Transcript
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Speaker: Welcome to the Draconeck and Friends official podcast where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Seren from Draconeck and Friends and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazelden, the head Draconeck at Draconeck and Friends.
Speaker: Hey there. I'm back again after two podcasts off. I hopefully will continue to be on the podcast again for the regular foreseeable future. Today, we're joined by Felix Kramer, who you may know from his work on I'm going to say everything. How are you doing today?
Speaker: Thank you. I'm doing well. I haven't worked on as much as you. That's not a bar that we should aspire to. As producers, we touch many things. So I've been really lucky to work on some really cool stuff. Hey, Felix, did you actually work on Everything by David O'Reilly? I didn't. And if I had this, that would have been a great... I would say that all the time. That would be the greatest... Oh, God. was literally producer of everything.
Speaker: yeah um All right, ah Felix, ah why don't you name some games that you've worked on and what you've done and get people to know you? I am an independent producer, so that means I'm freelance across many teams at any given moment. Alan and I met, and Saran, you and I met also very early, but Alan and I met while I was working on probably the first game that anyone would know about, which was Towerfall Ascension back in the day. And so just got my start kind of on Towerfall and in small indie games and have since made fun stuff like Untitled Goose Game. People liked that one.
Speaker: And um Tunic, people really liked that one too. And Blaseball, which was a weird one and an outlier, but it is another one that people- But it rolls. Yeah. And so, um yeah I've been around for about, well,
Speaker: How long have I been actually doing production? 12 years-ish, but um we all in Indy wear many hats, so. yeah i'd I'd say 12 years is when I officially decided i was in games. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Felix, what the hell do am I supposed to do ah for my 20th anniversary in the industry next year? Yeah, I don't envy that situation. Okay, because it's so funny. You go like, wow, 20 years, and it's celebratory, but then you also think about everything that's happened and the context. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you
Speaker: Think about what the industry was in 2007 when Bright Eyed Seren was like, oh my gosh, indie is like finally starting to be a thing. Like I'm starting to cover games like ah games are beginning to like say more and like be considered more like artistic and like valid form of art. and i'm like, I'm going to jump in here. I'm going start writing about games. I'm going to get into this industry. I'm going live in this world. And now here I am in 2026 dying.
Speaker: i As we are are. I wasn't in the industry, but I think I made my first jam game. ah it would be about 20 years ago.
Speaker: yeah Right now, as we're recording. Yeah, I'm like, what the what the hell am I supposed to do? but for a to member do you remember when you got to a conference and realized it was your 20th conference, like PAX, for example? And it wasn't a milestone you intended to hit. And then you went, is this a good thing?
Speaker: the The key with this one is it is. This one we can say 20 years in the industry is a good thing. The feeling of getting the same feeling as we got when we went, should we have ever gone to 20 paxes? Is that a thing I should have done in my life? So at least you can say, no, no, no. And we're called to this. there's not I mean, 20 years and 20 more to go right? So yeah, no. they're stuck If they haven't run me out after 20, do you think they're going to run me out before 40?
Speaker: I've been I've been laid off. I've been furloughed. I've been I've been in bad places. It's it's never too late to burn out. Oh, oh, if if you think I haven't been burned out before, and do you know what I did? I kept going.
Speaker: Yeah, and like, not that it's virtuous, but the point is we came back because it's what called us back, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Not that we were like, oh yeah, we all love burning out, no. but But especially young us, especially before the industry really had even like ah a cell wall, you know, like it's kind of not really an industry. It is sort of a bag of stuff and some storefronts that get that stuff. And so like back then it was, there weren't even storefronts. And so we were doing wild stuff and, and still to this day, I mean, we could argue that the infrastructure for games has never been stable and never will be. And therefore it still is like this. yeah That's what we didn't know. Then we got, we sweet baby us.
Speaker: thought we were learning valid information. 2007, 2008, the app store was coming up. up Digital distribution on consoles was opening up for the very first time. like it was like Steam was adding more games. Yeah, Steam was adding non-Valve games. It was like, this was like a revolution of, oh my gosh, there's new ways to reach players. there new And now it's like, okay, well, everyone has a monopoly.
Speaker: Have I ever told you the story and this podcast might appreciate the story and apologies to Terry Cavanaugh advance, but have I ever told you the story about how i decided to leave the industry and leave school and join the games industry? So I was back in school for programming. I went to school for journal broadcast journalism.
Speaker: um and then years later i went to school for programming because I thought we're comp side because I thought, well I, I love making games. I love programming already. Surely.
Speaker: I will love taking it in school. Anyway, that was ridiculous. But while I was in school, it's exactly the around the time you're talking, right? 2007 through 2010, when but If you were paying attention, you saw that the industry was, there were things that were starting to pop up. It wasn't just people making games and then maybe putting them on on a flash site. There were consoles were paying attention, things were coming out. And I had this like, oh no, I think I should leave school and stay in school kids. But I dropped out of school for many reasons. One of them being, I played super hexagon and
Speaker: finished it on one of them. I don't remember what, and the ending of that game is such a ah meditative narrative experience that I went into a fugue state and realized I had to quit school and join the industry. Incredible. I would simply quit my school. and And it was like, this is it right now. If I don't do it right now, I don't know if I will, I will be the right person at the right time. Right. And, and I, that's what I always say about my career is that I managed to be lucky enough to be the right person at the right time in a few scenarios.
Speaker: And so i but I credit Terry's game with that. And when the first time I ever met him, I was very starstruck. There's not that many people I've been starstruck about in the industry. And Terry, I was, I was a baby. i didn't really know. And I also look a little younger than I really am. And so I approached him and just out of nervousness at GDC told him, oh my God, you're the reason i dropped out of school. And, and Terry is so lovely. that he took the empathy at the moment, he like took responsibility for me maybe ruining my life. Like it was a one second moment between us and I was like, oh no, I have- You've put the burden on him. adult And doing good, I was the right choice and I would have never done it for myself had you not made something that reached me. That like, you know, I've had lots of games in my in my career be pivotal, but that one for me alone
Speaker: the end of that game made me feel many... Yes. lot of things and see a lot of things in clarity. And know was my it was my, like, i didn't, you know, wasn't on acid, but I imagine if I had been, the story would have been called more colorful. I would have remembered more. But, you know, it's that kind of... or less, or much less.
Speaker: Or less, yeah, I guess, but... um No, that's that's very funny. I know I don't i never actually heard of the story of how you got into the industry. um It's funny.
Speaker: You were just like a fixture in the industry that just appeared one day on my radar. I forget what it was. It was just a bunch of people. as as like You just kept getting retweeted by a bunch of people I followed. I was like, yeah, okay. yeah like Clearly, and i looked at your Twitter. this is i I'm not advocating being on Twitter.com, folks. We're talking like 15 years ago. yes And i was like, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, Felix, this is like definitely a ah person to follow, and so I followed. And then just like had a small parasocial thing, and then you would show up on like Giant Bomb, and I would watch Giant Bomb and like stuff like that. And then ah the moment that – the first time I remember talking to you is when –
Speaker: I started talk I started working on a certain game that I will not name. And ah this certain game was considered infamous. And so you just reached out to me they're like, wow, you're the person that took that on, huh?
Speaker: I was like, if you can do this, we can do it. Anyone can do anything. Anyone can do anything. And like, yeah, and and the truth is, it didn't actually matter if it's shipped or not. You still did. We that that every game is a miracle, right? And so the work that I was like, I just saw the work you were doing, whether it was going to work or not. Right. And I i immediate And it was – producers weren't really – it wasn't a term we used really because it was only – I had to this team what a producer was. Yeah, and and the and the idea of a producer was a very AAA concept because there are stakeholders and there are people to answer to. and And I think a lot of what we've been able to now articulate and then I couldn't really was –
Speaker: ah the idea that even if there are no stakeholders, even if it's your game, you are also the stakeholder. like You are going to have to reckon with that and you won't have enough time to do everything. it's just not exactly That process is a full-time job. So i you know I remember realizing at some point that you were out there clearly doing the same work. i almost felt the first time we met, I was like, this is amazing. I'm so excited to meet you in person. And then after that, I was like,
Speaker: I hope they I hope you specifically and all producers know that we can reach out to each other. Yeah, because I don't think any of us knows what we're doing. We're just doing it. We're just getting it right. Yeah, we're just all doing it. every Every day I wake up and I find what needs doing and I do it and then I go back to bed and then the next day I find out what needs doing.
Speaker: Yeah, and it was a wild time. We just didn't really know what we were supposed to be doing or how to do it. It was the Wild West, really. And and there was while there were so few rules and you could you know use that to your advantage, I guess, if if you were in the right place at the right time, there also were no guidelines. Yeah. I mean, do you do you think that now we have a sense of what a producer does? Much more.
Speaker: I would say that the the first... um thing that comes to mind when you hear producer now is much more charitable and and and welcomed as ah being open to the idea of it. Because I think now producer, if it doesn't, I don't think it carries, producer's a lazy term.
Speaker: First of all, like I think producer is a catch-all term for like a thing that we could probably be more expressive about in our industry, especially in indie, but without infrastructure. Planner, release manager. And all have studios, again, we can talk about that. Yeah. Right? Like this is not the moment in time, I think, to be really clear about roles at a studio. We're all kind of ah making do with what we have. And so I still love the term, but I think a producer now is seen as someone who might fill in some blanks, which is, I love that. I will take that, right? Because It's true, you can get a technical producer or a creative producer or, ah you know, ah me, a spreadsheet freak. And like, i i think that what I can be applied to is significantly more valued now than previously. And I understand why. i think that, I think it's a weird term that means something different in every other art circle in capitalism. Yes. um
Speaker: Well, I have something i want to say on that, but I want to go back a few moments also about the faking it till you make it or like we just know don't know what we're doing. I think all the time about how um in like 2016, no, I ended up getting invited onto a panel at a ah Glitch conference about ah production. For people who don't know, Glitch is in ah Minnesota. It's a...
Speaker: it's it's it's It's just a really cool group. Felix is also involved in Glitch. This is like a this's the thing. So I get involved and it's ah me. It's ah Zachary Johnson, who's also been on this podcast.
Speaker: And it is and he was one of two people who worked on on Joggernaut. So this was 2018 then. And ah then there was that is great.
Speaker: Yeah. And then there's another person who I didn't know who ah was, I'm going to guess, about 30 years older than me at the time and had been a producer on like AAA games since like the 80s or 90s. And like the structure, what like the the talk was, what is a producer?
Speaker: And all three of us had the most wildly different answers. That's beautiful. It's that's that is so confusing for a talk, I will say, like, I bet. If it were a fireside or if it were something that wasn't meant to be a little bit more educational, I think it could be so. i mean, that is true that what a producer has done in depending on the circumstances has changed.
Speaker: day to day, not just like in the industry. So it's like me, I said with a bunch of Ts, it's ah Zach, he had to he had to sink or swim on joggernauts and then it was this other person who- ah I've worked in AAA for decades. Yeah, who kept looking at us being like, are you two imposters? What is happening?
Speaker: like What is a producer to them? what did they did do you remember what they said? sort of what they're Yeah, I mean, they were like, ah i a lot of it was they were the liaison to the money people.
Speaker: Against stakeholders. Exactly. a lot of a producer is this like back and forth between some impenetrable monolith of money and the people actually making the game, right? And so yeah but I don't know what that looks like at a AAA company in terms of a day-to-day, but I do understand the concept. Yeah.
Speaker: Felix, when I tell you that all the producers I know that work in AAA are the calmest people you will ever meet because they're on a team of 10 other producers and they're only working on one game. cannot That game is so much bigger, but they have like 10 producers on one game.
Speaker: And I'm like, can you imagine instead of 10 producers on one, or instead of 10 games on one producer, you have 10 producers on one game. What a miracle that sounds like. It does. and And yet so many of them, so many people that exited AAA at that time walked away with such a sour taste in their mouth about what producers do, right? And how they don't need them and how it's not important. And I think that... That is so interesting that the that the structure of AAA means that the producer is seen as not for the dev team as much as for the stakeholders. Yeah. And I don't think it's true everywhere, to be clear, but it was the trauma many people came away with in the early Exactly. It's when the producer comes to see you, it's not to help you, it's to tell you what you're doing wrong.
Speaker: Exactly. Right. And it is, it is a, I, I, again, it's why I think producer is a lazy term because I, I personally started using the term producer because someone described to me what they did as a producer day to day. And I went, Oh, I could see that sitting into what I do. And ah the term fits better than anything else I'm doing because I was doing PR and biz dev, but it wasn't, yeah it wasn't those things, right. It wasn't just those things. And I later realized, Oh, I've, I've,
Speaker: I was looking in the dictionary yeah and not paying attention to the context of society currently. And so my, when I started hearing how much animosity people had towards their old producers or towards the idea of producers as friction, as opposed to as,
Speaker: solving friction. yeah I thought, i you know, i I always thought maybe we'll come up with a better term and we just haven't. I'm down to come up with a better term, but I truly think that because we're in games and everything is design and nothing really has a title that is proper, I'm fine with it now, you know, like yeah i'm good because project manager is part of it, right? But there's only five people on our team. We're all doing all the things. Exactly. so um yeah See, the way that ah specifically uh nintendo's japanese office title title something think is things is always something i'm a little more curious about uh they call what we call producer they call that planner uh that is like that is their job job title and then they also have producers and producer is much more of a creative supervisor yes and that's like music right like in you i feel like personally i like the music analogy of producer a lot for games because it is so creative that a lot of what we end up doing exactly is this facilitating creative. When Miyamoto comes in on a project to give creative input and offer recommendations, he is credited as producer.
Speaker: And that's a lot like film as well, right? There is a lot more of you are one of the major glue. i mean, in you know film producers always felt like this term. the Producer in film means you put the money in, right?
Speaker: And or like a lot of producers that they don't have the money, they brought the connections. Yes. Right. And so it is on everyone else to make the thing. But I would say that, you know, if someone's if especially if you're like produced by and then it's.
Speaker: the person that you wanted to direct the movie, but yeah you you're so honored. That's like, they were your mentor, right? Like a lot of that is sort of, they helped me understand how to get here and they recommended A lot of production is mentorship, right?
Speaker: Exactly. And there's no, there's not the same power dynamic. No. And I think that's healthy in yeah lots of ways. I'm sure sure if we all had money, there would be lots of power dynamics in games, but there aren't. And so yeah that power dynamic is shifted. and I think in Indie, it shifted one way and in AAA, it shifted another. And so there's a bit of a difference there. ah Felix, have you ever worked with a team, mentored them a bunch? They felt like they learned everything. saying They let you go because they felt like they'd learn anything and then they brought you back.
Speaker: Has that ever happened to you? Because that's happened to me. I have done contract work where, yeah, I have definitely done contract work the teams that thought their contract was finished with me. And it was and then it was very much not. It was very much. and And I think that learned that ah having patience as a producer for those moments is yeah also so important because at the end of the day, i try to work on art.
Speaker: I try to work on things where I care about the art, right? I try to work on it because that takes you through the like, the devs need to go through a little journey here. And if they come back to me, great. And if they don't, okay, I hope I did my best. And i think it is,
Speaker: always a delight when people do come back because it does mean that we were we built rapport enough that they there's some trust ideally um and and if they come back also and there isn't that and i get to be like ha ha okay yeah was right so i i think like a tiny little bit like you have to have a lot of patience and a lot of confidence to be able to go yeah this game might need the thing i know it needs but the developers are not understanding that yet and that's I think a lot of game dev is thankless. Like a lot of it it needs to be our relationship with the making of the thing and what we get out of it. Because otherwise, if we're looking for a thank you, it's going to be a tough road, right? Like I think that's true for all disciplines within games in some way.
Speaker: Exactly. And so we have to enjoy the the making of it. And I think I've learned to sort of become... a little more zen about those moments especially where it's like oh no they don't know what i'm trying to tell them i might be wrong though i'm not right all the time i will have to let them see and then plan i have always have a little plan in my book of like okay if they're in a situation later what would i do so i have it ready in my head you know it's a months later usually that they come back yes um is there a team that you haven't worked with, that their work has like touched you in such a specific way that you would move heaven and earth to work with if they asked?
Speaker: Okay, so am I allowed to say AAAs? Yes, absolutely. Because I think there are teams within the Yakuza team that I would give anything to go be part of. Well, the current one or the one that existed three years ago?
Speaker: Well, and that's it. That's why I said there are some teams. There are moments time that I would want to have done that, right? And so it's tough. If I look at, I mean, there are so many cool studios that I want to work with so bad.
Speaker: And when you ask me that question, what I have to not do is build a dream studio. Yeah. i just like the person this person this person Because what I want is this, like I would, I want this weird design and everyone at their best and everyone comfortable and every, like, I don't want to, to be clear, the reason I don't run a studio is that I understand what it takes to run a studio and it is very, very, very difficult. And so um I'm not, I would not start a studio, but in a fantasy I would.
Speaker: But right now, I think there's a lot of cool places. I'm really curious about how Supergiant is doing, always. i think I've always wondered how they're doing and never never thought that is the type of ah team size that is for me, but I've always wanted to learn about that kind of team size, you know, in that kind of stability. um and And to see how they individually just manage themselves, because it is so interesting to see such vision come together every time, right? So I think that's a super easy one to name drop, and everyone would say it
Speaker: um and And again, from for I'm talking about production standpoint. What games are you the most fans of? Yeah, the game itself I am also, yes, of course. yeah no i mean I have two that are also like franchises I deeply care about, but also like the specific production chaos, I'm like, I gotta know, I gotta know. I have to know. I have to know how you did this, but right? i I have to know is very different to I want to work there. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I want three-month internship at two different studios. hu Yeah, is there a fly on the wall? Okay, is there when you audit a course at universities? What I would pay them to then be a fly on the wall for a while as a i know it was an audit?
Speaker: And that's the kind of – because I think I have so much respect and also I'm holding space for a lot of messages because I don't think it can exist without it. Imagine the production of realities of working on a Kingdom Hearts.
Speaker: Oh, you are in Japan developing the game. Yeah, developing the game. Your primary licensee contact is Disney Japan. Disney Japan reports to Disney America. Disney America has to go talk to someone speaks English. So they go to Square Enix, North America. who's the localization team who's not yet working on the game. So they give their best answer. Then they go back to Disney America. Then Disney America goes to Disney Japan and Disney Japan goes to Square Enix Japan and gives a thumbs up on what this poster on the wall is allowed to say. And you do that a thousand and like 10,000 times and then the game is made. I want to see that pipeline so bad. In action. And I want to see how they've, because you know, there are people who are so familiar with this now. Exactly. that they understand how they can stagger everything and have things going and how the requests coming. have what their production plan is. What does the art producer there do?
Speaker: What is the person in charge of, like, because that's the other thing, is starting with the most recent game, they have a bespoke shader for every single world, and they also match film cuts yeah and the the editing style of the feature to how the Disney world is. And I'm like, how does this, and then at the same time, they're also serving, servicing the 25 year old original story that integrates all the Kingdom Hearts games. I'm like.
Speaker: The lore, the, the people that give okays to things, right? Like I love the stories from AAA. One of my favorite things. and And I, I'm, I don't know if you've had a guest on from AAA in this way, but I'm always looking for inside,
Speaker: um like view on AAA and not in ah in a catty way, not in a gossipy way, just like literally how it work. All of my favorite stories are these like, okay, we, the writers are now emailing the person that will decide if what they've written is okay. And it is this, like, you send it away. you cross your fingers. And you cross your fingers. And depending on what IP it is, it might make it all the way to the person that originally did it, and it might come all the way back into a different... Because I worked at Disney when I was at a previous employer, and I am allowed to say a part of this. I will say the part I'm allowed to say.
Speaker: was working on the physical release for Grim Fandango at IMAPIT. And... ah That is a property owned by Lucasfilm, and they had to go find a subject matter expert. And that is where I have to stop talking, but you can go imagine all the rest.
Speaker: I really can. I can on. Yes, I this is the kind exactly right. Like these are kind of Lucasfilm 2022 is a subject matter expert on Grim Fandango.
Speaker: Yeah. Incredible. Incredible. Anyways, when I think about Kingdom Hearts, I think about like how many emails must have gone. So Small tangent, but I've been told reliably that people like my tangents. So I will i will go on this small tangent and carry you on with me. Oh, love your tangents. Alan hasn't said anything for however long this has been going. That's fine. That's fine. This is Siren. People don't come to the Dratnik podcast for Dratnik. No, they come they come for Siren. It's true.
Speaker: It's so um the So in Kingdom Hearts 3, one of the Disney movies that gets adapted is the third Pirates of the car Caribbean movie. And ah that movie ah has a lot to do with a chest that contains Davy Jones's heart.
Speaker: Yes. So in Kingdom Hearts 3, separate as part of the meta story, they're looking for a mysterious black box that no one knows the contents of.
Speaker: Davy Jones's heart is in a black box. So there is a scene in that this world where a bunch of the characters all suspect that Davy Jones's heart is the item that they're all looking for. They see the chest, they open it, they fight they pull out the organ, the heart, which is not this the soul that they're referring to in Kingdom Hearts. And they say, oh, maybe that kind of heart. That's not what we're looking for. And then walk away. And do um can you imagine the types of emails that had to go get fired around to be like, OK, so when we say heart and kingdom hearts, all the characters are referring to the cosmological soul. However, because we're in a Disney world, we're referring to the organ that pumps blood. And so therein lies the comedy.
Speaker: the bit took i The amount of effort for a bit that that landed with whoever watched Pirates of the Caribbean 3 whenever that came out, because i remember watching it. yeah like night i but I remember Bill Nighy. Yeah, exactly. i don't remember the plot, right? Yeah, that's fine. You know what really respect? Yeah.
Speaker: i can i can you know what i really respect is yeah when the dev team does go to those lengths for a bit though. Like it's knowing how much work went into such a small bit is I have so much love and respect for it because it it could not possibly have been, I feel like this is true for a lot of writing in games is that it's always a bit of a pyrrhic victory. Where you're like, I absolutely got the bit in and it was worth it.
Speaker: But I, it would took so long or like it was this many steps and it was wild. Should I have done it? No. How many people at Disney had to approve the concept yeah of displaying, like also even just in terms of like the people at Disney who are in charge of like the Kingdom Hearts project being like, all right, and now for a bit, we're going to introduce the concept of a second type of heart. Yeah.
Speaker: And we will never address this ever again. And we'll walk away. The point is, it has no payoff beyond that. yeah That is the joke. Then we walk away. And I think like, ah i want, those are the root, that's why I really, i mean, listen, the true answer to any, what would I move heaven and earth for in general is from soft.
Speaker: Like I, and again, for the reason, and I guess for an opposite reason where I so respect how slow they are willing to be in releasing content and how determined they are to continue on their pace, that that to me speaks of something of a value somewhere that is being held that would make our lives a little easier, right? Because that's sort of what producers have to do is they have to hold the values of who's in charge. Yeah, we're go to we're going to get we're going to get we're going to make sure that we're hitting our vision and we're hitting our mark here.
Speaker: um And that's across multiple franchises, like the um the um Armored Core 6 is that as well. um Did you play the, this is going to date when we're recording this, did you play the network test for Duskbloods?
Speaker: Not, not, no. I, I, I want no, so I wanted to go in completely violent when it comes out. I'm so excited for them. Okay. Do you know what type of game that is? No, no, I know nothing. Don't tell me anything. Do you want me to tell you the shot? Yes, okay, I do, I do. I will tell you. It's a Kirby Air Ride.
Speaker: Okay, okay. Oh, that is such good news. They made City Trial from Kirby Air Ride. Oh, see, again. i That marketing team has some things to answer for.
Speaker: Yeah, I think they're my answer. I think they are my answer. Just to understand what is happening. what do you frequently do i'm like What do you mean? No, no, no. I want to dig into this. Alan, what do you mean that marketing team has things to answer for? They put out one trailer.
Speaker: did Did it imply that the Kirby Air Ride? No, no. People found out when the network test happened. right they put They put up a website being like, here's how to play. Because they had never shown gameplay before. And I think that you're correct, Alan, and that I want to be in the room for them deciding this is how we're going to do it.
Speaker: Yeah, going show people that it's a multiplayer game and then back the fuck off. And then people are going to get in and they're going to realize, oh, the goal is ah we're going to battle royale style, drop the player count over consecutive phases. And it's going to be based on high score. And there's a million ways to earn score.
Speaker: ah one of the best sighting One of the best things is ah there's a ah there's a bisexual ancient angry priest, ah and his one of his missions in the game is go remind another player that you were once married in a past life. And if they accept the the remarriage, then you both ah form an alliance and earn a shit ton of points.
Speaker: This is so that they are such little freaks. That's the other thing I love. Like this is such little free. believe I believe he is also the one that can turn into a half dinosaur. sure Yeah, look you say no more because this is everything I've ever wanted. It's everything that you would ever want from this game. With Framzost, we're coming at this from a perspective of like a what could what can be learnt here. But with Framzost, I feel like part of it is like they have fewer budgetary constraints than most of the teams that we are working on. Okay, so you say that.
Speaker: But Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, they had like, oh yeah, no, sure. Those two, one, yeah they they still behaved the same. And it was very, and that's very fascinating. And I would love, i would love I think out of everything, the fly on the wall I would like to be at the most. For people who don't know or or weren't born yet, which is terrifying, but very possible, when Demon's Souls 1 was being developed, that was published by Sony in Japan.
Speaker: And then Sony America passed on the game because they couldn't figure out how the hell they would market this. So Atlus brought it over. And what on earth would the conversation have been between FromSoft, Sony Japan, and Sony America in Europe, where they're all looking at the same game, and Sony Japan says, hell yeah, and everyone else says, you're high. Also, where are those people now?
Speaker: where like To have been the person that says, no one will understand demon souls... What was their reaction to the marquee PS5 launch game being a remake of Demon's Souls?
Speaker: Yeah, I'd be so curious, right? Like you get one wrong and you're like, okay, when do you realize, oh, and I think all and to answer sort of to address what you're saying, I think the thing that I, similar to what you just said, Saren, I would love to be there for is to understand how they make decisions on that team because they do it.
Speaker: They, I clearly, they do it at a pace. So that's money. i The slowness I understand is part in part resources, right? But to have decision making across all their games with narrative that in the most cryptic way that they do and the way that they hold that sort of lore and narrative, I'm so curious to see how any decision gets made both in the game and for the business of the game. For example, Night Reign is not live service subscription.
Speaker: That is so interesting. And I'm sure they could have because I would pay them, yeah but they didn't. And so I'm like, okay, and what, in which pillar are you making which decision and how does that affect the whole game and how you support it and stuff like that? And like, is it creative that is the most important thing? And that's why everything else doesn't get done. Like, are you just saying, yeah, I'm happy to leave money on the table.
Speaker: Love it. That's what, you know, would love that. That would be amazing. And how does that get communicated to both, up and down, right? Like, yeah who is doing these decisions? and Like, I'm sure Bandai Namco wants a fucking subscription.
Speaker: Right. Like, I'm sure every, i you know, i I'm not even saying now, but even when Nightmare came out, they could have done it and they didn't. And I'm curious in a world where so many other studios are now clearly, visibly, transparently beholden to horrible decision makers that are making decisions in these ways, the front office seemingly from the outside managed to dodge a lot of that Right. And I find that fascinating. Like I could come up with a billion reasons why. But I think, you know, if we're talking about hypothetical where I get to learn, that would be definitely one of them. Yakuza's one as well. But I know a bit more about that already. I don't want to get too sad. So. Yeah, no, exactly. My other what would I want to learn, which is much more of a what would I want to witness?
Speaker: Felix, have I talked to you about the Trails franchise, the Legend of Heroes, like Trails in the Sky, Trails Cold Steel? Yeah, we've talked about it, but probably not what's about to happen to me now. covered this the podcast, Siren? I don't know if we've covered it on the podcast. I will be brief. So ah this is a mistake. This is, okay. So at some point in 2004, when they released the first game ah in the series, which is Trails in the Sky, yeah and for any hardcore listeners knowing, yes, there are Legend of Heroes games before Trails in the Sky, they're different.
Speaker: Trails in the Sky ah comes out and ends on a big cliffhanger. And so they resolve it in the next game. And at some point along the line, they have decided to do the thing that no reasonable soul would ever do and tell once continuous serialized story that all require you play all the previous games across multiple decades.
Speaker: Yeah. so Yeah. Why So every time they release a game, there is now a theoretical ceiling of... Because you're going to get some level fall off, but how many new users are you acquiring? And so there are like 12 games into this franchise. And the other thing, when I tell you that these games take longer to localize than to develop. And the reason me the reason is Nihon Falcom releases one game a year.
Speaker: ah they have they They operate on a 10-month dev cycle for every game. And these games are $60 games 50-person team. that are made with a fifty person team They alternate sometimes between Trails and East games. And East games are, we are going to make large-ass areas with exploration and combat and a less focus on story. And Trails games are, you are coming to this first and foremost for the story.
Speaker: So the writing, so everything is written, my understanding, directly into the fucking game engine. Yeah, has to be. And they're just writing, writing, writing, and then they just ship the draft. And they just go, and they go, and they go, and they maintain continuity. And Felix, when I tell you,
Speaker: As collectibles in this franchise. You can pick up chapters of novels that they write as bonus material. Because they also write novels just as just as a sidebar.
Speaker: Are they – they're not susceptible to the AI stuff right now, are they? That seems like the type of of crew that – the whole point is they wrote it all in 10 months. it was It was flow state, shoe of consciousness. It got out there. yeah They are the lore bible. Their head is the lore bible, and so they're in there. I can't imagine they would want They're an independent company in Japan that publishes them themselves. They are their own stakeholders. ah they they They get publishers internationally because of the localization.
Speaker: Let's start that. yeah I bet I could stream of consciousness put out a puzzle game every once a year. it would garbage. But what I'd ship the draft. But also, to be clear, these games and are like stream of consciousness seemingly made.
Speaker: It is my like separate from the development pipeline. They are so good that it is my favorite franchise in gaming. I love that. I'm going to, that makes me think a lot. I'm now I have to sort of meditate on those games, knowing that it is, ah it is funny how as producers, when we learn about anything, the game, the, our relationship with the game and playing it as a player changes. It fundamentally changes. Yeah. Yeah. Like, ah Last year, they released the remake of the first game, ah Trails in the Sky at first.
Speaker: ah The second game took, I think it was like three years to develop on where they had originally intended to be 10 months. It was so big, Felix, that in order to...
Speaker: for XSEED, the American publisher, to release it on PSP and meet the requirement that it has to be ah on PSN, Sony had to re-architect PSN for PSP well after the ps like right around the time of the launch of PS4 so that multi-UMD games could be downloaded. Oh.
Speaker: Because it was a multi-UMD PSP game. so Wait, did it actually have you bought multiple yes discs like you got multiple? yeah You got multiple in the same case because it was so big because it was the biggest PSP.
Speaker: Wasn't there a ah Final Fantasy game that was like that too Wasn't one of their games a double? Yeah. Final Fantasy 7. So they finally did it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. but He came with multiple UMDs, which is such a funny sentence to say out loud. UMD, multiple UMD doesn't make any sense. like To an audience that probably has no idea what a UMD is and it's not worth getting into. ah but the But then, this year, just last week, Felix, they put out the remake of that second game that took them three years to make originally. They're like, nailed it.
Speaker: In 10 months, they just remade that entire fucking thing. All right, so here's the new question. yeah How do we get on Sony's radar sufficient that when we need something to re-architect it?
Speaker: I would love to know. How we get on their radar and we're like, listen. And it would be better for us. The default scenario is you're like, oh no, this game doesn't fit into one UMD. I guess we can't release it over here. Right, right. I guess we need to cut the scope of this down to what fits on this. Yeah, Or we just... Call Sony. Call Sony. Yeah, are we exclusively- because the thing is, it released in Japan on PSP before available on PlayStation Network was a requirement for a game shipping. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it released in America like four years later.
Speaker: Yeah. and that And so it needed- That's so- I mean- Right, so Sony have kind of got themselves into a situation where they're like- They can't localize this game that's already reversed.
Speaker: So you have to do this. Yeah, which- I'll take it. Yeah, I'll take it. No, seriously. oh Felix and I have had so many conversations with the first parties about their ah setups.
Speaker: ah But no, literally the fact that they did a remake of this like absolutely behemoth game that was way too fucking big. um And they did this in like less than a year and it just came last week. That's what's wild. Now knowing that they did it in 10 month cycle is wild. And it has like a Metacritic like 90 or something. I mean, we yeah were're we're talking here about like being a fly on the wall to figure out how they do that. I feel like Trails has actually given me the answer for a lot of these examples, which is like,
Speaker: They've just been doing this for so long with like a stable team that they they don't kind they just learn how to do the s thing. and they don't know eti And like Trails 1 and Trails 2, a lot of this, or Trails in the Sky 1, Trails in the Sky 2, a lot of the same assets. You're in the same cities a lot of the time. And you know how you get really good at doing something really good like on a first draft and then just shipping it? do You just get a lot of practice in. doing a lot Yeah, I think that's incredible. Like, I do think that learning what they have learned and seeing, yeah i think it could help you.
Speaker: The thing is, it's a never that is something you cannot get by yeah observing. I agree. That is institutional knowledge. It's chemistry. It's trust. It's all of those things with a team and understanding how they now structure at least gives you like that goal post of like okay we won't get there but maybe we can exactly it's ah it's sort of like a a north star you don't never really gonna get there yeah but i think it's like annualized franchise where the credits are done in two minutes yeah i i have not where what else releases a game every year aren't there there's other students do one every single sport games sports game call duty
Speaker: Yeah, sports games are fascinating also, um especially right now with all the news happening. i'm curious how, you know, sort of what... I mean, those are also made on 10-month cycle.
Speaker: Yeah, they have to be, right? And so it's it's very um additive, right? so their their structure theirre planning for production is to say, we're going to use this infrastructure again, which is so rare in in and then lots of reasons, right? And then when they need to where they need to change the infrastructure...
Speaker: That is the entire focus of that year's product is we're changing the infrastructure and we're going remove content because we're not going to have the time to convert all of it. And then the next year is going to be have all the content again, but in the new structure.
Speaker: It's so interesting to me and it is something that I envy in a way, like the idea that what we're building right now is with the intent and and the priority and the value of using it again versus I mean, for like again, lots of reasons isn't a bad thing, but like as especially as Indies, we're lucky when that happens.
Speaker: I know doing that at any given moment is like knowing what we're going make. And exactly. It's like it's like, Alan, if like if we had known during the development of Monsters Expedition ah that the next three games were going to be a Monsters Expedition two, three and four.
Speaker: Like it allows you to build up that pipeline in like a way where you could in the future streamline that content. But also like no one is going to be able to make the decision up front. Oh, the next game is like the next three games. We Monsters Expedition two, three and four.
Speaker: Yeah, but we we are doing this a little in that we're using a lot of the same code base for Godot for Spooky Express and for the new game, which we haven't talked about.
Speaker: That's very exciting. And i love I love when we do get to do that and we've been in the industry for 20 years. So it's like one of those, like, yeah yeah we you know, that it took us that long to get there and be able to do it. And I think observing how other people have it.
Speaker: bluntly, we're finally reaching the point where the tools are matured. Yeah, until they change them in a couple years. Well, and then until they change them, but right, but like... know, but like...
Speaker: I worry. A lot of the plugins, like if you if you build a lot of your project around the rewired plugin and unity, I've got great news for you about how how transferable that plugin, that plugin knowledge is going for. True. Like is if you are looking to take it elsewhere. and and and I think a lot of our games also, if we're looking to make something similar, our own we're familiar with our own project is ah is a benefit of it, especially as a very small team. Right. Like, even if we can't reuse it, we know the logic. We can reuse it in a way. Yeah, it's a big up. I think engine, but having your own proprietary engine at ah at a AAA is what's so, the thing that I'm not never thinking about, right? Like I always tend to forget that they've built this infrastructure for themselves. That's what they spent time doing. And now they're building on it. And we just don't have that luxury. We're kind of at the whim of of what,
Speaker: you know the engines are going to do and say yeah i mean so um it it's funny yeah just to go back to trails like they they had been running on um fire engine for a few years and then they ah went and they built their own engine and then suddenly as soon as they built their own engine that's when they started hitting the accelerator on development time like so like oh our engineers don't have to uh figure out how to work fire engine an engine that i bet alan has never heard of before i i I've heard of it. It's F-Y-R-E, right?
Speaker: a PH. PH. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's ah yeah if it's not if it's not really cold, it's got to be really hot. you know, that's how that's how engines work. um i Alan, do you remember... i like One thing I feel like I have a little bit of envy about is friends making small enough games that they're making their own engines and they're in control of that engine, right? And then I think about it for about 10 minutes I'm no longer envious. But the idea of of being able to say, ah, yes, this is what we need. Great, let's build let's build it in, right? Let's figure out how to do that. Does sound enticing.
Speaker: And with all the sort of, I'm wondering, both of you, have you encountered... many games that are sort of doing that right now or trying to make their own engine in a way. I've i've encountered quite a few. I'm just curious if you two have.
Speaker: um No, I mean, i i still think I see it at the indie scale, like building your own engine as this like death knell for productivity. um But I do, like what we're doing with Goto is very much like building an engine within an engine. And I think I've seen teams do that with Unity. i I'm seeing teams do that with Goto. Even GameMaker.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. game make yeah but That was a big we we we I feel like the industry, the indie scene had such a cool moment in. We need a new game maker.
Speaker: Exactly. And we a game maker. Well, it's a cool moment. I was going to say YoYo Games would tell you that that's Game Maker 2.
Speaker: I. we curious. Yeah, ah I I work it it on it right now. I will ah remain curious. I am positive feeling positive.
Speaker: it is not my It is not my NDA to break. Yeah, but I am excited for every time one of the Unities does something and we all go, oh, shit, we have to pay more for it. Tim Sweeney says something.
Speaker: Or Tim Sweeney says something. Or like something happens and we're like, oh, fuck, we wish we had... Sorry, can I swear on this podcast? I apologize. I we could i wish we could... just not have to deal with that side of things. And Godot is so, I mean, it's so lovely to sort of, unfortunately, in my world, I had to sort of take a step away from hands-on development for a while and I went away right at the beginning of Godot and was doing a lot of business stuff instead and like I came back you know sort of this year and went oh it I can I can use it it's like it was i I had never in my wildest dreams imagined that Godot would have such dedicated amazing people that are looking to actually make it usable that it would get done and I am so grateful for that I just hope that that isn't that isn't something that
Speaker: is singular i do hope that we get another game maker i hope we get yeah some more weird little things you know like i there's no reason and i i think goddow has the right vibe that we're gonna see a lot of people building cool stuff on goddow yes and that's what i'm hoping for now exactly yeah yeah um it's it's funny because the first few commercial projects i saw using Godot, a lot of my question is like, why? Why would you use Godot for this? And now I feel like people have settled into like what Godot strengths are. ah
Speaker: The remake slash port of the Wii game Sonic Colors was made in Godot. And oh I couldn't get a good answer for why. Also, it had such game breaking rendering issues that it had to be, I believe, temporary, temporarily delisted as an epileptic seizure hazard. Because it could the renderer could break and start just strobing. Every texture just starts strobing every color. Oh, no. And i that's that's this is early engine problems. with yeah Yeah. And so people like people like that I know were reaching out to me because they know that I work in games and they're like, do you know why they would have chosen an engine like Godot over an engine like Unity? I'm like, yeah, they wouldn't have to pay for it. Is Godot like mature enough for a Sonic game? And im like, probably not.
Speaker: Probably not yet. mean, we're getting there now. It has, like, a fascinating history. Like, the code base is way older you think. It like, years ago that this game released. And the, like, it wasn't called Goodo for all of that time, but, like, it's been, like, this, like, kind of Frankenstein thing of, like, it's based on an older engine by a different name and, like,
Speaker: but and And ironically, that kind of like, oh, this is a this is a game engine that you've probably never heard of. that like That's the kind of thing I can compete see people choosing to make a Sonic game in. Yes. yeah That makes sense to me. Like, oh, we made it in assembly for no reason. And you're okay, cool. Why? Yeah. like i yeah like i I imagine there's, ah i I want, i I am now at the age, I think, in games where I am curious about unearthing weird shit like that and doing something in it. in my spare time. You know, like I am, was like, should I make something you know,
Speaker: you know the Quake engine. Yeah. I mean, Felix, told you about at the time ah that i was working on it, producing the freaking NES game I produced and how complete how I had to relearn literally everything because they made art assets yeah for 80% of production and then they developed the game because it was all about what can you fit in the file size and not about what does you run. Yeah, you gotta know how big your...
Speaker: Yeah. Put all your sprites in first. Yeah. maybe so Yeah. So literally I would just like ask the team for like, is there anything playable yet? And they'd be like, no, do you want to see our sprites?
Speaker: And I'm like, I mean, yes, but also. Again, a production pipeline. I cannot fathom. Pico 8 has some of that vibe. I've been wanting to come back to Pico8. Talk to me about Pico8 a little bit. like How is it going in the community? i I'm not super involved with that community. I just like i see a regular influx of like people making interesting stuff in that engine.
Speaker: It's true. It's absolutely true. And it is so flexible and easy and fun. and i think that like ah ah Flexible in terms of its constraints are really, really easy to understand and then workaround. I feel like it's a very fun... I thought i want to play in Pico more. There's a 16 now, right?
Speaker: ah I forget what it's called, but yeah, there's there is like a more advanced engine. It's a 16-bit version now you that I haven't played with at all that I'd love to get into. I mean, 16-bit my heart, so... That's what I mean. once Once I was told that this last weekend, I thought, ooh, maybe I'll check it out again. but i i The thing I think probably I want the most now is Picotron.
Speaker: Yes, Picotron, thank you. I want a way to browse weird stuff. You know, like I still look at rooms on my phone a lot. I don't know if anyone's familiar with the app rooms, but it's it's like a little vignette. Might I recommend to you the Playdate?
Speaker: Yes, we can also talk about the Playdate, which I also worked on lot. Sam, we've spent a lot of this podcast talking about a lot of things without actually digging into anything interesting about the specific projects you've worked on, which is very funny. That's fine. we can we but And and this is this is a great one. This is a great segue. One of the things I want to do is sit with Pulp, which is a very cool, bitsy-like...
Speaker: Um, editor for play date. And if you're not familiar, play date is this weird. I mean, everybody listened to this knows what a play date it is because how did you get here? If you're not a little weird, little freak, but like, you know, it's a small handheld, with really cool inputs.
Speaker: Um, it's, it's reminiscent of, you know, the game boy days, but it's very light, very easy to carry around and it's open source. So you can make anything for it and upload to it if you want. And so pulp is this engine you can get made by some lovely folks over the work with panic and.
Speaker: It's so fun to just mess around in there. Playdate itself, looking through the store really, really fun. Just like browsing things in general. I think I need to, I need that more.
Speaker: Yeah, I need to get off my phone. You're right. i just need to pick up my play date. You're 100% correct. That's all it is. Like, that's the kind of inspiration I need right now is like, okay, what are people making small and I use itch all the time. So itch is what I use the most. I didn't even mention it because I assumed it was the default we all know about. And that's the thing I'm looking at.
Speaker: But sometimes I want a set of I want to see what people made within a very interesting set of constraints. And that's more like a game jam browsing through the results of that. Right. And I think Hardware is such a cool little constraint. Like the fact that it's a play date is what makes that so neat. So yeah, I agree. I think pp getting into pulp might be the good thing.
Speaker: um it's It's very cool. I... Yeah, there's some there's some really, really cool shit on the play date. So you don't use. I haven't looked in about in months. Yeah, so I'm so excited. Yeah. So the company that I'm full time employed at, um Plastic Fern, is the official QA partner of Panic for Playdate. So we QA all of it.
Speaker: And it's I i don't. I don't personally work on those games, but every time I see one come in, I look at it, I'm like, this is the coolest thing! Yeah, ooh, wanna play this! yeah Yeah, I really think those constraints, the constraints of the hardware, make for some really interesting And also interestingly scoped insofar as it is small games, right? And I want us to, I really, I i could talk for hours about Roblox and and how- I was going to me bring up Roblox, you know. Me too, bad face. figured.
Speaker: and and And the idea that there is an engine out there that a bunch of people are using. and And, you know, I think there was a real opportunity for some cool creative stuff to happen at Roblox. And again, the values of the company dictated that it wasn't important to them, that it was easy or interesting to make really cool, interesting things. It is a an engine for a specific kind of audience, right? Like I find that and and because of the way it's structured, it's impossible to find anything.
Speaker: And you're also just wading through thousands of strangers that are probably pedophiles. So it's like, it's just such a horrible place to be that I don't I don't use it. But I have, you know, friends, kids in the family and stuff. And I I do entertain them and their thoughts on Roblox. And it's so sad to hear that none of them know it's an engine. Like I, so few of them understand that they could be making things in it.
Speaker: And that wasn't true. I think during the pandemic, I think a lot of kids during the pandemic were making stuff in it. And I'm worried that that not worried. I'm sad that that never, it didn't catch on in that way. Well, I think it's also ah people, the, the monetization of it and the, and the child labor of it all. I think also,
Speaker: It's like, I'm glad they're not, but I, I would love if they knew it. And was you could also make a similar thing about like, Oh, it's a shame that dreams didn't. yeah Yeah. So, so I was going to bring up dreams. I, I, two nights ago, we were talking about games with some friends and I said, I miss dreams. Like I miss dreams all the time because I used to but dreams was my rooms, right? I loved going into it and just browsing the weird stuff people had made and seeing the like, cool it was beautiful and it was all art. And I, I didn't, again, I'm not,
Speaker: Right now, I'm not even discussing the like value in the industry of either of these ah product engines slash games. But like it was it was reminded me of the Flash days, which is probably what I'm actually citing here in my core, is the ability for people to make games easily and then upload them somewhere and me to find them. And I think itch is the closest thing we have, but it is...
Speaker: i i want I don't think it should be on itch alone. I don't think it should be the only place. I think we if we have multiple places, we have multiple places in seeing things. you know like i i I'm so curious to see if this if the art spaces yeah stay with all of the weird sort of ah ah marketplaces and storefronts are not the best place to launch your game right now. right like All of us are sort of going, we can't do it. It's really hard. We could have 10,000 podcasts on that alone.
Speaker: But I think with art spaces, when it's not necessarily the goal to make money, although we all should be able to, it is more about sharing your weird little freaky art that you just made.
Speaker: Stuff like itch is, i want more curation and weirder little things, right? And yeah't TikTok doesn't have this. And like, ah you know, it'd be really nice if there was a way i maybe i'm also alan do you ever feel this way and saran as well like do you ever feel this way that we i miss twitter but not twitter at all i just miss yeah having a feed that i can look through and see what people are up to you know yeah we just don't have that in the same way no because that that is the primary thing that got fractured is like i can be in touch with the people that i care the most about from that era but it as discovery is like really hampered
Speaker: Yeah, I used to find so many games just looking through. And and now, ah again, there are places to do this. I'm not saying there aren't, but it is interesting how I i have changed the way I look for games. I have changed the expectation I have for how someone will find my game. i am now acutely aware where I don't think I was 10 years ago that if someone does not know the name of my game, they will not find it on any of the platform stores because they are not going to be browsing them.
Speaker: have They have just type it in. We can solve all these problems if we just make a new game engine that's and make it a new social network. Make a new storefront. I'm down with storefront being like it where there's multiple ways to like browse content. Maybe and i mean if we're going to use an algorithm, maybe an algorithm that you get to curate yourself that has nothing to do with anybody else. We should ring up Joe and say that he needs to pitch a thinkygames.com store.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yes. Yes. Great. I'll do right now. which Yeah. I'm sorry, Joe. Advance. That's not oh start something new. You have enough on your plate. Yeah. Well, um so, yeah, we should. Unfortunately, I do have a heart out, but I know I'm so sorry. Like I said, this this I said before we started recording, this feels like this is going to feel like it could go for three hours because as soon as we get to talking, we're going to get to talking. ah And Alan, I have questions for you about.
Speaker: games that have released and i want to know your opinions on things you know i know i can just call you i know but this podcast deserves to hang up and then the two of us it's true i need to go well um all right Felix, is there anything you want to plug?
Speaker: i Well, we just released, Seren is a huge part of this. yeah Super Hypercube, a 10-year-old game. a Listen, there's nothing more relevant than PlayStation VR 2. than releasing PSVR 2 game in 2026, baby. And we did it. It's awesome. It's beautiful. It's really good. It's great puzzle game. If you're listening to this, you really it. Is Steamframe?
Speaker: It works on Steamframe. We haven't updated it with the new controller models yet, but I have multiple confirmations that it works great. So absolutely try it on your frame. I will also emphasize, while we're saying here, an immense shout out to Andy McClure for her work on Super Hypercube, PSVR2, the single most load-bearing part of that project by Rili Miles. Absolutely, and Edward Rukukurumi. That was a really cool, like I'm so grateful there were more people than I thought that would remember it, just even on socials. Like we're talking about not being able to see people on socials. Even when I could see, I was like, oh, it's really lovely. It is a game 10 years ago. It was, you know, it's VR, it's weird.
Speaker: So happy to see people liking it. So yeah, Super Cover Cubed. I'm just happy, bluntly, like out out of everything, that you and I finally actually got to work on a game together in ah any context. like It's wild that it took us 10 years to overlap in any way. it's It doesn't make any Yeah, we just dancing around each other. mean, you got you got me the job at Drakknack. Well, we were put, did I really? yeah.
Speaker: you know Yeah, I told the story like three times. I didn't realize i was the... I was the... Nobody else referred Soren to me.
Speaker: I didn't know that. yeah I don't think I asked anyone else for advice. Yeah, you asked Felix for a producer, and Felix said you should go talk to Soren, and then it took like a month to get Alan to send me that goddamn email, and then ah here I am, ah six and a half years later. am pleased.
Speaker: I'm so pleased. Yeah, I feel like we could talk about... There's a bunch of cool... I want to... I want to work on a book, on a puzzle book. Yeah. And I think that's a really cool idea. And I'm discussing the payoff of puzzle books and how you pay off a book versus a game and what that looks like. Yeah, you should talk Blasch that. Yeah. I'm going to listen to a couple episodes. Recommend me an episode, too, if there's anyone you've got on there. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: uh not the most recent one uh there's an episode that is like i think it but might but might be 59 58 somewhere around there that is um that's alan and i talking to blage about uh work work work and some and her and heard and some of his other like physical books and the and specifically having worked on luck digital and then going back to physical and like beautiful the change in mindset that that brought excellent conversation excellent we're gonna oh That's exactly what I'm listening to. I love being on an episode of the podcast and plugging a previous episode of the podcast to our listeners also. It's so easy. Yeah, go back and listen to other episodes in the feed. They're all good. And then tell other people that they're really good. And then please tell other people and rate and review us. Like, please. Oh my God. No one rates and reviews us. I don't even care if you rate and review. I know that algorithmically that's good, but I don't care about the algorithm. I care about the people. Yeah, go tell someone that this is that this is like a meaningful podcast.
Speaker: And follow us on great YouTube where you can also listen to this podcast, but we're also trying to do more stuff on YouTube. Like yeah I hear YouTube now, ah you should follow on YouTube. It's back again. It's back. It may or may not be training on your videos to use its It probably is, but don't think about that.
Speaker: We can all just put up VTubers instead of our faces. Well, YouTube doesn't get our faces. but I mean, if they're stealing your video for oh yeah your audio as well. i know Yeah, the scraping audio. Anyways. OK, my darlings, this has been wonderful. Yes. I love puzzle games. We didn't talk about any puzzle games, but I just want to say.
Speaker: No, the puzzle games are great. and um ah Felix, we're going to be talking to you about puzzle games in like a week. Yes. So how of buy i mentioned it. Yes. No, don't worry. Don't worry. of Puzzle games, puzzle games and the people who make them. ah Thank you again for joining us.
Speaker: ah Where can people find you online? Lego butts is my handle where I do exist, which is on most social medias that existed except for the bad ones. Um, and I am, yeah, that's mostly it actually just hit me. If you, if you need me, hit me up on like blue sky. Um, I answer those, those, you can DM on blue sky these days, right? you can That's a thing you can do. yeah I think you might have to set your blue sky DMS to be open to people that you don't follow, but.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't think I've done that. But yeah, yeah yeah absolutely. Okay. Thank you again. And thank you for listening to the Draconeck and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoise.com. Note the new URL. Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.
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