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Bonus Episode Swap: Body to Burial Podcast
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This bonus episode brings you a swap from our friends at the Body to Burial Podcast. Please consider following their show and, if you enjoy this sample episode, leaving them a five-star review. We'll see you on Thursday, sleuthhounds!!
Body to Burial Show Notes:
We welcome our very first guest, retired Chief, FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit, Gary Noesner.
Noesner worked for the FBI for more than 30 years as an investigator and instructor. As a hostage negotiator, he defused prison riots, government standoffs with right-wing militias, overseas kidnappings, and terrorist embassy takeovers. His career trajectory coincided with many significant events in the evolution of hostage negotiation at the FBI.
In 2010, Noesner released Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator, detailing his time working at the bureau. In the memoir, he wrote about the various standoffs he has been involved in, including Waco – his involvement as a negotiator in this crisis would change the FBI forever.
Email: hello@bodytoburial.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Bonus Episode
00:00:00
Speaker
We are so excited to bring you this bonus episode courtesy of our friends from the Body to Burial podcast. While Maggie and I discuss crimes and the theories concerning those who committed them, Body to Burial interviews various experts involved in all stages of solving a crime, including people like forensic artists, jury consultants, and crime scene cleaners.
Interview with Gary Nestner
00:00:24
Speaker
In this episode, they bring you an interview with a hostage negotiator. If you enjoy their show, please follow their show and consider leaving a five star review. We hope you enjoy and Maggie and I will be right back here on Thursday with a new episode from us. Until then, sleuth hounds. This episode may contain content of a graphic nature. Listener discretion is advised.
00:00:51
Speaker
Thanks for joining us today on another episode of Body to Burial. I'm Mariah. And I'm Nikki. We're just two regular true crime junkies who decided it was time to see crime from a new perspective. This is Body to Burial.
00:01:09
Speaker
Okay, Nikki, it's your turn this week. Who do you have for me? Because I am dying to know who we're talking to. This week, we have Gary Nestner. He is a FBI hostage negotiator. What? Did you ever watch Waco? That guy from Waco is who we're talking to?
00:01:27
Speaker
uh-huh oh my god i'm so excited i loved that miniseries myself but i just feel like it would be such a hard like job to convince someone to basically stop what they're doing surrender or talk them down
00:01:43
Speaker
All that. Oh, that's so cool. I'm so pumped. Yeah. He has a book called Stalling for Time. My life as an FBI hostage negotiator. That's pretty interesting to read. I think this is like such a fun person to talk to because I feel like that's such like a fictionalized job. Like you don't think that that's like a real job, you know, to be like, tell us what you want so that you release these people. Like it's just so crazy that that's like somebody's actual job.
00:02:11
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm excited. Isn't that fun? I'm so excited. Let's have him get us or join us, not get us. Let's have him join us. Okay. All right. Let me go give him a call. Hey, Gary, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. Thank you. Well, I have Mariah on here with us. Hey, Gary. Okay. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Nikki, you want to lead them in? We're excited to have you on today. Why don't you introduce yourself and what you do.
Creating the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit
00:02:40
Speaker
My name is Gary Nessner and I'm retired as the Chief of the FBI's Crisis Negotiation Unit, which I led for over a decade. In that capacity, I was in charge of all the FBI's hostage negotiators throughout the country and worked a wide range of situations operationally, hijackings, prison riots, embassy takeovers, right-wing militia standoffs, religious zealots, sieges like Waco and so forth. From the experiences I gained doing that, I wrote
00:03:08
Speaker
a book called Stalling for Time My Life as an FBI Negotiator that was published by Random House. Yeah, it was sort of a serendipitous in a lot of different ways. Did the negotiation unit already exist or was it something that was created and then you became the chief of it? Yeah, that's a really good question. There was not a unit for hostage negotiations. There was a sub-program where we had a few instructors that
00:03:37
Speaker
taught it but it was only after Waco that became a designated unit and I became the first unit chief. So I had 10 full-time supervisors working for me along with clerical staff and we managed 350 negotiators nationwide in the FBI and of course developed a curriculum that was and to this day is still used by almost all the police departments in the United States and around the world. So we had a lot of instructional research and operational response activities.
00:04:07
Speaker
What made them decide it needed a full dedicated unit? There was a realization when the FBI was under good deal of criticism for what happened at Waco that when the situation was examined, it was realized that the negotiators, my team, I led the team out there for the first half of Waco.
00:04:27
Speaker
that we had the right approach and the right strategy, but we weren't empowered sufficiently to make sure that policy was implemented. And so folks that wanted a more, you know, confrontational approach to managing it really ended up prevailing. So after Waco and the various investigations and the congressional testimony, the FBI came to the right decision that we needed to enhance
00:04:53
Speaker
and expand the capabilities and the influence of the negotiation unit so that's brought about the creation of
Negotiation Tactics and Changes in FBI Policy
00:05:00
Speaker
a unit. I was assigned full-time negotiator in 1990 and the unit wasn't created till you know, after the Waco incident in 93 and I was involved in several TV projects including the six-part miniseries that about Waco that the Paramount Network came out with a few years ago in which I was played by Michael Shannon.
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, I watched that miniseries. Your job seems stressful. That has to be surreal, though, to like see somebody portray you on TV. Like, what an honor. Well, it's quite interesting. And of course, I was out there for some of the filming and, you know, became good friends with Mike Shannon, who played me. And he's quite an amazing actor. But yeah, the first time you're watching a scene and, you know, he walks up and says, hi, I'm Gary Nesner. You kind of go, well, no, you're not. You know, I am.
00:05:47
Speaker
And it's very strange and very bizarre. And he did a great job. He wasn't trying to imitate me, but he certainly captured, you know, my philosophical view about things. And overall, the show had a lot of good stuff and a lot of accuracies. There's a few things that I ended up disagreeing with about Waco. But overall, I think they did a good job with it.
00:06:08
Speaker
How does that process work? Is negotiating happening all the time? In the law enforcement context, police departments handle hostage, barricade, and suicide situations every day. Not so much hostage. Hostage situations are actually quite rare. They're probably less than 10% of what negotiators do. But there's a lot of drunk guys beating up their wives on Friday night and the local police go out and
00:06:30
Speaker
you know, try to get the guy to put his gun down and surrender peacefully and not hurt his wife. There's suicidal cases that police respond to quite frequently. So there's a wide range of cases. For the FBI, we tend to have fewer cases because our jurisdiction is more limited to matters of which there's a federal nexus. Bank robbery would be one of those because, you know, all banks are insured by the federal government.
00:06:52
Speaker
anything on a US facility, overseas, terrorism. You may have realized they just had a big situation in Texas at a synagogue and the FBI played the lead role there. So, there are certain conditions under which trigger the FBI's involvement but
00:07:09
Speaker
More common is the FBI assisting local police. And typically the more complex the situation, the more likely the FBI will play at a minimum a supportive role. You know, if it's a really big event, you know, it would probably end up taking the lead role.
00:07:25
Speaker
When you get called there, how does that work? Did the police figure out who the person is and then you just kind of research them so that you have things to talk about? In many situations, you early on don't have very complete information on the person. You may know, in some cases you may know that so-and-so is holding hostages and local authorities know who he is and what his name is and of course we're
00:07:49
Speaker
We're simultaneously looking at his background, his criminal history, his mental health history, interviewing friends, relatives, family members, work acquaintances, whatever it might be. We want to gather as much information as we can, but very often the negotiators make contact before a lot of that is known and the reason we do, it's called verbal containment. If someone's holding a hostage or a victim, there's a difference. A hostage is someone held to fulfill a demand where a victim might be
00:08:16
Speaker
his girlfriend that he thinks is cheating on him or his wife or an employer that's fired and whatever it might be. There's a grievance but there's not really a clear-cut demand. When there's a clear demand, those are fairly easy to address because we know what they want and they're there to get their demands met and not necessarily to die and in fact, death is a rare result of a hostage situation but much more common when we're dealing with high emotion and
00:08:42
Speaker
you know, history of personal anguish between the parties involved. To go back to your earlier question where we were headed, we try to make contact pretty early as negotiators. There's skills that we employ to try to stabilize the situation. That's the initial goal, to make sure that whatever is going on inside the building, apartment, house, whatever it might be, that it doesn't spread further and endanger the lives of others.
00:09:06
Speaker
And then we try to identify who we're dealing with and what it is that, you know, they're trying to accomplish what their mental state is. Are they under the influence of drug or alcohol? And then we try to project to them that they, you know, we're there to try to help them get out of this situation and we don't want to hurt them, you know, and we want to hear what they have to say and try to respond appropriately. So it's kind of a standard approach. I guess I'm trying to say that not knowing everything you would like to know about somebody does not prevent you from reaching out and starting the contact.
00:09:34
Speaker
When you go in and you speak to somebody, it's probably very challenging to build a rapport with them. Are you trying to relate to them and bring it back to like, I understand how you feel because there are some pretty cut and dry, like you do this, you don't do this? Well, you know, it's the old saying about, you know,
00:09:50
Speaker
When we ourselves as negotiators are talking, we're really not learning anything. We know how we feel. So, what we try to do is engage with the individual in a manner that allows us to gather more information. So, we're asking open-ended questions, things that
00:10:05
Speaker
can't be answered with a simple yes or no where we're exploring their mindset and how they feel about things but you know, people want to work with people that they like and respect so we're respectful, we're genuine, we avoid lying and we try to help this person get out of a situation. You know, in most of these incidents, emotional levels are very high and when that's what we're facing, that person's ability to think and behave
00:10:31
Speaker
in a rational manner is very low. You can envision a seesaw when emotions are high on one end, then rational thinking and behavior are low on the other end. So, our efforts in negotiations are primarily focused on lowering the emotional confrontation that we're in.
00:10:48
Speaker
you know, when the police show up or the FBI, a lot of people aren't excited. You know, they're not saying, oh boy, here's the cops. So, they feel threatened and endangered and they're probably very angry, which prompted them to take whatever action they took that brought us to the situation. Our first job is to lower that emotion and to listen
00:11:09
Speaker
and acknowledge what they're going through. Typically, with time, that leads us to a solution. That's why I named my book Stalling for Time. There's a lot of benefits to gaining
Importance of Time and Trust in Negotiations
00:11:21
Speaker
time. A lot of times when tactical action has to be taken, police officials will say, well, negotiations failed so we had to go in.
00:11:28
Speaker
And that's always bothered me because negotiations never fail because when we open a dialogue, we're buying time for the police to assemble additional resources, to maybe get a layout of the building, to practice a plan if they have to go in, to allow a hostage to be released that can give us information, which happened in the Texas case, by the way.
00:11:47
Speaker
you know, it allows us to be better at what we do and not the least of which is to lower that emotional anger that is so often a driver in these situations. So, when we're buying time and if ultimately we do have to take tactical action, we have greatly increased our prognosis for success because we're taking that action based on a much expanded collection of information that's going to help us to do it more safely and make sure our people aren't harmed or the hostages or the victims.
00:12:17
Speaker
whatever they may be. And it's always bothered me when some commander says, well, negotiations failed. It sort of pulls the rug out from under their negotiation team because in reality, it didn't fail. And your success tactically was probably because the negotiators bought you the time to do it. And the other thing we always say, let's say someone's inside with some victims or hostages and maybe they're physically being abusive to them. If they're on the phone with someone like me, I'm diverting their attention away from doing that.
00:12:44
Speaker
I'm diverting their attention away from looking out the window and seeing tactical movement and perhaps inappropriately or overly reacting to that and promoting violence. So, there's so many positive things that the negotiation effort really brings that it's often unappreciated even by police officials.
00:13:05
Speaker
I would never have thought about until you just said it like that. Have you ever had anybody that doesn't want to talk to you and refuses to talk? Yeah, that's not uncommon at all. There's some perpetrators that feel as though if we can hear their voice that we're going to, you know, be able to psychologically figure them out. And there's some perpetrators where the police don't even know who they are. So they're scared that if they speak to us, their identity will be become known. But there's some that just
00:13:32
Speaker
will make a hostage talk to us. But ultimately, we're able to get most of them to communicate with us and that's what we want. I don't want to talk to a hostage other than maybe to reassure them that we're not going to do anything stupid and they should not do anything rash and we're going to get them out of there. That would be about all I would want. I don't want to negotiate to a hostage because if I create a relationship with a hostage, that's not really what I'm trying to achieve. I'm trying to create a relationship of trust with the perpetrator. I'm trying to show him that, you know,
00:14:00
Speaker
I know you may have some bad history with the police and you may not trust the police, but you know, I'm a good guy, you know, and I respect you and I want to help you if I can. I don't want to see you get hurt or anybody hurt. You know, I don't lie to them, I'm genuine, I'm sincere. You know, we project all of those things and ultimately in almost all but a small number of cases, that gets us to where we want to get.
00:14:25
Speaker
I always, you know, tell audiences that when I was a negotiator actively and we resolve situations, I would ask, what did we say that made you come out? Because we try to learn from these cases. And the answer was always the same. It was always, I don't remember what you said, but I like the way you said it. And if you...
00:14:43
Speaker
you think about that. It's really a powerful concept, you know, to consider that the voice, the projection of sincerity may be far more important than the actual words. Yet most people think, well, going to a situation like that, I have to very precisely offer a specific deal and we move in that direction. What do you want to come out? And we try to get the business done right away when we really should be thinking about first creating a relationship and in that process demonstrating that we're worthy of their respect.
00:15:13
Speaker
were someone that they can trust when I say, you know, when you come out, nobody's gonna hurt you. They only come out and surrender when they believe that and that's where we're trying to get.
00:15:24
Speaker
You had mentioned that, you know, part of your job is making people trust you, right? And if you say, okay, you're going to come out, you're going to be safe and it's going to be okay. There was an incident that you talked about in Sperryville. Is that correct? Where you had to like lure a man out knowing that you guys had a marksman waiting for him. How did you navigate that situation? Because I feel like
00:15:46
Speaker
Morally, you would just be torn up inside because you're getting this person to trust you knowing that when they exit, you know, it's not going to be what you said. That's exactly what I did. And it's an extremely rare case. You know, we collectively came to the conclusion, I certainly did as the negotiator there talking with him that he was going to kill a woman for sure and possibly a child. And it was his former common law wife and their child. And he was desperate and
00:16:14
Speaker
it became pretty clear that if we did not make some effort to draw him out of the house and in this case, he wanted to go to a helicopter that was parked out by this farm house that we were at, that if we did not give him that hope that he could escape with them, that he was gonna kill him right in the house.
00:16:35
Speaker
You know, I always say that ultimately the outcome is decided by the perpetrator. You know, they either decide to cooperate and make good decisions or they don't. We strongly, I strongly teach against lying. But in this case, I felt it was the only way we could resolve it was to draw him out. And that's what happened. And an FBI marksman ultimately killed him.
Impact of Technology on Negotiations
00:16:58
Speaker
Again, the trade off is the life of two innocent people for one confused, mixed up, angry man.
00:17:05
Speaker
Have things changed with negotiations now with cell phones and internet? Or is it pretty much the same as it's always been? The skills of the negotiation employer are the same. However, cell phones are ubiquitous. Nobody has a hard line anymore. And how do we control that line? We don't want this person calling everyone in the world or giving his last will and testament to his mother or something. We want them to speak only to us in law enforcement. And that becomes a challenge when they have social medium and other avenues of which they can communicate.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think today's negotiators have to face some of those special challenges that really didn't play a big role when I was in the business. When you were in it, you guys just were cut off all the access and the line. You can only make it directly to you guys, I would assume. Yeah, I mean, typically, yeah, I isolate the phones. One of the things you do is we used to do is change the phone number. You know, we would have liaison with the phone company and it
00:17:59
Speaker
if you were inside holding a hostage, we would change your phone number so at a minimum, no one else could call in to you but us. And then, you know, then we would work with our technical people to isolate the line so that when you picked up your phone, you only got us. So, no one could call in and when you tried to call out, you got us and us alone.
00:18:19
Speaker
or we would send in a field telephone. And of course, now you can do things with cell phones as well, you know, and there's other technical capabilities that I won't get into, but yeah, the object is we don't want this person randomly calling the news media or
00:18:36
Speaker
someone who unintentionally may only inflame the situation, get an argument with him or pursue a conversation that we feel is counterproductive. We want them to talk to a trained skilled negotiator and we pretty much know the way that we're going to proceed to get them to cooperate. That's our goal is cooperation.
00:18:55
Speaker
Is there anybody that has requests like, I just want a soda or I just want like, you know, things like that? You get some odd things. There's a famous case that actually predates my involvement in all this. Back in the seventies, there was a fellow that took hostages in a bank and he had mental health problems and he wanted birdseed delivered to every bank in California because they were having a drought and the birds were dying and that was his demand.
00:19:23
Speaker
There's some stuff you have to deal with that's pretty challenging. And I talk in my book, I mentioned a case in San Antonio, Texas where a guy crawls up a radio or TV tower and threatens suicide. He wants cigarettes, you know, and of course the police are trying to negotiate with him to come down.
00:19:41
Speaker
You know, my mind is thinking, well, there's easier way to get cigarettes than to climb a radio tower. You just stand outside of a 7-Eleven and you ask somebody for one and chances are after you ask a few people, somebody's going to give you a cigarette. So we have to then assume that there's something else bothering this guy and motivating him. And that's in fact what it was. You know, he had some grievances about his medical care and so forth. We get demands and issues all over the map, you know, and
00:20:08
Speaker
you know, what you or I may not think is a crisis is not necessarily how another person looks at. Their perspective is really the only one that counts. So, that's the perspective that we try to discern from our negotiation efforts. Whether it's birdseed or money. I haven't seen a replication of the birdseed one, but we should be ready, I suppose.
00:20:29
Speaker
After you finish a case, do you guys have any mental health person you're supposed to talk to or how do you guys deal with all that? The FBI has a critical incident stress debriefing protocol. Frankly, I assume it's much better today and it was getting better at the end of my career. At the beginning of my negotiation career, it was
00:20:49
Speaker
It said a lot of good stuff, but it was rarely implemented in the manner that should have been. But we certainly try as negotiators to take care of each other because these situations could be quite emotional and quite draining. I have a very dear friend, in fact, I just spoke to him the other day, a long retired police negotiator and just a great negotiator, great guy. And years ago, he's negotiating in a hallway
00:21:16
Speaker
with a perpetrator who's in a tenement building, you know, behind the door and all of a sudden, this person pops out of the door and points a gun at my friend and his partner and my friend had to shoot and kill him as a negotiator and it really tore him up. He did absolutely the right thing. It was a justifiable and righteous shooting
00:21:35
Speaker
But he's a good person that's used to getting people's lives saved. So it really hit him quite hard. And even though he wasn't an FBI agent, but he was a friend of mine, I mean, I had several lengthy phone calls with him where I listened and tried to be supportive and encouraged him to view, to embrace the fact that, you know,
00:21:59
Speaker
there was a choice made that wasn't his and you know, but it can be tough. The toughest thing for cops while we're on this topic where I've seen the most psychological impact is in suicides. You know, when there's a nasty old bank robber and he's a career criminal, he's done stupid violent things and if he loses his life or
00:22:20
Speaker
if he takes a life, we know who to blame. But contrast that with some police officer negotiating with some young person on an overpass and threatening to kill themselves because they didn't get a date to the prom or their engagement got broken or they didn't get accepted in the medical school. I mean, who knows what it could be, you know, basically a good person dealing with a real important event from their perspective in their life. And yet, after speaking to them, they decided to go ahead and kill themselves.
00:22:50
Speaker
Who do we blame then? We blame ourselves. What could I have done? What should I have said? Why couldn't I handle that better? Those are the ones that in my experience have caused the police far and away the most psychological damage. We barely lose people in those cases. We're pretty successful even in suicides but when it happens, you know, it can be quite traumatic.
00:23:11
Speaker
Yeah, I could imagine. The other guests that we've talked to, it seems like the same thing that in the mental health is getting a little bit better, but it's still kind of like some people don't take it. Well, you know, there's no shortage of mental health issues. I mean, I don't know what it is currently, but I remember very early, back in the early eighties, I remember doing some research and finding out at the time, almost half of all hospital beds in America were for mental patients.
00:23:39
Speaker
And when you think about it like that, all the disease and illnesses and operations going on in a major hospital that half of the people overall, at least at that time, were really there because of psychological issues. I'm not making light of those issues whatsoever. I'm just saying that it sort of gives you a window, a look into the extent to which, you know, these problems exist in our modern complex society.
Mental Health in Law Enforcement
00:24:04
Speaker
Unfortunately, you know, law enforcement has to respond and I know there's a big debate going on now with should the police be doing this or should mental health teams be talking to people in crisis, you know? It's not an easy answer because it's situational. You could send a, you know, a psychologist out there to talk to somebody but if the guy's got a knife and gun and he kills the psychologist then
00:24:25
Speaker
you know, I don't think that was a good way to handle it. On the other hand, if somebody doesn't have a weapon and you know, maybe that's a case where the police don't need to be on the front line. I mean, it's a really interesting topic that needs to be vetted out and cities and municipalities need to really have a plan. How can we best serve this community? Because we know there are people clearly who are
00:24:49
Speaker
dealing with a lot of trauma in their lives, whether it's self-induced or, you know, whatever. They're likely to act out. And when they do these situations, it'd be quite dangerous. And, you know, what's the best way to handle them? Is there a case that you think has changed you personally because of how it affected you on your mental state? Oh, boy. You know, I guess I have to say the way, coincidence. I mean, it was a huge failing for law enforcement.
00:25:19
Speaker
It was traumatic in that having led the negotiation team for the first half in which we got 35 people out of Waco and all of that took place when I was leading
Reflections on Waco Incident
00:25:31
Speaker
the team. I was replaced as the team leader halfway through and
00:25:38
Speaker
a decision had been made by some in the FBI to take a more confrontational approach. In other words, this nice talk stuff isn't working. It's taking too long. Let's exert increasing amounts of pressure on Koresh to do what we want. And of course,
00:25:53
Speaker
as a negotiator, we call that the paradox of power. The more you push, the more likely you are to get resistance. So, I knew that was the wrong way to go but I lost that battle and no one else came out and eventually the FBI put in tear gas and the Davidians, you know, lit the place up and a tragedy, so many over 70 lives lost. So, I would say that clearly that has had the biggest impact
00:26:17
Speaker
certainly on me personally, but many, many individuals who were out there on both sides of that equation. It was a tragedy in some ways, I think, avoidable. It's never easy dealing with a narcissistic religious cult leader. I mean, that was never going to be a
00:26:33
Speaker
particularly where there had been loss of life before we and the FBI even got there. There had been a shootout with four federal agents from ATF killed and 17 wounded and four, five, six, uh, divinions killed. So, you know, all of a sudden FBI go out there and be nice to everybody and solve this. You know, I mean, it's pretty, pretty challenging situation.
00:26:53
Speaker
to say the least and dealing with David Koresh was an enormous challenge, a very malignant narcissistic guy, you know, self-serving, manipulative, lying, deceitful, other times also down to earth but always a challenge and you know, it's a long-winded answer to your question but I would say
00:27:13
Speaker
because it never goes away. It's one of the biggest events that happened. You know, it just keeps coming up. So, not that I brewed over it, you know, I feel pretty secure about what I did out there, but, you know, it probably more than anything else I've worked has had an impact on my life. What's the shortest negotiation you've been a part of? Me, personally. I mean, there's something to end pretty quickly, but
00:27:34
Speaker
I remember once it was New Year's Eve and, you know, there was some American citizens kidnapped in the Philippines and I was told to rush to the airport. You know, I fly through the night to the Philippines and as soon as I land, I call the U.S. Embassy and talk to the FBI personnel sign there and they said, oh, they just got released. The word must have got out that I was coming and they got scared.
00:27:59
Speaker
That's my story and I'm sticking with it, you know? I love it. Nikki and I were talking before you jumped on and I was joking with her and I said, oh my gosh, I would probably feel so frustrated if I was married to Gary and we were fighting because when I fight with my husband, I like want him to have like a big reaction and be just as mad as I am. And I imagine you would be very calm and trying to diffuse me and it would just irritate me.
00:28:26
Speaker
So I'm very curious. I think I know what you're going to say, but how do you think your negotiating skills have helped in like other aspects of
Negotiation Skills in Personal Life
00:28:34
Speaker
your life? I've been married 47 years and, you know, and my wife comes from a big family where they were far more likely to express their emotions than
00:28:45
Speaker
than my small conservative quiet German family. But anyway, when we're having one of those encounters, as you described, and I move into my shtick, you know, she'll just wag her finger at me and say, not at home. You know, negotiations usually works better with somebody that you don't have a long standing relationship with because there's so much history there, you know, and
00:29:11
Speaker
how you respond better be consistent with how you do it most of the time. If not, you're going to
00:29:16
Speaker
you're gonna show what you're doing and it's gonna look like manipulation. I always tell people don't try any of this at home. I don't do it anymore but years ago when I was traveling quite a bit teaching police officers, occasionally I would go to some big negotiation conference and there'd be police, you know, typically from all over a state or a region and I would give them a homework assignment. I said, you know, when you get back to the hotel room because, you know, a lot of these guys don't travel away from their families very much being local police and I'd say, hey, you know,
00:29:45
Speaker
When you call your spouse back home, you know, typically this would be a male calling a female and I would say, you know, just ask her how her day is. And when she starts to tell you, ask questions about it and acknowledge it and paraphrase it.
00:29:59
Speaker
And then the next day in the class, they'd come in and say, my God, you changed my life. My wife can't wait for me to get home. She said, what happened? What happened to you out there? See, Gary, you need to do a little side class on like how to communicate better as a husband. Well, you know, it's funny. I gave a speech up in Boston to a major university.
00:30:19
Speaker
And it was funny, it was no faculty, it was all students, there was 200 students from various disciplines and I'm speaking to them and I don't know, based on some questions I was getting, I kind of went off script a little bit and I talked about dating, you know, and I said, for the guys in the room here, I'm gonna tell you something I wish I had known.
00:30:38
Speaker
I said, you know, don't talk about yourself in your fancy car and what a great athlete you are and what cool guys you hang out with and the fun stuff you do. Try asking her about what she likes and what she does and acknowledge it. And then I tell a funny story about, you know, you meet this new gal that you're attracted to and you ask her, you know, you get around to asking her what her hobbies are and she tells you sewing. You know, for most guys it's like, okay, I'm out of here, this is done. I said, but you need to say,
00:31:07
Speaker
so you like to sew. Well, that's amazing. What sort of clothes do you sew? You know, and where did you learn to do that? And did you make the dress you have on? And you know, and so, well, I learned from my nana. Oh, it sounds like she was very important to you. Oh, she was, she was, you know. And then I joked that later that night, the young lady goes back to her roommates in the dorm and she says, I found him, Mr. Wright, you know, this is the one.
00:31:32
Speaker
And I said, and it's all from, you know, listening and acknowledging instead of bragging and puffing your chest out and trying to be a peacock, you know? Totally. But, you know, that's the pathway. People want to be listened to, they want to be understood, they want to be appreciated. People like to talk about themselves and there'll be times where you'll get a chance to tell them about you, but your first initiative should be to try to understand and listen to them.
00:32:01
Speaker
the most effective relationship building skill there is. And some people are quite naturally good at it. And there's some people that will never be good at it. But most of us sort of in the middle can improve with a concerted effort to take our time and to acknowledge it. It's like when you tell a manager, when one of your employees comes in, put your phone on hold.
00:32:29
Speaker
step out from behind your desk, sit down with them and give them your full and undivided attention. Most of the time you don't have to solve any problem, you just have to listen and there's really no downside to that. It makes me laugh because one of the things that I've been trying to remind myself to do is, you know, we're always on the go now as a society like always on our phone or on our laptop or whatever and sometimes my kids will come in to where I'm working
00:32:56
Speaker
and they'll be talking to me. They're just on my peripheral, you know? And I'm like working on my computer. And so many times I have to say like, you need to stop for a second Mariah and like turn your head and like look at them because they're in here talking to you and not making them feel like they're welcome enough to open up to you, you know? But it's something that I've consciously had to start like being like,
00:33:17
Speaker
Hey, I know you're busy and you think this is important, but this can wait a second, you know? Don't feel bad about that because nature has a way of giving us children at the worst time in life. We are so busy making careers, working hard. I find I'm a much better grandpa. I have seven grandchildren, nine and under.
00:33:36
Speaker
And some of the time that probably I didn't spend with their parents because of a busy, busy career that I try to spend with them. You know, I try to really focus when I'm, of course, I'm retired now, I can do that. Nobody ever stayed in their deathbed and said, I wish I'd spend more time at work, you know.
00:33:55
Speaker
But I do think this topic that we're on, this focus on listening and acknowledging, we call these active listening skills.
Active Listening and Mentorship
00:34:05
Speaker
And it's important that they're called that because people tend to view listening as a passive endeavor.
00:34:12
Speaker
it's not. Good listening is active and by active I mean putting in your own words what you're hearing speaking to not only the the the content of the story being relayed to you but the emotion surrounding it. You know we it's like the M&M candy there's chocolate in the middle and candy on the outside so when you're talking to somebody acknowledge both the story
00:34:33
Speaker
and the feelings. We call that a restatement of content and a reflection of emotions. If you can do those two things in your interpersonal communications, you'll be considered a good, likeable person that people want to work with and clients want to return to and do business with. Those who improve their ability in these areas will find success from that.
00:34:58
Speaker
This was so fun. Thank you. Gary, if you don't mind, we always just kind of ask some fun, silly questions at the end of the interview. Okay, we'll see what they are. You got me intrigued. Well, this one we ask everybody. What song do you think would be the perfect theme song for your job? My Way by Frank Sinatra. I love that.
00:35:23
Speaker
I always like to ask this one, what are your hobbies? What do you like to do? We live on a lake. So, you know, obviously swimming and boating, reading and hiking, doing some writing. These are the things that sort of occupy my time these days. Nothing too exciting, you know. You're not jumping out of airplanes and skydiving. I don't do bull riding in their song about skydiving and bull riding. Those are not on my bucket list.
00:35:49
Speaker
I like to ask this question too. Do you hoard anything? Do you secretly hoard anything? Old screws and bolts.
00:35:59
Speaker
It's happened from my dad every time I take some, I mean, something I'm gonna throw away, I will painstakingly take every screw and washer and bolt out of it and put them in a big can and probably never use them again. But it's just like, I shouldn't throw that away. This product's broken, but look at all the screws in here, you know? I mean, so now you know, no one's ever asked me that before. That's a good one.
00:36:22
Speaker
I like it. It feels resourceful. There's more people that do that than not. My husband kind of does it too, where I'm like, do you want to throw this away? Oh no, I'll keep it. I'm like, we have like 500 of them, but okay. Yeah, I see my wife. She obviously should. I mean, she'd throw me away if I, if I hold onto a desk or something like that. She's, she'll purge anything in a heartbeat.
00:36:43
Speaker
Do you have any fears that are irrational? Irrational fears. I have some fears that I think are realistic, but I don't have any irrational fears. I'm a little scared of heights to some extent, but I don't think it's an irrational fear.
00:36:59
Speaker
That's a fair one to be afraid of. I'm a grown adult and I still occasionally, if I'm swimming in a dark pool, I'll be like, there's going to be a shark in here. The number one fear they used to say, I don't know if it's true, is public speaking. I always laugh when I hear that because to me, that's my groove.
00:37:20
Speaker
That's easy. Yeah, that's no big deal. What other profession would you do other than the job that you did? I would have been a teacher when I got out of college. You know, you can't be an FBI agent until you're 23. So I actually got a teacher's degree intentionally
00:37:36
Speaker
as a backup. You know, I think sharing knowledge and information and experience is enriching. You know, and I enjoy being a mentor now. People, my wife laughs at me, I'll spend an hour on the phone with a high school student doing a project. And I just think when you get to be, you know, my age and you've had a whole lifetime career in your rearview mirror that
00:37:58
Speaker
You know, you kind of recognize the value of being a mentor, passing on your experiences. And I think that's what humans have done since the dawn of time, you know, why we've revered people who are older and wiser and they have things to teach us, you know, and we should listen when we can. I could see you being a teacher. The way you explain things is very, very easy. It's very digestible. Now, I've been called a lot of things in my life by a lot of people, but digestible has never been one of those.
00:38:25
Speaker
I hope that that will forever be your highest compliment. This is my last question. What would your last meal be? Oh gosh. You know, barbecued spare ribs, baked beans and potato salad. What are you having? What are you having a drink with that? Are you a sweet tea person? No, what I would have with it would probably be Jack Daniels, but it depends on.
00:38:54
Speaker
When you travel around the world like I used to, a lot of times you'd be in a bar somewhere with colleagues or whatever. Oftentimes it's not a big selection of various drinks, but there was always a bottle of Jack Daniels there, so it sort of became my
00:39:10
Speaker
I mean, bars in Africa and they got two things in the shelf and one of them's Jack Daniels, you know? So I learned to like what they have, you know? And it's funny when they were producing the Waco film for Paramount, they came to me and said, what do you drink? Next thing you know, there's a scene with Mike Shannon playing me and the actors playing my wife. They got a bottle of Jack Daniels on the coffee table. I said, oh. So that's why you asked.
00:39:33
Speaker
Perfect. Thank you very much. All right. Well, ladies, I very much enjoyed it. It was a fun interview and I wish you great luck. Hopefully 2022 is going to be a better year for us all than the last year. Oh, yeah, hopefully.
00:39:51
Speaker
Okay, I'm recording. Let me just finish my bite. Oh. Just a little banana bread break. He was great. So easy to talk to. I think he was super sweet. God, just like the thing that kept repeating in my head was like somebody like him is like built for a job like that because his voice is easy to listen to. He sounds like very like
00:40:15
Speaker
calm and like, I don't, I don't even know what I'm trying to say, but like, if I'm ever in a situation where like it's chaotic, I need him in the room. Right? Like you feel like you would like defuse it and like keep you chill. Yeah. I also was thinking like it really is something, it's a gift you're born with, you know, like I'm sure, yeah, you can take some courses that like teach you how to like ask appropriate questions or how to like, you know, respond.
00:40:41
Speaker
with non, you know, like how to like question with open-ended questions, you know, like I get like there's some like fundamentals you can probably be taught, but I think kind of like what you guys were talking about, some people can just talk to people and others can't. Well, they're even doing that like for hairdressing, you're, they're talking about making it to where say you have a client who's or a kid who's abused or in a bad situation, they're wanting hairdressers to be a part of that, like,
00:41:08
Speaker
I mean, I don't even know what that would be called, but like to address when a situation isn't a normal situation. Well, to be like aware. Yeah. Yeah. There was a time where I had to ask my client, like she had a boyfriend who I don't think he was hitting her, but he was just a little too like possessive. I've never had anybody tell me how they want their hair done. And I had been doing her forever before that and know that that was like completely not
00:41:35
Speaker
like her. And so, yeah, I got like a red flag and I kind of asked her and then asked her family like, is there something happening? You know, like just because you know, some people just maybe have that face or that voice that people want to tell things to.
00:41:53
Speaker
I don't know. I think it's true though. I think that there's just some people that are just easier to open up to. I was thinking about, there's a friend of mine who every time I talk to him, he's one of my most favorite people to talk to. And while Gary was talking and kind of talking about how you acknowledge what they're saying, you ask the emotion. And I was thinking, oh my God.
00:42:15
Speaker
That's exactly what he does. And why I love talking to him so much is because it's kind of like, well, tell me about that. That must have made you feel super sad or you were really frustrated with the kids when they did that. I was like, yeah, I was. Thank you for acknowledging that.
00:42:31
Speaker
It's just something that you're aware of or you're not though, because like even like me, like sometimes I'll like talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk. And then I get off the phone and I'm like, oh crap. Like I didn't even ask them like what they're doing. You know, like it was just like a total like downpour of my life. But I feel like there's like moments like that in everyone's, I mean, probably even in his that it's like that. But I think that like what he was saying, like he should do a dating, like at least a dating course. Oh my God, please.
00:42:58
Speaker
You know, you've meet people where they just like are just, oh, I'm sorry. And you just want to die. And you're rolling your eyes in your head, like thinking, like, when can this be done? And when can I leave? Like, how do you escape? Yeah. Cause they have like no self-awareness that they're so douchey. Well, it's crazy to me to talk about themselves.
00:43:16
Speaker
And I think it's like if I talk about myself and I make myself seem smart or important that this person's going to like me. I think it comes from a place of genuinely trying to feel like I like this person and I want them to like me. And not even necessarily that these people are, you know, douchey, but it's just that fear of like, how do I convince them? Well, they're not going to be good hostage negotiators. That's for sure.
00:43:42
Speaker
One of the things that he talked about that you guys had commented on too, that I thought was, you know, something that you don't think about when you think about a hostage negotiation is you are buying time, like he said, for the police department to get more people involved or to figure out like where the exits are in the buildings or what have you. Like you really are allowing other components to have the time to like get situated. You really are doing multiple jobs all in one.
00:44:11
Speaker
Especially like when he was talking about like the person who's maybe violent to the hostages or the victims. I didn't think about that either. And what a blessing for those people in a situation that already is awful. I could never do the job that he does nor would I ever want to. I think the stress would just like eat me up.
00:44:31
Speaker
Like I know sparesville that whole incident, like I understand you had to weigh the cost, right? Like two versus one, but it's just so hard. Like I, how do you like grapple with that? But it could have been three part that tugs on my heartstrings is like, you convince this person to like trust you and like,
00:44:50
Speaker
I don't know. That's so hard. But also what happens if you didn't convince them and then then all three are gone. You know what I mean? Yeah. It just seems like such a high stakes, high stress. Like I'm just literally picturing Mine Hunter and like the first episode you watch that show like where he like pulls up and the guy's a thing and it's like all chaotic and like
00:45:13
Speaker
get his wife on the phone, you know, like, that's just like what I picture in my head and I just would buckle under that pressure, man. I'm not built for something like that. I think you would be good though. I really do. I think your hairdressing training, I feel like you have like the skill set. I feel like I could, I want to like maybe explore that avenue in my next life. I think you should keep it. Yeah, it definitely should be on the potential for my choices. Yeah.
00:45:42
Speaker
Which now I'm like, is 40 too late? Never. It's never too late. I bet we can call Gary. He'll mentor you. He'll give you the steps on how to get started. If there's a way that I could do it for my house with minimal flying, because then I don't want to miss all the baseball games. Fair. Fair. You got to balance your mother commitments as well.
00:46:04
Speaker
which I will say I really appreciate his like parenting blessing and like, hey, it's okay. Things get busy. Cause man, it is something that I really struggle with. I definitely feel like I have a hard time sometimes like stopping what I'm doing.
00:46:19
Speaker
Yeah. Even if I'm folding laundry, it doesn't even necessarily have to be like I'm working, quote unquote, but I'm in my own head, like I'm in my zone, I'm folding my laundry. I have timelines invisible in my head of like, okay, I got to get this done and then I got to do it and then and then tomorrow I got to go to work. And then and I feel like if I'm not like checking off this invisible to do list, I get like, yeah, I get worked up my whole it's ruined my anxiety like spirals.
00:46:45
Speaker
Yeah, he was great. I loved it. It was great. Great find. Great, great find. Good find. Thank you for that good conversation for the week. I feel good. Okay. Well, until next time. Bye. Okay. Bye.
00:47:01
Speaker
Thank you so much for listening and supporting us. We do encourage you to follow us at Instagram at body to burial. Hit us up on Twitter at body to burial and you guessed it. You can send us an email to hello at body to burial.com. If you have any guest suggestions, just let us know. Please hit the subscribe button or follow button on whatever app you are listening to. Thanks so much guys. See you next time.