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Bourbon Deep Dive with Jonathan Lumley-Sapanski of Lum's Cellars
19 Plays2 days ago
🔥 Episode Summary
In this flavorful episode, hosts Jason Shearer and Akram “AK” Khalis sit down with Jonathan Lumley-Sapanski, owner of Lum’s Cellars, to explore the intersection of whiskey, entrepreneurship, storytelling, and community.
Jonathan walks us through his journey from the high-paced restaurant grind to launching his own bottle shop in Maplewood, New Jersey. With an eye for craft, a respect for heritage, and a passion for educating consumers, Jonathan shares how his store curates private barrels, honors lesser-known distilleries, and builds customer trust one pour at a time.
🛠️ Topics Covered
- Jonathan’s hospitality and sales background—and what led him to open Lum’s Cellars
- Renovating a 100-year-old store and honoring the legacy of its previous owner
- How storytelling, heirloom grains, and transparency shape the new whiskey landscape
- The rise of MGP-sourced spirits and the cult appeal of brands like Found North and Penelope
- Balancing allocated bottles and consumer expectations in a specialty shop
- The role of education, trust, and flavor exploration in retail liquor sales
- How climate, glassware, and personal taste shape how we enjoy whiskey
- Building a retail brand rooted in transparency, community events, and deep knowledge
🥃 Featured Whiskeys & Spirits
- Penelope Rio — https://shop.penelopebourbon.com/products/rio
- Koval Four Grain — https://www.koval-distillery.com/newsite/whiskey/four-grain
📦 Retail & Brand Insights
- The reality of whiskey allocations and distributor relationships
- Why some $30 bottles outperform $80 ones in blind tastings
- The power of private barrel selections to differentiate a store
- How brands blend marketing, storytelling, and substance
- The “WebMD effect” of informed (and misinformed) whiskey shoppers
🍹 Cocktail Talk
- Jonathan’s go-to drink: The Boulevardier
- Why rye makes a cocktail sing—and how spice complements bitter
📅 Release Schedule
Episodes drop every other Monday, blending smart buildings, big spirits, and a little storytelling.
🎧 Who Should Listen?
- Whiskey lovers and curious newcomers
- Retail entrepreneurs in the food & beverage space
- Distillers, marketers, and small producers
- Anyone interested in the craft and culture behind the bottle
📣 Connect & Follow
- Lum Cellars on Instagram: @lumscellars
- Visit the shop: 1718 Springfield Ave, Maplewood, NJ 07960
- Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube
- Follow Jason, AK, and Jonathan for more insider conversations
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction at Loom Cellars
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome go to Distilled Buildings Podcast, where smart buildings are... Shaken, stirred, and data-driven. There we go. All right. I'm your host, Jason Shear. your host, AK. And we are here at Loom Cellars with... Jonathan Lumley-Sapanski. Jonathan Lumley. Awesome. So that's obviously where Cellars comes from. Awesome. So tell it tell us a little bit about the so place and the business.
Career Transition to Sales
00:00:41
Speaker
i am I guess it starts before the place. Yeah. Yeah. was in rest. I went to school for hospitality, thought restaurants were the answer. I was going to have so much fun working in restaurants. And I did. And that lifestyle wears on you. And I switched to sales after three years in New restaurants.
00:00:59
Speaker
In the city. In the city. So I was working 10, 9 AM till 2 AM, five days a week. Restaurant grind. Yeah. And then drinking too much in between. so it was exhaustion on the days off and then now you've recharged and come back for it.
00:01:14
Speaker
Um, saw the writing on the wall with my girlfriend at the time. Like if we want to go farther than this, I need to grow up and yeah and find something else. yeah Um, I think we all, we all get those like ultimatums or like so signs in life. Yeah.
00:01:29
Speaker
Let's make it a pivot.
Experience at Empire Merchants
00:01:30
Speaker
Yeah. So I, uh, I found empire merchants through fellow alumni and, um, ended up there, was there for three and a half years working in their wine on premise division. Yep.
00:01:44
Speaker
And they added Sazerac portfolio during my time there, which really opened my eyes to spirits and all of those, the other avenues that exist in alcohol.
00:01:55
Speaker
um left there to go work for Deutsch. Soon after I came on we acquired Redemption which really opened my eyes. We had a fantastic education team to sourced whiskeys and MGP which I realize now how large MGP is at that point. I was like oh it's a big whiskey producer but yeah realize now just how many ryes on shelves come out of that distillery is pretty impressive. It's also interesting to me, like it's not a tourist destination.
00:02:24
Speaker
Like people will bad mouth MGP, but like they'll go to these other distilleries, which are not even active distilleries. And it's like, Oh, this is shiny red paint and like fresh yeah whitewash. And like, Oh, it's so beautiful visiting your distilleries. Like that's not the distillery. Like you're, you're visiting like a a showroom to drink. Tasting room. tapper Exactly.
Opening a Craft Brand Store
00:02:44
Speaker
Um, so in, post 20 where I was, I was working on premise in New York through COVID challenges, uh, drove me to like what's next.
00:02:56
Speaker
Um, and I had this idea for a long time, go out on my own and, and do a store that focuses more on smaller brands, focuses on craft and finding interesting things.
00:03:08
Speaker
Um, found the space in, October of 21, finally closed 10 months later, operated that store. That was like a cigarette outlet, basically for like six months and closed in, January and, uh, renovated to the store that it is now. Awesome. Different location, same location, just got, and it was, yeah. And it was it was really cool. There was,
00:03:37
Speaker
we've all purchased homes and we look at these homes, like what was the, what was that generation thinking? Like they covered the hardwood floors in, in three quarter inch plywood. Thank God protect the hardwood floors that are 90 plus years old now.
00:03:50
Speaker
Um, So we have the original floors, it's the original 10 ceilings that were covered in in drop ceilings. so That's pretty cool. I mean, we all remember the the remotes were they covered in plastic and that gives the integrity of the room. I guess that's what they did here. Yeah, exactly. Not knowingly. They did that totally on purpose. They knew like 30 years later, like some guy was going to like, like Yeah, a bill of liquor. We want somebody in 50 years to return this back to 100 years
Store History and Mrs. Lee
00:04:17
Speaker
ago.
00:04:17
Speaker
we We will take a couple of videos of the stores. The audience, when they watch it, they get to see like duma how you actually changed it. I wish I had previous pictures. Maybe you probably heard it.
00:04:29
Speaker
Yes. I got some video content that's pretty funny. yeah On days when the lottery got big, the line would be like 25 people long. Cause they all thought Mrs. Lee, she's a single operator. She was here 35 years, 80.
00:04:42
Speaker
She sold me in the business and she was 83. yeah So she was just too old for it. um But they all thought she was good luck. They all came in with their scratch offs. Like there was, there was literally pads in the floor where people would step up and do their scratch offs. And wore through asbestos tiles. Like asbestos is like.
00:05:01
Speaker
Durable. Yeah. And there's just like this perfect feet mark. And there was two layers of that. So. Wow. Yeah. Some history there. Some history. Everyone loves Mrs. Lee. People still will walk and be like, am I in the, I used to come here. Did this used to be somewhere else? That's like my favorite question. I'm like, no, this was never anywhere else. Cool. Yeah.
00:05:22
Speaker
Um, and so like what now I'm in this business of like trying to, how do I differentiate myself and find
Whiskey Production and Transparency
00:05:31
Speaker
interesting things? And there are, I mentioned MGP before there are really good MGP products and there are really good.
00:05:38
Speaker
Like I I've had my eyes reopened to brands that I was jaded by in the past, like makers mark, went through this run of like the maker's mark Manhattan. And I was like, what every entry level finance bro in the city was makers, Mark Manhattan makers, Mark Manhattan. which is just Branding. I mean, yeah, they really good branding, but like, I wouldn't, I would never order makers market after that, after whatever TV show yeah became famous for.
00:06:09
Speaker
and, and doing a private barrel of makers, like it opened my eyes like, how good is that, that 30, $35 bottle of makers on shelves? Like it's really good whiskey. And now there's a reason it's so popular because it's good. It's not just like a priced well. Yeah, it's good. It's priced well and it's it's consistent. And I think that that's what's, that's, what's always kind of made whether it's makers or decking whatever, like those bottles, like You can get it here, there, now, 10 years from now, it's going to taste more or less the same.
00:06:38
Speaker
I was thinking about Jack Daniels yesterday. When was the last time I had Jack daniel Daniels? I don't know, but I should probably revisit Jack Daniels. But there's companies out there who are not distilleries sourcing whiskey.
00:06:53
Speaker
And like Found North has... a huge following now and this cult following and like their tracking of what's in the barrel and their flow of information to consumers is what is making people like go nuts for it. And really you look at other bottles.
00:07:10
Speaker
I'm not going to call anybody on the table out, but like you look at other bottles and there's, there's no one for me that must be four years old or something, but like they have exactly how old everything is. If you scan the QR code, it's like exact barrel age where it's from.
00:07:24
Speaker
Almost like supply chain tracking. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, um, I read an article this morning yesterday about how, like, are you, it's the whiskey you're drinking real. Like how accurate is the tracking? And these guys are buying and producing really cool stuff and keeping track of it in a way that like, where does, where does technology meet spirits? And that can go. Either way. Yeah. Yeah.
Specialty Grains in Distilling
00:07:48
Speaker
That's cool.
00:07:48
Speaker
And it goes to, to like the agriculture, like at at the core of this, it's all, it's all cereal grains and like the, we have brands that are focused on heirloom grains and like how to, how can you produce those at a level that produces good spirits, but also is economical enough for the farmer. So engaging with technology and engaging with, um, farmers, like, are you, are they willing to change the way that they farm, um, to produce grains or like, are they willing to grow an heirloom crop that'll,
00:08:18
Speaker
produce far less that a guarantee that they'll get paid 50% more. Are distilleries willing to pay 50% more for grains? Um, is that a new, is that a new trend in distilling is specialty and heirloom grains. I know that yeah we also see like on the, on the aging side of, you know, aging in sherry casks or like wine barrels or whatever.
00:08:42
Speaker
So like there's, there's an equal amount of like innovation on the on the the base grain side. I think that there's small distributors or or small producers rather, distilleries are are trying to put their stamp on on their products and what differentiates them. So like, uh, widow Jane has like widow Jane 10, uh, is what everybody sort of knows that distillery for. They have the lucky 13, but they just came out with baby Jane, which is all heirloom grains. And it's like, how can we produce a whiskey? That's, uh, there's no age statement on it, but like what sets it apart is like, Oh, this corn is, has a different flavor profile. Um,
00:09:27
Speaker
Johnny Redcorn is another one that has like, that's all heirloom grains that went basically extinct. And like, they're just doing that. i don't I don't know if it's like, are they putting the cart in front of the horse or like what what's driving that? Is it like, are people really eager? Maybe it's the push towards rye and like expanding people's palates towards of their grains. yeah sure um Rye was the original spirit of the US.
00:09:51
Speaker
It's like what all the classic cocktails are made with. and yeah corn subsidies coming out of prohibition of lettuce, lettuce to bourbon. I mean, there's, there's a reason why we have, burn we don't really think about, but.
00:10:03
Speaker
Now, do you find yourself doing a lot of education to the clients that come in and yeah, it's, um, the more that I know, I realized like the less I know. And as i was a consumer, not all that long ago, um,
00:10:20
Speaker
People just don't know. And do you drink what you like? And like, there's the Jack Daniels or the Jim Beam consumer. Like that's what they've always drank. And we have those on our shelf, but many people are like, well, whiskey. No, I don't like whiskey. like bourbon. it's like, well, butr all all bourbon is whiskey. yeah And then getting people to like have that aha moment of like, I can try a rye. And there was a, there was a lot of really bad cheap rye produced in this country for a lot of years. And like people like, even my mom is like, no, no, no rye whiskey. no I'm like,
00:10:49
Speaker
try this, try this. Oh, that's really good. That's not rye. Yeah. Like it's not, and I mean, remember buying rye cause it was the cheapest when 21.
00:11:03
Speaker
That's 16 bucks a fifth. Like, yeah, that's what I'm going to Um, so like, yeah, people are, people are expanding their palates and, and, We are a store different from many other stores where where we know producers or we know their specialty things on the shelves. Doesn't necessarily mean it's more expensive, but like we want to educate producers or we want to educate consumers.
Building Customer Trust
00:11:25
Speaker
We want to get people to try new things. and ideally not spend more money, but.
00:11:32
Speaker
And is it more on like the tasting or is it just a virtual, like I know coming here, i ah to your point, I just knew exactly what I wanted all the time. And this is the new, and you're like, just try this. Like, this is delicious.
00:11:44
Speaker
Yeah. And it's, it's, it's once you get somebody to trust you as like a store owner, and that can be in, in, you know pe like you know, you go to your bakery, your waitress is like, you got to try the special. Like i I would never order tuna. I'm like, no, you gotta try it. It's the same here where it's like you get, you gain somebody's trust.
00:12:04
Speaker
yeah it's It's the same in in sales of anything. Like once you get their trust, you can get them to try other things. And maybe you don't, maybe your success rate is not a hundred, but like if you're selling them a bottle a week, they're more willing to like, okay, that was a flop, but yeah you know, the following week they'll come back and be like, and if somebody's, it's like a a consumer,
00:12:26
Speaker
advice, like go to somebody, you try find somebody that is willing to talk to you about what's on their shelves and what makes them tick. And we listened to the people who come in the store and they're like, Oh, I want whatever we hear. And then you, we get the feedback.
00:12:42
Speaker
And like, okay, and they don't like whatever. We want a drier whiskey. We want more sweetness. We want more structure, something in wine. you know, it's, we listen to what they say and and try to steer them.
00:12:54
Speaker
Somewhere that yeah fits their, yeah. i but I remember like you talking to me about Rio and or or just like a specific bourbon. And um I'm thinking in my head, sure, I'm sure it's going to be great, but let me try it and then all of a sudden it took a lot.
00:13:07
Speaker
from you Obviously you have to do a lot of work to go, not only that he likes this, he likes that, he wants this specific bourbon, which one would actually fit yeah be be okay.
00:13:17
Speaker
Which I think it's... It's super cool. and And it's great to see that Rye is making a comeback. i I discovered Rye through... brewing so i brewed beer for 10 years like in my i like my 30s and i always loved using rye as a base grain that had like spiciness to it like something different and when i got turned on to bourbon and rotten like i tried like my first like good rye i was like oh yeah that that reminds me of like chomping on that grain, and right? And the spiciness that comes out of raw.
00:13:50
Speaker
I had an educator, Joe Riggs, who worked for Redemption forever, and he's like... think about the bread that comes out of these things. Like don't think about the whiskey, like rye bread.
00:14:01
Speaker
You think about like that New York deli, whatever pastrami on rye, like that's a spicy sandwich. Like what do you, cornbread is the other one. Like that, those flavor profiles come through, i' not they're not as pronounced as like a slice of w rye bread, but like what do what are you trying to taste and like getting consumers too to like taste differently rather than just like pouring their whiskey in Coke. um Speaking of that, which one are we trying?
00:14:27
Speaker
What do you want to try? You love Rio. You've had Let's try something interesting. Trusted advisor. I'm going to hate this whiskey. Coval.
00:14:39
Speaker
There might be another emphasis of that word. um They were the first distillery to open in Chicago since Prohibition. Husband and wife team.
00:14:50
Speaker
Not alcohol in the background. like They're might get this wrong, but at least one of them is a doctor. Science is their background and they saw an opening. I mean, people in the Midwest certainly drink and they produce some super limited stuff. And then this is their foreground and it's approachable.
00:15:10
Speaker
It's rounded. 94 proof. Yeah. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for coming guys. and Thanks for having us. Yeah, there's um there's a a store in my neighborhood in Jackson that carries a bunch of coal they'll go up to Chicago and do, what what's the term, like a private barrel, like a private label type type of a thing. yeah So it's all it's always good to see stores going to distilleries and doing you know private label or bottle you know barrel selection type things. We do a lot with private barrels. Yeah. um
00:15:41
Speaker
I think it sort of puts us on the map with the whiskey consumer. Like you can't taste this anywhere else. No. And I mean, just even just once again, and kind of back to the branding, like when you see a bottle of Penelope and has selected by looms on it, like it shows that you're not just selling whatever people are buying. Like you are, you're bringing things in that you trust and that you like yeah to get to your consumers.
00:16:06
Speaker
Getting those in people's hands and like having them love them is, so rewarding. I did a party this last weekend and we had six bottles on the table. Two of them were private barrels and I was not picking worse whiskeys.
00:16:20
Speaker
Those ended up being two favorite and they were like middle or lower in the price tier of the six whiskeys. So it's, uh, it's also a super fun process. Penelope was founded in New Jersey. So and interesting part of our like ethos is to like,
00:16:37
Speaker
pick up local businesses. And that's really tough in the wine and spirits sphere. Cause like, there's not, it's a lot of capital to build a distillery. There's not much, there's not a lot of great wine. There is some good wine being produced in New Jersey.
00:16:50
Speaker
And when I found out these guys were in Roselle, uh, was like, yeah, let's get on their private barrel. is really tough to get in. and I'm driving there. Roselle, it's not far from you. Yeah. I like driving past the high school football field where we're going. And they're like, you're not going to know. There's like a, and so I'm like, there's no way this is the address. It's like a old warehouse seat. What?
00:17:14
Speaker
And, um, they had two shipping containers and like an old processing building. And that's where they were putting out all of their whiskey at that point. The following week they sold to MGP and we bought Penelope.
00:17:28
Speaker
And so we have, either the last or one of the last bottles that still says Roselle on the back of it. Oh, cool. That is cool. So in that, in the acquisition, we talked a little bit about MGP, like is Penelope still doing all their own distilling or is there blending?
Penelope's Acquisition by MGP
00:17:44
Speaker
Like how does that, how does that work? They were always sourcing from MGP, which is good in terms of consistency of products.
00:17:53
Speaker
Now they're still on as advise many of the, these acquisitions, like, you know It doesn't matter what the spirit is, whiskey or not. like People build this brand to sell it, like any business. any business yeah um
00:18:08
Speaker
What I think is cool about this is like Penelope sourced all of their whiskey from MGP. They had a very strong partnership. They were never hiding that they were from MGP, which some brands did and got burned by.
00:18:18
Speaker
um They then signed a contract to stay on. as like a brand ambassador, it's two guys who are from Basking Ridge. Um, and so there's still a very large part of it. I think we're now 18 months maybe removed from that sale. Um, so they're still there for another four years. Um, they have carried on like Rio was something that had launched just before that super limited.
00:18:43
Speaker
Um, but Penelope, sorry, MGP has the power to buy so many cool things. That's cool. and their access to old barrels that they're not selling to startup brands. yep um So the whiskey, like their white label is their base that has gotten older. It has gotten less expensive.
00:19:07
Speaker
That's good for but everyone. They've released a weeded whiskey, which is like their new tier right above the white. And then they keep with this Cooper series, they're releasing limited stuff. They're doing single barrel ah releases. They did a estate tier now, which is cool to get old MGP juice, which is some of my favorite whiskey I've ever had.
00:19:32
Speaker
The like seven to 11 year stuff that comes out of MGP, like the spiciness of the rye sort of backs off and you're left with more of the like toffees and caramel flavors, which is delicious, but Cooper stuff is cool because it, it allows you to taste these.
00:19:49
Speaker
And that's in like the Cooper series, like they're using like old barrels or those are. and Yeah. Ambarana casks, which are the flavor profile in this is Ambarana.
00:20:02
Speaker
That is the yeah cinnamon toast crunch. Yeah. Is how i describe yeah um is that And I, this was the first, out of that barrel that I had ever had.
00:20:14
Speaker
And some, there's a few other ones in market and somebody brought it in and the minute I was like, Oh, I know that. Immediately. was like, I know what that barrel is. So they, they did this, they did a Tokai cask, which is cool.
00:20:27
Speaker
Got less, you know, people were less interested in it, which is funny to me. Cause like a nine year Hungarian sweet wine finished whiskey is like really cool to me. Um, dark color. Yeah.
00:20:41
Speaker
Which was awesome. Um, I have like maybe an inch of that left and there like you should try this. Cause I want to try it. You should try it. I want to try it. Um, what else have they done? They did a rose cask,
00:20:56
Speaker
It's fine. That's a less expensive yeah offering. ah Havana, which is a new Cuban cask. Like rum cask? Rum cask and something else is in that one. There's like a maple cask finished. So it has like this little heavy.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah. Sweet backbone. um What else that Cooper series? I'm at a loss. Oh, the Valencia. The Valencia orange was sick. now It's fantastic.
00:21:29
Speaker
It's cool to see them using casks to get different for flavor profiles because there's also like, guess like also a trend to like flavor bourbons or whiskeys.
00:21:41
Speaker
And this seems like a little more, don't like creative and authentic versus putting a bunch artificial flavors and in ah and a spirit. Yeah, and you would appreciate this.
Roselle, NJ's Historical Significance
00:21:51
Speaker
So the distillery location, I used to live in the same town.
00:21:54
Speaker
That town is where the first light bulb ever got lit in America. Really? Thomas Edison's factory was in Roselle, New Jersey. Very cool. proximity to what we do from like a lighting point yeah here and now we have Lutron yep yes yes we cheers to not having Lutron not having Lutron this is the Lutron takeout podcast right that's it we said it here oh
00:22:25
Speaker
want to the real? Yeah. it's true I've not had that. I had just, um, I found a bottle of the toasted, which is pretty good. Rye or bourbon? The rye.
00:22:35
Speaker
Ryes. That was a a highly sought after. Yep. Yep. Um, Oh man, I can smell that without even putting it up to my nose. It's like candy. Yeah.
00:22:46
Speaker
And it's, Oh wow. It's delicious. Yeah. I thought it was, It's not a knock on Penelope. I thought that it was something that they were doing to the whist. Like they must be. Putting it like an artificial, like a sweetener, like something. We're toasting this with something that's going to give the cinnamon.
00:23:03
Speaker
That's all from the barrels. All from the barrel. Because that other barrel we tasted, I was like, bam. i I knew it before even looked at the label. yeah There's the finish. Yep. And in like that is a, I saw like on their website, like they're like Rio's back. So is it like a seasonal that they do? Like it's not available year round. The first release was tiny.
00:23:22
Speaker
Um, the second subsequent releases have gotten larger and they're trying to make it a year round thing, which is, they've also changed some of the finishes. So, um, some of it was just Ambarana. Some of it is honey and Ambarana. Um,
00:23:42
Speaker
they're trying to make it year round thing. Yeah. Which means price is coming down. Oh yeah. Yeah. Which is good for everyone. That's yeah. Like initially it was like, Oh, you get a stores would be getting a bottle. You'd see it on shelves at like,
00:23:56
Speaker
two to 300, you'd see it on secondary markets at three to 500. And like, I tasted it, it's delicious. Like, not if I saw it for like 450 bucks on whatever, I'm like, ah, it's not $500, sorry.
00:24:11
Speaker
And given obviously you have the business side, so you're you know in the business of being in like the education, getting like selected brand, et cetera. How do you get to manage the allocation of product versus what you expect without obviously still staying biased?
00:24:26
Speaker
Um, allocations are an interesting thing. So on the acquisition side, it's a constant like push and pull with distributors. And, um,
00:24:41
Speaker
I would say the most highly allocated whiskey are probably the BTAC Buffalo trace antique collection. Those you get almost none of, and it's really tough as a retailer.
00:24:53
Speaker
to bring in the other products to get more of those allocations. Like we're, we're bottle shop. I don't know how many people view us or say that, but like we're we're more specialty. So like Sazerac also sells brands like 99. Like that's a shooter brand. Like that's that's what you drink on spring break. at two am Exactly. i and You're not of age. Like that's what that brand is like.
00:25:18
Speaker
I'm going to no longer drink this when I graduate college. Um, um And many allocations are tied to the sales of their total portfolio. And we just can't push the volume to get those things. So that's like one side of the allocation thing. The other thing is like when I get two bottles of Rio, like how do allocate that to consumers? It's like the really tough thing. And what goes on our website? What doesn't go on our website? What goes on Instagram? What doesn't go on Instagram? Is it good to like put it on Instagram and immediately have it sold out? Or many stores like- Wait a text to be like, can have that bottle again?
00:25:52
Speaker
many stores will put stuff on their website, post about it, let people order it and then cancel the orders just to get people into their stores. And so you, you know, you search Papi Van Winkle 15, it'll be at like 10 stores within a 10 mile radius, but like not actually, so i know I know having worked in the distributor and the supplier sphere, like those bottles don't exist.
00:26:15
Speaker
and So,
00:26:18
Speaker
a dirty business wheel. no There's, there's things that every business, every business has a little like, I don't remember even like, you know, the blue label when I wanted it at one point and I just like, Hey Jonathan, can, can I get this bottle? It's like, yeah. I'm like, no one else had this.
00:26:33
Speaker
The New York. Yeah. Yeah. But like McAllen too, like McAllen did their city release. Uh, and those were like impossible. And so it's, it's a constant like building relationships with your distributor. Yep.
00:26:48
Speaker
And I, I manage those relationships much differently than, um, other retailers do where it's like demand, demand, demand.
Distributor Relationship Management
00:26:57
Speaker
And it's, it's a give and take, but also I've been on their side. So like, I know what they're going through. So like, yeah I can't sell a hundred cases of 99 bananas. I know I can't as a business, but when they're like, i gotta sell the Sauvignon Blanc, I'm like,
00:27:12
Speaker
That's a good product. and like we can yeah We can work on the Sauvignon Blanc so that I might be able to find myself a bottle of something come, you know, allocation seasons, allocation releases.
00:27:24
Speaker
I feel like that's what's unique about obviously you and the store is you bring that background. it's like Not every retailer that owns a shop or retail store. They don't come from that background. They just know how to operate the business, maintain you know profitability and just move move the numbers. Yes.
00:27:39
Speaker
And you're like, I know exactly that you want. yeah So it's a give and take. Give and take. it's And it's tough to be a balance of that too. Where like, this is a business. Like I left my corporate job to do this. Yeah, I'm sorry for profit. Yeah. um And that's like back to those allocated things. like what what do you charge somebody for a bottle you're one of a year? I had this conversation with a friend who runs a restaurant in the city. It's like, what you charge for Pappy Van Winkle 15? Do you get one bottle of that?
00:28:07
Speaker
What's your poor price? Yeah. Like, and how do i well, I want to be friendly with customers who are buying a lot. If somebody is going to pay 1500 bucks for it.
00:28:19
Speaker
The supply and the demand. Yeah. And like yeah you look online and prices are, expensive. Is it worth $1,200? I don't know, but somebody is going to pay $1,200 for that every year. yeah So, uh, it's, it's a delicate balance of like many of the allocated items I would say are negotiable. And I think they're negotiable in every store. Like if you walk in and you see plans at $200 on a shelf, push back.
00:28:45
Speaker
yeah yeah and What's it actually? that's for their scene Yeah. What can we,
00:28:51
Speaker
what can we Whatever, if you're if you're buying ah a bottle of regular makers, if you're buying a bottle of Jack Daniels, like there there should be ah so give and take in those things. Do you think that the internet and kind of back to technology, do you think that that makes a more and informed consumer like when they come into the store?
00:29:12
Speaker
It's um almost like the WebMD effect, right? Yeah. Of like self-diagnosis and then you go to the doctor and tell them what's wrong. Like, do you see the same thing for consumers coming in or are they looking to you as an expert or a little bit of both?
00:29:24
Speaker
A little bit of both. There's, I think there's a plus side in like when you Google something, 10 stores will show up with whatever, yeah an LLPO. Yep.
00:29:37
Speaker
The real whiskey nerds get into spirit, aficionados, whatever we're calling that, that sect of people will be in the Reddit group. They'll be in six Facebook groups. They'll be in the local one. They'll be in the national one. They'll be in the bottle trade one.
00:29:51
Speaker
I'm in all of those too. yeah So you can see what they're seeing. Yeah. Like what's the value of a Eagle rare 17. And then you see this wide array and like, I'll give you some like regional visibility. Yeah. The regional thing yeah is great. Cause like,
00:30:10
Speaker
Ohio, it's a control state for liquor. So like everything is sold at and MSRP. yeah And so you have these people like, Oh, in Columbus, that's a 39 99 bottle. And I'm like, yeah, but when I lived in New York, that was a $400 bottle. yeah But I'm not flying to Columbus to try and find the bottles there. yeah Um,
00:30:28
Speaker
So it's a give and a take. It's nice that when people are in and they're like, oh, Penelope Rio, and they Google it, because we do it too when we're pricing. How ridiculous is it? Not with Rio, but some stuff that's like, this is a $60 bottle that somebody is selling for $200, $300. $200.
00:30:43
Speaker
two three hundred dollars like We're not trying to gouge people. And like, I want people to walk in and see Valencia at $69 on the shelf be like, oh, and that builds to the- It's a good value. Yeah. It builds to the credibility and people willing to trust you when you're like, you should buy this at this price.
00:31:01
Speaker
But balancing out the flow of that stuff is- ah coming in and going out. You want to have a balanced flow and not look like a museum. yeah Do you see yourself making this a franchise or like another location maybe?
00:31:18
Speaker
It's the goal. and Okay. um It's the regionality in... It's true in any... and I grew up in Pennsylvania and like the town that I grew up in versus the town eight miles away, totally different. I'm like...
00:31:32
Speaker
If I were to open a liquor store in one, I would be selling 99 flavors. In the next door in town, I'd be selling maybe more wine. yeah um But in New Jersey, we talk about Springfield Avenue. like One end is Irvington, the other end is Vauxhall or Maplewood in the middle.
00:31:46
Speaker
like What sells in those two areas is totally different than we'll sell here. If I was even three blocks farther in that direction, i would sell a totally different line then yeah um so to answer the question like where can i do something similar to this i think it's got to be in a town that is new york commuter focused um and you see there's there's similar stores in montclair there's similar stores in morristown um who are who are producer focused more than they're like i'm gonna sell
00:32:23
Speaker
whatever brand so that I can get an allocation of something else. Um, but then you see stuff like, uh, Jersey city by right. But that store is, it's really fun to walk that store. Cause it's like Walmart except it's liquor. yeah The store is cool. So, uh, yeah, I would say there's, so there's some in the future is just finding the right balance of where they are,
00:32:46
Speaker
I live in Morristown. I'd rather not drive like 90 minutes to somewhere. So the Morris Essex line is, is a good feeder. And if you look at other regional chains in New Jersey, Gary's did that where they're in those towns.
00:33:01
Speaker
Makes sense. You know, people, people make money in New York. When they come home, they're willing to, well, I saw that in a store in New York, saw that on a menu in New York. Like, they're willing to spend for it versus somebody who is not on a train line is just locally commuting. Yep.
00:33:17
Speaker
Bedroom communities. Yep. Cool. One of the, like one thing aka and I were talking about on the train over here was the age old ice versus no ice debate as far as like service.
00:33:32
Speaker
What is your take on that? And I also had the experience of like a Scotland trip. So got to understand like how they drink whiskey there. you know, neat with water. is it do you believe it's just like personal preference or personal preference? I like cold liquid.
00:33:51
Speaker
Yep. That's like my yeah issue. Like all the same page. We'll all agree. I've never gotten by people. like Oh, just had a couple of drops of water. I'm like, that does nothing for me.
00:34:04
Speaker
And I'm not, I'm not downplaying that at all because some of the best whiskey minds in the world will talk about adding a few drops of water, but I'm like, okay, it just went from being 94 proof to 90 proof. Yeah.
00:34:15
Speaker
yeah Just takes the heat off or whatever whatever they claim. That's the philosophy in Scotland is like no ice because, you know, a cold drink numbs the palate and you lose some of the profile of of a whiskey. But I'm with you. Like, I just, I like cold things. um I live in the South, so like it's always hot. So like you want, you want something, you want something cold and quaffable. And, but I do like the,
00:34:39
Speaker
the big rock, like not small cubes. yeah You don't get as much dilution, but there's also the rocks, the stones that you can freeze. I think those are kind of cool. Uh, I don't have them. I've gifted them yeah in the past to people. Yeah.
00:34:53
Speaker
I carry them. I can sell them. Yeah. Um, know. I like cold liquid. I, when I'm at home, it's ice.
00:35:05
Speaker
Yep. I would say 75% the time greener. Yep. Yep. ye yeah thing. Um, now even on wine? No, no. That's funny. Like wine though. I'm, I still want it below roof.
00:35:19
Speaker
The thought in wine is like cellar temperature 56, 58 degrees. So like fun, the
Whiskey Consumption Preferences
00:35:24
Speaker
seller, but yeah, uh, or for, so you know, it's the heater running downstairs this time of year. Um, so yeah, still cooler white wine this time of year through, through summer,
00:35:38
Speaker
Yeah. so It's great. Uh, yeah. But yes, the, the debate of how to, how to consume your whiskey to me is like, however you want it it is right. And it's right for you. And and I've seen many people who are aficionados to novice, like how many novices are drinking just straight ah liquor first, you know, these aficionados who you're at the bar and it's like a big cube rocks,
00:36:08
Speaker
And there can be like, you know, with like a big cube, know, with a spirit, the way that it tastes the beginning versus the end, whenever it gets cooler, gets a little bit more diluted. can kind of like the flavor profile can change a little bit and not just watered down, but yeah, change over time. Yeah. And people also talk about like putting something in the glass and letting it open up. And for me, I probably don't drink quickly enough that most of my bottles have been opening in a glass for a long time. So I'm always like,
00:36:36
Speaker
is it changing in my glass? It might be changing. Am I just getting progressively more and more intoxicated? Yeah. It's probably true too. Um, yeah, it's how you consume is, um,
00:36:50
Speaker
It's a funny thing. It is. And people's strong opinions about how you are doing it wrong. Some people, yeah, like it's almost religious sometimes around. Yeah. And I'm like, you're not supposed to put that ice in there. Yeah. Well, we can't be friends anymore. I mean, if you're putting Coke in something, I'd be like, that's a hundred dollar bottle of whiskey. Like, let's find you something less expensive you're going to like as much. Yeah.
00:37:14
Speaker
Uh, and you know, back to being in the store, like how do you consume your whiskey? What do you think is a big question. It's like somebody comes, Oh, I'm looking for a gift. what What do they drink?
00:37:25
Speaker
They usually give a national brand and how do they drink it? Like, Oh, he loves mint juleps. And you're like, okay, that's different than somebody who's like with ginger beer with this. Yeah.
00:37:38
Speaker
Yeah. For anybody that had, and listening and gift from me, it's all Jonathan. I'm just going, I'm like, here's the profile, this is what I think they like, or here's their perception of what I think they like. Are you in in 20 minutes? I'll be there.
00:37:56
Speaker
oh it's ah It's fun, though. like those are We taste everything in the store, which is also not true of many egg most other stores. like Have you had this? I've had On the wine side, I've tasted every item in the store except for some things that I can't bring myself to drink or unwilling to open because of price. ye And on the spirit side, it's probably 90 plus percent I've had the opportunity tasting, which allows me to at least like when you say those things, even if I can't verbalize, like what do I remember of this? have stacks of notebooks downstairs. Um,
00:38:35
Speaker
that I very rarely go back to, but I wrote it down. and So like, I have a memory of, of most of, of what these are. Um, did you get that from, um from the food world of like taking notes and developing your palate and, and get developing like the language around how to write about things?
00:38:59
Speaker
I, uh, no, I would say I got the, um,
00:39:08
Speaker
I would say, uh,
00:39:14
Speaker
in through, through school and through, through hospitality, I was like, write as much down, take, take as many notes as possible, which does not come naturally to me.
00:39:25
Speaker
Um, to, to just try to absorb as much information and like be as diligent as possible with that. Um, the tasting stuff. When I was working for the distributor every Friday, we would sit down at 9 AM m and we would taste for like on a short day, three hours on a long day, like eight and you're toast by the end of it. But even, even if you'd like sip and spit a little bit, yeah, waxed popcorn buckets, just spitting all day.
00:39:54
Speaker
You've got, I got to taste so much and, and those are from like barefoot sweet red blend to, hundred plus dollar wines to, I guess, to taste the entire Sazerac lineup. So like you taste, you hear other people taste. And that's what I think is the most valuable thing. Like listening to other people taste and there's, I don't follow all that many influencers because I think a lot of them are paid for. Um, and you will see that and they, any influencer who is bad mouthing a brand, I think like immediately you should be suspect. Yeah. like And that's not them being paid, but
00:40:30
Speaker
But if somebody wants to get on their high horse and bad mouth, Casamigos, like, sorry, but no they sell how many millions of cases? but They have dialed into a flavor profile with consumers care for.
00:40:47
Speaker
Love it or hate it. And you see them promoting other brands and you're like, that's weird because you you want all this like small batch stuff. And then suddenly it's like a full three minute reel on how great XYZ brand is. That's a national brand that's owned by some international company.
00:41:05
Speaker
So, um, listen to other people tasting, but like try to try to hone in on who it is. And there, there's a few, uh, people on Instagram that I have like gained a lot of knowledge from in the spirits sphere. But yeah,
00:41:19
Speaker
when I was a rep, just listening to a team of five or six of us, like listening to other people be like, I taste this, this is
Flavor Profiles and Food Pairing
00:41:26
Speaker
great. This is great with this food. This should go to this account. This, you know, you should take this here.
00:41:33
Speaker
so, so the the language around flavor profiles is yeah really just kind of like an institutional thing that you, and where, when you talk about like, it, it doesn't happen so much in this country, but around the world, like the food and wine pairing and, uh,
00:41:48
Speaker
there's the adage of like what grows together, goes together and like barbecue and whiskey naturally goes together to me because like, ah where does it come from in this country and what do we eat there? Um, but throughout the world, it's those, those flavors and those, those spirit wine flavors and the foods, um, pairing those and, uh, know, thinking about it from that angle has always been.
00:42:12
Speaker
Very cool. That's what I try to rely on a lot. You don't get a ton of it and in spirits. You get a lot more of that in wine. Wine. In spirits, like hearing other the people, hearing other people and and reading and whatnot has been... It's pretty good transferability around around like wine language and fri flavor profiles like to spirits.
00:42:35
Speaker
Yeah, and there's things that people don't talk about in spirits like tannins. Tannins is something that nobody ever talks about. A huge amount of tannins come out of barrels. or like There's an astringency that is inherent and you taste it in ah whiskeys of that I feel like i've been in the barrel too long or that haven't been in the barrel long enough. And it's tannin structures that end up like just torching your palate. Yep. So my my wife calls it jet fuel, it's like a jet fuel taste. And she gets the same exact, like the same exact effect from a high tannin, you know, whiskey or bourbon or a high tannin, know, red wine.
00:43:09
Speaker
She flushes like all that, all that fun stuff. Yeah. Acidity is something that people don't really want to talk about in alcohols and, um, people talk a lot about viscosity, you talk about sweetness, but there's a lot more of the palate that isn't discussed with spirits, um, that is more wine related. And I think that it's, it's easy to, to talk to customers and, um, you know, wine terminology.
00:43:36
Speaker
Yeah. Is that, do you think that's coming? Do you think we're like the, the beginnings of like the craft spirit movement and there will be more like language and, and like, um, like,
00:43:50
Speaker
around spirits or I think yeah I think there's back to the earlier conversation like heirloom grains yep and like heirloom grains is one thing the finishing series is one thing whether it be Penelope or mm-hmm you know this is a is a finished barrel yep this is a this is a French oak this is French oak yep Zamburano like people want to to add these other flavor profiles um to make of things more interesting, I find. So, uh, craft producers, I feel like want to set themselves apart. Like you go to a craft distiller and it's, or brewery or winery and it's like, okay, that was fine. But if it was like, they had a X, Y, Z, the barrel aged stout, I feel like did that for decade. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:44
Speaker
And like, I feel like there's, there will be literal little one-offs like that in spirits that will continue to make small distilleries relevant in a, uh, community where like, oh we're going to visit wherever yeah in Indiana. i Like, Oh, we got to go to this distillery cause they have this cool or, you know, your local thing. Like, what do you want to show off? Like there's this tasting room.
00:45:07
Speaker
Oh, we got to go to this brewery because they have that. Or we have to go to the local winery because of X, Y, Z. So I think like that will keep, but innovation and and some things will stick and some things won't.
00:45:19
Speaker
Clearly French oak is sticking. i like Every one of Maker's Mark's single barrels is a French oak finish. And that started with the 46
00:45:31
Speaker
program and, uh, yeah. And like there's, there's flavors that people are aware of sherry cask finish and whatnot that like they like now and they were, they were rare.
00:45:44
Speaker
Those barrels are also generally very old and start falling apart. So you don't have many sherry barrels, but, um, people love them. I mean, it's Macallan finishes sherry. So sweeter. Yeah.
00:45:57
Speaker
Yeah. Then we also have some not like dry Sherry's that are coming out, dry Sherry cask finishes. And those are really interesting taste too. Well, they'll have like Pedro Jimenez finished barrel, which is like very sweet. you have an Oloroso, which is oxidative Sherry, which is in parts is like nuttiness and different on the palate than it is on the nose, but you don't get that often in whiskey versus some wine wines or some dessert wines. Yeah. Where they taste and taste and smell totally different. You're like, Oh, this and smells just like, and you taste it.
00:46:28
Speaker
now yeah you You went from being like Christmas dessert to like raw keley yeah leather. yeah
00:46:39
Speaker
So yeah, like innovation will, will continue to push. And I think it like, that's like, but what's the next thing in spirits? And and I don't know.
00:46:53
Speaker
Constantly people are asking, you know, beyond, Rye has grown a huge amount in the whiskey sphere. Yep. Bourbon is king still right now. Um, we don't do much with, uh, scotch. Yeah.
00:47:08
Speaker
And I, I don't know how scotch comes back to being like a large relevant thing because it feels it's much like burgundy and wine where prices have gone up and like McAllen used to be 49 99 and it was like a ah nice bottle of whiskey and now you're almost twice that. Yep. Yep. So,
00:47:26
Speaker
thing The thing that like struck me like visiting Scotland is I expected there to be very exotic things that you could only get there, and it's not. Other than Balvenie, Doublewood, Caribbean cask, like there are some things that you can only get there, but the brands are the brands. It's just like slightly different like finishes that they don't export.
00:47:50
Speaker
yeah Whereas it seems like and and in the U.S., there's just more... creativity, you know, people kind of going out there trying to do different things. Yeah. And that's, I think also talks like the culture of the U S and the alcohol industry right now is in this, um, challenging point where we're like, it's in
Post-COVID Alcohol Trends
00:48:11
Speaker
a lull. I read a paper or like an article the other day that said like alcohol consumption in the U S is it like a 10 year low?
00:48:18
Speaker
And, um, don't know if it's a generational, it's, there are There are some graphs that came out by the times probably a month ago. that maybe maybe And maybe I want to solve it. Well, those were, those brought me back to positivity and that like you watch this this graph and like we were at 5 billion, whatever the the measure was, whether it was cases or alcohol by volume, whatever for for the nation. And like we'd grown steadily as population had grown and consumption had grown slightly.
00:48:52
Speaker
Um, and if you just continue that basically straight line to today, we're where we, we're where we should should be. However, we hit March, 2020. It's like, and suddenly we're in like, you know, you'd be your, whatever, 2150 or We've doubled consumption. That line is not going continue to go. Like you see these like jig tags and up and downs and up and downs until it meets where we are today.
00:49:19
Speaker
um But there's this, like the alcohol industry was like, oh, we need to invest in X, Y, Z. We need to grow our teams this much. We need to invest in other things. yeah That growth was not and natural. And it shifted the way people are drinking in the country. and And the next generation of drinkers, like I think back to where was I at 18?
00:49:44
Speaker
Where was at 21? Where was I at 24?
00:49:48
Speaker
And it wasn't in my parents house.
00:49:51
Speaker
There's this whole band that like they spent two or three formative years, like not going out not so glad and and where you, where that point in and my life was, um in their life, like your formative years, you're you're not going to even like holiday dinners, you're not going to Thanksgiving or whatever. And like, those are drinking holidays. And if that's not a part of like responsible drinking, then even that one time a year is removed. And like, then you're not going out to happy hour on Thursdays and Fridays. People are now going back to the office, but like for years, no one was in the office. yeah um
00:50:29
Speaker
And so like there was not happy hour, but I think back to my early days out of college. every Every day after work was a happy hour. Like, uh, happy hour, what? Oh yeah. Thursday, I'm good. Wednesday, I'm good. Like Friday, like let's go. Um, but if that's not part of the culture that's ah ahead of you and, and like, how will that impact this generation? And is, is it going to be different for the kids who are 16 and 18 and 21 now? Yes. Then it was the people who are the six year block ahead of them. Mm-hmm.
00:50:59
Speaker
Um, people are very worried about marijuana to me. Like, like, um, displacing or cannibalizing alcohol consumption. To me, it's not, yes. Am I afraid of it?
00:51:11
Speaker
But we've got a dispensary down the block and I don't think it's eating into our business. I, I do think that like, there's this, Oh, it's legal now. Like we don't try, but like if you look at who's online there, it's like the,
00:51:23
Speaker
the boomers who are, are not working like, ah I can go get gummies. It's like, it's mom and grandma. Like, yeah, I can know vacuum and watch everybody everybody else's consumption. It's kind of safe to say. Yeah. Um, you're like, I think there, there is a spike in that, but I don't think people are going, they're not going through their day, like perpetually stoned. ye Yeah. Yeah.
00:51:44
Speaker
and you, there's not like that happy hour feel like you can't build a community. it's I mean, it's a, there are communities that way way like but it is like a way less social. thing Yeah. Yeah. And you're never going to smoke. i mean, maybe somebody will, but, uh, it's unlike less likely to smoke a joint with your boss than it is to like share a,
00:52:02
Speaker
beer or wine or whatever. What's your name? Yeah. For the audience and the listeners, what is Jonathan's favorite?
00:52:13
Speaker
I'll go rye because I know you like rye. So I'll just narrow it down. What is my favorite rye? Harkening back to early conversations, Jaywalk rye has an heirloom rye that is killer.
00:52:26
Speaker
Yeah. And that's, local, it's produced in Brooklyn. That whiskey is awesome. I also think there's like some bang for your buck rise out there that you don't think they should be available in most stores. Like the Overholt Bonded and Overholt 114 are like, I think if you blind tasted them against many other whiskeys, you would find yourself leaning towards that $30, $37 bottle versus the like
00:52:58
Speaker
$80 bottle that has a fancy label. It's a drinkable, but hot. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, and like perfect for cocktails. My, my cocktail of choice is the Boulevardier. I love Campari. I love bitter.
00:53:09
Speaker
I love vermouth. I also love Manhattan's. So like, uh, you want something to stand up. You want to be able to taste your base spirit and that. Um, so yeah, would say like those are on the two ends of the spectrum.
00:53:20
Speaker
The toasted rye from Penelope is really good. Yep. I just very drinkable. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, minor case is a new list. all yeah What's your favorite? It's funny favorites. Yeah. Yeah. Minor case. I was wondering for it depends. Minor case is, uh, is a beam descendant, um, Jim beam. Really? So like three,
00:53:44
Speaker
generations later was a gentleman with the first name, minor case, minor case beam. His great grandson is Steven beam who opened the Yellowstone branch distillery, um, and named his rye, which is, it's less than 60% rye. So it's like on that verge of bourbon rye. And like, even, even in the bourbon sphere, I like the higher rye content bourbons cause there's, there's a spice characters less just sweetness.
00:54:12
Speaker
Um, old granddad falls into that realm too. It's like, cra is i mean, it's not a full granddad bonded is like $30 a liter. It's so good. But my buddies, Matt and Charles, like that is like our go-to, especially for like mix drinks, you know, you know, an old fashioned or a Manhattan or something like that. Like it's a great, yeah.
00:54:33
Speaker
Yeah. That's like, want to talk about building people's trust in you. yeah and They're like, Oh, what'd you buy? And they're like looking at $40, $50 bottles. I'm like, are you doing with this old granddad right there? I'm like, you want to splurge, go for the old granddad.
00:54:46
Speaker
Also one 14 proof. Yeah. It's 37 bucks. Yeah. like and it is a Killer. Yeah. Cool. cool Between that and like bullet, like those are kind of like my two like mixing, you know, mixing bottles and the cabinet. Yeah.
00:55:02
Speaker
I forget where bullet is sourcing from now, but they were originally an MGP too. Oh, were they? Yeah. So like bullet rise, MGP source. yeah Yeah. Yeah. 95, five. That's the, like if they put the mash bill on the label and it's 95, five, it is always going to be MGM. Yeah.
00:55:17
Speaker
Um, redemption 95, five, 95, five. Uh, that's good, ne that's, that's a good, uh, liquor store hack. yeah So like if it's on the bottom, it says 95. And like, if you say 95, five, they know anybody who is in the industry will be like, andp we're going to Indiana. yeah That's like, I think too, on on back labels, you can learn a ton.
00:55:39
Speaker
Um, because they have to say like distilled, it'll say bottled or something barreled then bottled somewhere. But like, it'll always have the distillery logo or not logo, the distillery location.
00:55:53
Speaker
Okay.
00:55:56
Speaker
It would be interesting if, like, especially with craft bourbons and whiskeys, if they did get more into, like, the storytelling
Storytelling in Spirits Marketing
00:56:05
Speaker
aspect. Like, that was one thing that was kind of charming about Scotland is, like, every day we would get a bottle. we were on ah a bicycle trip, a tour. So every day we'd get a bottle, and we'd just, we you know, between eight of us, we'd finish it.
00:56:19
Speaker
um a friend of ours, Alison, who was with us from Scotland, she would like read the story on the box, like in her finest Scottish accent. And it was just kind of like set the tone for the night.
00:56:30
Speaker
um You see, you see American craft distillers trying to emulate any of that or not Yeah. And they have, I mean, like the bottles have be gotten really beautiful, like yeah design standpoint.
00:56:43
Speaker
So, um, There's a brand that claimed to be Al Capone's whiskey recipe. yeah This whole marketing campaign is like associating themselves with Al Capone and his whiskey.
00:57:00
Speaker
With or without family permission. And and like i sort forget this the brand has all but gone away after having to pay a huge amount in settlements. no so um The balance of how much is marketing versus storytelling. Penelope, the the brand story is not really told, but Penelope is one of the daughters of the founders.
00:57:19
Speaker
Cooper is one of the sons of the founders. Really? So like there's name association with the children. I assume Cooper was, because like um Cooper is a person that makes barrels. Yeah. yeah But that was his name. Was he named after barrel making? I don't know. If you go to like any distillery or winery that has a dog, there's like a 90% chance it's Cooper. Just call the dog Cooper and you're pretty safe.
00:57:42
Speaker
um So there are a lot of stories told, but like, but they're not it's not on yeah yeah it's not on the Covo label, which is interesting. Makers has done a pretty good job of doing that. Even with the little leaflet booklets and stuff like that around. and those are fun reads for us weirdos. to read I was just going to ask guy who reads the back of the bottle?
00:58:06
Speaker
i would read I would read the back of the bottle. we Other than the surgeon general's warning. yeah like got there' settle hard The government warning is two thirds of this back of the label. yeah Certain brands do a better job.
00:58:20
Speaker
And like everybody picks up a wine label and reads the back label. I mean, like, the first time I saw Penelope, that's why I was like, this is like a wine marketer, just the shape of the bottle and the artwork on the bottle.
00:58:31
Speaker
and Art sells, story sell. Yeah. I can't remember the name of the bottle, but there was one that I've tasted where I think the steel in the front of it came from if I remember.
00:58:45
Speaker
Oh, really? I think there's some marketing strategy there too, but you know they took the some of the steel out of the 9-11 and put it in front of the bottle. Something horse, if I can remember it. Interesting. Maybe put it back on the notes. I think Basil Hayden's has like the whole copper you know wrap kind of you know like treatment to the bottle.
00:59:02
Speaker
Yeah. there's a wine that we don't have right now because I don't think it's being, don't have it right now, but, uh, it's got copper on the label and as it ages, it turns green and they're like, when it reaches this maturity, it is like, or like your basement's really moist. they Like six months later, you got a rusty bottle. Uh, yeah.
00:59:25
Speaker
The marketing pieces is tough. Like how much we are, hit with marketing so much. Like how, how much does the bottle, like there's not that much Penelope marketing, but it feels like they have done a very good job of getting multiple facings out. Oh yeah.
00:59:43
Speaker
And they seem to move high West did a really good job of that too. Like they're, they have a really interesting bottle. Um, they too were sourcing most of their whiskey until their distillery got up to speed. So that much of what they were putting out was, um,
00:59:58
Speaker
Utah juice. Yep. How do people find out about, uh, Lumb Cellars? Uh, Instagram is great. Lumb Cellars, uh, L-U-M-S-C-E-L-L-A-R-S. Uh,
01:00:10
Speaker
Facebook were there, but people don't really find us there. Yeah, I think, I mean, Instagram, especially for, you know, like food and spirit seems to be way more, way more popular. yeah And Jonathan does a great job at it. It's it's like, you know, rails, he just educates you. Some of the rails, sometimes you just watch to go like, oh, that's so cool. Like, I want that bottle. Yeah. So I like the content of just, you know, thought leadership, just getting the word out there.
01:00:31
Speaker
try to be the... Be there being the face of the business all the time. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Instagram is the best way to, to find out. And, um, we do a ton of events. So if you're local, like yeah we do tastings, we're out back right now. We do tastings out here. We do tastings inside. We do tastings and wine dinners, whiskey dinners at a BYO restaurants locally. So cool.
01:00:52
Speaker
So if you're in Maplewood, check it out. yeah Yeah. Awesome. Thank you guys. Uh, definitely like subscribe and we'll see you guys in a couple weeks.