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The Vasa
253 Plays1 year ago
An incredibly ornate 17th century Swedish warship makes a splash on her maiden voyage!
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Transcript
Opening with Number Seven Discussion
00:00:12
Speaker
Check.
00:00:28
Speaker
All right. Everybody come up for air. The bubbles have subsided, which means we are in a new episode, episode seven, episode seven.
Significance of Seven in Gambling
00:00:37
Speaker
Yes. Lucky number seven. Right. And you know, well, I was going to ask, uh, you, um, did a diverting and informative little, um, tangent last week about the number six. I'm not a numerologist, you know, there's just one little fact, but I'm not going to make this a thing where like now every week it's like, Oh, what's your little factoid about number seven.
00:00:56
Speaker
Well, but you just said lucky number seven and I always forget, I always get forget from craps. Do people want seven or do they not want seven? You know, never really played much craps. I know snake eyes with the double ones. Seven seems good, but then it seems like maybe you crap out at seven because it's the most combinations with dice,
Heroics of Paul Carr
00:01:15
Speaker
right? Make a seven.
00:01:16
Speaker
so maybe it means you lose who knows but great to be in episode number seven yeah last week you told a great tale about this heroic escort destroyer who fought like a battleship in the pacific in what was as you described the largest naval battle ever is that right hell yeah
00:01:35
Speaker
What I thought was so great about it was that typically you think of D-Day, you think of Iwo Jima and all of these iconic moments, and you don't always think about the heroism and some of the incredible battles happening in an area like the Philippines. And so I love that we heard about Paul Carr. Paul Carr. This incredible guy. Heroic efforts.
00:01:57
Speaker
would be you could have a movie about Gunner's mate third class. I feel like had he survived, he definitely would have risen to second class or first or maybe just, you know, deserted. Yeah. You know, because he was unpredictable as someone who's that crazy at the last seconds of his life. He's still trying to load the weapon. And that's there. That's just there. They're made differently. Yeah, they were made differently back then.
Historical Context of 1628
00:02:24
Speaker
But anyways, I think we should move on because I'm so excited about what's coming this week. Episode seven, it's your turn. This is my absolute favorite. I get to just bust out the popcorn and just I'm the peanut gallery. Let's go back quickly to the last time I presented a ship. If you remember, it was the Delman host and it was a Danish ship, right? If you remember, in the Battle of the Felman. Oh, I remember. And it was the tale of the Swedish sinking the Danish ship.
00:02:53
Speaker
And that was in 1644, the year of the second Native American massacre. So as you mentioned, it was 1644 with the Delmenhurst. Let's go back to 1628. Oh, 1628. Okay. Incidentally, it was a leap year. I don't know if I mentioned that in one of the first ships I did, there was a leap year.
00:03:15
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to say the very first episode this year with the San Jose. I feel like maybe that was a leap. So let's quickly frame what 1628 was all about because it is considerably earlier than the 1644.
00:03:30
Speaker
A couple of facts about 1628. One, it happened to be the year that the Puritans settled Salem. So that was what later became part of the whole Massachusetts Bay Colony. But originally, when they settled Salem... And I forget, did they bring the witches with or the witches then were just there and they were burned later? Well, I think some of them must have snuck on board. Don't you have to at least bring one over? They might have flown down from Canada on a broomstick.
00:03:56
Speaker
Okay. 1628. Okay. So the pilgrims are settling Salem. What else we got going? We also have the oldest surviving educational institution in the United States in New York called the collegiate school. No way. Holy cow. Very early on. Probably the same year that the first bullying ever happened in America.
00:04:19
Speaker
and the first time someone was complaining about homework. But it was it was chartered right by the Protestant, the Dutch Protestant Church. So it was at the time in New Amsterdam. Yeah, but that would also have been the first year, the first ever fight between an American parent and an American teenager over
Oliver Cromwell in Parliament
00:04:40
Speaker
homework. I heard it was very rigorous. But anyways, its initial incarnation, it was a co-ed school that was located south of Canal Street.
00:04:47
Speaker
Look it up. It's moved, I think, 17 times. It's amazing they were already starting up a school. I mean, I just assume like back then you're just like, let's get a dry roof over our heads. Let's not get killed by the Indians. Yes. Let's start a rigorous prep school. So big credit to the ambitious dude who's like, I've got some free time. Um, I'm going to start up the collegiate school down the street.
00:05:10
Speaker
So now let's jump to the last little tidbit about 1628. That was the year that Oliver Cromwell, and I believe you're familiar with English history, made his first appearance in the English parliament. He was a member of parliament from Huntington in California.
00:05:26
Speaker
It was a little closer to London. So you're saying that OC was from the OC? OC was the original OC. So that's when he made his first appearance. And I feel like this is also kind of, is this, this is probably also maybe like Shakespearean times, I think. It does feel like it is exactly that
Swedish Naval History: King Gustav
00:05:43
Speaker
time period. Do you know that I'm named for like the second best playwright of that time, Kit Marlow?
00:05:49
Speaker
I don't know. People thought that about Francis Bacon, who knows. But I will say this, like, as long as your name and a kid after a playwright, like, why go with the second best dude? I think mom just liked the nickname, Kit.
00:06:12
Speaker
Okay, so Oliver Cromwell, 1628. I think this maybe is the Elizabethan age in England. Who knows? Who cares? You could be right, but here's the thing. We're not going to be in England. So now we're going back to the Baltic. Big fan of Scandinavia. We're going back. And in fact, one of Shakespeare's best known plays is Hamlet about a Danish prince. But go ahead.
00:06:40
Speaker
Is that the only play that takes place in Denmark? That? I don't know. I'm sure there are some other plays. Maybe Lizzie can look that up.
00:06:47
Speaker
OK, so this time we're going back to that area, but we're looking more at the suite. Last time we talked about the Danish ship. Today we're focusing on a Swedish ship and we're going back to the year it sank, which was, as mentioned, 1628. 1628. And is this in the context of some fighting and battling and all that? You're going down an interesting path because it is related to that, but in many ways completely unrelated. So the path I'm going down is more of a dead end.
00:07:15
Speaker
It's a path that's
Construction of the Vasa Warship
00:07:17
Speaker
going to take us where no one really wants to go. So instead we'll go down my path and we'll see where we end up. So now we have the King of Sweden, Gustav. But he's the one, he does have two eyes. He has two eyes, good remembering. He's fully eyed and Gustav Adolf II, he acceded to the throne in 1611. So he's been around, you know, by 1628 he's been around, you know. And that's back when you could still name a guy Adolf.
00:07:44
Speaker
Correct. Like that feels like that name is now off the books. Yeah. Yeah. I think it would be difficult. Okay. So Gustav, all right, sweet. So Gustav, when he becomes the king of Sweden, he inherits a few wars. He's got a war with Russia. He's got a war with Denmark and he's got a war with Poland. And I believe Poland was kind of working with Lithuania, but he had several wars going on. So it's complicated. He shows up at a tricky time.
00:08:11
Speaker
And here's the thing. He didn't have a huge naval force. He's starting from a place of disadvantage. But in any case, in one of the battles in 1625 that his Swedish Navy was involved in, they lost 10 ships. So he was losing a lot of ships. He wasn't, you know, sort of gaining any ground. So he orders some new ships to be built. And maybe fire the, I'd fire the guy that was in charge of the Navy, maybe bring in somebody new.
00:08:40
Speaker
There may have been some turnover at the higher offices like bringing Gustav Junior. I bet there was some nepotism going on too. Yeah, someone you can trust. So anyways, he was very much focused on the naval force because that's when all these parts of the world were being colonized. And the whole way in which that happens is if you have a really strong Navy.
00:09:00
Speaker
is you've got to get there and you've got to conquer. Okay. So- And once you conquer, then you got to have the shipping for the transactions, for the trade, for making the dollars. Big time. It all comes down to the ship. So until the 17th century, early 17th century, the Swedish Navy mainly had smaller ships, kind of a single gun deck, had what they called a 12 pounder, which was the size of the cannon. It's like a 12 pounder.
00:09:28
Speaker
and they, you know, were a little bit cheaper than the bigger ships and they were better for patrol. They also provided a good access point to board other ships. And that was the way in which most naval battles were happening at the time. Really? You jump onto the other guy's ship? Yes, and start just raising health. Wow. Okay, so that's hand-to-hand combat is what we're talking about.
00:09:53
Speaker
Yeah, they emphasize boarding. The style of the ship emphasized boarding in a battle versus staying further away and firing a cannon or whatever. But King Gustaf, Adolph, or whatever you want to refer to him as, the king was very much into artillery. So he saw the potential that these ships could have if they advanced to being more of the sort of gun based with gun platforms.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, talk about your, uh, quote unquote disruptive technology. It's like, wait a minute guys. Why don't I mean, we got this thing that shoots a hole in the ship and none of us even have to climb on board. Maybe try that.
00:10:29
Speaker
You want to be like Viscova, you want to fall in the ocean when you're boarding the ship to fight. I mean, you're going to be all wet. These clothes are very heavy when they're wet, which we'll talk about. Plus it's like woolen. I'm sure the Swedes, it's a lot of woolen stuff. That's not fun. And when you get, you're soaked and it's cold. You want to kick back and light a cannon or you want to board that ship and probably get killed.
00:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, and slip on the freaking railing and bonk your head. How many things could go wrong? Okay, so he's visionary. He sees the direction. He knows where he wants to go. He's also don't forget. He's seeing what the Danes have, right? Like he's thinking of everything. Like he's like, wait a second. Yeah.
00:11:07
Speaker
We are going to need ships built to have more of this, you know, cannery, gun platforms, you know, heavily armed ships. Forget this. Some 12 pounders. We got to move it up. Get some 12 pounders going. Yeah. So he's also like most Kings. And I want it now. I want it yesterday. I want it bigger, better, whatever. So he orders the construction of about 110 foot ship.
00:11:29
Speaker
which at the time was big. It wasn't the largest, but it was big for Sweden and it was going to have a single gun deck. It was going to be much better than what he had had previously. Oh, I like the sound of this. And when you're king, you don't have to like run it through Congress and get, you know, so-and-so's, you know, sign off. You know, it's like, you don't even need like the zoning committee. You're king. You say it, it happens. Yeah.
00:11:51
Speaker
Planning Commission? No, I don't think so. Did you not see the title? It's King. He orders this ship, but at the same time that he sends through the order to make the ship, he finds
Vasa's Instability and Launch
00:12:02
Speaker
out that the Danish were building a ship with two gun decks.
00:12:05
Speaker
So he's like, what? Oh man. Arms race. Exactly. It really played into his ego at the time. So he immediately, okay, this is five months into the whole planning process. He orders Admiral Fleming to up the ante and make it 135 foot ship. Okay. But how many gun decks? Two gun decks. Two. Okay. Cause if he really got crazy, I thought you were going to say, he's like, Oh, they're doing two. You know what? I say we do three.
00:12:33
Speaker
No, he's not like the six minute abs guy, but he's definitely thinking of packing them with big cannons. Okay. You have to also consider that until that time, no one in Sweden had ever built, designed or had anything to do with a ship with two gun ducks. Okay. So that was a huge change from their, in their naval architecture. Like that had not happened at all. I bet they got some great forests there. They got some big straight pines.
00:12:58
Speaker
And if you want to go down that rabbit hole, there is a lot written about the deals that were made to acquire the lumber. Don't you worry, I'll be going down that rabbit hole. So now he orders, you know, these ships with, you know, to be outfitted with much heavier guns. Wait, now is this multiple ships or it's just literally one ship?
00:13:16
Speaker
He does order multiple ships. The ship we're focusing on is called the Vassa, capital V-A-S-A. Now the Vassa was the pride and joy. This was the leading ship. So all the other ships were a little bit smaller, a little different. The Vassa was the king's ship. This is the one that we're going to break the champagne bottle on the hull. We're going to do all that with maybe like a little dog and pony show, some photographs.
00:13:44
Speaker
Okay, so he orders it with 70 to 24 pound guns. Okay, so clearly money was no object. He was opening up the treasury to really load this ship up. That's what he was telling them to do. And he told Captain Fleming that, and because he made this order five months in, they said it was early enough that it won't impact anything. Now, of course, what are they going to say to the king?
00:14:11
Speaker
If you had told me that in April, King Gustav, then maybe I could have done something about it. Why'd you just kill Henry? He just was a carpenter. So anyways, so he is very much focused on the ship. The ship was going to take two years to build. So the Vasa, which was this early two full gun decks, it was built at a time when the theoretical principles of shipbuilding were very poorly understood.
00:14:36
Speaker
So that's a strike against you going in when you've never done
Sinking of the Vasa
00:14:40
Speaker
it. And what you understand is not good. Um, so anyways, the guy that gets to build the ship is this guy on Rick Hybertson. Suffice it to say he's Swedish. He had never built a ship with two Gundex. Perfect. But that's not, that's not a strike on Henrik's record. It sounds like nobody in Sweden had built a boat with two Gundex. So Henrik could be the Michael Jordan of boat builders in Sweden.
00:15:06
Speaker
Yes. And he did his best. The safety margins at the time, as they say, were far below anything that would be acceptable today. Meaning like, okay, it looks like a structure. There was no real testing of any kind. Right. They were also these intentionally high superstructures because they needed to use them as platforms to fire on them. So they're risky styles of ships.
00:15:27
Speaker
In any case, Hybertson dies one year into building this ship. Probably from the stress. It was very stressful. So he died in 1627. And when they look back, the other thing that they recognize is that the plans were undocumented. So there were no detailed specifications. They had five different teams working on the ship and none of them communicated with each other at all. So this was by far one of the biggest projects ever in Sweden.
00:15:54
Speaker
This is the downside of having the king run the show because the plans probably change after each breakfast, you know, each day. There's a new, you know, he sends off a different team like, no, I want it higher. And then who's your number two? Like, how's he?
00:16:10
Speaker
He does okay. He packs the ship with the guns. He has a high stern, which will have the firing platform. He himself has a high stern or the boat? I think he was a stern fellow. I think that was his moniker, if that's the right use of that. Probably a nervous fellow too, because now he's the number one. High strong. So it's like if the Vasa doesn't float or perform correctly, he's the fall guy.
00:16:37
Speaker
Well, or does he just blame it on Heinrich? Good point. That's an easy out. It's like, yeah, you know, I was telling Henrich the whole time, you know, like, why do it that way? But, you know, Henrich, I think we have transcripts of all that. It's uninscribed, but you get the meaning read between the lines. The curse tablet.
00:16:53
Speaker
OK, but anyway, so his number two. So anyways, they build the ship, right? It's got the high platform. It can support all of these absurd number of cannons. And it also is holding about 2000 pounds of gunpowder. Wow. And a thousand shot of various types for the gun. So it's very heavy, very large concentration of material. And you're probably not allowed to smoke a cigarette on that ship.
00:17:16
Speaker
unclear. It is a wood ship. So it was the largest concentration of artillery in a single warship in the Baltic ever in Northern Europe. People didn't see a ship with this much firepower for another like five to 10 years. Must have been impressive to see when they finally finish it. It's the new standard for a battleship. It must have been cool.
00:17:37
Speaker
Incredible. So the last thing I'm going to tell you before we go to break is about the decoration. You know, and this was the custom of all warships, very much decorated with sculptures. Really? And the sculptures were intended to sort of glorify the authority, really to glorify the monarch, to make the king look good. And then also to taunt and intimidate the enemy. The sculptures made up a considerable part of the entire effort and cost of building the ship. Okay, that feels like maybe a
00:18:06
Speaker
Just maybe the priorities are a little out of whack there because just based on the name of our podcast and what we do here, I'm just already feeling like maybe too much effort went into the sculptures and not enough into whatever led to it being on our podcast.
00:18:22
Speaker
Well, it's all about what they value. And for them, the value of this customization, you know, this wasn't like a kit, like something that they ordered through a catalog. So for them, it's not an ACME, it's not a, yeah, Sears Roebuck. Right. But at the same time, I don't just slide casually into some, um, ignorant generalizations about Swedes, but you know, I don't think of them as like an overly decorative, um, or artistic cult. Like they seem like a straightforward, straight ahead kind of people.
00:18:52
Speaker
but clearly I was wrong. Wait until you see what was going on. I thought you were gonna say wait until you see our inbox next week from Swedish people.
00:19:03
Speaker
of creative Swedes. No, but here's
New Sponsor Announcement
00:19:05
Speaker
the thing. They really took it seriously. They had a team of literally six expert sculptors for over two years working on the sculptures that were going to go onto the ship. Okay. So these were like mermaids and wild men and images of the King. And when he was a kid and very ornament, you know, heavy painted in vivid colors, it had a huge monster, like to scare people. I mean, it was insane.
00:19:28
Speaker
I guess we'll have to wait till after the break to learn the fate of the Vasa. Dr. Troyer, this week I could not be more excited that we have a new sponsor to the show. It feels like just a couple episodes ago we were worried, hey we've got two sponsors but it feels like we might lose 50% of our sponsorship. But not only did we not lose Terry but Lizzie, who I know
00:19:50
Speaker
She's taken her lumps this season. A couple times we said why didn't she post this image or why wasn't this link in the show notes or whatever? Yes, I'll be called out when needed. Come to find out while we pride ourselves on research. It sounds like Lizzie did a little bit of research of her own.
00:20:09
Speaker
she got
00:20:27
Speaker
four law firms that were involved in various aspects of that litigation. She sent them the link to the podcast. One of those law firms called back and asked Lizzie, what does it cost to be considered a sponsor of Killer Shipwreck? What's the rate currently? Yeah, Lizzie did all this on her own. She cold called these people. In our three years of podcasting, I would say this is definitely one of my favorite new sponsors. I didn't even know there was a law firm doing this stuff, but you know,
00:20:56
Speaker
Apparently there is. Well, great work, Lizzie. Let's hear from our new sponsor. Welcome.
00:21:02
Speaker
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00:21:30
Speaker
Harmony in Hannerhan. Yeah, it sounds like a great law firm. Yeah. So they must know everything about the little nuances of that part of the law. That's certainly who I'll be calling if any of those weird issues that they mentioned in the clip come up in my life. I don't know what riparian rights are, but
00:21:47
Speaker
You know, it sounds like these guys do. Let's get back to Sweden and let's talk about the captain of the Vasa. His name is Hanson and Admiral Fleming, who's really under the pressure by the King to get this puppy up and running with all these cannons.
00:22:03
Speaker
So they get to, you know, 1628 starting to say like, okay, is this thing ready to go? Or what are we doing? So they're finding that the ship is not entirely stable because they've had to really build it up. I mean, they've had to put a lot of stuff on it and new structures. And like you said, this was the dawn of the battleship era. They didn't really know all the principles of it yet.
00:22:25
Speaker
Admiral Fleming is like pushing Hanson like, all right, let's do a test. Like, let's see how it's going to be at sea. So they do a test. It's called a lurch test. And it's not that guy from the Adams family. This is a lurch test where they put 30 men. Oh, I thought it was like, bring lurch on board because he's pretty heavy. And then like,
00:22:43
Speaker
I probably could eliminate the need for 30 men. Maybe they'd do 25 men. But anyways, they get 30 men that run side to side and they try to kind of rock the ship and make it look. This is some primitive testing, but okay. It is, but it's 1628. They have three rounds of this 30 men running back and forth and they have to stop it because the ship started rocking violently. Oh boy.
00:23:06
Speaker
I thought you were going to say they had to stop it because the guys were just winded. They were like, look, this isn't what we do. We're not sprinters, you know? Good point. I think that they lost some of the guys. But either way, independent of the fatigue of the men, the ship was rocking so violently that they're like, whoa, OK, we got to stabilize the ship. Jeez, that's got to be disappointing. And I wonder, is the king there watching that or is it's just Fleming there? And he's like, OK, nobody tell the king. We'll figure this out. Yes, that's exactly right.
00:23:34
Speaker
The king is often like Poland fighting, like they're just overseeing the war, like he's just like, get that ship ready, we need it. Yeah. How's it going? How did the lurch test go? Oh, it went great. It was amazing. Just a couple retrofits and we're good to go. Well, when they say that the ship had stability issues, they say that Fleming still gave it the go ahead. Yeah. Just make sure during the battle that we never have a situation where 30 crewmen
00:23:57
Speaker
numbers run from one side to the other repeatedly. That's just how we do it. This will be great in a Monty Python movie a couple hundred years from now, but for 300 years from now, but not now. Like now this makes us look silly. But here's the thing. When they look at the three factors of the stability issues, they say, well, one pressure from King Gustav to the King of Poland started a war campaign. So that made it even more, uh, you know, pertinent and three, and this is my personal favorite. Yeah. No one knew what else to do.
00:24:26
Speaker
Those were the reasons that they just kept going. They couldn't figure out how to stabilize the ship. You know, there wasn't any floor space available at that point. It had 120 tons already, which is usually twice what is needed to stabilize a ship. It definitely had stability issues. That's the bottom line. Yeah. And it feels like, I mean, is there anything you can do at that point? You've already built the whole boat, you know?
00:24:47
Speaker
You built it. You can't retrofit. And Gustav is like, dude, we're doing it like the whole country knows about it. So anyways, they get to launch day. It's August 10th, 1628.
Aftermath of the Vasa Sinking
00:24:57
Speaker
They open the gun ports because they're going to fire a salute in Stockholm like as the ship left. Boom, boom. So it's like super, you know, it's a maiden voyage. We're in Stockholm Harbor. It's going to be super great. A lot of people there. Right. Imagine all the little Swedish kids out in the streets like the boys are fascinated. There's the boat out there.
00:25:17
Speaker
It's not just a boat, it's one of the most impressive ships ever built. It's insane. Crazy carvings all around it. Unbelievable. It's loaded with people. It's a very festive day. All the dignitaries are there and the ship leaves the harbor and it goes about 1,400 feet and the wind picks up a little bit. It was so light that the sails were extended by hand. Just one person was fine to fold the sheets out. It wasn't a big deal.
00:25:44
Speaker
So the ship kind of healed, which means kind of toppled on its side a little bit. And then it righted. Everything's fine. Then it got another little gust of wind and it tipped and water filled the ship through the gun portals and it sank in the harbor within 20 minutes.
00:26:00
Speaker
So within 20 minutes of the Vasa's maiden voyage, it sank. Dude, I thought the Titanic would set the record for just malfunction right off the bat. This is insane. This to me is how you get a knife in the back if you're a king. I mean, if I'm the king and I oversaw that, I'd be worried somebody's going to stab me. It was such a disaster. Everyone around the world knew about it. It sank in full view of thousands of people.
00:26:27
Speaker
Unbelievable. It really is like a challenger thing on TV. You know, we were all watching it. Everyone was there. So it also, unfortunately, there were a couple hundred people on board and 50 people died. And mostly it was those that were below deck and they couldn't escape. And unfortunately, some of them were women and children. What were the women and children doing on board the battleship? They were aboard as guests. Oh my God.
00:26:50
Speaker
god just when you thought this story could not get any worse it's like and there were freaking women and children on there this was like a maiden little voyage to show off the boat so they in Sweden you could accompany the crew member this is a total disaster yes does Fleming like tender his resignation immediately or is he just like hanged in the public square immediately like before we get to him
00:27:15
Speaker
The captain who barely survived. This is Hanson. This is Hanson. He was jailed for incompetence immediately. Dude, it's not his fault. Clearly the ship was poorly built. So they had a formal hearing and he and the crew were set free. The charges of incompetence were dropped. But there was a lot of finger pointing. You know, I think ultimately a lot of people blamed the dead guy.
00:27:36
Speaker
Perfect henrick yeah let's blame it on the dead guy when really they should have been the you know the fish the fish rots from the head down so i feel like gusta had an reasonable expectations and you know he got caught up in the you know keeping up with the jones is and he's like we're gonna have the two gun decks.
00:27:56
Speaker
You know, it sounds like an impossible design assignment. It was. And so for 30 years, it just sat there then. And you're like this because I believe in your first ship, you talked about the diving bell. Did they use that? They did. So they used the diving bell, the team of Swedish divers, and they retrieved pretty much all of the cannons. Are you kidding me?
00:28:16
Speaker
Yeah, they actually got them. Now, they couldn't raise the ship because they didn't have the technology to actually do that, but they did get a lot of the heavy guns off of them. And I imagine, I mean, we probably don't have these figures available, but I mean, I imagine in today's dollars, a lot was spent on that ship, so it was a big loss.
00:28:38
Speaker
huge loss and they couldn't believe it, maiden voyage. And just a trauma to the community. It's like, here's this beautiful thing we're all proud of and all our fathers and brothers and uncles and people have worked on this ship and we've all been hearing about it and it's going to make our country strong. And then to just sit there and watch from the shore when it sinks with women and children on it. Horrible.
Rediscovery and Salvaging of the Vasa
00:29:03
Speaker
Really, it reverberated throughout the country. Unfortunately, it's in a pretty busy shipping channel. It got nicked up. Yeah, like people would drop anchor over it. And so like demolish certain parts. That's rough on the decorative carvings when you got an anchor dragging across it. Yes, much, much worse than the water, which was actually pretty good. It was oxygen poor water and it's very cold. And so that was good at preserving the wood and preventing bacteria.
00:29:29
Speaker
worms and things like. And then in 1956, amateur archaeologist found it. I love this. I love the guy that that gets obsessed with it and puts the work in and gets everybody organized.
00:29:44
Speaker
That's exactly what this is. And it was this guy Franz Zahn. He was a Swedish marine technician. So he was very into it, kind of an amateur, as I said, naval archaeologist. So he gets in there and he starts to get proposals for how to get the ship up. And the proposals are hilarious. It's like some say to fill it with ping pong balls, some say to freeze it in a giant ice cube. Yeah. Yeah. That one came from an elementary school, the ping pong balls.
00:30:11
Speaker
And so here's a company that sounds like it's right up your investment alley. It's called the Neptune company. Oh, I did get a little shiver idea. I got a little, a little shiver, a little sort of like a better guy could make a buck, uh, put in a buck. Now you might get two later on from the Neptune company, but okay, go ahead.
00:30:29
Speaker
The Neptune companies in the 50s, they tried to do this method that had been used since the Middle Ages to get sunken ships up. And they spent two years digging tunnels, and they did all these cables. And then in 1959, pumps started to fill these pontoons, and they got the Vasa up a little bit. So they moved it, but they didn't get it all the way up. Finally, two years after that, in 1961,
00:30:53
Speaker
they were able to bring the ship up. And remember when I mentioned that thousands of people saw the ship sink? Here we are 300 plus years later, thousands of people came out, international media. Everyone was there to see when the VASA first appeared from 333 years ago. That's amazing. It was literally material in newspapers all over Europe.
00:31:15
Speaker
Well, I was going to say as a former news reporter myself, I can already tell, I would have been looking around for somebody who traced their heritage back to some connection to that ship, you know, so that you say like so and so who's great, great, great, great, you know, whatever. Incredible.
00:31:32
Speaker
worked on the ship or died on the ship was there at the seafront when they brought it back in. That's pretty cool. Yeah, and they said 95% of the Vasa's wood was intact when they raised it. Once they pumped the water and mud out and they sealed up the gun portals, which is what led all the water in to begin with, it actually floated. So it's eerily intact.
00:31:54
Speaker
So the gun portals was, ooh, that was part of the design flaw also. I mean, it was unstable, but I mean, there's fricking holes that's letting the water in. Right. Well, because the weight put those gun portals too close to the water. Yeah. And then when it tipped even a little bit, it's like started filling up. Right in front of everybody. So they pulled, they bring that thing back in, huh?
00:32:13
Speaker
So they bring it up and they say it really does look like a prop from Pirates of the Caribbean. Wow. It's really incredible. It's incredible. I've never seen anything like it. I'm fighting the temptation to get on my phone right now and look at the images. Okay. Trust me, the images will blow you away. You'll think it's made up. Okay. So I'll do it on my desktop. Yes, it's fantastic.
Vasa as a Cultural Icon
00:32:31
Speaker
Okay. So during the salvage and the excavation, like what are the finds? Yeah. So as morbid as it is, they did find 17 people. Are you kidding me? Skeletons, complete skeletons from 1620. That's amazing.
00:32:43
Speaker
One case included hair, fingernails, and a complete brain. Do we get to see any images of the... I don't believe they have those online, but I could be wrong. I don't know for sure. Because I've told you that that's one of my complaints in the past is I read about shipwrecks and I always want to know bones, any bones, any bodies? Any bones down there. So the Vasa, they had some bodies. What did they say? Were they adults? Were they sailors? Were they women and children?
00:33:08
Speaker
Yeah. They know like pretty much, you know, the age and all that. So they do have some documentation of the 17 people. They also discovered sculptures, 700 sculptures and decorations. And still in reasonably good shape once they restored it. Yes. They could tell that there was still remnants of certain paint and that they were probably very ornately painted. Okay. I take back what I said about the Swedes being more of a straightforward, non decorative people. It sounds like they knocked themselves out on the decorations.
00:33:38
Speaker
When you see this thing, it's not the least bit intimidating. It looks like a ride at Disneyland. They also found, here's my favorite finding, perhaps maybe of any shipwreck so far. They found a backgammon set with dice. Dude, wait till you see the image of the backgammon set. 1628. I have a million questions, but one of the things that occurs to me though is they then apparently
00:34:01
Speaker
pivot and get more organized naveli because by the time that they get in the engagement that you talked about two weeks ago in 1644, the Swedes have more ships than the Danes and the Norwegians do and they're better organized and they're sending a brand or into the Delman harsh. So it feels like maybe from the ashes of the disaster, the Swedes did come out motivated in and get their shit together, basically.
00:34:30
Speaker
very resilient, and you're 100% right. They certainly learned from the Vassa or Wassa, I think is how they pronounce it. But yeah, because you were talking about like, well, you know, this was early days with boat design. Again, you know, these cultures actually, they know boats very well. They've been using them forever, but what they don't know is building like modern battleships. No clue. And that is part of the problem. But I love the fact that someone packed a vacuum inside. How about like cod or something that we can eat?
00:34:58
Speaker
bringing it back in and said, I mean, how about bringing the women and children? That, that sticks out to me. It's like, wait, what? I mean, I know this is the maiden voyage and it's maybe more of a display voyage, but still it's like, you know, that, that just stuck out for me. I just think of it, the battleship, it's got the crew. That's all it's got, you know?
00:35:18
Speaker
so they do actually refer to this thing called the vasa syndrome and it appears in many different like sort of management books and literature and education as an example how not to organize a successful business i think i mentioned the disorganized sort of way in which they went about it.
00:35:33
Speaker
Well, and the pressure coming from the King and the, um, getting hepped up by the, you know, what are our neighbors doing? And yeah, interesting. The Vassa syndrome. So you don't want to fall into the Vassa syndrome, making a big decision at home or, you know, deciding something with the wife. You want to stay away from the Vassa syndrome.
00:35:53
Speaker
also the Manhattan project, which you will call was in World War II, the building of our weapons. Yeah. But did they have some Vasa problems? Well, the engineer, Arthur Squires, he used to talk about the Vasa story as an opening illustration that says of his thesis that governments are usually incompetent managers of technology projects. Oh, I bet he was the annoying dude. He kept bringing up the Vasa all the time. Like, okay, I see this is exactly what the, and they're like, dude,
00:36:20
Speaker
Nobody gives a crap about the Swedish ship from 300 years ago. This is not 1624, Arthur. Put the microfiche away, buddy. Come back to the lab. They opened a museum in Stockholm that was built specifically around the Vasa. This is a treasure.
00:36:37
Speaker
Oh, I would love to go there. It's become what they call the least elusive shipwreck in the world because over 25 million people have already visited since it opened in 19. Oh man. I would, we could do all the sites. We could, you know, we could, we could do that. We could go out to where they're working on the tunnel and, and maybe even if, yeah. And if we're failing adventurous, you know, snorkel in the 11 foot waters,
00:37:03
Speaker
When I say that it's spectacular, you do have to see images of the Vasa. It truly does look like a movie set. And I will also say it. I'm not an expert in any way, shape or form in anything related to stability. But what I will say from just an amateur perspective is it looks top half. Yeah. I wonder if there was, I mean,
00:37:21
Speaker
You know, they got a huge red flag that day when they're sending the 30 sailors back and forth sprinting from one side to the other. And the whole thing
Episode Conclusion
00:37:29
Speaker
is tipping. But my question was, I wonder if there was anything they like, if at that point the tragedy was already sort of ordained, like it was faded, or if there was anything they could have done design wise that late in the game that would have saved it.
00:37:45
Speaker
A lot of the articles do refer to just the woeful disorganized way in which they approach building this ship. Good for the Swedes, though, in not running away from the disaster or hiding their heads in shame over this sort of failure, but instead like bringing it up.
00:38:03
Speaker
putting it in a museum, talking about it. We know they went on to prominence in the Navy, that they ended up being a powerhouse. So that's why I don't feel bad presenting this. This isn't a sort of jab in the rib. There were probably whole generations that watched the Vasa go out that day, and they were like, you know what? I think I'm going to go into farming. I think stay away from the ocean. Terra firma sounds really good. Yeah, we're not really seagoring people, are we? Why don't you grab a pitchfork? Yeah.
00:38:32
Speaker
I don't know. There's so many easy people to blame. I really start with Gustav on this one. I just think it was an impossible, impossible assignment asking too much. Yeah. Too much pressure. Yeah. I feel like both this and the so-called unsinkable Titanic are good lessons in humility. You know, you build this fantastic, impressive, like apparently, you know, impenetrable ship. And then it's like, Oh God.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah, but arguably a bit vain. Like all these sculptures and like all the paintings and the king as a kid. Definitely you should have spent less time on the sculpture and more time on the lurch tests. Maybe do the lurch tests a little earlier in the process. It couldn't stay up. You got men walking side to side and it was about to go under. Yeah, honey, I did this. We did this thing the other day. We did this like lurch test thing. I don't, if I were you guys, I'd leave Neil's in school that day because I don't feel like he should be on the boat with me that day.
00:39:28
Speaker
I wonder if they even started a backgammon game or there wasn't even time to get to the backgammon. No. And they clearly left it behind when they jumped overboard or whatever. Boy, but some of those people couldn't get out. What a sad story. Terrible. The Vasa would be really cool to get to see that museum. I mean, I'll go online and check it out, but to see it in person, that would be incredible. It's incredible. It's incredible.
00:39:51
Speaker
All right, so Doctor, we have to get the show on the road. This was great. You're building up a nice little side area of expertise here with the Scandinavian stuff, and you're getting me interested in that period. And, you know, it sounds like it was just full of geopolitical machinations and strategy. And what are the Danes doing? We got to do this. I wonder what the Norwegians are up to.
00:40:17
Speaker
Do you want to tease? Do you have a sense of what's coming next for your next show? Uh, I have much like you a couple of weeks ago, I have two in the running. And so the less I say the better cause I haven't decided between the two. So I'm not no tease this week. Uh, but I do want to give you two thumbs up or five stars if we were rating it out of five. Oh yeah. We're supposed to say that Lizzie sent me a note to tell people to rate our show.
00:40:46
Speaker
write a review and subscribe. Yeah, we should be doing that. Rate the show, subscribe, share. We will return next week. Sounds good. Great job.