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Illinois and Chief Illiniwek
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A discussion of the issues surrounding the 2007 removal of Chief Illiniwek with Breelyn Fay AKA Princess Illiniwek. Her thoughts and insights into native American imagery in sports.
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Transcript
Introduction and Show Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
This is Gateway Sports. Hey there, folks. Welcome to Talking Sports with Uncle Don. ah look at the day's sports issues and news stories from the Gateway City and across the Midwest.
00:00:17
Speaker
Let's talk some sports.
Sports Commentary and Highlights
00:00:19
Speaker
The rumors are true.
00:00:25
Speaker
You've got to get it done.
00:00:34
Speaker
with the widespread stance, arms out over the plate. Beckberg from the stretch. The 1-1-2. A swing, and there it goes! Jeff Fields, way back!
00:00:47
Speaker
That's all-around number 7-1. Kuhl's hits a three-run homer, and he hits 699 and 700 at Stoucher Stadium on September 23, 2022.
00:01:06
Speaker
Packers crowd behind the scrimmage, Romo on the shotgun, here's the snap, Romo looking, dumps it off right side, intercepted! Intercepted at the goal line by Woodson! And there is your dagger!
00:01:23
Speaker
Badgers have no timeouts, they can't stop it. McCourt for the win, in the air, it is up, and it is good!
00:01:35
Speaker
Good! Upset! Upset in Champaign!
00:01:49
Speaker
The Illini win it 24-23! I want my ball! I want my ball! You tell ball that! I'm coming after him! get like it stop me You good out there you
00:02:10
Speaker
Playoffs? Don't talk about playoffs. You kidding Playoffs?
00:02:26
Speaker
Hey, Dad? You want to have a catch?
00:02:38
Speaker
I'd like that. Bye.
Gateway Sports Network Promotion
00:02:44
Speaker
Welcome to Talking Sports with Uncle Don. I'm glad you tuned in today. I have a special program for you guys today. I have a guest I've been winning it all for quite some time now, and we'll get to her in just a minute. But first I want to say Talking Sports on the Bleacher... talk Excuse me. That's the old show. This is the new show.
00:02:59
Speaker
Talking Sports with Uncle Don is a proud part of the Gateway Sports Network. Check out Gateway Sports for your news and podcast on anything in and around the bi-state area of St. Louis. From pro to college, Gateway Sports is the place to go. Check it out. Gatewaysports.com.
00:03:15
Speaker
Okay, a little diversion from what we normally do
Introduction to Breland Faye
00:03:17
Speaker
on this show. As you probably, by now, most of you know, or you should know, and if you don't know, you just haven't been paying attention. I'm a big Illini fan. And so, one of the saddest days I've had as being an Illini fan was the removal of Chief Illini back in 2007.
00:03:34
Speaker
And how all that came about, controversy behind it. And all that kind of good stuff. ah So today, my guest is going to talk a little bit about that.
00:03:45
Speaker
She's a native of Akron, Ohio, lived in Illinois since 2002. She is a Shawnee and Monocan. I did pronounce that right. Monocan? Monocan, yeah. Monocan. Descent with that. She puts it a little bit of Cherokee.
00:03:59
Speaker
Uh, she's a former U S army combat medic. She's active in community theaters and has a deep interest and passion in native American imagery and sports and schools. She's known to Illini fans as princess Illini, Wic Breland Faye.
Breland's Cultural and Personal Background
00:04:13
Speaker
Welcome to the show Breland. And thank you for your service. Oh, thank you for your support. And thank you for having me. Okay. Uh, so you grew up in Ohio. So, and you said, as you mentioned, you are a fan of the Cleveland Indians.
00:04:25
Speaker
Uh, we won't hold, we won't hold that against you. I know you guys whooped us. i'm a car I'm a Cardinal fan myself. So, you know, hey fair enough. I don't despise the Cub people. I'm a Cardinal fan.
00:04:38
Speaker
But anyway, so, but, but you grew up in and in in Cleveland or in Akron. um What about your early life? um Did you, I mean, was it was the Native American interest peaked early in your life?
00:04:55
Speaker
um it was It was told from to me and my sisters from ah very, very early age. ah mom I don't know that my mom... I know my mom was of mixed blood, but she never once referred to herself as white or or anything like that. She lived her life fully as Native American, and she stressed the importance to us of keeping that alive. It was...
00:05:23
Speaker
it was um but as my mother was native, my, my father was Czechoslovakian, just here down the line, Czechoslovakian. And it was, it was almost like a war in, in my, my home. Uh, when I was little, it was my mom saying a lot of, uh, what the white man had done and the white man had taken from us. And i don't know if that was, uh, my father's direct response or just, uh,
00:05:49
Speaker
whatever's going on in his head, but he always referred to me and, uh, mother and and sisters as you people, um, quite a bit. Like, uh, I thought you people never left a trace, you know, when we left our rooms dirty or you people could talk to animals or you people could make this plant grow. I'm like, Whoa, you know? And, and to me that was, that was the norm growing up, you know? And, and then I, and, uh, attended Catholic school where things were not better. Yeah.
00:06:19
Speaker
Maybe the less said about that, the better. um So I ah really grew up divided and seeing this divide everywhere. You know, it might, know, I don't know. It was it was it was very warring within my household growing up. You know, there was Catholicism and then there was the the cultural beliefs that my mother had. And and they're very hard to marry.
00:06:43
Speaker
You know, to me, you know, other other natives have both um spiritual and religious ah that they can marry together and.
00:06:56
Speaker
and Harmonize with and I found that very hard. I did find that very hard. So from from a young age, I was very, very much into ah Native imagery and what my mom had to teach.
00:07:09
Speaker
Okay.
Controversy over Native American Imagery in Sports
00:07:10
Speaker
Now, you were well aware. You moved to Illinois ah back in 2002. So by that time, the descent, if you will, toward Native American imagery in sports ah was was boiling. it was it was It was on a slow boil at that point in time.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you had people up upset about the ah ah the Atlanta Braves, the Cleveland Indians, the Washington Redskins, you all these sports names and and and teams that ah people grew up with for decades.
00:07:45
Speaker
And now all of a sudden there's this, oh, which is this is a bad thing. And um I know from personal experience, I was in Oklahoma right about the time this whole thing was happening.
00:07:58
Speaker
hitting hitting its flashpoint. And I was talking to a gentleman there who was ah who he was ah i was at ah ah but was that a party and his he was the and he was I can't remember what tribe he was part of, but I was talking and I said, I got a question for you.
00:08:19
Speaker
And I asked him quite specifically if he had seen ah Chief Alina Weck or anything of that nature. And he said he had. And I said, okay, what do you think? Is this something that needs to be removed? Are we ah are we as sports fans missing the point?
00:08:37
Speaker
Yeah. And he said, not at all. He said to me, if, and i'm I'm paraphrasing, obviously, this was number of years ago, but he said he said to me, if there is someone out there representing what our customs were, what our, and he didn't call it spiritual, but but you beliefs and stuff like that.
00:09:05
Speaker
He said, there's someone out there that can represent that. He said, i I welcome that. I want to see more of it. He I don't want to see it sterilized.
00:09:16
Speaker
ah So his, and and you you still see it today, Chief Osceola with the Florida with the florida State. yeah um And I'll tell you what, I don't know of any other real stirring pregame tradition and having him come out and, you know, throw that, uh, coming out on the horse, throwing the flaming spirit in the middle of the field.
00:09:40
Speaker
I mean, so awesome what that does to just, I mean, just the fan base itself. And it's just, I can't believe people that think that this is making fun of a, a people or a culture. What's your feeling on that?
00:09:56
Speaker
Um, well, I've, I've been an athlete, um, When I was a young teen, I i played softball. And then in my 20s, I did a full contact ah medieval reenactment. It's like a foam sword fighting.
00:10:10
Speaker
I mean, you're full on hitting people, though. So it's very active. And then I moved into disc golf. So I've always kind of been a sporty, athletic kind of person. And so I always saw it as, yeah, that's me, man.
00:10:24
Speaker
that's I'm going to kick your butt. That's what's going to happen, you know, so I found it very accurate for me. I never thought anybody, ah even with the Cleveland Indians, i I never really thought, oh, well, they're they're making fun of us.
00:10:41
Speaker
it It was an odd choice. But then I grew up watching Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd and and all that. I'm just like, well... i I don't see my dad up in arms about Elmer Fudd.
00:10:52
Speaker
You know, I don't, I don't see my mom or my grandfather. um He was a World War II veteran. and I didn't get to know him, you know, as long as I'd like, you know, would have liked to, but um it was his favorite team.
00:11:03
Speaker
He loved it, you know, so i didn't see anything wrong with it, but other people were, you know, and when this controversy started coming about, i would have people come up to me and say,
00:11:16
Speaker
don't you find that offensive? Don't you find like right in my face, like, whoa, how about um do you or you know, what are your thoughts? But they were phrasing their questions in such a way that it was like they were forcing their opinion on me.
00:11:31
Speaker
And, and I wondered where that came from, you know, and and come to find out it's ah's a it's been going on since the ninety s this survey of survey of ah of, uh, princesses and, and, uh, I forget the name now ah by Stephanie Freiberg, where she, she did a survey on a reservation of three, three schools for which the participants were, were paid in pizza and pop.
00:11:54
Speaker
And i read over that exact survey and it was leading right at the top. It was like, we aim to change how native Americans are viewed in popular culture. And then she took this survey and like parlayed it into this PhD paper, which has been quoted Thousands and thousands of times saying hey the this does harm to Native Americans I'm like don't remember being asked about this or anybody I know it was just kind of this sweeping thing that just kept growing like if if you lie enough and Repeat it it it becomes the truth and I'm so I started digging into it and finding Hey, no, not everybody feels this way. I'm not alone and I found
00:12:36
Speaker
Thousands more that that feel the same way I do. Yeah. Well, I mean, and and you look at it down the down the line, so to speak. And I kind of recently we heard we I hope I think you've heard of the ah ah the family of the gentleman who was the model or the picture or model for the ah the a helmet emblem for the Washington Redskins.
00:13:06
Speaker
Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. And I guess they are completely up in arms. They ah really would like to see his image put back on the helmet and the name Redskins put back on the team.
00:13:20
Speaker
Oh, most definitely. I i know the ah the grandson of that family. You know, I've been speaking with him. And yes, they want that family and cultural tradition carried on.
00:13:34
Speaker
um excuse me And I noticed also years and years ago, right? I mean, right either right before or right after Illinois does um
00:13:45
Speaker
dismissed the chief, excuse me there was a ah college up Wisconsin area, Michigan area. um And i I don't know that. They had a a Native American nickname.
00:14:01
Speaker
They changed it And the students actually revolted enough. They had to change it back. They forced them to change it back. ah Why are we getting such a mixed signal on all this?
00:14:16
Speaker
but what What do you think? um it's It's been often said, and um if you get 10 people in a room, They're not going to all agree on something. And the same is is true for Native Americans. You get 10 Native Americans in the same room. They're not going to agree on it.
00:14:32
Speaker
And we have 579 federally recognized tribes. There's no way there's going to be one consensus amongst all of them. And ah They're the infighting amongst natives and ah on this subject and how vicious it gets is just like every other race There's been death threats. There's been threats to schools You know if one tribe wants to support something and another tribe finds out about it and they're dead set against it They will threaten each other and and I've seen the emails and it's like I don't know it's it's like if you're offended
00:15:12
Speaker
by something, you you can only take offense. You know, that that's that's the action of the person that's offended. You know, i there are a great many things that offend me um that other people, it doesn't offend them.
00:15:27
Speaker
You know, so I don't involve myself in those things because those are triggers for me. So if this is a trigger for somebody, I feel like they can just internalize, you know, or
00:15:42
Speaker
center themselves with their feelings and be, and be logical about it. Like, Hey, these people have every right to do this. You know, maybe I should find out why dig down and find out why, because right now everybody just ah the everybody. And it when I say everybody, i mean the, the opposition, they, they just assume they, they look and they assume right away.
00:16:05
Speaker
and oh it's racist. Oh, it's this. Like what part of it, What exact part of it? Oh, well, this and the people have been this. I'm like, no, what part of what I'm doing is racist? What exact part?
00:16:19
Speaker
Because I crafted Princess Elina Wick as an homage, but also there's very unique details in there that that I have, I put on the the Facebook page and explained that I wanted more meaning, you know, and education and that that started with the, um,
00:16:38
Speaker
the armbands that I wear. i wear the names of every tribe that ever lived in Illinois. On the left one, I wear the names of the Illiniwik tribe.
00:16:50
Speaker
I have three stripes on the the three blue stripes on the right one, three or one on the left one for the three and one. um i wear two braids in my right braid. I wear a lock of my late mother's hair in my left. I wear a lock of my daughter's hair because our ancestors are always with us. Our children are always watching us.
00:17:12
Speaker
i I chose a headdress in four colors to represent the colors of the medicine wheel. and always step off on my left foot to honor military service, the veterans, the people came before, the people who serve now, the people who will serve.
Chief Illiniwek Tradition and Symbolism
00:17:30
Speaker
And on, as you can't really see, but on the moccasins, I have burned the initials. on my right foot of every chief that came before me, and then the ones that were unofficial starting on the left foot. so i wanted I wanted this to be very symbolic, you know, and still not owned by anyone, you know, just to be a servant to the community because that's what a chief should be. A chief should be serving the people.
00:17:58
Speaker
That's how you lead, you serve.
00:18:01
Speaker
Sorry, I went off on a tangent there. that No, that's quite all right. That that that was actually perfect and kind of led me into the next couple of questions, really. um Now, oh, the last three or four years, there's been a gentleman, or actually maybe a little bit before that, there was a gentleman that's, um he doesn't make a big deal out of it.
00:18:25
Speaker
He shows up usually in the student's end zone or sometimes in the horseshoe. And we'll just stand there with his arms folded and he's in full regalia. Have you seen this? Have you seen this gentleman?
00:18:39
Speaker
And do you know who he is? or
00:18:44
Speaker
Are you sure it's not me? No, this is this. is This has been this is I know this this has been a few years ago. before Before I came. I think it was before you yeah you started your your your your gig there. ah But okay because I started in 2023.
00:19:00
Speaker
Yeah, I think he was he's been – doesn't show up at every game. He just picks a few – one or two games here, and I know he was at – he's been at a couple like the homecoming games.
00:19:11
Speaker
And like said, he doesn't – and nobody really knows. Nobody pays attention to him to a certain extent. I mean, yeah the TVs don't focus on him anything. But I've seen the pictures, and they you get a couple people that will post it on Facebook.
00:19:25
Speaker
uh you know chief of line of work is in the stands and here's his jet now and like said he's he's not making any motions he's just like this and he just stands there and he'll sometimes it'll come at halftime right in the middle of the three and one and he'll just stand there like this in the stands and they'll walk off you know no no big pronouncements no big oh this or nothing like that he just he stands there and then after this after it's over he he'll he'll he'll move off and am nothing and nobody ever knows is i don't know i just and just wondered if you'd ever seen this gentleman Yeah, no, i ah there were two of them that did that before me. um It was, a well, actually three, ah Logan Ponce, who started right after dan Maloney, then Ivan Alex Dozier.
00:20:10
Speaker
ah wait, and then there was Bennett Camp. I never i never met him. but um And then there was Omar Cruz. And then that took us to, um it was kind of fading out about...
00:20:24
Speaker
2021, end of 2021 through 2022, and um nobody seemed to be able to or want to step up because of um other incidences that had occurred with the opposition um that made you know national news here and there.
00:20:42
Speaker
yeah um i'm not. i I'm not. And I'm willing to risk whatever to keep the almost hundred year old tradition going.
00:20:57
Speaker
It's important. It's important. Like I know how to stress how important this is. Well, just to give people a little bit that that may not know, just to give people a little bit of background.
00:21:11
Speaker
ah The chief was started in 1926 by Lester G. Lutweiler. um And but as I, as I remember the story, he,
00:21:22
Speaker
got the idea for the dance from Boy Scouts who had attended a Native American powwow or display or something they were taught the dance.
00:21:37
Speaker
The Boy Scouts had been very strong. And then he learned it from the Boy Scouts and then he brought it to life at the University Illinois and don't know how many 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,
00:21:55
Speaker
yeah why how many 41 if you 41 yes thank you well okay 41 if you 40 chiefs counting you and actually well actually 39 chiefs and one of you are the second princess elina wick very true the first one was adele smith back in 1943 uh during the war years you know uh but but uh yeah so that there's been 40 some odd people that that have uh assumed this moniker And, you know, like I said, growing up to me, you know, that was i and I'm not Native American, at least as far as I know, I'm not.
00:22:37
Speaker
I haven't checked my lineage at all. ah I do know i do know um' um I've got some Irish and German in me, but outside of that, I got no clue. um But you know that always kind of filled me with a special kind of of of of feeling of pride, of of of calmness, of you know some type of of a ah serenity, as well as getting me fired up for the next half of the of the contest, whether there was basketball or football.
00:23:05
Speaker
um And I noticed that I've seen some interviews with other chiefs, past chiefs, who've said that um they, you know, that was what they really enjoyed the most was the the recognition from the fans and knowing that they did that job. and And um I loved Maloney's tribute on the final dance.
00:23:32
Speaker
Very much. walks off dozen about face i mean that was just very powerful very powerful i still kind of get a little bit you know i see that every now and again that somebody will pop it up on facebook and i still kind of get little teary-eyed about it now and again uh right what did that do for you i've never seen it and it really yes i'll send it to you I mean, I've seen it on video.
00:24:01
Speaker
I've never seen it live. Oh, I didn't see live either. I saw it on video as well. I didn't it live either. Yeah, I've seen it on video and I've seen smaller performance of it inside. It's not the same as what I've been told.
00:24:16
Speaker
i can only imagine what it would be like in a stadium being revered like it was. um that That drives people crazy that i've I've never seen it. I didn't even really know a person play the chief until 2017. Yeah, i was in the dark.
00:24:34
Speaker
ah I was intentionally kept in the dark, but, you know, things are what they are. um And then i had um this was after after my mother passed. And just ah two weeks after my dad passed in 2017 was the homecoming parade.
00:24:51
Speaker
I don't know how well you remember that, but it was a a fair fiasco. um i i do remember the hubbub about it, yes. I was in the middle of that.
00:25:02
Speaker
That was kind of my introduction to how people felt about the chief. And I was just like, wow, you people are crazy. Like, what are you doing? i'm I'm native. I'm trying to honor my mother. I'm trying to like get in in touch with this symbol. And there were just all these people elbowing and, and bullhorns in people's faces. And then like the chancellor didn't want to hold anyone accountable.
00:25:27
Speaker
And so, um i was I was rightly ticked about this. um And so I went to the next student council meeting and spoke my mind and showed them my bruises and they laughed at me.
00:25:43
Speaker
ah So i went back darn near every week for the next year giving a speech. every every public comment until they passed some kind of resolution that kept me from and being able to speak anymore. So I started speaking um and going to teacher sentence meetings, and then they took a vote on my right to speak, and I won it by one vote, and then thought, I probably shouldn't press my left like that anymore. so I started speaking to the board of trustees.
00:26:17
Speaker
um It was very frustrating because like nobody ever got back to me. Nobody wanted to have a ah ah conversation. I mean, I was i was angry. and Nobody was held accountable. I was i was bruised up.
00:26:29
Speaker
ah People were laughing about it, like, oh, well, you're a racist. I'm like, you've come at me and not explained a dang thing, and you're accusing these other people, so I'm going to go find out what's going on for myself.
00:26:44
Speaker
And I found so much of the information was gatekept. You know, it was hard for me to even find the history and i had to go digging hard into the U of archives to find the history ah of of the Native imagery through the U of And then um pairing up with the Honor of the Chief Society, I got to hear the story of the second chief um who felt that, along with members of the community, um that the original ah outfit
00:27:20
Speaker
that the first chief chose, um, wasn't, wasn't dignified enough. So, uh, the, the second chief, uh, Borchus, I think his name was, um, I had it. Yes. mor Yeah. Well, Weber Borchus.
00:27:35
Speaker
Thank you. No problem. Um, hitchhiked, hitchhiked to South Dakota in the middle of the great depression to purchase, uh, uh, what they call the war suit,
00:27:48
Speaker
ah that's what it was referred to in the article that I was reading um and learn a, an actual authentic dance to bring back and bestow upon the chief.
00:27:59
Speaker
And things are great. Things sort were going great. Everything was going great until 1950, 51. A chief named William Hug, who was also a dance major. And from what I've read of his life, an amazing choreographer and teacher,
00:28:16
Speaker
um Decided to expand the dance ah to include the um b split at the end and bigger movements because but historically the the stadium ah up and up through the war wasn't drawing crowds. they They weren't drawing the big crowds that they could hold.
00:28:36
Speaker
Then after the war and into the 50s where, you know, everything became fantastic, fantastic and amazing. And, you know, we were usa number one and everything.
00:28:46
Speaker
the the crowds came back and they couldn't see the dance anymore. it was It was just one guy in the field. you know Now we have the advantages of the jumbotrons and we can zoom in and everything, but then they had to flare up the dance, which you know it made it non-authentic anymore.
00:29:07
Speaker
But after Chief Fools Crow came and presented the regalia, he saw the dance and I believe what he said, it had a lot of body English is what it was loosely translated as, but he understood the need to to see it.
00:29:24
Speaker
So it's it's it's been a long journey, but it it was rooted in authenticity. And that's what I think people are missing, that if if this was rooted in racism, it wouldn't still be here.
00:29:38
Speaker
People wouldn't be, you know, Saying honor, integrity, courage, veracity, you know, all these positive, wonderful words that you want to live your life by in association with a racist symbol. Nobody says those words, you know, ah talking about a swastika or or ah a KKK hood. Nobody uses those words, honesty and trustworthy and those kinds of words. But you do use them for a Native American symbol, a chief symbol, which is also a warrior symbol.
00:30:11
Speaker
we're still here. We're fighters. I mean, that's just the proof of our existence shows that we have warrior blood, you know? And so why would anybody ever want to be ashamed of that?
00:30:23
Speaker
do Do you think, um, and, and this is kind of a broader sense, now not just the university of Illinois, but do you think that this discussion has been, um,
00:30:36
Speaker
um I think I'm probably going to think I'm going to know your answer, but ah do you think just this discussion that has been carried out over a number of different franchises and schools and tribes and and political and social aspects, has it been properly moderated so that all points get the get their get their chance at being viewed No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. um I traveled with NAGA, the Native American Guardians Association, for a little while.
00:31:09
Speaker
And there were three, at least three places we went where um even though the moderators perhaps wanted to do the best job they could, there were the opposition would just yell over us or become angry ands searcht screaming or and just they're very angry.
00:31:30
Speaker
they they're very angry They're very angry and, and, but they are calling us hate filled. And so that just boggles the mind. Um, but no, I don't feel, um a lot of them have been moderated properly because they, they just go with what sensationalist, which is guts and feelings and, you know, which is kind of the whole fighting spirit that the symbol represents in the first place.
00:31:59
Speaker
So ironic. Um, and There's also there was also a ah place ah in Idaho where were we were having our our turn and these the the other the opposition, a number of Native American people like crashed it or you know whatever and started yelling at us from the the audience and then just came up on the stage and took our microphones.
00:32:22
Speaker
And I'm just like, wow, this is this is happening. And I'm just going to sit here, you know, and just stand, there you know, sit there and and hear what they had to say and they're just they' were just screaming and and one of them I distinctly remember said, you know, you have ah you have the statue of the the buffalo in the town, don't you make that damn thing the the mascot?
00:32:42
Speaker
And the next day I was reading in the paper and they spun it like like she was up there pleading with her tears in her eyes to to stop making fun of her and use something like the noble buffalo and I'm like,
00:32:58
Speaker
were we at the same event? What is this? Like, I, we tried talking in the newspaper, they wouldn't take our calls or return our emails. I'm like, wow, wow. Like, wow. That was, that was, that was an eye opener for me.
00:33:16
Speaker
It really was. I'm like, the media can do whatever they want and not have to be held
Hydration Talk and Product Promotion
00:33:23
Speaker
accountable. i don't know how true that is for, for big media, but like,
00:33:27
Speaker
these hometown little medias, you know, the newspapers, they can spin anything any way they want. And it's frightening. It is is frightening to be to be truthful. and I 100% agree. yeah So I want to get to a little bit more into this here in a few minutes. Right now, though, I need to do a little business, and that business is hydration.
00:33:51
Speaker
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00:34:06
Speaker
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00:34:27
Speaker
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00:35:22
Speaker
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00:35:44
Speaker
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00:36:00
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00:36:14
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00:36:44
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00:37:01
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00:37:19
Speaker
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00:37:34
Speaker
All right. Thank you so much. All right. We're back. We're we're back with Breland Faye. I use Liquid IV. You do? Oh, well, great. I do. I love Start using my code. I need the money.
00:37:46
Speaker
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00:37:59
Speaker
Like as soon as you started talking, I was like, oh, it is no fun going to the hospital for dehydration. Been there a couple times for that. That's not something I like to do. ah But anyway, ah so getting back to what we were talking about with the, with the native American, native American imagery.
Debate on Chief Illiniwek's Role
00:38:16
Speaker
and sports. And a lot of people, they were down on the chief, at least at the time, down on the chief because they claimed him being a mascot.
00:38:30
Speaker
Now, to me, a mascot, you wear the big paper mache head, you wear the big inflatable bodysuit and you walk around and you look like an idiot. me That's not what I saw with Chief Alaniwex. Not what I see with Chief Osceola.
00:38:46
Speaker
Right. Exactly. That is not them to me. um How do you combat that one say when people say, well, the the team doesn't need a mascot?
00:38:59
Speaker
Well... Or should you say a mascot like that? i me bru Yeah, I say, well, the chief was never a mascot. It was a symbol. But um people do like to weaponize the the word mascot.
00:39:12
Speaker
they They say they're offended and then they intentionally use offensive terms to offend us back, I guess. um it You can call it whatever you'd like. It's still dignified. It doesn't take any dignity away from it, just using a different word to describe it.
00:39:28
Speaker
he He came in with the band, did one dance, left with the band. That is not a mascot. that In fact, Chief Illini Wig predates almost every mascot except, I think, Yale's dog or Harvard's dog. Then one of them had a had a and a dog for a while. um The mascots weren't really like the the ones that we know of today. um Didn't come around until the nineteen fifty s So to call it a mascot is just disingenuous and and misleading, but it gives them, they feel, toe holder or like a handhold in our armor. It's a chink in our armor. It's not.
00:40:09
Speaker
It's not. it's it's Chief Ilanowicz is still Chief Ilanowicz and still stands for the things he stands. It doesn't matter if you call him a logo a minstrel, mascot, or anything else, that it doesn't take away from what he symbolizes.
00:40:28
Speaker
i know after the removal of the chief, there have been a ah just a ton of suggestions, if you will, to replace the chief, which will never happen in my mind, and nobody will ever replace the chief. But I mean, there's been the the ah the World War I doughboy image. There's been ah numerous other things.
00:40:55
Speaker
And the latest...
00:40:58
Speaker
incarcerer or of I don't know how I want to say it, but the latest invention, if you will, is this um belted... Kingfisher. The Kingfisher. swear to God, I haven't done it. And and i I probably would never. ah But I just, when I see that, i always want to go up and punch him right in the beak.
00:41:21
Speaker
No, no, no. Oh, God, no. Oh, Lord. No. these These students mean well. they They do. I do. and it's it just It just seems to me, I mean, i can say that they're making fun of it, you know.
00:41:34
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, they do want something fun and I can understand that. And I'm, I'm not mad at them for, for this. Um, if the, the university ever took a stance where they would adopt that over the chief, it would be like, uh, replacing, a child's deceased parent with a pet parakeet.
00:41:54
Speaker
Um, it's not the good analogy. It's not the same. um But no, these these students have never come at me. They've never said a bad thing to me.
00:42:05
Speaker
um If we're both out in front of Memorial Stadium, ah I never asked them to move. I never asked anybody to yell at them or anything, although people taken that upon themselves.
00:42:16
Speaker
um But they moved to another area and allow me to stand there, which I but didn't expect, um but I can respect. you know And even on their website, they say they're not there to replace but to supplement, which, I mean, As long as they're not on my field...
00:42:37
Speaker
yeah it That's kind of my, that's kind of my feeling. on unless it does't it And I will say this while the, the, I, and I, I do applaud them for being, for taking initiative and trying something. I will give them that.
00:42:51
Speaker
It just, i don't know, just like you said, it just seems like you're, you're trying to, okay, you know, you don't need this, but here, take this instead. right and you know, I think a lot of people see it that I think for one, if I, if I were to, if I were to have chosen ah a bird uh, for Illinois, um, to use as a substitute symbol, if you will.
00:43:16
Speaker
I think I would have, might've gone for the Thunderbird.
00:43:21
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, because that's a little more deepened into native American culture yeah history. Well, I mean, that's a, that's a, that's a problem I have with the Kingfisher, um, is that that is the, the Kingfisher is a clan of the Ojibwe tribe.
00:43:36
Speaker
um and it's ah And it looks an awful lot like a boy, but they they do say say it's a girl, which, you know, i guess that's a little bit. We need a bird watcher to figure that one out.
00:43:55
Speaker
Right? I mean, they they claim it's a female just because the female is the only one with ah the rust color. it's It's not orange. It's rust. But, you know, but the the thing that gets me is they're on their Their website, they, they call it the Kings guard, the, um, people that walk around the bird. And I'm like, yeah, but now you're just as bad as the Redskins going with the commanders, very colonial name, the Indians going with the guardians, ah very colonial name. And now the U of I want you students want to go with the Kings guard.
00:44:30
Speaker
and all these native names are being replaced and then they're just forcing European colonization names in here. I'm like, wait a minute. Wait, weren't you just saying that that was a terrible thing that happened to us in the first place? So now you're kind of doing an imagery genocide.
00:44:49
Speaker
that's it It's very confusing and frustrating. Like you're sending mixed signals here. Why are you doing this? You know, I don't know why they chose that. i i Well, like i said, i to me, if they they were going to keep the name Illini, so you know that that was something to do with the state and with ah the Native American culture that it that it that it was derived from.
Tribal Representation and Imagery in Sports
00:45:15
Speaker
and um you know, so why not choose something that would bridge that gap instead of something totally, like you said, totally out of left field that really doesn't right have a connection?
00:45:27
Speaker
Right. That's that that is something that has mystified me about every single one of these changes. It's with with the opposition. It's a scorched earth policy with them.
00:45:38
Speaker
It's eradication. There's no compromise. and And what I see in all these schools, in in all these names, in all these images, is this golden teachable moment.
00:45:49
Speaker
Like, you could use this, okay, if you don't like it's too cartoony, let's design something that pleases to you, you know, that's pleasing to you, and then invite you in and teach.
00:46:02
Speaker
Because culture is something that's supposed to be shared. It's not supposed to be like hoarded away like this this dragon sitting on a treasure where nobody can touch it. Like I run into this a lot with the ah Shawnee language.
00:46:15
Speaker
It is so hard to find a website or an app or or anybody that's who can and help you learn it. they You have to be a tribal member. You have to have access or to these special websites. And I'm like, why? This language is dying out, and I want to learn it. So I should be able to learn this for free to carry this on. you know And this this mystifies me about about some tribes.
00:46:40
Speaker
you know and And some of the people, both you know for and against it, they they love to gatekeep it. they you know it's It's ours. Let's gatekeep it. No, I would rather see everybody wear a paper little headband with a feather. Flood flood the imagery.
00:46:55
Speaker
Flood it. We're still here and and it's okay. And if ahead go Go ahead. i was I was just going to say, do you think you mentioned the tribes? Do you think that part of um this is probably a two point question, really?
00:47:11
Speaker
I think to me, part of the issue has become that ah everybody thinks or at least the people who are familiar with Native American culture think of the Illini tribe as one tribe.
00:47:25
Speaker
o It was one single tribe. When that's entirely not the case, it was it was it was actually it was a line i it was actually a nation made up of numerous tribes.
00:47:38
Speaker
Yeah, confederacy. A confederacy, if you will. And i think because of the fact that there are no longer any of those tribes that are, I guess you would call active tribes,
00:47:54
Speaker
um I mean, at least or at least nobody, I haven't heard of anyone coming down coming to the chief's defense from any of those tribes. um Not since 1995. The Peoria are direct asc descendants, ah or the Peoria tribe is a direct descendant of the Illiniwik people.
00:48:12
Speaker
um In 95, they said there was no greater honor. and They were laughing at the protesters and everything. um and then by and leadership changes.
00:48:26
Speaker
you know just Just like with with our U.S. president, um tribal leadership changes and then those views change. And whether they reflect the views of all the tribe or not, not necessarily.
00:48:40
Speaker
um Just look at our our leadership now. Not everybody agrees with what our leadership is doing now. is Some people really, really do. So it goes back to that whole, you get 10 people in a room, right not all them are going to agree. However, one does have the power to make the decisions.
00:48:57
Speaker
Now, when that power is to permit or ah take away permission for imagery, every governing cycle, um that's not a stable image to go with.
00:49:12
Speaker
um So rather than seeking tribal approval, there there should be another way because of our unique situation that we could um get around that because they they gave, we had gotten tribal approval from the the Sioux twice and the Peoria, but then it was like, oh, we changed our minds. Now we can't use it anymore. And it's like, um but you sold us the regalia and you said there was no greater honor. And now it's all like, we didn't change.
00:49:46
Speaker
what happened on your end? And there was no answer given. Like all of a sudden we decided it was racist. Oh, what? You know, like the, the dance was the same. The, the, the regalia was the same. Everything is the same. So it's been the same all this time, but now all a sudden it's racist.
00:50:04
Speaker
Like that, that doesn't, there's something more there. Something doesn't just. Yeah. Well, I don't think it confuses a lot of the, the, the, the fandom or the regular people.
00:50:15
Speaker
When you when they look at it and, you know, Chief Illiniweck was was banned or kicked out or dismissed or whatever you want to call it. I mean, it was ah it happened.
00:50:27
Speaker
And you see the Indians change the name to the Guardians. Redskins go to commanders. But you still see. Florida state and chief Osceola.
00:50:39
Speaker
You still have the name Aztecs, uh, there's San Diego state, San Diego state. Um, you there's still plenty of those images around.
00:50:52
Speaker
Why is why have they survived? And, um things like the Illini, the, those Redskins and the Indians, uh, didn't.
00:51:05
Speaker
Um, Well, with Chief Elino, I think there was a lot of um a lot of the controversy. I wasn't ah around for for a lot of it. um But from what I read, a lot of the controversy is centered around the dance.
00:51:21
Speaker
um And it's in ah in authenticity. um With the Indians, it was the logo. With the Redskins, it was the name. um So each one of them had a piece that could have been changed.
00:51:32
Speaker
um In fact, the the Cleveland Indians... up until 1946, I want to say, a very respectful logo.
00:51:44
Speaker
it was um ah I'm sure you might be familiar with the name Bill Beck. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Very innovative guy. i i say a guy ahead of his time but for all the for everything that he brought to baseball.
00:51:59
Speaker
He was the one that changed it to the cartoon logo. in 1946, just after after the war. He also um hired ah the second ah man to break the color barrier, the first one in the American League, and had him shake hands with every player on the team.
00:52:18
Speaker
There were two, three men who refused to take it shake the man's hand off the team. He threw him off the team. He wasn't gonna have any of that, so this man was not a racist, but he knew how to market things.
00:52:32
Speaker
And he knew the plane dealer had that similar logo, which he kind of, yeah, ripped off, um, for chief Wahoo. And the kids were drawn to that and that baby boomers were being born. And if he wanted to expand his fan base, he was going to have to go for kids.
00:52:53
Speaker
Disney was at their height. Then Looney tunes was at their height. Then cartoons were all in Then he, he hired, um, I hope I'm going to say his name correctly. Uh, Max Pat Patkin, Pat the clown. Yeah. The clown prince of, of base clown princes of baseball. yes Yeah. As the first base coach.
00:53:14
Speaker
So that was an extra draw to the game. And i believe like I, I personally believe this is where the idea that we were mocking, that people were mocking native Americans came in because if you look at Max's profile,
00:53:30
Speaker
And compare it to Chief Wahoo, there's a lot of similarities there. There's a lot of similarities there. I hadn't thought of but When I was doing the research, you know, and I'm looking through, I'm like, and then I saw this picture, I'm like, oh, if I was a kid, I totally would have thought that that was the guy from the logo clowning around on the baseball field.
00:53:53
Speaker
So, I mean, this is this is just me speculating, looking at history in totality, the the cartoons and the baby boom and the everything that Bill Vec did for baseball and just went, wow, I think this is all this is all intertwined. Now, how these organizations that have done these changes,
00:54:16
Speaker
um and specifically the University of Illinois, Do you think the administration handled that well?
Criticism and Advocacy for Dialogue
00:54:27
Speaker
Nope. is there some, okay, you already answered that. What else could, what what could they or should they have done if they were going to make that change?
00:54:39
Speaker
You know, was there a compromise out there that they should have tried to reach? From what I what i remember, see, I was in living in town at the time, but I didn't didn't have a concept of what it makes people kept saying r.i.p chief in line of work i'm like i see the symbol everywhere i don't know what you're talking about you know because i didn't know there was a person um but i did uh it was so shady that the the dan who was portraying the chief at the time from from what i've understood he found out he was no longer the chief on the radio
00:55:15
Speaker
Like they didn't even bother to tell him. They didn't even have the respect and decency to tell him So I feel like and from what I understand, it was kind of a unilateral decision by the the president of the the board of trustees or or the head of the board of trustees um to do away with the chief instead of keeping the dialogue open.
00:55:38
Speaker
um Which I feel was a mistake because of the way it we were blindsided by this. The grief of that is going to hold on and we're not ready ever to let go of something that meant so much.
00:55:55
Speaker
you know, in the in the way that we would show our kids and be like, this is what we look up to. This is dignity. This is courage. This is leadership. This is truthfulness.
00:56:05
Speaker
You know, almost almost like a father fed figure looking over you being, you know, if you're in a room with ah the picture of of the chief, you're like, oh man, I'm not going to do anything wrong. It's watching me.
00:56:17
Speaker
You know, that kind of omnipresence around town that frankly we need. We need a symbol like that. We need ah a fatherly symbol that that says, hey, you need to aspire to these better qualities in life. We all do. I do.
00:56:33
Speaker
yeah Everybody I know needs to be, you know, every day working toward being a better person. And that's the perfect symbol for it. Yeah. a lot of people back at that time also pointed to the
00:56:47
Speaker
proliferation of merchandise ah about the chief. I mean, you had the, I mean, you grant you had it on the shirts and the hats and the stuff, but you know, I think a lot of people when it started going to putting the chief on underwear and toilet paper,
00:57:03
Speaker
I think that may have turned the tide a little bit in the wrong direction. could hear that. I mean, so I guess my question is, is there a proper way to merchandise or to promote a symbol like that that doesn't,
00:57:22
Speaker
um I don't want to he doesn't offend, but but makes it suitable for people? Uh-oh. Well, I'm probably not the the best person to ask for that because I i don't care about money.
00:57:36
Speaker
You won't catch me. um thanks um I actually, um maybe I do have a couple of thoughts. um I feel like whatever would were to be merchandise. And I've heard about the toilet paper and stuff. And I realized that was a third party, not endorsed. I will say that. Yeah. that they that the I don't think the boxers nor the toilet paper were promoted by, and there was also the Illini beer that came out to none of that was promoted by the university. um That was all third party ripoff stuff.
00:58:08
Speaker
Right. And, and I feel like my gut reaction is like, You wouldn't believe the things I've seen Jesus printed on, you know, so. That's probably true. So in the way of emotional, you know, offense, ah it's it's a wash there.
00:58:23
Speaker
um But I do feel when when selling products or or merchandise or something like that, whoever's selling them should really. take the the time and think about the the qualities, again, of the chief, the the the courage, the the loyalty, the leadership, and take a percentage of that sale and and donate it.
00:58:45
Speaker
Donate it to homeless, the the fire department, the police department, anybody who serves the community, anybody who who serves those you know and spends their time working for for others in a service capacity, because that's what The symbol is, you know, service is leadership. and And I feel monetarily that's a way to pay honor. Okay. ah One or two final questions and we'll let you go. we This has been fascinating conversation, by the way. I really, really appreciate you coming on.
00:59:18
Speaker
Thank you. Do see the pot? Because I know um President Jones is leaving the university. Oh, he's gone now. ah Yeah. So thank God for small favors.
00:59:30
Speaker
Pardon my pardon my French, but just didn't see him as ah as the right guy for the job manual anyway. um And and you know it's just just a lot of the policies. And and because he he when he came on, he was like, no, I'm not going to talk about this where we're done.
00:59:46
Speaker
It's all been decided. I'm out of here. Just forget it. uh to me i think i would have least entertained conversation and said okay what do you got to talk to me about um let let's talk um but anyway uh do you think with new leadership coming in that there may be an avenue to rebirth this conversation um i always hope that ears are open um that minds are open and that uh his historical facts and compromise can be met.
01:00:16
Speaker
um i don't know much about this new chancellor ah because I've been really, really busy with ah other things in in life right now. um i have run across some of his ah postings on Reddit and ah one of the threads that I saw, a guy, you know, random guy was just attacking him for his point of view and he broke it down and was very very professional and, you know, not, not argumentative on, on line, but, you know, then again, he had his name attached to that, but I see that as a positive sign that of somebody who would be willing to listen.
01:00:54
Speaker
Like I say, I always hope because I i will always talk. I will always talk. I will always listen. I might and not like it. um But as long as nobody's screaming in my face or, you know, blatantly lying to me or, you know, weren you know, then yeah, I'm, I'm open for dialogue.
01:01:11
Speaker
And I just hope that others are too, because that's the only way you can really solve things. Well, and that's a hundred percent true. I mean, yeah that's, that's it. I mean, you have to have dialogue. You have to have interaction, not one side yelling at the other and each of you claiming that the other is, is the, is the antichrist or whatever.
01:01:31
Speaker
ah You know, I mean, I, you see so much of that today and to have honest, frank discussion that, like you said, hits all points, talks, talks, talks and treats each side with respect.
01:01:43
Speaker
That's how you get the things changed and that's how you get things moved. And, um, so I re again, uh, Breland, I really, really appreciate you coming on. Uh, is there a way people can reach you to help you out?
01:01:56
Speaker
Um, help me. you know with Um, I, I guess, uh, yeah, I'm on, I'm on Facebook under Breland face. So I I'm reachable. Um,
01:02:08
Speaker
ah Yeah, I'm not used to getting any good. I'm just kind of doing this. It's what I ask all my guests. Is there place we can find you to lend support to? And like I said, I have seen this woman in her Princess Alina costume and in her Wonder Woman. You made both of those, correct? Yes.
01:02:29
Speaker
um I ordered the the made ah the regalia. I made the armbands for the regalia um and burned the the things into the moccasins. um But the Wonder Woman thing, I made i made everything but the boots.
01:02:44
Speaker
Yeah. And I'll tell you what, though but both are just fantastic work. You you should be welcome. If nothing else, at least for that, you should be welcome in it. Cause that, cause I tell you what the wonder woman is's not the tradition, not the traditional ah Linda Carter suit.
01:02:58
Speaker
This is the one with the Gal Gadot version. And it is, it's, it's spot on and stunning. I really think it's a very good job. So who yeah see if people, people would like that. um I do that for charity.
01:03:12
Speaker
um I do that for for cancer walks, ah autism events, Special Olympics. So if there's a charity out there and you want some superheroes, oh my gosh, please contact me. yeah is is is Is it your fiancé that dresses up as Captain America?
01:03:25
Speaker
Yes. That's pretty good suit, too. Sometimes my daughter dresses as Supergirl. Oh, really? Oh, cool. Yeah. I said they used to, when they were little, they used to do mini Ant-Man and Wasp, but you know, my son's 13 now and he's, he's over everything.
01:03:41
Speaker
They always are at that age. They always are. Well, again, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. Um, and, uh, we'll hope to get you on again one of these days and we'll talk some more. Hopefully we'll have some better news and some, you know, that maybe they're actually listening to you or the fans and and we come up with that.
Show Wrap-up and Acknowledgments
01:04:00
Speaker
So, uh, so, uh,
01:04:03
Speaker
I just want to let everybody know that if you want to check this ah issue this episode out, can go to Spotify. You can go to Gatewaysports.com. And also at Gatewaysports.com, you're going to find a plethora of other podcasts. You can catch me and Russ Robinson with the NCAA report.
01:04:21
Speaker
You've got the – For the Cubs and Cardinal fans out there, you've got the team of rivals of Ron Nettle, Pete Geddes, and Elliott Dewey. Then there is Mike Stevenson with the two for three. And Ron Nettle also co-hosts at the park with Chris Hamilton. It's all about city soccer.
01:04:36
Speaker
um Then you have Tim Van Stratton and Rodney Capel with the stupidest sports show on earth. And I tell you what, those guys have so much fun, it should be illegal what they do. ah So then there's the often imitated, never duplicated Derrick King sports show with the man himself, Derrick King. You can check all that out on Gateway City Sports at gatewaycitysports.com. Take a look at the articles, too. I get a chance to write a white runner or two every now and again, so give us a look at it. That's gatewaysports.com.
01:05:07
Speaker
So for my guest, Breland Faye, this is Don Glenn wishing you to stay safe, have fun, and we'll talk to you again when we we're talking sports with Uncle Don.
01:05:18
Speaker
Good night, everybody.
01:05:51
Speaker
we want to make one correction. I inadvertently refer to the website for Gateway Sports as gatewaysports.com. It is gatewaysports.net.
01:06:02
Speaker
Please go to that if you are looking for any information on Gateway Sports.