Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
REBT, Single Session Therapy, and Anger
2 Plays11 days ago
Listen to my conversation with Windy Dryden, author of 10 Steps to Positive Living
In this episode, I chat with Windy Dryden. Windy is Emeritus Professor of Psychotherapeutic Studies at Goldsmiths in the University of London. He has been working in the field of psychotherapy since 1975, and was one of the first people in Britain to be trained in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (or “CBT”). He learned from pioneers such as Albert Ellis, Aaron T. Beck and Arnold Lazarus, among others. He is a very influential figure in the field himself, best-known as the UK’s leading expert on Rational-Emotive Behaviour Therapy (or “REBT”). In a career spanning almost half a century, he has worked with thousands of clients, trained countless students, and written or edited 285 books on psychotherapy.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Psychotherapy and Stoicism
00:00:01
Donald Robertson
Hello and welcome to Stoicism, Philosophy is a Way of Life. My name is Donald Robertson and today's guest is Wendy
Wendy Dryden's Journey in Psychotherapy
00:00:08
Donald Robertson
Dryden. Wendy is Emeritus Professor of Psychotherapeutic Studies at Goldsmiths in the University of London.
00:00:14
Donald Robertson
He's been working in the field of psychotherapy since 1975 and was one of the first people in Britain to be trained in Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, or CBT. He learned from pioneers such as Albert Ellis, Aaron T. Beck, and Arnold Lazarus, among others.
00:00:27
Donald Robertson
He's a very influential figure in the field himself, best known as the UK's leading expert on rational emotive behaviour therapy, or REBT. In a career spanning almost half a century, he's worked with thousands of clients, trained countless students, and written or edited 285 books and counting on psychotherapy.
00:00:47
Donald Robertson
One of the most widely read, by the way, is his REBT-based self-help book, 10 Steps to Positive Living. And I recently read his Overcoming Anger. Initially came out in 1993, but it's been revised since, which I hope we can talk a little bit about but later.
00:01:00
Donald Robertson
So, Wendy, hello. Welcome. How are you? i'm looking forward to our chat.
00:01:04
Windy Dryden
um Very well, Donald, and thank you very much for inviting me.
Evolution of Psychotherapy Practices
00:01:09
Donald Robertson
So I want to focus on questions that really tap into your vast experience and that might be of some practical benefit to those listeners out there. um But I think we have to preface that with a little bit of background.
00:01:21
Donald Robertson
And I think a good way to to raise that, to cover that, would be to ask you how psychotherapy has changed since you first entered the field in the 1970s. What do you think different since you first became a psychotherapist?
00:01:35
Windy Dryden
Well, I think you've you've got um probably much more um ah emphasis on things like um integration and pluralism.
00:01:40
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:01:47
Windy Dryden
ah The old term eclecticism has seems to have gone out of fashion. So I think that's that's changed ah a bit. There's um the CBT that I was originally, you know, trained in. It seems to be quite, quite different from from CBT at the moment.
00:02:06
Windy Dryden
um I think ah the the old second wave emphases on, let's see if we can help people to change their cognitions and attitudes seems to have given away to the more third wave emphasis on acceptance and ah mindfulness. and It's almost like we're saying you know either it's too difficult to help people to change their ideas or you know people can get easily caught up in it.
00:02:42
Windy Dryden
so let's Let's see if we can offer them a different a different perspective.
00:02:44
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:02:47
Windy Dryden
And I do have certain things to say about that if you want to kind of talk about that a little bit later. But I think certainly in CBT, we never we we had a I mean, I was in Philadelphia 1981.
00:02:52
Donald Robertson
Yeah, we can correct
00:03:00
Windy Dryden
ah in nineteen eighty one I spent six months doing an extended training with Aaron Beth and his people.
00:03:00
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:03:07
Windy Dryden
And um although that was sort two years after their cognitive therapy of depression, came out and although that was seen to be a manual it's quite a lot less prescriptive than some of the approaches to to cbt now um so i think that yeah there's been quite a lot of uh and certain approaches like um
00:03:15
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:03:25
Donald Robertson
right
00:03:28
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:03:33
Windy Dryden
I mean, REBT, you know, used to be much more influential back in ah when I first trained than it is now.
00:03:38
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:03:41
Windy Dryden
I mean, to be hit to be um to be deemed to be Britain's leading REBT therapist in the UK is not exactly. There's about four of us.
00:03:53
Windy Dryden
No, I'm joking, but it's it's it does seem to have lost a lot of um lot of popularity. um Again, because it's part seem to be part of the sort of the the second wave approaches.
00:04:08
Donald Robertson
Yeah, the old girl.
00:04:09
Windy Dryden
And there's not it's not segue. I mean, I think that if you look at um therapies as well as ah what we do, but but how how they're marketed. I think you know Beck and his people have done a great job of somehow said segueing from cognitive therapy to cognitive behavior therapy.
00:04:30
Windy Dryden
um So the term cognitive therapy tends not to be used with with any degree of frequency these days, I think.
00:04:38
Donald Robertson
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, there was originally REBT was controversial in some people's eyes because, you know, it was emerging at a time when psychoana psychodynamic and humanistic therapies were but dominant. So I kind of feel, you know, up until a few decades ago, there was more pushback against the cognitive behavioral approach.
00:04:59
Donald Robertson
And then it gradually became like gain. It took out it took CBT a little while to gain mainstream acceptance. Would that be fair to say?
Philosophical Roots and Influence of REBT
00:05:06
Windy Dryden
I think so, yes. I mean, I think that um ah I mean, I do, um particularly in in Britain, give a lot of credit to people like David Clark and Paul Salkovskis, who are at the kind of forefront of actually um really kind of bringing um you know cognitive behaviour therapy into Britain and into the National Health Service.
00:05:19
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:05:32
Windy Dryden
um So I think they've done a splendid job of of actually kind of ah sort of making it almost ah sort of like the central plank of of of psychotherapeutic interventions.
00:05:46
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:05:46
Windy Dryden
Now, I think that's fallen away to some degree. And as I say, because of the the impact of the of the more of the third wave approaches. And I think the kind of
00:05:56
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:05:56
Windy Dryden
you know the more openness to ah to psychoanalytic approaches to be to being more um empirically supported and um the the recognition that for example counseling for depression which is stems largely from a person-centered approach that it seems to be of of value as well and all the all the interpersonal approaches as well so I think that we've got I mean it's we've come back to the idea that there's still quite a lot of different approaches, but they're different from where I was.
00:06:26
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:06:29
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:06:30
Windy Dryden
like so So you've got um approaches like Adlerian therapy, which is now you know virtually disappeared.
00:06:35
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:06:37
Windy Dryden
Sorry if ah if I'm offending anybody.
00:06:39
Donald Robertson
Sorry Adla. Yeah.
00:06:41
Windy Dryden
Transactual analysis, which is there, but again, not as not as um as popular as it was.
00:06:45
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:06:48
Windy Dryden
Gestalt therapy, again, is is there, but not as popular. her as as it was. So you've got a ah bit of a sort of a shaking up of of the different approaches coming to the fore, I think.
00:07:01
Donald Robertson
Do you, you must feel, and maybe I'm putting words in your mouth here, but do you think some things come around in cycles? Like, ah you kind of hinted at that already, you know, a little bit, I think. i mean, that you mentioned gestalt therapy.
00:07:12
Donald Robertson
There's bits of gestalt techniques that are, that seem to me just to be recycled in the, in acceptance and commitment therapy and some of the third wave approaches. We get the new thing.
00:07:21
Windy Dryden
well i think well yeah i mean some some some wise person once says one doesn't make a career for oneself saying that i've done what he or she has done you you you make a name for yourself by coming up with with um uh something novel which
00:07:21
Donald Robertson
Sometimes we get old techniques under different names.
00:07:32
Donald Robertson
um um
00:07:44
Windy Dryden
There's an interesting book that I'm not quite precisely clear about the title. as um ah was about how Albert Ellis's ideas had you know can be found in a number of different current approaches, but without necessarily understanding.
00:08:03
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:04
Windy Dryden
you know doing ah you know what ideally people should do which is to say look you know let's give credit to him so you've got you know the so situation now donald one of the most influential introductions to cognitive behavior therapy i think it's edited by helen uh kennely doesn't mention ellis or rebt
00:08:29
Donald Robertson
yeah Yeah, I know. I know exactly what you're talking about. It's kind of crazy. And I don't like the NHS obviously shapes, you know, the culture of CBT to a large extent in the UK.
00:08:41
Donald Robertson
And REBT doesn't feature in the NHS worldview of CBT very much. But you know what?
00:08:48
Windy Dryden
No, in fact, big ah the BABCP of as sort of, you know, as the there's the argument is, is REBT a cognitive behavioural approach or not?
00:08:57
Donald Robertson
ah Yeah, that that which like seems odd. But the um I was going to say, like one of the things that I like most about Albert Ellis is that out of all of the psychotherapists that I've read,
00:09:11
Donald Robertson
he's probably the one that most frequently mentions his predecessors and his inspiration and where he got ideas from. Like, Ellis is always referencing, he says, you get this technique in this therapist and, you know, like, i got you know got some inspiration from the Stoics and from Buddhism and things like that.
00:09:25
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:09:30
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:09:30
Donald Robertson
You know, whereas other authors, it's like they act as if they'd never read any books on psychotherapy before and they're, you know, this is all original stuff that they're coming up with.
00:09:39
Windy Dryden
Yeah, I think I would agree with that, Donald.
00:09:43
Donald Robertson
So he had, strangely, a strange that kind of intellectual humility that I think is quite admirable. But there's one guy, um at least it stands out for me, that Ellis doesn't mention, although I believe that Ellis claimed that he hadn't read his works but found out about them later.
00:09:58
Donald Robertson
And that's Paul Dubois, who was a big deal back in the day and then was almost completely forgotten about. it he had a kind of rational approach to psychotherapy at the beginning of the 20th century.
00:10:04
Windy Dryden
Yes.
00:10:09
Windy Dryden
I think Ellis does mention Paul Dubois somewhere, but but but not, you know, giving him as much you know credit.
00:10:11
Donald Robertson
He mentions him, yeah.
00:10:17
Windy Dryden
And, um you know, maybe, maybe, Donald, one of your future projects might be the rehabilitation of Paul Dubois.
00:10:27
Donald Robertson
Bring him back. Bring back um but rational psychotherapy from the Edwardian era.
00:10:28
Windy Dryden
Bring him back.
00:10:33
Donald Robertson
Let's do it. So we should probably say little bit about what is r REBT because we're going to have some listeners that aren't very familiar with it and they should be familiar with it. So in a nutshell, and I'm sure you've done this many times before, how would you explain what, first of all, let's say where where does REBT come from?
00:10:51
Donald Robertson
Like how does it originate? We mentioned Albert Ellison passing. He's the originator.
00:10:55
Windy Dryden
Yeah, sure. Sure. I think it, you know, I think there are and ah certain routes into REBT. And as you said, that, you know, Ellis was good at at crediting people who had influenced him.
00:11:09
Windy Dryden
And ah some of the people who have influenced him have been Bertrand Russell.
00:11:15
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:11:15
Windy Dryden
um Of course, you know, the Stoics. And, ah you know, I always like to say if we take, you know, ah you know I've seen various ah versions of this, but let's take people um ah you know are disturbed not by things, but by their views of things. and So Ellis would, well, I would say, yeah because i've I've sort of did a bit of a makeover of some of the language REBT, which I've not exactly been happy with over the years.
00:11:44
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:11:46
Windy Dryden
But you know people disturb themselves about things
00:11:49
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:11:51
Windy Dryden
because of the rigid and extreme attitudes that they hold towards things. And the other thing is, and if they were to hold a set of flexible and non-extreme attitudes towards the same things, that they would respond to these things with greater, um a degree of healthy behavioral responses, emotional responses and cognitive responses.
00:12:18
Windy Dryden
So I think at the root of REBT, I would still say is it.
Unique Features of REBT
00:12:23
Windy Dryden
I would so I would say that REBT was basically an attitudinal approach to, you know, to um an understanding of human disturbance and health and and the implications that that has for therapy.
00:12:23
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:12:27
Donald Robertson
who
00:12:37
Donald Robertson
Could you give a common example of rigid demand?
00:12:43
Windy Dryden
um you Yes, um I think a common example might be that um ah look let's take an anger example that ah people absolutely must follow good behaviour like queuing up for a bus.
00:12:56
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:13:08
Windy Dryden
You know, and so you start off with a very healthy preference. And the thing I like about ah r REBT, it's really saying, look, you know, our preferences are just fine.
00:13:21
Windy Dryden
I mean, it's you know, it's um I would like people to do the right thing and to cue is fine. And then you've got a choice between saying and therefore they have to or sadly they don't have to.
00:13:33
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:13:36
Windy Dryden
And if you go the they have to, you get one type of anger. And if and if you go the other way, you get a different type of anger. And so I think one of the things that I like about RABT, it does distinguish between healthy and unhealthy negative emotions, as it is it calls it.
00:13:55
Windy Dryden
It's it's, you it's interesting, know, Donald, if you look at or read people and
00:13:57
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:14:01
Windy Dryden
people have got different views about what emotions are some people say that all emotions are good um and you know it's what we do with them that you know is is the problem and rebt is saying well actually you know if you set up a certain set yourself up a certain way you're going to get into trouble if you hold these rigid and and extreme attitudes um
00:14:25
Donald Robertson
Yeah. wait What we were talking about about the past, the something similar used to be called the tyranny of the shoulds.
00:14:31
Windy Dryden
Yes, and that is Karen Horney. we We should give a shout out for Karen.
00:14:35
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:14:37
Donald Robertson
Big shout for Karen Orney. So they these should statements are actually sometimes quite prominent in anger. like Maybe you know particularly explicit in anger.
00:14:50
Donald Robertson
and Particularly people should not speak me like that. you know I should not do this or that.
00:14:53
Windy Dryden
Well, you see, there are about nine different meanings of the word should.
00:14:59
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:15:00
Windy Dryden
um in the english language and and therefore if you know i when i'm like training therapists in rebt i'm just saying look you know sure you can use the word should but kind of make sure that we distinguish between you know preferably should and you know absolutely should it's the rigid version of the should that gets people into trouble not the idea that it's a good idea or i recommend it and things like that
00:15:09
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:18
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:15:23
Donald Robertson
ah
00:15:27
Donald Robertson
So it's more about the rigidity than about the semantics, per se.
00:15:31
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:15:31
Donald Robertson
And you know, Wendy, to talk about a completely different type of philosopher, it reminds me a little bit of a distinction that we get every philosophy undergraduate learns about ah from Immanuel Kant between a conditional imperative and a categorical imperative.
00:15:31
Windy Dryden
Oh, yeah.
00:15:48
Donald Robertson
So Kant said the categorical imperative is you should consider do that so you should do that it's unconditional it's absolute and a conditional imperative is if you want to achieve such and such then you should this do that okay
00:16:03
Windy Dryden
Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. And I think that certainly i think that, um you know, Ellis did um give credit to Kant on that point ah because it is a difference between, as you say, conditional should and an absolute should.
00:16:21
Windy Dryden
Yeah, quite.
00:16:23
Donald Robertson
So this is the core of r REBT um and it's a solid, it's a pretty solid foundation. Like REBT, I think has stood the test of time in part, like it's been around for as long as it has in part because it's a pretty plausible ah way of approaching a lot of emotional and behavioral problems.
00:16:41
Donald Robertson
But wonder, could you say little bit more about how you perceive the difference between a REBT and other types of CBT?
00:16:50
Windy Dryden
Yeah, well, I think that, that I mean, I, um um interesting you asked that question because I was, years ago, um i think um after Ellis passed away, i think some of us were saying, well, look, you know, we need to kind of really,
00:17:09
Windy Dryden
come up with some sort of statement about, you know, what are the unique features of our EBT?
00:17:11
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:17:15
Windy Dryden
And so I ah kind of gave that some thought and started an article, which actually turned into a book, which turned into a series. and And it's about, i yeah call it the CBT Distinctive Feature Series, which, um and so that each,
00:17:29
Donald Robertson
Right. Yeah, yeah.
00:17:32
Windy Dryden
book in that series lists the the 30 different if different distinctive features half theoretical half practical and so I think that I mean I think certainly the the kind of the the idea that we're looking at really the difference between rigid and flexible ideas attitudes I think is that's probably
00:17:42
Donald Robertson
Yeah, yes.
00:17:56
Windy Dryden
the core for me of of the ah of the approach. I think REBT's viewpoint about the self and the implications for self-esteem is fairly um ah unique still.
00:18:11
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:18:11
Windy Dryden
I think the difference between unhealthy and healthy negative emotions is again fairly unique and distinctive towards REBT.
00:18:11
Donald Robertson
yes
00:18:21
Windy Dryden
um so think those are the those are the kind of you some of the ideas which i think are really really core to this particular um you know sort of approach
00:18:33
Donald Robertson
You know, one of the things I just want to ask you, it comes into my mind as we're speaking, it feels to me I think when you, like if you've been studying a so any subject for a long time, sometimes you become more interested in what's really basic about it and foundation foundational to it.
00:18:46
Windy Dryden
yeah
00:18:47
Donald Robertson
You know, like I see Marshall, if you speak to a karate expert, you know, he and you say, wait, what you know, what's the most important thing? He may say it's the way you stand or the way you breathe or something like that. And, you know, the ABC model is the kind of core in a sense of REBT. But in a sense, I wonder if one of the main revelations that CBT in general, and maybe particularly REBT has for people, is that we have a folk psychology um in our society with a very simplistic understanding of emotion.
00:19:20
Donald Robertson
So many people think of emotion is just like a kind of blob of energy or something that builds up inside them. Sometimes people call this the hydraulic model of emotion. And the idea that it's not just how you feel, but it's also how you think.
00:19:29
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:19:33
Donald Robertson
The emotions might be cognitive. at some level, I think is a game changer. Like it's ah a revelation. And that insight alone, I think is, you know, many people would would benefit from just understanding that there's there's cognition going on in their emotions.
00:19:52
Windy Dryden
Yeah, i mean, I think that, I mean, one of the things that I um really ah kind of like doing, it if if you look at if you look at the ABC, where I would say A stands for an adversity ah rather than an activating event. That's one of the things, that something something which we perceive to be negative has happened, whether it has or not.
00:20:15
Windy Dryden
that's not the point but we kind of see um some kind of adversity and we we kind of appraise that with either a um a rigid and um non-extreme way of over of of um using our attitude or a flexible Now, those have an impact on not only the way we feel, but also our action tendencies, the way we, you know, we feel like acting and also also subsequent cognitions.
00:20:46
Windy Dryden
So one of my favorite um ah questions for my master's course, I used to run a master's course in REBT was was this, Donald. um um ah Cognitions are ubiquitous in the ABC framework of REBT.
00:21:03
Windy Dryden
Now, interestingly enough, they wouldn't let me ask that question.
00:21:03
Donald Robertson
um Right.
00:21:06
Windy Dryden
You know why?
00:21:08
Donald Robertson
Really?
00:21:09
Windy Dryden
Because they thought that master's level students would not understand what the word ubiquitous meant.
00:21:15
Donald Robertson
really
00:21:16
Windy Dryden
Really, yeah.
00:21:17
Donald Robertson
Jeez, man. You have to have a good grasp of language in in some ways to be a therapist because some of your clients are going to be articulate.
00:21:25
Windy Dryden
Yeah. So the idea that the but adversities are cognitive because they're inferential, we kind of make sense of it. they Obviously, ah our attitudes are are um ats at B are um ah um ah cognitive and also ah the cognitive consequences because this kind of way of looking at it is not not only they're going to be emotional consequences of holding attitudes, behavioral consequences of holding attitudes, but also cognitive or thinking cognitive consequences.
00:21:33
Donald Robertson
Yes.
00:21:39
Donald Robertson
and
00:21:42
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:21:46
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:21:57
Windy Dryden
And that's why, you know, when people say nobody will like me, right i see that as a cognitive consequence of a prior um rigid and extreme attitude
00:22:06
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:22:09
Donald Robertson
ah
00:22:09
Windy Dryden
um
00:22:11
Donald Robertson
And also with regarding the the adversity or the activating event, there's ah there's a whole and insight there are for people, which is, you know, you could be mistaken.
00:22:24
Windy Dryden
yes
00:22:24
Donald Robertson
ah so you might But you might believe that somebody's been trash-talking you, right? Because you've heard rumors to that effect. And that might really upset you, but it could it could turn out that you're just wrong.
00:22:35
Donald Robertson
you know It might be a lie. ah you know and You're mistaken about the supposed event that you're responding to. But REBT focuses on challenging the response to that or the irrational belief.
00:22:51
Windy Dryden
Well, we say, we say, let's, well, we, but of one of the things that I'm particularly interested in is, is i think that, and I think this is, you know, relevant to any therapeutic approach is that you've got, you've got a body of knowledge, youve you know, which in fact,
00:23:04
Donald Robertson
Thank you.
00:23:07
Windy Dryden
you You're really saying these are some of the ideas that you might find helpful to clients. Now, clients are coming in with their own ideas about what's going to be helpful you know for them.
00:23:19
Windy Dryden
And I think the idea is that is not the idea is that we're going to create um clients in our own image. But but ah the idea is that.
00:23:33
Windy Dryden
you know there's a therapeutic alliance here as well ah ah ah at play and i think that one of the things that i think rebt therapists kind of neglected over the years was was the that particular idea of an alliance that you you really are in alliance with somebody and and uh um yes this might be very yeah it makes sense but if a client's not going to buy it i mean i remember um
00:23:47
Donald Robertson
uh
00:24:01
Windy Dryden
One of the things that I used to do when i used to go over it ah to America when the RABT Institute was was on the Upper East Side in a grand, grand building, which unfortunately they had to sell.
00:24:14
Windy Dryden
But um I used to kind of sit in on Ellis' groups um which was a great, you know, I mean, you know, imagine, you know, being able to sit in and see, um you know, some of the greats do therapy live.
00:24:28
Windy Dryden
Anyway, so he was working with this this woman and he's basically was saying, well, unless you accept that Hitler was a fallible human being, you'll be you'll be sick for the rest of your life, you know.
00:24:32
Donald Robertson
It
Therapeutic Alliance in REBT
00:24:43
Windy Dryden
Well, okay, that's that's an interesting viewpoint.
00:24:43
Donald Robertson
would be quite forceful, yeah.
00:24:45
Windy Dryden
Anyway, two years later, Two years later, i go back to the same group and she still she still hasn't accepted.
00:24:50
Donald Robertson
huh
00:24:54
Windy Dryden
So at what point do you say, look, you know, this client is not going to accept this idea. All right.
00:25:01
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:25:02
Windy Dryden
Or do you kind of keep plugging away at it? So I think that one of the reasons I think RABT has had a bad name is is because it does, if if if if not practice with ah more than a ah nod to the therapeutic alliance, you can get into that sense that you're arguing
00:25:05
Donald Robertson
Interesting.
00:25:09
Donald Robertson
are
00:25:19
Donald Robertson
you?
00:25:21
Windy Dryden
people and One of the reasons that REBT is no longer regarded as um a ah CBT approach is that because CBT in in Britain is now saying that, you know, the the the collaborative empiricism, the Socratic nature of this relationship is a defining feature of of CBT.
00:25:25
Donald Robertson
ah yeah
00:25:46
Windy Dryden
Which is strange because it's it's basically saying that, you know, we can we can say what is and what is not a particular therapy by the style of the therapy, which is a bit strange, would have thought.
00:25:56
Donald Robertson
ah Yeah, yeah. i mean I mean, also you what you're advocating, I guess, as well as a slightly more flexible understanding of therapy.
00:26:07
Donald Robertson
of therapy Which ironically, like you know it's almost like applying REBT itself. The way you just portrayed Ellis, it sounds like he's being a little bit rigid you know and imposing it.
00:26:16
Windy Dryden
Well, he can be, but yes, what he can be. But I think the other thing is that though you if you if you read accounts of Ellis um from his clients,
00:26:30
Windy Dryden
um one of the things that come across time and time again is how accepting he is.
00:26:37
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:26:37
Windy Dryden
of of the person now once um came across um an indian rebt therapist who um had uh published in fact he had two thick volumes of correspondence with ellis you know and and i was reading these things and i'm saying
00:26:46
Donald Robertson
Oh,
00:26:57
Donald Robertson
ah wow.
00:27:01
Windy Dryden
I would not have the patience for this.
00:27:04
Donald Robertson
Uh-huh.
00:27:04
Windy Dryden
But Ellis, you know, really, very you know, is very good at correspondence
00:27:09
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:27:12
Windy Dryden
um
00:27:13
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:27:13
Windy Dryden
and um and really being accepting and really patient. and i think that that came across you know to a lot of his of his clients and and one of the things that he was a bit uh concerned about is in fact um so interesting interview i did with him in a book that i published in 1985 called therapist dilemmas and he
00:27:18
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh.
00:27:22
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:27:36
Windy Dryden
talked about the dilemmas of being ah warm with clients. And I think he was a bit concerned that warmth meant that people would, you know, become actually more um ah needing of approval. And therefore, you have to be a little bit careful about that.
00:27:55
Donald Robertson
Well, Ellis wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but he was a great, he was one of the great therapists. Here's a bit trivia about him. and like I suspect Ellis possibly saw more clients than any other famous, or certainly most other famous therapists. like He must have seen ten but business tens of thousands of clients over the course of his career.
00:28:16
Windy Dryden
Yeah, well, i'll I'll let you into a little secret. for her um When I was um went over to ninety in in the Center for Cognitive Therapy in 1981, my wife, my new wife, we just got married on the Sunday,
00:28:28
Donald Robertson
Right. Mm-hmm.
00:28:33
Windy Dryden
and we actually took the plane to Philadelphia on the Monday. And this was an early sign of what what married life is going to be like but with me. Anyway, she ah got a job at the Center for Cognitive Therapy in in Philadelphia.
00:28:45
Donald Robertson
right
00:28:48
Windy Dryden
And um ah people, you know, as you imagine, would ring up and say, i want to make an appointment to see Dr. Beck. And so the line was, Dr. Beck doesn't see patients. so but we can So actually, my argument was that probably Aaron Beck was not a very experienced cognitive therapist because he didn't see that many patients. Whereas Alice...
00:29:12
Windy Dryden
You know, as you're saying, I mean, he's probably, you know, a tremendous, this um you know, experience.
00:29:14
Donald Robertson
a bit right. Yeah.
00:29:21
Windy Dryden
And one of the things he used to do, Donald, which is um ah is that he used to make tapes.
00:29:23
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:29:28
Windy Dryden
In the old days, it was reel-to-reel tapes. But in in modern technology, it was it was this ca ah ah cassette tapes with the client's permission.
00:29:31
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:38
Windy Dryden
He would put it at the end of the day in a shoebox, which he put in the fellows room, the the you the training fellows. And you could actually go in and listen to to Albert Ennis doing therapy.
00:29:49
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:29:52
Windy Dryden
And one of the things that I discovered and probably one of the early sort of um sort of influences on my later interest in single session therapy is that you could see ellis for half an hour or you could see ellis for an hour and i'd listen to a number of of half hour sessions for ellis and our sessions and i would say always go and see ellis for half an hour because he's going to do the same he's going to be a lot more focused you see you know so yeah
00:30:23
Donald Robertson
Interesting. That's amazing. Interesting. And you know, the funny thing here, this is a bit trivia, but we've been talking about the history of the subject a little bit. In some ways, Ellis in that regard is the complete opposite of Sigmund Freud.
00:30:38
Donald Robertson
So Sigmund Freud wrote, was it 12 volumes or something? He's collected works, but he says very little in all of those books about what he actually said and did with clients.
00:30:48
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:30:49
Donald Robertson
room He psychoanalyses like Moses and Dostoevsky and stuff. But he doesn't really say that much about the actual practice of therapy. Freud, in the course of his entire career, which was, he didn't start until he was in his mid-40s or something like that. e I estimate Freud maybe only saw somewhere between like 50 and 100 patients.
00:31:09
Donald Robertson
Because he saw most of them for two years, three years, four years. And he used to see them for five or six sessions a week. So he couldn't have seen very many. And of the clients he saw, probably most of them, or maybe at least half of them, were in training analysis with him.
00:31:28
Windy Dryden
one of the ah books that i'm currently got a contract for to be working on is is it's called the origins of single session therapy freud's Single sessions.
00:31:42
Windy Dryden
He's there are three examples of where he did single sessions.
00:31:44
Donald Robertson
right. Yeah.
00:31:46
Windy Dryden
One was one was with Katarina in the Alps where she kind of says, I understand you're a doctor, you know, can you help me?
00:31:51
Donald Robertson
Right. Yes.
00:31:55
Windy Dryden
ah One was with Mahler, Gustav Mahler, who kind of made and cancelled an appointment ah on three um ah about three occasions. And then, you know, Freud basically said, look, if you're not coming, that's it.
00:32:06
Donald Robertson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:32:11
Windy Dryden
You know, ah last chance. So he actually had a four hour session, single session walking ah ah in Leiden in Holland. And there's a um one case. i don't know if you've heard of this case. It's called the woman's called Margareta Lutz.
00:32:28
Windy Dryden
And yeah that case is really interesting because it's the only account that we've got of her of him doing a single session from the ah from the patient's point of view.
00:32:42
Windy Dryden
and somebody tracked her down 75 years after she had the session with Freud and she still can have a vivid memory and so um there was a ah particular um journal issue which was ah kind of based on the interview that they had with her and the so number of psychoanalysts kind of making a commentary on that so so i'm going to be doing a sort of an analysis of those three single sessions and
00:32:42
Donald Robertson
Wow.
00:32:47
Donald Robertson
Wow. Wow.
00:32:52
Donald Robertson
wow
00:33:12
Windy Dryden
and um you know see what happens as a result of that. So yeah, he may have...
00:33:16
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:33:17
Windy Dryden
um ah
00:33:18
Donald Robertson
So even Freud sometimes did single session.
00:33:21
Windy Dryden
Yeah, but you see again, if if but he never really brought back the insights from that to his everyday, as you say, long-term work.
00:33:32
Donald Robertson
Well, that's our segue into what is but you currently refer to as your single session so therapy approach.
Introduction to SST: A Client-Led Approach
00:33:41
Donald Robertson
ah Let's get into that.
00:33:41
Windy Dryden
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah well i mean i think that yeah there are examples of of of single session therapy you know dotted around the history of of psychotherapy but i think that you know for me the kind of the the ah landmark of the development of it was was from a um an israeli psychologist called moesha taumon
00:33:51
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:34:04
Windy Dryden
Now, Moshe Talman was an Israeli ah psychologist who had a long term private practice. And for for reasons which I don't know about, he decided to come to America and did um got a job at the Kaiser Permanente Clinic in Northern California.
00:34:26
Donald Robertson
uh
00:34:26
Windy Dryden
And was. I think specializes in children and family work, but he had he did an audit of his work and found after a while that 200 cases um had come once when they were expected to come more.
00:34:45
Windy Dryden
And so he was curious about this and was talking to his colleagues and said, you know, have you had this? He said, oh, yeah, we have this all the time. Our our our our clients are not very psychologically minded.
00:34:56
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:34:59
Windy Dryden
This is what we have to put up with. And he wasn't he wasn't, you know, convinced by that. So he actually. rang ah these 200 cases and found out that between 70 and 80 percent were quite happy with the one session that they had and didn't need any more.
00:35:17
Donald Robertson
right
00:35:18
Windy Dryden
And so that kind of gave gave impetus and to work that he did and Robert Rosenbaum and Michael Hoyt. So for me, and, you know, I think it kind of snowballed from there and and it's a beginning to be, you know, I mean, I've ah've spent the last 10 years doing training and writing in in this particular area.
00:35:32
Donald Robertson
Right. Uh-huh. Okay.
00:35:41
Windy Dryden
But the the the idea I define single session therapy is a um um purposeful endeavor. um ah which is based on an informed consent. In other words, a client needs to understand what they're consenting to and the therapist needs to agree that yeah they could offer of this. to To see if we can help the client to take away from the session what they've come for on the understanding that further help is important.
00:36:13
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:36:14
Windy Dryden
um available to them later on. So it's not one session, one session only. People say, tell me about your one and done, you know, one and dusted therapy and things like that.
00:36:25
Windy Dryden
Well, you know, it's not that. But you if you look at the statistics in in agencies, you know, the modal number of sessions that clients have is one.
00:36:29
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:36:35
Windy Dryden
you know
00:36:35
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:36:36
Windy Dryden
and And yet people are trained to kind of ah you know think of of therapy, understandably, as something which is going to last over time, sometimes over a considerable amount of time, others over a sort of shorter amount time, but certainly not just one session.
00:36:41
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:36:54
Donald Robertson
Yeah. So they are allowed to come back. by
00:36:57
Windy Dryden
If they want to.
00:36:58
Donald Robertson
right If they want to, right?
00:36:59
Windy Dryden
Right.
00:37:00
Donald Robertson
But they don't have to.
00:37:00
Windy Dryden
But you see, a lot of people, um as it's discovered, you know, normally the the idea is that you you offer people a block of six. Now, would say, why six? Why not five? Why not seven?
00:37:14
Windy Dryden
Nobody can answer that question. But for so for quite a lot of people, they don't want to come for six sessions.
00:37:18
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:37:20
Windy Dryden
It's too much for them.
00:37:20
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Yeah. So what type of clients do you think? there like ah is there ah a particular type of client or particular type of presenting problem that's most suited to the single session approach, do you think?
00:37:32
Windy Dryden
Well, I think that that that' ah I think we we know a lot about um single session therapy from what used to be called walk in clinics.
00:37:42
Donald Robertson
All right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:37:44
Windy Dryden
Now we used to be called walking clinics. Now we call them open access center now clinics because we don't want to be off putting to people who can't walk. So we call them open access into now services.
00:37:57
Windy Dryden
And people who come to those services can, you know, they they can come with a variety of of different issues. ah Some just want to you know, to get things off their chest.
00:38:09
Windy Dryden
A lot, you know, do have a problem that they would like to kind of walk away with some kind of solution which they can implement. Sometimes, you know, they just want to kind of, um you know, get a greater understanding.
00:38:16
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:38:21
Windy Dryden
So you've got ah you' got a multitude of but things that clients want. And I think you do need to be you know responsive to that. So, um but I would say probably most of the time clients are coming with a specific issue that they would like to have some help with and they don't want to kind of, you know, spend a lot of time in therapy.
00:38:44
Donald Robertson
So is there particular information? So I think one of the things that I saw you mention somewhere was that in many forms, perhaps most forms ah psychotherapy, traditionally, there's a lot of information gathering takes place at the beginning.
00:38:55
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:38:56
Donald Robertson
It could be sometimes in the NHS, it might be multiple sessions of assessment.
00:38:57
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:39:02
Donald Robertson
um and diagnosis. like But and so in the single session approach, you have you presumably have to be a lot more focused on gathering specific information. What's the information that you need to get from the client in order to work with them in that timeframe?
00:39:16
Windy Dryden
ah What you need to get is what they think you need to have.
00:39:21
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:39:21
Windy Dryden
So one of my favorite questions is, what do you think I need to know about you?
00:39:26
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:39:26
Windy Dryden
that if I didn't know, I wouldn't be able to help you today.
00:39:32
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:39:32
Windy Dryden
Right. So we don't i look. I'm not knocking ah you know a person, person assessment. I'm not knocking case history taking. I'm not knocking case formulation work.
00:39:46
Windy Dryden
But that's not going to help you too much doing single session work. This is this is this is more more like a traditional way of working.
00:39:57
Windy Dryden
And I think the core of the single session approach in a Donald is the mindset that the but clinicians and to some extent clients have.
00:40:04
Donald Robertson
Right. Yeah.
00:40:08
Windy Dryden
um And so one of the things that Talman talks about is that when they started do what what They call planned single session therapy because the 200 clients that he had were actually unplanned.
00:40:24
Windy Dryden
You know, they he thought that they were coming and they agreed to come.
00:40:25
Donald Robertson
and i
00:40:28
Windy Dryden
And then they only came once with unplanned. um
00:40:31
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:40:32
Windy Dryden
We ah we call these things dropouts, which I don't like the term dropout. So the idea is, is, is that, you know, you've got this sort of planned therapy.
00:40:42
Windy Dryden
um ah you got this planned approach and and um uh you know um you know let's see where we go it basically
00:40:43
Donald Robertson
Now,
00:40:54
Donald Robertson
yeah I'm just wondering, like I guess it would depend on the context and the way the clinic operates and stuff like that. But in single session work as you envisage it, is the preparatory work that the client does?
00:41:05
Windy Dryden
yes
00:41:06
Donald Robertson
That'd be one way of cutting down the time that you need in the session.
00:41:07
Windy Dryden
Right. Well, OK, so um i just I just remember what I was going to say. The group in this planned single session therapy, they started off by saying, look, we've got we've got this new way of working.
00:41:13
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:41:20
Windy Dryden
um This is what it is. Would you like to kind of, you know, to take advantage of it? And the one group that really didn't want to take advantage of that were therapists as clients.
00:41:32
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:41:35
Windy Dryden
Therapists as clients didn't want single.
00:41:35
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:41:37
Windy Dryden
And so, you know, when i when i when I first started training people in single session therapy, you know, get people like this, you know, you know really kind of folding their arms and saying, we don't want to be here.
00:41:39
Donald Robertson
ah
00:41:45
Donald Robertson
hu
00:41:51
Windy Dryden
You know, what's all this about, you know? But I think I think people are a lot more open about it now in after 10 years, luckily. So. So, um yeah.
00:41:59
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:42:00
Windy Dryden
So, I mean, the way I think of it is this. A session, Donald, from a single session therapy point of view, has three components.
00:42:06
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:42:12
Windy Dryden
One is the preparation.
00:42:13
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:42:15
Windy Dryden
And you're right. We encourage clients to think about what they want to talk about in advance. So we often encourage them to fill out a pre-session form, which helps them to to clarify.
00:42:26
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:42:28
Windy Dryden
And if they want to share it with us, then it helps us to be clued into what their thinking is. Then there's the conversation that they have. right And then there is an implementation phase after the conversation.
00:42:43
Windy Dryden
which where the the the client goes away uh puts into practice thinks about what they've learned puts into practice and then at that point makes a decision if they need another session or not
00:42:47
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:42:57
Donald Robertson
That's what i was going to ask you about is like the homework or as you call it the implementation stage.
00:43:01
Windy Dryden
yeah
00:43:02
Donald Robertson
Like how do you assign homework if you're not planning to see them again, but they keep in touch by email or whatever and you follow up.
00:43:08
Windy Dryden
No, not necessarily.
00:43:09
Donald Robertson
ah
00:43:09
Windy Dryden
Well, first of all, we don't think in terms of homework because homework is something specific.
00:43:13
Donald Robertson
Right. That's a terrible word, isn't it? Yeah.
00:43:16
Windy Dryden
Well, I mean, it's also it's not a terrible word. it's It's more like a specific task.
00:43:22
Donald Robertson
you know, I think it sounds a little bit patronising.
00:43:22
Windy Dryden
ah Whereas.
00:43:24
Donald Robertson
It reminds of being a schoolboy or something when people talk about it.
00:43:26
Windy Dryden
yeah, yeah. yeah
00:43:27
Donald Robertson
I always try to think there must be a better word.
00:43:28
Windy Dryden
We're talking about, you know, I think what we, you know, I think even in more traditional CBT now, they talk about takeaways, you know, what are you going to take away and put into practice?
00:43:36
Donald Robertson
All right.
00:43:38
Windy Dryden
And so we're talking about something a bit more broader that then clients might think about how they can start off that particular, you know, process. So I think the the idea is is is that because it's often strengths-based and you're really ah working, you know, in terms of,
00:43:46
Donald Robertson
Hmm.
00:43:57
Windy Dryden
ah helping people to say that actually they yeah they may have actually solved the problem before, but in a different context. And helping them to see that can actually help them to go forward now. So it's you know there's a lot of things that we of we tend to do in single session therapy, um which, you know, I would like to see.
00:44:18
Windy Dryden
so all therapies, that let's let's kind of, you know, see the client as resourceful.
00:44:20
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:44:23
Windy Dryden
Yes, they've got problems.
00:44:23
Donald Robertson
was going to ask you that.
00:44:25
Windy Dryden
Sorry?
00:44:26
Donald Robertson
Is there anything you've learned from doing single session therapy that changes your approach to ongoing therapy?
00:44:32
Windy Dryden
Yes, I'm I am much ah more open ah to saying to clients, you know, you come and book when you want to see me next.
00:44:43
Donald Robertson
Okay.
00:44:43
Windy Dryden
As opposed to the more more traditional, let's book you in, you know, and so there's there's none of this, you know, same time next week over the next unless the client wants that.
00:44:44
Donald Robertson
All right.
00:44:53
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:44:54
Windy Dryden
If the client, you know, and so the client might say, well, actually, I would like to book a number of sessions to see you.
00:44:55
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:45:01
Windy Dryden
And I say, fine. OK, let's take it on. ah You know, ah you may not need all of those things, but if you know, if it's useful for you to have them, that's fine. So, um you know, and it's it's probably in a way it's not a great way of running a private practice.
00:45:20
Windy Dryden
in terms of earning a living. But i think it's I think it's a real, you know, it really takes takes um seriously the idea of being client-led.
00:45:32
Donald Robertson
Yeah, i it's it's a very interesting question. I really believe that you know in order to develop psychotherapy, we need to experiment with different formats. Like, you know, it's probably just sort tradition and convenience that leads people to do things in the, you know, 50 minute sessions once a week or whatever.
00:45:49
Donald Robertson
But they, you know, what you said is spot on. There are economic interests that influence the way that psychotherapists work. I mean, especially in the, I remember seeing a psychoanalyst when I was first training and he told me quite candidly, if he loses one client because he sees them three or four times a week, that's a substantial drop in income.
00:46:07
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:46:08
Donald Robertson
for him. So he has admitted he a vested interest in his clients not leaving therapy.
00:46:13
Windy Dryden
That's right.
00:46:14
Donald Robertson
Right?
00:46:14
Windy Dryden
Yeah. And there was ah an interesting ah cover.
00:46:15
Donald Robertson
Which is...
00:46:18
Windy Dryden
I had it, so I don't have it here, but I've got it, i think, in my office. that The idea, it was a New york new Yorker ah cover. It was called The Prisoners of Psychotherapy, and they had this client that was sort of, you know, bound with rope so that they couldn't.
00:46:28
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:46:32
Donald Robertson
Chained to the Sheslong.
00:46:34
Windy Dryden
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:35
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Now, I wanted to kind of conclude by asking you a little bit about anger.
00:46:41
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:46:42
Donald Robertson
It's because it's one of my favorite subjects, right?
Personal Experiences with Anger and Stoicism
00:46:45
Donald Robertson
And it's big and so I want to mention, I think maybe I read your book and I vaguely remember you saying something similar yourself. But, you know, one of the reasons I'm interested in it, I was really angry when I was a young guy.
00:46:55
Donald Robertson
When I was a teenager, I distinctly remember thinking I'm just angry all the time.
00:46:58
Windy Dryden
yeah
00:47:01
Donald Robertson
You know, and it is almost in some ways a benefit of having a ah ah very pronounced problem is it motivates you to do something about it. I like many people. I reach the point where I just thought I'm sick of this.
00:47:14
Donald Robertson
i I need to do something about it. It's too much.
00:47:16
Windy Dryden
Yeah. Right.
00:47:17
Donald Robertson
And so in my twenty s gradually like just through really reflecting on it, I think, and questioning what was going on. And and then by reading the Stoics, you know, and reading other philosophers, I changed. And so now I, you know, I think I've got rid of most of that anger successfully over the years, but it made me want to help other people that have got similar issues.
00:47:41
Donald Robertson
And I see a lot of anger.
00:47:41
Windy Dryden
right
00:47:42
Donald Robertson
We see, you know, we're surrounded by anger on the internet. these days.
00:47:46
Windy Dryden
Oh, yeah.
00:47:46
Donald Robertson
um And it's, it's something that people come to me a lot and tell me they see as a rising social problem, particularly with young men is the way that journalists usually phrase it.
00:47:56
Windy Dryden
Interestingly enough, I think, think you know, Ray DiGiuseppe, who you probably know about, who's got a special interest in and anger, he he he makes a telling point that clients come to therapy for help with anxiety and depression, that but they come to therapy for supervision.
00:48:02
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:48:13
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:48:17
Windy Dryden
about anger how can i how can i change the other person you know so i mean the the it's it's very difficult to you know i think unless you spend some time really encouraging people to take responsibility for it for making themselves angry um then you really are you know uh walking up uphill in treacle when you're working with people
00:48:21
Donald Robertson
Yeah. yeah
00:48:45
Donald Robertson
It's also so relatively neglected. problem. I mean, you know I saw I read a book recently um where I think it was really just said he was had written the introduction of the foreword and he was saying the you know, he searched for the how much literature he could find on the subject of anger and psychotherapy and found that it was pretty negligible compared to the amount of literature on anxiety and depression.
00:49:11
Donald Robertson
Because like you say, I angry people think everyone else needs to go to therapy often.
00:49:11
Windy Dryden
I yeah
00:49:15
Windy Dryden
right yeah ah think you find a lot of it in the forensic psychiatry literature.
00:49:20
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:49:21
Windy Dryden
you know so you know if you've you know if you've sort of ah um you know killed somebody or or if you of
00:49:21
Donald Robertson
Yes.
00:49:30
Windy Dryden
um you know and so i think there's a there's a lot of literature in in and that but i mean i mean you're right this this idea of of um uh you know it's we tend to be you know quite angry and i think that you know but the more frustration there is in in society the more likely there's going to be anger um but um yeah i mean
00:49:57
Donald Robertson
and There's a kind of philosophical question that emerges and ah yeah I think you you take a particular stance on it in your in your book. I was going to mention, I think in some ways R-E-B-T is of interest to me because it's more philosophical in a sense than most other forms of psychotherapy.
00:50:11
Windy Dryden
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:50:13
Donald Robertson
um But so in ancient philosophy there was a debate with two sides in it. but between the Stoics on the one hand, who thought all anger is unhealthy, and traditionally the Aristotelians on the other side, who thought some anger could be healthy if it's moderate and justified.
00:50:35
Donald Robertson
And it was an interesting debate, right?
00:50:37
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:50:37
Donald Robertson
I think there's valid points kind of in and both sides. But ah I think the majority of people perceive anger as being healthy and moderately. But you you adopt the view that there's ah an REBT distinction that can be made between healthy and unhealthy anger. So what I'm really interested in is how do you distinguish one from the other?
00:50:59
Windy Dryden
but by looking at um not so much people's descriptions of how they feel, but what they do or what they feel like doing or how they think.
00:51:08
Donald Robertson
Yes.
00:51:09
Windy Dryden
And I think that's why see one of the things that I really go back to with Ellis and Ellis says that, you know, um we can't really look at emotion just by looking at emotion. We have to look at it.
00:51:24
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:51:25
Windy Dryden
at at within the kind of interdependence of thinking behavior and feeling and so if you take that stance um ah and so you know if you if you say to somebody for example i was angry you know they say i was angry and you said no is that healthy or unhealthy and you're saying well what did you do and they say ah didn't do anything
00:51:30
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:51:49
Windy Dryden
Right. And then you say, oh, well, that sounds, you know, like healthy. Then you ask the question, what did you feel like doing that you stopped yourself doing? And they said, I felt like tearing the guy's head off of his head and stamping off his head.
00:52:03
Windy Dryden
Well, that's pretty unhealthy anger good to me.
00:52:04
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:52:06
Windy Dryden
So, yeah you know, I don't think you can.
00:52:07
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:52:09
Windy Dryden
Well, you know, pretty sure you can't just make a distinction just on people's description of of how they feel. You have to look at how they think and behave, what they feel like doing this, you know, because because we're so like, you know, social animals, we kind of are able to, you know, to keep and our emotions in check.
00:52:18
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:52:22
Donald Robertson
Yes.
00:52:30
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:52:31
Windy Dryden
But if we gave rain to them and, um you know, yeah, that's so that's, I think, a good a good way of doing it.
00:52:32
Donald Robertson
Yes.
00:52:35
Donald Robertson
Yeah. It could be terrifying.
00:52:39
Windy Dryden
Yeah.
00:52:41
Donald Robertson
Well, maybe another way of saying the same thing is that I think the folk psychology, like the default assumption that many people have is that the difference between healthy and unhealthy anger would be the kind of level of intensity of the emotion like and And that doesn't make much sense because even a kind of low intensity simmering emotion might lead to quite a lot of unhealthy, passive aggressive behavior.
00:53:05
Donald Robertson
So that you say that has to be a difference more in terms of our thinking and our behavior that differentiate qualitative difference rather than a quantitative difference, right?
00:53:11
Windy Dryden
Well, now how yeah, um yeah.
00:53:15
Windy Dryden
Yeah, and I think I go back to, you know, there's there's some dispute whether he actually said it or not.
00:53:16
Donald Robertson
right
00:53:22
Windy Dryden
Voltaire's famous phrase, you know, sir, detest what you do, but I'll defend to the death your right to do it.
00:53:26
Donald Robertson
Thank you.
00:53:32
Windy Dryden
um So, I mean, you know, could you imagine, for example, Martin Luther King saying to him, look, yeah, you know, you know, Don't be so angry about it. you He had a and Gandhi, you know, I think had a healthy anger and Martin Luther King because, you know, they were right. You know, they they saw an injustice that they really wanted to you know to do. But they they were able to temper it with with planning.
00:54:01
Donald Robertson
ah
00:54:01
Windy Dryden
and i think that in in a way um you know i talk i don't know if you remember in my introduction to my anger book talked about a situation whereby i was tearing down you know the road in a car trying to get somebody who you know that's not healthy
00:54:18
Donald Robertson
Yes, ah remember. Oh, I'll tell you why I remember. Because you said it was in Scotland.
00:54:25
Windy Dryden
yes it was in scotland yeah
00:54:26
Donald Robertson
yeah i was reading this book and i think he's really angry maybe with a Scottish guy. This is exactly.
00:54:30
Windy Dryden
yeah i don't I don't know whether the guy was Scottish because I never caught it.
00:54:33
Donald Robertson
don't know for sure. Yeah, you didn't catch him. Okay, well, let me play, I suppose, a little bit of devil's advocate for a minute.
Understanding and Managing Anger
00:54:42
Donald Robertson
f If you take unhealthy anger and you swap out the rigid must statement for a flexible preference,
00:54:52
Windy Dryden
yeah
00:54:53
Donald Robertson
And you take away the awfulizing and you replace that with a more flexible, moderate attitude that says, OK, this is bad, but it's not the end of the world. And you take out the I can't stand it, itis and the the vilification or the devaluation in absolute terms of the other person.
00:55:09
Windy Dryden
the person yeah yeah
00:55:10
Donald Robertson
So you teach it let's say you change all of those cognitions, right? And the action tendencies are are no longer overtly aggressive.
00:55:16
Windy Dryden
yeah yeah yeah because because because you still because you've got you've still got the you
00:55:18
Donald Robertson
Is it possible that you might have defined the anger? Is it still, is that still anger?
00:55:24
Donald Robertson
What makes that anger?
00:55:31
Windy Dryden
you can't take out those things without having something in place you know so what's in place is flexible attitudes um non-authorizing attitudes what i call attitudes of bearability not unbearability and accepting the person but really disliking what the person's done so you've got if you put all those in you've still got anger but i would argue that's healthy anger
00:55:35
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:55:52
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:56:00
Donald Robertson
I just wonder if you're thinking, you know, what you did really sucks, but it's not the end of the world. And, you know, I'd really prefer it if you didn't. Like, you know, but that doesn't have to be the case.
00:56:12
Donald Robertson
Then as seems to me, can imagine ah kind of, I don't know if I call it anger anymore. Like, even if your blood pressure was high.
00:56:18
Windy Dryden
Well, it depends upon what the adversity is.
00:56:20
Donald Robertson
Maybe,
00:56:20
Windy Dryden
it depends upon, you know, how important the adversity is.
00:56:23
Donald Robertson
maybe it depends.
00:56:25
Windy Dryden
If, you know, again, if you look at some of the examples of of of people who feel strongly angry, but in a healthy way, you know Martin Luther King, you know, you're not going to.
00:56:35
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:56:36
Windy Dryden
You're not going to kind of um you see, I think in your description, you've got almost in there that you're kind of minimizing the the level of the adversity.
00:56:46
Donald Robertson
Right.
00:56:47
Windy Dryden
think you keep the adversity in there as ah something that really, really kind of negative.
00:56:50
Donald Robertson
Really bad.
00:56:52
Windy Dryden
Yeah. um And you yeah I mean, the in it it look, I mean, the point is. That takes, it's a bit like the the black belt, you talk about Quran, the black belt of handling, you know, um ah ah an anger related adversity in that way.
00:57:09
Donald Robertson
um,
00:57:09
Windy Dryden
I mean, I'm pretty sure I couldn't do it yet. I mean, I'm, you know, far, I'm far more advanced than that when I was hurting down the road in Scotland all those years ago.
00:57:21
Windy Dryden
But, i you know, I mean, I noticed that, you know, and I don't know to what extent you would you go along with that. I mean, um you know, I ah find it difficult to get depressed.
00:57:32
Windy Dryden
and anxiety but I find it very easy to get angry is that I don't know what it is it's that kind of that tendency in me which my father had and his brother had and my grandfather on my father's side that's almost like quick that quick yeah you know and so some people are quite a quick to anger and you have to really I have to kind of you know think about well I'm going into the situation this is my vulnerability point I need to I need to prepare myself for it you know
00:57:44
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:57:50
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:58:02
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Well, I thought a good place to conclude if you if you could, I'm sure you have an answer for this, but what's sir simple takeaway, as it were? What do you think is simple takeaway?
00:58:14
Donald Robertson
piece of advice that you could give to listeners if they are having problems with their anger. like There are many things that our ABT might recommend to them. on But what's something that you think you could a explain to them in ah in ah and a few minutes?
00:58:30
Windy Dryden
OK, acknowledge it. um Take responsibility for it. Don't hate yourself for it.
00:58:35
Donald Robertson
Yeah.
00:58:36
Windy Dryden
and And then really, if you're going to do one thing, ask yourself the question, as Alice said, what am I demanding? What am I insisting has to be or mustn't be?
00:58:46
Donald Robertson
Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:50
Windy Dryden
and then then really see if you can develop some flexible mindset in case, which me really means saying, look, I really don't like this, but sadly and regretfully, it doesn't have to be the way I want it to be because this is not the planet Dryden or Robertson. It's the planet Earth.
00:59:10
Windy Dryden
And I often, you know, kind of use that phrase.
00:59:15
Donald Robertson
yeah
00:59:16
Windy Dryden
If it's the planet Dryden and Robertson, we could organize it so that we don't get adversities. But on the planet Earth, we can't.
00:59:24
Donald Robertson
but have to We have to deal with adversities. And you I think what you're also describing at some level is just simply taking more ownership for their anger.
00:59:33
Windy Dryden
Ownership, I think, you know, is so important with anger.
00:59:37
Donald Robertson
ah How do you take ownership is partly by recognizing the underlying demands that are making you feel angry.
00:59:43
Windy Dryden
yeah yeah exactly exactly yeah that's right
00:59:47
Donald Robertson
Well, thank you very much, Wendy. It's been ah it's been a joy speaking to you. you know it's ah It's actually bit treat for me because I'm a bit of a nerd about with psychotherapy, um as Ellis was, and I think as as you are perhaps to some extent.
01:00:01
Donald Robertson
So it's great to have a chat.
01:00:01
Windy Dryden
and i wanted to ask you donald it sounds like you're thinking of writing a book on anger yourself is that correct
01:00:03
Donald Robertson
ah
01:00:06
Donald Robertson
I was thinking about writing a book about anger because I want to look at what the Stoics say and kind of compare it to what modern research says and what's he doing.
01:00:13
Windy Dryden
I would definitely encourage you to do that.
01:00:16
Donald Robertson
Yeah, I wanted to do it. If it was the last book I ever wrote, I thought to myself, what would I want to write about? And I thought, well, I'd like to write about anger because I feel, yeah you know, I think many people in life reach a point where they think, you know what I i'd find really fulfilling would be to help, feel like I'm helping people who had the problems that I had when I was a young guy.
01:00:37
Donald Robertson
You know, and I thought, I always remember when I was young, guy I was really angry. And if I felt I was helping people that were like young Donald, that would be particularly gratifying to me. So I've always wanted to get around to tackling this problem.
01:00:48
Windy Dryden
I think, yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's that's right. And that's, um you know, what a lot of people kind of do, isn't it? That they kind of, um that's the wounded healer in you.
01:01:00
Windy Dryden
You want to kind of, you know, not only heal yourself, but heal others in terms of, you know, what you've experienced.
01:01:01
Donald Robertson
Yeah. window this kill
01:01:06
Windy Dryden
So go, i look forward to seeing it.
01:01:11
Donald Robertson
ah Well, hopefully hopefully we get a chart a chance to chat a bit more about
Conclusion and Gratitude
01:01:14
Donald Robertson
it. Maybe we'll talk a bit more about stoicism at some point.
01:01:14
Windy Dryden
Right.
01:01:17
Windy Dryden
Right.
01:01:17
Donald Robertson
Anyway, it's been ah another great discussion. Thank you so much for joining me, Wendy. I know you're a busy guy.
01:01:22
Windy Dryden
my my pleasure
01:01:22
Donald Robertson
um We hope that you listeners enjoyed the conversation as much as we did. Please share the link with your friends and subscribe to the Stoicism Philosophy is a Way of Life newsletter and Substack for more podcasts and articles on philosophy and psychology. So thanks for listening. saying It's goodbye from me, Donald Robertson, and from my guest, Wendy Dryden.
01:01:40
Windy Dryden
it's been a joy uh
01:01:42
Donald Robertson
Thanks. Bye, everyone.