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Episode 6: Aimee Lucido
341 Plays13 days ago
Daniel talks to renowned author and constructor Aimee Lucido about her new crossword-themed book, the risks and rewards of getting in the comments, our least favorite fill ever, how trivia can make a puzzle sparkle, the pleasures of etymology, failing the breakfast test, the clues she’s still thinking about years later, and much, much more.
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Transcript
Introduction to Crosstalk with Amy Lucido
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello, puzzle people. My name is Daniel g Grinberg, and you're listening to episode number six of Crosstalk, the crossword construction podcast. In this show, I'll be talking to other crossword constructors to learn more about how they work and what inspires them.
00:00:27
Speaker
Whether you're a current constructor, an aspiring one, or fellow word nerd who wants to find out how a puzzle gets made, this show will be a forum to share insights and learn from each other.
00:00:38
Speaker
For the sixth episode of Crosstalk, I'm joined by none other than Amy Lucido. Amy is a children's author based in Irvington, New York. To date, she's published 19 crosswords in the New York Times and over 50 in the New Yorker, as well as other venues like Scientific American, ABCX, and the Crosswords with Friends app.
00:00:59
Speaker
Amy, thanks so much for joining me today and giving us a clue about how you work. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Thank you for being here.
Amy's Journey into Crossword Construction
00:01:09
Speaker
So to kick things off, I'm going to ask you the question that I ask everyone, which is what originally led you to begin solving crosswords?
00:01:18
Speaker
So I have a very vivid memory of solving the Sunday crossword with my grandpa, who was a pen solver, which is not something I ever think about today in the digital age, but at the time that mattered, he was a pen solver. And I remember being surprised at the fact that I could get some answers.
00:01:39
Speaker
Let's say I was eight, nine or 10, like I was little, but I remember in my head, these puzzles were so hard. My grandpa did them, but every so often I would know an answer and that always felt really good. So as I got older, every so often I would happen upon the Sunday New York times puzzle in the magazine And I would solve it myself. And I remember if I couldn't solve an answer, i would read it out loud to my mom.
00:02:02
Speaker
And sometimes i would know stuff that she didn't know. And that was really exciting too. And then I abandoned it for years. And I didn't touch it again until high school when we had a physics class where our teacher didn't teach us. i don't
00:02:18
Speaker
I don't know what this class was in hindsight, but I remember doing a lot of crossword puzzles with my friends in that class. It was never intentional. It was never serious. It was just like a thing to do. And it wasn't until college that I kind of got more into it, both from a solver and a constructor perspective. And I feel like those kind of happen simultaneously.
00:02:38
Speaker
Okay, so you get to college, you start to get a little more serious about it. What was that initial spark that led you to begin constructing? So I went to Brown University during the time that there were a whole bunch of crossword puzzle people, Natan Last, Jonah Kagan, Zoe Wheeler, Joey Weisbrot. But for some reason, there was a glut of people who all had a connection to the New York Times crossword puzzle in some way, whether they had interned for Will Shorts or whether they had constructed a puzzle for the New York Times. And it was just a total coincidence that 30% of all the teens associated with the New York Times crossword puzzle were at Brown at this moment.
00:03:16
Speaker
I was not one of them, but I was friends with them. And so I went to the Brown Puzzle Club meetings just because I liked puzzles. But there were so many people that were there were like, you know, we should do a week of Brown University puzzles where every day that week, the New York Times publishes a puzzle by a different Brown student.
00:03:32
Speaker
And because we had enough people with connections there, they agreed to do that. And I was ah little hangers on wannabe who was like, me too, me too. so And so I presented a theme concept for the Monday to my friends there. And they said, this is good.
00:03:48
Speaker
I'll teach you how to make it a puzzle. So during the time when I was supposed studying for my philosophy final, Jonah Kagan, who was also in the same philosophy class, he and instead taught me how to make crossword puzzles. And I never looked back.
00:04:00
Speaker
Have you learned physics and philosophy since then? Yeah. I still don't really know physics. My dad was a physics major in college, and I feel like I'm pretty math brained, but physics just never clicked for me. And maybe it was because I was busy solving crossword puzzles during physics class.
Feedback and Resilience in Puzzle Making
00:04:17
Speaker
And what was cool about your first puzzle, if I'm not mistaken, is that it was also brown themed, right? Yeah, this was a simpler time when this was an up to snuff theme concept.
00:04:28
Speaker
But the theme was brown and the word brown was in the center and brown could come before the first words of four answers that I put in the grid. So if I remember correctly, it was like Betty Boop. So brown Betty.
00:04:41
Speaker
Sugar Daddy was one of them. i remember that one. So brown sugar, brown nose, and then nose dived. And that was a big deal because people took offense at the fact that brown nose was a scatological thing.
00:04:54
Speaker
Even though that wasn't like in the puzzle explicitly, people still didn't like that. How did you find that out? I think I've had it out from the blogs. and don't think the blogs themselves had an issue, but I feel like there were comments. I read every single comment. I still read a lot of the comments when I have a puzzle published, but we went on to the Rex Parker blog and Diary of a Crossword Fiend.
00:05:15
Speaker
In the Wordplay blog um and the comment section, there were vivid discussions about whether implying brown nose was passing the breakfast test. Well, we just in the New York Times saw the debut of OnlyFans.
00:05:28
Speaker
So I feel like we've moved past that. been going long way. Yeah.
00:05:34
Speaker
It's interesting that you mentioned the comments because I actually purposely don't read the comments. Not that I don't appreciate constructive criticism, but there's always some segment that will just be so negative and say something unhelpful like, what a boring slog, I hated it.
00:05:53
Speaker
And that just kills the vibes for me, even if it's a small percentage. What's been your perspective on getting in the comments? So I totally feel that.
00:06:04
Speaker
I think I might be a little bit of an outlier in this sense because I also read every single one of my book reviews. And the conventional wisdom is do not go into Goodreads as an author.
00:06:14
Speaker
There be dragons. Just don't don't look at the comments ever. don't think it'd be fair to say it never bothers me. But I'd say more often than not, either I disagree with them and I find it just kind of funny or I agree with them and I'm like, yeah, you know what? You're right. I probably could have done that better.
00:06:31
Speaker
The fact that there are positive comments is so validating for me. And the negatives, I'll screenshot them and I'll send them to friends like, look at how funny this negative comment is. It just gets me when the comment feels malicious or superficial, like it barely even engages with the puzzle.
00:06:49
Speaker
And unfortunately, those are the ones I tend to remember. Absolutely. More people are in your camp than mine. But I produce so much content, whether it's crossword puzzles or books or trivia or whatever.
00:07:00
Speaker
And at some point, it stops becoming about your personal identity. And it's about the work that's on the page. yeah And it all has to be fodder for some kind of creativity machine in the long run.
00:07:13
Speaker
The positive comments have to fuel you. And the negative comments that are useful critiques, even if they're not presented necessarily in the best way, i learned something from them.
00:07:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's exactly how it needs to be. I think if the trick is just learning how to do that. Yeah.
Creative Process and Deadlines
00:07:31
Speaker
Just doing it over and over again, having a lot of your work critiqued.
00:07:36
Speaker
mean, I've been having my work critiqued now for 15 years in various contexts. It gets easier. Yeah. So i know it's been 15 years, but since we were talking about that brown-themed puzzle that got it all started, could you take us back in time and tell us a little bit about what you remember Yeah, I remember making the puzzle was such a crash course.
00:07:59
Speaker
And in some ways, everything I ever learned about crosswords, I learned for that first puzzle. And that's also not true at all. i remember I really wanted to put, i don't even remember what the word was, like dinosaur.
00:08:10
Speaker
And the corner wasn't working. And just that feeling of, oh, if only I could like rearrange the alphabet. And that feeling has just stuck with me for 15 years. And I think that's probably why it sticks out from that very first time, because that hasn't changed at all, where I still kind of fall in love with entries. And then I'm so mad when I can't make them work.
00:08:29
Speaker
And I remember when the puzzle came out, I felt like a celebrity for the day. The whole campus knew about this. So everyone was solving the puzzle and I was the first one and I was walking around campus and everyone would have their crossword puzzle out.
00:08:43
Speaker
That was just such a cool feeling. When we do work, we don't always get to see the end result. And I think that was one of the few times, even in the last 15 years of making puzzles, where I made the puzzle, I put it out, and then I got to see people react to it, which was pretty special.
00:09:01
Speaker
Yeah, I compare it to it being your birthday because friends will congratulate me. People haven't heard from in years will get in touch and text me and be like, oh, I did your puzzle. It was so much fun.
00:09:13
Speaker
And I was like, oh, it's so nice to hear from you. And then we catch up and it yeah really happens when my crossword comes out. I know, like I'll get messages from old teachers. And I love that. I love that it's a way that I kind of get to reconnect with people from my past.
00:09:27
Speaker
Even on my birthday, I don't get that much attention.
00:09:31
Speaker
So you created this first crossword and it came out during Brown Puzzle Week. And then you also began to construct crosswords for the Brown Daily Herald. How did that experience shape your development?
00:09:43
Speaker
That was the first time that I was under ah deadline to be creative on a regular basis. And I remember that being very daunting where i liked making crosswords and I liked being creative and and having fun in that way.
00:09:58
Speaker
But it had always just been when I had been inspired. And for the first time I think my whole life, I was expected on a regular basis to be creative within the same format on a monthly or bimonthly cadence.
00:10:12
Speaker
And I remember being very scared to do that, but somehow always coming up with the idea that I needed for the month. And I think that that has built confidence in me over the course of my life that I can do creative things on a regular schedule in other contexts.
00:10:29
Speaker
Have you developed any skills you can share about how to handle deadlines? I am the opposite of a procrastinator. I don't like things on my to-do list. And if they are on my to-do list, if I have a free minute, I try to get them off my to-do list.
00:10:43
Speaker
I don't know if this is the healthiest way to do because it means that I'm like always stressed out. I'm always doing something, but it does mean that I'm never late for a deadline. It means that I'm never panicking at the end, but I don't know if that's necessarily advice that I'd recommend because it means that I can also never take a minute to relax.
00:11:00
Speaker
So maybe it's about finding balance, Yeah, if someone has insight on how to find that happy medium, I would love to hear it. I think it might just be having a different personality trait. okay so and in those early days, you were mentored by Andrea Carla Michaels.
Mentorship and Methods
00:11:21
Speaker
What kinds of lessons did you take from that early mentorship? Gosh, I remember her having a really high bar for me in terms of what made a good theme and what made good Phil cause she know she's the queen of Mondays like she knows how to make a clean grid and a really tight theme set and I remember I would send her these early themes I think I had one that was like down in the mouth and I wanted to put theme answers going down that had mouth words like teeth and lips and tongue
00:11:54
Speaker
But that wasn't very interesting. And like the answers that I gave weren't that great. And she told me that. And I think I definitely wasn't in a position where I felt like I needed feedback. But I also didn't necessarily take criticism as a gift.
00:12:11
Speaker
When someone gives me feedback now, I know how to interpret that and how to incorporate that into my work. And so I think I probably rejected some really good bits of advice that had i listened to better, i would have become a better crossword puzzle maker faster.
00:12:28
Speaker
But I would like to believe it was also mutually beneficial because I was definitely trying to push the envelope in terms of younger references and pop culture stuff. She still talks about the fact that I'm the first person to teach her who the flaming lips were.
00:12:41
Speaker
She was like, this isn't a thing. No one's ever heard of it. and i was like, it is a thing. I swear. I love that. And then what are some of the notable ways your process has changed since you were first starting out?
00:12:53
Speaker
I feel like embarrassingly, it hasn't changed as much as it should have. I still use the same software. The dictionary that I customize is still called BDH.txt because BDH was the Brown Daily Herald. wow I would use different words for the BDH puzzles than I would if i was trying to submit something to the New York Times.
00:13:13
Speaker
But that file is now a file I use all the time, but it's still called BDH. That is how stuck in 2012 I am. I'm using the exact same text file.
00:13:24
Speaker
I do use some new dictionaries now. I use Spread the Word List, which is actually a very recent addition to my process within the last like six months.
00:13:34
Speaker
Because before that, I was so afraid to add a new dictionary because I was like, I got my process down. I don't want to mess it up. But I'm glad I messed it up. But beyond that, my process is honestly so similar to what it was.
00:13:46
Speaker
ah use Crossfire. i am constantly removing entries from my dictionary. I'm constantly adding entries to my dictionary. i use OneLook the same way that I did 15 years ago. use Cruciver the same way I did 15 years ago.
00:14:01
Speaker
And that's like it. I feel like I need some suggestions on what modern crossword making looks like because I don't know. Well, it sounds like everyone is migrating to Ingrid. That's I'm hearing.
00:14:12
Speaker
You know, maybe my New Year's resolution 2026 will be to try Ingrid. Yeah, I'd say it's worth a shot. And when you're embarking on a new puzzle, how do you get the process started?
Constructing for Different Publications
00:14:25
Speaker
So it really depends on what kind of puzzle I'm making. Let me start with Scientific American because those, I have a very specific process with those and that's just kind of baked into the formula of the puzzle. So every month they send me the cover story and they want a theme for the puzzle that ties into the cover story.
00:14:43
Speaker
Sometimes the theme is just very straightforward. They just had their 180th anniversary and they wanted to do something that highlighted famous scientists' that I've published in Scientific American.
00:14:54
Speaker
But sometimes they give me something and it is just so not puzzly that I have to really read the article and really think about other ways into the story. and then I get that approved.
00:15:05
Speaker
And then I try to build a grid around that theme. And the other kind of tricky bit with Scientific American is they have a bunch of stories they want me to incorporate in the grid itself.
00:15:16
Speaker
And then beyond that, I'm trying to just get as much science-y fill into the puzzles. With the New York Times, it's obviously much more freeform because I can do whatever I want. I only want to send a puzzle to the new York Times if I feel like it's firing on all cylinders from top to bottom, the theme, the fill.
00:15:33
Speaker
And so if I could have a theme idea that I really feel like is top-notch, and that I think will fly in the New York Times, then i will usually spend a week more just trying to finalize a theme set.
00:15:47
Speaker
And then i obviously grid it and clue it. The New Yorker, because those are themeless, that's even more free form. And I swear sometimes i will spend like a week straight on a New Yorker puzzle, just fiddling. I'll start with the seed word, and then I'll realize there was another word that actually like way more. And so I'll dump my seed word and switch to this new word.
00:16:08
Speaker
And then in the act of trying to fill that new word, there's a new word that I like even more. And so it ends with just being this really improvised process. And so sometimes I have to rein it in And what I'll do in those instances is I'll find a recent Friday or Saturday New York Times puzzle, and I'll copy the grid over just the black squares. And then I'll move a couple black squares in a way that will jive more with what I make in puzzles.
00:16:35
Speaker
But that way, at least have a structure. So you mentioned seed entries. Can you talk a little bit about those first steps of getting a theme list going? Yeah, you know, I often find the blank grid at the start of a theme list overwhelming.
00:16:50
Speaker
And so I do have a couple grid shapes that I fall back on. Because if I start to see words that could go in a grid, then I start to feel creative. But I do sometimes comb through my dictionary.
00:17:01
Speaker
and I try to find words that I've recently added that I was particularly excited about. And I just build a grid around that. And it's not like those have to be in the grid. I mean, sometimes they stay in the grid, sometimes they don't.
00:17:11
Speaker
At the very least, it's just... an anchor to get my software to start showing me things that get me excited. Sometimes I'll go on Twitter or like Facebook or TikTok and I'll just see what's trending and it'll be like, oh K-pop Demon Hunters is trending.
00:17:28
Speaker
Cool. Do I want to put Huntrix in a puzzle? Do I want to put Golden in a puzzle or Soda Pop? Yeah. And when it's a theme puzzle, how do you determine if the theme's worth pursuing?
00:17:40
Speaker
I tend to work reveal first and that reveal phrase itself has to be an interesting phrase that I would put in a crossword, even if it wasn't a reveal phrase.
00:17:51
Speaker
And then it has to have a very evocative, both surface sense and crossword s sense. I not too long ago published an ABCX with Ella Dershowitz that was take it or leave it.
00:18:04
Speaker
And the phrase take it or leave it is just like a great phrase in and of itself. But I really liked how it, to me, it suggested where you have it in rebus squares throughout the grid and the across and down clues work, whether it is in the grid or not in the grid. Like exed versus exited can both be ways to close out ah window on your computer.
00:18:29
Speaker
or posed versus posited can both be to present like a question. God, we must have spent three months. Three months? We put this puzzle aside so many times.
00:18:40
Speaker
We submitted it to the Times at one point, but a couple of the answers weren't quite working. And then we sat on it for a while. And we brought it back. We're like, we feel like this is so close. And then we ended up sending the concept to Ben at ABCX and saying, like, we feel like something is here, but we kind of need some brainstorming help.
00:18:57
Speaker
And so he brainstormed with us and we got a set that really sung. But it took so long for that to get to a point where every single one of those answers was like a surefire hit. Like it was like all bangers, no skips.
00:19:09
Speaker
I love the idea of all bangers, no skips. I'm definitely stealing that. And once you have a filled grid, what's your cluing process?
Puzzle Creation Techniques
00:19:18
Speaker
Again, it kind of depends on the venue. When I'm cluing for AVCX, I will word vomit for a first draft because AVCX is so voicey.
00:19:28
Speaker
I feel like my voice is most authentic when I'm stream of consciousness describing things. And so the first thing is I go through and I fill in all the clues where I kind of knew what I was doing from the get go.
00:19:43
Speaker
And then I'll leave blanks for the words where I feel like there's probably something really clever I can do if I put my head down and work at it. I feel like my proudest moment is when there's a really common word and i know I can make a punny clue. And I'm like, okay, there's been 500 clues.
00:20:05
Speaker
a lot of them have been question mark clues, which are my favorite. Can I come up with a new one that is really clever that I've not seen before? Yes. When I'm able to do that, it's like nothing makes me happy. It's like the best high.
00:20:20
Speaker
I'm so proud when that happens. I have a list actually in my phone of clue answer pairs that I'm just waiting for the moment where I can use it. I do too. yeah Yeah. Sometimes I just want to put in a seed entry that's not even a good entry just because I have a great clue for it.
00:20:37
Speaker
Yes. And then do you have a particular way that you like to work? Maybe a certain location or a particular time of day? Anything special about your method? So this has changed a lot over the course of my time doing this. But now sort of by necessity, i really only ever have time to work on crossword puzzles when I'm commuting.
00:21:00
Speaker
So I have a it's like an hour and 15 minute commute door to door. But most of that is on the Metro North train. And that's generally pretty quiet and a pretty good place for me to pull my computer out and work.
00:21:12
Speaker
And so every morning I have 45 minutes-ish where I'm on the train, where I do crossword stuff, and then 45 minutes on the way home. And that's just sort of the necessity of my life circumstances right now.
00:21:24
Speaker
That definitely has not always been where I've made crosswords, but that is where I currently make them. Has that changed your approach or your method at all, having to do it in these 45-minute increments? Yeah.
00:21:36
Speaker
I used to get kind of frantic. I would start a puzzle in the morning and I would just crank and crank and crank until either it was done or until I had to give up for the day.
00:21:47
Speaker
And by the time I got to the end, i was getting kind of sloppy and kind of impatient. And then I would have to quit and I come back the next day and end up tearing out half of what I did anyway, because I was getting frustrated.
00:21:58
Speaker
This doesn't let that happen because I don't have longer than 45 minutes. And so I get what I can done and then I'm forced to take a breath and pause and reflect on it. And if I come back and I don't like something, that's only 45 minutes that I don't like as opposed to an entire day's worth of work.
00:22:15
Speaker
So I do think it has some benefits there. It also kind of forces me to get in the zone quickly. i can either be creative in that amount of time or i can stop doing crosswords. And what about when you're collaborating?
00:22:27
Speaker
How does that affect your process? I haven't done a ton of collaborations. My life is very busy and it's hard to coordinate with other people and their busy schedules. The one person I've collaborated with a lot is my friend Ella Dershowitz. And like we genuinely are just friends. like We met outside of the crossword world and she got into crosswords because I pulled her into crosswords. Yeah.
00:22:49
Speaker
But now she's a really prolific and talented constructor, which is very fun. But because we're friends, our process looks a lot like, hey, we haven't hung out in a while. Let's get on a Zoom call and come up with a theme idea.
00:23:00
Speaker
Kind of doubles as us so hanging out and catching up on our lives. I think we could all use our own version of Ella. It is nice. And then how do you know when a puzzle is ready for submission? Yeah.
00:23:13
Speaker
With some of my publications, I'm getting things checked every step of the way. But with something like the New York Times, where I really am submitting it, I will send finished products to people and I'll make sure that I'm not overlooking anything. The very last step of every crossword is I go through the list of words and I make sure every one of those words is something that I'm hopefully proud to have in the puzzle, or at least that I'm willing to attach my name to, because a couple of bad words can spoil a puzzle.
00:23:48
Speaker
I look at the crossword puzzle as a whole so often when I'm building it that I kind of forget to look at it on a word level, because that's how you solve it. You solve it word by word. Yeah. For ah Sunday that I had in the Times, I had to resort to Oso, Spanish bear. I'm still haunted by it.
00:24:07
Speaker
I took Spanish growing up. And so a lot of Spanish words don't feel negative to me. And also like as a solver, when I see like Spanish she bear or Spanish bear, that makes me happy because I know that word and I can put that in so fast.
00:24:23
Speaker
Maybe this is just very individual, but I don't see that as horrible crossword ease. Like if it goes in my puzzles, it's okay. I'm not going to strive to put it in my puzzles, but if it's there and if it facilitates a good corner, I'm not mad at it.
00:24:37
Speaker
I'm still haunted. She-bear, Osa, that will never see the light of day. Osa, I was only willing because I was on draft 25. I was weak.
00:24:48
Speaker
But Osa, that is not on my word list. That is one step too far. She-bear, seriously? How often are we saying that in English?
00:25:01
Speaker
I'm sure I've put SheBear in a puzzle at some point. I've made a lot of puzzles, but it is definitely not a moment I'm proud of. For some reason, Oh Ho doesn't bother me, but Oh So is still, I can't.
00:25:14
Speaker
I guess maybe the J makes it acceptable. Anyway, getting away from SheBears for a minute, I wanted to talk about your writing.
Writing Children's Books and Integrating Crosswords
00:25:21
Speaker
So I mentioned that in addition to being an accomplished author, you're also a children's book author, which is very cool.
00:25:28
Speaker
You've published several middle grade novels like Emmy and the Key of Code and Recipe for Disaster, a chapter book called Lucky Penny, a picture book called Pasta, Pasta, Lots of Pasta, and especially relevant for Crucible Verbalists, you have a new middle grade book that just came out in October.
00:25:48
Speaker
It's called Words Apart, and it features a young constructor named Olive. What inspired you to fuse your crossword interests and your literary interests?
00:25:59
Speaker
I feel like all of my books are like fingerprints of my brain, where I feel like in order to tell how I came up with the idea for Words of Apart, I kind of have to go back to Emmy and the Key of Code, which was my first book.
00:26:12
Speaker
And that book combines computer code. I was a software engineer for many years before I left to focus on puzzles and books. But the idea for that book came because I've been straddling these two worlds. I was...
00:26:26
Speaker
coding computers, I was writing books, I was making puzzles. And they never seemed that different to me, but everyone else saw them as very different. as So i wanted to write a book that kind of treated computer code like poetry, because code is a language, it's it's a way of conveying information the same way that English is.
00:26:44
Speaker
At the same time that I had that idea, i realized that I could do the same thing with other media. And so I wanted to write a book that combined recipes and poetry and another book that combined crosswords and poetry.
00:26:56
Speaker
And I think that's because, you know, if I think about what are the most Amy parts of myself, code is definitely in the mix. Puzzles are definitely in the mix. Words and books and poetry are definitely in the mix. Food is definitely in the mix. Music is in the mix.
00:27:13
Speaker
And so when I'm writing a book, all I can do is pull from those parts of myself. It didn't take long within my writing career to know that I had to at some point write about puzzles.
00:27:30
Speaker
The trick was just how to write about puzzles because I did not want to write puzzle book. I wanted to do it in a way that was much more myself, like true to my experience with crosswords and true to my experience with what I value in the books that I read also. And words apart was that vehicle.
00:27:49
Speaker
First of all, let me just say it's a great book. It really captured the experience of being a brainy, wordy adolescent, which I could relate to. And it was a pleasure to read. Thank you. Thank you for reading it.
00:28:01
Speaker
Yeah, of course. The format particularly stands out for its creativity. And format seems to be a big through line in your work, taking all these disparate media, as you were saying, and playing with them in these unexpected genres. Yeah.
00:28:17
Speaker
In Worlds Apart, you tell the narrative through comic panels and dictionary definitions, some real and some invented, and then word puzzles, including crosswords.
00:28:29
Speaker
How did you land on that mix of storytelling devices? A lot of trial and error. Usually when I write books, I know what the book is going to be the minute I sit down to write it. And obviously there's a lot of ideating to come up with the details, but I kind of know the structure and I know the character and I know beginning, middle and end.
00:28:51
Speaker
With words apart, none of that was there. This book took so long to write. And I only sat down to write it because I had a deadline. And so I knew I wanted to write a book from the perspective of a kid who treats crosswords like poetry.
00:29:03
Speaker
So I had to kind of work backwards and think like, okay, what kind of kid would treat crosswords like poetry? Does she make crosswords? She probably likes words. She probably is kind of nerdy.
00:29:15
Speaker
So Olive is the crossword character and she's very verbal. And I put a sister character in there as like a foil to Olive, a sister who's not very verbal and doesn't really like words very much, prefers pictures.
00:29:26
Speaker
I had her in the book and I sent some pages to a friend because I was struggling and I was like, I need help. And the friend read my pages and she's like, I'm interested in this sister. who What if we get some chapters from her perspective?
00:29:37
Speaker
And I was like, well, if I did that, I'd have to write them in comic. And she's like, well, write it in comic. That cracked the book open. The book that it most reminded me of was A Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer Egan.
00:29:51
Speaker
That's so funny that it reminded you of it because I don't see that, but I'm using that book as a comp for another book. I've been writing this other book for like five years. It's never going to be finished, but I love that book.
00:30:02
Speaker
But thank you. I'm glad. Well, the telling of the story through multiple perspectives, the use of mixed media, like how she uses a PowerPoint deck as the format for one of the kids chapters.
00:30:16
Speaker
Totally. I love that. plus Egan and Amy, you both have very crossword friendly names. And then what are some of the overlaps between writing books and constructing puzzles?
00:30:29
Speaker
In both the case of writing books and making crossword puzzles, both of those almost feel like solving a puzzle in and of themselves, where it feels like there's like a platonic ideal out in the ether of a perfect crossword or like a perfect book.
00:30:46
Speaker
And the puzzle is how can i arrange the letters in the alphabet in order to achieve as close as I can to that asymptotic platonic ideal.
00:30:58
Speaker
And that is the world's hardest puzzle. And I think that's what draws me to both of them. I also think in both cases, I have to think about how the book is gonna be read and how the puzzle is gonna be solved.
00:31:16
Speaker
there are clues that the reader is going to land upon that is going to guide them to a solution. Yeah, that makes sense. And in addition to being an author, one other format you've ventured into recently is trivia.
Trivia Writing and Unique Facts
00:31:32
Speaker
You were the trivia editor for ABCX and you currently write trivia for Pointed, which is Bloomberg's news quiz. How does your trivia work intersect with your crossword writing?
00:31:45
Speaker
I feel like there's a lot of overlap in the crossword world and the trivia world. Even so, I was blissfully ignorant of the trivia world for the first two thirds of my crossword life.
00:31:57
Speaker
I was like honestly pretty terrible trivia. Like if a trivia question came up in a crossword puzzle, I just I wouldn't know when i have to get it from Crosses. It was really only in the pandemic where I started to become fascinated with trivia as a puzzle.
00:32:11
Speaker
So now I definitely find myself drawn to trivia in crosswords, whether I'm writing the trivia in a crossword or solving the trivia in a crossword. It certainly makes solving crosswords easier to know the trivia.
00:32:25
Speaker
it kind of all comes down to the same thing. In every case, you're laying clues to create a certain solving experience. It's just a different format. Can you share a few of your favorite bits of trivia with us?
00:32:39
Speaker
So I just learned that the Bluetooth symbol is actually made runes. runes It's the Futhark runes for the letters H and B or whatever the equivalents are in this language.
00:32:52
Speaker
And that's because Bluetooth is named for the Viking Herald Bluetooth. And I knew it was named for Herald Bluetooth, but I did not know that the Bluetooth symbol was made of the letters H and B in the Futhark runes. So that totally blew my mind.
00:33:07
Speaker
It's currently blowing my mind. That's wild. I've never heard that. Blew my mind. But yes, this is true facts. Okay, another one. I'm going to phrase this one in the form of a question. Oh, no.
00:33:20
Speaker
The medical term sphenopalatine ganglioneuralgia. It's a common occurrence if it's hot summer's day and you're having ah Slurpee or if you're eating ice cream. it's brain freeze. Brain freeze. Yeah, exactly.
00:33:36
Speaker
Sphenopalatine ganglioneuralgia is the medical term for brain freeze. I'm going to rebrand this podcast to be a trivia podcast.
00:33:46
Speaker
Okay. I have one more. i wrote this one also in the form of a question. Which word derives from the term given to the nails by which Jesus was fastened to the cross? It's an eight letter old timey interjection, roughly equivalent to zounds or fiddlesticks.
00:34:03
Speaker
I don't know. I'm stumped. This is a tough one. That's why i saved it for last. It's gadzooks. What? It's the mince form of God's hooks. I never made that connection. I always just thought it was a nonsense word. Wow.
00:34:18
Speaker
I know. Me too. This blew my mind. I really like etymology in particular, which isn't surprising given the crossword thing. And so whenever I learn a crazy etymology like that, it brings me great joy.
00:34:30
Speaker
I also love etymology. My favorite etymology is algebra, but a recent one that I learned is omelet. What's omelet? My friend was like, omelet's a weird word, isn't it? so I was like, okay, well now I need to know what it means. so So it comes from knife blade.
00:34:45
Speaker
And then the association is probably because of the thin flat shape of an omelet. Interesting. i love that. That is so cool. People have been creative with words forever.
00:34:57
Speaker
Yeah, I'm still wrapping my head around Gatsukes. And can you tell us about a piece of trivia you've been able to incorporate into a crossword? Recently in A New Yorker, I put the word aptogram in the grid, which is a word or phrase whose letters can be rearranged to form another word with a similar meaning like moon stare and astronomer, which is a very wordsy trivia thing, but it's still kind of a fun word.
00:35:22
Speaker
Okay, if you see the letter Y with two lines in it, which two currencies can that be? Two currencies. Two currencies. I know it's the yen Yes.
00:35:34
Speaker
Then I'd say the Chinese yuan. Yeah, exactly. i put that in a puzzle recently because it's always fun to be able to come up with a fun trivia way into a really simple word.
00:35:46
Speaker
And then here's another one. Here's looking at you, kid, or you can't handle the truth, famously. How many letters is it? Five letters. Quotes? They're both ad libs.
00:35:57
Speaker
Oh, I didn't know that either. feel like it has made crosswords richer for me to enjoy trivia. Yeah. It makes it fun as a constructor too, because you have to learn all these things and then kind of select the best ones.
00:36:11
Speaker
Exactly. If you have a common word and not that interesting... It is very fun to be able to dig into the trivia archives and come up with an angle that's a fact that people maybe don't know about it.
00:36:22
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I know way more about eels and emus than the average person. Gosh, Oreos. I can name how many flavors of Oreo can I name? A thousand. And then while we're talking about trivia, I was wondering if you could share a piece of trivia about yourself that might surprise someone who just knows you from your crosswords.
00:36:44
Speaker
So I'm from Chicago, not like originally, originally, but I lived there for eight years. I went to the University of Chicago Laboratory School, which is the same school where Obama's kids went.
00:36:54
Speaker
And I was ah junior or senior in high school when they were kindergarten and third grade. And they went to a summer camp at the school where I was a swim teacher.
00:37:05
Speaker
And so I taught Sasha and Malia Obama how to swim. Malia knew how to swim. She was older, but Sasha, I taught how to swim. Wow, that is definitely interesting trivia. I would not have known that about you.
00:37:18
Speaker
Fun fact. Very fun fact. And then circling back to crosswords, you've published 19 in the Times and over 50 in the New Yorker, as I mentioned previously.
Publication Approaches and Solver Interaction
00:37:30
Speaker
So I'm wondering what differences you see between those venues and how your approach might differ when you're constructing for them. One big difference, I think, is that The New Yorker, I'm more excited to put proper names in The New Yorker than I am for The New York Times, partly because if I'm putting a name in there, it's someone who I think is pretty big, but they might not be quite as relevant in a year or something when The New York Times publishes.
00:37:58
Speaker
And I'm also willing to be a little bit more obscure with the names that I put in a New Yorker puzzle. I think the New Yorker more willing to introduce people to new names.
00:38:09
Speaker
Not to say the New York Times doesn't also introduce new people in their puzzles, but i think of it as more of a hallmark of the New Yorker. I think the New Yorker is willing to go one notch more risque sometimes.
00:38:20
Speaker
The breakfast table test, it's like a different breakfast table, I feel like, in the two venues. Yeah. Yeah. One is like country club breakfast table and one is like bottomless mimosas breakfast table.
00:38:33
Speaker
Got it. i love that. And then we touched on this before, but since your work is appearing these pretty high profile publications, I'm wondering if you hear often from solvers and if there have been any kind of memorable responses that you've gotten.
00:38:48
Speaker
I find some of the feedback so funny. I'm just going to read this comment in full because I think it is so hilarious. This was a very good puzzle for a Tuesday.
00:38:59
Speaker
Just enough challenges to make it interesting. I won't even begrudge the author the ultra trivial use of Lipa, whoever in hell that is. And I doubt she'll even be remembered in five years.
00:39:12
Speaker
I won't even carp about the use of cuffs as a verb because the cross clues were all helpful. But combining iPad, Burrata, and IMs in the southwest corner is just lazy and irresponsible.
00:39:27
Speaker
there there is bob First of all, I have never seen a store that uses iPads as replacements for cashiers. The New York Times puzzle is an international puzzle, but Will Short seems to forget that all the time, allowing purely regional knowledge all too often.
00:39:45
Speaker
I've never heard of Burrata in my 60 plus years. Even during the time when I was trying to sample as many cheeses as I could from all over the world.
00:39:56
Speaker
I've certainly never seen it on a menu in any restaurant in the many countries I've traveled. And IM's is so vague and irrelevant that it should never appear in a puzzle. It is simply cop out for a really lazy constructor.
00:40:10
Speaker
I just find this so funny. And I come back to it over and over again because this person seriously just pulled out everything I'm proud of in this puzzle. And it's like, I've heard this Dua Lipa character. What is burrata?
00:40:23
Speaker
Cracks me up. I now feel like maybe I am missing out by not reading the comments. Oh, you're missing out, especially if you publish anything that is even like 2% risque.
00:40:36
Speaker
ah You're going to get some hilarious pearl clutching, and it is just it is a joy. Yeah, that guy is not at the bottomless mimosa table, I can tell you that. No, he is not. Sorry to Dua Lipa if you're listening.
00:40:48
Speaker
She is a big fan of this podcast. Dua, if you're listening to this, we're very sorry. We believe in you. Turning now to the subject of favorites, I wanted to ask you what your favorite part of constructing is.
00:41:00
Speaker
This has really changed over time. Like I feel like there was a time where if I could have just come up with themes and passed the grid and the clues onto someone else, I would have. Now i still enjoy the theme. I feel like that's kind of where the creativity part comes.
00:41:15
Speaker
Recently, I've started to like clues more than ever before. if you'd asked me like five years ago, i would have said grids all the way. Themes are too hard. Once I get to the grid, it's just sort of like I get to put as much fun stuff in a grid as possible.
00:41:28
Speaker
And then the last like year or two, i just got really into coming up with off-the-wall punny clues for stuff. And that has become so fun in a way that it wasn't for me like a decade ago.
00:41:40
Speaker
and so now clues might be my favorite part. Just say clues because I've been praying for someone to say clues. Clues. Six episodes I've been waiting for this moment.
00:41:54
Speaker
And then using the Times Days of the Week difficulty scale. Do you have a favorite day to construct for? If I had to pick, I might say Thursdays because I like the challenge of coming up with a theme that is novel and difficult.
00:42:10
Speaker
It feels a little bit more boundary breaking sometimes to come up with a Thursday theme, but nothing is more satisfying than having like a really tight Monday theme. So maybe Mondays and Thursdays are kind of at a tie.
00:42:22
Speaker
ah like that. And do you have a favorite puzzle or some favorite puzzles that you've made? I am really proud of that take it or leave it puzzle that I did with Ella. And then I had the idea for a buttheads puzzle, which I thought was so funny and so obvious that I couldn't not write it and submit it to the Times.
00:42:41
Speaker
So I am proud of that one because i feel like that also got a lot of really funny complaints where people were like, how dare you talk about butts in crossword puzzle?
00:42:53
Speaker
Something else I really love to do in crosswords is to do a rebus where the word functions in a different way in each direction. So I did a mind the gap puzzle for the New York Times a while ago, where in one direction, it was the letters GAP appearing as like toga party where like the GAP spans those two words.
00:43:14
Speaker
And then the other direction, it was used as a space in between words. And there were no other spaces the the puzzle. So the puzzle was constructed only of one word answers.
00:43:25
Speaker
I'm still so proud of that one. And I don't think anybody noticed the fact that most of the words are single words, unless the word gap is taking the place of a space. But I was very proud of that one.
00:43:37
Speaker
I also wanted to bring up that you debuted the entry brain fart. Yes, I did. Why are you so scatological?
00:43:48
Speaker
i've got brain fart and brown nose and butt heads. Are you just trying to fail the breakfast test? Maybe, you know, I'm so straight laced in the rest of my life. Maybe this is the way that I ah ah get my edge out.
00:44:06
Speaker
And then along those same lines, what are some of the favorite entries that you've been able to include? I put the phrase thought bubble and a puzzle for the New Yorker and the clue was mental image, which I really liked.
00:44:19
Speaker
m You know, every so often i can sneak in ah mini theme that I hope flows naturally in the context of the puzzle. And so this must have been like 2023 or something.
00:44:31
Speaker
I put folklore in evermore and in a New Yorker puzzle. and symmetrical spaces. And I don't think I clued either as the Taylor Swift albums. I like things like that.
00:44:42
Speaker
And I had a Sunday called One for the Books in the New York Times a little bit ago. The theme answer that started it all, the clue was logbook. And the answer was the giving tree.
00:44:55
Speaker
i love that. i was like, i need a whole puzzle around this. Yeah, I really like that puzzle a lot. Thank you.
Favorite Clues and Avoiding Clichés
00:45:01
Speaker
And what are some of your favorite clues that you've written? Full disclosure is I only wrote half of this clue and then it was edited to be even better. Okay. I had a New Yorker clue ring that indicates you're already engaged. And the answer was busy signal.
00:45:17
Speaker
And I was so proud of that. But I'm pretty sure that when I sent that in, the clue that I'd written was, it may indicate you're already engaged. And when my editors there came up with ring that indicates you're already engaged, it was just such a beautiful collaborative moment.
00:45:34
Speaker
Partly, I love this clue because of the collaboration of it. I had something that I was proud of. And then someone came back with an even better version that is so good. that is a great clue.
00:45:46
Speaker
And in a 2021 Times article with Deb Amlin, you said a clue you were really proud of was boob tube, question mark, with the answer being underwire.
00:45:59
Speaker
love that I think I just referenced that in another crossword thing recently. So I'm still thinking about how much I love that clue. Can you touch on what in particular made you really proud of that clue?
00:46:11
Speaker
It's a little bit crass. And it' it's taking slang in one way and changing it to slang in another. But the answer is actually pretty boring. it takes an answer that's like not necessarily all that colorful.
00:46:25
Speaker
I mean, not that Underwire not colorful. Like it's about bras. That's interesting. But it's kind of a boring part of the bra. It's so It combines a bunch of evocative images that all amuse me in different ways.
00:46:41
Speaker
Yeah. I still like this idea that you are reserved in real life and then you just start making crosswords and you try to get as vulgar possible.
00:46:54
Speaker
And then going back to our discussion of Oso and Oho and God forbid Osa, is there any feel that you have strong feelings about either positively or negatively?
00:47:04
Speaker
My pet peeve in crosswords is Roman numerals. I... I hate Roman numerals. If one of the numbers that appears on a clock appears, I'm not going to be angry, but I'm not going to like it And I definitely don't put it in my own puzzles.
00:47:20
Speaker
Anything above that is just, you're fired. I can't. i hate Roman numerals. You're fired. just like a pet peeve. And I don't know where it came from. i just hate it I also hate crossword ease. That's a something. so a rut, a bug, whatever. It's like word preceded by article. And the only clue is like snug as blank in a rug. And it's a bug. And oh it's so not in the language. like an artifact from before computers were helping in crossword puzzles. And so now it has become like a recent mission.
00:47:56
Speaker
to just delete them all from my dictionary, but they are so, they're so pervasive, they're everywhere. They're also fired. They're fired. I've been on a purge with those.
00:48:07
Speaker
On the other hand, any word that gets a bad rep just because it appears a lot in crosswords, I don't know what the animosity is towards Etta and Oreo and Eno. Like Brian Eno, he composed the Windows 95 startup sound.
00:48:23
Speaker
That's cool. So I bear no ill will to phrases or names that are totally in the language just happen to have convenient letters.
00:48:34
Speaker
Yeah. Going back to the Roman numerals, how do you feel about Act 1, 1 being a Roman numeral? I hate it. i i don't think I have cut them from my dictionary, but i think about it all the time.
00:48:51
Speaker
You're not fired, but you're getting a stern warning from HR. Yeah, I'm giving you like a yellow slip. And then for listeners who are just getting started, what advice would you give to an aspiring constructor?
Advice for Aspiring Constructors
00:49:04
Speaker
I think the best thing you can do is to solve a lot of puzzles and to solve puzzles from a lot of different venues and to solve puzzles in a lot of different format. If you think you want to be a crossword constructor, don't just solve crossword puzzles, solve Rose Gardens and solve vowel-less crosswords and solve trivia. and Go to Mystery Hunt and solve puzzles there. Really broaden your puzzle horizons because gosh, the number of times I have inspiration for cool stuff in crosswords because I'm learning a trivia fact.
00:49:36
Speaker
that happens all the time. Oh, do cryptics? Oh, if you want to get good at clues, do cryptics, make cryptic clues, try to puzzle out cryptic clues.
00:49:47
Speaker
It unlocks a part of your brain that you need in crossword constructing, even if you think that it's unrelated. Yeah, I feel like it unlocks my brain, but I think it also breaks my brain. And it's fun, but also kind difficult to shift back to normal crosswords after being in the cryptic world. It's almost like going to Wonderland or something where it's just an entirely different logic. And it's hard to go back to the real world after that.
00:50:14
Speaker
Absolutely. And what venues would you suggest for a constructor who's just getting started? So this is my pitch to everybody to do ABCX puzzles, both submitting to ABCX and also solving ABCX.
00:50:27
Speaker
ABCX is what made me the constructor that I am in so many ways. Ben Tosig mentored me without that being an official title at any point in our decade plus of working together. but He put me on the onion staff very early on in my career.
00:50:45
Speaker
And he has continued that mentorship ethos within the ABCX as it's expanded beyond just that weekly puzzle. They take open submissions.
00:50:56
Speaker
They give really good feedback if you're a new constructor. And if they want your puzzle, they will work with you to get it into fighting shape. If they don't want your puzzle, they'll give you really good feedback as to why they don't want your puzzle.
00:51:08
Speaker
So I cannot recommend ABCX highly enough. The puzzles are super high quality. So everyone check out ABCX. Very persuasive. And do you have any crossword goals for the future?
00:51:20
Speaker
I've published a New York Times puzzle every day except Saturday. and I would love to at some point publish a Saturday. I really struggle with making my puzzles hard. i think I've gotten a little bit better as I've learned more things.
00:51:34
Speaker
But I feel like with hard puzzles, you need to... put hard things in the grid and also write hard clues for hard things. And I struggle with both of those kind of. So I would love to have a puzzle that's on a Saturday.
00:51:49
Speaker
I also would love to have a puzzle at the ACPT. That's another bucket list item. I've thought about just sneaking in and switching the puzzle to my puzzle.
00:52:01
Speaker
feel like that might be easier. That's a great idea. Security's relaxed. I feel like no one will notice. Yeah. Like like in Indiana Jones. Yeah. And then is there anything you hope to see change or merge in the world of crosswords in the future?
Future Goals and Episode Conclusion
00:52:17
Speaker
Something that I've gotten much more into recently our cryptic crosswords. And... There's so much potential in the world of cryptics. The ABCX is kind of the only mainstream cryptic venue in America that I know about. And I want more people to know and love cryptics.
00:52:36
Speaker
And I want there to be more venues to publish cryptics. and Another bucket list item is to publish a cryptic. Yeah, that's a worthy goal. I don't know if you know about cryptic crossweird.
00:52:48
Speaker
which is a newer venue. I published my first cryptic with them earlier this year. They're Patreon based, and I think they've published around 20 crosswords so far.
00:53:00
Speaker
So yeah, check them out. They've got some really quality puzzles and it could even be a good place to meet your goal. That is amazing. I will definitely check that out. Fantastic.
00:53:11
Speaker
And with that, we've reached the end of our episode. Do you have any closing thoughts you'd like to share? I really enjoyed talking with you today. This was a ton of fun. Thank you. I really enjoyed it as well.
00:53:24
Speaker
And so on that note, this is Daniel Grimberg with my special guest, Amy Lucido. Be sure to check out her new crossword-themed book, Words Apart, that came out this October.
00:53:37
Speaker
Thanks so much to Amy for joining me today. And thanks so much to all of you for listening to episode number six. Feel free to hit me up with any feedback or ideas you might have at the crosstalkpod at gmail.com.
00:53:49
Speaker
And join me again next time for another Constructor Conversation coming your way soon. Until then, wishing you inspired constructing and happy solving.