Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back to another episode on Coffee and Cases. I'm excited that you're back with me this week or that you stumbled upon Coffee and Cases in your search for a new true crime podcast. Either way, returning listener or new, I'm glad that you're here with me this week.
Speaker: Honestly, Sleuth Hounds, I really don't remember the last time I was here recording an episode for you guys. I know Allison mentioned last week that Anthony and I finally moved into our new house, so I've been using every possible second to unpack boxes, paint, and clean, and I feel like I've really forgotten what day it is.
Speaker: We've been here about two weeks and I finally feel like I can relax a little. We have almost everything unpacked, minus a few boxes in a storage unit, so I'm feeling a little bit better. I finally painted our front door a pretty tillish green color. It was some nasty brown, so we're slowly making this place our home.
Speaker: As Allison mentioned last week, we are closing out on our time alone, thank god, and we will be recording together again as soon as all of her vacations are over, and I can't tell you how excited I am. If you're a brand new listener, Allison is the other half to this show. She and I used to do these episodes together, rotating weeks, telling the stories, or giving feedback.
Speaker: But since COVID -19, we've been practicing social distancing and haven't been able to record together. But thankfully, that time is ending, and I'm beyond excited to start recording with Allison again. So please, sleuth hounds, if there's a case that you've read about, seen on TV, or that you've heard about, pass that along to us.
Speaker: We love when you send in suggestions to us. We love hearing from you guys. Only together can we bring awareness to these cold cases and potentially closure for these families. And what better or more noble way is there than that? As always, thank you for bearing with us and for understanding. We care about you. Stay together, united in the human spirit, even if not physically, and stay safe. Now, onto this week's episode.
Speaker: Some of my favorite memories have been made around my mommy's dining room table. As you all know, I have a huge extended family. My dad is one of six, so I do have a huge family, and I love it. Holidays and birthdays were always so much fun. My cousins and I had a secret spot behind my poppy shed, and we could most likely be found over the hill playing there. When dinner was ready, one of our aunts would open the back door and call for us to come eat.
Speaker: All of us would cram around the bar in Mammy's kitchen because kids were not allowed to eat with the grown -ups at the grown -up table. As we've grown older, our distant family doesn't always travel for holidays now. My poppies passed away, as has my great -grandmother, one of my aunts, my brother, and two other cousins. So our family gatherings seem to be growing smaller. The grown -up table seems emptier now.
Speaker: but you will still find most of my cousins eating around the bar or sitting around mammy's coffee table. There's just something weird about eating at the grown -up table.
Speaker: But even when I was small, after dinner was story time, and we, the kids, were allowed to sit around the dining room table. My puppy would tell stories, most of which my mommy corrected. We would laugh, sometimes cry, but we always had a good time. I know people always say that things change as we get older. We all know it's true. My mommy has since moved in with my aunt. She still visits the house down the hill for my parents, but is slowly giving her things away.
Speaker: When Anthony and I moved into our new house, Mammy gave me her dining room table. That table that was filled with memories. The table where my puppy sat for his last Christmas dinner. The table where we packed care packages for my brother when he was in Iraq. The table that held string beans in the summer and piles of homemade candy in the winter now sits in my dining room.
Speaker: Anthony and I had his family over for his birthday last week and my heart was so happy as I watched everyone eating and laughing around the table. I know my mammy's happy the Herbalove table is still a gathering place. I love that Anthony and I have the opportunity to make more memories with our family around the table that hold so much love.
Speaker: The idea of a tight knit family is something that I hold close to my heart. So when I read stories about a family broken apart, my heart aches for them. Sadly, the tight knit family in our story today was pulled apart when a job offer turned into four missing persons. A father, a mother, and two sons missing. A sister left searching. This is the story of the Jack family.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: Welcome to Coffee and Cases, where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement.
Speaker: so justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because, as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
Speaker: I know if you're a returning listener, you're tired of hearing about our promotion. So I'll quickly mention it for those of you who are new to the show. Allison and I have set a goal to reach 150 ratings on iTunes and we're literally so, so close. We currently have 90 non -ratings. Y 'all, 90 non -ratings.
Speaker: we're getting new written reviews all the time which we love i literally check itunes every single day for new reviews so for those of you who've taken a few seconds out of your day to give us a review thank you if you haven't gotten a chance to give us a review yet it's
Speaker: you that we're talking to. Please leave us a 5 star review if you like our episode. I ask that you take a second at the end of the show today to rate us. You really do make our days brighter whenever we see those new reviews on there. When we get to 150 ratings, and we can do that by next week, right? I believe in you guys. Allison and I will give you a bonus episode and we will do it together. So for real this time, let's get on to the episode.
Speaker: Coming from Eastern Kentucky, I know something about growing up surrounded by poverty. Where I come from, cold runs deep, and so does generational poverty. It takes a lot to escape generational poverty, and if you haven't seen it or struggled through it, you won't understand, but I want to try my best to explain it to you. Growing up, I didn't realize my family was poor. Did I know my house was different from my friends' homes? Yes.
Speaker: But did I attribute that to being poor? No. It wasn't until many years later I realized how much my mom struggled to provide for us. My parents did not go to college. My mom was a school cafeteria worker and my dad was in and out of construction work. My brother joined the army when I was in fourth grade to escape the destiny of either struggling for work or ending up on drugs. School wasn't his thing.
Speaker: I was the academically minded one out of the two of us. From the time I can remember, my mom talked to me about the importance of an education. I valued learning. As I got older and realized that my life was different from my friends, that none of them had leaky roofs and that they all had nice floors to walk on, not crumbling particle board,
Speaker: I vowed to never let my kids miss out on the opportunities I did. I vowed to go to college and provide them with everything my mom wished she could have given me and my brother. I was smart. I had a 4 .0 all through school. I did well on the ACT, but didn't do well enough to earn a full ride to any college. When the time came to pick a college, no one was there to really guide me or talk to me about what the best options were for me.
Speaker: My high school counselor was a joke. My teachers, who I know knew I was poor, really didn't talk to me about the difference between a private school or a public one. So I made the choice to stay close to home and attend a private university. When my friends talked about their parents covering what their scholarships didn't, I knew that wasn't an option for me. Thus began my student loan journey.
Speaker: One I'm still struggling to overcome and I graduated college in 2013. That's only a small part of what generational poverty looks like. So while my husband, for example, was able to escape college debt free, I graduated from college without a job and already thousands of dollars in debt.
Speaker: It was like I couldn't get ahead. And that's the story of so many from Eastern Kentucky. We battle a constant war as we try to escape poverty. And the same can be said for the family in our story today. Ronald Jack and his wife Doreen were searching for a way of escaping poverty so they could provide a better life for their two children, nine -year -old Russell and four -year -old Ryan.
Speaker: The family lived in Prince George, British Columbia, and like many aboriginals at the time, were unemployed and poor. I often laugh at the meme that asks what the stupidest thing was you ever did for money, and the person responds with something like, took out money to get a job, hinting at student loan debt. But seriously.
Speaker: Think of all the crazy things we do for money. Some people literally kill for money. Having no money makes us feel vulnerable. We know that money is literally our lifeline. Sadly for the Jack family, they lived along an extremely dangerous portion of road known as the Highway of Tears. On this highway, many met their deaths as they tried to escape unemployment and poverty.
Speaker: According to the story of highway 16 of the telepoverty, vulnerability, and violence, yet surprisingly little action, quote, poverty breeds a form of vulnerability, said Wally Opel, who chaired BC's public inquiry on missing women and traveled the highway of tears as part of his work. There's no evidence that says that one thing leads to another, but I think our common sense tells us that people there
Speaker: living in that area have been subjected to an inordinate amount of violence. There's one common factor. It comes back to poverty and vulnerability. Still in that article, it says, the 2011 National Household Survey found the unemployment rate in the Prince Rupert area was 14 .6 % overall. For Aboriginals, however, it was 24 .4%.
Speaker: The national unemployment rate at that time was only 7 .8%. Aboriginal unemployment was higher than overall unemployment in each community along the Highway of Tears. 21 .7 % to 7 .8%, 13 .2 % compared to 7 .8%, 20 .6 % to 9 .9 % in the Prince George area and so on. Unemployment has remained higher in the North than other sections of the province in subsequent years.
Speaker: According to the labor force numbers released by Statistics Canada in April.
Speaker: I think back to my childhood and how hard it must have been for my parents. My mom mentioned to me several years ago that she often only had $50 every two weeks to feed our family. When she was offered a job at my elementary school, she took it to provide a better life for my brother and for me. When Ronald and Doreen first entered first leader pub on August 2nd, 1989, they never would have dreamed that they would get a job offer that would change their lives forever.
Speaker: As the couple sat together, enjoying their evening, they were approached by a man. The trio sat at the pub for some time, talking. I'm sure that they made small talk with this man. Their living situation must have come up. How they struggled to make ends meet, how they were barely able to provide for their families. So when this man offered them a job at a logging camp, they jumped at the opportunity.
Speaker: I don't know if you guys are like me but I really didn't know like what a logging camp was so I looked it up online and it's like a place along the river that they would store logs in water until they were ready to be shipped and if we have any Canadian listeners and that's wrong
Speaker: you can let us know because i'm not really sure and that was just a really really quick google search on my end but anyway not only would they be making money they would also be getting free child care for their kids and it sounded too good to be true and maybe it was
Speaker: So, Sleuth Allens, here's the first problem that we have. The Jack family does not own a car, so there's no way for them to get to this logging camp. But never fear, Mystery Man has a car that all four of them can fit in, and he will gladly take them to the camp, and joyously they agree.
Speaker: Maybe it's the worrier in me but I would never ever at this stage of my life get into the car with a stranger. I however did that one time in college. Me and a group of my friends decided that it would be really fun to walk like the three miles from her house to Walmart to get sidewalk chalk because we wanted to draw with sidewalk chalk. And by the time we got to Walmart because you know it was three miles
Speaker: it was growing dark and when we left Walmart it was raining and we didn't have umbrellas and it was dark and we were walking back along the highway that did not have a sidewalk you know looking back on this really stupid
Speaker: Anyway, and this lady pulled over and she was like, hey, you guys can jump in and I'll give you a ride and we were like, nah, that's fine. And then she was like, no, I'm not being creepy. Like this happened to me a couple of weeks ago and I know how bad it sucks. So why don't you all hop in and I'll just give you a ride. So many of my three friends got in the car with her, stranger, somebody we didn't know, literally never met this lady in my life.
Speaker: But, you know, she took us to our friend's house and we were fine. So maybe she was like a little guardian angel. But looking back on that night, I was pretty stupid. I would never do that again. But the Jack family were desperate, so they agreed to get to the job.
Speaker: and they get into the stranger's car as he promises to take them back home so they can pack. We know that Ronald and Doreen make it home because according to the article of tragic and haunting memory BC family has been missing for 30 years quote at 11 16 Ronnie
Speaker: who was also Ronald, called his brother and Southbank to tell him about his new job and around two hours later he called his parents in Burns Lake. He tells them that they will be gone for around 10 days and that they should be home in time for their oldest son to start school. Okay, side note, I should also tell you guys that, you know, I mentioned that we're in our new house and we are, but this house has
Speaker: like the laminate planks or whatever in the hallway. And so you are likely to hear lots of clicking because my dog is very sad that I will not let him in here with me. And as you all know from our Instagram, he is literally attached to me. So if you hear lots of little clicking sounds, that's his nails against our floor as he paces in front of the door where I'm recording.
Speaker: So those 10 days come and go, and Father Ronald, Mother Doreen, and sons Russell and Ryan are never heard from. And finally, they are reported missing on August 25, 1989. Now, per usual, several search parties go out, but they all come back empty -handed.
Speaker: The police even get special permission from local tribes to search the land where the jacks may be, though searches also turn up nothing. According to police, thousands of tips came in, and all of those led to dead ends. It's interesting to note, though, that when the police spoke with logging camps around the area, none of them were hiring at the time. Which leads me to believe that obviously something fishy has happened to the Jack family.
Speaker: So one major breakthrough in the case came several, several years later in 1996, when someone called in an anonymous tip that the family had been killed and buried on a ranch. The voice on the line was very muddled and hard to hear. And even after like cleaning up the audio and the police doing all the special stuff that they can do, they were unable to hear exactly what the ranch name was or where exactly it was located.
Speaker: The police thought that the person said that the family was buried at the south end of Gordie's Ranch and the police searched that area and they didn't find any trace of the missing family. The caller's phone number was traced to the Stoning Creek area of British Columbia.
Speaker: Apparently there was a house party the night that that call was made and some people will say that that was why it was hard to hear what the caller was saying, but police interviewed partygoers and no more leads came about and no one could identify or explain the person that made the phone call. So who could have possibly harmed this sweet young family?
Speaker: Well, automatically, I think all of our thoughts are going to this man that we know absolutely nothing about that's at the bar. Like, it's just all too weird. Like, who was he? Was he the real deal? Was he a creeper? Like, we don't really know. In an article written by Elle Hall called Missing in Prince George, the Jack Family, he states that an eyewitness described the man Ronald Mitt at the pub in Prince George as a tall Caucasian man in his mid -30s to early 40s.
Speaker: The man was somewhere between six and six and a half feet tall and was described as quote hefty but not fat and he is estimated to be weighing around 250 to 275 pounds so he is a pretty big guy. Ronald was only about five six and 150 pounds and Doreen was even smaller at five two and about 110 pounds so this guy would have literally towered over Ronald.
Speaker: the man ronald matt had red hair and a mustache a beard and wore blue jeans with a red plaid shirt and a baseball cap he had on work boots and a nylon jacket it has been suggested that this description bears a resemblance to david picton brother of the infamous pig farmer serial killer robert willie picton and so i'm really going to be honest with you guys while alison and i do know a lot of
Speaker: information about like serial killers and cult cases and all of that stuff. I did not know who Willie Picton was and so of course I googled him. And here is what Wikipedia says about the two of them. So Robert William Picton and his brother David, so the possible dude at the bar, owned a farm in the British Columbia that was just east of Vancouver.
Speaker: So a lot of people describe this farm as a creepy looking place and described William or Willie picked in as a pretty quiet guy and that he could sometimes be kind of bizarre.
Speaker: but never really was convicted of any type of substance abuse or anything like that. The Picton brothers began to neglect the farm operations, and then they soon registered for a nonprofit charity called the Piggy Palace Good Times Society with the Canadian government in 1996, claiming that they organized and managed special events, functions, dances, shows, and all of that type of thing.
Speaker: These events apparently included raves and wild parties featuring Vancouver sex workers and gatherings and a converted slaughterhouse on the farm. These events attracted as many as 2 ,000 people and even members of Hell's Angels were known to frequent the farm. So really kind of weird, just like different stuff going on here. That's really weird that you would register as a nonprofit and then throw wild sex raves, but you know.
Speaker: Later, Willie would be sentenced to life in prison for several murders. In fact, he would tell an undercover police officer who was pretending to be like his cellmate that he killed over 40 people. While his brother David, so possible creepy guy at the bar, denies having any knowledge of his brother's murdering spree, I really don't see how that's possible. I mean, they threw all of these wild parties together. They apparently were pretty close. So in my mind, I'm thinking, could it be that the Jack family was one of Willie's victims?
Speaker: Another possible theory behind the long disappearance of the Jack family is that they just kind of ran off to start a new life. I really think that all of us at times wish that we could run away from the problems that we're facing. I know that there are some days that I just wish Anthony and I could run away and leave everything behind. Perhaps the issues facing the Jack family were more than they let on.
Speaker: possibly according to that same article by hall one thing to consider is that maybe they really did run off and just kind of leave everything behind in he says that his gut feeling is that's very unlikely um from everything that i've read and then hall agrees with that
Speaker: um they were a close tight -knit family and i just really have trouble believing that they would just disappear and kind of fall off the face of the earth because i don't think that they would do that to their family. Doreen's sister Marlene has been tirelessly searching for her family since 1989.
Speaker: One final theory about the Jack family is that they may have come into contact with and killed by Bobby Fowler. And if you don't know who that is, I'm gonna tell you a little bit about him. So according to Murderpedia, which is a really neat website, Fowler was a construction worker who was known to travel extensively across North America. So he spent a lot of time in places like the British Columbia,
Speaker: Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, Texas, Oregon, South Carolina, Arizona, Tennessee, and Washington State. During his travels, he developed an extensive criminal record and is known to have committed several violent crimes. He was an alcoholic, he used methamphetamine,
Speaker: I mean he had attempted murder, sexual assault, firearm offenses, all of this on his record. In 1969 he was charged with murdering a man and woman in Texas but was only convicted of discharging a firearm within the city limits which
Speaker: We won't even get into that, but I'm sure you can guess my opinion on that. And if you heard that lovely sound, that's my dog letting my husband know he's out of water. Fowler also spent time in a Tennessee prison for sexual assault and attempted murder because in the words of the investigator, he quote, tied a woman up, beat the H -E -L -L out of her with her own belt, covered her and left her to die, end quote.
Speaker: He liked to travel far and wide in a beat -up car, frequently picked up hitchhikers, and spent time in bars and motels. Fowler believed that women who came into contact with him through hitchhiking in bars wanted to be sexually assaulted.
Speaker: Many victims of Fowler met their demise on the Highway of Tears, which we know the Jax would have been traveling to the job that they were offered. So I feel like a lot of the stuff with Fowler kind of fits with this, like the British Columbia part, the Highway of Tears, preying on people that are in bars and things like that. It's a little different that it's a whole family and not just women. Fowler also does not really match the description of the guy that was in the bar.
Speaker: Doreen's sister Marlene feels that Fowler is to blame for the disappearance of her family but she still holds on to hope that someone will come forward with information that will crack the case open. I'm gonna post pictures on Facebook for you guys to kind of see and you can always give us your input and your feedback because we love that but I mean I want to hope that the dude at the bar was nice and really offered them a job you know and maybe just something happened along the way
Speaker: But I kind of feel like that person might hold a lot of answers to this case. Marlene says, quote, I want to thank everyone who helped with the search for their support. Even though there's nothing found, I would like to ask from the bottom of my heart that everyone with information come forward to police. Please help bring our family home.
Speaker: I know what it's like to say goodbye to a family member before you're ready. In fact, I know what it's like to say goodbye to a sibling before it's time. I know the desperation you feel when you want to call them and you can't. I know the empty feeling you carry and you just can't shake it.
Speaker: My heart hurts for Marlene. I know she wants more than anything to have answers. So maybe you hold the answers needed to break this case open. If you have any information on this case, please contact the Prince George RCMP at 250 -561 -561.
Speaker: or to remain anonymous, you can always call Crime Stoppers at 1 -800 -222 -8477.
Speaker: Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at casescoffee, on Instagram, at coffee cases podcast, or you can always email us suggestions to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail .com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon.
Speaker: Stay together. Stay safe. We'll see you next week.
