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Episode 1: Rafael Musa
129 Plays28 days ago
In the debut episode of Crosstalk, host Daniel Grinberg chats with crossword constructor Rafael Musa to explore the intricate, exciting world of crossword construction.
Find out which puzzle he's proudest of constructing, which crossword software he recently switched to and why, and what advice he would give to first-time creators.
Transcript
Introduction to 'Crosstalk' and Guest Rafael Musa
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, puzzle people. My name is Daniel Grinberg and you're listening to the very first episode of Crosstalk, the Crossword Construction Podcast. In this show, I'll be talking to other crossword constructors to learn more about how they work and what inspires them. Whether you're a current constructor, an aspiring one, or a fellow word nerd who wants to find out how a puzzle gets made, this show will be a forum to share insights and learn from each other.
00:00:38
Speaker
To celebrate the launch of Crosstalk, I'm joined by none other than Rafael Musa, one of my favorite constructors of late. Rafael is based in San Francisco and works as a software engineer. He's had 14 crosswords published in the New York Times in the last three years so far. And notably, it's been eight Fridays, two Saturdays, and four Sundays.
Rafael Musa's Journey into Crossword Construction
00:01:01
Speaker
Rafa, thanks for taking the time to speak with me today and give us a clue about how you work. Hi, I'm very happy to be here. Happy to have you here. I wanted to start out by going back to the beginning and talking about origin stories. So what originally led you to begin constructing?
00:01:20
Speaker
I have a solving origin story, which is toward the end of college. I was browsing social media and I saw that this friend, or acquaintance really, posted this screenshot of him solving a Friday New York Times puzzle. I think it was in like eight minutes or something. And he was like, oh, I'm so proud of myself. like This is amazing. And I had never really done a crossword and I was kind bored.
00:01:44
Speaker
And I was like, okay, like I can probably do this. Like this seems fine. So then I went in to try to figure out what do I do? Eventually found the app, went to that specific puzzle and tried to solve it and really struggled because it was my first puzzle. It was a Friday, like that wasn't the right way to get into it. But that was a goal that kept me coming back. And so I learned that the Mondays were easiest. I started to do the Mondays and then eventually I worked my way up and I remember.
00:02:13
Speaker
When I got to solve a Friday in that eight minute time, years later, I was like, ha, I did it. um And then from like the solving to construction transition, it was just a natural development. I tend to be really interested in how things are made and want to explore that. So yeah, I started to ask, do people make this? How does this work?
00:02:39
Speaker
Back in the day when Twitter was less accessible, yes, when it was kind of like less charged, I kind of was lurking on there and there were a bunch of people who would talk about crosswords and I was like, oh, these words seem cool. Like I want to be one of them. And that's when I decided to try. It's pretty impressive you went from struggling to finish a Friday to hitting that goal to then making your own Fridays. So altogether, how long have you been constructing?
First Attempts and Early Learning in Crossword Construction
00:03:05
Speaker
I think I started to the kind of dabble in 2020 with the pandemic, as many people did. But then I started to do it more in earnest in 2021. So it's been like three to four years now.
00:03:23
Speaker
If I'm hearing you correctly, you started dabbling and then you were getting published pretty soon thereafter, it sounds like. I mean, yes. I guess like, I mean, I think these things are relative, right? But it took ah about like a year of dabbling until I got a puzzle published. And there were certainly many rejections and submissions and et cetera along the way. But yeah, I mean, it it took about a year. So I guess to some that's a long time to others that might be really fast.
00:03:51
Speaker
I'm just relieved to hear you didn't get accepted on your very first submission because I have heard stories like that. Oh, I have as well. Every time someone will like write crossword notes or whatever, it'd be like, Oh, this will be first ever crossword. I'll be like, Oh God, like, this is not relatable. I'm like so happy for you, but completely unrelated.
00:04:09
Speaker
Right. And do you remember what the first crossword you tried to make was? I think the first puzzle I tried to make, which I didn't even submit anywhere because it just it wasn't there, was this theme, which, we you know, is very simple. I think it was it was something like five theme entries and they pop something upper, something middle, something lower, something bottom, something. So it was like, you know, like top dollar, like upper hand, like middle ground or whatever. And they were kind of arranged in that order in the grid. and I was like, I'm so clever. This is amazing.
00:04:38
Speaker
I'm so smart. This is incredible. And it wasn't, in fact, incredible. It was, it was just okay. And the film was terrible. And I had an unchecked square that I didn't notice until like the very end. And I was like, I guess like this is staying here. Oops. So yeah, it was a mess, but I think that was the first one.
00:04:57
Speaker
In a way, I kind of enjoy that three month wait to hear back because you can kind of live in the delusion that you've just invented the perfect crossword and no one's ever thought of this before. Oh yeah, that's so true. I find myself going through waves during the three months where, you know, when I'm submitting to the Times, I'll go and look back at a submission a couple of weeks in.
00:05:19
Speaker
and be like oh why did he even send this in like this is terrible like this is awful and then i'll go back in a few like a month later and be like wait like no no no like this is actually good like this has potential like this was good work um so i'll kind of go through all the phases and by the time you hear back like i've already kind of like gone through every possible cycle of what could happen I've just kind of given up trying to guess what they're going to say because I've had puzzles where I was like, this is 100% going to get accepted. Like there's no way they're going to say no. And then I've had others that I've been lukewarm about at first, and then they got accepted. And then I was like, okay, yeah, no, this is good. But yeah, I've i've learned to not anticipate because I pretty much always get it wrong. I can't really guess what is going to actually break through. yeah But yeah, I totally hear you on the stages of delusion, the stages of anticipation.
00:06:09
Speaker
So since you started in 2021, what are some of the lessons that you've learned along the way to improve?
Improving Puzzle Quality: Lessons and Techniques
00:06:17
Speaker
That's a good question. And I hesitate to even say it because it feels kind of cliche, right? But I'm going to say it anyways. I think one important lesson is if you're kind of like not happy with a particular fill or a particular theme entry or whatever, you should change it. But I think in the beginning,
00:06:35
Speaker
you're so excited that it even works at all that you're like, oh my God, like this work, like it it filled at all or like I was able to find a thing that kind of works. This is amazing. Like I need to see this through. And it's very easy to kind of like not take the step back and be like, wait, is this actually good? Like, do I actually like this, right? Or am I just kind of allowing the excitement to cloud things that I really don't love about this particular piece of this puzzle?
00:07:02
Speaker
And I think with the experience, I learned to do that a lot more and to like allow myself to be excited about whatever thing like, oh my God, this piece of feels so wonderful or whatever. Allow myself to live that emotion, but then take a step back and and think like, wait, does this actually work? Is this actually good or am I just excited? And I think that has made my work a lot better.
00:07:27
Speaker
Definitely. There's a writing tip that I often remind myself, which is kill your darlings. This idea that you shouldn't get so infatuated with your characters that you're not willing to put them into terrible situations or even kill them off. And I think the same is true for crosswords. You have to be willing to take a step back and look at the bigger picture and say, even though I love this entry, it's just causing a lot of bad fill to come in along with it. So for the sake of the larger puzzle, I have to cut its throat and say back to the drawing board and start again. Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:02
Speaker
So let's talk a little bit about process because I am curious about how you work and what kinds of steps you take because everyone has a little bit of a different process. Is there a typical process that you follow when you're working on a puzzle?
00:08:18
Speaker
i think the unsatisfying answer here is not really. It tends to kind of just be vibes every time. I i mean I do in general do a lot more theme-less stuff and for those I don't even usually use a seed answer like sometimes I will but like more often than not I won't have like a particular seed or a particular like grid design even in mind I'll just open the software and play around and something might stick or something might not but it's very much a fluid let's kind of poke around and see what's working and what isn't working so
00:09:00
Speaker
You know, in a way, I find that fun because it's like every crossword that I'm working on is comes about in a different way. And there isn't like a very set set of steps to kind of follow, but but it can also be intimidating because there isn't an easy way to start because it's just like, oh, I'm feeling in the mood, like let's kind of poke around.
00:09:18
Speaker
That does make sense. To hone in on one particular stage, maybe you could tell us, let's say you're about to start a new theme list. What would be your process for getting started and creating the grid?
00:09:33
Speaker
Yeah, I'll set up a good skeleton that feels fun, quote unquote, and that's obviously subjective and hard to define. I tend to these days prefer things that feel new and different that I haven't seen before that I don't see often. and It doesn't mean that it has to be like of mind bending like whoa kind of design but early in my journey i found myself repeating grid patterns a lot because i would become familiar with a particular design and and then have a better sense of how to go about filling it or like oh look this is areas really constrained like let me start here and then move on on there
00:10:10
Speaker
But now that I'm more experienced, I enjoy the challenge of of tackling a brand kind of new geometry every time. I think there are a few heuristics in terms of I don't want too much short fill. And, you know, I want to make sure that there's enough long stuff that I can kind of fill with juicy entries there. But I don't really have any rules in turn. Like some people are like, Oh, I only have like this many threes. or this many fours or whatever and it's more just kind of again vibes and to be more specific in terms of the gridding I think the early stage I like I try to start with something that's really strong and exciting because at the beginning you have the fewest constraints and you can do whatever and sometimes at the end when you're trying to finish a theme list
00:10:53
Speaker
there's a lot of constraints you might have to have a compromise or two here or there and so what I've learned is that if you start out with compromises already like you're in for a world of sadness because then you're gonna have to add more compromises later it's gonna be a mess so I always try to start with a corner or a particular section that I think is like bulletproof and wonderful and lovely and I'm very excited about and then if eventually in order to make it work with the rest of the grid I have to like do one or two things I'm not thrilled about, then it's going to be okay and I can live with that. You mentioned that you typically don't use seed entries. So would you then start by building that skeleton and then just choosing one of the longer sections and generating seed entries from there?
00:11:42
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I'll be looking through the fill recommendations and then I'll be like, Oh, this is really good. I really like this. And then like, kind of that becomes my seed entry, right? So then I'll be like, Oh, this is good. Like I'm going to try to make this work and then I'll put it in and try to make it work.
00:11:58
Speaker
But if it doesn't, then sometimes in a different slot, I'll find something else that's like, oh, wow, wait, this is really good. So then that becomes my seed entry. And then I'll try to make that work. And then I'll keep going until eventually something works. So yeah, like that whatever gets spat out to me as a suggestion becomes the de facto seed because I'm wanting to make it work. And then I keep cycling through them until something sticks.
00:12:20
Speaker
Yeah, one of the things that I like to do when I'm doing a theme list is trying to figure out what seed entry or what first entry the constructor used. And sometimes you can tell pretty easily. And sometimes it's a little harder. And I'm curious if maybe you could give us an example of one that was a first entry for you. I had a recent puzzle in the Times with Sarah Sinclair that had Olivia Rodrigo down the middle, and that was certainly something that we set out to do. And that was one where the whole raison d'etre of the puzzle was, we want to put Olivia Rodrigo in a puzzle. oh Let's make it happen. And
00:13:01
Speaker
Once you've got your grid filled in, what is then your process for cluing? Cluing is my less favorite aspect of the whole thing. I think maybe because I'm like less good at it, I don't really have a process. I tend to just drop in over like a couple of weeks and add a few clues here and there. I don't tend to really go in order. I'll just go randomly. I'm better at writing easier clues which there's still it's still it can be tricky to find like fresh easy angles for common fill i think i'm better at that though sometimes i'll just look up idioms with like words that are related to the word i want to clue for some sort of trickier wordplay like weekend appropriate angle for something but it's something that i'm still learning how to do well
00:13:54
Speaker
Which you know is good to feel like you're still kind of learning I think like the group I mean obviously I'm learning in every aspect still but I find myself being stronger at gritting than I am including It's interesting you say you prefer writing easier clues, but we've never seen a Monday Tuesday or Wednesday from you, you know I've tried I yeah, I mean I have a lot of trouble I guess coming up with easy but still exciting and novel themes. I have published a lot in other outlets like USA Today and Apple News and Universal that have both themed and theme-less puzzles that generally have easier clues and so I've had a lot of experience writing easier clues for those venues and I found that process to be ah really fun and and I found myself to be a bit better at that.
00:14:50
Speaker
Oh nice, I should definitely seek those out. And then what tools or software do you use to construct?
The Role of Software in Modern Crossword Construction
00:14:57
Speaker
I'm a recent Ingrid convert. I used to be Crossfire, a Crossfire guy through and through. And then maybe six months ago, I kind of became an Ingrid convert, which to those who maybe aren't familiar is a somewhat new software on the block type thing that I was skeptical of because I was set in my ways and I feel familiar with the interface with with Crossfire.
00:15:21
Speaker
But I've been really enjoying um using Ingrid. It's really fast and it has a bunch of fun little features where you can reject or accept entries for specific slots or you can set minimum word scores for specific slots. And there's a dark mode, which is a game changer because like I'm just staring at that screen for a long time. And so it's good for the eyes to have a dark mode. So yeah, I'm, I'm fully on Ingrid now.
00:15:48
Speaker
I think you might've just converted me. I did not know about being able to reject for a particular slot. I've always wanted that feature. Incredible. Took a little bit of getting used to with, just because it's a new interface and I had like years of kind of just muscle memory of, you know, doing stuff on crossfire. And like, I just had my process, right? And I knew where the buttons were and what to do. And it's always, at least for me, like if it's jarring to just have to go to a new interface. And even though everything is the same, it's like just slightly not the same.
00:16:17
Speaker
It was the dark mode that really sold me. Like once the dark mode was out, I was like, oh no, this is it. Yeah, I have dark mode for everything. I can't work without it. So I hear you on that. And then I was looking back on some of your puzzles and you had a Sunday from 2023 called About Two Feet that you did with Rebecca Goldstein. And Rebecca mentions that you are a coding wizard and that you kind of rescued the theme because you ran some code to generate a word list. Could you tell us a little bit about how that works?
00:16:49
Speaker
She's being very kind with her words there. But yeah, so that puzzle had um a theme where there were different shoes in the grid and they occupied multiple squares. And so that makes it tricky because the down answers that go through said shoes have to then, that letter is doubled because the shoe occupies like more than one square. And so if you tried to fill a grid like that,
00:17:15
Speaker
Normally, it's not going to really work because you the number of letters in the down is going to be off. one like The across occupies two squares and the down occupies one square. So when she approached me with that idea, i and I know other people had done this before and I wasn't really sure how they had made it work, but I sat with it and thought about it and and then basically wrote some code to modify the word list we were using.
00:17:43
Speaker
Sounds like a way that your professional life shapes or influences your crossword life, bringing in those software skills that you have. I know you said that there's no one size fits all, but if there is an average, how long would you say it takes you to make a Sunday?
00:18:04
Speaker
god it's again it's so hard to answer and that's a question that i think a lot of people lay people like you know friends who aren't really into making puzzles i was like oh my god how long does it take you to make one and it's like always hard to answer like i don't know i think for like a sunday it can take anywhere from like five hours if you're like really being fast to like More than 40 because you know that like Sundays can be tricky and even for a seamless I've had New York Times seamless puzzles come together in like an hour Where everything just kind of worked was just like a lucky day But I've also struggled and wrestled with them for months sometime on and off
00:18:47
Speaker
trying something and not having it work and then letting it sleep and coming back. So the variance for me at least is is really high. I've had puzzles come together for the times in maybe two, three hours all in with the cluing, which is like really lightning fast for me. But I've also had ones where I've probably spent over 20, 30, 40 hours total with all the iterations and the cluing and the going back and forth. Yeah, really the variance is quite high.
00:19:14
Speaker
And you never know going into it, you might think, oh, this is this is gonna be a slam dunk right away. And then just something will not come together. And then other times I thought like, this this is gonna be a struggle and it actually worked out magically. So it's often hard to predict. No, absolutely. Yeah, like be like, oh, I'm gonna attempt this specific grid design that's gonna be a pain and it's go I'm gonna be stuck on this for months and this is gonna take over my life. And then it's like, it wasn't that bad.
00:19:43
Speaker
Sometimes I'm almost disappointed if something comes together too easily. I'm like, oh, I kind of wanted to struggle with this a little bit. I know it almost makes you feel like, wait, is there's no way this is even good. Like sometimes I get into this pattern where I'll fill something once and be like like, oh, like this is kind of good. But then be like, there's no way this is the best one because it was the first one that I came across. So obviously like this can't be the final product. I have to struggle for hours and then I'll spend hours Looking through and struggling and trying different things only to be to realize the first one was the best one Well, that is a perfect segue to my next question, which is how do you know when a puzzle is ready to be submitted?
00:20:23
Speaker
ah yeah oh It's hard I try to always at least kind of sleep on a grid before I go into the cluing and Because sometimes, you know, you look at things in a different light and you're just like, this is not it. And even the the opposite, there have been puzzles so that I decided this isn't good enough. I'm not going to submit this.
00:20:46
Speaker
And then I looked back at it like a few days later and was like, wait, no, I think this is actually good enough. And I've i've sent them in and have them accept it and have them run. And so sleeping on it is like a really important thing for me. But yeah, outside of that, I don't know. It just, there's just a certain, like a je ne sais quoi of like, this feels like we're there. And then when you're working on a theme puzzle, how do you tend to come up with the themes?
00:21:12
Speaker
I really, these days especially, don't really do themed puzzles because I struggle so much with coming up with the themes. So yeah, I've been pretty exclusively doing, you know, I've had a few Sundays in the Times, but I think five, but they've all been, not all, like one of them was solo and that theme I came up with myself, which was the Pride one. And I'm very proud of that one.
00:21:37
Speaker
But every other Sunday collab that I've had, it was the other person did the heavy lifting with the theme and I'd help brainstorm and narrow it down or whatever. And that's great. But that kind of inspiration or idea tends to knock be mine. And then I am better at the great idea. Let's kind of do the execution and do the gridding and figure out maybe suggest a couple of theme entries or direct it in a way that better. I'm just, yeah, I'm just not your guy for themes.
00:22:06
Speaker
Yeah, you have your niche. You're that you're the king of theme lists. I mean, that's pretty great too. So you mentioned before that you submit to other publications. Could you talk a little bit about your experience with some of those other publications and how it might be different from submitting to The
The Dynamics of Submissions and Collaborations
00:22:23
Speaker
Times?
00:22:23
Speaker
Yeah, I submit pretty widely. I kind of mentioned I'd like to work a lot with Universal and Apple news has a somewhat recent crossword. I guess it's been like a year and a bit now. And yeah, USA Today. And then there's some more kind of indie venues in ABCX and like that of umbrella.
00:22:40
Speaker
And there's the idiosyncrasies of every different publication and every different editor. But yeah, I think it's fun to work with different editors and and and publications that have slightly different audiences and things that they look for. In particular, it's lag with the times can be, you know, a bit frustrating when you're making something and then you have to wait three months to hear back on it. And then you have to wait another year to have it published. You know, it can be like a year, year and a half long process from when you're making something to when you're seeing it published. And I understand that there's constraints there and that's fine, but it's a lot of fun to work with other publications where you can make something and have it published in, you know, three or four months. That immediacy feels really exciting because I get to sometimes put things that are kind of more current in the puzzle that I'm not concerned that it's going to be an issue in like a year and a half. It's like, I don't know like what's going to happen. Right.
00:23:37
Speaker
In general, too, a lot of these other publications will give you more feedback on submission. So especially if you're a newer constructor who doesn't have a lot of experience and wants to get some more feedback, the Times will sometimes do that. And that's wonderful, but their volume of submissions is really high and it's hard for them to give individual feedback to everyone.
00:23:59
Speaker
But some of these other publications, Universal in particular, tends to be very thorough with giving some explanation or reasons for like, oh, we really loved these things or these things we wish were different, better, or whatever. And that can be super valuable for someone who is learning the ropes. If someone had a first crossword that they wanted to submit somewhere, do you have any recommendations of what publication they might want to start out with?
00:24:26
Speaker
I think a universal is a really good first place because they are a very fast with their responses. And they also tend to give you some more constructive and thoughtful feedback about like, this is a really fun theme, but this particular theme Class is slightly overdone or this particular entry doesn't really feel like it works and kind of shortening that feedback cycle is especially when you're starting out and I think it's really important. You can iterate so much faster and get better a lot faster. That is fantastic advice. I wanted to turn to the subject of collaboration. As you mentioned, you've done a lot of collaborations.
00:25:08
Speaker
10 out of your 14 puzzles in the time so far have been collaborations. And I happen to know that there's at least one more coming out or maybe might already be out by the time that this podcast comes out because we have an upcoming collaboration on the docket. So could you tell me a little bit about how your process changes when you're collaborating with someone else?
00:25:29
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think the collaborative process is really fun because you get to kind of get a window into someone else's preferences. And, you know, you get to kind of make a friend, which is fun. And you get to chat with someone new that you maybe otherwise wouldn't engage with. And that's always exciting for me. But I think it's also fun to learn about things that they care about and like their sensibilities and of course sometimes there can be some kind of friction there right because not everyone is going to have the same preferences and sensibilities as you and it can be a little bit tricky to navigate that and then have each person kind of explain like oh I think you know this thing is better for this reason or I really don't like this for that reason but it generally tends to make a way better final product when that happens in particular I notice that when I'm
00:26:17
Speaker
Working on a collab and I'm, you know, say like filling my half of the theme was great. I feel like I have to like do the other person bright, right? Like, like if it's just for me, then I can like accept some things that are iffy and be like, ah, it's fine.
00:26:32
Speaker
I don't want to present something bad to this collaborator. they're They're relying on me to like do something really good. And so it helps me be set an even higher bar for quality because I want my collaborator to get excited and to be thrilled by kind of the end result. And so I find myself working even harder to get something that is really good and that I'm really excited about because there's someone else along for the journey and you get to kind of share the celebration with someone and that multiplies the joy. Absolutely. I love how you put that multiply the joy. And then how do you connect with the people that you end up collaborating with?
00:27:15
Speaker
There's a variety of ways. I think back in the day, as I mentioned, in this Twitter heyday, like that was a big way to do that. And there were a lot of people that I DMed with on Twitter, and and that was kind of like the origin story of The friendship or whatever that then eventually maybe led to a collab. There are you, for example, like we've met at acpt in briefly, and then we've chatted and then that kind of led to us working on a collab. And so that is also fun to go to in-person events and meet people and and to chat.
00:27:50
Speaker
And just to catch some people up, you're referring here to the American crossword puzzle tournament that's held in Stanford, Connecticut at the beginning of April every year. Yeah. And I think now I'm kind of like more lucky to have had enough publications and.
00:28:06
Speaker
have some amount of name recognition. I hesitate to say that because it sounds silly, but people somewhat know who I am slightly. And so now I find that people will you know reach out to me and be like, hey, like I really like your work. Would you mind like kind of test solving something for me? Or like would you want to like work on something together or whatever? and like that makes it really easy because it's like, I don't have to do anything anymore. Like people just come to me and I'm like, okay, amazing. Right? Like, it's like, I feel like I front loaded all the work and now where, you know, more people reach out and then I publish more and then more people reach out and then it's great. Definitely. And I feel like it attracts people who have similar sensibilities. If they're responding well to the kinds of crosswords you make, then they're probably also approaching things in analogous ways. And then what have you learned from collaborating with other constructors?
00:28:56
Speaker
I definitely learned to sometimes let go. As I was saying, sometimes you're working on a collaboration and you kind of hit an impasse where one person thinks one thing A is better, right? And the other person thinks B is better. And probably usually like they're not that different and like they're probably both like fine and both good enough. But I've been in that situation a handful of times.
00:29:18
Speaker
And that's a hard thing. and I mean, again, like this is something that happens in life, right? All the time in work, in your personal life, like this is the bread and butter of the human experience, right? I think two different people have different opinions. Like that's the most normal human thing ever. So it's not like that's the my first time encountering that. But I think engaging in that, in this very kind of specific niche world, right? Has taught me to be more flexible and more understanding of other people's needs, but also learning to advocate for my own, working to get the best final product in a way that's still respectful and collaborative. And I don't think I have the answers to that, right? But I can think back to some situations where there was a particular entry that I was really not into because I was just like, Oh, this entry is really gluey. Like I don't like it. I really think we should avoid it. And the other person was like, no, I think it's not that bad. Like, and it's really unlocking a lot of good stuff for us. And
00:30:14
Speaker
I was like, you know, okay, fine. I'm not happy about it, but sure, let's do it. But then, and then later, you know, when I look back at the puzzle, I'm like, you know, they were right. It is an icky entry, right? It's like, I, it's like kind of Louie and I don't love it, but I think overall it made the puzzle better to just relax that constraint and allow that entry to happen. So I think that interpersonal negotiation of different constraints and different preferences is something that I've learned. And also it's kind of like a life skill. So that's good.
00:30:40
Speaker
Again, in my personal life and in at work and just in general, when people are arguing, I'm like, it's fine. I've argued with people over crosswords so I can do anything. Well, I'm also imagining when you say arguing, it's probably the most diplomatic, nice, friendly exchange. Right, obviously, like to be clear, it's not like we're kind of, you know, yeah, it's not like we're kind of... being like Yes, it's all very civilized and very polite and very kind.
00:31:07
Speaker
And then are there any dream collaborators that you'd like to work with and you'd like to put out there in the ether? o Yeah. There's some people that I really kind of admire that I would love to work with. One of whom is Did.
00:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, I really, really love all his work. Yeah, I think we have pretty similar sensibilities when it comes to Phil and just grids and vibes in general. So he would be really fun to work with. And I mean, maybe I should just ask. I don't know. I feel intimidated, but did if you're listening, hit me up. Let's do something together. There you go.
00:31:43
Speaker
But yeah, so the I guess like he is he comes to mind. I think everyone is very rightly excited about the Robin theme-laces and I think there's also this added allure that she doesn't kind of collab, at least in terms of her New York Times puzzles. I think they're all just solo, which is fine, obviously. But but I think this is like added kind of like allure of like, oh wow, like she never collabs with anyone.
00:32:07
Speaker
You know, what's the secret? Could I get in there or you know what I mean? Like, so that's also someone else who kind of comes to mind. I love how we kind of can just use first names because these are people that are well-established, but just for people who might not be aware, you're referring to Sid Sivakumar and Robin Weintraub.
The Zen of Crossword Construction and Notable Works
00:32:27
Speaker
But yeah, those are are definitely some big names that I could definitely see being dream collaborators.
00:32:33
Speaker
And then I wanted to talk to you a bit about favorites. And I think some of these you've already touched on, but just to circle back, what would you say is your favorite part of constructing?
00:32:44
Speaker
Yeah, definitely the gridding for me. I find that almost therapeutic and I really, really enjoy the gridding process. It kind of helps me clear my mind. And of course, sometimes it can be frustrating when you're like almost there and like something is almost working, but you're not quite, it can doesn't quite work. And it's like, oh if only like this one word existed or whatever, right? And that can be annoying. But I think in general,
00:33:09
Speaker
I find it a very kind of zen activity to do and I'll after work, when i'm if I'm stressed or if whatever else is stressful about life, I tend to get in the zone with the gridding and that is kind of my my favorite part. And then do you have a favorite puzzle or some favorite puzzles among those you've made? My guess is the Pride Flag one.
00:33:34
Speaker
Yeah, that one is really special and i do I do like that one a lot. I think that would probably be my favorite. I have some upcoming theme-laces in the times that I um really do love and I'm excited to see soon or soon asterisk. But I do think the Pride one has a special place in my heart.
00:33:53
Speaker
I'm excited to see those upcoming theme lists from you. And then what are some of your favorite clues that you've written or some of the favorite entries you've been able to include? Favorite clues. Yeah, the clue in this tends to be less memorable. For some reason, this one clue comes to mind, which isn't even, I think like that good. It was in, it was like a very early puzzle of mine. It was my three-way Sunday collab with Adam Wagner and Mike Lieberman, who are both wonderful friends and also excellent crossword constructor people. and But anyways, in that kind of three-way Sunday collab, I remember writing the clue that the entry was tetra, which is like not a very good entry. And so I think when you can rescue like of an iffy entry, like it's particularly good.
00:34:44
Speaker
Anyways, the entry was tetra. And my my clue was try one more time, question mark, but like, T-R-I dash, like try, like prefix, try. That's pretty good. One more time. And I just thought that was so clever. Thank you. I was like, that's the, this is my peak. Like this is the best thing I've ever done is my try one more time, a clue for tetra. And I still, and it's been like over a year, or like two years now, but like when you ask, that's still the first thing that came to mind. So I guess that's the one. And then entries.
00:35:13
Speaker
God, I don't know. The Olivier Rodrigo one was really fun, and I'm really good excited that we made that happen. For the one that we have forthcoming, I, for some reason...
00:35:24
Speaker
I've always loved Top Chef and I've wanted to always include Top Chef in a crossword and it's never appeared in the Times. So I scored Top Chef way above all of my other entries, just hoping to have that like magically pop up. I was able to include it in the one we have coming up and we would be debuting it. So I am excited. Hopefully no one scoops us in the next few weeks, but Yeah I was about to say it's always like with the times in particular because you have to wait so long you never know like if someone's gonna come and scoop but yeah yeah there's some good stuff there. And then what are some of your favorite types of crosswords to solve and what kinds of publishers are you typically solving?
00:36:06
Speaker
I tend to prefer making and solving theme-less puzzles. I think it's really fun to like uncover a piece of fill that's really fresh and cool and tend to value that experience more than the experience of cracking a clever theme even though I have a lot of respect for that as well and obviously when it comes to a themed puzzle there's too many constraints that to allow you to kind of really include a lot of this exciting fresh vocabulary and I tend to find sometimes that when it comes to themed puzzles there's there are too many sacrifices made in terms of the fill and so you end up with
00:36:40
Speaker
things that are obscure or kind of gunky or or just a lot of really familiar stuff that because I'm a seasoned solver and constructor I've kind of seen these clues and these angles a bunch of times like it's hard to get excited about them whereas with the theme list there tends to always be at least a handful of entries that you don't really see ever and that experience still has a draw for me and still feels fresh and exciting Yeah, so I tend to prefer theme-less puzzles. ah There's too much out there to solve, which is always really hard. I wish I had more time to solve, but I tend to solve everything theme-less that exists. So, I mean, I'll do the times every day. That's kind of baked into my routine. And then I'll do the Apple puzzle every day as well.
00:37:28
Speaker
and then I'll do Universal but only the theme-less and then I do LA Times but only the theme-less so only the Saturday and then I'll do the New Yorker kind of sometimes I'm not super consistent with that but sometimes when I'm kind of craving some more theme-less content I'll just go into the New Yorker and do a few AVCX puzzles I'll also do most of um I'll do the the plus which is the theme-less one pretty consistently yeah yeah and then the other is I'll kind of do most of if I have the time How do you still have hours left in your day? No, such a good question. Are there hours you're not solving crosswords? No, like that's actually an amazing question. I honestly have no idea. um That's a really, really, really good question because yeah, sometimes it feels like a full time job, but like, you know, in a good way, I'm choosing to use my free time to do this because like, this is what I want to do with my free time because this is what I enjoy. And so that kind of makes it a lot easier.
00:38:25
Speaker
And then who are some of the constructors whose work you especially enjoy solving? I mentioned Sid and Robin briefly before, and so I think their stuff comes to mind. But honestly, this might be sort of like a nepotism situation, but I think a lot of my really close friends and people in the Bay Area, of people that I kind of tend to see and in person more because we live close to each other.
00:38:47
Speaker
I really like their stuff, so people like Adam Wagner, who is a very close friend of mine, and he's more of a theme-type person, but you know, i he is very good. And then Rebecca also, who I collaborate with pretty frequently, is also wonderful, and I admire her work tremendously. Kate Chin Park, who also lives in the Bay Area and works as an editor for The New Yorker, says she's just like an amazing clue writer in particular. I mean, her grids are wonderful too, but like some of her clues are just completely other different level. So I always look forward to her byline because it's just always going to be a delight. I really enjoy Mike Lieberman's work as well. And basically, I'm just listening to all my best friends. but i yeah So all those people who are all my best friends and whose work I also think is amazing.
00:39:39
Speaker
So if we want to get on your radar, we should move to the Bay Area and befriend you, it sounds like. Yes. We are very welcoming and, you know, the weather tends to be nice and there's, yeah, there's pretty good contingent of crossword people out here. And so, you know, we hang out sometimes. If you're looking for a fertile crossword landscape, I do recommend the Bay Area.
Memorable Puzzles and Advice for Aspiring Constructors
00:40:03
Speaker
And then what are some of the puzzles from others that stand out to you as particularly memorable or favorites? I know there must be a lot. Yeah, so there's one that I think about almost every day and I don't even remember.
00:40:20
Speaker
what the theme was. I just know that there was like, it was like, it was a Sunday and it was a Michael Lieberman Sunday and there was some play on Guardians of the Galaxy and like, it was like a central 21 that was like, unguarded Eons of the Galaxy and ah the clue was something like, you know, two famous Eons being like, you know, be prepared or whatever and it was just like so funny and like wacky and the best possible way and that specific theme answer I like still think about, unguarded Eons of the Galaxy So that one is very memorable for me. There's also, I'm so sorry Adam to do this, but I have to. One of Adam's puzzle, it was like a haiku that, and the theme was like, it was, oh, this haiku is too long to fit in this puzzle or something. And then the last square was a rebus because the haiku had one too many syllables or something.
00:41:12
Speaker
And like I really hated that puzzle, and I like still make fun of him but like years later about how much I despise the Haiku puzzle. And it's obviously all in good fun, and again, we're close friends, and it's fine. And again, Adam, I'm so sorry to put you on blast, but like the world needs to know.
00:41:30
Speaker
how much the haiku puzzle is not the vibe. So there's that. But pretty much everything else Adam has ever done I think is amazing. um Like his Fibonacci puzzle. I guess I'm just I'm going through my best friends and intent telling you all the stuff that do they do that I like. I like Rebecca had a really good like she had a really good theme list that ran I think this year that had like creepy crawlies and committed a bit and that was really lovely. Kate had has had some wonderful tricky apple puzzles like apple runs a hard theme list on Saturdays and she's had some really really lovely ones on there so yeah those are things that come to mind. And then are there any clues that stand out to you either as favorites or maybe some that you memorably hate?
00:42:20
Speaker
of Yeah, I don't think so. I can't really think of any clues. What I'm taking away from this is that you love theme lists and you hate clues. I mean, you know, ah you're not wrong. So that's like not an incorrect takeaway. You got to have your brand and yours is pretty clearly defined. yeah Absolutely. You have to absolutely have your brand.
00:42:46
Speaker
And then if you were giving advice to aspiring constructors or people just starting out, what advice would you give them? Yeah. So, I mean, I think I mentioned briefly before about submitting to other publications that give you more feedback and faster too. I think that's good and I would recommend that.
00:43:08
Speaker
Reaching out to people is scary, but almost always people respond really positively and are very excited to have someone new reach out to them. So often people, if there's someone whose work you admire or you just want to chitchat or whatever, you can find them on the internet.
00:43:29
Speaker
The internet is very powerful and you can find them and you can try to message them in a friendly, non-creepy way. And like in general, people respond positively to that. There's the somewhat active crossword Discord that is getting a lot more traction in the post-Twitter era. I've had mixed experiences with the Discord. I think there's a lot of people who are very loudly saying things that are wrong and like as someone who is new it's difficult to discern who the people who are loudly wrong are versus the people who are not wrong. I think it takes a little bit of know-how to kind of know how to navigate that discord but it's still a really good resource. Well it is called discord which kind of gives you a hint at the strife that might await there. You're right.
00:44:14
Speaker
But yeah, I think that's kind of my advice and just keep doing it, I guess, which again, sounds silly, but make your little puzzles and they're going to be bad and that's okay. Make your bad little puzzles. Give them to your friends and family. Sit there while they solve them. It's kind of a canon event. You have to do it. We've all been there. You have to go through those hoops. Absolutely. And I'm just going to add one piece of advice that made me think of, which is.
00:44:39
Speaker
solve as many crosswords as you can too. As you're making them, oh yeah the more you solve, the more you'll see what is possible, the more you'll kind of see the standard of what's out there. It really helps a lot. It just expands your parameters. And then do you have any crossword goals for the future? Anything on your bucket list?
00:44:58
Speaker
Maybe. I've been very fortunate, lucky. I mean, it was hard work though, right? But like, I think i I accomplished so much more than I ever thought I would in this realm, which is so lovely. Looking at the future, part of me wants to try my hand at a Sunday-sized theme list for The Times to see what that would feel like. And it's not something that I've really ever tried to do in earnest. And it sounds like it would be hard, but I'm at a place where like I have enough experience where I might enjoy tackling that as a new frontier. Otherwise, I you know just want to kind of keep at it and continue to meet people and go to the events. and
00:45:43
Speaker
Yeah, like it's been a very fulfilling part of my life in the last several years and I just want to maintain it in a way that is like sustainable. My main goal more personally is to make sure that I continue to engage in this in a way that is joyful and sustainable and that doesn't feel like I'm sacrificing other parts of my life or my wellbeing or it's becoming stressful or competitive or whatever. So finding ways to continue to keep it good vibes. Definitely. So it sounds like in 2025, we're going to look out for a Sunday theme list from you. And then 2026, we're going to look out for a super mega theme list from you.
00:46:26
Speaker
Yeah, I guess that's the trajectory. So stay tuned, Puzzle Mania fans. Stay tuned. All right. That is everything that I had for you today. Is there anything else you'd like to add or share with our listeners? No, not really. This was a ton of fun. Yeah. Thank you for hosting me. What an honor to be the first guest. I hope you fellow listeners enjoyed our time together and you can hopefully look forward to my byline in the next several months, years, hopefully.
00:46:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's always it's always a treat to see your byline. I know that there's going to be a good puzzle ahead. So with that being said, my name is Daniel Grinberg, and I was joined today by my special guest, Rafael Moussa. A big thank you to Rafa for joining me today. And thanks so much to all of you as well for listening to this debut episode.
00:47:17
Speaker
Feel free to hit me up with any feedback or ideas you might have at the crosstalkpod at gmail dot.com. And join me again next time for another constructor conversation coming your way. Until then, wishing you inspired constructing and happy solving.