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1. Revealing the Struggle Between Masculinity and Codependency - Ric Taylor, Therapist
8 Plays1 month ago
Rick Taylor is a therapist with a background in IT who transitioned into therapy in 2013. He specializes in working with men and high-conflict couples. Rick also has experience in men’s group organizations like the Mankind Project. His unique approach to therapy focuses on goal-oriented, action-driven methods tailored to men, rather than traditional emotion-centered techniques.
Topics covered:
- Why men struggle in therapy
- Masculine vs Feminine Dynamics
- Therapy for Men
- Resource Scarcity Vs Abundance
- High Conflict Couples
- Codependency
- Nice Guy Syndrome
- Men's competency
Timestamps
00:00:17 - Where masculine energy thrives
00:01:25 - Primary clients and specialty
00:02:47 - Why men avoid therapy
00:02:54 - Starting career with men
00:05:18 - Therapy approach for men
00:06:14 - Do men open up later?
00:07:19 - Healthy view on competition
00:10:42 - Masculine energy without scarcity
00:16:28 - Patterns in couples therapy
00:18:05 - Tips for switching roles
00:24:31 - Hypermasculinity
00:28:33 - Origin of Codependency
00:35:39 - Transactions in Relationship
00:40:20 - Codependency
00:46:54 - Little Secret in Conflict Style
00:48:43 - Chemistry between Men
00:57:06 - Gaining Trust in Men
Get in touch with Ric Taylor:
https://touchbasecounseling.com/
Get in touch with Dallas Bluth:
dallas@blackboxdating.com
blackboxdating.com
Recommended
Transcript
Masculine Energy in Resource-Rich Environments
00:00:00
Speaker
If you are in an environment where the resources are unlimited, I believe femininity will naturally take over and guide the masculine. And right.
00:00:11
Speaker
So in a resource rich environment, you know, where where there isn't scarcity, where do you see masculine energy thriving the most? What do we have to do in that environment? Yeah.
00:00:22
Speaker
Wow. I'm just, I'm,
00:00:29
Speaker
for coming on.
Rick Taylor's Background in Therapy
00:00:30
Speaker
um Really appreciate you taking the time out here on a Monday morning to tell us a a little a little bit about your work with men. if you could start off, could you give us sort of an intro of um your background, what you do professionally, how it ties into men and specifically dating and relationships that they have with women?
00:00:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm Rick Taylor. I've had a therapy practice since 2013. Originally, i worked mostly with men. But I work with adults and couples.
00:01:01
Speaker
ah And before that, I had a 20 year career working my way up in IT t and got into leadership and all the the drama that comes with that. And so I went back to school, got a graduate degree and then opened up my practice.
00:01:16
Speaker
Yeah. so Yeah. So how long how long have you been a practicing therapist
Approach to High-Conflict Relationships
00:01:21
Speaker
now? How many yeah twelve years? 12 years. 12 years. Gotcha. And who do you work with primarily? um Men, and women, couples, people with, ah you know, um early childhood trauma, addiction issues. What's sort of your specialty? Yeah.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, I started out working only with men at the time. There wasn't a lot of therapy specifically for men and it is different. And then, uh, a lot of guys started going to school and, and starting their practice. So, so I've shifted mostly to working. Uh, I have a niche where i work with high conflict couples where the conflict just doesn't go anywhere and they can barely talk to each other.
00:01:59
Speaker
and Or they've divorced and there's still high conflict going on. I see a fair amount of ah narcissism and and borderline disorders in those situations.
00:02:13
Speaker
Okay. That's some tricky stuff. ah But along the way, I've... ah Yeah, I've worked with, I've had little niches. yeah and And what's interesting, I'll throw this out.
00:02:25
Speaker
ah In therapy, the money in therapy is in couples, addiction, kids, and and and couples, did I say couples?
00:02:35
Speaker
yeah Anyway, <unk>s there's some niches in there, and I'm barely scratching the couples niche. so Okay. It's not in working with men. I'll say it that way. Okay.
00:02:46
Speaker
So why why is that? are Are men less drawn to therapy in ah you know in today's version of
Nonprofit Men's Groups and Therapy for Men
00:02:53
Speaker
that? Yeah. um you You said you started by working with men. Was there was there a need that needed to be filled and that allowed you to build a career? How how did that kind of play out?
00:03:03
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. i've I've been involved with nonprofits ah before I started the therapy for like 20 years. One of them is called Mankind Project, but also other other types of group organizations that were just for men.
00:03:15
Speaker
Leadership, that kind of thing. And then when I had to go to therapy for myself, ah for couples therapy, I've been through a divorce. um I hated it. I hated therapy.
00:03:27
Speaker
And it wasn't for me. It was like, and the the therapist was a woman and she aligned with my wife at the time. And ah come to find out that's actually really, really common.
00:03:41
Speaker
And so I specialized in working with men in the beginning. yeah So um I'm sure a lot of guys listening to this podcast, that's they they can they've been dragged to a couples therapy
Balancing Masculine and Feminine Approaches in Therapy
00:03:52
Speaker
session.
00:03:52
Speaker
I know I've been to a fair amount. And yeah in my experience, every couples therapy session I've been to has been wildly different. yeah they None of them look the same. Yeah.
00:04:03
Speaker
um Luckily, in my experience, I haven't felt that ah the person i was working with sided with anyone too much. But I was actually speaking with a woman last night when I was out with some friends and she was talking about an experience. Her husband was struggling to feel hurt. He felt ganged up on yeah actually sort of in that. um And you're saying that's fairly common for really common. Yeah. it common Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:27
Speaker
um You know, we can get into it. i will say that the masculine and the feminine approach to solving problems is very, very different. Yeah. And I think that's the crux of the issue.
00:04:41
Speaker
and And because I'm masculine or a woman is more feminine, usually they're going to believe that that's a better approach. And their approach is better.
00:04:52
Speaker
My approach is better. And a therapist who's done their work or anybody, any any facilitator or coach, if they've done their work, they can appreciate both sides and play to both sides.
00:05:06
Speaker
Yeah. And not just not just resonate more naturally with one and sort of leave the other one feeling on the outside a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So you have a different approach in working with men in therapy? Do you have different techniques? Do you go about it differently?
00:05:21
Speaker
Yeah.
Masculine Strategies in Therapy
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So I like to think of it like two guys are meeting on a golf course and they're going to talk about the game. And when they do that, they're usually shoulder to shoulder looking down the fairway. And it's like, here we are. It's 300 yards that way. That's where the ball is going to go.
00:05:37
Speaker
It's a very masculine approach of movement, direction for an outcome. And so in therapy, I like to to work that way. I like to have, here's what we're going to work on. here's And here's why we're trying to get to this outcome.
00:05:52
Speaker
And the shoulder to shoulder part when I'm working is I use the whiteboard a lot. ah So we're looking at something together instead of a more feminine approach, which is eye to eye and talking about feelings.
00:06:07
Speaker
Yeah. Surprisingly guys are not really up for that. Right. Well, maybe ah do they, do they get there eventually? Do the feelings come out? Just it's like in a different order, you know? Yeah.
00:06:19
Speaker
Yeah. Masculinity naturally is, is oriented towards competing. And, uh, Or or we've we've been programmed. A lot of men have been programmed to just immediately, if there's another man in proximity, okay, what do I have to do to compete with this guy?
00:06:35
Speaker
And so there's, hell no, I'm not going to talk about my feelings and be vulnerable. Yeah. Well, I think that comes back to the idea of competency.
Competence, Achievement, and Leadership in Masculinity
00:06:45
Speaker
you know yes As a man, feeling competent is a lot of what I'm bringing to the table. you know And you know fitness, money, all those types of things, those are just those are just outcomes of a competent individual you know that has discipline, that that has self-awareness.
00:07:01
Speaker
um and And I think the competition that we feel with other guys, well, we don't want to just lay down our competency and accept another man's because that's sort of giving away our... um and Yeah. well Well, our goods that we've worked towards getting.
00:07:15
Speaker
Right. is Does that sound um healthy to you? Like a healthy sort of maybe um and motivational background to that kind to the competition that you're seeing? Yeah.
00:07:26
Speaker
i Most guys have, ah by the time you get to about 30, we've had enough competition in life that we have found our place and how we want to handle ah ah the competency of other men.
00:07:40
Speaker
and competing with them. Work, if you just think about the the structure of workplace, it's a hierarchy. So the higher up you go, the more competitive it is. And same with same with sports, same with school.
00:07:53
Speaker
ah And so so it's a very masculine way to think. And if you think about it, if I'm... Being masculine, I'm going to have my own outcome that I want, and I believe I know how to get there. And another guy comes along and says, no, no, no, you need to go this way.
00:08:09
Speaker
So now we're going to compete ah in this competition of ideas. Mm-hmm. And so in therapy, I don't even bother with that. let's let's let's build Let's build some trust by talking about common outcomes you know for you.
Adapting Masculinity in Abundant Environments
00:08:24
Speaker
and And so that that's the shoulder to shoulder facing down the fairway together right rather than sort of eye to eye and butting heads yeah in in whose idea is better.
00:08:36
Speaker
Right, right, right, right. Yeah, there's there's some really cool stuff about all that, right? Just that right there, like in ah and in you a company, because I ah i was in startups. It was very ah kind of militaristic and and and macho, a lot of that going on. And and there would always be a PowerPoint up on a ah screen somewhere and people talking.
00:08:58
Speaker
But then when the lights came on and it became personal eye to eye, you could really tell the difference in who's the leader and who are the followers. yeah and no so So as just a side note, so yeah know so the the the way you're describing this sounds like what a lot of us go through, all humans, men and women go through.
00:09:18
Speaker
yeah um And you're just what you're describing matches the structure, you know, socially in the workplace, in the school, you know, and all these things. So this really does speak to what a lot of women are talking about where they, they you know, they felt like it's a man's world or a man's game.
00:09:35
Speaker
yeah And, you know, because... you know, women, we're saying this is the way guys relate. Well, a woman in that situation is maybe not going to feel ah like she gets the game.
00:09:46
Speaker
You know, she's she's playing a different game. right But if that's the game that establishes who's the boss and who's the employee, yeah that would feel very unfair, right? Yes. Yes. Especially if it's not your natural style.
00:09:59
Speaker
And so we, I don't know if you want to get into this. This is a ah rabbit hole of, you So that form of masculinity being the leader of the two works perfectly.
00:10:12
Speaker
When resources are limited, ah money, time, ah effort, food, water, clothing, shelter, when when we grow up without resources, we have to compete for them.
00:10:24
Speaker
And masculinity does tend to be more competitive than femininity. And so it takes the lead. If you are in an environment where the resources are unlimited, I believe femininity will naturally take over and guide the masculine.
00:10:42
Speaker
and and at at best the two can work together as they move in a direction they they rely on each other and so this So this makes me wonder, okay and how well can a masculine energy thrive in a resource-rich environment like that?
00:11:01
Speaker
Because, right i mean, I've at least experienced that without challenge, without adversity, and you know and healthy competition, without that, yeah um the best version of myself simply cannot come out.
Masculine and Feminine Energies in Collaboration
00:11:13
Speaker
um you know When I'm chilled, relaxed, sitting on the couch and I've got unlimited internet, unlimited pizza and potato chips, and unlimited beer, yeah that is not going to be you know that's not going to ignite the fire in me that is what I consider to be the sexiest, most attractive man you know inside of me. and And I'm not going to feel healthy you know yeah in my masculine energy.
00:11:35
Speaker
right So in a resource rich environment you know where where there isn't scarcity, Where do you see masculine energy thriving the most? What do we have to do in that environment?
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. i'm um Because we're headed there. that's That is the question of the era because we're getting ready to have unlimited energy sources. I don't know, two years, five years, maybe.
00:11:58
Speaker
We'll have ah an energy source in our backyard that all of a sudden... We got to answer this question. um So I still believe that masculinity ah still needs to be there and it still needs to be the guiding between the two, feminine and masculine. I still believe masculine needs to be the direction oriented of the two because that's what it is. It is direction oriented.
00:12:21
Speaker
It doesn't need to be hyper masculine. And that's the difference. Hyper masculinity is something you need in a foxhole. It's when you're on the battlefield. It's when you're in crisis, when the hurricane's coming, that's when you need hyper masculinity. We got to get this done. We got to do this and we got to get done here and not a whole lot of room for feeling.
00:12:40
Speaker
Yep. And so ah I think in a, in an environment where the resources are plentiful, ah we still need direction, especially in our relationships. Yeah.
00:12:55
Speaker
So what's interesting is when this when the resources are scarce, the direction is kind of defined for us. We know we need water because we we need that to survive, or we know we need to to build this wall and protect us from the neighboring tribes that's going to come and attack us.
00:13:12
Speaker
yeah the The direction is set by survival, really, yes when resources are finite. But when survival is no longer on the line, when resources are plentiful, right is that you know that's those were extrinsic directions and goals that were set for us.
00:13:28
Speaker
is it Is it your feeling that these now need to become even more intrinsic goals that we set for ourselves in order for that to come out? Yeah. What do you want your life to look like?
00:13:39
Speaker
you How many kids do you want to have? What kind of parent do you want to be? That kind of stuff. Yeah. yeah So the the outcomes are still there. the the destination, it's all still there. It's it's just not as critical.
Transitioning from Work to Home Roles
00:13:52
Speaker
And so that allows both masculine and feminine to work together better. And I should say right here, ah there's a lot of men. I tend to believe this is not clinical, but I tend to believe that we both carry masculine and feminine.
00:14:09
Speaker
100%. Yeah. Men carry the majority is mostly masculine. Women are mostly feminine. but And we tend to track attract people who are our equal in opposite, if that makes sense. i'm a attract I have this much masculinity.
00:14:27
Speaker
I want a woman with this much femininity. Right. so if i'm So if I'm a 70% masculine guy, 30% feminine man, yeah I'm going to more or less attract a 30% masculine woman and 70% feminine woman. Right. that Yeah. And is that is that maybe why we see you know the the super jacked, toxic alpha male who's like, I'm all man, 95%, 99% masculine.
00:14:51
Speaker
yeah right And the like the the very, very, very feminine woman, yes you is they tend to like, and then you have this huge football player and this tiny little girl, you know, like on his arm.
00:15:01
Speaker
yeah It's almost comical to see this matching up. yeah um mean And to fulfill his masculine, his hyper masculine style, he will either create ah conflict or create problems, create ah issues for him to fix, or he'll go chase them.
00:15:20
Speaker
So he'll join the military. he'll He'll get into sports that are... And sports are great. Sports are very like direction and outcome. I mean, real simple. And so... um not to mention Not to mention a healthy outlet for that energy. Absolutely. you know Because you know a guy that's like that, he you he might be just born with that amount of intensity inside of him.
00:15:43
Speaker
yeah And that's it's not bad to have that intensity. you need those guys. Yeah. yeah Yeah. And especially when the aliens land and we need to take care of business, we want as many of those standing here as possible. Right.
00:15:54
Speaker
Yeah. But but again, they're finding the healthy you know way of exercising that. And one thing I've noticed with the men that I work with is a lot of guys and maybe they're not the hyper masculine type, but a lot of them, they try to exercise their masculinity with their female partner.
00:16:11
Speaker
Right. And the female partner is like, what the heck? Like, I am not built for this. And i I don't know that a lot of them have the awareness of like, hey, you should go work that out with your buddies yeah on a football field or wherever. Right.
00:16:25
Speaker
and In your couples counseling, is that something that you see come up Right. I see it come up when a wife, for example, has a job that is pretty masculine.
00:16:37
Speaker
And like she's in a she's in a leadership role. She's managing people. Managing people is a very masculine, but it can be, for the most part, if you think about it, I'm sticking with Movement, direction, and outcomes.
00:16:50
Speaker
buts That's a managerial role. and And then she comes home to a family with kids and a husband, and she's got to switch that off. And not not everyone can do that.
00:17:00
Speaker
Same with guys. Guys come home from managing or working and and just work in general, depending on how masculine it is. They can't switch it off. Yeah.
00:17:11
Speaker
yeah So I've seen things like – ah the wife, this gets really interesting. If she makes more money, is that the source of power between the two?
00:17:21
Speaker
Yeah. i yeah A lot of guys, a lot of guys will feel intimidated. They will feel like they don't have, they will feel like their role is diminished when, when their wife is making significantly more money than them for sure.
00:17:35
Speaker
Right. I'm curious. So coming back from the workplace into the home, you know, you're you're in a different context. um Do you have any techniques or tricks or practices that people can do to transition between work, you know, work mode, home mode, relationship mode, parenting mode, so so that they're not just, I was managing people in the office, now i'm just going to manage people in the living room.
00:18:03
Speaker
um Have you worked out any any effective techniques? Yeah. it's nothing really sexy it's it's take a breath before you pull into the driveway and go into the house and and reset yourself um if you've got a partner that's open to it a lot of people who align to the feminine they they ah get it out, so to speak, by talking, by talking about it.
00:18:26
Speaker
So if you're a guy and you've got a woman in this in this way, let her talk it out and yep try not to fix it, because that's that's what masculinity wants to do is to fix it.
00:18:38
Speaker
And so it's an investment that I'm going to listen for about 10 minutes. And hopefully in an hour, we're going to be right back to I'm the masculine, she's the feminine and we're good.
00:18:49
Speaker
So it's an investment of... But you want to hold that interim space for the person to transition, let some of the things out. yeah Well, essentially, if you're saying, hey, I'm going to just listen to you, you know, what'd you say? Just...
00:19:06
Speaker
ah you know you know In one way, yeah, I mean, I'm just going to listen to you doing that. What you're really saying is I'm going to let you drop into your feminine during this period. And I'm going to let you get comfortable with it and sort of like doing a trust fall on me in a discussion. Yeah. You know, and it's like, oh, see, you can land over and over and over.
00:19:25
Speaker
And that might help her let go of the grip, you know, that she had to have in the workplace. Right, right, right, right. ah When it doesn't, and that's tough that's hard. That's hard to do for both people.
00:19:37
Speaker
And so playing that out, the the more extreme is is guys get stuck.
Action Cycles and Relationship Dynamics
00:19:45
Speaker
um If you think of those three steps, masculinity, action, direction, outcome.
00:19:50
Speaker
If the outcome is being determined by someone else, I'll start to get stuck. Like, well, what the hell? Why should I even try? And i'll I'll still take action in a direction, but it won't be really going anywhere.
00:20:03
Speaker
It'll just be sort of this a cycle of useless action. I called it a holding pattern. Oh, yeah. You're circling the airport, burning fuel, and not going anywhere at the same time. Right, right.
00:20:16
Speaker
So I'll see wives who work the majority between the two. She puts in the most hours or whatever. And, uh, And she'll want help around the house.
00:20:26
Speaker
All right, husband, I need you to do the laundry. I need you to do this with the kids. And the guy's like, okay, but I won't do it as well as you are because I'm not you. And so she'll take it to the next step and and make a list, a task list, and put it up on the kitchen ah counter you know and you know check it off when you're done. And it still doesn't work. Now she's micromanaging.
00:20:48
Speaker
And she's trying to use a masculine approach to manage her masculine man. Right. So for me, when I hear that, I'm thinking, okay, he just becomes another one of the kids with a list of chores. you know and ah you know so So the way that i I like to talk about this with guys is you know she's there are things that needs to get to get done. She's talking about problems. And again, we try to fix her.
00:21:13
Speaker
right The way I actually like to look at it is like, guys, you need to look in a larger perspective and look at what needs to be fixed in the environment around her and get ahead of it. yeah You know, go take her car to the car wash and do it on your own.
00:21:28
Speaker
Start taking on some initiative because what I've noticed is that women tend to, I don't know, they have a a natural sort of um instinct and it will seem random that they're washing this, putting that away, doing this, talking with somebody and somehow they're, they're you know, I guess multitasking, but but I just look at it as spontaneously sort of doing a bunch of things and it all happens. Right.
00:21:51
Speaker
yeah where I, as a guy, tend to be much more procedural where I'm going to do this, now I'm doing that, now I'm doing that. yeah But I think as a guy, if you just start, take a big chunk and remove it you know ah from it, you know go trim the tree that hasn't been trimmed, but that you know is weighing on her mind and stressing her out.
00:22:08
Speaker
right When you do that, she will naturally just sort of do the all the other things. But if you don't, or you ask her what it is that, you know, you know what needs to be done. You know what's weighing on her. Take the thing that's weighing on her and remove it, you know, proactively.
00:22:25
Speaker
Because if you're if you're following her lead, i i can't help but see that when... When it really turns into a list on the refrigerator, I mean, you're just one of the kids and she's going to see you as a mother and that's gonna that's goingnna impact that's going to impact her ability to relax you know with you. That's going to impact her trust. that's right because's She's going to feel like it ultimately is still going to fall on her.
00:22:47
Speaker
And it's really going to impact, I think, the dynamic in the bedroom. like She's just not going to be turned on by a guy that she's having to give chores to like a son. Right, right.
00:22:58
Speaker
I'm seeing it a lot. It's a really tough, a place that we're in right now is a culture. ah men Women are graduating from college. they're ah A lot more of them are making as much or more money in white collar positions.
00:23:12
Speaker
And so in suburban marriages, this is really, really common. And it's it's hard. It's tough. It's a tough visceral because we don't know what it is we don't have words for it uh we just know as a man i it just doesn't fit i don't like this but i don't know what to do about because she's you know i have my resume and it is what it is and she has hers and yeah but You know, it's frustrating.
Modern Marriage and Financial Roles
00:23:40
Speaker
It is. It is. And, and, and it's frustrating because you've made this commitment. Yeah. You know, you're in this bonded situation. So it's not like you can just walk away. I mean, if you're dating or, you know, early stages relationship, yes, you can.
00:23:52
Speaker
Yeah. You know, but if you're married and and particularly if you have children, but I mean, you are bonded and, know, trying to sort that out from in, from inside of a very limited environment, you know, where you, where you're bumping into somebody, any way I move is going to affect her. That is right.
00:24:10
Speaker
That is a huge challenge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what we're talking about is real. so I mean, it's just masculine and feminine behaviors that tend to bump on bump into each other.
00:24:20
Speaker
And, um, So asking the question, if we have an environment where the resources are not limited, they're unlimited resources, we really do as a culture ah need to figure that out because it's the hyper masculinity that's driving things, has been driving things for Since humanity ah and with unlimited resources coming up, ah we will either ah recreate a crisis. So there's limited resources or or will be. ah
00:24:54
Speaker
I would say they'll be captured and profit. There'll be a small group of people who profit from those resources and everyone else is like, yeah, but they're, they should be free.
00:25:05
Speaker
And those both sound, those both sound like horrible ways for things to play. They really do Yeah. And ah the potential is so awesome, but we really, as we need to figure out a version of masculinity that can handle something like universal pay, for example.
00:25:22
Speaker
Hmm. What are men gonna do with purpose when they make an income that they don't have to work for? That's tough. Yeah. so well Well, I mean, my my personal thing is, ah you know, you're your finances, ah they should never be your purpose.
00:25:38
Speaker
um They should never be what actually gives you a sense of it. Because when you play that game, they you know there's always going to be somebody who's got bigger boat, a bigger jet, a bigger house, yeah you know i mean a hotter wife. I mean, there's always going to be. So that you know that that doesn't work when you're dealing with resources as the actual measurement of of value and purpose.
00:26:01
Speaker
For me, but but they're closely tied. you know It's very hard for a man to feel confident about himself without his resources being on point. right So great the trick is to find, the in my opinion, the trick is to find the intrinsic motivators yeah that actually drove us and actually created enough value that some, not somehow, but we're creating, money flows according to value and service.
00:26:25
Speaker
yeah That's how it works economically. yeah You have something of value and you are providing it, that you're providing a service to the world with that thing of value. but As a result of intrinsically providing these things, I'm getting increasing amounts of wealth.
00:26:39
Speaker
yeah The wealth is just and is just an easy way to see that the value in service is actually taking place. yeah right And I think when the resources become more universally available,
00:26:53
Speaker
We're going to have to we're goingnna have to be even more um subtle and in listening to what the intrinsic um you know value and services that we're actually providing for the world. right And those might sound like cliche terms, but when it comes down to on a daily basis, what do I provide for the world? And this is something like I've i've really been thinking about this late lately with charisma.
00:27:17
Speaker
ah hu A charismatic person provides service and value to every social scene that they walk into. Yeah. Yeah. you Maybe if they're like a DJ, you know, maybe they make money on it, but a lot of people don't make money for in exchange for that.
00:27:32
Speaker
But those are the sorts of things that might actually become a little bit more valuable, you know, really like in, ah in an environment like that. Right. Right. ah Yeah. If you're going to buy a car,
00:27:43
Speaker
You want to know you can go back to your guy and get it fixed and and you develop a relationship that's long term. It's less transactional. I think that's kind of what you're getting at. thank true Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to it. I hope we can make this transition because it it just sounds like we'll have more mom and pop stores in our cities and towns. It'll be more personal, more interactive and less transactional and cool.
Collaboration Over Competition
00:28:08
Speaker
Yeah. and So it's it's not about we've got to be less masculine. It's it's use that masculinity to make things happen with other people instead of white knuckling your way through by yourself.
00:28:21
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it it does bring up ah this concept we were going to talk about, about codependency and because getting needs met. Right. Yeah.
00:28:34
Speaker
how we get those needs met if they're not being met that's that's basically the the origin of codependency and so how we handle not getting our needs met so what you were saying the intrinsic motivation i've i've thought about this a lot it's it's like money is not the real reason it's it's what money can do for us
Codependency and Emotional Dynamics
00:28:54
Speaker
if we use it uh if we spend money on certain things if i want to get respect i'll I can buy a fancy car and people will look at me. will They'll look at my car. Right. And it'll feel like respect.
00:29:05
Speaker
Well, they'll look at you coming out of the car and going into the car. They'll notice you too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not the money. Right. It's that sense that I'm going to earn this respect somehow by getting a car.
00:29:17
Speaker
Right. Or I'm going to buy a nice house for my woman and she'll be happy with me. and love me and and and love appreciation respect and acknowledgement those are the four basics and so money is more like like if you wanted to go to pittsburgh and you're driving and you saw the sign 100 miles to pittsburgh if you just stopped right there and looked at the sign oh sign pittsburgh that's money going to Actually going to Pittsburgh is the payoff.
00:29:50
Speaker
And so a lot of us get stuck with, I'm just going to go after the sign and not go all the way. So that that sign, let me just add this one little piece to it.
00:30:01
Speaker
that that That sign is in a way, um when we look at it in terms of a bank account you know and how much money you have sitting in there, it does tell you how many miles you can travel. It does tell you your your capacity, the places you can travel. But it is but it is to your point, it's all merely potential when it's in that form.
00:30:20
Speaker
Right. um right and and that And that store of energy and that potential is very seductive and attractive and sexy to both sexes. yeah It really is. but But absolutely, its it's an interim step to the actual experience you're going to have. Yeah, right, right, right.
00:30:38
Speaker
So to tell us more about this. the the So the codependency, and we were talking about this the other night at the event, how codependency actually has a... It maps very closely to the nice guy syndrome yeah that a lot of guys work with. So can you could you give us the quick layout on how those kind of lay... Yeah. So at its core, codependency is... The co-part of it is there's two people, at least two people.
00:31:04
Speaker
ah One person needs to get their needs... Well, both need to get their needs met. But the way they do it is... ah but's Let's say I'm one person and I've been programmed either in my childhood for whatever reason to keep your emotions calm.
00:31:22
Speaker
And so I'm going to become overly responsible for your well-being and for your emotions. And I'll try and keep you happy ah and make sure that you don't go get get into drama. I do this either escalate or shut down.
00:31:37
Speaker
And and meanwhile, the other person is exploiting the the first one because they want those needs met. And if if you if the other person doesn't provide them, they'll create the drama.
00:31:52
Speaker
And so it becomes this cycle of. let me Let me manage your drama. And the other person is like, well, if I don't get my needs met, I'm going to do the drama. So you better watch out. And it's just this ongoing cycle.
00:32:04
Speaker
And you you had mentioned that this term kind of came up first in the Al-Anon groups. is that Is that correct? Yeah, in the 80s, it came out of ah Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon.
00:32:15
Speaker
and And the reason, like I said, I use the word programming. It usually happens in childhood where we have parents or a parent or somebody in authority is emotionally volatile you're going home from school you have no idea what the house is going to look like today what are we in for today yeah and so you brace yourself and over time you learn to help manage the environment and that's the setup for that becomes a template for how you behave in later relationships
00:32:49
Speaker
Cool. So, so tell us now, nice guys when they're dating, when they're in a relationship. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, basically it's a, it's a codependent relationship where the nice guy has been programmed to believe that if I take care of your needs and, uh,
00:33:06
Speaker
That's great. And here's the kicker. But but I expect something back in return. And if I don't get it, then I will do my drama. and ah And so it's it's ah an expectation.
00:33:20
Speaker
Yeah. If ah if I've got if I buy dinner, I want a little something at the end, you know, and and if I don't get it, then I'm going to create some drama. And ah just to be clear, this is the unhealthy way that a guy goes about but yeah dating, um you know, being in relationship is this yeah expect, well, a direct expectation, almost a transactional back and forth. There you go.
00:33:43
Speaker
But particularly if, if the, if the reciprocity isn't even expressed, it's not even made clear to the person and then we'll get cloudy or, you know, or petulant or angry or moody or anything else.
00:33:58
Speaker
Because the person didn't somehow know what we were expecting in return. it sounds crazy, but... No, know it makes perfect sense to me. I mean, I'm a right nice guy, you know, it makes sense to me, yeah yeah um but it absolutely doesn't work very well. Right.
00:34:13
Speaker
Right. And I don't even know I'm doing it most of the time because it's been such ingrained in me. I don't even know I do it. So that goes right into my next question is how, so we do, this so it's a pattern.
00:34:24
Speaker
It's coming from childhood. It's, it's from a usually very turbulent, um um you know, unpredictable um yeah power figure in our lives. Yes.
00:34:34
Speaker
and right so And so we've we've we've developed this pattern behavior essentially to try to regulate the environment. And maybe it is maybe this is a bit of an exaggeration, but we're trying to survive.
00:34:47
Speaker
yeah This behavior is helping us make ah you know make our survival a little more manageable. right So right for me, from like, not day one, but for me, for from early days, this is normal.
00:34:58
Speaker
How? How in the world um do I become aware of the fact, one, that I'm even doing this? yeah And then two... I become aware of it. I mean, what else do I do? How do I unhook myself from it? Let's let's start with the first one.
00:35:13
Speaker
How can a guy, how can a guy become aware that he's being a nice guy and, and having this codependency pattern play out? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great question. um ah You can look at the symptoms, which we'll get into here in a second.
00:35:27
Speaker
ah But if you have a pattern ah of those symptoms in your life, you're probably doing it. And here's the thing. I mean, we have to say this, that it's normal to have some transactions in every relationship.
00:35:40
Speaker
I mean, like we talked about before, we're doing this podcast. i' I'm loving this and and you're offering it. and But if I wasn't loving it, I would probably say something and I'd do my best to make it clean and clear and you would do your best to to adjust.
00:35:58
Speaker
But if I was an ass about it, that would be me using a codependent bait to hook you in to get me what I want. I don't like this. You need to send me a box of food in return.
00:36:10
Speaker
Right. And so I'm sending you chocolates afterwards. Don't worry. You know, it worked. So ah that's the difference. we We need to highlight that.
00:36:20
Speaker
Like I said before, it's kind of like eating. We all need food. But when we do too much food, it's unhealthy. And so that's kind of how this is. This is an unhealthy version of a of a secure, like if we were both secure people, ah we're we're not going to have drama over this.
00:36:37
Speaker
Right, because there's transparency in the exchange. Yes, right. All the cards are face up on the table. Yeah. you know We're both receiving, giving and receiving value as part of the exchange. Yeah. codependency, particularly a nice guy where there's an un unspoken expectation, yeah those cards are either face down or off the table altogether.
00:36:59
Speaker
right. um And usually they're face down because the guy doesn't even know that he does this. And that's the first step is you have to develop, You have to kind of look back at your relationships and go, what was my role in that?
Identifying 'Nice Guy' Behavior
00:37:13
Speaker
And then ah I like to talk about bait and hooks. yeah and Before we go into that, I want to i want to come back to to, again, how can a guy recognize that he is living out this kind of behavior in an acute way?
00:37:28
Speaker
Um, if you could, cause again, I'm just thinking about the guys listening to the podcast and they're, they're wondering, well, am I doing this? I think I'm a nice guy, but I, I, I just think I'm being nice. I just think I'm taking care of the person.
00:37:40
Speaker
How can I become aware that this pattern is playing out inside myself? Like on a really like big flashing red flags. Yeah. Um, the easiest way is to look at the symptoms.
00:37:51
Speaker
So, uh, uh, one, one that gets used a lot is, um, I call him bait and hooks. So the bait is false kindness. I'm going to be really nice to you.
00:38:03
Speaker
And um but what I'm expecting is for you to either be nice to me or to do what I want or comply to something. And the hook, if I'm the bait is false kindness, the hook is you feel obligated.
00:38:20
Speaker
OK, so ah like if I'd sent you a box of food before this podcast, you'd be like, wow, OK, that was over the top. Now i I got to ask him all the stuff that he wants, you know, or whatever, whatever the obligation is.
00:38:35
Speaker
So if you have a history of doing that, ah you're probably the one who is the baiter. and not getting hooked. You're the one throwing, you know, fishing, you know, you're throwing the bait into the water yeah as opposed to being the fish.
00:38:50
Speaker
So, uh, that's, if you've got a history of that one, there's, there's maybe six, maybe eight different symptoms like this. Uh, another one would be empathy.
00:39:03
Speaker
Wow. Empathy. Um, So empathy is when I'm overly involved with your feelings and I want to fix them as opposed to compassion.
00:39:15
Speaker
I can see that you're having feelings, but I'm not going to get in it with you. Yeah. So there's a difference. But if I'm going to use empathy, and oh, that's too bad here, let me pat you on the back here, have a cup of coffee and and do all this stuff for you.
00:39:29
Speaker
um You're gonna start to feel ah bit of shame because God, I feel like this other person has to come in and fix this for me and I can't even take care of it myself.
00:39:40
Speaker
And so ah that's a really powerful one right there. Just to clarify, so when someone else has to be empathetic towards me yeah a lot, that's what you mean?
00:39:52
Speaker
So if if people are having to oversoothe me or over... up I don't know, reassure me or prop me up or something. Right. If this is a, I mean, obviously there are moments where we need to be consoled, but if this is sort of an ongoing regular thing.
00:40:07
Speaker
Right. That, so how did, how is that a codependency? The bait and hook. Yep. Yep. Yep. yep yep yeah um because ah I'm needing that.
00:40:19
Speaker
I have an overdeveloped need for that empathy because i as a child, I wasn't heard. Nobody was empathy empathetic for me. my My mom was a cold, her style of parenting was cold and distant.
00:40:34
Speaker
So now I'm desperate for that kind of empathy. But here's the here's the trick. If the one who's providing that empathy, they shift over to compassion and they say, you know, Let's put your resume together and let's help you find a job. And, and, uh, you know, I'll check back with you in a week.
00:40:50
Speaker
That's like a very, that's a healthy, compassionate thing to do. If I do that and, and let's say you're the one that's got the need for the empathy and you're like, no, I don't want to do that.
00:41:01
Speaker
Right. And then tomorrow you're expecting me to be empathetic again. Right. Now we got a problem. Yeah. And if, and if you, and if that person continues to provide just empathy, that would be sort of enabling that person too not to not take responsibility.
Developing Self-Reliance
00:41:16
Speaker
And, and then on the other side, they're not, um there's no accountability being brought into the relationship.
00:41:23
Speaker
Right. um And yeah. Okay. So the dependency is I need this other person to do these things in order for me to continue maintaining a, you know, an acceptable level of, of,
00:41:34
Speaker
of mood or happiness inside of myself. yeah I'm reliant. I'm dependent. Yeah. Good. I see it. ah I was on an airplane one time sitting next to ah a woman and she, I told her as a therapist, she said, Oh, my son, he can't find a job. And his girlfriend quit. He lives in my house. And, um and I thought, okay, well this guy, you know, he's like,
00:41:58
Speaker
19, maybe 22 at worst. I said, well, how old is he? Oh, well, he's 34. Okay. So I took a risk and I said, so um how old does a man need to be before he's a man? I mean, how do you shift from a child to a man?
00:42:13
Speaker
What's that shift? And what's the age? i was And she said, oh, well, he'll always be my baby. And So they were in a codependent relationship and she was providing whatever she was providing, but she wasn't going to let go because she was getting something back.
00:42:31
Speaker
And that's a very solid codependent relationship. It's a good example. Yeah. and I've, I've heard, I mean, maybe, maybe I'm just thinking more of like, um, you know, movies and areas and stuff, but yeah there are a lot of men that are married and have children that still have that relationship.
00:42:46
Speaker
Um, the pair bonding with the mother that the umbilical cord was never really cut. right Um, do you, is that something that you've run into with your clients? Absolutely.
00:42:58
Speaker
Uh, but the thing we were talking about it earlier, um So if the wife is and this is really common right now in our culture, the wife makes more money and she's in a managerial position, which is masculine and comes home to a house that there's another masculine person there. But he's he's he for whatever he's needs me to mother him.
00:43:19
Speaker
And i can't do that. I'm a manager at work. And so I'm not going to do that. And so he'll create drama to get her to mother him. Yeah. Lots of tension right there.
00:43:31
Speaker
So, yeah um yeah. So how do you tell a guy that one right there? That's like one of the eight examples. That's um how do you tell a guy that, dude, you need to buck up. You need to, you know, how do you say that?
00:43:46
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I mean, I feel like man to man, guy to guy, you know, we're not sleeping together. if we're not having children together, it's really easy for us as guys to say that, like, dude, you are, you're being a lazy bum. Yeah. youre act together up And you dude, like you're, I, I don't like this. This doesn't turn me on. I don't want to hang out with this.
00:44:05
Speaker
The guy's going to like, yeah, you're right. yeah but your But if your spouse says that, you know yeah there that is not going to be taken the same way. And um again, coming back to this conversation i was having last night you know with with wife, she was talking about you know with her husband and and she was like you know she had she's saw some videos online you know and she's like, oh you I sent them to him to watch. And I was like, yeah, that's not going to work.
00:44:27
Speaker
yeah And she's like, well, how? And I was like, well well, what you have to do, this is just a little bit of a little pointer. i said was I said, you can say, hey, I saw these videos. This is the wife talking.
00:44:38
Speaker
Hey, I saw these videos. you know I really like this guy, but I'd like to know what you think. Yeah. Right. What it is, is it's putting your husband on an equal footing with whoever this person is.
00:44:50
Speaker
And you're, you're not asking him to follow. You're asking him like, Hey, I'm actually with my husband first. I want you to verify that this other man isn't full of shit.
00:45:00
Speaker
Yeah. You know, that's actually like and and yeah this grin popped up on her face and she was like, oh, my gosh, like, that's amazing. Yeah. you know and And then she said, well, I can't do that now because I've already done it, you know, with this guy. And I said, no, you know, the next time you're laying in bed, you can say, hey, I know I sent you those videos, but like I'm looking at another video from this guy and I just want to know what you think. And she's like, you're right.
00:45:23
Speaker
Like, you know that'll just work. Right. but and And it's unfair that like guys, we work very directly with each other. Yeah. But when our partner approaches us,
00:45:34
Speaker
Directly in some senses, we we do not respond well. we we right oh um As much as we say, just tell me, yeah that is so not true in certain situations.
00:45:47
Speaker
kelly how do you want How do you how do you how do you but sort those into the two different buckets? How do you do that oh with your clients? Wow. Well, I mean, you did kind of nail it. What what that statement does is here, I want your thoughts.
00:46:00
Speaker
Take a look at this. I'd love to get your thoughts. That moves from a ah ah conversation style where there's you and your opinions and there's me and my opinions. And it moves to a we and us.
00:46:14
Speaker
And we'll collaborate and come out with... An opinion that we can work with together. But if we're if it's you and me, then and and we're not connecting, then I'm probably going to make an accusation, which so when a woman sends a video to her husband, what's not being said is there's an accusation here.
Collaborative Conflict Resolution
00:46:33
Speaker
Like you're not doing it right. Watch these videos so you can do it right. And so that pisses them off. And that just goes down the board. It shuts down one button after another all the way down.
00:46:43
Speaker
Yeah, right. Right. Any accusation is going to do that no matter what. It's all accusations create defensiveness. So you have to turn. and this is a little secret in in conflict style.
00:46:56
Speaker
ah If you're in the middle of an intense argument, what? We tend to take our side and and but if you want to get out of that, you have to turn it into a we and us.
00:47:07
Speaker
And if this is a partner. Right. So. ah So, yeah, that's the way to do it. Another way to do that in the middle of a conflict is wait, wait, wait, we wait. So what I'm hearing you say is this. Is that how you mean to say it?
00:47:21
Speaker
And all of a sudden now we're we're getting on the same a line of thinking together. As opposed to assuming I know what you mean and probably getting it at least 50% wrong 50% of the time. Right.
00:47:35
Speaker
And using that to accuse you. And building on top of that. yeah That just comp compounds the misunderstandings. Exactly. Yeah. yeah yeah Yeah. Yeah. So, um boy, I forgot your original question. It was how how to...
00:47:49
Speaker
ah Yeah. Separate those two out. For me, that's always the sign of a great date, you know, ah is the is the fact that you go off on so many tangents and there's so many exciting things. And oh yeah and and I talk about that, you know, a guy and a girl, you're on a date. The best dates are the ones that like there are 12 more conversations to have.
00:48:07
Speaker
Obviously, we have to do it. But I mean, i practice this myself and i I talk with the men that I work with that you need to have dates with men. you know that that don't have a sexual component, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a spark, that there isn't also um excitement, that there isn't also chemistry, like real chemistry happening.
00:48:27
Speaker
And you know in conversations like this, I love it when there's so many exciting threads to follow. um We forget. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And for all the guys out there, this is what it looks like. If you're wondering what chemistry between two men looks like, yeah trying to hash it out, like neither of us have the full answers on any of this.
00:48:47
Speaker
Right. Right. but But we're both activated and feel alive as a result of it. Like this is what a good date looks like between two men. Right. Right. Right. And if you were a woman, this is also what it should look like really energetically. We just might be, you know, doing more later that we're going to do. Right.
00:49:03
Speaker
Right. As opposed to ah no, Dallas, I've got all the answers and and you just need to listen to me. Yeah. Talk a little bit about that because I think a lot of guys ah get into, let's just talk about male friendships, you know, and that sort of thing.
00:49:17
Speaker
all right talk Talk about, you know, cause some guys that's all they know, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's conversations. God, I forgot. I think it was Plato has philosophy and then Philonica or anyway, philosophy is to have a conversation to ah develop more knowledge between the two of us to develop wisdom.
00:49:36
Speaker
Yeah. ah The other kind of conversation is a type of victory where i try and convince you of something. And it's a very different kind of conversation. And so a lot of men come at, because they're masculine and masculinity naturally has a direction and and an outcome.
00:49:54
Speaker
And if you have a different perspective, ideal or a different opinion, that's a different outcome. So now we're going to compete. And so I have to have victory over you because now we have competing opinions as opposed to a philosophical conversation where we're going to use this to develop wisdom and collaborate.
00:50:13
Speaker
So I know I just went down that rabbit hole, ah but that's kind of the crux of it. It's a lot of guys have been taught that masculinity, it's always competitive, no matter what. And that's what masculinity is.
00:50:25
Speaker
And it's just not. Well, I mean, i think competition where we're on the same team and yeah there's ah there's a verse from the Bible, you know, like iron on iron, yeah one man sharpens another.
00:50:37
Speaker
but We do need to have that challenge. We do need to have that competition in order to bring out the sharpest, strongest, best sides of ourselves. right but But the word that you just used that that for me really is at the crux of it is the word convince.
00:50:52
Speaker
um because Because convincing, i believe it's from the same Latin root as vanquish, which is to knock down, dominate, take the wind out of the sails, get you down on your knees. and youre right now And you're in now, now there is one of us that's standing and alive and one of us that is out of the game.
00:51:09
Speaker
Yeah, there's a different type competition where you are both in the game, but we're both getting stronger in the game. You sort of like the 300 movie, you know, we all the Spartans.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah. Well, they have obviously competed with each other in brutal ways. Right, right. all On the same side. Yes. And then when those, those men that are friends, cause I would definitely say, i mean, they're beyond friendship, but they're definitely friends as well.
00:51:36
Speaker
When they go out together, they are presenting a type of, um, masculine power that no single man who is trying to convince another man can ever have on his own.
00:51:50
Speaker
Right. And that for me, and and whoever leads that group, whoever leads that group of brotherhood, that, that is healthy alpha. Yes. where the where the type of alpha that is trying to convince and be down and, you know, snarl at the other dogs. So the other dogs whimper and put the tails under their legs.
00:52:09
Speaker
Yeah. um Sorry, that pack isn't going to be nearly as badass as the pack of 300. Right. With the alpha that is that is that is more open and not looking to convince and is searching more of the, you know, the love of wisdom, the philosophy that you're talking
Future of Masculinity in Abundance
00:52:24
Speaker
about.
00:52:24
Speaker
right. Yeah. And ah another rabbit hole that connects to is what we're going to do when we have ah resources that are available, like energy could be, you know, two to five years. It'll it'll be really cheap and maybe even free electricity.
00:52:42
Speaker
And, you know, that that competing masculinity, that hyper masculinity works when we have limited resources because we are ultimately competing with other people all the time for food, water, clothing, shelter, um opinions and and ideals.
00:52:59
Speaker
And So how are we what is masculinity going to look like when we have unlimited resources and we don't have to compete in a hyper way? So the way you just described that, I like to think of it as like, if you've ever played on a team and you had a really good coach, the difference between a good coach and a bad coach is the good coach. Like you said, it, we use a practice to play against each other.
00:53:24
Speaker
And, but the good coach highlights the, ah how it's How it works. Whereas a bad coach will find the the rock star and put them at the front and all the plays wrap around that one person.
00:53:37
Speaker
and And that's not nurturing the full team. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So it ultimately becomes destructive. That kind of hyper-masculinity...
00:53:50
Speaker
It works in a crisis, in a battlefield, ah in a burning building. you need You want people who are willing to run in and save people. um ah but But ideally, you need a leader that inspires that in as many of the troops, as yeah many of the EMT you know um people as possible.
00:54:12
Speaker
yeah right You need someone that wakes that up, that leadership quality inside of each other. Right. Because I'm sorry, like, you know, you only have so many superstars that just have it in them. but Right.
00:54:23
Speaker
The leader is the one that is ah infectious, you know, in that in that fire. Right. And so so coming back to like male friendships, you know, and yeah doing that, let's say, well, I mean, i I know that I'm i'm probably an oddball, but I ask guys out, you know, i'm i'm at I'm at a meetup group, you know, I'm at something and i I will like, hey, man, you seem cool. Do you want to hang out sometime?
00:54:46
Speaker
yeah yeah I think that's happened to me maybe once or twice in my entire life ah externally. And I've done it dozens of times. Right, right. And we talk about this crisis of men not having enough friends and you know and being ah really isolated in themselves.
00:55:01
Speaker
yeah And that's obviously a ah massive topic in itself. But if you were to just give a couple of tips you know from your history, you know your experience in working with men in men's groups and and as a therapist,
00:55:13
Speaker
yeah How can guys break down those barriers and get more of a synergistic loving of wisdom, not trying to convince each other, but trying to challenge each other in a stimulating way?
Building Trust in Male Friendships
00:55:25
Speaker
oh yeah what would you what would but What would you suggest the guys do Yeah, yeah. ah ah Put a group together around a topic of some kind. It could be my favorite one.
00:55:37
Speaker
but We're kind of in the Denver area here. So there's an area, Wash Park. ah People go play kickball. And kickball such an easy sport. And it's a great way to meet people.
00:55:48
Speaker
but But there's a sport at the center of it. And guys need a third thing that's sort of a topic to talk about or to work at or to to be shoulder to shoulder with about that thing.
00:56:03
Speaker
And then once the conversations take off and trust develops, uh i call it a container a container starts to develop where all right i trust these guys and i'm gonna i'm gonna say something that uh i show up late let's say i show up late to practice rick where you been what's your problem as problem with the wife you know and then later one of the guys will pull me aside what's going on man and because we have that trust now i can be a little more vulnerable and and uh So it, but it's, it's a bit of a process and it starts with developing trust just around a particular topic.
00:56:41
Speaker
And that, and that trust between men, it part of it is we need to have kind of, ah um played at it shoulder to shoulder for a while yeah so that we can establish coming back to the relationship, yeah coming back to a we, we, we go from you over there and me right here.
00:56:58
Speaker
Yeah. We trust because we, you know, have something that we have been through together. Right. Is that, is that part of that trust element? is Absolutely. Absolutely. A group, a room full of veterans, uh,
00:57:11
Speaker
They won't say anything in the first night. they They're just completely silent because each of them know that how deep their experience goes. And in their in their past, they've talked about it with somebody and it didn't go well.
00:57:24
Speaker
So, you know, they they need to develop the trust first. yeah In order to be vulnerable. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. yeah ah the The feminine people of the world, mostly women, ah they seem to have a natural understanding that feeling is part of the conversation.
00:57:42
Speaker
And so they naturally go to that. Gotcha. Yeah. yeah but They're not competing so much for an outcome either. They might compete for ah who gets to talk the most, but it's not about the outcome.
00:57:56
Speaker
ah talking Talking with women or really listening with to women talk about this, they say it is so incredibly complex. Usually there a lot of women have told me they're envious you know that that male relationships require a lot less maintenance.
00:58:08
Speaker
yeah I cannot see a guy for five years and we just run bump into each other and it's like we saw each other last week. And where they they have told me that you know the complexities and you know they would say, well, maybe it's not overt competition, but there's backstabbing, there's there's you know gossip, there's all kinds of things. it's it's It just takes a different form, yeah you know the the competitive dynamics. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. bill Rick, this has been awesome. um I'm really enjoying this. We could probably go on for another hour. Yeah, I know. um But so, you know, um' I'm sure I'll have you back
Rick Taylor's Counseling Services
00:58:41
Speaker
on again. um
00:58:42
Speaker
But in the in the meantime, in the meantime, um so you, you know, you work with couples and you especially work with guys and you run men's groups. So yeah tons to offer. You're in the Denver area. Is that correct? Right.
00:58:54
Speaker
Right. Denver, Colorado. so So tell us, if people want to if people want to follow you, if they want to know more about you, if they want to get in touch with you, where where do they go? How do they how do they do that? Yep. ah My counseling is TouchBaseCounseling.
00:59:07
Speaker
So it's TouchBaseCounseling.com. and if you think about it's it's touch base, I always thought of ah growing up, we used to play hide and seek and there's always this big tree and that's where's base and we'd fight over who touches base and, you know, that kind of thing.
00:59:19
Speaker
ah The men's groups, which is my favorite thing going on right now is called neomangroup.com. I'm shifting everything over to Kajabi. So the domain is down right now.
00:59:32
Speaker
um It's a platform. Yeah, Kajabi is like a video platform. So I'm putting together a bunch of videos and courses and groups and coaching. and But you'll find it on the counseling. There's a page on there for men's groups on the counseling page, on the counseling website, Touch Base Counseling.
00:59:51
Speaker
So ah right now I have a group that's online. It's winding down in a couple of weeks and I got another one starting in my office. Surprisingly, I would have thought guys would love to just meet online.
01:00:04
Speaker
ah But I've had a lot of guys say i work online. i do everything online. And I really want to something live. So you, so you offer the in-person experience for people willing to get their butts out to, out to Denver.
01:00:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. three Yeah. And they do, they do. ah so ah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So those are counseling and Vince groups. It's kind of my thing. So. Well, thank you, Rick. This has been wonderful. thanks me Thanks for giving us a whole different perspective on what therapy sessions can look like with men and ah sort of speaking to the other side you know of a lot of these issues. It's been wonderful. Yeah, i hope it helps.
01:00:42
Speaker
Yeah. All right. I'm sure it will. right. Thanks so much, Rick. right. Take care. You're welcome. See ya.