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What Prison Can Teach Us About School w/ Jennifer Berkshire
0 Playsin 12 hours
Tomorrow, I’ll be trading Iowa for a couple days in Los Angeles, where the HRP team will be presenting for the third year at LearningInspirEd’s Student Power Summit. It’s in LA this year in partnership with Homeboy Industries, the largest gang rehabilitation and re-entry program in the world. The founder, Father Greg Boyle, is quoted on the Homeboy homepage saying, “We imagine a world without prisons, and then we try to create that world,”. And I’m really looking forward to meeting and talking with the people there to learn more about how Homeboy works. A bit of a facetious question that sticks in my head is, in the high-stakes data-driven world of schooling, what piece of content or curriculum did these guys miss that would’ve made the difference? And more seriously, what is it about the environment at Homeboy Industries that schools can learn from? I’ll have more on that when I get back.
But until we build that world wi thout prisons, there will need to be programs for incarcerated people and people in transition from prison to public life, too.
That’s where this conversation with Jennifer Berkshire came about. Of course you know Jennifer from her years of hosting the Have You Heard? Podcast with her co-host Jack Schneider, and their coauthored books The Wolf At The Schoolhouse Door and The Education Wars. But for the past couple of years, Jennifer has also been teaching journalism and education policy in the Boston College Prison Education Program at MCI-Shirley, a medium security prison for men in central Massachusetts. Recording isn’t allowed in the prison facility, but in 2025 Jennifer spoke with some of the men in her program who had been released from MCI-Shirley and were finishing their degrees on the Boston College campus, and she gave me permission to use those clips here.
As you can hear, the program was a life-changing experience for these men, and it’s been life-changing for Jennifer too.
This conversation with Jennifer was one of the most eye-opening I’ve had in a long time, and it’s always such a pleasure to talk with her. I’ve included links to several pieces of media we talk about in this episode, podcasts and articles created by inmates, books written by prison educators, and more, so check out the show notes for those links as well.
John Lennon - The Tragedy of True Crime
Ear Hustle Podcast: “The daily realities of life inside prison shared by those living it, and stories from the outside, post-incarceration”
Have You Heard #202 - College Inside, College Outside
Article - BC Prison Education Program Shatters Stigmas and Builds Better Futures
Article - In prison, I embraced the SEL skills I should have learned in grade school
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Transcript
Introduction to Prison Education Experiences
00:00:00
Speaker
can I talk to some other faculty members just to hear about what their experience is like? And um so I did that. I think I talked to three or four people and all of them said the exact same thing, that going into this medium security prison in central Massachusetts has ended up being far and away the most rewarding teaching of my entire career. It has given me a new lease on life. So that's what they told me. And I have to say, I'm in my third year now and I feel the exact same way.
00:00:35
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Human Restoration Project Podcast. My name is Nick Covington. Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this episode is brought to you by our supporters, three of whom are Janet Clark, Jennifer Mann, and John O'Brien. Thank you so much for your ongoing support.
00:00:50
Speaker
We're proud to have hosted hundreds of hours of incredible ad-free conversations over the years. So if you haven't yet, consider liking and leaving a review in your podcast app to help us reach more listeners.
00:01:01
Speaker
And of course, you can learn more about Human Restoration Project on our website, humanrestorationproject.org, and connect with us everywhere on social media.
Exploring Homeboy Industries
00:01:12
Speaker
Tomorrow, I'll be trading Iowa for a couple days in Los Angeles, where the HRP team will be presenting for the third year at Learning Inspire Ed's Student Power Summit. It's in l LA this year in partnership with Homeboy Industries, the largest gang rehabilitation and re-entry program in the world.
00:01:29
Speaker
The founder, Father Greg Boyle, is quoted on the Homeboy homepage saying, quote, we imagine a world without prisons, and then we try to create that world, end quote. And I'm really looking forward to meeting and talking with the people there to learn more about how Homeboy works.
00:01:46
Speaker
A bit of a facetious question that sticks in my head is, in this high-stakes, data-driven world of schooling, what piece of content or curriculum did these guys miss that would have made the difference?
00:01:57
Speaker
And more seriously, what is it about the environment at Homeboy Industries that schools can learn from?
Jennifer Berkshire's Insights on Prison Education
00:02:04
Speaker
I'll have more on that when I get back. But until we build that world without prisons, there'll need to be programs for incarcerated people and people in transition from prison to public life, too.
00:02:15
Speaker
And that's where this conversation with Jennifer Berkshire came about. Of course, you know Jennifer from her years of hosting the Have You Heard podcast with her co-host Jack Schneider and their co-authored books, The Wolf at the Schoolhouse Door and The Education Wars.
00:02:30
Speaker
But for the past couple of years, Jennifer has also been teaching journalism and education policy in the Boston College Prison Education Program at MCI Shirley, a medium-security prison for men in central Massachusetts.
00:02:44
Speaker
Recording isn't allowed in the prison facility, but in 2025, Jennifer spoke with some of the men in her program who had been released from MCI Shirley and were finishing their degrees on the Boston College campus.
00:02:56
Speaker
And she gave me permission to use those clips here. You know, you're always afraid when you're 50-something years old and you haven't been in school in 35 years, and then you're jumping out the window into this challenge trying to restore, you know, your desire to learn.
00:03:11
Speaker
You're worried. Like, am I going to be able to compete? Am I going to be able to satisfy the professors? Am I going to be able to pass? You know, I don't want to sign up to fail.
00:03:22
Speaker
As you can hear, the program was a life-changing experience for these men. And it's been life-changing for Jennifer, too. This conversation with Jennifer was one of the most eye-opening I've had in a long time, and it's always such a pleasure to talk with her.
00:03:37
Speaker
I've included links to the several pieces of media we reference in this episode, podcasts and articles created by inmates, books written by prison educators, and more. So be sure to check out the show notes for those links as well.
00:03:50
Speaker
It's always a pleasure, Jennifer. I know. This is my favorite topic. I could talk about it all day. For listeners who might be hearing about the program and your participation in it for the first time, like, what is it and how did you get in its orbit? How did you get involved in it, you know?
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, so this story just fits perfectly into what you're always railing about in your work, which is that, you know, I taught for six years at Boston College. And it's become, Boston College started out as basically like the college for the the Irish working class in the Boston area. That's where you would go to become a teacher and a nurse. And then over the last, you know, 15 or so years, it's become more and more competitive. And so my students were, you know, they were really bright and they had spent their entire academic lives trying, you know, that their goal was to get into BC. And once they got there, you know, it was it was really disheartening. Right. They they really didn't care much about.
00:04:54
Speaker
really much at all except for BC. and And I got to a point where I felt like if I have to listen to another podcast about Marathon Monday, I will just lose my mind. And so Jack and I had interviewed, ah the we we do this um graduate student research contest on the podcast. And our winner of one year was the guy who started the BC Prison Education Program, which was new to me. I hadn't heard anything about it. And so he and I became friendly as a result of that episode. And and he asked if I would be interested in teaching in the program. And and at first I was a little, you know, i mean, i wasn't sure what to think. It sounded cool. um And so I asked him, can I talk to some other faculty members just to hear about what their experience is like?
00:05:48
Speaker
And um so I did that. I think I talked to three or four people and all of them said the exact same thing, that going into this medium security prison in central Massachusetts has ended up being far and away the most rewarding teaching of my entire career. It has given me a new lease on life. So that's what they told me. And I have to say I'm in my third year now and I feel the exact same way.
Comparing Incarcerated vs. Traditional Students
00:06:12
Speaker
So how, after talking with the people who were teaching it, how in the world did you prepare for that experience? I mean, other than just hyping yourself up and convincing yourself this is what you wanted to do, then I imagine there comes time to like plan a curriculum or like know how to teach adult learners in the incarceration system, right? Like how did you shift gears from teaching the students who went in a more traditional route to teaching the students in the prison education program?
00:06:41
Speaker
It's so true. And part of it was, you know, i I taught, I started out teaching a class that I've now taught at several different institutions, a class called the Politics of Public Education. So I've taught a version of that at BC, at Yale for several years. And then and then i thought, well, I'm going to try teaching the same thing in the prison. And one thing i heard was, from the people who run the program and the people who teach in it, is that that these students are, in many ways, you know they are on par, if not superior to traditional undergrads. So don't feel like you need to
00:07:20
Speaker
dumb your curriculum down. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to try it. But you're definitely right. there's you know You can only prepare up to a point. And so one of my big questions going into it was, do I want to know what these guys are in, how they ended up in prison? so My dad, who was still alive at the time, said, no, you do not want to know that because that kind of knowledge is going to keep you from forming the kind of bond that's going to make the teaching really meaningful.
00:07:53
Speaker
My husband said, yes, you absolutely need to know. is that just because he wanted to know the of the day? he wanted he wanted to know. He had his doubts about this entire enterprise. and And so, but then, you know, also there's really like, you can get all kinds of instructions about, you know, what to prepare for. For example, I've got a guest coming next week. And so I will prepare her by telling her what time to arrive, what she can and can't wear, what she can bring into the facility. But I can't really bring to life what is essentially... just the worst TSA experience you've ever had, right? That you go in and then, you know, like you're, you're kind of treated as ah someone who is suspicious. So everything you bring in is going to be rifled through, um You're going to be wanded. You're going to walk through a metal detector. You have to lift up your hair and pull out the waistband of whatever you're you're wearing. um And then, you know, we sort of move ah across the facility in a group between one locked area and the next. And then you reach the education building.
00:09:03
Speaker
And suddenly it feels like you're in what could be any average person run-down-ish school in America. And and so I have ah a classroom that feels very much like a typical classroom. And then over the years, as you heard in that podcast episode, the students have really tried to make it feel like part of what they call the Shirley campus of Boston College. That's the name of the prison, MCI Shirley. So we've got, you know, um various banners and there is um a really beautiful podium that the student who runs the woodworking shop in the prison ah carved. And so you you just, you feel like you're in in any other classroom.
00:09:52
Speaker
Jennifer, I'm sure you've experienced so many first days of teaching. And, you know, I can recall over my 10 years, I always had those butterflies, always that anxiety, but also, you know, like the, that that opportunity, you know, like there's that opportunity in the room that you're just trying to tap into. What was that first day of that program like for you?
00:10:14
Speaker
the people who run the program had been, you know, like had really tried to reassure me about what to expect. And so a couple of things they told me was that, you know, like unlike a traditional classroom where getting students involved in the discussion can often be like pulling teeth. You know what that's like, anyone, anyone. Bueller. Yeah. Yeah. The challenge here is that the students have so much to say.
00:10:46
Speaker
So I went in thinking, you know like could this really be true? um and then the other thing that I heard from everyone I talked to was that the the students are actually really good about managing the classroom themselves. right And so like if things get heated for some reason, that it's a student who will always step in and and calm things down. So I thought, well, that's that's kind of reassuring because, you know, like, what if i inadvertently, you know, go in a direction that causes some, you know. Yeah, unaware of what landmine you might have stepped on or whatever.
00:11:24
Speaker
Keep in mind that you know like because this is in a prison, you're also dealing with the Department of Corrections. And and what you're hearing from them is much less inspiring than you're hearing from either the administrators of the the prison education program or the people who teach in it. there like When I had to do my little my orientation with them, their message is basically, these guys are going to try to flip you.
00:11:53
Speaker
And just you know cautioning us that we really couldn't be our full selves in the facility. And so I went in with that in mind. I was thinking, you know like I'm just going to have to like i'm goingnna have to really dial it back.
00:12:08
Speaker
It's like that advice. It's like, don't smile until the second semester or whatever. Yeah. That's exactly what it was like. That you know you could reveal too much about yourself or show weakness. And so I went in feeling like, okay, that's what, you know that's what I'm going to do. And, um and I remember I had told my husband that, you know, like I'm thinking about starting out with a joke about how I love a captive audience.
00:12:36
Speaker
Is that what you went with or did you audible? and he and He said, you know, maybe save that until you have a better sense of of what it's like. Day two. And so um so i I started out with the same assignment that i I use with all of my classes, which is that I always have them interview one another and introduce themselves to the class that way. And it's a great way to get them thinking about how to interview. But what I find is that they're always surprised by what they learn about one another. And keep in mind that, you know, for these students, college means sitting in this one classroom with the same set of other gentlemen day after day. And so to learn something that they don't already know
Educational Journeys and Societal Impact
00:13:24
Speaker
about one of their peers is actually kind of a big surprise. So once I heard how well that went, I i i had a better feeling about the the whole enterprise. um And then I was going to send them, their first assignment was that they, i wanted them to go interview people.
00:13:42
Speaker
people around them about the purpose of education. Again, another assignment that I give to my traditional undergrads. And so we did some you know some interviewing prep, how to get people to open up. And then what totally blew me away was the seriousness with which they approached the assignment. So not only did they interview other inmates, They interviewed people who work at the prison and they interviewed their own family members.
00:14:10
Speaker
And so, so I just like, so by day two, when, when they started sharing what they learned and, and I realized like how, how enthusiastic they were and how much I was going to learn and,
00:14:25
Speaker
At that point, I reached a level of enthusiasm that remains a source of just great amusement to them. And in fact, this semester, um I'm teaching a class where half of the students I've had before and half are new. So when I was introducing myself to the new ones, I said, you know, every week I'm going to show up and I'm going to be in state of such impossible enthusiasm that you're going to think there's probably something wrong with her.
00:14:53
Speaker
You know, perhaps there's some kind of intoxicant involved. That is not the case. This really is just how I am. And the other guys are like nodding around. Yep, it's true. This is how she is.
00:15:06
Speaker
I have to rewind and go back to this what's the purpose of education question because I have to know what what did they find either in their own reflections or from what they got out of their family, the workers at the at the prison. What surprised or inspired you about that?
00:15:22
Speaker
So what was so fascinating was that when I interview when i have traditional undergrads do this assignment, um what they come back with is all of the stuff that you and I are always talking about.
00:15:36
Speaker
forming democratic citizens. um And then of course, you know, like an awful lot of it is about social mobility and getting good jobs, but they're they're talking to the sort of people who know that that's not supposed to be their only answer.
00:15:51
Speaker
So they'll say things like, you know, yeah, I know it's all about getting a good job. I wish it was about more. But that's, you know, that's that's sort of the like when we do our word map on the chalkboard, that is that's the overwhelming part of it is that they're they're in school to get ahead. And so your listeners are probably. familiar with that landmark piece that Jean Anion wrote back in the 80s about the different kinds of schools. And so the students, the incarcerated students, their experiences all reflect the working class schools and that they they have a very strong sense that that
00:16:32
Speaker
The purpose of education is to keep people in line. And and what was what was so interesting was that it wasn't just them, right? Like you could totally see how um somebody who's been in prison for 20 years could reach this conclusion. But it was the people they talked to who worked at the prison. It was their own family members that they all felt like that, it you know, it was not about getting ahead.
00:16:59
Speaker
It was not about democratic citizenship. um It was about maintaining a fairly rigid hierarchy. And so so i i found that so eye-opening and and frankly, like a real wake-up call.
00:17:16
Speaker
So their responses even challenged some of your own preconceived ideas of what school was about and what school is for. um Do you now three years in just continue to, i guess, does the evidence and information that they bring to you continue to point to that trajectory? and Like, where do you think this divide comes in then of here's what, you know, Dr. Berkshire walked in thinking on day one, perhaps about this. And here's what these students are bringing in. Why are those two things so divergent?
00:17:47
Speaker
Well, so one thing that's really interesting is that you have their very complicated relationships to their own K-12 schooling. And typically, like, these are guys who are doing college-level work, right? So they're bright guys. And then something happens. And it could be early on. It could be later on.
00:18:09
Speaker
something happens that knocks them off that path. And so a lot of what they're doing in the class is reflecting on their own educational experiences. And and what part of what what my eyes were really open to was how much of a mystery that often was even to them, right? That all they knew was that that they went from being the the bright kid who loved school school to maybe the class clown, and then getting into more and more trouble, and but never quite understanding how that happened. um And then part of, you know, like getting into this program is is really, you know, kind of excavating that experience, right? Because they... If they have issues with with authority, often that starts with a teacher. um And then I think the other thing that that my eyes were really open to was that the debates that we're often having in education felt very small to them.
00:19:15
Speaker
right And so I would have them read things about the sorts of things that we're all worked up about, you know school type, right like the difference between traditional public schools and charter schools and and voucher schools. and you know And I would have students and they would say, you know like it would this this would have made no difference in my life. that the The kinds of pressures I was under were, you know it was all around me. It was in my community. It was what was happening at home. And so in some ways it made the debates that we're focused on feel feel very small.
00:19:52
Speaker
That makes so much sense. One connection that I'm making to Jennifer is we've we've worked a little bit in with people and with schools that, you know, we'd fit in that alternative education umbrella. Kids who, for whatever reason, couldn't complete high school in a four year time frame, had to come back later as adults and whatever. And I think maybe find some of the same energy like family, community, relationships really matter a lot. And for kids who want to be there, they really identify heavily and bring you know so much of themselves to that program despite all of the struggles.
00:20:27
Speaker
So i I think the lesson that we learn from those alternative education programs is you know here are the canaries in the coal mine that are pointing to the things in the regular system that you know may or may not be working or point to things in society.
00:20:41
Speaker
Do you think that there are any of lessons for what we could bring to K-12 education or common themes that those inmates bring or those students bring to questions about society too that have solutions somewhere?
00:20:57
Speaker
Yeah, so a huge one is obviously the school to prison pipeline, which became real to me in a way that it really never was before, because you could just see how these kids would end up on the wrong side, like the sort of levels of discipline would keep accelerating. And so, you know, you'd have somebody who gets suspended at age 13 and never goes back.
00:21:22
Speaker
you know like So many of these students, they're in prison because of something related to gangs. um And one of them, I had like his light bulb moment where, again, you know really bright guy who he attended the school that Debbie Meyer started in Boston. right I was really surprised at how many of these guys had parents who who were educators and had really like pushed for them to be in the gifted program.
00:21:51
Speaker
Their parents were there really like loud advocates, but then, you know, things begin to happen that are beyond the control of the family or the school. And so this guy basically ends up, by the time he's in high school, he ends up in what has become a notorious gang database in Boston. And so basically the police maintain this enormous database and they're constantly looking for signs that you might be in a gang. And and you know like some of the the signs could be you know where you live and who you associate with. And so he was doing some research for his project in the class. The final project is a TED Talk.
00:22:31
Speaker
And so he had asked me if I could find some information about the gang database. And so I find him an article from the Harvard Law Review. I bring it in, and he sees in one of the footnotes that he's mentioned as as a 15-year-old. And it was like he he made sense. light bulb went off. right He made sense of his educational journey because it was he never understood, like, how how did I go from being this kid in Debbie Meyer's school who loved school To to being like basically i idea, ID'd as a young criminal. How did that happen?
00:23:12
Speaker
And then typecast and put on a track. Yeah. And there and then, you know, the track is like is the track is ruthlessly efficient. Right. That like once you are on that track, it is really hard to get off.
00:23:26
Speaker
And it just seems like every step of the way is just more dehumanizing and distancing from the things that might otherwise, you know, put you in ah in a different life had you been treated differently or had you had different circumstances. oh And I think, you know, so I think that's a big part of it. But one thing that I've really learned, because these, you know, the guys write a lot about themselves and their experiences. I'm teaching a journalism class this semester. And so like that's been great because each week we work on learning some skill that's fundamental to great storytelling. So right now they're working on an assignment where they have to write a scene where you know a scene in which they're present, but then they have to do a reported scene in which they're not present. So i will get some amazing stuff. But because I'm constantly reading about them and their worlds, one thing that I've really learned is that when you end up on that track we were just talking about,
00:24:29
Speaker
your It becomes really important to you that you be perceived in in a particular way, like you be perceived as tough. So you like you start to act in a way that you know like you want people to be scared of you. Because you know it was such a mystery to me. you know like I would interact with these guys and I would think he is absolutely brilliant.
00:24:55
Speaker
how could he possibly have ended up in a situation where he shot somebody in the parking lot of a nightclub because they stepped on his foot? right like this this stuff I think for for many of us, this is the sort of thing that absolutely, it's impossible for us to make sense of. But you start to understand that you know like this guy began to see himself in a particular way. And it was really important that the world around him see him in that way too. And then this, you know they a lot of them, in addition to being in school, they're also in all sorts of you know like trauma groups and what's the, ah what's you know sort of social and emotional learning stuff. So they're they're learning how to process what happened to them, but also how to keep it from happening
Humanities Education's Transformative Power
00:25:45
Speaker
again. So they they tend to be very open.
00:25:48
Speaker
with you know with what they're learning about themselves. And so as a result, I learn a lot too, um including stuff that I just, you know like really was a mystery to me.
00:26:01
Speaker
I want to come to this question of like the humanities, because from what you're talking about here about journalism and storytelling, I'm thinking of the the perspectives in that podcast where the the students are talking about Plato, they're talking about sharing poetry, and shifting those tough guy personas from, oh how many fights did you get into, you know, how much did you read in the in the text or whatever. And I'm wondering if you could just speak to that, like, Everything that I heard in that episode and I hear from you just emphasizes the humanities as sort of a touch point for them to reconnect with with themselves and with society.
00:26:40
Speaker
Yeah. So this is, you know, Boston College is a Jesuit school. and And so the program really reflects that. The program is really heavy on the liberal arts. And so a lot of the faculty who are coming in, and there's huge demand to teach in the program, are faculty from the liberal arts. And and I thought that was so interesting. The students who I interviewed are students who have been released from prison and are now on campus at BC, which is how I was able to interview them. That's right. There's no recording in the prison. But I thought it was so interesting that they all said that their favorite classes were were classes that really reflected the humanities, poetry, um ah philosophy, and how how it just, you know, it really opened their eyes. And then, you know, another another really key difference, you know we often bemoan the fact that that education has been reduced in this country to nothing more than the acquisition of human capital. Well, that looks really different. If you're getting a degree in the liberal arts, that's what they're working on. They're getting a bat of full bachelor's degree from Boston College in the liberal arts.
00:27:54
Speaker
And for like for many of these guys, they're going to get that degree while they're still behind bars. And some of them, will not they're not going to be released. And so so you're you have no reason to think about that degree as solely about employment.
00:28:11
Speaker
Now, I will say that their mindset does seem to shift a little bit when they get onto campus and they start to think much more like typical undergrads. And so like some of the guys you heard from who were so excited about Plato and poetry immediately changed their majors to very concrete, you know, their cybersecurity,
00:28:37
Speaker
Okay. Something you get a certificate in and put it on the LinkedIn profile. Exactly. Okay. God, that is that's so interesting. Almost like that's an adaptive skill almost that they need in the world outside of ah the the prison is having some certificate to leverage into employment while everything else, I don't know, it was a bridge to get them out of the prison in the first place. I don't know. It's it's yeah it's an interesting kind of circle to square.
00:29:07
Speaker
It's really true. And then, you know, the like in many ways, I had a friend, a journalist friend come last year to speak and, you know, she was really nervous. And I was like, oh, don't worry about it. They're going to love you. And she talked to them about crypto and they just they they loved her. And and later she said, you know, I feel like they're the last true students.
00:29:30
Speaker
And that for what for partly because of the reasons I was just describing that there's still a sense in which they're learning for the sake of learning. but then so many of the things that we complain about as teachers, whether you're K-12 or higher ed, are simply not a factor when you're teaching behind bars. They don't have phones. They use a really, really clunky version of something like Canvas, but it's strictly one way, right? I can communicate with them, but they can't communicate back.
00:30:02
Speaker
They have tablets, but they're not connected to the world. Right. And so like I'm constantly having to get on my students at Yale about, you know, like each week there are more laptops and I'll be sitting right next to a student and I can see that, you know, she's busy. Click, click, clicking away.
00:30:23
Speaker
and and, you know, I have to get more. i have to get stern. And that is simply not the case. with them. And so in some ways, you know, it's it's not just that the humanities still mean something and we get to like, you get to witness the redemptive power of something like philosophy, which we're so enthusiastic about, ah but also just there's like that sense that they're just, they're really excited to be learning is it's so different from being teaching on a regular
Post-Release Transition and Challenges
00:30:55
Speaker
campus. Wow.
00:30:57
Speaker
So speaking of their future, that is obviously a question I wanted to ask is just like, where do these students go then with their experience, with their education, with the diplomas that they get that don't say ah the prison program? It's just a Boston College program there. What where do they go from there?
00:31:15
Speaker
So the program is not that old. it's only It was started in 2019. And one of the things that's been so impressive is seeing how the administration at Boston College has really taken it seriously. So a lot of the stuff that's happening is a work in progress. There are now, um i think they're getting close to 18 students who've been released from prison and have gone to campus to either finish their degree or to supplement it in some way. And so one of the things that they've you know realized right away is just how much additional support these students need, not just as students, but as making this transition. So in a few weeks, I'm going to go to campus. I'm working on a project with some of the guys um who've been newly released. We're recording audio diaries about their their transition from from ah prison to campus. And one of the students was in prison for 35 years. You know, he's been, he was in prison since he was a teenager and he's only out because Massachusetts finally changed its law. And so can you imagine, like he's fortunate enough to have, um he has strong family ties, but a lot of the guys don't have that. And so one of the gentlemen who was featured in the podcast episode is now, um he's now working in the program to be almost like a transition navigator. oh I love that.
00:32:49
Speaker
A mentor, a mentorship program for these guys who are leaving. that's That's right. So there's a lot of stuff like that. And then like figuring out ah how to find them employment is a huge deal because even though employers talk a good talk about this stuff, the job openings tend to be low level, right? Like they're not looking for low level employment. They think of themselves as college grads.
00:33:15
Speaker
For the other guys, that's kind of the people who are still in the facility. you know Every summer, there's a real graduation ceremony with a tent. And the faculty all wear their ridiculous robes. There's um there's a little you know like a string quartet.
00:33:33
Speaker
what The experience of being college student radically raises the expectations of these guys. And once they finish the program and they're still behind bars, they lose a lot of privileges. And so there's a lot of conversation right now about how to like what else could BC do? what about um What about offering some master's level classes? um So I'm actually thinking about pitching a class to them about writing for publication. Because there, you know, there there are some fantastic writers.
00:34:07
Speaker
And so, you know, what if we did like a serious seminar with guys who have finished their degrees, but are going to be, they're going to remain incarcerated, you know, some of them are not going to get out.
00:34:21
Speaker
it changes that conception that we were talking about, that image of themselves that led to the responses and actions that put them on the other side of the criminal justice system, now changing their self-conception towards a different trajectory, but then having every other part of society try to stuff them back in ah back in line and back in a box. ah Yeah, there has to be other programs and transitions and other supports when those guys get out.
00:34:51
Speaker
And I wonder, Jennifer, do you have a sense of how the BC program fits it all into other national programs, either in the state of Massachusetts, New England, or throughout the country? Like, is it unique in what it does? Or is there a model that works there and elsewhere, you know?
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah, so there are um there are tons of these programs now, um but there are a few things that I think make the program really unique. And one is that you will often find that some big name school, Yale, for example, has a program, but the students aren't actually getting a degree from Yale. And you can understand why, right? Because young Nick's parents might encourage him to commit a crime just so he could get and get a degree from Yale. Oh my goodness. There would be like a varsity blues scandal, but instead of admissions, it would be criminal. Exactly, exactly. So so you're in the, there's ah a Yale prison program, but the degree comes from New Haven College, right? And I think that's actually true for a lot of these, especially the as you go up the college food chain. So BC is unique in that way in that it's a full diploma from Boston College. um And then the other that piece about students then going to to campus once they're released, um that is also quite unique. um So, but I know that the, you know, the program, the administrators who are just amazing work really closely with all kinds of other programs to try to figure out you know, like how to be a movement for, for prison education and, you and scale it up a bit, because it's still, it's really hard to get these programs started. And and you're you know you're constantly doing battle with the whoever oversees the the prisons in your state,
Reflections and Resources on Prison Education
00:36:44
Speaker
right? Like they like you can really feel when you're in there, all the contradictory you know sort of sort of impulses, like are people being rehabilitated?
00:36:57
Speaker
We've talked a lot about, you know, your expectations going into it and how, I guess, just enamored with the with the program and its lease on life for both the students and for yourself. Is there just a takeaway that you would want listeners to have? Like, what do you wish just more people understood about the work like yours that's happening within these prison education programs?
00:37:19
Speaker
I just really encourage if if anyone, if you ever have the opportunity to do anything like this, do it. um and you know and And part of what I've been really affected by is just my my understanding of the world has grown much more nuanced. We didn't talk about this at all because I think that people probably make certain assumptions about the kinds of students we're talking about. So I'll tell you that my class This semester, it's the most racially diverse class I've ever taught. So it's half half of the students are white, but there's also like a really stark divide about how the students feel about quote unquote woke.
00:38:02
Speaker
So last year, it was much more about the, you know, they there were there was a group of students who, in their words, you they were just sick of always hearing about race.
00:38:15
Speaker
And some of them were quite enamored of our president. This semester, I'm feeling something slightly different, which is that the the students, my anti-Voke students, feel like the emphasis on things like structural racism is an excuse. And that that that by putting so much emphasis on that, students, their peers, are basically...
00:38:44
Speaker
sort of rendering themselves helpless. And so this comes up in, you know, like in, ah in many of our discussions, because we're, know, we read a piece of journalism every week and, you know, I, I make a point of assigning things that I think are gonna, going to, inspire some kind of kind of reaction. um So it's an amazing experience to do this kind of teaching because you really do learn so much about the world.
00:39:15
Speaker
And then, you know, just like for me, the the fact that the writing they produce is it's so they have such interesting things to say. They are wrestling with huge questions about guilt and innocence, about, you know, rehabilitation. And then what I try to do, like I'm paying attention to their assignments each week and thinking, and OK, he's going to write a big paper and he's going to present it as a TED talk.
00:39:42
Speaker
how How could we pick a topic for him that's something that that he really cares about? So I've got one one student, one of my more conservative students, and I'm convinced that there is an inner novelist in there.
00:39:56
Speaker
And I'm going to nudge him in that direction. There's no other way to say it. It's just really rewarding teaching of the sort that, you know, like we don't often get to experience,
00:40:10
Speaker
I'm so curious to what are there any books that you read or things that you consulted or resources that we could point people to if they wanted to, i guess, learn more about students in these contexts and programs like these. Like, I'm not aware of like a literature base for this kind of thing. do you Do you know anything that we could point people to?
00:40:35
Speaker
Yeah, so there's actually quite a bit now. And and the reason for that is that there's there's a lot of interest in prison journalism. um So there's a guy who has a new book out. His name is John Lennon, and he is, ah you made a face, not Lennon like the Bolshevik or the musician. Yeah, that's what I was thinking of.
00:40:58
Speaker
So he has he's ah ah incarcerated at Sing Sing in New York, and he now has quite a high profile as a prison journalist. He writes for Esquire and the New York Times, and he has a new book out called The Tragedy of True Crime.
00:41:13
Speaker
um so I really encourage people to check out his work. There's also a terrific podcast called Ear Hustle that's produced by inmates at San Quentin, in California. And and I think it's also just just amazing. it It really inspired me.
00:41:32
Speaker
So yeah, so there's there's actually quite a bit out there that that people can find and see if there's something you know going on in their state. At least where I am in and New England, there's actually fierce competition among the different colleges and universities to offer these programs. And so so ah the prison where I go you know has tons of different programs. So Tufts is there, but then also the the local community college. um
00:42:05
Speaker
ah The BC program just expanded into the women's prison in Massachusetts. And so they're, you know, like, I think there's faculty here about the rewards of this. They want in on it. And I think also it's a little bit of reputation washing for the the colleges, right? That they're, you know, they're they're doing something.
00:42:28
Speaker
so yeah, so it's out there. other than just having ah faculty show up in the Epstein files or something. exactly Right, exactly. Like, that's really funny that, you know, like the, you know, the originator of all this stuff is barred.
00:42:44
Speaker
and And the president of Bard is all over the Epstein files. Oh, really? Oh, my goodness. So it is a little bit of an elite atonement, perhaps, that we can see this through? Definitely. And I do. I think that the BC thing is a little bit different because I i think the Jesuit stuff turns out to be...
00:43:03
Speaker
really important, but those guys are generally above board. The Jesuits. They can be. They can be. Yeah. ah Well, that's awesome, Jennifer. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me about this today.
00:43:15
Speaker
You're welcome. As you can tell, I really could talk about it all day. And um let me know, um maybe we could arrange for you to come and and do a visit. I would absolutely love that. in ah In a heartbeat, we'll have to talk about it. That's incredible. Thank Thank you again and for listening to our podcast at Human Restoration Project. I hope this conversation leaves you inspired and ready to start making change.
00:43:39
Speaker
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00:43:50
Speaker
Thank you.