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Winter Roots Podcast: Recruiting Leadership with Sarah McGowen Audet
3 Plays1 month ago
The Winter Roots podcast features thoughtful, practical conversations with nonprofit leaders about the nuts and bolts of nonprofit work.
Each conversation is shaped by real questions submitted by nonprofit professionals who participate in the Winter Roots learning community. The result is grounded, experience-based dialogue that reflects what people are actually wrestling with in their day-to-day work.
Winter Roots is a seasonal learning space rooted in reflection, shared wisdom, and humane approaches to nonprofit work. These podcast conversations are designed to stand on their own — whether you’re part of the Winter Roots community or discovering it for the first time!
Find out more about Winter Roots: https://www.harlownonprofitconsulting.com/the-way-we-work-winter2026
Connect with Abbey: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harlownonprofitconsulting/
Find out more about Sarah: hedgehog fox.co
Book a free call with Sarah: book a 30 minute session
Follow Sarah on Instagram: @hedgehogfox.co
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Transcript
Introduction to Winter Roots and Partners
00:00:01
Abbey Harlow
Welcome to the Winter Roots podcast.
00:00:01
Sarah
Thank you.
00:00:03
Abbey Harlow
I'm Abby Harlow, and I'm really glad you're here. If Winter Roots is new to you, it's a free, seasonal, virtual learning space that brings together over 200 people from across the country and Canada working in and alongside nonprofits. It's rooted in the belief that how we gather matters just as much as what we're learning, and that the sector also needs more spaces that center care and connection, alongside strategy and skill building.
00:00:32
Abbey Harlow
These conversations are just one way that we extend that gathering. So even if this podcast episode is your only point of entry into Winter Roots, you're part of it. And hello.
00:00:42
Abbey Harlow
This podcast is the nuts and bolts piece of Winter Roots. It's where we bring in people with deep expertise and invite participants to ask very real, very specific questions.
00:00:54
Abbey Harlow
Sometimes we just all need the chance to pick someone's brain and ask them a question that's really been on our mind. The questions you'll hear here today were not written by me at all. They were entirely sourced from our Winter Roots community. People who registered early shared what they wanted to ask, specific, practical, sometimes thorny or complex questions that were just really fascinating to read and share with our podcast guests. Across the whole arc of the podcast, um I'm speaking with experts on topics like databases, programming, branding, grant writing, plan giving, and then today recruiting leadership and supporting them.
00:01:32
Abbey Harlow
Each conversation is shaped by what the community is actively working through right now. Before we begin, I want to take a moment to thank our partners in this work. Thank you to the Alchemist Foundation, who support the stability and strength of local nonprofits, Front Porch Forum, which is Vermont's locally owned online space built to help neighbors connect and build community, and to Little Green Light, which is an affordable donor management and fundraising software solution specifically built for the needs of small to midsize nonprofits. And you can try it for free at littlegreenlight.com.
00:02:10
Abbey Harlow
I'm joined today by Sarah McGowan Audette, and I'm just gonna read a little bit about her before we bring her in.
Introducing Sarah McGowan Audette
00:02:16
Abbey Harlow
um Sarah is an award-winning nonprofit consultant and the founder of Hedgehog and Fox Collaborative, where she supports Vermont's mission-driven organizations through strategic planning, communications, leadership development, and executive search. With years of experience and nonprofit leadership and a deep commitment to community centered work, Sarah partners with food shelves, land trusts, housing organizations, museums, environmental coalitions, recovery programs and more throughout the state. Outside of her consulting work, Sarah is deeply rooted in her Addison County community. She's a mom to two amazing kids, an avid runner and skier, and a lover of Vermont's arts, food, and outdoor culture.
Recognizing Leadership Transition Signals
00:02:59
Abbey Harlow
With that, let's begin. hi Sarah.
00:03:02
Sarah
Hi, Abby, I'm so thrilled to be here.
00:03:03
Abbey Harlow
yes I'm so glad to have you. Thank you Shall we jump right in?
00:03:09
Sarah
My pleasure. sir
00:03:10
Abbey Harlow
Yeah.
00:03:11
Sarah
Absolutely, let's get to it.
00:03:11
Abbey Harlow
please Yeah, we've got a
00:03:12
Sarah
I love these questions that people submitted.
00:03:15
Abbey Harlow
I know. Yeah, um I'm sure I'll learn a lot too. So i will I will kick things off with our first question, which was someone would like to know, how do you identify any signals telling you that it's time to recruit and hire?
00:03:30
Sarah
Yeah, such a great question. and So I think there are two kinds of signals to look for. One kind of big picture, those are organizational signals. um And then there are also people signals.
00:03:41
Sarah
um So in the in the category of organizational signals, certainly if you're an organization that has a long tenured executive director, or perhaps you have a founder who's been serving in that role, if that person is seeming a little bit exhausted or really exhausted, even burnt out, um that can be a sign that it's time to look for your next leader.
00:03:49
Abbey Harlow
so
00:04:07
Sarah
um Another organizational signal, and sometimes ah the strategy for an organization can be evolving faster than leadership capacity.
00:04:18
Sarah
um which isn't necessarily a failure of the leader. um It's just sometimes a sign that and the organization has grown in such a way that it's no longer a great fit for whatever...
00:04:23
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:04:32
Sarah
um you know, leadership skills or qualities that person brought. um Certainly, I've been in that position in leadership roles where I've brought an organization to a certain point. And then it's time time to move on and do something different, um both for myself and for the organization as well.
00:04:53
Sarah
um And then i would say maybe a third organizational signal that it's time to to you know hire a new ah leader um is certainly when crisis management becomes the norm. and If your leader or your board or other staff members are just constantly having to put out fires, and that can be a really good um you know moment to do a
Role of Recruiters in Leadership Transition
00:05:20
Sarah
gut check. um and ask, is this really um the best leadership model for us?
00:05:26
Sarah
So those are the organizational get signals. and There are also people signals as well. If you're serving on a board and you're noticing that there's really high staff turnover or disengagement, that can be an indicator that you know perhaps your your team of staff are just no longer jiving with the leadership.
00:05:50
Sarah
If staff are really unclear about um who who's supposed to be making decision, what the lines of communications are, that can also point to some leadership challenges as well.
00:05:58
Abbey Harlow
Thank
00:06:05
Sarah
um And then a third people signal, and this this next one kind of happens in situations where maybe the executive director has already moved on and you've identified an interim ah leadership. um to to step in.
00:06:23
Sarah
um If that kind of starts to become the default versus just kind of a stepping stone to to perhaps ah a more permanent leader, that is a great time to to say, okay, yes, we actually need to recommit ourselves to finding a permanent solution.
00:06:36
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:06:42
Sarah
Because sometimes when those interim leaders kind of get in and get comfortable, We can start to say, hey, why are we going to rock the boat versus is this really the right long term leadership model for us?
00:06:56
Abbey Harlow
Yeah, that's that's a great list. um Once an organization has identified one or more of these, um some of these things that you've brought up, and they say, okay, we think it's time to recruit or hire somebody. When do they make the decision to use a recruiter and how do they choose one?
00:07:17
Sarah
Absolutely. Such ah another great question. um So I think it's helpful to use recruiters, certainly for any sort of senior leadership or highly visible roles. You know, what in in terms of what I just shared of those signals that it's time to recruit, I focus specifically on executive directors, but certainly any sort of um senior leadership roles, anything that's going to be out in the community or is very public facing. um For other roles within your organization, it might not make sense to use a recruiter.
00:07:49
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:07:52
Sarah
um You might be able to have your executive director, if they're hiring for like a middle management role or a coordinator type role, they can probably handle it on their own. But certainly anything that's senior or highly visible, could be a good time to consider using recruiter.
00:08:09
Sarah
um If you are in a situation of wanting to maintain confidentiality or certainly any sort of sensitive transition, like if you have an executive director moving on under challenging circumstances, it can be great to use a recruiter because you don't necessarily want um you know, your staff members um at the outset being privy to everybody who's applying.
00:08:38
Sarah
Certainly, as as I'm sure you're aware, Abby, here in Vermont, we have such small communities. And sometimes we have executive directors from peer organizations applying for these roles.
00:08:43
Abbey Harlow
Yes.
00:08:48
Sarah
um And for very good reasons, they they probably want to keep that keep that under wraps and and make sure that only a a handful of other people, if that, even know that they're they're looking to to make that jump.
00:09:03
Sarah
um Another time when it's great to use a recruiter is um you know when boards don't necessarily have and the capacity, whether that's you know HR expertise or even time, to commit to ah leading and executing on a search process.
00:09:09
Abbey Harlow
Wow.
00:09:23
Sarah
um I did some math recently. and it usually takes me around 90 to 100 hours to conduct a search, which is a significant ask um of of volunteer board members to to give that amount of time um to a search. So certainly if if you don't have anybody on your board who's able to rightfully contribute that amount of time, um certainly looking for a recruiter.
00:09:52
Sarah
um can be helpful. And then finally, I would say um when equity um is a is, you know, central to the values of your organization, when you want to have um a really polished approach to equity,
00:09:58
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:10:11
Sarah
doing outreach to candidates, making sure that the process has a lot of integrity to it. and It can be helpful to get somebody who, you know, just has lots of experience with doing recruitment and can be a really warm and professional representative of your organization.
00:10:33
Sarah
And then I think you had a second, the second part to your question was, you know how do you even choose
Executive Search Process and Best Practices
00:10:38
Sarah
a recruiter? Do I have that right?
00:10:39
Abbey Harlow
Right, right.
00:10:39
Sarah
Yeah.
00:10:39
Abbey Harlow
Yes.
00:10:40
Sarah
Yeah. um Yeah. So there are a few things I would say to either ask about or to look for a few things to look for. and making sure that your recruiter will be using a clear process, and that they've got strong communication skills, that they're able to communicate well with your board, and that they're going to communicate in a really um effective way with the candidates because the recruiter essentially becomes now these candidates' first point of contact with your organization.
00:11:02
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:11:12
Sarah
You want to make sure that they are going to represent you well. um And I think also a willingness to challenge assumptions. And by that I mean, um you know, ah board members are going to be bringing their own experiences to this process.
00:11:29
Sarah
Perhaps they've been involved um in search processes um at their own organizations or businesses.
00:11:35
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:11:36
Sarah
Certainly they might be ah somewhat vaguely aware of what the job market is um and And that's certainly all valuable, but I think what a recruiter can do is bring in um you know a new perspective that might not be represented. Generally, recruiters are staying really on top of um the ever-changing job market, which you know in the last year has has changed is so different. you know The 2025 market is so different from what it looked like, you know say, from COVID through 2024.
00:12:12
Abbey Harlow
Right.
00:12:13
Sarah
um And then i think important things to ask about as you're evaluating potential recruiters and is what are their strategies for outreach and equity?
00:12:15
Abbey Harlow
No.
00:12:26
Sarah
um You don't want a recruiter who's just going to rely on their own existing network to tap your next leader. i think it's really important, especially from an equity perspective, to make sure that your recruiter is really willing to look beyond their own network and cast a really broad net, so to speak.
00:12:42
Abbey Harlow
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:12:47
Sarah
So that way you're finding um you know candidates that maybe wouldn't have otherwise heard about you. You also want to ask about how they're going to partner with boards to find the executive director versus running the process for them. and Certainly one of the benefits of having a recruiter is that they can very closely manage that process, but it should really look like a partnership um where the board has um you know the The board and staff actually have the ability to bring their own experience and expertise within the organization to bear on the process.
00:13:25
Sarah
You don't want your recruiter kind of going off on their own and then coming back and saying, hey, i just found you, you're next year.
00:13:31
Abbey Harlow
Yes.
00:13:33
Sarah
um And then I would say the last piece to ask about and is what is that recruiter's approach to transparency with candidates? Abby, I know you're very active on LinkedIn, and I'm sure you've been reading as I have a lot of the horror stories that candidates have to share about their experiences um with the with the job search process.
00:13:51
Abbey Harlow
yes
00:13:54
Sarah
like There's so much around like, I don't hear back from anybody for months or they, you know, i get so far in the process.
00:14:01
Abbey Harlow
Okay.
00:14:03
Sarah
I've done all these interviews. um And then, you know, the company or the organization just ghosted. We don't want that to happen. As I mentioned before, our recruiters are that, you know,
00:14:11
Abbey Harlow
and
00:14:15
Sarah
usually that first contact point for candidates. And so for me, it's so important to be transparent with candidates that, you know, your recruiter is acknowledging that they've gotten an application, that they are communicating with candidates about where they stand in the process in a timely manner, and that they're letting them know kind of like what the timeline is for the search and what they can expect in terms of next steps.
00:14:40
Abbey Harlow
Yeah, absolutely. I think to your point, that's just that's so important. You know, I've heard from friends of mine who just say, oh, it's you know, I'm
00:14:51
Abbey Harlow
interviewing for a senior leadership role and the interviews just keep going on and on and on. I have no idea when they'll end or how many of them will be or where I stand and things like
Benefits of Nationwide Searches
00:15:01
Abbey Harlow
that. So that's that's a really important note to end that that question on. um Along those lines, you know, you've when you've made the decision to use a recruiter um and you've maybe chosen a recruiter, how, and you hinted at this a little bit in your last answer, how do you, where does the board fit in, in terms of how do you manage them when there's ah a search for the executive director or any leadership role?
00:15:28
Sarah
Yeah, another great question.
00:15:29
Abbey Harlow
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:30
Sarah
Yeah, for sure. and so I think it's important to set expectations early with the board. um You know, just as when you're having an new executive director or really any kind of new leader come in and you want to be intentional about talking about how you're going to work together.
00:15:47
Sarah
Same thing should be happening between a recruiter and um the board. So setting expectations early looks like, um number one, clarifying roles.
00:15:57
Sarah
Is the full board going to be involved in this search process? Is there um you know perhaps a subset, a search committee that's a mix of board and staff who are involved um in in this process?
00:16:05
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:16:11
Sarah
um As part of clarifying roles, you certainly want to define what are all the decision points along the way versus um where the recruiter has a little bit of latitude to make decisions on their own, perhaps with input either from the full board or the search committee, depending on which which um you know direction you're you've taken there.
00:16:35
Sarah
and Some examples there of decision points versus input points. So a decision point might be you know your recruiter comes back to you with um say a short list of 10 candidates, it's going to be probably a decision point for the group to decide, okay, among this um group of top candidates, who are we going to select for the next round of interviews? um An input point might be something like, um you know, everybody's had the opportunity to weigh in on the job description. um
00:17:15
Sarah
And that becomes an input point for then the recruiter to go off on their own um and kind of have have have that latitude to review applications decide and decide ultimately who's going to be screened. And that that doesn't necessarily need to be something that the board or the search committee gets involved in, unless you want it to be, of course, in your process.
00:17:39
Sarah
And then I think the third important piece of um setting expectation expectations early is agreeing on confidentiality norms.
00:17:43
Abbey Harlow
Right.
00:17:48
Sarah
um you know Again, Abby, getting back to that, um you know the small rural nature of of the work that we do here in Vermont. And oftentimes, like I said, we we do have um you know leaders or executive directors from other organizations applying for positions. um And we don't want to um you know we don't want to cause any harm to them for you know engaging in a very normal behavior of looking for a new job. um So I think getting everybody to agree that you know what you know the applications that are coming through, the discussions that we're having, it's really important that those stay stay in the room.
00:18:27
Sarah
um And then the, I think the second piece of working with boards is helping them or you know, being really supportive of them in being successful in their roles as finding um the next executive director, because obviously, you know, that's that's one of the most important governance functions of a board of directors.
00:18:42
Abbey Harlow
So,
00:18:48
Sarah
So I like to give board members language that they can use with staff and donors throughout the process. So that way, folks who are connected to the organization or supporting the organization in some way um feel confident that the search for that the the next leader is moving forward in a really thoughtful and timely fashion.
00:19:10
Sarah
I think it's important to keep the board informed, but maybe not involved in in everything. So as I as i mentioned earlier, a great example of that might be, um you know, i don't I generally don't have boards, review every application that comes in.
00:19:21
Abbey Harlow
Mm-hmm.
00:19:28
Sarah
I'll i'll manage that piece and determine who who gets screened and then who ultimately makes it onto the shortlist of top candidates.
00:19:39
Sarah
um And then the final thing that i'll I'll add to all of this is I think you know part of my role in supporting the board as a recruiter and is to help keep them grounded in what they're looking for and avoiding scope creep, so to speak.
00:19:54
Sarah
um
00:19:54
Abbey Harlow
Mm-hmm.
00:19:55
Sarah
So once we, at the very beginning of the process, kind of lock in that job description in terms of, you know, what the roles and responsibilities look like, what what the qualifications are We're going to stick with that throughout the process. Sometimes you can kind of get down the road and I might hear something like, oh, I think we should really hire somebody who's local.
00:20:17
Sarah
Well, did we did do do we say in the job description or the job posting that it needs to be somebody who lives in this area? Chances are no that we didn't. And so it's not really fair to evaluate people against criteria that we didn't set from the beginning.
00:20:32
Abbey Harlow
Yeah, yeah, that's all. Just a moment to say this is no surprise knowing you
Equity and Pay Transparency in Leadership
00:20:38
Abbey Harlow
just so well thought out and clear and I would imagine a very great and thorough process.
00:20:46
Abbey Harlow
So thank you for sharing us, ah sharing with us the sort of peek into how it works. i'm I know I'm very fascinated. um
00:20:53
Sarah
of
00:20:55
Abbey Harlow
so but Along those lines of when you're, um when a board member says, you know, hey, we, we want to hire somebody local. um Somebody asked a question too, what are the the benefits and drawbacks of nationwide searches or even just regional searches for more locally based positions?
00:21:16
Sarah
Absolutely. Yeah. So um yeah, there's, it's ah it's a double edged sword for sure. um i would say on the benefits side of that picture, um one benefit is an expanded talent pool.
00:21:31
Sarah
um So here in Vermont, I know not every, not all of our our listeners are in Vermont and this is, but this is the context that, you know, you and i both work in and is we have an aging population here in Vermont.
00:21:40
Abbey Harlow
Mm-hmm.
00:21:44
Sarah
There simply aren't enough Sarah Holtzman, workers to fill fill all of the positions that we need and certainly we often talk about the brain drain that is happening in Vermont where we have some really great institutions of higher education, but oftentimes people move on from Vermont and don't stay here. um to to build careers and and lives.
00:22:08
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:22:08
Sarah
So I think, you know, again, a benefit of doing a national search is it gives us access to candidates with specialized skills, lived experience, and leadership exposure that may not always exist locally, um which, you know, is helpful not just in Vermont, but really, um you know, in in any rural area or if you're um and working in ah in a niche field, so to speak.
00:22:34
Sarah
um I think it can also, as part and parcel of that, help to bring a fresh perspective. So leaders from outside the region region can question assumptions about how we do things here in Vermont.
00:22:47
Sarah
and They can bring with them new partnerships, as well as some tested systems that maybe we just haven't and encountered here.
00:22:54
Abbey Harlow
Mm-hmm.
00:22:56
Sarah
And then I think the third major benefit of doing a national search is that it's a signal of seriousness for your organization. so a national search can communicate and that your organization is ambitious, it's stable, and really ready for the next chapter.
00:23:15
Sarah
um But as with anything, there are drawbacks, of course. um I think, you know, here in Vermont, there's a relocation risk. So I think sometimes candidates can underestimate the realities of housing, schools,
00:23:30
Sarah
health care, um you know, the rural just the rural nature of of what it's like to be here in Vermont.
00:23:32
Abbey Harlow
you.
00:23:37
Sarah
And sometimes that can lead to shorter tenures. So certainly, you know, one way to mitigate that risk is, um you know, during some of those initial conversations with your most promising candidates is um you know, listening for any sort of signals from them that they've kind of looked into what housing looks like, that they have a sense of the cost of living that's here, that they are aware of winters.
00:24:02
Sarah
I'm actually in the midst of the search, and I'm so grateful that later this week, we are having our classic January thaw here in Vermont, because we've got some fun coming from warm weather states and and they're not going to be scared by, you know, the the sub-zero temperatures we've had the rest of this season.
00:24:22
Sarah
um Let's see. So another drawback, of course, to a national search um is sometimes a community trust gap. So occasionally local stakeholders might have concerns that the new leader won't necessarily understand the community or its history. and i don't know if this is necessarily um you know, unique to Vermont, but I think sometimes Vermonters can get a little territorial um about who's a Vermonter.
00:24:49
Abbey Harlow
Okay.
00:24:55
Sarah
um But I think, you know, one way that you can, and again, mitigate that concern during the interview process is kind of to assess um quote unquote local fluency as a competency.
00:25:07
Sarah
So is this candidate curious? Do they have great listening skills? Um,
00:25:12
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:25:13
Sarah
You know, oftentimes i would say humility humility um in entering a new community can matter just as much as prior experience. And then the last piece, of course, um ah in terms of drawbacks for national searches, and is that they can be costly and they can take a little extra time.
00:25:35
Sarah
Certainly national searches um can, um you know, increase costs for your organization because oftentimes you're bringing candidates in for visits and and ideally you're you're able to, you know, reimburse them for travel expenses and certainly planning all of that um can make the timeline um a little bit longer.
00:25:57
Sarah
But I do think ultimately um national searches are great for for any organization, as long as you recognize that
Priorities for New Leaders
00:26:06
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:26:06
Sarah
you know you probably need to be paying at least $100,000 a year, if not more, to make it worthwhile for somebody um to relocate to your area.
00:26:17
Sarah
Yeah.
00:26:18
Abbey Harlow
Yeah, yeah, that's also a very a very important point and goes well into my next question, which is bit a question about compensation philosophy. How can compensation philosophy and hiring practices align with an organization's of values, including equity and staff morale?
00:26:38
Sarah
Absolutely. I love this question. um so I think, you know, whoever asked this question kind of hit the nail on the head. It's so true that staff do notice um when leadership compensation feels disconnected from organizational values.
00:26:50
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:26:53
Sarah
I will say, you know, in my my experience here in Vermont, I find a lot of our executive leaders, with some exceptions, um Tend to be, you know, their compensation tends to be on par with what ah other staff are making. um I think the notable exceptions, which are, you know, probably don't come as any kind of surprise to anybody, but usually the disparities are happening traditionally in health care or higher education. But by and large, and I feel very proud that a lot of the organizations I'm working with at least um do have some pay equity in place. But I recognize like that's not that's not true for everybody. um So I think it's important for organizations really to look at some equity-oriented hiring practices. So first and foremost, pay transparency is so important. um
00:27:47
Sarah
We should be sharing as we're doing our searches, we should be sharing our salary ranges um in the job postings. That's actually now, you know, a legal requirement, at least in Vermont.
00:27:58
Abbey Harlow
Woohoo!
00:27:59
Sarah
Yeah, i know. i love that. um It's a requirement in Vermont.
00:28:01
Abbey Harlow
Mm-hmm.
00:28:03
Sarah
I think if you have... um Forgive me, I feel like I should know the ins and outs of this law. but The reason that I don't is because I actually kind of borderline require all of my clients to share the salary ranges.
00:28:14
Abbey Harlow
Mm-hmm.
00:28:15
Sarah
But I think the law is actually like if you have five or more employees, you have to share the salary range.
00:28:19
Abbey Harlow
Mm-hmm.
00:28:21
Sarah
And if you're below five, you don't have to. But like I said, I make everybody do it because I think it it's such a such an important piece of of equity and inclusion. um Yes, so sharing those publicly, but then also um sharing them internally.
00:28:36
Sarah
um
00:28:36
Abbey Harlow
Thank
00:28:37
Sarah
As you're looking to hire, I think doing a gut check and really evaluating pay ratios to make sure that your executives' compensation relative to your lowest paid staff um is not is not out of whack.
00:28:58
Sarah
um As you're looking at your annual budgets, um certainly pair leadership compensation decisions with plans to raise wages for other employees, add to their benefits, or reduce their workload.
00:29:04
Abbey Harlow
so
00:29:12
Sarah
and I worked with an organization once that um they were bringing in a new executive director after, I would say, a fairly long-tenured previous executive director, and they knew that they needed to in the current job market substantially increase um the salary for that position in order to attract strong candidates.
00:29:37
Sarah
And so they did that. But you know before that was even made public, they had internal discussions with their staff to say, we are aware that this you know, increase the salary creates some disparity between the executive leadership and the rest of the staff, please know that once we have this next executive director in place, one of their responsibilities is going to be, um you know, increasing philanthropic efforts.
00:30:12
Sarah
So that way we can also increase the the wages and benefits of the rest of the staff. And certainly that was a huge conversation that happened throughout the interviews.
00:30:19
Abbey Harlow
Hmm.
00:30:24
Sarah
So, you know, the staff, you know, I wouldn't say that they loved that the next executive director was going to be making substantially more, but they understood the reasoning for that.
00:30:35
Sarah
And they also understood um that, you know, change was on the horizon and they really appreciated the transparency. um And then, you know, kind of to to dovetail with that, as you're hiring your next executive director, please ask them about how they've addressed wage inequity, staff out, power dynamics.
00:30:54
Abbey Harlow
Hmm.
00:30:58
Sarah
Those will be, um I think it that that will really illuminate the likelihood that as you're moving forward, you can kind of um decrease the gap between what staff are earning and what executive leaders are earning as well.
00:31:15
Sarah
And certainly, again, as you're as you're evaluating these candidates, look for people who have grown organizations sustainably, not you know not just a matter of scaling budgets, but you know um ensuring that people have manageable workloads.
00:31:30
Abbey Harlow
Right.
00:31:32
Sarah
Pick people who have lived experience that are closer to staff realities. um And then finally, I would say, you know, within reason, look for candidates who are motivated by impact and longevity, not just compensation.
00:31:47
Sarah
And i and and then i say like within reason, because we don't want to go so far into that, you know, traditional trope of like, oh, you know, the fact that we work at nonprofits um and do this mission driven work that, you know, the real benefit is that it worms our hearts and not our home, right?
00:32:03
Abbey Harlow
Right. Right. if
00:32:05
Sarah
So yeah, so bottom line, the goal isn't necessarily cheaper leaders, but leaders who understand that stack well-being is mission critical and values aligned infrastructure.
00:32:16
Abbey Harlow
That's great. um And then, you know, the next question is, we've ah we've identified we need to ah to have a recruiting process, it's time to do it, we've got it all done, we've hired somebody, and as we're planning for the arrival of them, how Does a staff consider this, or a staff or board consider this within the lens of priorities for the first 90 days, six months, a year? what What are some things that you've seen others do that have worked?
00:32:51
Sarah
Great question. and So I think first and foremost, thinking about the 90 days, six months, one year out picture, and developing what those look like should hopefully be um you know done in partnership. So I love um you know, as part of maybe not a screening interview necessarily, but maybe a first or second round interview is asking candidates what they're imagining, you know, those first X, Y, and Z time periods might look like.
00:33:21
Sarah
And I also really love it when candidates turn it back on either, you know, the board or me as the the screener, and saying, you know, what does success will look like in this role?
00:33:34
Abbey Harlow
then okay
00:33:34
Sarah
What are you hoping for me to accomplish in my first X, Y, z number of days? um That said, I think there are some um you know key milestones to look at along the way.
00:33:47
Sarah
So really those first 90 days are about listening and learning. So um hopefully your executive director will go on you know one of those classic listening tours with staff.
00:33:59
Abbey Harlow
thought
00:34:00
Sarah
Ford partners, funders, even the community, um just to learn more about the organization, its impact in the community.
00:34:03
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:34:07
Sarah
And maybe they're, you know, as as we were talking about earlier, maybe this is somebody who is brand new to the community, and that they're just having um an opportunity to build additional context for themselves.
00:34:19
Sarah
um I think as part of that listening and learning, and executives should, you know, as much as possible, avoid making major changes unless absolutely necessary.
00:34:31
Sarah
um Certainly a big piece of that is you want to be first establishing trust with people through your visibility, through demonstrating follow through. um So that way down the line, when you do need to make those major changes, there's there are strong relationships and buy-in in place.
00:34:51
Sarah
um And then I think that, you know, another key focus of those first 90 days are clarifying decision points and governance boundaries very early on.
00:35:03
Sarah
I think it's so important for boards and executives to be really intentional and in talking about um what their expectations are for each other and what those boundaries are.
00:35:14
Sarah
That'll that'll certainly set you up for some success along the way. um As we're looking further out at, you know say, the six-month mark, um you really want to see a lot of alignment and stabilization.
00:35:26
Sarah
So naming priorities very clearly, addressing any sort of structural issues, so staffing, workload, finances. Maybe six months is when you can, you know as we were talking about before, boost boost staff pay to so to bring it more in line with what the executive is earning.
00:35:42
Abbey Harlow
All right.
00:35:44
Sarah
um This is also a great opportunity now that the executive has you know done the work of listening and learning more about the organization and the community context, and that they can do some intentional work around shaping culture.
00:36:01
Sarah
um And then at the one year mark, um this is really about, um i would say, strategy positioning and longer term ah ah fundraising.
00:36:16
Sarah
So um by this point, you know the the leader, the executive has had
00:36:20
Abbey Harlow
Thank
00:36:22
Sarah
Lots of opportunity to learn, to build relationships, to get some you know stable operations in place ah if they if they weren't already stable. And now it's time to start making some strategic adjustments rooted in what they learned so they can strengthen their senior team, take a closer look at um fundraising, um doing that external positioning.
00:36:50
Sarah
um And hopefully by this point at the one year mark, the board has been able to transition from being maybe oversight heavy within reason to partnership oriented.
00:37:02
Abbey Harlow
Hmm.
00:37:04
Sarah
i mean, certainly you don't want, you never want at any point along the way for the board to be, um you know, micromanagers or too much in the business of the executive director or the operations, so to speak.
00:37:15
Sarah
um But hopefully at that one year mark, it can be really a true partnership. um I think what can derail the transitions, there are two big things. One is boards expecting transformation too soon before the executive has had a chance to fully understand the context. I was actually in a position like this once where i would say a month in, And my bosses were all wondering why I hadn't, you know, made radical changes and, you know, waved a magic wand and all of the problems were fixed. And and i totally appreciated that sense of urgency. But I think, you know, as a as an organizational leadership nerd, I knew that it's important to come in and learn and be humble and fully understand before, you know, you're making decisions.
00:38:08
Sarah
radical changes. And then I think the flip side of that is sometimes leaders can feel the pressure to prove themselves too fast.
00:38:09
Abbey Harlow
Mm-hmm.
00:38:17
Sarah
um And again, you know, from an organizational leadership perspective, and people want to see you taking the time to learn as much as you can to build those
Engaging with Donors Effectively
00:38:28
Sarah
relationships.
00:38:28
Sarah
um And that will actually be the thing that helps you to prove yourself as a leader versus um changing too much too quickly.
00:38:38
Abbey Harlow
Yeah, that's that's really great. I think, you know, back to the first point of what you answered there, it's great to go in with a balance, it sounds like, of flexibility, but then also having in mind a general timeline and and and major sort of things to to to think about in those timelines and stay away from, perhaps. um Along those lines, another part of this question was, and you you hinted at it a little bit in your answer, but how to plan introductions to top donors, top prospects, any tips or but best practices there?
00:39:16
Sarah
Absolutely. So welcoming a new executive director is, of course, a wonderful opportunity to engage your donors in a low cost way. You don't have to plan ah a big fancy gala.
00:39:27
Sarah
and The goal here um is relationship continuity.
00:39:28
Abbey Harlow
Mm-hmm.
00:39:32
Sarah
It's really not about immediate fundraising. and Some listeners might have been surprised to hear me say that you know, the longer term fundraising kind of comes a year in. And really that's because um we don't want to ask the new executive director director to fundraise immediately before they've had the opportunity um to build trust and relationships with donors and make sure that they have full contextual understanding. and So some, you know, spitballing some best practices here. um One is to segment your donors. So you've got your inner circle people. and Those might be the folks that the executive director will meet with early.
00:40:14
Sarah
and They're going to get personal introductions from board or staff.
00:40:15
Abbey Harlow
so
00:40:19
Sarah
And it's even possible that and these are donors that your executive director will meet with even before their day one. um Looking a little more broadly, um they might start looking to meet with core supporters within their first 90 days. um And then broader-based donors could be you know anywhere from four months, nine months, a year out. um Another best practice for introducing your executive director to donors um is to let your donors know why the executive director wants to meet with them, and that it's really not about asking for gifts, and that it's just there to meet with them, to listen, to start building the relationship.
00:40:46
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:41:05
Sarah
um I think it's also important for organizations to think about what the board's role is um it is in all of this. um you know We don't want to throw the executive director into the deep end of the pool and say, okay, go out and meet with donors.
00:41:12
Abbey Harlow
Thank you.
00:41:19
Sarah
um Hopefully board members, if not all of them, at least a handful of them can help contextualize the donor's existing relationship or historical relationship with the organization. and that they can host, that they can go along with the ED to make that introduction, you know, and just be a second warm and friendly face there as the ED is asking questions and learning more.
00:41:48
Sarah
And then the fourth piece, um hopefully organizations are already doing this anyway, but if not, um definitely make sure that the ED is capturing insights in these donor conversations.
00:41:53
Abbey Harlow
Thank
00:42:03
Sarah
So if you don't already have a way of tracking your interactions with your donors, this could be a great opportunity to start or a great excuse to start. So keep, have the executive director keep a relationship log, and have them document what matters to each donor that they're talking to what their, you know, the the nature of their relationship with the organization is, um And then certainly any sort of cautions around the donors giving, if there are things that we know that, you know, say that they don't want to support or they don't want to see.
00:42:38
Sarah
um If there are things that, you know, ways that we've communicated with them in the past that they really don't don't want to be communicated with anymore. Yeah.
00:42:49
Abbey Harlow
Yeah, that those are such great
Conclusion and Contact Information
00:42:52
Abbey Harlow
tips. um And yeah, to your point, as someone with a who works and with a lot of small nonprofits in fundraising, just the idea of we're just getting to know each other and you know make sure that the that aligns with the board's expectations.
00:43:05
Sarah
Yeah.
00:43:06
Abbey Harlow
Yeah, that's awesome. um Sarah, thank you so much for the thoughtfulness and the generosity you brought to this conversation. i know that everyone listening will find at least one thing, if not many things to take back to their organization and take back to their next um leadership search. Before we close, I just want to ask where can people find you or learn more about your work?
00:43:34
Sarah
Yeah, thanks so much, Abby. it was my pleasure to be here and share share some of my experiences from along the way. Certainly, if folks want to learn more about me, they can head to my website. That's hedgehogfox.co to learn more. um There they'll find all kinds of resources, not just about executive search. I also work in communication, strategic planning, and board development. And they can also join my email list and get those resources delivered straight to their inbox. um Finally, if they're curious about how we can work together, i encourage folks to book a 30-minute exploratory session with me. It's totally free to do And we can talk about um we can talk more about how we might work together moving forward.
00:44:19
Abbey Harlow
Great. um Thank you. And I will drop those into the show notes so people have them um and can take a look at at what more of what you're all about, Sarah. um As for me, you can connect with me if you're listening, Abby Harlow on LinkedIn or visit harlownonprofitconsulting.com. And that's also where you can learn more about Winter Roots and what this podcast, the series that this podcast is part of, you can join my mailing list and be the first to know about future gatherings, um including, I'm already putting my putting it out there and making myself say it, Winter Roots 2027. And I'll put all of that in the show notes as well. um
00:45:00
Abbey Harlow
I just wanted to end by saying, you know, if you're listening to this, whether you were in the middle of ah a work day or on a walk or doing whatever it what is as you go about your day. Hope this this conversation offered a nice pause for your brain and just to listen and learn and something that you can return to and reference as you keep moving forward. Thank you so much for listening and we'll catch you next time.