Transcript
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Speaker: Welcome to the Drakknecht & Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games of the people who make them. I'm Saren from Drakknecht & Friends, and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazelden, the head Drakknecht at Drakknecht & Friends.
Speaker: Hi there. Today, we're joined by William David, who you may know from his work on games like Looking for Fael and other works at Swing Swing Submarine. How are you doing today?
Speaker: Hi, Saren. Hi, Alan. Hi, everyone. I'm doing fine. Awesome. ah So can you introduce yourself with what you do and how long you've been doing it Yeah, so I am mostly a designer, a game designer. ah I also love doing level design.
Speaker: And I do this for, I've done that for maybe 15 years, a little bit more, I think. And yes, I love to walk in the streets, to walk in nature. I love music. That's why s swings Swing Swing Sunmarine has a ah music themed name. And yeah, that's it.
Speaker: Awesome. ah What got you into game development? Oh, okay. So first I wanted to work in the movie industry. I wanted to to direct, I wanted to write, I wanted to edit ah films, movies.
Speaker: And what guided me to to the video game industry instead of the movies, it's because I have been trainee on some movies, in French movies, and I hated it.
Speaker: It was really awful. ah people in Paris, because I'm not from Paris, I'm from, we can say the countryside in France, but ah everything that is outside Paris is countryside.
Speaker: So I was not in Paris, but I worked in Paris during my trainee periods. And yeah, it was awful. The people were really not nice with each other. so It was a dream since the beginning, since I was very young to work in the movies industries. And at this point, I said, no, never. I will never do that. So ah I was playing, of course, since I was very young. So suddenly I discovered that, aim
Speaker: games are are made by people. So I could make games also. So yeah, at the at the very beginning, play um working ah in games was for me a way to to tell stories. And after that, I've discovered that it doesn't work like cinema. It's very different. And yeah.
Speaker: And what were you doing on on movies? And like how how many of those skills were directly transferable? I was just a ah student, you know, but my main ah my main um a domain of work was editing.
Speaker: So I think what I have transferred to video games is the way to tell stories maybe, ah to ah maybe, yeah, edit edit sequences and think ah in sequences in games.
Speaker: So I think that's ah how i I transferred my movie skills, if I can say that. But of course, I have learned a lot in in a video game school after and in Ubisoft because before being what we call ah indie, I worked at Ubisoft first.
Speaker: And what did you work on when you were there? At Ubisoft? Yeah. um I was in the editorial team. So even if I never had made a game, to just a student game, ah i i was ah ah someone telling dev teams how to make their games. ah But i never I never made games before. So yeah, it was really strange. It was not my my favorite part of the of my career.
Speaker: Looking back at it, do you think that you were giving them good feedback? If I was doing good? I don't think so. I don't think so. No, no, no, no.
Speaker: No, I'm a slow learner, you know. So ah being out of school and so talking ah with teams, I was really shy, I think, also. So ah so no, no, no, I was not good at the at it. No, no. I was just ah ah saying exactly what I had learned and that's all.
Speaker: Right. ah when When did you decide to strike out and start working on your own games? Yeah. ah A little bit after that, after the editorial part ah in Ubisoft, I was in a dev team at Ubisoft.
Speaker: And it was i I was um really interested in casual games first. So the big fish games, the flash games and stuff like that.
Speaker: And a little bit later, it was the the rise of the... I don't want to say first because it's not true, but the the successful indies, you know, so Super Meat Boy, Bread, Fez also.
Speaker: And yeah, that's, I think, at the ah it's very shameful to say that, but I think I wanted to prove myself and prove to others that I was also able to to make games by my own. And, you know, being in a big company,
Speaker: you are not responsible completely if a game ah is a success or is a failure. And there was a lot of ah games being created at Ubisoft and being killed during production or even before production. So because I didn't like that, the fact that I am working on a game and someone very far from from my team can decide that now the the game is stopped. ah ah I really wanted to be like Phil Fish and like other are very famous games. indie developers at this point. So that's why um i started being ah ah making games by my own, because I really wanted to make there ah make the games by by myself and with my rules. And that's it.
Speaker: And maybe I wanted to be famous, but no. Not now. Not now. Do you do you remember when you stopped wanting to be famous? ah I think wanted to be famous at some point, but it worked. I mean, I was, I'm not famous, of course, but I was famous enough. So now I just don't want to be famous again. The right people knew who you were.
Speaker: yeah Yes, exactly that that that is exactly my level of interest is do the people who make video games in the games industry, like if if you get ah get a bunch of people in a room and someone says Saren, is someone else in the room going to know who I am? If the answer is yes, that's exactly the level I've made it. And I do not want anything yeah because I feel like if I'm getting more famous, it's probably for something bad.
Speaker: And also when you are maybe not famous, but if ah people know you before you know them, it's really strange. It's ah really strange. So I don't like that now. so So talk to me about your first game, Blocks That Matter, as Switching Submarine.
Speaker: Yeah, so Blocks That Matter, we when when we started when I started creating games, I was not alone. i made um I participated to the very first Global Game Jam. And I told ah someone at Ubisoft whose name was Guillaume that I wanted to create games by myself. And he was also about to quit the Ubisoft. So when I quit Ubisoft, I quit with Guillaume.
Speaker: So we were two. And ah first, we wanted to make a game with ah fox being able to change seasons and stuff like that. that was ah That will be later our third game.
Speaker: ah So we started creating prototypes from ah for this game and it was not really working because ah even if you work in Ubisoft, you don't know how to make games, you know?
Speaker: you You know how to make one part of the game, but you don't know to make games. So we we learned it the hard way. And we made ah two prototypes starting to find funds to fund these games. And it was not working at all.
Speaker: So we received a letter from the French administration at some point because we also created a company, Swing Swing Submarine, at this point in 2009. And they were asking for a lot of money and we were broke. So we didn't understand. What we understood was that we were never ah we would not be able to create seasons after after for right now.
Speaker: It's the the game that we have created later. So this game with the Fox and the Seasons, we had to ditch it and make a game very quickly to to to earn money and maybe be able to pay what we had to pay to the French government.
Speaker: So that's how Blocks That Matter started. ah we had very few time to make a game Guillaume had this idea to mix Mario and Tetris together. I think it was also very trendy at this point ah in other games.
Speaker: So we mixed Mario, Minecraft and Tetris all together. And in six months, we we had a game. And ah you managed to sell it and earn enough money to give to the government?
Speaker: Yeah, but we also learned later that ah it was not the right amount and it was less. So so it was just an automatic mail, ah you know, an automatic letter. So later so ah yeah, but it worked. It worked because even if the game was made for the Xbox Live indie games first, the the the indie ah section in the Xbox Live Arcade,
Speaker: services. um Later, we were ah very lucky to be um to have the game on Steam when Steam was closed and ah to later i have a bundle with Humble Bundle when Humble Bundle had only one bundle at a time.
Speaker: So it was a long time ago. ah Yes. I've seen that now there are maybe 20 bundles or 30 bundles at a time. Yeah, Humble now has so many bundles going at a time that you can go to their homepage and they will not show all of the bundles that are currently running. Not so humble. No, I mean, as soon as they got acquired by a massive media conglomerate, Ziff Davis, it was like, okay, well...
Speaker: i can I can see where this is going. um Talk to me about the um creation of Tetrabot and co. So if you wanted to be making ah Seasons After Fall, which is the third game, like you said, the Fox season game, um what what led to you making another game in the middle?
Speaker: So um we really wanted to be a good student, you know, in the video game industry. So we wanted to create games with fans, public fans and the publisher.
Speaker: And we We knew at this time that creating Seasons After Fall without public founder, without a publisher was impossible for us. At least it was what we thought this time. So we made demand, I don't know what to say, but we asked for funding to the public administration.
Speaker: And to show them that we knew how to make games, we wanted to make just a second game first before making Seasons After Fall because it was too big. um So...
Speaker: It was not very um smooth. you know and When we finished Blocks That Matter, we didn't want to create Tetrobot & Co. this game particularly. We just wanted to make a second game.
Speaker: And first, we first we we made some tests with the mobilebi mobile games because ah it was trendy at this time.
Speaker: And it didn't work. we We were not on the same ah level of communication with Guillaume. And the when we saw that we would never be able to create a a good game like this, and that ah we decided to go back to what we liked together making together. And it was ah a block game with cubes and a grid. And we decided to create a sequel, even if at the at the very beginning beginning we didn't want it to.
Speaker: But for this SQL, we wanted to delete the platform ah part of Blocks That Matter because we understood after Blocks That Matter was released that ah a puzzlezzr ah ah someone that likes to play puzzles don't necessarily like to play action game.
Speaker: ah We like that, ah puzzle plus action. But for some people, the platform part of Blocks.Matter was ah like a blocker to enjoy the puzzle part. So we decided, OK, we need to make a pure puzzle game.
Speaker: And that's how we decided to make Tetrobot & Co. based on some rules that were on blogs that matter, but just with one one touch one touch on screen, on mobile or on tablet, and one ah mouse button on PC.
Speaker: Awesome. And then from after that, well I'm sure we'll dig in. I know Alan has a lot to talk about with Tetrabot and co. Tetrabot is an all-timer. I really love it.
Speaker: But sort of to complete to continue the story, after that, did you were you able to get the funding from Public Fund for Seasons After Fall?
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. We had the public found. we ah um and after Tetrobot & Co., we we have made a third prototype for our season after fall, more modern, and with everything that we have learned from Blocks That Matter and Tetrobot & Co. And we went to see ah Focus, Focus Interactive, with also Pull Up now.
Speaker: ah the The name is Pull Up. It has changed a little bit. And um they were very happy to see that we had a journey and that we we knew ah how to make games now because we we have seen we we had seen them ah before with the very first prototypes and they were not very impressed.
Speaker: So now they were they were okay to sign Seasons After Fall. So that's how we have made Seasons After Fall because we I think it was the the the good way to do it. And yeah, but at this time, the the team was bigger. So on Blocks That Matter and Tetrobot & Co., we were two or three at the beginning. Then maybe three, four, and four seasons, we were 10.
Speaker: And the budget was bigger bigger than than ever. Even if... To be honest, it's very small compared to to other other games. so ah yeah and ah To make Seasons After Fall, think you have played Seasons After Fall. It's not really ah a pure puzzle game. It was really more like a story. and exploration and preserv puzzle parts also.
Speaker: But yeah, it's a game we wanted to make since a long time. And we finally had the chance to do it. and ah yeah it It was really nice to finish it, but making it was awful. was Maybe not awful, but it was really difficult. and Many one such examples.
Speaker: Yeah, but but that's that's because i think during the production of Seasons, I realized that it was the game that I wanted to make. few years ago, but now that I was inside, it was not what i wanted to do i wanted to make puzzle games. I didn't want to make a a game with a story.
Speaker: um So, yeah, but but ah I'm very happy that we have made it because in terms of art, purely art and ah music, the game is is is excellent. But in terms of game design and level design, I don't like it that much. Hmm.
Speaker: That's a shame. um so what was So you released that Seasons After Fall in 2016. And then you just released Looking for Fial this year. Ten years after. Ten years after.
Speaker: From your perspective, what what did you learn during those ten years? the During those 10 years, I've learned that ah that I still needed money to make games. That's true. That's very true.
Speaker: Yeah. So the reason why we have stopped making games for a few years is because we we we didn't have money. So I... Did you go off and get it a day job?
Speaker: Yes, but at Ubisoft again. So, and on Beyond Good and Evil 2. Telling people how to make games again? No, no, no, not this time. This time you were on the very, very real video game that's definitely going to shift Beyond Good and Evil 2. Yeah, sure. Sure, sure. You know, you do not have to comment on that. I'm bringing my own perspective onto this. I will not comment on that. But for some time, it was really nice because I was really focused on the let's make AAA games.
Speaker: ah And after two years, I was less interested in it. so And also two years after that, I've seen that finally, Seasons After Fall was ah making money.
Speaker: And maybe it was a good time to to to create games by myself again. So because the Ubisoft part was ah quite harsh at the end, COVID plus ah ah harassment stuff happening at Ubisoft at this time. So I took one year ah working with pasta games Pasta Games, a very small ah French developer that I love.
Speaker: and they are ah we can say that they are a mentor ah for Blocks That Matter and Tetravoet and Co. So they were a mentor. So working with them ah was really really cool to to build confidence again and And ah yeah, after that, I talked with the one guy that i that I knew from a long time ago, a guy that was very autodidact on games. And this guy is called Thomas.
Speaker: And... the When we talked at this time, ah we we we discovered that we loved Myst. And that's how we we decided to work together to to create a Myst-like game. And that's what will become Looking for File five years later.
Speaker: Yeah, in 2021. 2021, yes, November. So the first prototype, we made it in three months. It looked like ah The Witness, but a bad one. But The Witness, ah we ah we only added the the retro puzzles, you know, the puzzles that were built on Tetrobot and Co rules.
Speaker: And we made a ah second prototype ah with more environmental puzzles, ah more like ah the missed part that ah we missing that was missing.
Speaker: And the we didn't want it to have a publisher, but just for the sake of just trying to pitch the game. we We have tried with Arte and Arte said, okay, the game is is good for us. So we signed with Arte. But at the very beginning, it was not ah ah our goal to to sign with the publisher.
Speaker: And after that, the the game went a little bit bigger and the team were was a little bit bigger also. ah Unfortunately, that's when ah after the vertical slice, so it was in 2023,
Speaker: twenty twenty free ah Thomas decided to to stop working on the game. So I lost, um yeah, at this time I've lost my my my my partner, my work partner.
Speaker: So we found someone else to work on the code part, the programming part. La Poule Noire, the studio La Poule Noire.
Speaker: And yeah, we have made the game. So again, little bit bigger for us to looking for is a little bit big. The budget is a little bit too big. So we made, I've made this mistake again.
Speaker: But yeah, now now i I know that I don't want to make big games. ah Five years with was a lot.
Speaker: i think I think you and Alan might be able to agree there. um I mean, at the start, how long did you think the project would take? When we were still thinking that we should make the game just just together, like the two two of us, it was maybe like six months or a year, maybe be maximum, year and a half.
Speaker: But it took five five years. And is that because you you you got more funding than you're expecting to? So you're like ah, we can expand the team, we can make this a better game. Exactly. That's the mistake that I've made. But I think I would make this mistake again. If if I had to do it again, i would make it again. Because working with Arte was really nice.
Speaker: ah they They really helped me um us making the game a little bit more accessible that than it was in our head. So it was really really nice working with them. But yeah, the the problem when when sometimes you have more funding, you expand the team and you create even more problems.
Speaker: so So money is not ah will not save you, you know? it's not a It's not a solution all the time. It's not a solution, yeah. yeah Not so not in in every not not ah every time, yeah.
Speaker: No. but But really, I love looking for files. And I'm really happy ah to have made it with without it. Awesome, yeah. Are you in the prototyping phase now, or are you just like resting after shipping such a big game?
Speaker: I'm totally in the resting part. And at the end of the the development of Looking for File, I also worked ah as a guide in the animal park.
Speaker: Oh. oh Because I had to find money for myself. Of course. Yeah, I wanted the money to fund the other ah member team members. So I didn't want it to to take it for me.
Speaker: So for myself. And also I was i was a little bit tired of video games. So I decided to to work ah in Anonymous Park. And I've done it the last two summers. So...
Speaker: So now I am resting. i wanted to work in ah in a school, but he didn't work I didn't make it to the the recruitment phase. So I think now I will learn Godot.
Speaker: ah And it's the best thing I can do because i am a a game designer, but I'm not very technical. And that's a problem for a game designer nowadays. So i I need to be more technical.
Speaker: ah Yes. Drack Naked Friends loves Godot, so come it comes recommended. Everyone loves Godot. Yes. What's not to love?
Speaker: Apparently the art pipeline, but that's it.
Speaker: All right, Alan, I'll unleash you to ask all your questions about Tetra Bot and Co. now.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, ah I guess we've covered some of the development timelines for of the games, but not all of them. You said you made Box That Matter in six months. How long did Tetra Bot take to come together?
Speaker: year and a half when we decided to do it. So it was a little bit longer, but it's because we were also little a little bit less ah naive and we overthought a lot of stuff.
Speaker: But I think it's also because ah in blogs on Blogs That Matter, I made the visuals, ah the in-game visuals. And in Tetrobot & Co, we had someone else working on it.
Speaker: So it was also a part of the time being a manager, you know starting to be a manager. ah managing a team. So I had to do the level design still, but I also had to do something else. that I think that's why we we we took a little bit of time.
Speaker: And also because we we had money, so we could take time. I really loved working on Tetrobot & Co. because at this point, because I was not technical, Guillaume made level editor for myself.
Speaker: This is the level editor that you can see in game, by the way. And ah even if the game was made in Unity, I was just playing all day long, you know, in the level editor. So it was really, really smooth for me to to work on Tetrobot & Co.
Speaker: And I loved the the fact that ah contrary to Blocks That Matter, the levels in Tetrobot & Co are screens that you can explore, but screens like in Binding of Isaac.
Speaker: That was our reference at this point. And it was easier for me to create game situations and to to say to the player, okay, so ah focus on that, please. And then focus on that and maybe ah create a link. opposed to blocks that matter. It's like just like, you can have a really big room and the camera will just pan around it. Yes, yes. yes and And the rooms were really big sometimes. Yeah.
Speaker: and you can And in blocks that matter, you could ah lose a level, being blocked in a level, without knowing also. So yeah, creating a ah sections, creating screens was better to create puzzles.
Speaker: So, yeah, I've took everything that I've learned from Ubisoft with the ah what we call the rational game design, rational level design, and I've tried to to use these rules that I'd learned ah to create a good um ah progression difficulty curve for Tetrobot & Co.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think ah it turned out great. Did you find there was a big difference in reaction to how people received Blocks That Matter to how people received Tetrobot & Co.?
Speaker: ah For Tetrobot & Co., we will never know because ah it was a failure, a total failure. The the game is is really good, I think.
Speaker: But the we we have not the made marketing or communication ah at the release. So very few people know Tetrable 10 co. exists.
Speaker: But what I've loved about Tetrable 10 co. is that it was really easy to to to get into, you know. you ah in In an event, ah we had this big TV, this very big ah TV with a touchscreen and having think people trying the game, ah touching the this big screen was ah really nice.
Speaker: um I think we've managed to make... a to make a puzzle game at this point. We managed to make a pure puzzle game and ah to see a lot of people of different ah um ages, for example, or casuals and mid-core and even core players. ah Altogether, they they they were able finally too to play the game with no ah with no blocker with the the user experience. you know
Speaker: So, and and since Tetrobot & Co, my favorite a way to play games is just with the mouse, just with one click. I don't want more ah mar buttons.
Speaker: So is your next game going to be mouse only? Yes, because it is not, as you can see with ah Looking for File. ah During the the development of Looking for File, because we have decided to to make the first person puzzle game, and we used ZQ as WASD control team on PC.
Speaker: ah During the development, i was I was thinking, I think we should have done this another way. you know ah more like a VR vr yeah game. not Not in VR, but with a VR controller. Or like a MIST style. Or MIST style. Yeah, click to where you want to go.
Speaker: Exactly, exactly. Something like that. So yes, if I'm doing another game in this genre, in the escape puzzle style of game, I wanted to to make it so more simple with the controls.
Speaker: I think the first person is not for everyone. First person with the free control. That's interesting because I also feel like click to move around the 3D space is also not for everyone.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, but um I think I want my mom to play it, you know, the next one. So, so i yeah, I need to work on the controls ah even even more. Yeah, there's there's definitely big wins for approachability. Yeah.
Speaker: but it feels like they would be a little offset by um people who do like first-person experiences, like kind of going like, oh, this is awkward. Why can't I just walk around? yeah And maybe maybe it's solvable if you've got the right framing device or if you make it feel retro enough that it feels natural.
Speaker: um but have you Have you both played ah Looking for File? I played it a little. Okay, you you can play it just with with your mouse, you know. Using the right click, you can walk just using the right click. So even if it's not very explicit, ah you you can play it with just a mouse. So the right click and the left click. Did you get your mom to try playing it with that mode?
Speaker: Not yet, not yet, but I love playing it like that. Mm-hmm. And for Tetrobot and Coal, because ah maybe you have more questions about it, but my my goal was really to create the blocks, you know the the blocks of matter with the the wood, the fire, and the sand, to make sure that a block was ah not used for a single case. you know Wood is interesting because it can stick to wood, but it it can also stop... ah It can burn with lasers and it can stop the electricity laser ah beam.
Speaker: So for every block that we... wanted to create, my rule was to have blocks that can have synergies all together and multiple use. every Every block type is interesting in some way when combined with every other block type. Exactly.
Speaker: yeah That was the the main goal. um Were there any interactions where that led to you? You were like, oh, well, I guess this and this needs to do something and you put them together. Oh, well, what if they did this? And it was like really an exciting thing that didn't come out of the original design for a block type.
Speaker: With the slimes, with the slimes. How to kill the slimes. ah Because in the TROBOT, you launch the the blocks. And of course, we we wanted to have slimes again in the in the game. So it was obvious that the slimes should stick to the block and create a sticky surface, depending on how you launch, you you you throw the the block.
Speaker: So yeah, that was the the most interesting part that I came with. Finally, the the the slimes were not just enemies, they were allies with the blocks.
Speaker: Yeah, it's been a long time since they played the game. But ah yeah, that that sense of combinatorial design is like a real strength of it. It feels like it's exploring the possibility space in a really satisfying way, but also in a really approachable way. Like I i think the difficulty curve on the game is great.
Speaker: um Some levels are a little bit too long, I think. So that's what I would change if I had to to make another one. you You were working on it for a year and a half. How much of that time was like finding the game and how much of it was like, oh, you know you know what this is and you're just making it better?
Speaker: um Just like Blocks That Matter, finding the game was quite quick. It was like maybe one or two months, I think. Because it was obvious, you know, we we had the time to think about what we had done wrong with Blocks That Matter and what we have done right.
Speaker: So when we started, because we we we didn't create Tetrabot & Co. right after Blocks That Matter, we ah our brains were already, we already knew that what we wanted to do.
Speaker: ah So, yeah, it was really quick ah finding the game. And I don't know, it it was really smooth. So maybe my memory is making everything bright and shine.
Speaker: ah But yeah, it was really it was really working well. It was not hard to make. It seems simple. and that's why, you know, sometimes I think about that. I think, ah oh, um because I love ah the games from Darkneck and and and er a lot of other puzzle games. But I'm like, we will I be able sometimes to to create another puzzle game like Tetrobot? Because for me, it was magical, you know, it was magical.
Speaker: No, I know the rules already. They are in my brain and it's okay. We just have to do it. But ah um we didn't prototype it a lot. you know it was It was working.
Speaker: And sometimes games are not so easy to make. so I mean, on on that note, you said that ah five years on Looking for Fail was too long, but that if you were in a similar situation, you might not necessarily do anything too different. Do you think you learned anything differently? on Looking for Yael that would let you approach a similar sized project without it being such a um Yeah, well and make it go smoother?
Speaker: Well, the first, the very big one, the big lesson is do not enter production until you have finished pre-production. Because um when we have... So so in 2023,
Speaker: ah At the end of pre-production, we already had the scope of the game. we We knew that we wanted to have these kind of apartments and these kind of ah mechanics, but just one apartment was not designed.
Speaker: One apartment. And it was awful to create this apartment because we we thought a lot about what what should be this apartment, what it should be.
Speaker: ah Yeah, do not enter production. Do not enter production if you don't have a programmer and do do not enter production if if the design is not ah already set properly.
Speaker: It's not in production that you have to to learn what your game is. So yeah, that's the big lesson. a ah it's It's better if the preproduction is very long and the production is very, very fast.
Speaker: I agree. ah Do you have any questions for us? ah Yes, i have. So I'm really shy, you know, still still a little bit. So sometimes I have the feeling that when I am interviewed, I'm a little kid ah talking with adults, you know.
Speaker: So I have a ah kid the question for you. Do you have any puzzle games on your phone? I don't play a lot of puzzle games on my phone.
Speaker: um I mean, i I did play the mobile version of TetraBot & Co. as well as the PC version, and the mobile version was great. um I don't... Yeah, there have been games that I've played on my phone,
Speaker: but phone I play a lot more on my computer. The one time it is polite to pull out my phone and check something while I'm recording the podcast is because I'm checking what games I have on my phone. um For me, um Fivefold is a recent rule discovery Sudoku-like that I've been really enjoying. I've actually been meaning to talk to Alan about it.
Speaker: um And I keep the mobile version of Puzmo on my phone. um Outside of that, it is, ah I am something like 6,000 puzzles into good Sudoku ah with signs of stoppage and that it's just a bunch of puzzle games that I worked on.
Speaker: okay Yeah, I mean, the mobile version of Lock Digital is fantastic. Yeah, I was going to say, Alan and have reasons like, oh yeah, I have Spooky Express on my phone, I have Lock Digital on my phone, I have a Monster's Expedition on my phone. These do not count for the purposes of your question.
Speaker: Okay, so if i if i if I'm bored, I can borrow your phone to play games. Okay, thank you. I have another question. ah So, you know, the the tidy up genre is really trendy right now.
Speaker: I have the feeling that it's possible to mix puzzles with the tidy up genre. What do you think about that?
Speaker: Do you have any interest in this genre and to expand on it? ah um I don't have a particular interest, but I also don't have like a visceral reaction against... i think yeah I think a lot of the time that genre of game is like a little more casual than I'm going for, but that doesn't mean you couldn't make a publia version of it that was more my speed.
Speaker: Yeah. I... I know... A lot of people who are very, very into that as a way to unwind, um especially people who have – I don't know if what what the French phrase for this is, but in English it's called executive dysfunction.
Speaker: And – and ah a lot of people with ah executive dysfunction will use it ah because to to like try and retrain their brain to ah get dopamine from doing chores.
Speaker: But in general, i i think that thinkiness can be injected into just about any genre, but it you'd have to do it thoughtfully, ah just like anything, right? Like,
Speaker: you could make i'm sure you could make a ah thinky horror game uh like there's like like portal is a thinky first person shooter like you can make thinky like any any any game yeah any any game is just about like being able to do it thoughtfully and in a way that doesn't remove what tidy up like type fans are looking for in service of pushing thinkiness in front of them but also doesn't dilute the thinkiness so like there's like there's there's ah there's a tightrope that you would need to walk
Speaker: Okay. I mean, what you said there was really interesting to me there, because you were talking about like these games with a mindless activity that you do to like kind of distract your brain. But you know what people also do for that kind of thing? It's like Sudoku Nonograms. Yeah, Sudoku and Crossword go like play yeah those are puzzle gamers, puzzle games. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Yeah. I'm sure the brain patterns, if you were to like measure them scientifically, are not too dissimilar. ah Okay. Okay.
Speaker: I think I will try to to come with the concept. I think something interesting about that kind of puzzle game is that they are less systemic than the stuff that we make. For ah for for for a puzzly, puzzly, thinky puzzle game, um lot of it is like, here's some systems and then exploring the consequences of that having each puzzle be unique each puzzle gives you some deep insight into the consequences of this system and so you're trying to like trull the depths of it and that's a very different design style to like a sudoku or a nonogram or crossword where it's much more about like a very it's a very very familiar solving process it's more about like just uh um
Speaker: Yes. Or Minesweeper or... Executing on an algorithm more than um deducing things.
Speaker: So I think a puzzly tidy up game probably pushes more in that kind of direction of like you you pick a very simple system that's very satisfying to do over and over again.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. Okay. I agree. You know, i think there's a daily mode in um a Little to the Left, and I wonder – I haven't actually looked at that. I wonder what they do for that.
Speaker: ah Is there anything else we want to discuss real quick before we wrap up? Because we are at time. um in In looking for files, the retro puzzles are based on Tetrobot & Co rules. um and um yeah what What did you think about it while playing the game?
Speaker: I know that we could have done a lot more in just one game based on and on these routes these new rules, but we we had to mix them all together with environmental puzzles.
Speaker: which was Interesting, because I didn't really make that connection. um Maybe that's because I hadn't played Tetrabot and Go so recently. or maybe it's like i feel like those puzzles in Looking for Yael are more Tetromino-based, where in Tetrabot, they're maybe more interacting with the interval individual blocks one at a time.
Speaker: Yeah. And at at the beginning of looking for files, it was the case, still the case. First, it was blocks. Then you were creating your tetrominos with blocks. And at the end, there is only pre-made tetrominos in puzzles. But you you throw them and there is this ah sticky rule, ah same blocks stick together. so yeah So, yeah, that's why I wanted to know.
Speaker: um No, yeah. and it they I felt like they were a little... um They weren't particularly the focus of Looking for Fail. It it felt like an interesting like balance of gameplays where ah the weight was much more like the escape roomy, explore the space gameplay. And they it felt like a little more of like a breather in between those than something which was... ah
Speaker: accepted to be like, oh, this is like the other half of the game. um and so I wasn't really like giving out a lot of like deep design analysis. I was just like, OK, here's a is's a little puzzle minigame.
Speaker: um I also didn't like complete looking for fail. So it's if possible that you iterate on those systems over the course of the game and they get more interesting um towards the end. um but's In one apartment, yes. But yeah, ah it's not like ah ah you can't you can't ah reshape the apartment the the apartment with Tetromino's and we we should have done that. But it could have been complicated. was not the the main idea. Yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker: Yeah. um Thank you again for joining us. Thank you. Where can people find your games? ah They can find them on Steam. murder All of them are on Steam. Some are on consoles.
Speaker: ah Looking for files is on Switch, for example, PS5, Xbox. And if you go to swingswingsubmarine.com, you will find them. Awesome. Well, thank you again.
Speaker: ah And thank you for listening to the Draconeck and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoise.com. Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak.
Speaker: Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.
Speaker: you
