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A Journey of Self-Discovery and Finding Your Voice With Elaine Lin Hering
26 Plays8 months ago
Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with USA Today's bestselling author of Unlearning Silence, Elaine Lin Hering. In this episode, we delve into her groundbreaking book exploring the themes of power and the importance of finding your authentic voice. We also discuss the complexities of identity and how we can break free from the labels that limit us. Don't miss this inspirational episode as we uncover the transformative power of unlearning silence and embracing our individuality.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Have You Eaten?' and Guest Elaine Lynn Herring
00:00:00
Speaker
Nourishing the Mind, Body, and Soul for the Asian Diaspora. Have you eaten? Hi, welcome to Have You Eaten, another episode with me, your host, Ji. And this is a podcast where we bring interesting folks from the Asian Diaspora to have conversations, to regain our narratives,
00:00:22
Speaker
um one conversation at a time. And today I'm really, really excited to have a new friend on Elaine Lynn Herring, who is USA Today's number one bestselling author, Unlearning Silence. And I just can't wait for you guys to meet her and learn more about her book, learn more about her. And yeah, let's just get right into this conversation. Hi Elaine. Hi Chi, so delighted to be here.
00:00:50
Speaker
I'm excited to have
Elaine's Cultural Identity Struggles
00:00:52
Speaker
you here. um So we always start with, how do you identify? I'm gonna take a deep breath with that. that's a It's a trickier question than we might think it to be. And for so long, if you're employed somewhere, it's, you know, I'm this, this, there's my job title at this organization.
00:01:16
Speaker
These days, I am author of Unlearning Silence as you've introduced me. I am a facilitator and I'm a speaker. I identify as Asian American. And I could just leave it at that, but because we're talking about silence, let's also talk from the messy middle of life.
00:01:39
Speaker
For most of my life, I identified as Chinese American, even though I was born in Taipei, Taiwan. My family immigrated to California 10 months after I was born. And so as I would speak and I would teach, I would say, you know, as a Chinese American, this or that, and then I might mention that I was born in Taiwan. And I would have people come up to me to say, look, you're not Chinese American. If you were born in Taiwan, then you are Taiwanese American.
00:02:09
Speaker
So get your act together, essentially. And I went, oh, I don't know what to do with that. Some of it, i was I was born in Taiwan. I grew up in California. I went to what we call Chinese school on the weekends, which maybe is Mandarin language school these days. And the very first lesson in Chinese school was wว sรฌ zลng gลren, was a hรกi wรกi zลng gลren.
00:02:37
Speaker
in Mandarin is I'm a Chinese person. I'm an overseas Chinese person. And you unravel that and you're like, oh, was this all part of propaganda that I would identify as Chinese American rather than Taiwanese American? And so I am still working through all of that. I am lucky that my parents are still alive. So I've had the conversation of how do you identify? But it really gets to I'm not American enough.
00:03:08
Speaker
I'm not Taiwanese enough. I'm not Chinese enough. Sort of what the hell am I? And so I particularly in promoting the book have gotten that question a lot of the, where are you
Reclaiming Asian-American Narratives
00:03:20
Speaker
from? um And I know that question has meaning and baggage and implication in different contexts for so many of us. So I have gotten as far in my own internal negotiation in regaining my narrative in saying, I am Asian-American,
00:03:38
Speaker
born in Taiwan, living in California. Those are all factual statements that I can stand behind, and the rest of it that can feel so politicized, so personal, I'm still working through. And and I'm letting that be enough, because I think for so many of us, we are working through our i own identities, particularly as we think about reclaiming our identities or our narratives around our identity from a place of agency rather than what other people tell us we are or should be. That's way longer than maybe you were bargaining for. but No, that is perfect.
Self-Worth vs. Societal Expectations
00:04:23
Speaker
And, um you you know, something that you said earlier too about
00:04:29
Speaker
your job defining who you are too. um Yeah, I mean, i I'm thinking about how I even introduced you as an author, yeah um you know,
00:04:45
Speaker
Wow. Okay. That just hit on so many, so many things for me. well Just off the bat. I see it like ping ponging in your brain. Yeah. It's ping ponging pretty fast in my brain right now. Um, you know, I first thought about, um, how, you know, what's interesting is no one's asked me how I did. Well, and I've never talked about it. Hello, happy. Are you not?
00:05:11
Speaker
I am, I am. But you know back to what you were saying about the workplace and having that be defining of who you are, for so many years, my self-worth and my value was so tied up to my job.
00:05:30
Speaker
and not who I am and who I am is empathetic and compassionate and kind and kind of a dork and you know out of it and proud of it like I wasn't proud of it before but I sure as hell I am now you know that's who I am I'm dorky I'm kind of nerdy and um And so we don't talk about those types of things, right?
Unlearning Silence: Personal and Professional
00:05:58
Speaker
It's more about what people see on the outside. And yeah, and what's really interesting too, just going into the book a little bit, this unlearning silence, but the fact that we learned silence,
00:06:14
Speaker
And I thought about how in ah kindergarten, I used to get in trouble so much. Like my name was always on the board for talking, like always. And I was always talking back to the teacher, but in a like, what I thought was a funny way, you know, to make people laugh. um I would always talk to my neighbor. I always had something to say. So it's unsurprising that you're now having conversations on a podcast. Yeah.
00:06:41
Speaker
But I learned silence, right? As a little girl, as an Asian American little girl with immigrant parents, I was told, um you know, we're supposed to be seen and not heard, right?
00:06:56
Speaker
yeah um So I'm curious, you know, in the book, if you can, if you, you talk a little bit about that, you talk about the learned silence,
00:07:08
Speaker
And tell us more about that. Tell us where that comes from and like what you've learned around that. You know, our conversation about how you identify about your job titles is actually a perfect entry point into it because we exist in this world in which it seems like we have to fit into a box.
00:07:32
Speaker
And as much as we might say, you know, my job is not my life or my title is not my worth, how often, even from a, you know, registering for a conference, you've got to put your title and your workplace in there. And that's the first thing people see about you. And then the assumptions and judgments that they make about you right away.
00:07:55
Speaker
how much There's not room for a narrative in those boxes, and yet we each need discrete pieces of information to quickly sort of place people. you know I used to be a managing partner. I was the first non-white partner at a global leadership development firm. I could say I was a lecturer on law at Harvard Law School.
00:08:19
Speaker
You know, I have all of these different titles of the past that I could go to and in certain contexts use. And so often when I'm introducing myself, I go back to I'm human.
00:08:32
Speaker
h Because when we look at all these titles, we forget that each of us are human. And so we treat each other like the stereotype, treat each other as our perception of the title. What does that have to do with silence?
Silence in the Workplace: Impact and Misinterpretations
00:08:46
Speaker
You know, there's the meditative silence, the pause between stimulus and response that gets us to more clarity. All of that is good. Deep breaths, yes.
00:08:56
Speaker
And there is silence where you are either told like you were in kindergarten or by your parents or by other people essentially to shut up.
00:09:07
Speaker
that your voice, meaning your thoughts, your actions, your insights are not worthy. They do not matter, whether that's because of your gender or perceived gender or your race or perceived race or any number of other apparent or non-apparent identities.
00:09:27
Speaker
you're somehow less than, you don't matter as much. And particularly as an immigrant, right there's this, how do I assimilate to the country that I am in so I don't stick out more? How many of us have been told by our parents or or even by kids in the lunchroom, like your food is stinky. And so we leave the delicious food with the kimchi that we have or you know the seaweed at home and go with, I don't know, peanut butter and jelly. And what parts ourselves do we silence over time in order to fit in, in order to be accepted? And what do we lose in the process? So that's the silence I'm talking about that, you know, I came to this in part because I was always that kid. And then that professional that was told, speak up.
00:10:22
Speaker
Use your voice, you've got to add value, otherwise why are you in this meeting? And would get the advice, just speak up, like say it, just do it. Or be more as assertive and here's how, essentially fix yourself, you need more courage, you need more confidence. And I thought, yeah okay, that's a that advice isn't really working. B, it feels counter to everything I've been taught. In my culture of origin, to respect my elders meant to keep my mouth shut.
00:10:50
Speaker
right Right, to ask a question is not out of curiosity, is not received as curiosity. It is received as disrespect. as challenge. So how are you asking me to blend these mental models? You're not actually asking me to blend them. You're asking me to replace the things I grew up with with this dominant norm. But in this dominant norm where I'm just told to speak up, you're not acknowledging the ways that you are actually silencing me.
00:11:23
Speaker
that I have to fit into the box that you've given me as the perceived model minority and do the work and have you take credit but not complain in order to then maybe be accepted. And so from the professional aspect, I spent more than a decade teaching skills for negotiating, having difficult conversations, giving and receiving feedback, tools and skills out of the Harvard Negotiation Project that my colleagues created.
00:11:49
Speaker
And a lot of that is useful, but despite paying a lot of money and spending a lot of time, some people still wouldn't negotiate or have the difficult conversations. And so I wondered why. And I landed on silence because if you've been taught to stay silent, you've been rewarded in your role for staying silent because you're not rocking the boat and therefore you're a good team player and easy to work with.
00:12:16
Speaker
All of a sudden you're asked to share, but in the same breath as being asked to share in order to add value, you're told, well, not like that, right? You need to smile more, smile less. Oh, you're too aggressive. You're too assertive. You're combative, whatever it is. And all of those things incline us towards silence in order to preserve the little standing a role that we have.
00:12:39
Speaker
So unlearning silence is, let's have a more intellectually honest conversation about what's actually going on here. Because you can tell people as much as you want to speak up, just say the thing. But if you make it too costly, interpersonally, or career-wise, for people to share, they're not going to. And this positioning of just speak up really benefits from the people who benefit from the status quo.
00:13:08
Speaker
right If I just say, you need to go fix yourself, then maybe I can promote you, go fix yourself, change yourself, then we might hear you. I don't have to own any of my stuff versus,
00:13:22
Speaker
oh, I get defensive when other people share and I might need to learn how to listen. Right? But isn't it interesting though, when people say speak up, but they don't really mean it sometimes, right? It's speak up to say and be who I want you to be. And this is so tricky, right? And I have had the great privilege to work with both populations, the leaders who say, I want to hear, but then their actions are sending a different message to their teams.
00:13:59
Speaker
There's so much talk about psychological safety and there's so many business examples like Boeing of did people speak up before doors started falling off the planes. Those leaders would say we need to hear about all of this and yet what are they doing and what messages and norms are baked into the systems that lead to you had engineers, multiple ones speak up.
00:14:25
Speaker
about these issues. And instead of responding, you re-orged, or you moved them, or you fired them eventually over the span of years. So leaders, and I call them well-intentioned leaders, are in this pickle because people do say, speak up.
00:14:46
Speaker
And maybe in their heart of hearts, they do mean it. And yet how do you get yourself to a point where you're actually creating that environment so that things don't get worse and blow up over time? So there is unlearning silences, both in what ways have I learned silence. And there are things that I can change about experimenting with a range of directness? Or did I even say it out loud? Because there's the illusory truth effect where, you know, we have beef with one of our colleagues. And instead of talking directly with them, we talk with other colleagues of can you believe she did that? Or can you believe he did that? And then we go home to whoever we live with or our friends and we talk about that issue.
00:15:30
Speaker
And it feels like in having had the conversation with so many people that we've actually had the conversation with that colleague. Because the more we repeat something, the more we believe that it is true.
00:15:44
Speaker
But if we really check ourselves, did we actually have that conversation with that person? Right. And there are a whole bunch of reasons why we don't have the conversation with them from the risk to that. If I just have a conversation in my head or with my people, I get to control the narrative. Right. You get to be the villain. I get to be the hero. It's actually safer, not necessarily more beneficial, but safer in the moment to not actually engage with you.
00:16:10
Speaker
And there's good reason for why I might not engage with you in the ways that you silence me, right? The ways that you have shown me or people like me that you don't actually care what I have to say. So unlearning silence is let's own the silence that we've learned. Let's have leaders own the ways that they're silencing the very people they're inviting or ostracizing to speak up. And in what ways is silence actually baked into the systems we're all part of?
00:16:39
Speaker
that we need to actively disrupt, otherwise we perpetuate. So there's a lot of work on every side, but those three populations of self-leader system gets us to a more productive place than just, you know, hey, quiet person, go fix yourself. Right. It's interesting, you know, when people don't talk about things to the actual person like that the example that you were giving. um Some of that could be also the how that person might perceive you after you've voiced whatever it is. All of it. but Which is interesting because like you have a perception of that person already and you're spreading it wherever, whoever will listen to you.
00:17:26
Speaker
It's crazy. um Including, is it worth it to me? hu Is it worth it to me to say something, to work on that relationship, to invest in that relationship? This could be at work or at home, right? How many of us haven't said things to our parents or to our siblings or our elders?
00:17:48
Speaker
in part because that we just don't do that, but everything takes energy and we only have so much bandwidth as human beings. So it does feel like we're picking our battles. Now, the thing that is different is if we knew that that colleague would receive us well, would appreciate us, would say, gee, oh my gosh, thank you so much for raising that.
00:18:12
Speaker
Tell me more, how can I help? What can I change? right to hear us with For us to hear each other with humility and with curiosity would fundamentally change
Curiosity, Hierarchies, and Perspectives
00:18:24
Speaker
whether it's worth it to me.
00:18:26
Speaker
right So often we're bracing for the, oh, you're going to get defensive and then you're going to go tell other people about me, then I'm going to be that troublemaker and not not perceived as a good troublemaker. but But if we were to receive one another, well, it actually would change that calculus, that interaction, that team, that culture, and get us to that place of mutual understanding, of more solid data, understanding what's actually going on, rather than just saying what we think the people above us want us to say, and of course, in personal relationships, to to actual intimacy, to being seen, known, and heard.
00:19:07
Speaker
Right, right. I mean, I think i think to your point, um curiosity is a big important thing, right? There's the fear, I think, that counteracts that curiosity, um that already you've already made up your mind as to what's going to happen. So there's this fear, right? um But if you enter things in with curiosity, then you're not already, you haven't already set the stage to what is because you don't know. Yeah.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah. And who in these work dynamics in particularly, who is asked to be curious? Because I see that as well, right? You see senior leaders saying, y'all downwards need to be curious. You need to exhibit humility. Well, leaders, do you do that as well?
00:19:58
Speaker
because there is a lot that you cannot see and do not know. And so my stance is everyone's perspective is legitimate and limited, limited and legitimate. We need each other. And so often we're hesitant to say something because we fear the rebuttals or we fear that, you know, my senior leader is going to see it differently. Well, one way of owning that is just to say from where I sit, that timeline doesn't make sense.
00:20:28
Speaker
What does it look like from you where you sit? Because maybe it does make sense. Maybe you know something I don't know. Maybe you have access to resources I don't have. But it doesn't discount that from where I sit, from what I can currently see, it doesn't make sense. So can we own our own purview of the world and be curious about others and that that curiosity is a mutual reciprocal curiosity rather than a curiosity that is mandated to the underlings beneath us?
00:20:57
Speaker
I love that because that that actually works so well in personal relationships too because there's there's but baggage, there's history that we may not know about the other person.
Silence as a Survival Tactic for Immigrants
00:21:10
Speaker
So coming at it from that perspective I think is so healthy and could open up so many conversations and doors.
00:21:19
Speaker
One of the things that you mentioned in the book too is how silence can be positive. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, chapter three of the book is titled When Silence Makes Sense. And it is my favorite chapter of the book because it is fundamentally different than anything else out in the market to date.
00:21:46
Speaker
because there's so much of a call to action, right? Silences, violence, silences, complicity. You've got to use your voice, all of these things. And I really wanted to acknowledge that there is utility to silence. That sometimes you are biting your tongue to play the long game. That sometimes actually silences survival.
00:22:10
Speaker
And I remember the first time I wrote about Silence as Survival, I was still in business relationship with some um individuals who are white. And our practice was like, if you don't understand something, just strike it out and then track changes. And, you know, this colleague said, I don't and don't understand what you mean by Silence as Survival.
00:22:33
Speaker
And I remember feeling gaslit because I was like, is not silence a survival with a fundamental experience of most immigrants? You know, quickly texted my, uh, best friend who's Asian American asking that question. And she probably sent back a gift, but you know, there, the reality is for many of our parents or people who entered a country, a dominant norm, we did have to,
00:23:04
Speaker
hide part of ourselves, or not reveal parts of ourselves, or put up with a lot in order to just even be here and not get kicked out. And if that was a strategy, then what do we do with that now? And it begs the question of, does that serve us now? Is that our parents' generation? Is it us? um As well as silence as self-care. Sometimes I, particularly in the personal front, I just don't want to get into it with you.
00:23:34
Speaker
Do I owe you an explanation, particularly when you tear me apart every time?" Pooja Lakshman, a friend of mine, and she and I share the same editor at Penguin, has a line in her book, Real Self Care, that says, boundaries are not co-created. And as the youngest daughter of the family that I'm from, I was like, wait, what?
00:23:56
Speaker
Don't you have to like check in, be like, is it okay that I don't call you back? And of course the answer is no. And then there's all the shame and the guilt versus I may choose to stay silent because it is not healthy for me to engage with you.
00:24:13
Speaker
Now the difference between silence that is additive or strategic, right? Any of these times when you're playing the long game or it's for self-care or survival or self-preservation, the difference between silence that is additive and silence that is oppressive is agency. o Are you choosing silence as a strategic tool?
00:24:35
Speaker
Or does silence feel like the only option to keep your seat at the table, to stay in a relationship, right? If you're in a personal relationship, that is the condition precedent. That's a little bit of my lawyerliness coming in, right? But the requirement in order to stay in this relationship is to keep my mouth shut and not reveal to you who I really am. That's not a healthy relationship. That's not a real friendship where there's acceptance and understanding and being seen.
00:25:05
Speaker
But at work, might I hide one part of myself because it doesn't feel safe or worth it to share? Absolutely. But the difference is agency. Am I choosing or is it the only option? And so I love that this podcast is about reclaiming our narratives and figuring out what that is. Because if we don't have a narrative of our own, other people superimpose theirs on us.
00:25:33
Speaker
right? It's fit into my box for you. And the challenge with that, and I say that as someone who spent most of my life trying to fit into the boxes and doing that particularly well, is that they keep changing the boxes and the goalposts on you. So what fits them? To what fits and serves them. ye And you can never win. So if that is the eventual fact pattern or arc of the storyline, let us own our own narratives, figure out what are we doing here in life? What is meaningful to me? What are my values? How do I want to live? Because we each have one life to live. And if we don't own it, we're just moving through an autopilot for someone else, for someone else's benefit.
00:26:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Can you give us an example of when you've used a silence in your life?
00:26:35
Speaker
I have some professional and personal boundaries that I am maintaining right now.
00:26:43
Speaker
I mentioned that I was, I used to be the managing partner at a global leadership development firm that my time at that firm ended and not in the timing that I would have chosen for myself. you know And I've spent more than a decade, I spent more than a decade with these people and I closed out of a Zoom call. I clicked that red button that says leave more than a year ago and we have not spoken.
00:27:13
Speaker
And that silence is actually healthy for me to not get sucked back into a system that was unhealthy for me. And I still hear my mother's voice in my head of like, don't burn bridges. You never know when you might need them or be the bigger person, right? You need to forgive. And I was like, well, forgive doesn't actually mean let me engage in the same unhealthy patterns and relationships that didn't seem to consider me. One of the sneaky things about silence and learned silence is that we so often stop thinking about our own needs, goals, hopes, and desires. Because we are acculturated, whether it's in a family from a collective culture,
00:28:06
Speaker
or a workplace where shareholders benefit from our denial of our own needs and hopes and well-being, we stop thinking about what do I need?
00:28:18
Speaker
And of course, no one else is thinking about it either, really tending to your own needs. And so we silence the very intuition, the very you know things that our bodies needs, like like even just sleep, right? Let's push through, let's caffeinate. It's so much part of our culture versus what do I actually need and how do we bring that into the conversation, if not the external conversation, at least the internal conversation with ourselves.
00:28:47
Speaker
So, you know, Unlearning Silence has, writing the book has really been a meta journey of me also finding my own voice because I spent so much of my career teaching other people's thoughts and frameworks to the point where I thought that my value came from delivering their ideas and did not think I had thoughts and insights of my own that could be valuable.
Imposter Syndrome and Finding One's Voice
00:29:17
Speaker
oo And how many of us do that, right? You play the role, you show up, you perform to the OKR or the goal or expectation in that framework and we burn ourselves out for what purpose?
00:29:35
Speaker
And let's be clear, I'm all about hard work. And if you're like, I am saving up to buy a house or I'm saving up to do this, or I am making sure my family can stay in this country, I've got to put my kids in, whatever it is, if you are clear about your purpose, that is very different than going through on autopilot because you're living in someone else's expectations.
00:29:58
Speaker
And it's such a funny thing because I talk with colleagues who have known me, who said, we always knew it was you. that you had something to offer. And I was like, I had no idea. I had no idea until I went through the process of writing this book, really finding my own voice to think, what what's missing from the dominant conversation that I think needs to be there? um you know and And there's so much stuff that people call imposter syndrome.
00:30:34
Speaker
that really is imposter treatment, oh right? You don't belong here. Anytime you are less than 15%, your identity, one of your identities is less than 15% of the group, you are inherently othered, right? More likely to be doubted.
00:30:57
Speaker
people are less likely to want to work with you. And what does that, what messages does that send to us? Particularly when, you know, onboarding to an organization is like, let us teach you the ways that things work around here. Right.
00:31:14
Speaker
versus what can you see with fresh eyes that we might not be able to see because we've been so indoctrinated into this culture. And there's such an opportunity for learning there. If we were to ask with humility and with openness, what do you see that doesn't make sense or seems broken? And maybe there's context for it, but maybe it's just, we can't even see how dysfunctional it is because we're so used to it. It's just the air that we've been breathing in the water that we've been drinking.
00:31:48
Speaker
So you know there's it begs the question of if anyone listening is like me and you doubt whether you have a voice, what can you do? Because I will say it's incredibly disorienting.
00:32:04
Speaker
It's incredibly disorienting to wake up multiple decades into your life.
Self-Awareness, Self-Care, and Worth
00:32:09
Speaker
You're like, I don't know who I am. I don't know what voice is. Everyone's saying, use your voice. Do I even have a voice? And then there's shame of, I should be able to know that, but I don't. So what's wrong with me? If you're there, I would invite you to start with two questions, internal questions. So you don't even have to engage other people yet. and One question is just, what do I think?
00:32:36
Speaker
as you're listening to this podcast or sitting in a meeting, what do you think? Not what does your mom want you to think? Not what does your manager want you to think? Not what is the politically correct answer, but what do I think as an actual individual with unique insights and lived experience and perspectives? And the second follow-up question would be, what do I need? Because so often, particularly for women,
00:33:00
Speaker
and people of color, our needs are so, they're not even on the back burner. They're like below the list of things that is. But everybody else first, which is not a bad instinct, and except that you will burn out. And what is left of you? And do people even care that you're burnt out? No, because they'll probably find another person just playing those same roles.
00:33:28
Speaker
to serve their purposes. I think many of us who grew up in collective cultures also, there's this question of, is it selfish to think about myself? Is it selfish to consider my own needs to which I go back to, no, every human being has needs. It doesn't make you needy. It just makes you human.
00:33:48
Speaker
Well, there's that saying, right? You have to put on your own mask before you help others, because if you're drained, there's no room. There's no space for you to help other people. Yeah. And I'm a big double loop learning person, meaning if you don't like the results, some people go back to what are the behaviors to just change your behaviors. Double loop learning says we actually need to go back one more click to what's the mindset that drives the behaviors that then drives the outcomes.
00:34:18
Speaker
So on the mask, put on your own mask piece, do I believe that I am worth it? Am I worth being cared for, particularly when the people around us have treated us for so long as if we don't matter? That's the unlearning, right? It's not just to say put on your mask now, that's a behavioral piece versus, no, I too am a human being, I'm worth it.
00:34:47
Speaker
worth care. I'm worthy of love and care and respect, not because of what I can perform or contribute, but because I am human and I believe in dignity and belonging and justice for every single human being. That's a really different place to drive from than, oh, I got to advocate for myself now because that's what we do in corporate America. Right.
00:35:15
Speaker
Let's go back to what you said a little earlier about strategy. So um what popped into my head when you were talking about using silence strategically, um I wasn't thinking, I mean, I've been out of the corporate world for almost a year now, so um my mind shifts to more on the personal front um and from you know building a business front. but
00:35:44
Speaker
You know, using silence strategically um really kind of shifted my thinking too, because I, you know, I think, like I told you earlier, as a little kid, I used to get in trouble all the time. My name was always on the board for talking and it was just like, I just need to speak up. And um I think as an adult, I gained that voice back with ah with a vengeance at some point. But what I'm learning now is this,
00:36:14
Speaker
using silence strategically, right? If it if it is it if it serves you um in terms of self-care, then it's okay to not say that thing.
00:36:28
Speaker
And at close to 50 years old, I am just learning that where I don't need to voice every little opinion. I don't need to because it's not going to do anything positive for that other person. And at the end of the day, it's not going to be positive for me. um ah Can you give us an example from, you know, your personal life where you've You've used silence strategically. There are so many. And it's also an a acknowledgement that we each are at a different spot in our journey.
Strategic Silence in Relationships
00:37:11
Speaker
A big part of my learning curve, unlike you, because I was the quiet one in class. I never got in trouble. It was model minority myth incarnate.
00:37:25
Speaker
My learning curve was actually experimenting with saying something, with making asks. The first thing that comes to my mind around strategic silence is once you say something, you can't take it back.
00:37:45
Speaker
And certainly in our personal lives. right Do we speak out of anger? Are the words driven in anger or have we thought about it? That's where that silence, the pause between stimulus and response, right someone insults you, what do you do in the moment? and So often staying silent in the moment can feel like weakness because you've got to push back, you've got to fight back, otherwise the comet stands or the jab stands. What do you want to do in that moment?
00:38:16
Speaker
Because there's also what does it look like from the outside that might be perceived as silence, but you're engaging your stakeholders. right Is there someone else who could actually be more effective in getting through to that person than you?
00:38:36
Speaker
in that voice is not just the meat the words we say in a meeting or don't say in a meeting. Voice is how we move through the world. And each of our voices is going to look different. So often it seems like, well, you know, you got to speak up. Just means like go headto head to head, toe to toe with someone else. But that may not make sense. So a lot of times for me, strategic silence is, you know what? What is, given what I know,
00:39:05
Speaker
How likely are they to hear it from me? And if they can't hear it from me based on their own bias, right, which is their business and not necessarily for me to fix, or do I have energy and bandwidth to engage with you today?
00:39:22
Speaker
Do I want to do it in the medium that you are engaging with, meaning real-time conversation? Many of us communicate more effectively by typing than by talking or asynchronously rather than real-time. How can I play to my strengths?
00:39:39
Speaker
So in that moment, if I think I'm just going to add fuel to the fire by calling you out on your BS in this group meeting, and that's going to jeopardize my standing, I may not say anything in that moment, or I may just say, hold on and implement some bystander training strategies of reflection or questioning. But just because I haven't done something in the moment doesn't mean that I don't go back and work behind the scenes.
00:40:06
Speaker
or follow up with that email that says, hey, I was reflecting on yesterday's conversation. Here's what didn't sit well with me and why. Because part of our wiring is we don't all process. Some of us feel tongue tied right in the moment of, ah, that didn't feel right, but I can't.
00:40:24
Speaker
I can't quite figure out what's wrong with it, why it didn't sit well, and what I want to do about it versus 20 minutes after the fact or some breathing room, I sleep on it, I actually have a response. So to me, there's this nuance of perceived silence in the moment versus our relationships and conversations being over a time span. The trick there, however, is to not give ourselves a pass.
00:40:52
Speaker
right If we stay silent in the moment, do we actually do any of the behind the scenes stuff that can play to our voice and um make it easier, more impactful for us to achieve whatever goal we have? do we actually do all of that or do we Is that silence actually just, it was in the moment and forever more? That's the real gut check for each of us.
00:41:18
Speaker
You know what I love that you said earlier is how your voice is also how you show up. It's like action.
Voice Beyond Words: Actions and Presence
00:41:32
Speaker
sort I mean, how many of us know leaders that we've worked for, or people we have engaged with who talk a great game? huh And in our society, we prize people who talk a good game. And the coaching we get is all you quiet, introverted people, shy people, you need to be more like them.
00:41:57
Speaker
versus we're all wired differently. We have different strengths. ah Let's design ways that we can work together that not only respect those differences, that leverage the differences. you know I often take the example of a post-processor, someone who in the moment can't quite figure out what to say, but 20 minutes after the fact, brilliance.
00:42:21
Speaker
huh do you Do we just want the loudest and fastest ideas? Do we just want quick thinking? Or do we also want slow thinking?
00:42:31
Speaker
and and that And be really honest about it. But each of our voices are going to look different. you know I think a lot about artists.
00:42:43
Speaker
because I am not an artist, whether it is painting, whether it is sculpture, whether it is these art installations that bring such beauty and joy and meaning to the world. You know, I can barely do a stick figure. And that is okay. The question is not how can I be all things to all people, but how can I be the best, most effective, impactful version of myself?
00:43:13
Speaker
And apparently, I can write. Again, which I did not know. It was about the final manuscript when I signed off on the copy edits that I read it as a reader, the book, as a reader, and I wrote my editor saying, Meg, I actually think this book is good. like I can write. And she's like, no shit, Sherlock.
00:43:36
Speaker
So there's two things in there, right? One is each of our voices is going to look and sound different. Our skill sets, our gifts are different and that's a good thing. So we can either spend our time trying to be a decent imitation of someone else or an amazing version of ourselves. And that finding our voices, whether you want to call it a unique value proposition, whether you want to call it you know your superpower,
00:44:06
Speaker
It's an iterative process that you cannot do without action and that you cannot do without other people. o And I take my own my own experiences as an example. I did not know that I could write.
00:44:25
Speaker
I didn't necessarily trust that publishing in the world would receive my voice, my writing. I was so trying to follow best practice. Where does best practice come from? Best practice comes from some definition of successful people who have been given the stamp of approval from some other people. And those often come from dominant norms, right? More than 80% of leadership books are written by white men. And so those of us who ah do not identify as white men, we wonder,
00:44:53
Speaker
why isn't this advice working for me? Because it was not necessarily meant for us. It wasn't written with our lived experiences in consideration. And there is a testing it out. And there is someone else saying, wow, that really resonates. That helps us see ourselves more clearly.
00:45:16
Speaker
But we can't do it without taking a step or trying something. right So often we're waiting for the perfect step or the next right step versus just some action, some step will teach us something. We will learn something and get more information, more data.
00:45:34
Speaker
to then inform our next step after that. So it's not, you know, finding and using your voice is not a theoretical exercise. It's also not a let's just talk about it. It is fundamentally a what are we going to do, which is how are we going to lead? How are we going to live? Yeah, it's so holistic. It's not just one thing.
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:45:55
Speaker
and So um where can people find your book?
00:45:59
Speaker
Mmm, wherever books are sold, you know, the book is available in hardback paperback, large print audio, and and I record the audio if you're not sick of the sound of my voice. So fair warning, ebook and currently available also in Spanish and German. The Korean translation is coming later this year. So, um, you know, Amazon Barnes and Noble, Target, Apple,
00:46:28
Speaker
any of the big bookstores or your favorite local independent bookstore. Amazing. I actually listened to your book on audiobook and your voice is not, it's, I love listening to your voice for however many hours. um It was very easy to listen to. And now I'm going through it the second time, um but with a highlighter. and So that's what I typically will do. I'll either read it or listen to it. And then I go through with the highlighter, not all books, just the ones that I want to.
00:46:59
Speaker
now i' I'm honored that I made the cut. And something really special that we're doing for our readers is we're giving away three copies, signed copies. um So you'll get more information on how to um to win one of your copies.
00:47:19
Speaker
And if not, um please do support Elaine and, and listen to her by her book. Um, it is life, life-changing. Um, I thought it was incredible. Um, and it really put in a lot of thought thinking about silence and what it means. Um, like, like I mentioned chapter three was life changing for me. Um,
00:47:46
Speaker
So thank you so much, Elaine, for the gift and for the honor of having you on as a guest. um Thanks for having me. I still have my grandmother's voice speaking to me and in Taiwanese.
00:48:01
Speaker
saying, have you eaten yet? yeah So thank you. Thank you for sharing my story and sharing so many more of our stories so that we can truly own and be inspired by each other.
00:48:18
Speaker
Thank you. Well, that's um the time we have today. And so I want to say thank you to all of you for listening and for watching if you're watching us on YouTube. And until next time, I hope your heart and your belly stay full. Thank you.
00:48:43
Speaker
Hello, happy fam. Thank you so much for joining us today. Make sure to subscribe, like, and hit the notification bell. And until next time, I hope your bellies and your hearts stay full.