washington, D.C., this pathologist named Oscar Hunter. And this investigation and evacuation was thorough.
00:54:22
Speaker
They uncovered several small objects, damaged coins, like partly burned dictionaries, and actual several shards of vertebrae. And Hunter sent those bones to the Smithsonian Institute, and they released the following report. So this comes directly from
00:54:41
Speaker
their report. The human bones consisted of four lumbar vertebrae belonging to the same individual. Since the transverse recesses are fused, the age of this individual at death should have been 16 to 17 years. The top limit of age should be 22, since the center, which normally fused at 23, was still unfused. On this basis, the bones show greater skeletal maturation
00:55:09
Speaker
than one would expect for a 14-year-old boy, the oldest missing daughter's child. It is, however, possible, although not probable, that a boy 14 and a half years old to show 16 to 17 maturation. So the vertebrae that they found doesn't quite fit with the age of the oldest child.
00:55:32
Speaker
Yeah, so they're saying it's possible that he could be a little further developed, but not probable. And they go on to say the vertebrae showed no evidence that they had been exposed to fire. Oh, that's super weird. Yeah, the report said, quote, it's very strange that no other bones were found in the allegedly careful excavation of the basement of this house, end quote.
00:55:59
Speaker
So they only found the bones for one person. Yeah. And it's not exposed to fire. Yes. And noting that the house reportedly burned for only about a half hour or so, the report said, quote, one would expect to find full skeletons of five children rather than only four vertebrae, end quote. But my question is this, if it's not one of their children, whose bones are they?
00:56:25
Speaker
So apparently George which again that question isn't answered and this really doesn't help you know put that question to ease but apparently George had like covered over the basement and they kind of like made it like a garden memorial thing for their five kids and so
00:56:46
Speaker
The hat report says that the bones most likely came in the supply of dirt George used to fill the basement to create the memorial for his children.
State Hearings and FBI Involvement
00:57:00
Speaker
Oh, so this person was killed elsewhere. Yeah, which does absolutely, just again, does absolutely nothing. Watch out when you're planting those flowers. I mean, golly. But this new investigation and its findings attracted national attention, which was really good.
00:57:18
Speaker
The West Virginia legislature held two hearings on the case in the 50s, but the governor and state police superintendent both told the family that the case was literally quote unquote hopeless. And then closed it again at the state level. The FBI decided it had jurisdiction as a possible interstate kidnapping, but dropped the case only two years after taking it over, following fruitless leads.
00:57:46
Speaker
So they're like, we can't find anything. So case closed. Yeah, so we're out too.
00:57:53
Speaker
It appeared that everybody was giving up on the solder children, but their parents, so they passed out flyers, they bought a billboard, offered rewards, all in the hopes that someone would lead them to their kids. And their efforts weren't in vain. Several tips did come in. And like I said, George followed up on every single tip. In 1968, more than 20 years after the fire, they would get a piece of mail,
00:58:20
Speaker
And that male was like an envelope addressed to the mom, and it was postmarked in Kentucky. So super close to West Virginia. Yeah, if you don't know, like American geography, West Virginia and Kentucky share a border. But it had no return address. But weirdly, inside was a photo of a man in his mid 20s. And on the flip side of that,
00:58:46
Speaker
was a really strange handwritten note that read, Louis Soder. Which is one of their kids. Which was one of their kids. And then, this doesn't make sense to me, but it said, I love Brother Frankie. And then like had some numbers after it.
00:59:04
Speaker
And so like mom and dad cannot deny the resemblance to their son who was nine at the time of the fire. So like beyond the obvious similarities, right? All these kids are Italian. They have dark curly hair. They have dark brown eyes. They have the same straight strong nose, like the same upward tilt of like the left eyebrow. And so they're like, this is our kid. This is him.
00:59:31
Speaker
And so they hire another private detective, and I did not read this detective's name anywhere, and sent him to Kentucky to find where this letter came from. They like, pay him. They're like, see you. And like, keep contact. Good luck tracking down who wrote this letter. Never hear from him again, ever. Oh, man. Which I think is just like the lowest of the low. Yeah, after everything they've been through already,
00:59:58
Speaker
Right, yes. And the surviving slaughter children joined by actually their own children, so like the grandchildren of George, continue to publicize the case and investigate any leads that came in. They, along with older Fayetteville residents, have theorized that it was like the Sicilian Mafia,
01:00:21
Speaker
that was trying to get money from George. They took the children and they planned this arson so they could get them safely out of the house, which I think was weird. Another theory that circulated was that perhaps these children were possibly taken back to Italy by the Sicilian Mafia. But again, I find that kind of hard to believe. Right, yeah.
01:00:49
Speaker
Because to me, if the children were taken, I think they were taken, but if they were taken and kept alive, wouldn't they know they had a family? Right. Oh, yeah. And wouldn't they try to get back to their family, especially
01:01:13
Speaker
I mean, I'm sure they eventually would have gotten jobs or like, you know, whatever. So when they're kind of free of the watchful eye of whoever possibly kidnapped them, would they not try to get back to their people? I mean, that's what I would think. I mean, then again, maybe they stayed away because they knew that they would endanger their families if they went back, maybe. Gosh, this is...
01:01:41
Speaker
Hmm. I know, it's a strange one.
01:01:45
Speaker
And Sylvia Sauter, so the youngest family member, she actually died in early 2021, so not that long ago.
Sylvia's Lifelong Search
01:01:55
Speaker
And she was in the house sent out of the fire, and she recalls her earliest memory of the fire in this quote. She said to the Gazette Mail in 2013, quote, I was the last one of the kids to leave home. I experienced their grief, meaning her mother and father, for a long time.
01:02:13
Speaker
end quote. She believed her siblings survived that night and assisted with efforts to find them and publicize their case. Her daughter said in a 2006 interview, quote, she promised my grandparents she wouldn't let the story die, that she would continue to do everything she could, end quote. Yeah, this is a tough one because
01:02:35
Speaker
I'm with you. I'm not convinced that they perished in the fire because I feel like there would have been some sort of evidence there. I do think that the fire was purposefully set with the ladders moved and
01:02:52
Speaker
the vehicle's not starting. Now we were questioning like the vehicle's not starting and in my head I was thinking that doesn't really fit to me with the fire because like obviously even if you can't escape by driving away you could still run away as long as you get out unless somebody did take the children and perhaps
01:03:20
Speaker
they did something to the vehicle so the vehicles wouldn't start so that George couldn't hop in his vehicle to chase after them. Right. Like to me, I think that they were taken from their living room. Like before they even went up to bed. And I think that's why the lights were on and the curtains were closed. Like I think the brother that was asleep on the couch was already asleep and that's when the others were kidnapped. Now how that happened quietly
01:03:50
Speaker
I don't know. And if there's a link with the phone call, I don't know. Right. Like maybe that was like a signal like, yeah, they're all asleep. Could be. I don't know. I don't know either. Or like, oh, maybe a warning to the family like, hey, somebody has your kids. Yeah. Either way, it's creepy. Right.
01:04:13
Speaker
Logic is such a weird idea if you really think about it. For example, I know when I unplug my curling iron, but I always second guess myself. I cannot tell you the amount of times Anthony and I have had to turn back on road trips to double check everything is unplugged. The last time I physically saw that nothing was in the surge protector, but I still had to unplug the surge protector.
01:04:37
Speaker
Why? Was it logical? Probably not, but sometimes our brains don't like the logical response. And sometimes the logical response isn't really logical at all.
Continuing the Quest for Truth
01:04:50
Speaker
We want to say that logically the missing slaughter children died in that fire. At least that gives us some closure.
01:04:57
Speaker
But so much plays into the conclusion that makes that illogical. So many factors make us question if dying in the house fire really was a logical explanation. Jeannie and George did all they could to discover the face of their children. For decades, anyone traveling down Route 16 near Fayetteville, West Virginia could see a billboard wearing the grainy pictures of five children, the slaughter children.
01:05:22
Speaker
All the children had dark hair and solemn eyes. All of them presumed dead. Their names and ages are as follows. Maurice, 14, Martha, 12, Louise, 9, Jeanie, 8, Betty, 5. Those five solemn faces have haunted a family in a town for decades. It's our hope that with your help, Sleuthhounds, we can find out the true fates of the Sodder children.
01:05:46
Speaker
Again, please like and join us on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast to continue the conversation and to see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Instagram at Coffee Cases podcast and on TikTok at Coffee and Cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to Coffee and Cases podcast at gmail.com.
01:06:08
Speaker
Please tell your friends about our podcast so that more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to write our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.