Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
WAWGTDWATF - The Future of Work & Organizational Design
59 Plays1 year ago
In the third episode of the podcast, guest Nola Simon, a hybrid remote futurist, discusses the evolving landscape of work and organizational design, prompted by her personal experiences with remote work that began long before the pandemic. She emphasizes the growing trend of flexible work arrangements and their benefits extending beyond parenting to accommodate caregiving and personal growth. She highlights current workplace trends, such as the demand for upskilling due to AI advancements, the rise of portfolio careers, and the need for employers to adapt to retain talent amid a backdrop of trust erosion, particularly in the tech industry. Looking ahead, the episode explores societal shifts like intergenerational housing and the importance of creating personalized, meaningful work environments that enhance overall well-being, underscoring a hopeful, people-centric approach for the future of work.
Keep up with Nola Simon on LinkedIn
Recommended
Transcript
The Genesis of Remote Work Interest
00:00:22
Speaker
Today, our guest is Nola Simon, a hybrid remote futurist. Nola, thanks so much for being here. Thank you so much, Rose. i'm I'm honored. Amazing. So just to start off, tell me what sparked your interest in remote work and future trends. Actually, it was purely selfish. When i was some my kids were young, I was working in Toronto. I lived north of the city, up and down in Georgina.
00:00:51
Speaker
Lake Simcoe. and um My commute was so intense that I was really only seeing my kids one hour a day. And that wasn't the type of parent I really wanted to be. And i was so I'm also an only child, and I don't really have a whole lot of family support. And neither does my husband, because unfortunately, his mother passed away in 2006. So before we had kids, well, my daughter was a year. But so that's really where I started advocating for hybrid. At that time, it was work from home.
00:01:22
Speaker
um because I just didn't have the capacity to be able to continue in the job working for the company that I did in the location that I did without actually having that flexibility. And so I advocated hard because my husband was self-employed, I was the stability, and I didn't necessarily have to want to move.
00:01:42
Speaker
um
00:01:45
Speaker
There were lots of different reasons, but that was among the the main reason that I needed to be able to see my kids more.
Pioneering Remote Work in 2011
00:01:54
Speaker
Fair. That that makes total sense. And now remote work or working from home is is very common. But when you began um this journey, it wasn't so common. Is that right? No, it was 2011. And so I only actually knew one other person.
00:02:13
Speaker
happen to be at the same daycare that I was and she worked for the same company and so I used her experience to advocate for my own. um People have often asked me like why did you think to and you either you even had the power to really kind of ask for what it was you were asking for and it was because of her because she had been with the company for so long. She was a single mother and she was at the top of the job band. She didn't have um you know room for raises or anything more. And so what they had said to her is like, come up with something that is valuable to you that we want to reward you with. And she asked to never have to go into the office. And they gave it to her, right? And I'm like, cool. Because you work for the same company I do. It's a different division, different department, different slightly work, but that exists. So therefore, I know I can do this, right?
00:03:01
Speaker
And that's where I try to bring voice to um hybrid remote and that need for flexibility um because I've lived it, right? And I know how essential it can be for parents. And it's not just single parents, it's not just parents like me that didn't necessarily have a whole lot of support. it It's beneficial for a lot of of different families, right? And it's not just parenting, it's caregiving in general, right? so if you have ah adult children you need to support or or elderly parents, right? There's a lot of of room there in terms of how that can benefit caregivers. that's That's a good point. And I think that there is, you know, also benefits to people who who don't have any of those responsibilities, right? if Even if you you don't have caregiving responsibilities, you don't have children, remote work is still so beneficial even when we start to think about, um you know, neurodivergence or, you know, um
00:03:56
Speaker
simply simply preference, right? I think that there's know there's opportunity. And so folks like yourself who maybe started to um advocate for remote work or work from home out of necessity really have created this opportunity for the rest of us to to enjoy um the same type of privilege.
00:04:18
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
The Universal Benefits of Remote Work
00:04:19
Speaker
and and i mean Obviously, the pandemic really kind of spearheaded that, but going back to people who don't necessarily have dependents or caregiving responsibilities, just because you don't have that in your life doesn't mean that you don't want to do other things. You might want to you know further your education. You might want to travel. You might want to volunteer. like There's all kinds of valid things that you might want to do.
00:04:42
Speaker
that flexibility and the ability to work in a different way allows you and affords you. So why not seize the opportunities that exist? Absolutely. And it sounds like it ah gives the opportunity for more living, more life, right? there's there it's I feel like it's not a part of the conversation enough that there is work, but work is not all that we do. It's not all that we're meant to do. There's so much more to life then than work. And so having these types of flexible arrangements, you know I think enables us to to experience living more, would you say?
00:05:24
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that because that's honestly the part that I'm excited about. And that's what really makes me optimistic. I think that there's a real possibility that the focus changes and people start standing up for the fact that they need to live as much as they need to work. right And that's where I think you're going to start seeing like portfolio careers even more so. like You're not necessarily going to work for one employer, and that's your only source of income.
00:05:52
Speaker
um you know, with all of the layoffs that's happened the last couple of years, it's kind of dicey whether that's a good idea to align yourself with just one employer and one income stream, right? And if you're building out portfolios like that, you can change around your life really easily depending on what it is you want to do.
00:06:10
Speaker
right So you you're building for the future in lots of ways too by having that flexibility.
Workplace Trends and Educational Needs
00:06:17
Speaker
Absolutely. um this is This is a perfect segue and into you know the the next question that I want to ask, which is, what are the most significant trends or signals that you're seeing in the workplace right now?
00:06:33
Speaker
I think the most important trends that we're seeing is is actually building off of that. People want to be, they know they need to upskill. They've they've seen all the things happening with AI. they you know There's a lot of concern that jobs are not going to be what they once were. um How do you pivot? How do you adjust? And there's a real demand for employers to help employees really stay current or or future focused. How do you build those skills and be prepared for what's coming in the future?
00:07:01
Speaker
um and I think that that's actually concurrent with what's happening in universities and and and education in general. It's like, how do you pivot to make sure that you're educating people for the future so that employers don't necessarily have to step up and and act as that bridge? right That's one thing that we're seeing right now. There's a lot of employers who are actually creating their own kind of like mini universities.
00:07:28
Speaker
to bridge the gap from what what exists between university and what they actually need and need workforce. And I think that's only going to grow unless unless we are able to pivot education, right? And so that's, I think, something that people misunderstand is it's not just what happens in the workplace. It's what happens everywhere because it all feeds into it. So it's what decisions are government making? What decisions are are educational institutions making? How are employers then picking that up and then running with that. and That's all multilayered, right? Absolutely. i There was another guest that raised that or was speaking to that, and I thought it was so interesting. I hadn't realized that it was growing in the way that it is in terms of employers providing education sometimes um you know in terms of
00:08:22
Speaker
an example like a Walmart providing, you know, ah having a Walmart University, so to speak, like, actually, you know, not just giving employees, um you know, an allocation of funds to continue their education, but actually providing the education themselves.
00:08:38
Speaker
which I find so interesting. Yeah, well, and I mean, employers have learned, right? like People are so busy. like There's so much going into your and on in their lives, right? So if you're if you're working eight hours a day, you have commute on top of that, and then you want to upskill as well. like How do you get all of that done, especially if you've got caregiving responsibilities? like It's really, really challenging. so employers are gradually learning that if they want to upskill the existing workforce that they have, they have to remove the friction. So how do you move with friction? You offer it within the context of what it is to work there. Right, right. And I guess a question that comes to mind is, what is the the incentive for an employer to provide education when an employee can leave at any time?
00:09:27
Speaker
Well, I think you're building out in in industry, you're building out society, right? So employers, a lot a lot of employers, especially the ones that I've worked for, have always perceived themselves not to be just like a corporate entity, but like a member of society, right? So you are, you of course you take that risk if you're educating somebody and then they move.
00:09:47
Speaker
That's one trend that I have noticed. I did actually interview somebody about alumni systems. You bring people in and they're considered alumni from the time they actually are employed, even past the time when they actually leave because alumni networks can actually be a wonderful referral source.
00:10:05
Speaker
right So if you maintain that relationship and you're invested in your employees and they are willing to refer people back to you and and act as as resources to you as the employer, even once they've left and they don't even work there anymore, that can be remarkably powerful.
00:10:22
Speaker
Right. So I think again, it's that mindset shift that employers have to tend to take. And it's like, you know, how do we, how do we treat our employees? Like, are you an employee just when you work here or are you an employee if you've ever worked here? Very interesting because that then looks at expanding the definition of employee and, or, you know, changes the way that we think about what an employee or who an employee is.
00:10:52
Speaker
Right. And honestly, a lot of employees are really short-sighted because and employees tend to be customers as well, right? So if you leave and you're no longer an employee and you are treated like you don't matter, do you really continue the customer relationship? Probably not. Right? This is where it's like, I think that there has to be like a shift, especially for like older industries. So like I'm from like financial services insurance banking.
00:11:20
Speaker
um There has to be a shift because if you're losing market share, you have a built-in market um within your employee base, right? Yes. And if you're treating people like they they matter, no matter what their employment status is, then that's a good thing.
00:11:40
Speaker
such an interesting perspective and I hadn't thought about it that way before. To dive a little bit deeper into that, what do you think the impact will be of some of these developments on on society? You know, speaking to employers providing education and and people, you know, perhaps pursuing portfolio careers more, demanding or wanting to work from home more,
00:12:09
Speaker
What do you think some of these impacts will have on society?
Future Living Arrangements and Remote Work
00:12:14
Speaker
So I think it's really going to impact um ah the way that we live um as well and like housing in particular, right? So like, especially these days ah in in the Toronto market, even up where I live, like the house that I'm in, I bought it for like $171,000 in 1998.
00:12:31
Speaker
And we were just assessed and just shy of a million. Incredible. Right? so But that's the thing. like My kids can't afford to even live here. Right. Right. Never mind Toronto. So I found it interesting um earlier, I think it was last year, they changed some of the the housing regulations in Ontario that if you have a big enough property, you can actually have three separate dwellings on that property. right So I think there's going to be a trend of like intergenerational housing so that you are building for the family. right And that could be really, really interesting because I think about it with my kids. right They may not want to stay all the time. right They might want to work, they might want to travel, they might want to you know go somewhere else for education, but at least they would have a home base.
00:13:20
Speaker
right So it might be like a temporary thing for them that would allow them flexibility. So if you've got employers that aren't, you don't want to have to uproot the whole family, right? Because I think if employers have that flexibility in terms of location, then intergenerational housing could be a solution that would empower people and really change that that way of life. And that all of a sudden, you you're negotiating your financial currency and your financial influence as a family unit, not each individual. right And that's intergenerational. right But that can make a ah real difference because if you're working in Toronto or you're working in Ottawa or wherever you happen to be working, right you don't want to have to necessarily move that family compound. right So this is going to influence the choices that people make.
00:14:17
Speaker
Um, and you actually see it with military. I actually happened to meet somebody at a wedding where she, um, she had been, uh, like in a symphony. She was a musician, right? But the pandemic really kind of like put paid to all of that. So she actually joined the military because militaries have symphonies or orchestras. Right. I did not know that. No, and I never really spent a lot of time Think about them. You think of marching bands, right? But you don't really think about who actually works there or how they're employed, right? So I found it fascinating talking to her. But for her, it was really interesting because the military at that time was giving her flexibility and where she had to leave. And then her husband didn't actually have to change his job, right? And it's it's a really interesting story because a lot of times you hear that story and it's the man who's in the military.
00:15:05
Speaker
right And it's just an accepted fact that the woman quits her job and uproots and like supports the family and travels. right But it can work the other way too. right And if you expand that to intergenerational housing, yes that could be really interesting as well too. So I think that we have to look at it in all of these different layers and understand that it's complex.
00:15:27
Speaker
Right. And we really have to like think about the the future that we want to see and and work towards it and take micro steps that build us towards that future. Absolutely. I'm very drawn to the idea of portfolio careers, especially because I believe I might fall into that bucket. yep What do you think about the impact that portfolio careers might have on society?
00:15:54
Speaker
I think that's really going to have to change the way that employers treat employees, right? Because if you've got flexibility and you've got ah options available to yourself, are you really going to tolerate toxic workplaces. but So I think that there's going to be a demand for better management, better leadership, better wellbeing within organizations. And you're already starting to see that you know there's there's an interest in diversity, edge equity, ah inclusion. you're You're starting to see you know that that wellness component. yep Is it lip service? Is it not? I don't know that we're there where there's really true commitment there.
00:16:35
Speaker
But I think that that really needs to kind of be developed because if people, tenure is really down. Like if you look at a lot of the research that's coming out, op tenure is people are not staying the way they stay. I mean, I stayed 17 years. That's unheard of these days. Yeah, it's totally unheard of, right? And i honestly, the the the numbers that I'm seeing is like people are staying like maybe two to four years somewhere in there.
00:17:02
Speaker
And so if that works for you, then that's great. But um if it doesn't, and you are concerned about the cost of turnover, because it can hiring new staff continually, that can be like a $20,000 investment, each staff member that you have to hire.
00:17:19
Speaker
So if you're interested in maintaining and in reducing those types of turnover stats, I think you have to treat people well. And you have to give them options. You have to invest in them. You have to be the upskilling. like You have to be a resource in a way that employers didn't have to be in the past.
00:17:40
Speaker
Yeah, I'm excited when I think about the changes that will have to be made, as you mentioned, in terms of being a resource, you know, treating employees better. And then I think about the, at least, you know, in in my industry in tech, the sweeping and deep layoffs that have been happening over the past couple of years.
Portfolio Careers and Trust Issues
00:18:04
Speaker
And it's frightening. It's, it's concerning, but I, I feel like with, we see a rise in things like portfolio careers, then employee, or at least the person has a better opportunity to, you know, mitigate some of the risk of being laid off or unexpected things like, you know, a deep cuts um occurring every one to two years.
00:18:28
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. That's right. and And once you actually consider yourself a portfolio careerist, your negotiation style, if you're considering working for a company is going to be completely different because now it's like, you're going to have to treat me well right off the bat, right? As soon as I walk in the door, because otherwise, why would I accept? What are you bringing to me? I know what I can, what skills I can bring to you, but what are you bringing to me? And that's where I think Trust has been eroded with the way that layoffs have been handled, particularly in tech. Everybody's just like losing the access to their email, and they don't get to say goodbye to people. That's not cool, right? I think that that trust has been broken in a way that it's hard to repair, right and you really have to kind of examine how you treat people.
00:19:22
Speaker
Absolutely. And I feel like it's, it's such a departure. If I even think about maybe five years ago, it was forbidden for you to have any type of work outside of your full-time nine to five, you know, your employer even learning or having a sniff of you doing any type of freelance or side work was grounds for termination almost.
00:19:44
Speaker
And just to see where we've come, it looks like this is truly a trend that is growing and is shaping you know what the future might look like. Yeah. And I can see that um like the employer that I worked for, um you had to declare if you had anything on the side, right? And so like I know people who did it because it was a business that was completely unrelated to insurance or or wealth management, right? Like a a friend who actually did my head shots, she'd had her photography business on the side, but she was doing like weddings and families and you know, completely unrelated. But um it was good for her because she eventually got laid off as well. And somewhere around the same time I did. And she was able to just start her photography business up full floors, because she already had that client base.
00:20:33
Speaker
It was really, really good for her. But I agree that employers have to consider like how restrictive they are in terms of those side hustles. Because you know I can understand that they don't want to risk you know competitors and you know all of that stuff and fueling information leaks or you know risking intellectual property, any of that stuff. But when it's completely something unrelated, I don't see the risk.
00:21:02
Speaker
Absolutely. so i mean we've I think we've started to touch on it, but what opportunities do you see for individuals and for businesses in this future landscape?
00:21:14
Speaker
I see an opportunity for more meaningful work. um I see a trend for
The Move Towards Job Personalization
00:21:20
Speaker
personalization. I've talked about this before, too. So we're used to ah like things being personalized to us. So like we customize Netflix. We customize playlists. We can select things that are going to work exactly for us. And I see that personalization happening at the workplace as well, too. One of my first podcasts was about job crafting.
00:21:42
Speaker
so how do you renegotiate your job description to do more of what it is you're super skilled at and less of the stuff that drains you, right? How do you how do you redesign your your job? And actually that that was just picked up and and published into the Globe and Mail. Somebody I had introduced to him published ah an article about red redefining the job description, what, three years later after I did my initial interview with him. So I see a real trend for personalization because people are used to
00:22:14
Speaker
customizing. right and That I think is really exciting because you're tapping into intrinsic motivation. so If you're tapping into intrinsic motivation, you're offering autonomy and flexibility in terms of how you work, then we have the ability to kind of leverage lived experience and bring in expertise and knowledge and really make work an exciting place to be. Yes, that's what makes me interested and excited about what could happen.
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds like there is a real dynamic shift. There's a shift in dynamics. There's a shift in perhaps even leverage as it relates to employees and employers. And I'm not sure that we have fully realized it yet, but I certainly see it coming and starting to see you know small indications of us moving towards that more and more.
00:23:11
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. And there was a study I read the other day and it's basically said that if you invest in the happiness of employees, the companies are nine times more profitable. Wow, right? Wow. And that's where it's like, that's exciting stuff because it's like, how can you how can you change how you operate so that you're invested in happiness? What does that look like if you're not focused on KPIs and your KPI is actually happiness? Yeah, there's ah an article in full transparency. I haven't read it, but the title alone strikes me as interesting and perhaps relevant. An article, I don't know if it was in New York Times and it's called
00:23:59
Speaker
Joy is not a strategy. But I imagine what we're seeing now is it might be. Yes. Tell me more about that. Yeah, joy is totally a strategy. Again, it goes back to like those those drivers of what makes meaningful work. So it's you know intrinsic motivation, doing the work that fuels you, that doesn't drain you. um and And if you're doing work that you feel has impact and that is meaningful,
00:24:29
Speaker
That leads to joy. So joy is a strategy. Right, right. If we take the perspective of a small business um or, you know, a family owned business, how does You know, some of these trends that we talked about, how does it affect them? How do, how do they prepare, you know, what changes do they need to make or what things do they need to be thinking about to be able to stay ahead of, you know, the curve ahead of what's coming and, and also, you know, be implementing strategies like joy. Yeah.
00:25:05
Speaker
So it really comes down to how you want to live, right? Like my husband has been doing home renovations since 2008, probably before because he was side hustling, right? So he is the definition of a small business because he, it's just him. And essentially he works to support our family, but he, he has had like some medical problems. Like we first met in physiotherapy, right? He had broken his leg and, um,
00:25:33
Speaker
you know So he's starting to actually actually experiencing problems with his knees related to that accident so long ago. right So he's considering like what his work looks like going forward. Does he actually want to go continuously into people's houses? Does he want to have to you know lift a lot of heavy things? and you know, up and down stairs and scaffolding and all of that stuff is, you know, hard on his body. So for him, he's considering like, what is going to be in demand that's going to be less um hard on his body.
00:26:07
Speaker
right So how does his work change as he ages? So again, he's he's still doing work that he's interested in, but it's less physically demanding. right so So far, he wants to move to the country and get a lawnmower and mow grass most of the day and build cabinets on the side. That's as far as we've gotten. That sounds lovely, actually. But if you if you kind of expand that like and you're you're centering how it is you'd want to live within the decisions that you make in terms of where you want to work,
00:26:37
Speaker
how you want to work, what do you want to do with the work? you're You're looking at your emotional needs, you're looking at your mental needs, you're looking at your financial needs, like what's competitive, what can you make money at? And what what legacy really are you building? So I think that that could be true for any small business. And honestly, it could be true for a lot of larger corporate businesses, right? so Yeah, it's it's an exciting time. It feels so exciting to think that we can reimagine the way that we work. It doesn't have to be like it was for our parents or or the generations before us. We can really you know step into a a new future, a an intentional future, a future that we have intentionally designed. Yeah.
00:27:29
Speaker
Yeah, my daughter just started at university. She's at York University for Social Work. And she's like, I don't know what this is going to look like. And I'm like, OK, but focus on the skills that you're developing, right? Because social work, even if you never go into social work, you're learning how to deal with people.
00:27:45
Speaker
You're learning about people. You're learning about and motivations there in their knees their one your You're focused really on that interpersonal aspect and learning about people. That's one of the best transferable skills that you've got, right? So that could transfer into many different careers, right? So we've been breaking it down in terms of of skills that she's got the potential to learn and what that looks like afterwards. I'm like, you don't even know what's gonna be in the job market.
00:28:14
Speaker
once you graduate. That is so true. I hadn't considered that because I think it's fair to say there was a time where if you were studying social work, you believed and most people would expect you to then become a social worker. yeah If you studied law, then you were going to become a lawyer and so on and so forth. yeah But what you're suggesting is You may or may not go into that exact field or into that exact role. And so there is you know more benefit in looking at the skills that you're learning so that you can be flexible and kind of seize opportunities as they come, so to speak.
00:28:54
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. That's right. And that's where it's like you, you know, you're learning at a certain point. Um, the, the, the most problematic aspect is, is determining whether the people that you're learning from have a mindset and worldview that's actually going to be useful five to 10 years from now. Cause that's the challenge that I see is, um, there are people who are still waiting for the world to go back to what it was. Oh my goodness. Right. You have really touched on something there. Yeah.
00:29:24
Speaker
and And you see it, honestly, even with like the the hybrid remote and the corporate planning is, you know, they're they're trying to get people back to the office and this whole return to office initiative. And then the compromise is really, well, you know, we'll let you work from home some days, but, you know, two or three years from now, we fully expect we'll be more office centric.
00:29:43
Speaker
Okay. So this means that that's truly what you believe that everybody should be back in the office, but you can't figure out how to get it done right now. So you're just going to kind of like delay the decision, but that's the mindset, right? Right. Personally, I don't think that's a future focused mindset. I think this is, we need to get back to what it was and we're just going to wait it out.
00:30:09
Speaker
I too don't imagine that that is realistic or the best way to go about it but. i I think it almost speaks to what we talked about before in terms of some of the dynamics changing around employees and employers and maybe employers um taking some time to catch up maybe i think they're. perhaps a little bit behind, still feeling like they have all the control to say, you must be in office. We're going back to office. And and it's it's my way or the highway where you know we've really changed. there is There's so many other options. There's, like we talked about, portfolio careers. There are other employers that have adopted a remote first or a remote you know workplace. And and so
00:30:49
Speaker
There are, like I said, there's there's there's just there's options, there's opportunities. And so it's going to be harder to kind of force people to into one behavior um or the other, if if that's just not what people want or that's not what is trending.
00:31:06
Speaker
yeah Well, a recent example was Dell, right? So they tried to encourage people to come back to the office and they basically said that if you don't come back to the office, you don't comply. You're not going to be eligible for promotions. You're not going to be eligible for bonuses and raises. And a good percentage of employees said, okay.
00:31:25
Speaker
We're just going to forego that and just not, and then they laid off 10,000 people, right? So what really was the strategy there? Was that truly the intentional along? They needed to lay off 10,000 people and they wanted to use the return to office initiative as an excuse. Right. Yes. we are We're certainly seeing that as well. What are you most optimistic about when it comes to the future?
00:31:51
Speaker
I think ah there's there's a real shift in terms of how people are being treated and how they demand to be treated really. And I think that that focusing on putting people at the center of things is really an encouraging trend because so often Like even from an accounting point of view, you think about it, you can, like the office the investment in the office, the investments in technology, that can be ah cost can be offset over years, sometimes even decades. um But if you invest in people, that has to be declared in the same year generally that you you make the investment. um People are now starting to understand that
00:32:33
Speaker
That's a better way to handle those investments because the investment in the office and the investment in the technology won't necessarily pay off. I think that what's optimistic is that people are starting to understand that they have to plan with intention and they have to center what's best for humanity. And I think we're at the beginning of that, but I see glimmers.
Where to Find Nola Simon's Work
00:32:59
Speaker
Yeah. i mean that's That is absolutely something to be optimistic about. Where can people stay up to date with your work, what you're doing, and you know projects that you have on the go? Where can we learn more about NOLA?
00:33:16
Speaker
So I do a lot of work on LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn just under Nova assignment. And I have a podcast called hybrid remote center of excellence. So you can find that on any podcast app. Uh, I personally like good pods because it's my favorite. We'll definitely link those resources, your LinkedIn and your podcasts and so that people can have access and stay up to date with what you're doing.
00:33:41
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And on my website, there's actually a media page. So I was just interviewed by McLean's magazine. So that's about career pivots, midlife. So that's going to be coming out soon. So I'll link it in there too, so you can find all my media appearances there too. so Amazing, amazing. Nola, thanks so much for your time. I so appreciate it. You're welcome, Rose. It was always as a pleasure.