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Andrew Lu on PoE, Fault Managed Power, and the Future of Electrified Buildings
25 Plays1 month ago
🔥 Episode Summary
In this electrifying episode, hosts Jason Shearer and Akram “AK” Khalis sit down with Andrew Lu, a Cisco Systems leader and innovator, to dive into the convergence of Power over Ethernet (PoE) and Fault Managed Power (FMP) — and how these technologies are reshaping the modern smart building landscape.
From his license plate to his Cybertruck, Andrew lives and breathes this revolution. He unpacks the technical, economic, and political drivers behind FMP’s rise, and outlines the “DC donut of viability” — a concept that helps frame where DC power, PoE, and FMP fit best in a building’s infrastructure.
Whether you’re designing networks, optimizing energy, or just trying to future-proof your facilities, this episode gives you a front-row seat to the next power paradigm.
🛠️ Topics Covered
- Andrew’s career journey through three tours at Cisco
- The origin of his “FMP+PoE” Cybertruck license plate
- Why FMP (Class 4) and PoE (Class 2) are the safest, most scalable ways to electrify buildings
- The “DC Donut of Viability” — where power delivery makes sense in smart buildings
- FMP’s potential to bring single-pair Ethernet (T1L) into the mainstream
- Global code adoption and the regulatory landscape (U.S., Canada, EU)
- The FMP Alliance and the role of interoperability, education, and scale
- PoE lessons shaping the FMP rollout (CapEx neutrality, automation value, and labor trade-offs)
- The role of DC technologies in long-distance, grid-level energy resiliency
- Insights from DC World Paris and the international perspective on DC innovation
⚡ Featured Technologies
- PoE (Power over Ethernet)
- FMP (Fault Managed Power)
- ArcSafe DC, T1L & SPE
- Structured Cabling and Ethernet-based power delivery
🥃 This Episode’s Drink
- Old Soul Bourbon — a 2022 cask-strength private barrel selection from Fondren Cellars in Jackson, Mississippi (120 proof!)
📅 Release Schedule
Episodes drop every other Monday, bringing together spirits, smart infrastructure, and surprising insights.
🎧 Who Should Listen?
- Electrical and network engineers
- Building owners and energy strategists
- Smart building consultants and integrators
- Policy makers and standards contributors
- Technologists shaping the future of low-voltage power
📣 Connect & Follow
- Follow the FMP Alliance: FMPAlliance.org
- Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube
- Connect with Andrew, Jason, and AK on LinkedIn
- Comment and share what you’d like to hear in future episodes
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Episode 2
00:00:20
Speaker
right Welcome everybody to the Distilled Buildings podcast. Where buildings are stirred, shaken, and data-driven. Awesome. so I'm your host, Jason Scheer.
00:00:32
Speaker
your host, so This is the second episode. You guys heard our intro episode a couple of weeks ago.
Bourbon Tasting: Old Soul
00:00:39
Speaker
um so Today, we're going to jump right into a bourbon tasting and then and then get you guys into an interview with the one and only Andrew Liu from from Cisco Systems.
00:00:52
Speaker
So what are we drinking today, AK? We're drinking Old Soul. This was actually a gift from you. don't you tell us a little bit about this, Rupert? Yeah. Yeah. So ah so Old Soul is the is the bourbon brand of Cat Head distillery here in in Jackson, Mississippi.
00:01:10
Speaker
um Like a lot of distilleries, Cat Head started out in and and quick spirits. so distilling vodka and gin and other like I'd say, you know, simple or quick spirits.
00:01:22
Speaker
And then, of course, as they you know built up their stock of distilled spirits, they got into they got into to bourbon. And this is you know, under their, you know, sort of their their they're um their bourbon brand.
00:01:36
Speaker
um Like a lot of ah bottle shops, Fondren Cellars, which is here local to me, and they do a lot of you know private selections or um or you know barrel selections from local distilleries as well as like distilleries you know around the around the country or the Southeast. So this is a 2022 private barrel selection ah from Fondren Cellars.
00:02:02
Speaker
I really like it because it's it's it's uncut. It is cask strength. um So I think, yeah, this one's this one's pretty hot. So this 120 proof bourbon. So 60.41.
00:02:18
Speaker
That's a pretty pretty good bourbon. Yeah, so let's give it a good a try. Cheers. Do you dilute it a little bit?
00:02:27
Speaker
Nope, I don't dilute it at all. I do i do you know ah serve it over ice like I like i do ah most drinks. um But even even over ice, like it it is a kind of a it's kind of a sneaky 120-proof bourbon.
00:02:44
Speaker
It does not... It is. Yeah. It'll sneak up on you for sure. it's Yeah. It's delicious, actually. And I think ah the ah flavor profile is so strong, even though I put a lot of ice in mine, and it's still...
00:02:58
Speaker
It's very, very delicious. Yep. Very drinkable. Um, and it definitely has, you know, it's not too hot on the tongue and it um, kind of has a good toffee tape flavor to it. And if you like, look at the color, like it's a really, you know, it's a really rich Amber color, ah bourbon.
00:03:18
Speaker
Um, ah tend to, I tend to like bourbons that are like a little darker in color.
00:03:27
Speaker
Awesome. Cool. All right.
Introducing Andrew Liu & POE/FMP Discussion
00:03:29
Speaker
So for the audience, we're going to bring in Andrew, the expert at POE and FMP. This is going to be a great episode. Yep. and And this is kind of ah this is kind of a a first of a couple of episodes focused on on POE and fault managed power.
00:03:45
Speaker
um So we'll have a few other experts through the months of June and July for our audience to listen to. Yeah, this says good since this is going to be our second episode, and some of our audience probably need to know what PoE means, power over Ethernet.
00:04:02
Speaker
And then what FMP is, is fault managed power. We're going to let Andrew kind of describe what that means to the audience.
00:04:10
Speaker
All right, awesome. up So we're joined by Andrew Liu today of Cisco Systems. Thanks for hopping on with us, Andrew. My pleasure. Welcome, Andrew. Thank you for being here.
00:04:20
Speaker
ah tell Tell us a little bit about what you what you do at Cisco. I know you've had a couple of tours of duty, but what's your what's your current role? This is actually my third stint at Cisco.
00:04:31
Speaker
um But I've been on the golden market side for everything in the campus, wireless routing, um switching.
00:04:42
Speaker
Then I became like a I was a proper product manager for um for the Catalyst switching side on looking at power delivery actually in smart buildings.
00:04:54
Speaker
And that was my second tour. ah and My third tour came in back. um My intent is to actually incubate smart building ecosystem and along with power distribution technologies within Cisco, and that is FMP plus PoE.
00:05:12
Speaker
That's awesome. Why don't you tell the audience about your story of the FMP plus POE and license plate. That was fascinating. Yeah, there there there is a license plate and in ah and a certain certain truck story here, right?
00:05:28
Speaker
Am I allowed to say what what kind of truck do I drive? I think so. It's it's okay. I'll think Elon will mind. All right. All
Personal Story: Cybertruck & Technology
00:05:36
Speaker
right. So um I drive a Cybertruck.
00:05:41
Speaker
was the um with the license plate that says FMP plus PoE. And the reason behind that is is actually it's is' definitely a technology story, right?
00:05:53
Speaker
The Cybertruck is um the first, I want to say, car with 48-volt power distribution within the vehicle and with Ethernet replacing the traditional, I believe, CAN bus for in-vehicle communications.
00:06:11
Speaker
So if you scoot hard enough, it's a PoE truck. Awesome. and like like yeah for for be it For vehicle power, like traditionally, it's like a 12-volt DC system, right? like Just like yeah icy you know ICE engine vehicles.
00:06:26
Speaker
Yes. And that actually um So I know about this going in, but it still came as a little bit of a surprise when you've got the cigarette lighter phone charger that you try to plug in and you can't find ah you can't find ah a connection anywhere.
00:06:44
Speaker
ah That's very interesting. That's a lot of dedication. So how does that translate to the building side?
00:06:52
Speaker
Great question.
Integrating FMP & POE in Buildings
00:06:53
Speaker
We want to do what Tesla did to the to the car, to the buildings, because buildings today, are still on Modbus, BACnet, various, let's say, legacy protocols and and and transports.
00:07:12
Speaker
We want the building to be powered by FMP plus PoE.
00:07:18
Speaker
Cool. I think that's a good differentiator too. um And and like it's like your license plate doesn't say like FMP or POE. Like it's a combination of of the technologies.
00:07:29
Speaker
Absolutely. And it has to be. and Andrew, you mentioned that PoE in specific or FMP. Why not DC systems?
00:07:39
Speaker
Or you did not mention anything about you know other technologies. You're specifically talking about PoE and FMP. What makes those technologies stand out in the built-in system? um It's the safety aspect.
00:07:53
Speaker
I think FMP is a representation of, I believe, what you would call class four in the ah electrical code in the United States.
00:08:05
Speaker
PoE is a representation of class two in the same category. These are, ah think, power limited circuits. these can ah Both are touch safe, ground safe.
00:08:17
Speaker
and they complement each other in capabilities, reach, and also data ah data capabilities. right um I think FMP is still at its starting point in terms of technology.
00:08:35
Speaker
There needs to be a little bit more i think development and more importantly, a little bit more scale. to this technology that will end up, I think, drastically reduce its cost and also increase its applicability.
00:08:52
Speaker
um i Also, FMP today is limited to 450 volts. um I think there's possibility of that voltage going higher, where you end up basically just having touch safe power throughout the building.
00:09:10
Speaker
Interesting. I i always say I'm ah i'm ah um um an engineer at heart, but I cat do have a little bit marketing in my responsibilities.
00:09:25
Speaker
FMP plus PoE, I believe it's a simple enough um simple enough message to get out there. It's not my intention to actually exclude other ah DC technologies.
00:09:40
Speaker
You mentioned these DC systems. I don't know if it's so referring to like the Schneider subsidiary in the Netherlands. No? but I meant the technology.
00:09:51
Speaker
Yeah.
DC Distribution & Cost Comparison
00:09:52
Speaker
But in that, I think Right now, it is a blue ocean for all DC technologies, including DC systems. right there's definitely if if and like We talked a little bit before about the you know my donut of DC dc viability.
00:10:13
Speaker
um and Just su to explain for your for your audience, right we where if we if we think about the um If we think about DC distribution or power distribution within within the building, at the center of the donut, that is your artery that carries about, let's say, hundreds of kilowatts or maybe even megawatts.
00:10:37
Speaker
And then at the outside of your of the donut, that's your very, very small appliances. It could be your AAA battery charger that consumes five to 10 watts, could be access point.
00:10:50
Speaker
right um and So in between, it's it's this ah it's this basically the the the channels to carry electricity reduces or the circuits, the circuit size reduces while the connection or the endpoints increases.
00:11:07
Speaker
Each step, ah cost to the cost of the endpoints because the power consumption is smaller and smaller, the value of the endpoints are getting less and less.
00:11:20
Speaker
But on the other hand, the labor to actually connect all of these endpoints is going higher and higher higher because the endpoints are increasing in numbers, and which gives you a interesting, and I want to say, zone of viability for the technology that looks like a donut. Because in the center, where it's megawatts or hundreds of kilowatts, FMP,
00:11:45
Speaker
PoE, ArcSafe DC systems, I don't think they're going to be ah viable enough, at least at this stage, to actually secure those circuits.
00:11:57
Speaker
And then on the outside, where you have, again, your 5.0 battery charger, the endpoints themselves won't be able to justify the cost of PoE, FMP, or DC systems either.
00:12:14
Speaker
So that's That's what I call a a DC donut of viability. But I also want to point out from the cost perspective, um there's obviously going to be your, let's say your two pin connectors for the battery charger. So that's cheaper than PoE.
00:12:35
Speaker
And PoE will for loads that's less than 100 watt will always be cheaper than FMP because PoE is passively safe, FMP is actively safe, right?
00:12:46
Speaker
So there's always a cost um factor to deciding which technology to use. And the cost is not constant either, right?
00:12:56
Speaker
Because of a scale. um One interesting observation is that we know that this this is a this is a two pin straight, like 18 gauge ROMAX, right? and this is a 23 gauge Ethernet cable, we know it is going to be cheaper to make this than it is to make this because you have more insulation, have more twists, you have more strands, all of that.
00:13:28
Speaker
But Ethernet is at such a scale that if you go to Home Depot today, you buy ah thousand foot of Ethernet cable versus a thousand foot of 18 gauge RO-Max, it's about the same it' about the same price.
00:13:45
Speaker
Interesting. And that's just an economies of scale function is it's become like structured cabling has become very pervasive. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So to a point, right. There's in the low voltage, I want to say in the low voltage category, right. Anything below 60 watt, you're now seeing innovations, uh, that's actually based on the ethernet on structured cabling, such as XPOE, right.
00:14:13
Speaker
because the cabling is the cabling and the surrounding, i want to say, ecosystem is at such a scale, it's cheaper to actually do things um over here than it is over here.
00:14:28
Speaker
And I think that's that points to, I think, how much scale or how much improvement in cost we need to get.
00:14:39
Speaker
Got it And so and some of that some of that trickles down to FMP and ArcSafe DC as well, like leveraging some like a lot of the ah lessons that we've learned over the past 25 years with PoE and structured cabling.
00:14:55
Speaker
Yeah.
Cost Reduction in Single-pair Ethernet
00:14:56
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And FMP, I don't know and if we have um if we have actually introduced to to your audience already.
00:15:07
Speaker
But FMP, this is FMP cable, right? This ah user uses twisted pair, I think, eighteen like 14 to 16 gauge. Can actually go all the way down to 14.
00:15:17
Speaker
But it's twisted pair cables. And this is Singapore Ethernet cable.
00:15:25
Speaker
Look at the, even even in color code, they're they're exactly alike. and So- I think FMP has the potential of actually driving down the cost of single pair, twisted pair ecosystem.
00:15:47
Speaker
And then I think it's possible that FMP will be the cost, will will drive the cost of the single pair ecosystem down. from the power side, and then single-fair Ethernet might actually benefit from this and become the more prevalent connectivity.
00:16:08
Speaker
It's kind of the reverse. it's It's interesting to think of it as basically a reverse XPOE because the connection, like connectivity, is driving the ecosystem cost down for for power delivery on the other side.
00:16:23
Speaker
That's interesting because a single-pair Ethernet or T1L, it's always, we've never really found a real a scaled use case for it. But you think that FMP may drive the um the the viability of T1L?
00:16:40
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. That makes sense. ah And one of the observations is that for, i want to say, for Cisco, single-pair Ethernet, like for On a Cisco and also networking equipment vendors in general, single-prayer Ethernet may not make a whole lot of sense because single-prayer Ethernet typically has a ring topology, right?
00:17:04
Speaker
Which means for entire vehicle or entire building floor, I have two ports that need to connect to a switch, which means you never get the scale um that is that is required by cisco or any other networking equipment vendors to actually develop a switching product for it.
00:17:27
Speaker
Because it actually will be cheaper for the customer to maybe buy just a SPE to regular fiber or Ethernet adapter and get that to ports that way.
00:17:39
Speaker
But With FMP preferring a hub and spoke, ah well, needing hub and spoke um kind of arche architecture that will drive up the port count and that might bring some attention from networking equipment vendors to this area as well and making single pair Ethernet more prevalent and cheaper.
00:18:04
Speaker
You mentioned a lot of of the technical challenges. Was there any political challenges that FMP is dealing with, like what PUE dealt with? Who installs it? Where does it get installed? The emergency part of it.
00:18:16
Speaker
um Tell us a little bit more about that. Oh, absolutely. As with, I think, any new technology, um it has to fit in, I think, ah well, I would say not not not not really new technology, but as a critical infrastructure right that people need to rely on.
00:18:37
Speaker
um You do face skeptic systems upfront, and also you do face challenges from the policy side. right And the United States, i i'm I'm not originally from from United States, so it's a little bit new to me that uh like nec codes or electrical national electrical codes is adopted state by state and it's not a mandatory i think we have last time we look we still have states working on nec 2019 or sorry 20 older than 17 or something yeah older older than that
00:19:19
Speaker
So it it was ah little bit of a surprise to me that when ah but FMP got codified in 2023, actually with um actually with with a lot of a Cisco input, by the way, that I think by the in the early, ah in February when we checked, there was only about 17 states that has actually adopted this.
00:19:44
Speaker
But I think ah with New York and California considering cold adoption, i think this year, it's a it's it's very encouraging. We probably would have covered most of the population centers by end of this year.
00:19:59
Speaker
And that's very encouraging. But it is 2025, two years after
00:20:04
Speaker
two years after the codification. And also we are... That's pretty fast adoption though of of of new of new code. And I think in some some states, um you know, class four and some of these new like restructurings of the code have have driven adoption of 2023. Right, right.
00:20:25
Speaker
And you mentioned the US. Is there adoption outside of the US? How does that look like? um Adoption outside of the us is is interesting. um I think Canada, we're working very closely with basically porting the language from the NEC over, right?
00:20:45
Speaker
um but On the Europe side, it's, i think, a little bit more challenging. um Now, we know there are deployments of FMP over there under, I think, um under low voltage practice.
00:21:01
Speaker
um But I think that's more ah a workaround than proper ah application of rules or laws by the ladder because FMP, strictly speaking, is not low voltage. It is low voltage practice, but it is not a low voltage technology.
00:21:24
Speaker
I think this is also why the United States, we're looking at regulating it together with class two or PoE into limited energy, which is a more, i think, appropriate use of use of language.
FMP Alliance & Global Adoption
00:21:40
Speaker
Yeah. and are there any organizations, I believe you belong to some that are pushing or at least educating the market globally to to kind of get to mass adoption or scalability to your point?
00:21:53
Speaker
Can you yeah talk about what that means and and who are those organizations that are currently in the forefront of this? So, I mean, we are part of FNP Alliance um together with Panduit, Belden, Voserver, and the Prismian Group.
00:22:12
Speaker
Right? We have basically companies big and small from both North America and Europe, all together pushing for education and eventually probably talk about standardization and interoperability.
00:22:29
Speaker
of of this technology. um But that's that's where we are today, still in early conversations.
00:22:39
Speaker
Yes.
00:22:41
Speaker
Excellent. was there Was there anything else like from those early days of PoE, like early to you know late? late 90s, early 2000s that we're taking as lessons with this power revolution? know you talked about safety a little bit. Are there any other foundational elements that we're reusing? I think there's lot of learnings from I think PoE is...
00:23:12
Speaker
about from from po o e i think po o e is um we we use a lot of PoE to actually inform our thinking around, I think the marketing and prioritization or use cases.
00:23:29
Speaker
And I want to say even go into viability of FMP because we have seen this playing out ah in smart buildings, in in in especially in PoE lighting, right?
00:23:46
Speaker
Where PoE really is a I think from the messaging side, it's really CapEx game. PoE infrastructure today, subsystems, especially for lighting, is basically CapEx neutral with traditional AC ah infrastructure.
00:24:07
Speaker
And then we can talk about you know the granular visibility and control, the the battery efficiency um the more, let's say, more um capabilities in terms of automation as well, all of that is an added benefit if you're CapEx neutral.
00:24:27
Speaker
And we find from messaging perspective, that's much easier to um to much easier to to accept from the from the buying centers that we talked to.
00:24:39
Speaker
And that informed our thinking on FMP as well, because FMP, From the CapEx side, because of its safety, it's also a, I want to say, a labor for equipment kind of a trade-off.
00:24:54
Speaker
right And that informed our thinking where the technology is going to be viable today, especially with this technology being new, is likely going to be ah regions where um labor is actually high.
00:25:10
Speaker
This means North America probably is the first one. And then Europe, Australia, New Zealand, ah Japan, South Korea, those are likely the countries where this will be um will be more viable from the start.
00:25:28
Speaker
Eventually with the scale, we we'll get the equipment cost down and then then that will be um that will be, we look at expanding into other regions, right? Got it. So it's really, it's really an economics. and And I know in the construction industry, there's a lot of just hedging on risk, right? If a new technology is, is considered risky, um then viability tends to be lower.
00:25:56
Speaker
Yes. Yes. AK, do you have anything just like coming from the lighting side? Like, do you have anything to add to that just from like risk and cost? Yeah, the the technology itself, the challenge always, to your point, is the client is looking to make sure that they hedge their risk or or reduce their risk as far as deployments, and specifically when it comes to life safety equipments like lighting, et cetera. So that is where a technology needs to have standards and interoperabilities and scalabilities to make sure that it can be deployed for these specific technologies or these specific deployments.
00:26:34
Speaker
Cool. And then, Andrew, you um like as we as we get ready to close out, you were in Paris recently at DC World, right? Yes. and what was that What was that show like? I think it was the was this the first year that they have had that kind of tied onto a BIM sort of a um ah conference?
00:26:56
Speaker
Yes. was a and It was the very first of its kind. um actually. ah
00:27:06
Speaker
And we have actually pretty good interest coming from just people from various side of things. We've had ah customers coming from shipyards, coming from i think one of the largest and MEP firms, I think Equins in France.
00:27:26
Speaker
um And we have like European Commission ah customers coming coming over, checking this out as well. And also, it's ah very actually encouraging to see the various ah ecosystem partners or, I want to say, ecosystem participants are there as well, right?
DC World Conference Recap
00:27:48
Speaker
Schneider DC system is really, really big over there.
00:27:51
Speaker
and we've had some very very, very encouraging conversations about the total, the viability of all different DC technologies. and And like no surprise that that the first one was hosted in in Europe ah where energy is is always is always a hot topic. Was that that kind of what a lot of the presentations and the the intention of the conference was about, like like trying to solve for energy issues in general?
00:28:22
Speaker
Yes. So DC is looked at um I think from not just a energy efficiency perspective over there though, although energy efficiency is is actually quite a big part of it.
00:28:36
Speaker
um A lot of them are even looking at it from a overall a resiliency perspective, because and I think one of the one of the guys are from from the Netherlands or have basically brought up like if you have all of this different and and he's looking at the network from a like not even in building micro grids that we are looking at.
00:29:04
Speaker
He's looking at from a long distance distribution like entire power a grid, macro grid, not a micro grid. um Like there are still going to be challenges about um shocks or ah the nature of of ac um AC distribution is you need to be synced with the frequencies, with the shapes, right? Otherwise you cause undue stress and inefficiencies in the network. And he's looking at even looking at that scale.
00:29:37
Speaker
um And DC should be considered for even longer distance distribution, and so which is basically everywhere.
00:29:49
Speaker
Awesome. Well, Andrew, really thank you for joining us. It was ah an absolute pleasure. As usual, it's always good to see you. Like the halo. anybody's watching, look at look out for the video and look out for that light, yeah the halo.
00:30:03
Speaker
so Don't forget to subscribe, obviously, as usual. Follow us, get in touch with us, and put some comments out there. well Jason and I will respond, and we'll get you the answers that's needed.
00:30:15
Speaker
Thank you. Okay, thank you, Jason, for this opportunity. Yeah, yeah. it's Good to see you, Andrew. Guys, have a one. It's great to see you guys. Take care. You too.