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Culture, Partnerships & Community Building in Web3 | Alex Fazel | WT3 012
18 Plays10 months ago
"In Web3, your network is your net worth."
Dive into episode 012 of What The 3, the no-bs podcast for emerging tech startups.
In this captivating episode, we explore the intricate world of culture and partnerships in Web3 with Alex Fazel of Swissborg, a prominent figure in the cryptocurrency space. Our hosts Charles Algar and Thomas Van Den Broek delve deep into the strategies that drive successful collaborations in this rapidly evolving industry.
From navigating the challenges of crypto winter to fostering authentic relationships, our guest shares invaluable insights on building trust, leveraging community, and creating meaningful partnerships. Learn how traditional business principles intersect with Web3 innovation, and discover the importance of a people-first approach in this technology-driven landscape.
Whether you're a seasoned Web3 professional or just entering the space, this episode offers a wealth of knowledge on cultivating a thriving ecosystem through genuine connections and shared values. Don't miss out on the strategies that could elevate your Web3 journey!
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Transcript
Introduction: Strategies for Selling and Growth
00:00:01
Speaker
oh Welcome to our episode here today talking about strategies for selling your product and ensuring sustainable growth. Today
Meet Alex Faizel: Swissborg Leader
00:00:08
Speaker
we have Alex Faizel. Welcome ah the founding team member of and chief of partnerships officer and head of communications at Swissborg. With a background in sales, sales training, and coaching ineffective communications with TEDx. Alex is known for being the public face of partnerships at Swissborg, the leading European community-centric wealth management platform with over 1 million users.
Swissborg's Success in Web3 Space
00:00:31
Speaker
Alex, thanks for being with us here today.
00:00:33
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me on the show, gents. 1 million users. That's massive. like you know Like for everyone who is not in Web3, getting a million active users in Web3 is incredibly hard. And um you have, I think, but like of at least Swissbork has probably been leading that ah success, or at least that success story, specifically when it comes to these kind of companies.
Alex's Web3 Journey and Vision
00:00:58
Speaker
So Alex. um how do you like How did this start? like what where Where also I think that got your interest in in wealth management at Web3? Because there's a lot of wealth in Web3. But how do you ah you start this? And then where like how do you peo near this? Because you're youre like Swissborg, and I think all of you guys ah are peo nears in space, right?
00:01:23
Speaker
Yeah, so it's a really good question. And it's a very casual answer. um i I remember it like perfectly. It's so vivid. It's one of those moments and in life, even though I'm aging, I'm 44 this year. you know I feel like your memory really captivates some specific moments. And I was walking down the streets of Shimbashi, Tokyo, just finishing a shift. I used to work as a consultant, and I was helping different companies with corporate training and stuff like that. And my brother tried to call me three times in a row. I was about to take the train, the Yamanote Line, which is the major train line that loops around Tokyo City. And he just was really insisting. And I'm like, OK, I'm going to skip the train. I'm just going to listen to the call. And all of a sudden, he, with just unlimited passion and enthusiasm, he started throwing all these crazy words. I mean, Alex, there's a complete shift in the financial worlds.
00:02:18
Speaker
ah There's something called the smart contract, which was built by Ethereum and the entire economy is going to be built on chain. It's going to be a token economy and blah, blah, blah. And he was like really hitting me with so many words. I'm like, Cyrus, calm down. First of all, I don't have a background of finance, so I have absolutely no clue of what you're talking about. And number two, like why all of a sudden? And he said, because I want to start a company called Swissborg, I want you to be a part of it. Let me call you again and I'll give you more information on this. And the funny thing, guys, here, Thomas and Charles is if we fast forward to May 2024, just last month, Larry Fink, the CEO of BlackRock, who's now planning on creating
00:02:57
Speaker
a challenger to the New York Stock Exchange, actually mentioned exactly what my brother told me on that call in 2016 of November, which is the entire financial industry will go on chain. ah So it's crazy, man. It's crazy how all of a sudden this story, which was already cool back then, but as soon as I saw Larry Fink announced that on you know the biggest financial media networks of the US, Then I realized, holy Shemoli, what a visionary. That's that's incredibly wild. And it's it's funny that you're saying this because we had a while ago we had awkward lobster on the on the podcast ah from core blockchain, the CEO of core blockchain.
00:03:38
Speaker
And ah he works with his dad and and he said something similar. His dad said 10 years ago, something very similar. And so I think what your brother said, it's like, no, this whole landscape, what we're going to see is completely going to change. And it takes, I guess, visionaries to see that, right? um And then and know people like yourself to jump on the bat, I guess, are like, let's do this, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm going to be ah brutally honest, like I came in for the money. So for the extrinsic motivation, but I'm sticking here for intrinsic motivation because I understand what it's doing for the greater good. So all of those out there, if they came in because the original agenda was just to make a few bucks. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing as long as we understand why we're here further down the line.
00:04:22
Speaker
So but was there a specific moment where you just like, you realize like, oh, this is not, I'm not here for the money anymore. I'm actually here for something greater.
Impact of Political Sanctions on Finance
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, so our family has a really bad legacy with the banks. And I'm not going to say no we're not criminals. We've never been arrested or anything like that. Let me just make sure that it's not that angle. We can edit this out. It's cool. ah But what I mean by that legacy is, well, first of all, um my brother and I are Swiss-Iranian. So for those who don't know much about history in the Middle East in 1978, there was a revolution where Iranians had to flee and all of their land and bank accounts were fully confiscated.
00:05:06
Speaker
So you didn't have that unconfiscate ability of owning your own ledger and controlling and owning your financial assets. So that's one story even before we were born and it really hit our family hard because you know overnight guys imagine you having to leave your country for whatever reason. and the house that you bought, the land that you bought, the bank accounts they're using locally all gone. Imagine that overnight. like That's how bad it is. So you can see already where we're going with this story, right? And then further down the line with the embargoes on Iran, when you know the US presidents, because of political you know tension and you know, kids, you know, fighting in a playground. ah What happens is when you put someone on this on a list of sanctioned countries, you're you're cutting off the entire population from the financial grid. And that is scary, because all of a sudden, you know, during the pandemic, when my dad, he lost his job, first of all, when there's an embargo, because you also cut the the abilities to do business with some countries. um And he has no money. And what Iranians would do are people who live in these type of
00:06:11
Speaker
difficult situations is they rely on cash a lot. So yeah let's say Thomas and Charles, you know, you have someone in, I don't know, a company, a country, sorry, that is affected by politics, you have to bring them physical cash. But then when you travel, as you guys know, there's a limit in terms of how much cash so you would have to have someone flying back and forth, maybe with a limit of $10,000 each time to support that family member who's cut off the financial grid. But all of a sudden with Bitcoin, a lot of people, what they were doing is they could send money to the local sadrafi Sarafi, which means local exchange in Farsi. And people could swap their Bitcoin, they could swap their USDT, they could swap their Ethereum directly to the local Tumman, which is the the currency of Iran.
00:06:57
Speaker
So you you see my point here, that's a second very clear story that connects directly to our family. So I didn't get that immediately in the in the early days, but I think for everyone to find their own purpose, um we really need to connect on an emotional and spiritual level and intrinsic level, as I was saying earlier, rather than just extrinsic. I mean, to to dive in here, I don't think there's anything wrong with starting out with trying to make a few bucks. I mean,
00:07:24
Speaker
There's nothing wrong with that. When you're like finding a way to the intrinsic, but starting with the extrinsic, I think that's how a lot of people, especially came in late to crypto yeah and the web free technology started, right? A hundred percent. We've seen it in our industry. and like Even I started like that. You know, we got contracted to build a layer zero a really long time ago, like seven years ago. um And I was like, oh yeah, they're great at contracting. And then later on, you start like you know looking into what the vision actually is. You start to realize like, yeah shit, this actually has has value. um And then you know i'm I'm from the Netherlands and rich, white, ah Western country. um But to your point, I think your backstory, I think, is super powerful when you look at
00:08:13
Speaker
what Web3 and decentralized finance can actually offer people that are being you know sanctioned for whatever reason. Because it's very black and white. you livet You live in Iran, you don't have access to anything. And it might be there might be bad players um there, but there's also a lot of good people. And they also get hit by these embargoes. So um beautiful. I think that's that's ah that's a very very think beautiful switch for hey going go for money to building something that's a lot bigger than just money. um So you know you guys started building this, of course, and you as a founding team member, like kate can you tell us a little bit about some of the early challenges and and also the ah early
Swissborg's Early Challenges and ICO Decision
00:08:56
Speaker
wins, right? Because they're am i they're equally important. You learned from the the early challenges, but it's also very important to celebrate those so early wins. Can you give us a little bit of insight on these things, um on um what what went on ah during the early days of Sysboard?
00:09:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely absolutely. So I think the core recipe and it kind of, this kind of ah blends off or bleeds off to some of the later points we're going to cover. But I think one of the critical moments is when we decided to do an ICO, which was early 2017, my brother came to visit me in Tokyo and I was walking down the streets and our other co-founder, Anthony Le Soimier, actually, Anthony, my brother, Cyrus and I, we've known each other since high school. So we've known each other for a very, very long time. I've always felt tremendous energy from this guy. We were never really close friends, but it's just, I don't know if you guys can understand my feeling here, but there's just some people you meet in life, some guys that you feel there's good energy. You just want to be with that person without really being able to ah frame it on a rational standpoint. And so there's just always really good energy, almost like Destiny was
00:10:02
Speaker
putting us together. And when I saw the dynamics of my brother and Anthony, both co-founders together, they were just so complimentary, ah very little ego, because ego is a very, very ah dangerous trait amongst co-founders, right? That could literally send a company to the ground, right? um So there was They're very complimentary as in character and also expertise. So Anthony is an engineer by academics. So engineers, as you guys know, they're very good at problem solving. They're very good at processes, procedures, you know, ah quality assurance.
00:10:43
Speaker
While my brother is very result and more people oriented and more big picture, so more vision and where we want to go, how do we navigate the boat rather than you know building the right wood or using the right screws for the boat right or the right um items to today help help it move forward. So I just saw the dynamic from them from a skill and personality standpoint. And then I saw the dime dynamic in terms of responsibility.
Company Culture and Personal Development
00:11:08
Speaker
So Anthony, because he's almost without any ego at all. He was completely okay, not just on paper, but in terms of mindset, to let my brother be the decision maker. And that's really tough, guys. That decision-making responsibility, even on paper, ego always clashes. And I saw that perfect synergy. um And I thought, oh my God. And I told my brother, you can ask him this. I told him,
00:11:35
Speaker
ah word-for-word, face-to-face, I said, Swissbork's going to be successful. I'm so confident about this. And he's like, why? And I say, because of the dynamics you have with Anthony. like it's That's everything, guys. you know it's like The dynamics that two co-founders have is like the president with his with his board of advisors. It's like parents, a mother and father with their children. Because ultimately, when you have those dynamics, it transcends transcend through the entire company via what we call a culture. So ah yeah, that was absolutely the biggest win um from the get-go, which really brought me on board. And I left everything I was doing. I was trying to run two startups. I was coaching other startups to help you know raise money. um And i just I just dropped everything. I said, oh, this is going to succeed.
00:12:25
Speaker
Wow. That's also, you know, your brother Anthony, that's a lot of trust towards each other. And obviously that that a lot of time spent in high school, I think that helps. But then still, you know, like being together for so long and then um build something together. Those are two different things. And then having so little ego, that's you don't hear that often. Definitely not in our space. And I can imagine that that's from your perspective. Yeah, it's like, all right. Yeah, this makes sense. I mean, um we're going to make this successful. So Then to add, like, were there any any challenges around that as well? Because, you know, great co-founders, great, great product. But I i assume there were some pivots. There were some places where you're like, oh, you you're the more outward facing person, community wise as well. Were there specific challenges that you you walked into early stage?
00:13:16
Speaker
Absolutely. So hiring is probably one of the most complicated parts, right? Because even if you have, you know, an amazing mother, amazing father, you may have a devious kid, right? to
00:13:30
Speaker
so ah So long story short, um and it's going back quite we're circling back to the intrinsic motivation. I think rather than just having like job applications or offers online, like you got to go out. right You got to go out. And what they did extremely well was, before signing our CFO, Jeremy Bowman, and our CTO, Nicolas Ramon, They literally were dating them for a long time. So they already saw Nikola. They knew what he was building with Silicon Valley in terms of the technology. He was very good in terms of his schooling, but also very good on the practical engineering side. So they really wanted him. He was based in Geneva. And so they would actually go to his office, invite him out for lunch, and they would try to steal his heart on an intrinsic level.
00:14:15
Speaker
and not just here's the salary, here's the bonus and blah, blah, blah. So it's, I think the trade off guys, as you know, it's it's a lot longer to hire people that way. It takes more time, but I think they realized that the pillars of a foundation need to be like rock solid. So they absolutely wanted him as a CTO. ah They absolutely wanted Jeremy as a CFO um and our chief compliance officer, Christophe as well. They all got them by the soul first and the heart and the mission. um And you know these guys, once again, you know they can probably get twice the salary they get with us by working for Google or any other big tech firm, right? But the mission drives them most, right? What they do and have the freedom to decide what technology they want to build and create a legacy for themselves in the longer run. so
00:15:04
Speaker
I think, um and if you do hire, by the way, guys, people that are not the right fit ah in their early stage, you got to cut fast. Just cut, you cut the fat as fast as you can, trim that fat as fast as you can, because one bad apple really can create a rotten batch. And that's, I think that's one of the, if you're talking about problems, ah Thomas and Charles, like the biggest problem is do not linger on bad apples. Get them out, get them out of ASAP. I know that's friction, but that friction in the long run is going to create a very strong emotional base for you and really teach you how to become a business person. So that's probably maybe we held on to some people who are not in it for the vision and the mission and more in it for just quick money. So don't forget to cut the fat.
00:15:54
Speaker
I absolutely agree. It's probably the hardest thing to do. And I think also definitely early stage, you want to believe that there's a change, but in people, if they're not able to either with the mission or the vision or the speed of the project. And it's very often, I think, an easy piece where you say, OK, well, give three months. Sure, if you're a 500 people organization, you have that overhead, not a problem. If you're with four people or 10 people, it makes a massive impact. It makes a massive impact with four to 10 as exactly. Exactly.
00:16:29
Speaker
Look, I love these anecdotes. If we could talk about it for a long time, I would want to touch a little bit on um on on your TEDx background because, you know, we spoke about that and it fascinated me. It's very unusual um to to like i've I've never met anyone that did presentation coaching for elite speakers in TEDx. Like first, how did you get there? And and secondly, like How did it hone your communication skills? Because you know, obviously you gave a lot to these speakers, but what what did it brought you?
00:17:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good question. And you know, for me, it was by just pure honesty, it was pure luck. So I didn't find it myself. I think in life, you know, there are multiple ways to discover what you're good at. And a lot of people, I think, do not spend enough time really digging down deep and reflecting on what am I good at? What am what what what can I do naturally that other people need to work on or need to build up that particular skill? um And I, as a kid, you know, and up until maybe my teenage years, I was super introverted. Like, I was a terrible speaker. I was good at listening. I love to listen to people. I'm ah just a person who, by nature, by default, love people. So I love hearing stories. So asking questions was pretty good, I guess, even as as a young age. But I would enjoy listening more than speaking. And it was actually a friend of mine who discovered this
00:17:57
Speaker
hidden talent. i don't know I don't even know if it's a talent if I honed it. I think it's more for me nurture than nature. So it's more just reading books and practicing and implementing and then over time you refine the art craft or the art form, right? But some a friend of mine ah who is a co-sales trainer with me in Japan, he said, yo, dude, some of the points you share is just It's just so lively. you you lit up You light up the room, and people feel you, and they leave the room so motivated. They want to come to another training. And the retention and stickiness of the corporate modules and trainings I was doing in Tokyo was super high. When I would open up a workshop, it would fill up within that company within a day or two, where other companies, would take it would take them probably like
00:18:42
Speaker
up to 10 to 14 days to fill up a single workshop. So it was the fastest ah selling workshop within these companies. And so he said, you should bring this out. You should share some of your enthusiasm and passion to the TEDx group. And so I spoke at one of the TEDx Tokyo events. And right after that, a lot of people who were actually speakers at the TEDx, they said, hey, can you coach me? and I'm like, really? Why? like and And so I really was lucky enough and fortunate enough to discover this through you know my blind spots, through external parties and friends, which was pure luck.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, pure luck. But we had our second guest, our first guest in the episode, Tim O'Brien, absolutely worth listening to. Like he he always described luck. It's like, you know, you have people that are lucky and people that don't. But it's also open your eyes for luck. Right. Like yeah you could have said to your friends like, nah, nah, it's not for me. You know, I don't out't care. And then that that would have not you're not taking that luck. So there's also a shift of what you make personally to say, like, OK, yeah, i'll I'll open myself up to this and see if it works. And then it turns out um you're actually a lot better at the way you are. You're like, oh, really? Do you really want to be coached by me? OK, that sounds good. ah Really cool. ah Once again, I think that that luck is something you probably can't force, but you can at least open yourself up for it.
00:20:09
Speaker
um I'd love to go to like the 10 advice for startup. You already dropped a couple of gems here and there. ah So i' I'm pretty excited to talk a little bit more about that ah but your your top 10, or at least like the top 10 that we got from from our ah community and listeners. And we'd love to hear your your perspective on it. um Charlie, you want to you want to start? Absolutely. I think question one is, is always with the strategy side, what key factors should startup founders look for in a potential partner to ensure alignment and the startup vision and, you know, grows and especially within the web three space in that context.
00:20:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really good point. you know One exercise that I think is very, very useful, gentlemen, you know once you've figured out you know the LEGO pieces, right where you know this guy is the right LEGO to help us build the pillars to what we think is a company that can scale, I think it's very important for founders to run a principle and values workshop. you know, just, you know, really understand each's principles and values, and really agreeing agreeing on the vision, agreeing on the mission statements, um and really getting everyone to participate. I think on a C level, because it's very likely, right, it's not guaranteed, I guess, because you still need a meritocratic system. But I think it's very important that most of these early people who will probably end up on a C level, or maybe at least MD, right, Managing Director,
00:21:36
Speaker
that they contribute to the principles and values because that refines the how you approach things rather than who you are and what can you bring to the table. So I think that's a really healthy practice that not many companies do. And you know when you have new people join the C-suite, I think you can even redo that exercise and activity. And what we would we would do is so we would have um different type of categorizations for principles and values. um And you can use different posted colors with different you know orange, pink, green, and just write a specific thing that's important to you when it comes to communications or whatever you know vertical you're discussing. Put them on a wall and try to group them into sections.
00:22:18
Speaker
and then really try to bring out of out of that, what are the principles and values that can guide us all along. So that if there is conflict, and the reason why I like principles and values guys is not just in terms of alignment, but in terms of conflict resolution, because there's going to be conflict. There are going to be arguments. Everyone thinks the company is beautiful and everyone's happy and yay, sales are up. like they had success stories yeah All of these success stories are so, opposite of what happens in real life. It's always a boiler room, right? It's problem after problem after problem, right? And so when you have those problems for conflict resolution, when you have principles and values and clear guidelines, then there's no more issue. You just look at those golden rules based on those principles and values, and you have a clear-cut answer without the the friction happening for too long.
00:23:11
Speaker
So I think that i don't I don't know what you guys think, but it's a super simple practice on how to gain alignment and solve problems like personal or human related problems. I think it creates a baseline, right? like It's just like, I think strikes me here is like in conflict, it's easy to go overboard and go crazy. But if you have that baseline of good principles and values, you always work from that. So it's sometimes you you you go overboard and conflicts become big, but it's like, okay, Can we go back to the principles and work from there? If that's possible, great. yeah and And I think, to your point, doing a workshop in this direction, definitely with a founding team or with a new C-suite member joins, it allows you to, I think, easier come back to that ah base layer, right? Like that the baseline of like, hey, but this is where we work from. Are we still aligned on that? 100%. 100%, yeah.
00:24:06
Speaker
Awesome. um So question two, value propositions. This is but something I've personally studied quite a bit.
Communicating Unique Value in Partnerships
00:24:14
Speaker
how can i How can I effectively communicate the unique value potential, the USP of my product in a partnership discussion and ah maximize engagement and interest? ah That is such an important question, Charles. I would love to hear your thoughts and you, Thomas, as well. Because, you know, before I joined SwissBorg, I was helping 500 startups, I was helping Slush. You remember the Silicon Valley days where people were raising a couple million dollars just with a white paper? Everyone thinks that's an ICO phenomenon, not at all. That kicked off in San Francisco way before ICOs, right?
00:24:48
Speaker
Um, but I, a lot of those white papers, a lot of the decks, and we also have a ventures arm and we also have a launch pad right at Swiss Borg. So we see hundreds of them. And I can tell you the most commonly forgotten or maybe undermined component is the USB, the unique selling point or the core value prop. So I think this is something that many startups still don't know themselves, to be honest. I don't know what you guys have experienced so far. always. um like I mean, we've been building web3 ventures in the last six years, I think. And there's less than a handful that I would say that I within two sentences, like, oh, you know, you speak. It's but Facebook found it, you guys found it. So how do you when you find it, but that's one thing. How do you effectively communicate that? Can I share something with you guys real quick? Yes.
00:25:47
Speaker
Have you guys read this book? Yeah. I actually haven't. No. Okay. So the reason why I'm sharing this is because I think for USPs and core value proposition, I don't think there's a better book than Blue Ocean Strategy. Because Blue Ocean Strategy, the whole concept is instead of fighting in a Red Sea with all the sharks trying to rip off the head of a tuna, all together and only catch a fin, only catch an eyeball. Why don't you just swim in your own blue waters where you're the only shark or maybe only few sharks and you can have tons of tuna to have a big juicy fat belly, right?
00:26:25
Speaker
nice And the framework is very simple, right? um The framework is when you start your own company, One of the biggest flaws that people need to remove, and I promise you because we are victims of the same problem, is you want to change the world. right you're You're going for the Silicon Valley concept of, if the vision is not too big enough, I won't invest, which is absolute absolute bullshit American BS you know to the max.
00:26:59
Speaker
um That's the opposite of what you need to do. um Obviously, if you're creating some sort of AI that is you know ah different from the current AIs that is specific to a specific industry vertical, it's much better to start off ah specific. And the framework, they have a quadrant, right? And the quadrant is very simple. If you want a core value proposition, you have to understand from a general standpoint that it's not about just creating and raising the bar. You also have trade-offs because if you want to do something better or something new, then you have to
00:27:37
Speaker
compromise on other things because you can't do everything well. You can't be a jack of trades. You need to be an ace in a particular technology, right? That's helping the world of Web3. And so rather than just create and raise the bar, you can compromise by reducing and eliminating some points. And that's the ultimate framework. And usually what happens is, are you guys familiar with Le Cirque du Soleil? ye yeah yes You've heard of Cirque du Soleil. Now, Cirque du Soleil is the first case study in the book, and I'll give you guys a concrete example of this hypothesis. right um Just for you guys to know, like the so circus world um was a Las Vegas phenomenon. right like Las Vegas was owning you know the majority of shares for circus-related acts. right
00:28:28
Speaker
And so the circus industry was a dying industry. Like, you know, the tickets weren't selling, the the balance sheets weren't looking good. It was about to die. So why is it that the Cirque du Soleil, who timed their circus in the worst times, has managed to scale and take over all the market share? It's because the Cirque du Soleil, for example, on the eliminate, and reduce on the trade-offs, they eliminated all the animals. So there's no animals involved. And why is that really good? Guys, imagine how much money you're spending to feed your tigers every day with meat.
00:29:07
Speaker
That's crazy overhead. right That's a lot of money. right And when they get sick, you have to bring them to the vet. I mean, that's a lot of overhead right in terms of costs. So they completely eliminated the animals from the circus model. And then what did they reduce?
Blue Ocean Strategy: Creating Unique Market Space
00:29:21
Speaker
They reduced the concept of you know having to get these trainers as well. Obviously, they're trainers, but they're more for human beings. What did they create? They created a concept where there's live music and live singers. right So all of a sudden, your blue ocean is not just for circus people. You can attract people who go to the cinema. You can attract people who go watch concerts. So once again, you're creating a blue ocean by bringing other people. What would those people do alternatively to circus? Maybe if you don't like a circuit circus, maybe you're a movie you know ah fan, maybe you're a sports fan, or maybe you're a concert fan, right? So they brought all those elements together and it's just really well laid out. I think this concept of, you know, once again, innovating or creating, raising the bar, but not forgetting the trade offs to reduce and eliminate so that your time is really spent efficiently and effectively to help a company succeed will naturally bring you a unique value proposition, if that makes sense. Sorry for the very long winded answer.
00:30:26
Speaker
No, I tend to agree. I'm not sure about you, Charlie. But I think we see this very often in building software, right? People come with a massive value proposition. And then we say, OK, now let's run out of POC. Go to market. Like, test, test, test, test, test. See if it's right. And they come with a POC that has 20 happy paths. It's like, OK, give me your best one. And then you get a top five. No, no, I need your best one, because that's what we're going to build. We're not going to build anything else. We're going to build your best value proposition. And it's super hard to define um Well, we work a lot with technical founders, but also non-technical founders, like, what what do I really bring to this world, but it's really valuable? um And how do I create my own blue ocean? It's it's hard. yeah there's There's a reason why a lot of people fail because of that, right?
00:31:13
Speaker
And I think but which based on what you said, Thomas, that's a really important example because, for instance, if you're saying, oh, I'm the new Ave on bass, right? I've said that's not ah that's not a value proposition, bro, because Ave can go on bass tomorrow if they've already not decided to do so. So what if Ave goes on bass? What are you going to do? Or you know if they if they say something like, oh, I'm going to challenge X, I'm going to create a decentralized social fi. And I'll have, let's say, be the ability to swap coins. like I'm like, bro, Elon is currently working on that. He actually signed an exchange to offer the ability to buy Bitcoin directly through X. So you I think it's very important that people ah really understand you know how to make their own market. And obviously,
00:31:58
Speaker
You can have a value prop that gets killed overnight by a bigger player. But it's very important for for you to really refine that, as you said, and go all in on that particular USB, 100% with you. I think that disruption, like people often say, like, oh, yeah, we're going to disrupt the space. I always laugh a little bit. It's like, it's often that the the niche of the niche of the niche that disrupts something a lot bigger, but that they do it because they are so focused on their value proposition. that it's like, OK, that small piece that they changed can has have massive consequences for an entire industry. ah But if you look like, hey, I am going to change the industry, I always loved it in Web3. It's like, oh, we're the Ethereum killer. Ah, yeah, OK. Great. Next, please. like i the the The amount of times I've heard that, OK, you built that for us. like I can't build you something similar. Yeah, sure. You want to spend, I don't know, how much money with us. I think it's a bad idea. So yeah, absolutely agree.
00:32:55
Speaker
hundred percent with you yeah um So three partnership models, what partnership models have you found are most effective in the early stages? And why? That's a really good question, um Charles and Thomas, because there is this maybe misconceived belief that you have to always use marketing agencies to grow traction, which is not necessarily the case. right um I think the most important part for partnerships, if you want like organic partnerships that will you know you can do community sharing, co-marketing, all that stuff. That's a great way to scale, by the way, if you're low on budget. But ah for me, the the simple model
00:33:41
Speaker
of creating good partnerships is, this is going to sound crazy. This is very unorthodox, by the way. Oh, we like that. My model is more of a lose-win model. You know how you know when you look at American capitalistic models like, oh, crush the competition, never split the difference. Yeah, America. you know like those Those concepts are cool. I'm i'm not saying win-wins are bad. But for me, when it came to partnerships, whether it be YouTubers that can help create content for you for free, whether it be like some strategic partnerships where you can do co-marketing, very often I go in with a lose-win mindset. And how I do that is I'm thinking, okay, how can I bring value to Thomas and Charles?
00:34:27
Speaker
um without expecting anything in return. And I must say there is a drawback to this approach because if you're looking for quick KPIs, once again, it's gonna take longer because it's like planting seeds in a garden in your farm. Some seeds won't germ. That's just the way things work. But sometimes you may have a seed that pops up and crazy things happen. I'll give you guys a few examples. So for instance, for a YouTuber, right? ah YouTubers, which by the way, we've signed over 160 affiliate KOLs, and we've generated over $30 million dollars in net revenues through affiliate marketing, which I built from scratch. So this is this is not just hypothesis. I'm telling you guys hard facts. But for YouTubers, I'll give you some weird examples. ah We were in Davos for the World Economic Forum.
00:35:17
Speaker
And as you know, the YouTubers are very strong online, but quite weak in terms of a network offline because they spend so much time in front of the screens. They don't really spend so much time going out for dinners meeting key people. And I'll always remember meeting Ivan on tech when he came to Davos for the World Economic Forum. I believe it was in 2020 Jan just before COVID hit. And he's a star. I mean, 2020, like Ivan is the man. And I mean, this is like, even before Coin Bureau became big, he was the man, right? And, but I realized that in Davos, he was almost a nobody besides the web people, a guy just walking the streets.
00:36:01
Speaker
And a nobody, not in terms of his character, just in terms of popularity. like Let's make sure I love him to death. but And so what I realized is because we're Swiss and because we had a lot of local connections, we knew where the after parties were, we knew where the side events were, where the villas were. And so you capture these people, you invite them to parties, you invite them to events. What did it cost you? absolutely nothing right they had they'd had time to wine and dine and all that kind of stuff we even went for k-bobs at 3m you know after a party um and those are those are things where once again and and i had no agenda obviously i knew that if we could work with ivan and the other people we'd met at the time it was called the moon and other guys um i knew that it could help but i didn't have an agenda i went with a pure
00:36:48
Speaker
lose win, as in I bring you value with no expectations in return, which, by the way, is great to always stay optimistic if you have no expectations. It's one of the best ways to to be an optimistic person. um And that works tremendously well for me, guys, that literally triggered. And there's OK, can I do one one last example?
Building Effective Partnerships
00:37:06
Speaker
This is the greatest example. Have you guys read the book The Five Love Languages? Yes. Okay. So this book, yeah this is going to sound crazy, but for partnerships, there's no better model. Like if I could give you everything I have on how I've managed to help scale Swissboard, you can find that in one single book, which is the five love languages.
00:37:29
Speaker
And the reason why I'm saying that is because people have different love languages. And love love is just a relationship, right? Even if we don't kiss or you know make love, love it can just be respect between bromance, between you know people who just respect each other. So what I tell like our relationship managers for partnerships, I say, listen, there are five love languages. Number one is the physical one, which obviously we don't want to kiss every single one of us out there and smooch with them. but But physical can also mean just meeting people in person, right not just always emails and video calls, go out for a beer, give him a hug, give him a handshake. right So it's a physical component. The second one is words of affirmation. Some people really care about being praised.
00:38:16
Speaker
Oh, Thomas, your podcast is the best. Oh, Charles, is you're such a smart interviewer, right? the The words of affirmation really, really help. The third one is service. So let's say, you know, you clean the house for your spouse, you do the dishes, you book a call, you book a hotel, right? And in service, in the service side, you can do a lot, right? You can, you know, when they're going to fly to token 2049, if you know about side events just like I did, you can sign them up for a side event, right? And you can give service to these people. There are people who love the fifth fourth love language, which is gifts. You you can send them hoodies, Swissborg merch. You can, ah I don't know, you can give free stuff for their community, right? um And then the fifth love language, can you help me guys? There's one more. Quality time. Quality time. So we have touch, we have words of affirmation, we have service, we have quality time and gifts, right?
00:39:12
Speaker
And quality time is like I did with Ivan and Davos. We just went out together, had a great time, had a massive hangover the next day. And I think, sorry guys, it's so weird and so unorthodox. But I think if you really look at the five five love languages and you understand the love language of the people that you're working with and you prioritize those, then you can do a killing in partnerships, if that makes sense. Yes. I had a healthcare care ah career before I started in tech and, you know, you built your relationships with your patients. In this case, we have patients that kind of rehab them back into society, long-term relationships by exactly this, right? Like if we call it effective neutral. um So you can show affection, but in a neutral way. And I think the most important pieces is that while it's meant, it's really well-meant and also it's shared, right? Like ah by but quality time, I always find a big thing.
00:40:05
Speaker
Yeah, you get drunk together, you get a hangover together, but you text each other the next morning, it's like... Oh man, I'm really hangover out of my years. But it was a great time. Yeah, it was a great time. And that that builds a long-term relationship. It takes a long, it's a slow burn. It's a really slow burn. really slow but and And to your point, like i you know i'm I'm doing this for six years, and the people that I collaborate with to this point, like some of them I know for six years, and ah it didn't start ah didn't start always great. ah But it's it's currently great, right because we spent so much time
00:40:39
Speaker
in in figuring these things out. And I think for for partnership models, it's perfect baseline to to start. ah But of course, as as long as you mean it, right? I think that's a really important piece. Exactly. And it as long as you have no time pressure, obviously, it's by the way, guys, I do believe in sales, I do believe in tactical, you know, execution and delivery. And and I've always done a combination of both. But I just think, as you said, the slower it is, the the more long term it probably is. And also like for these these love languages that I've given to these guys, and by the way, there are so many examples on the service love language, you can also get them free speaking slots.
00:41:14
Speaker
at events, at keynotes, right? Because a lot of them, they're not in the loop. They're so locked up in in their bubble in their YouTube world, right? So there's so many examples of of items. I would just recommend everyone out there to look at the five love languages and make yourself a list of what is feasible in terms of in-person, in terms of quality time, in terms of presence, in terms of, but yeah. So, um but I think what's really cool about this in the long run, Thomas, the core benefit is that you don't even need to close people. They will come and they will say, listen, I want to work with Swissboard. Can you send me over an example of an agreement and I'll get back to you. So Ivan, that Martini guy, Carl the moon, all these guys from the 2020 era, right? Like I didn't have to close a single one of them. It came from them because we had that trust. Right. And that was it. I love the next question on this, Charlie.
00:42:06
Speaker
because quote This is performance metrics. What metrics or KPIs are most critical to track or import when managing partnerships in the Web3 sector? I guess the first one we can knock off is sales you don't have to close. And then where would you take that from there? Yeah, that's a very, very good question. um for For sales, right for scaling a business development unit, um what I would say is the most important is to really understand the simple balance sheet. right How much are you paying your your team?
00:42:41
Speaker
ah how much we're bringing back. and you know Scaling, by the way, guys, is something that I think 99% of the startups out there do not understand as of today. i mean there's but there's Most crypto companies don't even have a business model. right If they didn't have equity or token raises, they wouldn't scale anyways. but um ah Just for the sake of keeping it simple today, um just understand your balance sheet. So how much am i how much do I have in debt? How much do I have in terms of of revenues being generated? What do I need to be ah ROI positive with this team? um And what do I need to hire some people? Because you know a lot of companies, when they forecast
00:43:21
Speaker
their balance sheets or if they're doing some sort of P and&L projections, right they're going to keep the costs quite linear when it's never like that. There's always unexpected costs, number one, ah so you always need a ah blanket you know ah to to be safe. um and Then, you'll need a goal to figure out, okay, I'm paying this person, this senior, this person, this salary, maybe more junior, this salary, maybe we want one more junior under this senior, so how much do I need to make plus that blanket in order to scale the the actual company?
00:43:59
Speaker
I'm really sorry if this is very generic as a KPI model, but first I think it's very important to set the final goal first. So let's say, you know, this year we need to make $1 million in net profit. Because that $1 million dollars will allow us to maybe build this technology for our affiliation to automate something. So this will go to technology. These these revenues these revenues will go to one senior biz dev. And this these revenues will go to a junior biz dev in this particular region or language.
00:44:32
Speaker
so you know i think One last comment on this all, guys, is um it's important for us, guys, in sales, ah other than the tactics or the tactical level. We can talk about that separately, but it's to really grow their business acumen. And I think that business acumen is basic understanding of accounting because already they're thinking about the business side of things um and giving them a longer term mindset. so
00:45:04
Speaker
as in not just setting monthly KPIs, but how do we scale? So how do I increase my KPIs on a monthly basis so to reach the goal that I want to reach? Because I tell everyone, when they come in, oh, as a junior, oh, Alex, like when can I be like head of business development? I said, listen, the only way to do it is to show that you can scale the team. So it's not me to decide. It's your own work. You're in control of everything. So if you can show me that you understand how to, first of all, be ah ROI positive for yourself, ROI positive for your junior, and then you can increase the revenues, increase your KPIs progressively by keeping them realistic and smart goals, as we always say, and then scale accordingly, then you won't even need my my decision or my validation for you to get promoted. right You'll just naturally have you know
00:45:54
Speaker
maybe two mid-career biz dev under you, and then five junior, and then all of a sudden it's like, okay, this guy is no longer a biz dev manager. He's at a managing director level. Does that make sense, guys, or not at all?
Prioritizing Growth: Time and Revenue
00:46:07
Speaker
For me, it does. Yeah, make sense yeah it's so it's it's very straightforward, but you're all the keys to your own castle. Exactly. Yeah. Mindful of time going to accelerate through these. so So you're trying to rapid fire through them. um Scaling partnerships was another one. As your startups grow, how should your approach to partnerships evolve? Yeah, absolutely. So I really believe in, so scalability, I see it from multiple angles, guys, right? So I see it i see it as you can increase revenues to grow a team. You can increase revenues to grow your tech.
00:46:43
Speaker
Because sometimes people don't want to grow their team. Maybe their comfortable zone is around 40, 50 employees and not go up to 250 like Swissborg, right? So understand your goals first and what do you want to scale? Do you want to scale your technology so that you can automate things more and just be more efficient amongst your peers? ah Do you want to scale in the sense where you reduce costs and expenses? So there you you see what I'm saying saying here, guys. You can scale the technology. You can scale scale the employees. ah But for everything, you need to scale revenues, is what what I'm trying to say when it comes to scaling. And I think um one thing that I see people who scale extremely well, and this is from many people I've observed,
00:47:26
Speaker
is they're so good at prioritizing time, guys. The way they prioritize time is crazy good, crazy good. um I've seen people, like, they barely do meetings, right? If there's no very clear agenda, if there's no very clear goal, if one person, key person is missing from the meeting, he will cancel the entire meeting. So really understanding your time. And really, once again, if you understand that, you know, risk reward and long-term scaling goals, and you keep that as in a simple question to yourself, what matters the most for my company to grow?
00:48:04
Speaker
this matters, or revenues, and this matters, maybe token price action. um And so for those reasons, if you have those goals, you will be able to say no to some things. And I know it hurts. And I know you won't be the most popular person in the world if you want to scale. But at the end of the day, that's that's a trade-off, right? you may You may prioritize things differently. You may not be the the prince of popularity, but at least you'll be an incredible business person. You do have to prioritize and where you spend your time. Actually, Thomas and I had this conversation recently. It's like, okay, so we're but looking at costs for certain projects. And it's like, well,
00:48:48
Speaker
I genuinely think you just could make more money, right? That's it's generally my move for these kinds of things rather than like, how can I say, like, would i would I spend two weeks trying to save 500 quid? Not really. I'd much rather like put my time into saying, okay, we we need to make another 20. And that's that's generally how I prioritize when it looks to that. It's let's look at the finance. Let's look at what's really happening. Let's look at how this really affects the project. And I don't know, where do you prioritize time? I think it's just such a key thing that, especially in the entrepreneurial game, you fuck it up often because you get caught in the operations, right?
00:49:31
Speaker
Like you get caught in how something's running when really you need to be working on the business rather than an employee in it. 100%, 100%. I think, and that's why like, I think a good sales trainer or someone who kind of leads a sales or business development team, which which was me at SwissBorg, right? Is that um just getting into that habit of getting the employees to look at the balance sheet, you know, and really you're almost like transforming them into entrepreneurs in some ways, right? And it's not to to be an asshole. you know it's It's simply for them to really see this as often as possible from a business standpoint and not just a product standpoint or a service standpoint. Yeah. What strategy is going to ensure long-term engagement and mutual benefit in a partnership, particularly in the technology-driven markets like Web3? Yeah, absolutely. so Well, first of all, I think that um
00:50:26
Speaker
long-term engagement from the company standpoint, like employees retaining employees, reducing churn, all that kind of stuff. That that comes from the culture, 100% and the culture which is connected to the purpose. And I think, you know there especially in the crypto world, like we're we're all masochistic here in some ways. It's such a painful, brutal, intense world, right? So we try to change the world. Easy and yet it wouldn't hurt. You know, there's one meme. I'm sorry, guys, this is so X rated. But let me just say it. There's one meme that I love that makes me giggle, even though I've read it a thousand times. It's like, I don't need sex because k crypto fucks me every day. yeah
00:51:11
Speaker
it's It's the thing that we should probably show to to new founders or yeah or new entrepreneurs in this space is like, are you ready for this? but I'm not sure if this should go out, but anyways, it's okay these days, you know, the community is different from the corporate clients. um But it's so true. um And I lost track of the question. Sorry, the question was, oh, in terms of managing long term engagement relationships. Yeah, so the culture is definitely for employees. Long-term relationships with companies. um I would love to rely on the the five love languages you have to meet physically. like There's something about remote work that just doesn't work. We have all the data, guys, like of people who are so remote, wouldn't come to any of our um corporate you know outings and you know the the events that we do to you know for bond building and all that kind of stuff, the corporate activities. the What are they called again?
00:52:07
Speaker
Um, the, when you go out with a company once a year, I forgot the term. We call it a a heyday, but yeah, ah retreats retreat, retreat, retreat. There you go. So, you know, we have the data guys, and I can tell you very, very easily that this sticks in, this kind of connects both the love languages and relationships in general, whether it's within the company and, or a client or a
Strengthening Culture through Physical Meetings
00:52:32
Speaker
partner. um Not having a physical connection is really bad. Like I can tell you the drop off from the engineer side who are working completely remote and never come to HQ, never come to the retreats, they're going to drop off a lot faster faster. The churn rate is a lot higher. There's something we're human beings, right? We're not robots.
00:52:52
Speaker
So you need that physical interaction. You need to meet with each other. I think some of the best, best times when it came to innovation were times where we locked ourselves up you know for a week or two with all of the Cs. right And we did workshops every day. ah We went, you know we did some hondone like you know walking and trekking together and you know doing campfires. right ah We're human beings at the end of the day. And it's the same thing with the corporate clients. Once again, ah even if you send lots of gifts, ah Even if you do some good servicing, that's great. Even if you, you know, you you still need that quality time together. You still need that in-person thing. um so I think that's the key for everything. And, you know, a lot of our really big KOLs that we lost in terms of affiliation should stop promoting us. ah ah It just happens to be those that we hadn't met them physically for over a year and a half, right? The product hasn't changed. We have given even more features than before.
00:53:50
Speaker
but it just fades out, if that makes sense. Just like a long distance relationship, right? When you're dating someone. Yeah. No, that's very true. I mean, the next question is risk management. What common pitfalls should startups avoid when entering and managing a partnership? I guess not meeting in person is probably but it's it's the thing with these questions. They kind of they kind of answer each other, which is great. But are there any other key pieces of risk management when it comes to clients or partnerships, KOLs that or or or general partnerships between companies that you would
00:54:22
Speaker
and I mean, I think that there's something that's really important, um which is expectations, right? Like really making sure that you fully understand the expectations and the expectations, I think they need to be smart goals as well. So specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, timely. um so And that's why, unfortunately, it's always good to have a document, like ah and a written agreement for all types of relationships. Even if it's cross-promotional or marketing, um it's just it's it's better to have that you know binding agreement. It doesn't have to be a legal contract, but some sort of MOU, LOI, simple agreement where both parties sign.
00:55:10
Speaker
So I think expectations is key, guys, because if there's one thing that wasn't mentioned in that agreement, and that that could kill relationship in itself, if that makes sense. And and I'll give you one example, right? Like, so there's one ah ventures company VC, where we help them, we both co invested in a project, and we brought them some very high quality content creators. um And we found out later, even though we'd verbally agreed, you know, through conversations, that we didn't want them to try to pouch our our network because we work with them constantly, right? And we create strategies for other projects. And a lot of people were circumventing us, trying to steal them from us. And that unfortunately was not, there was no agreement in place. And that that really can, that that's something that all of a sudden, if you don't have a physical agreement, the relationship goes south, right?
00:56:02
Speaker
eight feedback loops, so this is interesting. Feedback loops, growth loops, depends on what you want to really call them. um How can you establish effective feedback loops for partners to continuously continually improve the product and partnership experience? Yeah, so the this is again going to the mindset. Sorry guys, I'm going a lot back to the mindset because I think that's the core, that's the catalyst of everything. It's so everything starts in the mind. um And so in terms of mindset, I think one thing that's really important guys is an often overlooked
00:56:35
Speaker
is Is everyone okay at receiving feedback? Or do will they take it personally? Will they get hurt? Do they understand that feedback is not challenging you as a person, but challenging an idea that is not necessarily you? It's just a thought. So I think if you train people to understand that feedback will only make you better, um but also train people to feel comfortable giving the feedback,
Feedback and Continuous Improvement
00:57:02
Speaker
right? That's also a big problem, especially in, you know, Switzerland is, I think it's a less confrontational culture. um netherlands I think Netherlands is a little more direct, right? But Swiss is very
00:57:15
Speaker
We love to be direct. We love to be direct, which I love as well. But, you know, Switzerland is very indirect, guys. So if you're already indirect in your communication style and non-confrontational, feedback is already an issue because number one, people are afraid to share. Number two, people get hurt when it's shared. so So I would just really hone in in creating a culture of feedback where people starve for feedback. They're like, oh, I want feedback from all levels, not just from my my ah my superiors, from my subordinates, from people working with me, from the end user. You know, I want feedback from everyone and and just see it as, you know, you building your own armor. Right. So one to one division, if if you are if you're a gladiator or if you're some sort of like soldier, right. The first feedback is the helmet. The second is the bulletproof vest.
00:58:06
Speaker
The third is, you know, like, I don't know, cool pants. I always add to these kind of things. It's like the loops are very important and, you know, getting and and and giving feedback is very important, but also teaching how to receive and how to give, because again, in the Netherlands, it's very usual. You just, you blur it out things and people are like, all right. and If I do that to Charlie, Charlie will probably be very offended, right? Because from a British perspective, he could probably just be very rude. I'm actually a very good example of one of the founders that Charlie works with that I met in a Denver last year and I was so tired and I was hanging out with his girlfriend and, you know, doing the side events and I met this guy and he's like, oh, this is my, this is my boyfriend.
00:58:52
Speaker
and like hey man nice to meet you dude I'm super tired I didn't really want to talk about work right now and he was super offended and now there's the ah he he like we we became like really good together we had a and Good, talk about it. But now ah what he does is every time where he interviews with new people, he's like, oh, this is Ruth Thomas. He will tell you exactly what but what he wants. like And for me, that's fine. But you know for other people, there they they see that like as something that's not fine. So you've got to keep in mind, if you work with different cultures, teach other people what feedback means in their culture, but also what it means for you. right like I'm fine if people just straight up tell me,
00:59:30
Speaker
Hey, this went wrong. We need to do better. Or, hey, I've seen you doing this. What do you think? ah But other people's like, if it's non-confrontational or less confrontational, it might need to go into a hamburger style, right? Like be, hey, Alex, like, you know, your hair is really great today. Your mic, not so much. But, you know, your beard looks amazing. yeah But it's that kind of level where those loops sometimes are really hard to implement, definitely over different cultures. Yeah, and I think, you know, for me, um as someone who is, you know, I think high in emotions relative maybe to the standard, right? um I was very sensitive for a very long time because I think by definition, being being Iranian, you know, as you guys know, Middle Eastern culture is a lot more um up and down relative to maybe the Netherlands or German where there's a lot more stupid stability, I'd say, right?
01:00:23
Speaker
But ah for me, one really good trick, and I learned this very late in my life. It was only at age 42 that I realized it's such a great way to see it. And it was thanks to Nick and Tom, the co-founders of Coin Bureau. ah We were here in Dubai. And so you know the concept of never get married to your idea? yeah So that is so useful, but they gave me something a lot more useful than never go in a meeting fully married to your idea. um which is when you have an idea, what they say is we they always go in thinking that, okay, my idea is only half cooked. It's only at the 50% of its potential.
01:01:04
Speaker
Right? So they say that. um And in order for it to have 90% chance of success, I need to find the best people to give it to me raw. And they will, from that 50%, maybe, Thomas, you're going to add 15%, and you, Charles, you're going to add 15%. And by the time I finish all these very useful qualitative sessions, then all of a sudden, maybe my probabilities of succeeding succeeding with this idea is 80% rather than 50% from the original concept. I don't know if that that helps, but um I got that from the Coin Bureau guys, and I thought this was such a smart way of seeing it. I love it. and We do the same with our founders like that we built with. Just like, we're going to shoot some holes in your white paper. You're ready for that?
01:01:46
Speaker
Yeah, we're ready for that. so No, you're not, but it's okay. yeah yeah's exactly We'll also help you plug those holes and do something better. and So on on and the in the last, on the 10 questions, we've got two more. We're going to try and rapid fire them across. So sustainability practices in your experience, what practices contribute most to sustainable growth through partnerships?
Sustainable Growth through Learning
01:02:12
Speaker
learning every single day, um constantly, never staying complacent, never be complacent. um Because people evolve, we evolve, understanding oneself, understanding the other people, um never stay complacent, never be happy with where you are today and and constantly refine your skill set, I think is the the ultimate way
01:02:35
Speaker
And that that is that connects to everything what we talked about so far, right with feedback loops, with prioritizing, like with love languages, but never be complacent would would be my my ultimate answer. yeah Nice. And 10, learning from failures. Can you share an example of a partnership that didn't go well? yeah And what lessons could be learned as a result? Oh yes, I have a massive, massive failure in mind. Oh yes. we go I cannot mention the the company because they're very big. But um but I think this was a specific instance where I was prioritizing business
01:03:14
Speaker
too much rather than values and brand. And that went south. So um as much as you know I try to prioritize everything based on business, there are some times where if the fit doesn't feel right, and and and my gut feeling was never completely feeling it right. Which I think, by the way, the gut feeling, a lot of people think it's emotions, but it's basically your brain that's registered so much data and and on the subconscious level. But I think that um I went too much on the business side without listening to my gut, but also ah without focusing on other components, which is just the right type of partnership. Do we share the same values? Does this look good good for our brand? And that was a massive failure, like massive. I think we we probably lost um around 150K and made very little money from that.
01:04:03
Speaker
All right, so on to the brainstorming session. Strategies for selling your product and ensuring sustainable growth is the the topic that we've chosen. I think Web3 is one of those unique industries where selling your product is not as direct as, hey, would you like my stuff? it's you know There's a lot more relationship to it. There's a lot more Like, I guess trust and word of mouth recommendation. Like, I trust you. We work together. And then I'm going to ask one of your friends, like, have you do you know this brand? Have you worked with them before? What's your take on that? Do you feel Web3 is as different from, say, Web2 or? 100 million percent, Charles, because, you know, like, I think Web3, generally speaking, is a bit of a rebellious industry, right? And they really dislike corporate ways.
01:04:54
Speaker
you know, the less corporate you are, probably the best it is, unless you work for maybe, let's say, Circle or Coinbase, where, you know, some of their, maybe some of those companies are a lot more corporate and more in between banks and Web3, right? They're not ah either on the Web3-DGen side or the full-on TradFi side. But I agree with you 100%, Charles. I think what I've said to many, many projects who are trying to learn how to pitch is don't fucking pitch. yeah yeah kind
01:05:26
Speaker
Because there are three ways to sell, you know, either products, raise funds, you know, sell a dream. And that is the number one and the most common from the best sales practitioners is questioning. Right. yeah Rather than selling, it's questioning. So the very crafty ones. And I can show you guys a few of the systems that I've seen being executed by many, many top salesmen and that have been referenced in many books. um So this questioning formatting is is number one. Then the second part is storytelling. Storytelling is extremely powerful in Web3 because it's such an elegant and soft way of selling something and getting people just curious or interested in what you're doing.
01:06:07
Speaker
um And the third way is pitching and the only format where people should pitch is to When it when you're in a group format and you cannot customize the dialogue you're not having a dialogue you're having a monologue in front of a certain amount of people and Those are the only instances where you should pitch or else you should never pitch because it never works. And sorry for such a dirty analogy, but it's like going up to a girl and saying, hey, do you want to have sex? It's that direct, right? it's People don't like it. It's like, dude, I don't even know you. Why are you trying to sell me something or trying to get something from me so quickly?
01:06:42
Speaker
So, yeah, I like those three formats. Good questioning, storytelling. um And then also there's one key component, guys, is to have multiple ah sales pitches depending on the people. So like a trad-fi guy relative to a web 3D gen is a very different way of choosing your words. um And then maybe a newbie who doesn't know anything versus someone who's extremely, extremely knowledgeable is also completely different. so Not having a one-way ah fits all, but having multiple approaches is is a key point here on top of the three basic pillars of selling. As a choosing your audience piece, that is always I always find it interesting going to conferences, and I think I had a discussion with Charlie last week about this because we were at NFC Lisbon, a really lovely conference.
01:07:31
Speaker
And I liked it. I generally like conferences. the The thing I dislike about it is that every tri everybody tries to sell really heavily and ah we're we're sitting on the tech side of things. so um It's always like, oh, what do you do? Oh, you need tech services? Like that that's generally the conversation I have with with agencies. I'm like, no. ah Well, first off, if you didn't ask what I do, but no, I don't need tech services. um It's like choosing your audience and and to your point, like, you know, questioning, I think that's where it starts, right? like and And sometimes it means like,
01:08:04
Speaker
we We often do indirect sales, right? When you talk to people, definitely and in Web3 conferences, and it doesn't matter if it's a builder conference or or like, you know, a token, which which is, I think, more business related. um Sometimes referring people to the right or making introductions to the right people. And then often they come back later and they're like, oh, hey. You were doing tech services, right? It's like, yeah, yeah. We spoke about it three months ago. Yeah, yeah. I really remembered you because you put me in touch with that guy and I got my, so this, this piece sorted because at that moment in time, they need a legal and they need nothing else, right? So you're starting pitching to somebody that doesn't need tech or marketing. It, it, it gets off a bad impression. ah Well, if you do the other way around where you said, Hey, look, you know,
01:08:48
Speaker
We know the right people. like I can make an intro for you. The intro goes, well, there's a good chance they're coming back like, hey, thanks for that intro. And by the way, we do need that crazy smart contract for a crazy project that, you know, we're going to change the space with. Okay, cool.
Tailoring Pitches and Building Brand Loyalty
01:09:01
Speaker
Let's talk. But that's a, it's a, you don't start with questioning yet. It just, you get, it gets shoved through your throat and you're like, uh, yeah, but I don't really care about what you do or like, you know, because you don't understand what the audience is. And I think and i think you you mentioned something really important, Thomas, was is if you really want to pitch, at least ask what they do first, right? Because that's an elegant way. Because once you've given them the chance to speak, then they'll be they'll feel obliged to reciprocate. Sorry, I can't even pronounce that properly. But they'll feel they'll feel obliged to do so, right? yeah that's At least it's a little more elegant right in the way of doing it because you youd let them go first.
01:09:39
Speaker
I was just going to say, I liked your comment, Alex. like you know when some Some businesses are more corporate. It's it's part of what we do. Our aspect is that we are corporate. Our our our goal is to be that like essentially tech people defense against big corporates trying to rug pull them on contracts and or or or looking at their economies. like that's That's why I'm wandering around these conferences in a shirt. right and And it is is that kind of You go up to the side, it's like, why are you at this private event where everyone's in a T-shirt and you're wearing a shirt and like, you know, what's your fucking problem? why Why are you at my party? And then they kind of wander over and they're like, oh, so you've been in this space since 2016, 17, and you have launched some ICOs and you have launched a unicorn business and you've done all of this. And four of my friends who are also in the room, you know, invited you here
01:10:37
Speaker
Oh, you are one of us, but you just perform that function. I'm like, yeah, the reason why we wear the shirts is so you don't fucking have to. By the way, Charles, when I look at you now, you you do look more like someone who would be with Kraken and Coinbase rather than an Aave or, you know, one inch or something. Yeah. You're still fighting with one inch, by the way. we We essentially provide, I mean, regardless of of how, how deejourn you and want to be, once you get into that series A room discussion, the The quality of the deal that you're going to get out depends on the quality of the people on your side of the table. yeah And you can feel that. And and in essence, that's A, we like we prime businesses to get there.
01:11:20
Speaker
And then ensure that that steering of the ship, as you put it, that vision, that ah monetarily that monetary basis, that P&L, that balance sheet knowledge is there for these businesses. yeah and So we almost couldn't do that without wearing the shirt, you know? 100%. And I think, you know, like what we talked about earlier about having like multiple pitches, know your audience, like Thomas, you mentioned as well. like So, for example, for me, right if I meet someone who is a complete beginner in crypto and ask me, what do you guys do at SwissBorg? I will just say, listen, we've created an app, which is like the sky scanner of buying your crypto or earning interest in an easy way and at best prices. right So, I'll use the sky scanner analogy where we get you best price for buying, selling and earning interest on crypto.
01:12:07
Speaker
If I talk to a techie guy, I will say we're a meta exchange layer connecting to five centralized order books and four Solana DEXs to get you best liquidity, minimum slippage and spread, and breast rates. So that's a different pitch. And then if I talk to someone from TradFi, I'll say, hey Charles, what we're building right now is essentially NASDAQ 2.0. where where the central point where all liquidity will go that will connect the FX world, the sex centralized exchange world and the DEXs decentralized exchange. So you see already just for Swissborg, I already at least and I have millions of other examples of how I'd refine what Swissborg is depending on the audience that we know. And as you said, Thomas, even if there's no business now, as long as they understand and know what you do, something may come up later.
01:12:55
Speaker
i I have one example that's maybe left, so ah ah pretty hard. Last week, we onboarded our COO. She is non-crypto, and as she went to the first conference, and she's like, yeah, how how should I present Intersect? I'm like, no. in in In the way that you feel most comfortable with. And she came up with it and the non-tech people. She's like, yeah, we're we're a Tinder for the IT industry. Like, ah and and the funnily enough, for a lot of people there, they were like, oh, okay. So you connect like, you know, your clients with, I was like, wow, that you explained it, but she explained it better to non crypto people than I ever did. I was like, wow, that's, that's really impressive. But it's, it's, and you say that to a tech guy, he's like, okay, that's weird, right? But you say that to, to a marketing guy that has, that hasn't any idea what, what a blockchain consultancy means. And, you know, a trust layer between clients.
01:13:47
Speaker
that they You need to be very concise. And I found that a very good ah opening and opener um to non-tech people. ah And actually, I'm using it now with my friends as well. They're like, Thomas, what are you doing? I was like, we're Tinder for IT. Oh, that's great. Yeah. And then specifically blockchain. Oh, yeah. OK. That makes sense. OK. Wow. 100%. And that that's so cool. I mean, Tinder for IT. I think anyone would understand that, right? Yeah. That's a really cool example. Yeah. Yeah, we we offer very ah transactional. Oh, no no, that's not true. We actually offer very deep. That's the difference. We're probably more like a bumble. We offer in-depth partnerships and you know partnership for life. she She's going to swipe right first.
01:14:36
Speaker
In a sense, yes. I wanted to touch on one more thing, and I know we we don't have that much time, but I wanted to just just ask you one question, because this is something that I've seen our clients struggle with and generally the industry struggle with when it comes to building customer loyalty. And it's easy, I think, if you're doing something for crypto, by crypto. But how how do you create that on a larger scale? Let's say, you know, your web to users. like It's something that is seemingly really hard to crack for projects in this particular space.
01:15:09
Speaker
100%. So I think the biggest mistake that most startups make in Web3 is that they don't have a story. They're trying to create a company kind of like Apple, but they don't realize that Apple really, really crafted a powerful brand. you know on how people wanted to be different from Windows because Windows is garbage. you know so So really, it's it's a lot of hard work on the storytelling, on the narrative, on the brand. And you know I think it's more than that, actually. If you really want people to stick with you,
01:15:44
Speaker
You have multiple pillars that you need to sell. Number one, you need to have some sort of public figure, right? So the people within the company, there's that story, right? So for example, Charles Hoskinson, he's an A plus for Cardano, right? he Like he is a real guru or Steve Jobs was a real guru, right? So already if you can have, you can take the people pillar and it doesn't need to be the entire team. It could be one, two, three polarizing figures, right? Like Elon. um And then the second one is the story of the mission, right where the company is headed. And the vision and the mission, the company is another story that you need to to sell. It's a second narrative. um And then the the third story is the technology or the token, if you have a token. right But the technology and the token, once again, what's the story, the compelling story that you have?
01:16:33
Speaker
And I think if you if you can have stories for all of these pillars, ah then you will create extreme loyalty. ah Why do people love Tesla? you know Because Elon is fucking awesome, ah because his cars are very cool. um so why i mean And the vision he has, oh my God, the vision, he wants to build you know spacecrafts, he wants to send us to the moon, right? So all of the pillars, there's a story for every single pillar. I mean, he created a car that farts, right? Have you guys seen the Tesla that farts? yeah Jesus Christ. My my brother, was he showed me that feature the other day, guys. so We were in Lausanne, which by the way, in know Swiss people in Lausanne, they're quite calm and quiet and introverted.
01:17:17
Speaker
And there was a teenage couple crossing the street holding each other's hands. And he said, Alex, do you want to laugh? And he looked at me with those big perverted eyes. And I'm like, what are you going to do? And this cute little couple, which probably had their first kiss last week, he he pushes one button and there's a massive fart sound that comes from the front of his Tesla car. And the guy just looked up and looked at the girl wondering if it was him or her who farted. And they they turned around and my brother is like waving. And they just cracked up. They were crying and crying of laughter. But I mean, that's crazy. These are once again, it's, you know, how can you imagine a guy in a board meeting saying, OK, guys, I have a revolutionary future. What is it? We're going to have a car that farts.
01:18:01
Speaker
Like, why do you know what I mean? That's a story in itself, right? and and But it also needs to fit because if a Volkswagen would do that or a BMW, it would look bad, right? Because that's it's that's not the audience. like But if you do it if if a Tesla owner does it, they're like, oh, hell yeah, this is fucking cool. like It's also know your audience in a sense, I guess, a little bit. when it comes to customer loyalty Yeah.
Starting a Business Journey: Recommended Reads
01:18:24
Speaker
but but's like a you that article yeah yeah um w fights no pras louis so But yeah I think that that's the conclusion, right? For all the techies and devs going out there, don't just build a product, really build a brand. That's the most important part. You need a story. If you don't have a story, what's going to happen is just like we see with all of these airdrops,
01:18:44
Speaker
that have you know over a million sometimes DAUs, daily active users. And as soon as the airdrop is gone, they have less than 100K. 90% of their users disappear overnight. And um that's the difference with Swissborg. We have a story. We love the community. We're constantly organizing events. We give our time and availability to them. And that that that works. right Our stickiness, by the way, is is one of the we have one of the most sticky apps in the world. We look at the stats. Out of 800,000 KYC users, we have 300,000 monthly active users. So that's like 30% to 40% monthly active users, which there's no company in crypto. Like Coinbase, when you look at the recent financial statements, 10%. Crypto dot.com is even lower. It's maybe around the 5%, even 3%.
01:19:32
Speaker
So the stickiness comes from a story, I guess, you know and um and really spending time with the community rather than the corporate side. So that's just my personal take. Interesting. So ah we're about to run out of time. So we're going to shimmy on down to the desert island. if Alex, if you were to start again, you had no bags, no clout, no black book, no friends in the industry, and no rich uncle, what would what would be the five things you would bring with you if you're going to start your business journey again? I would bring um the top books possible. So I would probably being bring all the books that can help me give as much wisdom as possible from you know invisible mentors. um And then other than that, you know, really invest in oneself, invest in understanding yourself, your strong points, your weaknesses, and then finding someone who can complete the other part of the puzzle.
01:20:24
Speaker
Can you give us two books that but you would cite? Can I give three? Oh yeah, of course. so And i i I do recommend this particularly in this order, not just one after the other. I consider this as the best way to be read as a sequence. um And I would start with a book, Thinking Grow Rich, with napoleon written by Napoleon Hill in the 1920s. And the reason why I like this book, by the way, the title is very misleading. It's not about becoming rich. he The rich here is more in terms of the mindset, the wealth and the the richness of your mind.
01:20:58
Speaker
And ah that book really focuses on taking over your consciousness your subconsciousness. And the subconscious part of your brain is the most powerful part of the brain. A lot of people like to think that they made decisions logically or rationally. It's not true. we We actually try to validate those decisions with logic from the new cortex. So thinking Grow Rich, number one, just for you to master your mind and and create the law of attraction and the right wavelengths so you connect with the right people and really weird shit happens. That's maybe for a future podcast. I can share some freaky stories with you guys. And then the second part, I would go for um
01:21:37
Speaker
how to win friends and influence people. Actually, before how to win friends and influence people, I would go for the seven habits of highly effective people with Stephen Covey. Why? Because once you control the mind, what are the principles and values that you can learn for yourself to go from being dependent to independent to interdependent as an effective leader? Right? So, brain, yourself, and your skill set, and then third, how to win friends and influence people so that you can use that with other people. So, more on the social psychology side and relationship side. So, that's why I like that order. You format your brain, ah then you add CPU ah to yourself, and then you can connect to the internet and and other potential devices.
01:22:23
Speaker
It's a perfect analogy.
01:22:27
Speaker
Fantastic.
Connecting with Alex and Swissborg
01:22:28
Speaker
Alex, I can only thank you for spending your time with us here on What3 podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure. is there ah Can you tell our audience where they can find you and how they can connect with you at Swissboard? Yeah, absolutely. So please feel free to check the swissborg dot.com website if you're interested in the crypto space. um we We're trying to build wealth management so to automate everything so that it is as easy and as passive as possible for people to be a part of this amazing journey. And then myself, you know, you can find me on Twitter, Alex underscore Fezell, F-A-Z-E-L.
01:23:01
Speaker
Fantastic. Awesome. i i really I'm really glad that you found some time in your busy schedule to to speak with us today. um I really enjoyed it. I think that ah Charlie and you did too. yeah um So again, thank you very much for being here. ah If you got this far into the episode, which I'm pretty sure a lot of people will, ah Thank you for listening or watching. ah Please like and subscribe. We love if you share our our our posts and our shorts and our mediums because we believe that the content that we bring out is very valuable for new time founders and serums, new to the web experience. Thank you very much. See you next week.