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Episode 5: Shannon Rapp
231 Plays7 days ago
Daniel talks to Shannon Rapp about topics such as how to create fresh theme ideas, the power of theme queries, the secrets to a successful collaboration, the best crossword resources, training for tournaments, representing the Midwest, her favorite puzzles and constructors, advocating for asymmetry, and much, much more.
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Transcript
Introduction to Crosstalk Podcast
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello, puzzle people. My name is Daniel g Grinberg, and you're listening to episode number five of Crosstalk, the crossword construction podcast. In this show, I'll be talking to other crossword constructors to learn more about how they work and what inspires them.
00:00:28
Speaker
Whether you're a current constructor, an aspiring one, or a fellow word nerd who wants to find out how a puzzle gets made, this show will be a forum to share insights and learn from each other.
Meet Shannon Rapp: Crossword Creator
00:00:38
Speaker
For the fifth episode of Crosstalk, I'm joined by none other than Shannon Rapp. Shannon is a research administrator at Washington University Medical School in St. Louis, as well as a mom to two cats and one high schooler.
00:00:51
Speaker
She started making crosswords in 2020 and has published at an incredibly prolific rate since then, with puzzles in venues such as AVCX+, LA Times, Universal, Incubator, PUSMO, Slate, and many more.
00:01:08
Speaker
in addition to being a crossword mentor, reviewer, and blogger. Shannon, thanks so much for taking the time to speak with me today and giving us a clue about how you work. Thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan of the show and I'm very excited to be here.
00:01:23
Speaker
Oh, thank you so much. So then you might know my first question, which is how did you begin solving crosswords?
Early Crossword Influences
00:01:31
Speaker
I think that I have an origin story that's pretty similar to a lot of other people. You know, I had an older relative when I was young who had a crossword habit.
00:01:43
Speaker
In my case, it was my grandmother who would cut out the Sunday New York Times crossword and leave it on her coffee table for the duration of the week. And her house was a busy place. People were always coming and going.
00:02:00
Speaker
It was very common for anybody to walk in pick up the crossword puzzle and work on it for five or 10 minutes and then set it down. That was my exposure into solving crossword.
00:02:13
Speaker
And i did take a long break as I went to school and started a family and I had a kid, you know, that takes a lot of time. So I definitely had a long stretch of time where I wasn't solving. But when I came back to it, when my daughter was a little bit older, it felt really familiar. I just dove right back in. And I did, in fact, pick up with the Sunday New York Times crossword. And it kind of spiraled from there.
00:02:40
Speaker
Do you also leave it out and have everyone else solve it? Thankfully, it doesn't take me all week to solve anymore. ah ah But my daughter is 15. I've tried to get her to solve puzzles with me. She's not really all that interested.
00:02:54
Speaker
I will sometimes solve some puzzles with friends or with a partner, but most of the time for me, it's a solitary practice. Yeah. I do not have the patience to wait on someone when I'm trying to solve. I'm like, come on, it's obviously Oreo churro.
00:03:11
Speaker
And then what led you to make the transition from solving to constructing?
From Solver to Constructor
00:03:17
Speaker
I'm someone who didn't really know where crosswords came from.
00:03:22
Speaker
i didn't know that They're made by real people who send them into newspapers. And sometime around 2019 or 2020, I started seeing content come across my social media. I began following crossword constructors on Twitter.
00:03:40
Speaker
And that's when I sort of had the realization that, wow, people just like me are the people who are writing crosswords for podcasts. basically all of the outlets that you can solve crosswords at. So I thought to myself, maybe this is something I could do too.
00:03:59
Speaker
And I just dove right in. Never looked back. And how long did it take to get your first acceptance? I didn't actually start submitting things for a long time. I started my blog right at the beginning of 2021.
00:04:13
Speaker
And i had been dabbling for a little while up until that point, but right at the beginning of January in 2021, I put up a blog and it was months before I even started to develop an interest in submitting puzzles to publication.
00:04:28
Speaker
Big reason for that is just that I didn't think I was that good. And i didn't think I could be that good. i just was doing it for the enjoyment of making crosswords and I had started to make friends in the community.
00:04:41
Speaker
So to answer your question, Late in 2021, so I had been making crosswords for almost a full year, I had two separate conversations with two people who had established themselves as newcomers, and they were both separately venturing into these new projects. And both of those people encouraged me to apply and submit to their new projects.
00:05:05
Speaker
And I didn't expect anything to happen. But what actually happened is that both of those submissions were emphatically accepted with big fat yeses.
00:05:16
Speaker
Both of those puzzles appeared under the AVCX umbrella in the beginning of 2022. And that's when I actually started submitting to publications. That gave me the confidence.
00:05:27
Speaker
Wow, that's impressive that you were doing it for yourself for that long. So you kind of arrived fully formed by the time you were submitting. I totally agree with that. I think that doing all of that work, when I first started my blog, I was putting out a puzzle a week and I didn't know what I was doing.
00:05:42
Speaker
I was just making them as fast as I could and learning as much as I could. And I was making a lot of friends in the community and I had started working with people and I was just taking everything in.
00:05:54
Speaker
So by the time that i was confident enough to start submitting, I did have a really good foundation and a lot of practice. And I think that probably made a huge difference in what looked like maybe, wow, that came out of nowhere.
00:06:09
Speaker
Absolutely. So what were some of the things that you learned in those early days?
Constructing with Care
00:06:14
Speaker
Gosh, you know, i think that the most valuable thing that I learned in my first year or so was to slow down.
00:06:23
Speaker
When you slow down and you take the time to really iterate and try as many things as you can. When you're open to hearing feedback, especially, you take the time and you put in the effort to find interesting themes and clever wordplay and grids that feel really clean and smooth.
00:06:45
Speaker
It really pays off. Early constructors, you just want to make them as quickly as you can. And you want to get them out into the world as quickly as you can. and you want people to look at your work and be like, wow, you're brilliant when the truth is that you need a lot of practice.
00:06:59
Speaker
So I think it's really important to just take a breath, step back and really continue to evaluate your work and push yourself to get better. Yeah, I remember thinking when I first started, wow, I filled the puzzle.
00:07:14
Speaker
All of these things are words. And I thought that was kind of the standard. And then I learned fillable and publishable are very different standards.
00:07:25
Speaker
It's such a magic moment when your crossword construction program does that for the first time. It's like, yes, you made a crossword. And then you give it to somebody and they're like, you know, maybe this could use some work.
00:07:40
Speaker
Exactly. So while we're talking about constructing, I wanted to ask if you have a preferred way to work.
Generating and Distinguishing Themes
00:07:47
Speaker
The location, time of day, are you listening to music?
00:07:52
Speaker
Set the scene for us. I tend to work on puzzles pretty much all the time. While I do tend to be a bit of an early bird, I like to get work done early in the day.
00:08:03
Speaker
i often work on crosswords before I log in into my real job, but I always have my construction program open. in the background of whatever else that I'm doing. Physically, i have two big screens above my laptop.
00:08:16
Speaker
My vision isn't the best, so I need one big screen with just my puzzle on it. And I'm constantly looking things up at the same time. I can picture that. And let's say you're about to start working on a new themed puzzle.
00:08:31
Speaker
How would you go about starting to generate a theme idea? So this is one of my favorite questions because maybe I've become more of a theme constructor, but certainly when I started, i wasn't because I didn't know where crossword themes come from.
00:08:50
Speaker
I didn't know how people think of them. And I still don't know how people just think of them. But my process is I'm just always listening, reading, watching, and solving crosswords.
00:09:05
Speaker
And that's where I find all of my ideas. My ideas for themes come from things that I hear about in the world. And I almost work exclusively revealer first.
00:09:18
Speaker
So I see a phrase in the wild that sounds like a revealer to me. And I've trained my brain to pause and say, could that be a crossword?
00:09:30
Speaker
There are a lot of people that I've worked with and that I've heard from that work the opposite way. They have a thing they want to put in a crossword and they build a theme around and That's one popular strategy.
00:09:41
Speaker
Or some people can look at letter patterns or word patterns and find properties of phrases that they can expand into a full theme.
00:09:53
Speaker
I don't really have those skills, or at least maybe I haven't really worked on developing them. So when I see a phrase in the wild that looks and sounds like a revealer to me, I will go to my computer and look for things that could fit into that theme. And that's really how I get my ideas.
00:10:13
Speaker
Can you give us an example of a recent revealer that came to you in the wild? So a recent puzzle of mine was published in November 2024 in the LA Times. This is a puzzle that I wrote with Owen Bergstein.
00:10:26
Speaker
The revealer in that puzzle, spoilers, is Breakup Song. We found four words for songs, carol, dirge, anthem, and ballad, and broke those up across the grid with black blocks so that they end and start other words.
00:10:47
Speaker
Do you ever choose the genre of theme first and then try to generate an idea from that? Generally, I don't. I am working on a puzzle right now that is going to come up in the l LA Times sometime, maybe in the fall or the winter, that originated from that kind of thing.
00:11:03
Speaker
I had heard that the folks at the l LA Times were in search of certain kinds of grids. And I thought to myself, it's a little difficult for me, but maybe this is something I could do. So I did start looking for phrases that contained relevant words.
00:11:20
Speaker
I'd say I do it about half the time, but now that I'm reflecting on it, I feel like the ones that start Revealer first generally have been more successful. So there might be something to that.
00:11:33
Speaker
That's really interesting. i don't operate under the second mode very often, but when I do, the challenge for me is finding a Revealer or a title that fits the set that you've built.
00:11:46
Speaker
Well, as I said, it usually hasn't worked. So you've been incredibly prolific. You've published dozens of crosswords in any given year and over 150 since you started back in 2020.
00:12:00
Speaker
How do you keep coming up with themes that you feel are fresh enough? Those numbers to me feel unreal because I still every day go into this business thinking that I don't belong here.
00:12:15
Speaker
I look back at the four people that you've had on the show so far, and I feel those four people are some of my favorite constructors. And I wake up every day and I'm overwhelmed with a volume of crosswords from people who are so talented and keep coming up with fresh ideas. And to look at my numbers and say, yeah, I've got like 160 publications, collabed with 40 people. I've written for just about every outlet that there is.
00:12:44
Speaker
minus a couple. And because I'm always just sort of putting that in the back of my mind, I try not to think about that. And I just try to keep getting better. I just try to keep making more puzzles and working with more people and finding a space for me in the community that wants to hear from me.
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah, I totally get that. And just to expand a little bit, I've been submitting to Universal a lot lately, and I've gotten some acceptances, but the teams repeatedly said, oh, this theme is really similar to this other theme we had in 2020, or it reminds us of this one that's coming out in a few months.
00:13:28
Speaker
So how do you make your ideas feel distinct and exciting to teams that see so many submissions day in, day out? Well, I get that too.
00:13:38
Speaker
i think prevention is the best cure here. There are databases out there. Cruciverb is the one that I use most frequently, but there are other options and some of them are free.
00:13:50
Speaker
you know that Crosserville has a database. I know that Crossword Tracker has some details. You can search Sally's blog for USA Today specific items, and you can search Crossword Fiend.
00:14:03
Speaker
So there are a lot of places out there where you can make sure that you're not duplicating something that has already been published. I have found taking care of that myself reduces the amount of times that I hear that from editors.
00:14:18
Speaker
Yeah, one advantage you have is that you're involved in a lot of crossword media. you're already attuned to what potential new angles there might be. I solve a lot of crosswords.
00:14:29
Speaker
I solve essentially all of the crosswords. Basically all of them. There are seven full-size print puzzles every day. i do all of them every day.
00:14:42
Speaker
And i do most of the minis and midis that alternative publications are putting out. i do most of the blog puzzles that come across my radar.
00:14:53
Speaker
Not only does that feed the machine, it constantly keeps my brain running and looking for things that could be crossword ideas. It also helps me say, no, I remember somebody already did that theme. And I will go and punch it into Cruciverb. And yes, in fact, somebody has already done that theme. There was a little twitch somewhere in my brain that was like, yeah, this sounds too familiar. go look it up.
00:15:19
Speaker
That happens to me all the time. I think it happens to most crossword constructors is you have an idea and you find out one way or another, someone has already done it. Yeah. I do have to ask you a question that I asked Rafa in episode one, which is just How do you have the time? Because as I said, you've already published 150 plus crosswords, plus you're doing all of these crosswords every single day. Like that is just unfathomable to me. Wow.
00:15:45
Speaker
I would say it's part obsession. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that approach. Part of it also is that I do work from home and my job is relatively flexible. It goes through very busy periods and long, slow periods.
00:16:04
Speaker
Well, it is very impressive. And once you've come up with a theme idea and you're ready to move forward, what's your process for gridding and filling the grid? First, I will make sure that
Efficient Submission Strategies
00:16:15
Speaker
it hasn't been done.
00:16:16
Speaker
Another point here is there's an intermediate step for me almost all the time in that I don't immediately go from theme idea to making a puzzle. I rarely submit to publications where that's a requirement.
00:16:30
Speaker
I most frequently submit to USA Today and the Universal Crossword. And under both of those publications' current specs, you just send a theme idea.
00:16:42
Speaker
And sending a theme query is, in my opinion, such a time saver. Because when you put forth the effort and the time to complete an entire grid, write an entire set of clues, and send that off to a publication that doesn't take theme queries, you've put a lot of investment into something that you don't know if it even has a chance.
00:17:08
Speaker
So I like to say that it's a time saver for me, but it's also just like a sanity saver. I'm much more interested in working on something that I know has already been accepted. So that big step in the middle is crucial for me.
00:17:23
Speaker
Once I finish a theme idea and I've done my diligence in making sure it's ever been published, or if it has, i have a different spin on it. I just send that to an editor. When they get back to me, that's when I feel like the real work starts.
00:17:37
Speaker
And I definitely appreciate the theme query because I've mostly been making Sundays for the Times lately. So it's extra frustrating when you spend weeks tinkering and toiling over a 21 by 21.
00:17:49
Speaker
And then the end result is just, no, we don't think so. But okay, so let's say you hear back from the theme query and they give you the green light. What do you do next?
00:18:01
Speaker
I think my process is pretty much the same as most people's. You lay out your theme entries first, symmetrically if they are, not always. Put blocks before and after letters that are difficult to fill around or that typically come more frequently at the beginning or at the end of words.
00:18:20
Speaker
Gritting and filling for me are the same process.
Unique Voice in Crosswords
00:18:24
Speaker
the iteration of placing black blocks around the grid and seeing how that fill develops, it's all the same step for me. And I will keep chugging. I will grind away at a grid for as long as it takes in one sitting to find something that I'm happy with.
00:18:43
Speaker
Sometimes I'll let it sit and marinate if there's something I'm not sure about. But most of the time ah do all that work at once. Most of the time I'm doing easy puzzles, early week, universal, USA Today type of puzzles, right? So I'm not dealing with a lot of grid tricks or difficult vocabulary.
00:19:04
Speaker
So I found a bubble in which my skills and what some editors are looking for match Yeah. And speaking of Phil, on your blog, you give a nice summary of your approach and you write, quote, I make the puzzles I want to see, female forward, inclusive of modern culture, ah little NSFW, little Gen X, ancient millennial, a little Midwestern, and no sports, which I'm guessing means sports.
00:19:35
Speaker
What led you to identify those characteristics as being part of your voice? Just like everyone else, I started solving crosswords with the New York Times. And so many of the puzzles that they were putting out 20 years ago, 10 years ago, and often still today, are filled with things that are alien to me.
00:20:00
Speaker
Things like sports content. I don't know anything about a sport that's not baseball. Things that appeal to people who've been classically educated. I'm not. things about say Greek mythology or golf or old movie stars.
00:20:16
Speaker
There are a lot of things in crosswords that I don't know. And these are the things that originally when I started making crosswords and when I wrote that little blurb for my blog, and it has stayed there for reason is because I want to make the kinds of puzzles that feel good to me to solve.
00:20:38
Speaker
So You won't find things in my puzzles that feel unfamiliar to me. So I make the puzzles that I think should exist. And that's who I am. That description that you read, that's just who I am. Yeah. And that's the beauty of having a range of constructors with a range of interests is that no one puzzle has to speak to every person.
00:21:00
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. do you have any examples of how that blurb has manifested in your puzzles? Especially in the early days of my blog, I was trying to put musical references and puzzles that Felt familiar to me. I was doing.
00:21:18
Speaker
was doing. Late 90s. Pop punk. Right. Like you don't see that in crosswords. I was doing a lot of really nerdy stuff. About rocks and minerals.
00:21:29
Speaker
And i was using. Right. Like you don't. These are not things that you come across. In the New York Times crossword. All that frequently. I was doing deep.
00:21:40
Speaker
Deep dive stuff on. things that are local to me. i am Midwestern. I've lived in St. Louis my entire life. So you'll see a lot of reference to St. Louis things in my puzzles and the Midwest in general.
00:21:54
Speaker
Cardinals baseball is an obvious one, but things that nobody would recognize unless they were from here. And it's just because I like putting myself into my art. I think Everyone should do that. Your art should feel like you.
00:22:07
Speaker
When somebody solves a crossword, they should get an idea of who you are. so I try to do that in my own puzzles. Absolutely. And then what's your approach to cluing? And along those same lines, how do you make cluing feel like you?
00:22:22
Speaker
ah Cluing is the part of puzzle making that takes me the longest. Some people identify themselves as gritters or cluers, and I'm definitely a gritter. One of these days, I'm going to find a cluer and interview them because everyone I talk to is a critter.
00:22:36
Speaker
So cluing is the part of the process that always takes me the longest. I find that I have to look up a lot of things. And when I do that, i end up reading and reading, reading everything on the internet about something to find something interesting to me or something that I haven't seen in a crossword in that exact way.
00:22:56
Speaker
I look for fresh ankles. I look for new media. I look for things that could be creative to spark in me something creative or something funny because those are not things that come naturally to me.
00:23:09
Speaker
Yeah, I do like putting in little in-jokes to myself and almost making the puzzle time capsule of whatever I'm thinking about when I'm writing it. Oh, all the time.
The Value of Collaboration
00:23:21
Speaker
And then I wanted to talk about collaboration since, as you mentioned, you've collaborated with dozens of people and you've collaborated with Will Eisenberg in particular over 50 times. You've also collaborated with people whose work I really like, like Rebecca Goldstein and Brian Callahan.
00:23:39
Speaker
How does working with someone else affect your process? I learn something from somebody every time that I do a collaboration. And like you said, Will and I have collaborated many, many times. And just today we were working on a theme idea. We sent two theme queries off and I learned things from working with him today.
00:24:01
Speaker
Still, even 50 puzzles and And that's the primary reason why I do it, why I'm constantly reaching out to people. i just love working with new people. I love getting to know new constructors, especially people that are just coming into Crosswords, because I feel like the newer and the fresher the voice the more interesting the art is that they're going to make because they haven't yet been formed into convention. but You know, like they're not forming themselves around some lesson that they've learned.
00:24:34
Speaker
You constantly are improving when you work with new people. I love it. It's the best part of crosswords for me is working with collaborators. oh So you mentioned you learned something from Will every time you work together and you've worked together over 50 times.
00:24:49
Speaker
Can you share the 50 lessons that you've learned so far? Yeah. Yeah, we learn a lot of things together. so this morning while we were working on a theme query together, and we've also been practicing for NPL is coming up. I'm sure by the time this comes out, NPL will have happened, but we're both going to the National Puzzlers League. So we've been practicing puzzles with that.
00:25:11
Speaker
Every time we find a new word, we have to learn something about that and we have to put it in the context of whatever it is that we're working on. So we learned the word PELF, P-E-L-F.
00:25:22
Speaker
Do you know this word? Yeah, I do. I learned it from crosswords. I had never heard it before yesterday. Then this morning, as we were working on a theme idea, was like, does the word pelf enter this conversation in any way? Does it mean something useful or helpful here? Of course it didn't.
00:25:40
Speaker
But that's the idea is to just be open to it. Yeah. And if you're going to be collaborating with someone for the first time, what do you have to figure out to make sure you're on the same page?
00:25:53
Speaker
I think someone who's a gritter and someone... who's a cluer, go really well together. That's one of the first things that I'll talk about with someone is, do you feel more comfortable cluing or gridding?
00:26:04
Speaker
Especially if I'm working with someone new, I'm competent enough at cluing. It's not my favorite, but I'm competent enough at cluing that if the new person says, well, I would rather work more on the grid than the clues, then and that sounds great to me.
00:26:17
Speaker
Playing to each other's strength is what really makes the magic in a collaboration. So most of the time, When Will and I are working, I'm generally preferring to work on the grids and he's generally preferring to work on the clues.
00:26:33
Speaker
It's a really good collaboration for us both because I'm working where I'm stronger and he's working where he's stronger. I do a lot of theme research and he does a lot of theme ideas.
00:26:45
Speaker
So again, when you find somebody that complements your strengths and your weaknesses, that's where magic can really happen. I think a lot of times when I'm working with someone too is like, what are their goals for this puzzle that we're working on specifically? And also what are their goals more broadly?
00:27:02
Speaker
i definitely know that my least favorite part is coming up with themes. So if anyone out there is listening and loves that part, hit me up.
00:27:12
Speaker
But I am curious. So when you're working with someone like Will, are you both working simultaneously? Are you emailing back and forth? How does that work? I think it was Rachel on your show who said that she has the text chain with her collaborators that say,
00:27:26
Speaker
Could this be a thing? Could this be a thing? Could this be a thing? Is this a thing? Will and I do the same thing. We will just send each other a message. Most of our collaboration happens over Discord messages.
00:27:36
Speaker
More often, that's him than it is me. And I will say, that sounds interesting to me. Or in the rare case that I'm like, maybe not, doesn't sound interesting to me, but I support you if you want to go work on that with someone else or...
00:27:52
Speaker
By yourself. But if I find something like that interesting from Will or from any collaborators, the immediate first thing that I do is search to see if it's been done before.
00:28:02
Speaker
And if I feel like it's clear, then I will start looking for entries that might fit that theme. My number one tool for theme generation is Adam Aronson's Word Listed. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that.
00:28:16
Speaker
Oh, no, I'm not familiar. I know Adam Aronson's work, but i don't know this resource. He built this website. do You upload your own word lists. You can upload as many or maybe there is a cap. I don't know. I have like eight word lists upload to it.
00:28:31
Speaker
It remembers them. So once you do that, you don't have to do it again. has a bunch of different modes. So you can search for things like bookends, hidden anagrams. There are all these really, really useful modes.
00:28:43
Speaker
And that's the second thing I'll do is go on Wordlisted and so look for things that are in my word lists that will fit this potential theme idea.
00:28:53
Speaker
And if both of those things check out for me, then I'll say, yeah, let's make a puzzle. The theme generation process depends on how far we have to dig or how much we have to narrow it down.
00:29:06
Speaker
Hours, usually, not days. So you've mentioned a few resources already. You talk over Discord, you use Wordlisted for theme sets. Which software do you use to construct?
00:29:19
Speaker
I'll tell a story. okay When I started making crosswords, I had picked up somewhere that crossword compiler was the thing to use. because it has all the bells and whistles and it will make every kind of puzzle you want.
00:29:33
Speaker
And it comes packaged with its own word list and it's $150. So it has to be the best thing out there. And if you're working on a PC, that's what you have to use anyway. This is the advice that's out there that exists. And I'm here to tell you that it's wrong.
00:29:47
Speaker
So I tried Crossword Compiler. I was on it for a few months and I just did not enjoy using it. It had too many bells and whistles. It had too many kinds of puzzles and it had a word list that I wasn't really vibing with.
00:29:59
Speaker
So I did a little bit more research and I found that a lot of people were using Crossfire. And I was like, okay, great. All of the people who make good puzzles that I follow, that I enjoy, they all use Crossfire.
00:30:12
Speaker
So I got Crossfire. And I used that for probably a year. And I made a lot of puzzles in it. I made puzzles that got published. And then Ingrid came on the scene. And I was an immediate convert.
00:30:24
Speaker
I have used it exclusively since then. And there is no better product on the market. One of the things that I love about Ingrid is that It's run by a person who is very involved in listening to what people need.
00:30:39
Speaker
There is a Discord server for it, and he responds to feedback within a day. Ryan's great, and he also understands crosswords really well. So he knows what's practical. like Sometimes people will ask for things that are important to them but may not be practical to a wide audience. So he kind of knows which levers to push to make it the right program for a lot of people.
00:30:59
Speaker
It does feel like a lot of people are making the switch.
Choosing the Right Venues
00:31:02
Speaker
And once you've gone through all the stages of construction, how do you know, yes, this is finished and I'm ready to send it off?
00:31:10
Speaker
I don't think I always know. i think that I'm not the best judge of my own work. And i think that's probably true for most people. You may not be the best judge of your own work. That's another beneficial factor of doing a lot of collaborations is I have somebody gut checking me all the way through it.
00:31:27
Speaker
Will and I are pretty ruthless. on Phil, for example. And again, having an editor who's already invested in it, I know that I'm going to get feedback and I'm going to get a revision request if there's something that they aren't happy with rather than just an outright rejection.
00:31:47
Speaker
So I do see working with editors as more of a collaborative process when you are working with venues who take that process more seriously. If you're not collaborating with someone, are there people you'll ask to test solve or to give you that gut check?
00:32:04
Speaker
I think it depends. You know, used to, yes. When I was first starting out, I would get eyeballs on everything that I did. And I do still, if I'm publishing for a blog. And I think that's really important. I think that constructors that are out there right now making puzzles for their blogs and not getting them test solved are making a mistake.
00:32:24
Speaker
When you put something out into the world that hasn't been tested or solved by someone who's not you, you're doing yourself a disservice. Because having someone say to you, I don't totally understand this clue. Like, I don't understand this reference. And it made this crossing really hard.
00:32:41
Speaker
For the person who wrote the puzzle, maybe that thing didn't appear to be difficult. But putting somebody else's eyes on it makes you see those things in a way that you didn't see before.
00:32:53
Speaker
So for me now, if I'm putting something on my blog, I will, because that's the only person that's standing between me and the solver. And I want the solver to have a good experience.
00:33:04
Speaker
That makes sense. And when you're sending a theme query or a full puzzle, how do you decide which venue to send it to? I usually have that locked in from the beginning. Most of the time, that's just because of the kind of puzzle that it is.
00:33:17
Speaker
If I sent a theme query to Universal versus USA Today, there are different types of themes that you'll see in those kinds of crosswords. Any aspiring constructors who are listening to this, the best thing that you can do is solve crosswords from the outlets that you want to submit to so that you can make that decision wisely.
00:33:40
Speaker
You will solve the universal crossword every day. You'll see the kinds of themes that they're interested in publishing. You don't get that benefit as much at the New York Times because the breadth of what they publish is so much larger.
00:33:55
Speaker
So that's what I do, right? I solve every single puzzle. So I'm very familiar with the ins and outs of what each publication is looking for. So from the jump, I've already decided, well, this has three long themers and easier type of word play. I'm sending this to the USA Today.
00:34:16
Speaker
This one has maybe four themers and a revealer or a title that explains the wordplay that's happening. I love titled crosswords.
00:34:28
Speaker
Those get sent to the universal crossword. There's more theme material. The theme is a little bit trickier. It has a revealer in the grid. A lot of the things I put into the universal bucket also apply at the Los Angeles Times.
00:34:42
Speaker
So I've already made that decision from the beginning. Absolutely. Pay close attention to those specs and make sure you really adhere to them closely. oh gosh. Read your instructions for sure. Obsessively read the instructions. Right before you hit submit, read them again and make sure that you haven't done anything that they're not asking for.
00:35:02
Speaker
Since we're talking about venues, this seems like a good opportunity to talk about some of your other roles. One of the projects you're involved in is coordinating science-themed puzzles for science news.
Science-Themed Crosswords
00:35:15
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit about that? I am so excited about these crosswords. Right now when we're recording this, it's July, which means about half of them have come out and about half of them are still to come out in this year. We had an agreement to make six puzzles in 2025. They are running a monthly puzzle.
00:35:33
Speaker
Every other month, it's a crossword. And every other month, it's some sort of logic game or numbers puzzle or something else that's not a crossword. So my agreement is to produce six crossword puzzles for them.
00:35:45
Speaker
ah Because I don't do anything in crosswords alone, I immediately pulled in some friends for help. Sid Shivakumar and Will Nettiger have been editing those puzzles and we have had some excellent constructors help us. You can go to the website there and solve all the crosswords that have been published.
00:36:04
Speaker
It's been fantastic. I love every single one of these crosswords. There are very few venues for this kind of puzzle, the heavily science themed. All the revealers have been some phrase or concept from somewhere in the sciences. And it's unique. And I'm just so excited to have the opportunity.
00:36:23
Speaker
We don't know yet if we're going to be extended into the future. But if we get additional space for more puzzles in the future, I'm just as excited for more people to join the team and keep making great science puzzles.
00:36:36
Speaker
If you like the science puzzles that we've made, please let the folks at Science News Magazine know so that we can make more of them. That's great feedback. People have the opportunity to help keep this going if there's strong support from the community.
00:36:50
Speaker
So if you're solving and enjoying them, definitely get in touch, let them know. And hopefully we can keep that going. It's been so great. The revealer that I used in that first puzzle is something that I've had in my pocket since I started making crosswords. Wow.
00:37:06
Speaker
never really anything that I tried to make for anywhere else because I just knew it wouldn't find ah home in any of the mainstream publications. That puzzle, it's there. It's free. You don't need a subscription to the magazine. You can just go on the website and solve them.
00:37:21
Speaker
And you finally have an outlet for all of your rock and mineral interests. I'm now thinking that if I have the chance to make puzzles next year for them, that there will be a geology theme right up front.
00:37:34
Speaker
There you go. And you've also been an editor, constructor, and mentor for Little AVCX, which according to the website features boundary-pushing bite-sized puzzles.
00:37:45
Speaker
What was it like mentoring up-and-coming constructors for Little AVCX?
Mentoring New Constructors
00:37:50
Speaker
I was on the inaugural Little AVCX roster in 2022. In 2023, I took that year to publish a whole bunch of puzzles elsewhere. And then I came back to the team in 2024 I did a little bit of editing and I did some mentoring last year. This year, i have no official role, but we have a community Discord server that is really active.
00:38:12
Speaker
And this year's mentees all have access to everyone who was on the team last year as well. So there's a wealth of experience and knowledge that the mentees on the Lil' AVCX roster get.
00:38:25
Speaker
We do a lot of things there, like collaborating on puzzles. Some of my upcoming collaborations are with little AVCX team members. We do a lot of workshopping. We have sessions where we spitball theme ideas and anybody in the community can come, whether they have an official role right now or not.
00:38:43
Speaker
So my personal mission is to expose the new constructors to as much as possible as exists in the crossword community.
00:38:54
Speaker
That can be making and solving puzzles. have to develop a solving habit, whatever that looks like for you and what works in your life. Crossword tournaments is a big one. Getting them to physically show up at crossword tournaments and introduce them to editors and potential collaborators and solvers and really get them involved in the community. That's my favorite thing.
00:39:18
Speaker
I love Lil ABCX so much because it's where I got my start. And I really feel like everything that I've been able to contribute there is just as a result of me trying to pay that forward.
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's fantastic. And another project you're involved with, again, I do not know how you have the time, but very cool. It is teaching a class called Creating Crossword Puzzles at St. Louis Community College. I would love to hear more about that.
Teaching Crossword Creation
00:39:45
Speaker
so this is part of their continuing education programs. It's usually older adults, people with college degrees already who aren't doing this for credit. They're just doing it for fun.
00:39:56
Speaker
They... have an hour and a half with me and that's it. So in an hour and a half, I presented in part seminar style where i provide examples of crosswords that I've made and crosswords that I've solved and the things that make crosswords interesting and part workshop styles.
00:40:12
Speaker
I give them graph paper and we do it old style where you have an 11 by 11 grid and a pencil. And I lead them through the process. By the time they leave, they have a piece of paper with a crossword that they made. And it's so satisfying because these people are interested in crosswords, but have never made one.
00:40:34
Speaker
I'm sure they really appreciate that. And one more activity, again, I don't know how you do it, but one other activity I wanted to bring up is your work as the co-director of the Midwest Crossword Tournament.
Directing Crossword Tournaments
00:40:47
Speaker
How did that come about? I do this the same way I do anything else in Crosswords, which is with help. And this event would not be anywhere near as successful without the constant work of my co-director, Sally Holscher.
00:41:03
Speaker
Sally and i have known each other for a long time, but we hadn't really worked together that much. I had filled in for her blog a couple of times. And just on a random road trip through the Midwest, I had sent her a message.
00:41:14
Speaker
We had coffee and we got to talking about crossword tournaments. And BossWords has been around a long time. And Lollapozoola has been around a long time. And I love crossword tournaments, but they're all across the country. They're all, at the time, they were all on the East Coast.
00:41:30
Speaker
I said to Sally, i wish somebody would have a crossword tournament in the Midwest. And Sally said, you know, me too. And i think it was at that moment that I realized, I think it has to be us.
00:41:42
Speaker
A lot of people look at each other and say, i wish somebody would, but all it takes is somebody being the person who's willing. Neither of us has ever run a crossword tournament before, but we both have a lot of experience in crosswords of course but also project management and again this is a kind of relationship where she and I complement each other's strengths it's been ah joy it has been a blast and i love so much bringing the crossword tournament to the Midwest all of our constructors and editors for both year one and year two have been Midwestern either in or
00:42:20
Speaker
bringing or by work. And almost all of our solvers are Midwestern. A lot of the people that we had in attendance in year one, it was their first time at any crossword tournament.
00:42:30
Speaker
So that's super exciting to bring a whole bunch of new people into the environment. Of course, we had some veterans and some champions who traveled from afar to attend, but to be able to bring the crossword tournament home to people who can just come without having to travel across the country. has been such a joy to me. And to present puzzles with heavy Midwest content has been such a joy to me. So yes, we're doing it again in October.
00:42:57
Speaker
yes it's in Chicago. It's on the first Saturday in October. You can register at MidwestGridFest.com. Please come. We would love to have everyone there. and You can also solve online if you can't make it to Chicago, right?
00:43:10
Speaker
There will be an online division as well. Yeah. I should look into that as someone who spent two years in the Midwest. I feel like I'm tangentially qualified. Now I wanted to turn to the subject of favorites and start by asking you, what's your favorite part of the construction process?
The Joy of Grid-Making
00:43:28
Speaker
I love making grids. Each grid and each corner of each grid feels like its own little challenge to conquer. And depending on what I'm making, who I'm making it for, the goal may be different, but I just love the process of getting in there and ruthlessly searching through hundreds of words to find the exact combination of things that I want to present, that I want the opportunity to share what I've learned with other people.
00:43:57
Speaker
That for me is what making a crossword is about. I love the use of the word ruthlessly to describe the process. but do you have some favorite puzzles among the ones you've made?
00:44:08
Speaker
This is a really hard question, and I've been thinking about it for weeks. If you didn't have that many puzzles, it wouldn't be smart. It's your own fault. It's like choosing between your favorite children, right I only have one child, so that's an easy question, but I have hundreds of crossword puzzles. And I think you were to break that down for me, I would have different answers for things like Do you have a favorite themed puzzle? do you have a favorite hard puzzle? do you have a favorite MIDI puzzle?
00:44:34
Speaker
I have so many favorites. There is a puzzle on my blog. i And maybe that's a weird answer, right? Because i didn't get paid for it. In fact, it got rejected at least twice. But it's a puzzle that I wrote with Will.
00:44:47
Speaker
It's called They're the Same Picture. Maybe it's my favorite because it's the puzzle that I worked on probably the longest. It's probably one of my favorite crosswords because the theme is so unique.
00:44:58
Speaker
It's really one-of-a-kind individual sort of puzzle. This is part of why it didn't find a home elsewhere. It's asymmetrical by one block. And at the time that we wrote this puzzle, options for asymmetrical puzzles were very limited.
00:45:15
Speaker
But sometimes our favorite stuff is the stuff that nobody else is really interested in. We do love our weird, misunderstood babies. And then for Clues, you were co-nominated for 2023 Orca Award.
00:45:29
Speaker
for the clue, expression of love that just doesn't land, with the answer being air kiss. So I'm curious, what are some of your favorite clues you've written? The orcas are such a strange thing that there's this whole process and committee behind nominating crosswords for awards of the year.
00:45:50
Speaker
And I'm on that committee. In this particular case, I actually wrote that clue, and I'm just glad that someone somewhere picked up on it as something interesting. So thank you to whoever nominated that. I don't even know who it was.
00:46:04
Speaker
In a recent puzzle, I wrote the clue, kicked out of the fucking party. Okay, wait, don't tell me. Sexiled. That's correct. Good job. Yes! I've redeemed myself from Sid's episode where I couldn't get a single one.
00:46:20
Speaker
That's really good. That is a good clue. Thank you. Thanks very much. And then what are some of your favorite types of crosswords to solve? Like I said, I solve everything and I do that partly out of obsession, but partly also because I'm constantly training for tournaments. And something we haven't really talked about is I'm trying to be competitive at crossword tournaments. I'm sort of at 20th percent line.
00:46:46
Speaker
I did win the E division at the ACPT, which means in my second year, which means that I went to my first ACPT and completely tanked. which is what you have to do to qualify for the E division in the first place.
00:46:59
Speaker
So came back the second year, won the E division. And in the span of that year, i did something like 2,500 crossword puzzles. wow I have kept up the habit since then, not quite at that extreme level, but in this past year, i crossed to the 10,000 solve threshold, which is about how many, some people say you have to solve 10,000 crosswords to see the most improvement.
00:47:25
Speaker
So I solve all the puzzles. So I feel like I'm really qualified to answer this question. Okay. I like themed puzzles. I like themeless puzzles. I really like hard puzzles.
00:47:36
Speaker
My favorite crosswords of the week often come from somewhere in the AVCX umbrella or the New Yorker. i think the New Yorker is the most consistent thing.
00:47:49
Speaker
in putting out high quality, themeless crosswords for the three days of the week that they do. And for the ABCX crosswords, that's the place where you never really know what you're going to get.
00:48:01
Speaker
I'll throw in a third mention here. The Sunday Puzzle by Evan Bernholz in the Washington Post is the most consistently good sunday sized crossword that's available.
00:48:13
Speaker
Every week he nails it. And if you're looking for a good sunday crossword every week, that's the best place to go. i co-sign all of these suggestions. You have good taste.
00:48:24
Speaker
And who are some constructors whose work you especially enjoy? We talked a little bit a while ago about I'll go and put in a potential theme concept and see that someone has already done it easily half the time.
00:48:36
Speaker
That person is Rebecca Goldstein. She is somebody that I have had the amazing pleasure to work with a handful of times. I'm constantly blown away by her skills in theme development, grid filling and cluing. She's somebody who can do it all.
00:48:52
Speaker
I solve her puzzles as soon as I see that they're available. And then the list of everyone in second place is like 30 people long. So I'm not going to go through all of them. But I'm so, so, so grateful that we have such a breadth and depth of talent in the crossword community that there are so many people whose puzzles I look forward to solving immediately, just immediately.
00:49:15
Speaker
And then since you solve so many puzzles, this might be tough, but are there any puzzles from other constructors that jump to mind as standouts or favorites to you?
00:49:26
Speaker
You're right, because I've solved 10,000 crosswords, but it's impossible to find some, any that are favorites. But I will say that the tournament crosswords that I've experienced in the three or four years that I've been going to crossword tournaments,
00:49:40
Speaker
Fosswards, Lollapazula, now Westward. The people behind the teams that are making these crosswords are so creative and devoted to making the tournament experience as good as it can possibly be.
00:49:55
Speaker
I could go through all of the tournament puzzles from the last two years and pull out a dozen favorites. I think Blast Westwards, every single one of those crosswords, every single one was just a complete hit as a whole, like across the entire landscape of crossword puzzles. The tournament puzzles have been some of my favorite.
00:50:14
Speaker
That's encouraging to hear. I've done one Lollapazula online and one ACPT American Crossword Puzzle Tournament in person. That's been the extent of my tournament experience because I've learned I don't like speed solving.
00:50:28
Speaker
I just want to hang out and enjoy the community and not stress because being competitive about something I love makes it too stressful for me. May I recommend volunteering?
00:50:40
Speaker
All of the tournaments need volunteers. They need paper runners. They need graders. That's a really nice way to get involved in a tournament without having the pressure of having to speed solve it.
00:50:52
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. I would do that, actually. Yeah. You've already talked a bit about this, but just wanted to pick your brain a little bit more. What venues do you think would be the best places for a new constructor to dip their toes?
00:51:06
Speaker
Universal is the number one, and there's a few reasons for that. The most important one is that you will get thorough, usable feedback quickly. Obviously, a lot of people set out to submit to the New York Times and publish in the New York Times, and I'm all for that. If that's your goal, great, I'm all for that.
00:51:24
Speaker
But if you go straight for that goal without getting any feedback from anyone else, You're lying completely blind. And the New York Times is not known for providing feedback that is either thorough or quick.
00:51:40
Speaker
And that's totally in there, right? And it makes a lot of sense. They get 200 puzzles a week. They can't provide thorough, quick feedback to everyone. And again, because the process is broken down, you just have to present an idea and they like it or not.
Advice for New Constructors
00:51:53
Speaker
And you move on from there. The feedback that I have received from working with the Universal Crossword and and a few others who follow some of that same pattern has been monumentally helpful.
00:52:04
Speaker
If I was submitting to the New York Times exclusively and just getting rejection after rejection with almost no useful feedback, I would be so demoralized.
00:52:14
Speaker
And I would think that there was something wrong with me and my work. You know, I wish I'd heard this when I was starting out because I only submitted to the Times. I didn't even consider any other venues, honestly.
00:52:26
Speaker
i think it took 16 submissions before my first one got accepted. And I didn't get demoralized just because I was so oblivious to the whole process. And I figured that was the only option.
00:52:38
Speaker
But yeah, people who are getting started should definitely follow your lead and not mine. And then do you have any crossword goals for the future? What is there left to do? My personal goals change a lot. For a long time, it was just, I just want to have fun.
00:52:54
Speaker
Year two, i was like, yeah, I think I can get published. Year three was make as many crosswords as humanly possible. Year four last year, i was trying to teach and help and mentor other people as much as I can.
00:53:08
Speaker
This year, I don't really know. There was a point at which I wanted to just increase the number of places that I have published. so I have done that this year in Science News and I published in Slate.
00:53:21
Speaker
But largely my goal is to just keep getting better, keep making more puzzles, keep working with more people and trying to find the places where what I can contribute fits with what someone else is looking for. Yeah, I like
Evolving Crossword Conventions
00:53:38
Speaker
that.
00:53:38
Speaker
And then last question, is there anything you hope to see change or emerge in the world of Crosswords in the future? There have been several waves of change.
00:53:50
Speaker
There's been a wave of publish more women. There's been a wave of publish more people of color. And there was a wave of indie blog explosion puzzles. Right now, we're starting to see an evolution in what is considered a legitimate crossword puzzle, especially in terms of conventions around things like symmetry.
00:54:13
Speaker
There are a lot of outlets that for a while, like USA Today has been symmetry ambivalent for years. Universal has just gone to a mode where they're open to non-symmetrical theme sets and non-symmetrical grids.
00:54:29
Speaker
If we ask ourselves why has symmetry been important, I think a lot of people would find it difficult to come up with a real answer that's anything more than just tradition Opening the door to thinking about what a crossword can be that's different from how it has always been will allow more people who are interested in making puzzles that they consider art for themselves.
00:54:55
Speaker
I'm really intrigued by the idea that some prominent individuals and outlets in the community can redefine what a crossword can be.
00:55:07
Speaker
Yeah, I've thought a lot about it from the vantage of challenging what's acceptable fill, but i haven't really thought about it as much in terms of the grid itself. So that is interesting. Viscerally, I'm like, oof, please don't make it asymmetrical.
00:55:21
Speaker
But I don't really have a good reason besides OCD. But now it's kind of challenging me. I think that is an interesting point that you're making. It it really is just about tradition. When you shed the requirement for symmetry,
00:55:36
Speaker
You open yourself up to the potential of theme ideas that can only be asymmetrical. You have only three options for your really kick-ass theme, but it's a 13 and a 14 and a 15.
00:55:52
Speaker
And there's no way to make that symmetrical in a puzzle. So you just have to throw it away until a venue comes along and says, yeah, sure. Why not? Yeah, this is the time to get weird with it. Let's see what happens. Exactly. Let's get weird. Yeah.
00:56:09
Speaker
So with that, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners? I just want to thank everybody for tuning in. This has been a pleasure. thank you so much. Thanks to you as well.
00:56:20
Speaker
I like to learn something from every participant and I've definitely learned some things today. So I appreciate that. So my name is Daniel Grimberg here with my special guest, Shannon Rapp. Thanks so much to Shannon for joining me today. And thanks so much to all of you for listening to episode number five.
00:56:37
Speaker
Hit me up with any feedback or ideas you might have at the crosstalkpod at gmail.com and join me again next time for another constructor conversation coming your way soon.
00:56:48
Speaker
Until then, wishing you inspired constructing and happy solving.