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E127: Tony Urciuoli, Jr.
2.3k Plays4 years ago
Tony Urciuoli, Jr. went out the night of January 24th, 2001 to play pool after receiving a page from someone. He told his family that he’d only be out an hour or two before returning home, but Tony, Jr. never returned.
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Transcript
Introduction & Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
We are excited to announce that this episode is being sponsored by Zencaster, our very own podcast recording platform. So make sure you listen for more information in the middle of the episode and take a look at our show notes to hear exactly why we love Zencaster so much and how you yourself can get a discount.
Personal Loss and Family Impact
00:00:26
Speaker
I lost one of my grandma's in April 2015 and the other one in January of this year. Their losses are ones that I still at times struggle to comprehend. I will crave my grandma's cooking or think about my love of reading or remember her picnic lunches and bamboo fishing poles and the pain comes sweeping back along with the comforting memories mingling together.
00:00:57
Speaker
until I'm a mess of tears. I'll see a pearl necklace and think about how that was both my granny's and my own favorite gem. Or I'll remember climbing the tree in her backyard and her talking to me like I'd climbed Mount Everest, hands cupped around her mouth asking me to be careful. And I'm right back into the puddled mess of tears.
00:01:22
Speaker
When I spoke to the family at the center of the case this week, we spoke extensively about how some pains don't heal. While I will not pretend to even have a remote idea of what this family must have suffered over the course of the last 21 years, I can empathize with losing loved ones so close to you that their loss feels like you're left walking in utter darkness.
00:01:50
Speaker
your sense of direction temporarily misplaced. Nearly all of us can empathize with that. Not that it makes the pain any less because it doesn't, but the loss of a grandparent is one we expect to have to cope with within our lifetime. The loss we never expect is the loss of a child or of a sibling. Those are pangs of grief that go beyond words.
00:02:20
Speaker
that can thrust us into the dark abyss, holding us there as hope hardens to anger. Why, we scream, but only hear our own echo, the endless question.
Case Introduction: Tony Ercio Lee Jr.
00:02:37
Speaker
But the Ercio Lee family is forced to confront even more questions. Why would someone hurt our precious son? Who could have been responsible for his disappearance? And finally, where is he? This is the case of Tony Ercio Lee Jr.
00:03:32
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold.
00:03:38
Speaker
My name is Allison Williams and my name is Maggie Dameron. We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families.
00:03:52
Speaker
With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
Community Acknowledgements
00:04:10
Speaker
OK, Alison, before we begin the show, let's give a shout out to our CNC Partners in Crime showing. I think we shall. I would like to thank our new patrons on Patreon for your support, like our friend Laura.
00:04:26
Speaker
It is the perfect place to go if you have binged all of our normal episodes and you want to learn a little bit more about Maggie and me, if you want to hear some of our own scary experiences, or to hear some full length episodes.
00:04:40
Speaker
And I would like to thank Heather from Missouri who wrote the best review letting us know that she binge watch or not binge watch. We don't have that yet. Binge listen to all of our episodes in only four weeks, which is amazing. And that she felt that we were really friends and Heather
00:05:02
Speaker
If we can meet in person, we are already friends, but if we can meet in person, I think we would be best friends. I think so too. And finally, we would love to thank Monica, Cece, AJ, Marvo, and Estee who all reached out to us on social media in the last week or recommended us to others. We are eternally grateful. Now let's get into this week's case.
Media Coverage Disparities
00:05:31
Speaker
Maggie, this week's case is another one of those cases where there just isn't a lot of information out there in the media regarding what may have happened to Tony Jr. But graciously, Tony's parents, Tony and Sandy Ursioli, as well as Tony's sister, Lisa Verrier, agreed to speak with me about the case to provide some insight that would have been impossible without them.
00:05:59
Speaker
And this week, instead of waiting until the end of the episode to give my call to action, I want to go ahead and give it now. In a lot of the research that I did, and the Arceoli family and I talked about this briefly as well, there was an excellent point that was brought up about crime and its media coverage.
00:06:26
Speaker
So, when you, Maggie, think about some of the most well-known crimes or extensively covered cases in the media, what are some of the ones that come to mind? The Zodiac Killer, John Bonet Ramsey, Lacey Peterson, the Black Dahlia, recently the case over Gabby.
00:06:49
Speaker
What do nearly all of those cases that you named have in common? Oh, most all of them are women or white women to be specific. Yes. And what's interesting is that is absolutely the case when it comes to media coverage. But the numbers are of men and women affected by crime is far closer
00:07:17
Speaker
even when we break it down to just missing persons cases like the one this week. According to the National Crime Information Center, of those who go missing under the age of 21, there were in 2021, so just last year, 194,673 females and 163,386 males.
00:07:42
Speaker
But when you look at that same source for gendered information on missing person cases of people over the age of 21, there were 62,552 females, but 100,492 males. So added together, there are actually more males who go missing than females. But I feel like we never really hear about those people.
00:08:09
Speaker
You don't. And if you looked at media coverage, you would think that the opposite were true. And so this lack of media coverage has also been true for Tony Jr's case. I mean, it has gotten minimal coverage at best.
00:08:27
Speaker
And that fact has been extremely frustrating for Tony's family, as you can imagine, Maggie. I mean, you and I have talked here on our show before, you know, saying, well, what makes one story, quote, unquote, newsworthy, right, over another one, when all of these families deserve answers?
00:08:48
Speaker
Of the media, in an interview with Katherine Donaldson Evans in her 2004 article, Missing Women Grab Headlines, But What About the Men, Tony Jr.'s father stated, quote, I've called the stations. Nobody bothers. I've written emails to everybody and they don't even get back to me. Has it been frustrating? Without a doubt. It's an understatement, end quote.
00:09:16
Speaker
And I mean, to think about that pain and all you want is people to listen and people don't even respond, that has to be so frustrating. Frustrating. That disparity between what gets covered and what doesn't has been chalked up to what some journalists call, and you said it Maggie, missing white woman syndrome.
00:09:42
Speaker
I mean, even for us each week when we're talking about what cases we're going to cover, especially early on when we were doing, you know, just more well-known cases, we would be like, man, we've covered like six white women's cases.
00:10:00
Speaker
show some male representation. Right. You know, mix it up a little. Right. Yeah. I mean, here in a few weeks, I'll be covering the case of an indigenous woman. Right. Those are the cases. And just like Tony juniors, they don't get the coverage. And actually attempting to explain this misguided fascination.
00:10:23
Speaker
That author, Donaldson Evans, in that same article, interviews Aaron Bruno, who's a case manager for the National Center for Missing Adults, who simply explained, quote, the dynamics of their case might not be enough for the media to grab it. Traditionally, men are seen as the stronger ones, the ones who can walk away. There's a stigma placed on men, so they may be lacking in the coverage they're needing.
00:10:52
Speaker
And she added later in the article, quote, I faxed out a press release 10 times about missing adult males, but the media, for whatever reason, didn't pick up on it. Often what the media looks for is that twist or turn. Sometimes there's just not that element, so the media doesn't run it, end quote.
00:11:14
Speaker
And I feel like with men, this could be wrong, but I feel like with men, a lot of the times we want to say they left on their own or they were
00:11:25
Speaker
this sounds really harsh, but almost they're at fault for their disappearance. Whereas with women, I think we always picture them as more the victim. I mean, it's the same with sexual assault cases. Men get sexually assaulted all the time. Not women. And for some reason, we're fixated with
00:11:46
Speaker
some people are excited with it just happens to women and that's not the case. Right, right. And you know, sometimes other podcasts are guilty of that too. I mean, they only want to share the stories with the most shock value that might get the most listens because that story has, you know, what Aaron Bruno mentioned, all those twists and turns that keep the listener intrigued. But I mean,
00:12:09
Speaker
I guess that's where you and I come in, Maggie, because we've noted before, and you Sleuthhounds, you know this, we refuse to ignore a case just because there might not be as much information about it, or because it isn't as, quote unquote, shocking or sensationalized. And that's really why we appreciate our Sleuthhounds listeners, too, because you guys continue to share these stories.
00:12:33
Speaker
And you have no idea how much that means to these families. I mean, you guys are sharing even when others don't. With that being said, let me share with you what we know of what happened to Tony Urcio Lee Jr.
Tony Jr.'s Background and Family Life
00:12:50
Speaker
Tony Jr.'s family, made up of those I mentioned, his dad and mom, Tony and Sandy, and sister Lisa, who was eight years younger than little Tony, were tight knit.
00:13:02
Speaker
They had the traditional patriarchal family structure where dad Tony worked to support his family while mom Sandy stayed home with the kids and cooked and cleaned. And they always had dinner as a family. Sandy was exactly 20 years older than little Tony. So she was 20 when she had little Tony and they were always together.
00:13:29
Speaker
in their hometown of Pukipsi, New York. Ooh, I like that name. I know, it's fun. While the downtown area of Pukipsi isn't known to be the safest of places, Tony's sister told me that where they lived actually wasn't in the downtown area, but it was in a much more rural location.
00:13:50
Speaker
In fact, she said there really wasn't much to do around the immediate area. There was St. Martin's Church, the Poughkeepsie Galleria, and a bowling alley. Oh, Anthony and I went bowling, so we took a very short anniversary trip to Cincinnati area, and we went bowling, and that's the first time I've been bowling since probably high school. One, I'm not that good at it. I did get better as the night went on, but it was so fun.
00:14:16
Speaker
Oh yeah. Now I am curious though, talking about bowling in New England, if this were bowling like we know bowling or if it was candle pin bowling. I don't even know what that is. It's similar but the ball's smaller and the pins are like straight sticks.
00:14:35
Speaker
Oh, I do know what that is. I saw it on Bridgerton. Yeah, so I'm curious and I didn't even think to ask Lisa. So a bowling alley, regular or candle pin.
00:14:47
Speaker
I don't know. But I would wager to guess that the lack of the busy hum of activity that can sometimes draw families out of a home if you live in a larger metropolitan area, right? The lack of those things could also be one of the reasons that drew this family even closer together. Oh yeah, those are your source of entertainment. Exactly. Lisa remembered a childhood of going to shows and snacking on strawberries and bananas with Cool Whip.
00:15:16
Speaker
alongside her older brother, just like these fun memories when they were kids. And each family member, Maggie, mentioned how Little Tony was just a beautiful person. Did they call him Little Tony? So, they called him Tony Jr. and I call him Tony Jr. sometimes in the episode, but it just made more sense to call him Little Tony. Okay.
00:15:39
Speaker
I like little Tony. I do too. So, dad Tony said of his son, quote, he was my life, end quote. And his sister recalled how she and her father are very much alike, but that little Tony and her mom are extremely similar. Yeah, she told me, quote, my father and I are very type A, very intense,
00:16:05
Speaker
Deep and sensitive, he was light, happy, funny. He liked to tell jokes and to dance. He was like my mother. He sounds like my mom. Just like happy go lucky, you know, just bringing joy. Yeah, bringing joy to people.
00:16:29
Speaker
This joy, the joking, the dancing, the laughs, that is what little Tony and his mom did together. She told me that they were always laughing and having a good time. I mean, even thinking about some of the positive memories made Sandy giggle when I was talking to her to remember the times that they shared. And the smile was there in her voice when she talked about hearing how some women,
00:16:56
Speaker
She was talking about how, you know, some women will go with boys who are 20 years younger than them. But that made her think about how her little boy little Tony was 20 years younger. And this one girl that she worked with who had seen Sandy and the little Tony together pulled Sandy aside and was like,
00:17:16
Speaker
Your son is gorgeous. And Sandy thought, oh no, no, no, you don't. You're not going after my baby boy. That's right. So when we get to our case this week, little Tony was actually 31. So he's not little, little. He's the same age as me. Yeah.
00:17:39
Speaker
Little Tony ran the family business when his dad went into banking, and Tony Jr. was also a waiter at the Duchess Diner, and he was living at home saving his money. Very smart thing to do. In fact, his dad told me that while Little Tony was very generous with his mom and sister and buying them things, he pretty much hoarded the rest of his money.
00:18:08
Speaker
I wish I could be like that. I know. It's an admirable trait to be able to save.
00:18:18
Speaker
Did I need three new outfits and a purse? No. Did I buy three new outfits and a purse? Yes. And then I got them home and I was like, why did I just do this? Right. Fires remorse. Right. Tony's thinking about it before he's spending it. His father even told me that little Tony still had his first communion money. I know. So basically the money from the time he was seven.
00:18:43
Speaker
And little Tony even worked extra shifts at the diner to earn extra money as well. So he's like actually reminds me of a kid that we have at school. He already works pretty much full time at Sonic and is dead set on supporting his mom like that's his goal in life.
00:19:02
Speaker
And that's why he worked so hard. And this is kind of who this little kid reminds me. Well, he's not a kid, but who Tony Jr. Reminds. Right. Yeah. And so he's constantly working. He's saving his money. According to his family, little Tony was, even though he was living at home, extremely independent. And even though he was living at home, his parents treated him like an adult.
00:19:28
Speaker
You know, that was always a fear with me. Like when I moved back to Kentucky, my mom was like, you know, move back in with, with me and you know, you have here for free. And there was just this fear of what I still, would I be treated as an adult? Yeah. I mean, you know what I mean? I even think it was hard when I was in college to adjust to going back home over the summer because I felt, I felt like I had to justify.
00:19:57
Speaker
everywhere I was going, whereas when I was in college, I just went. Right, right. Now I will give it to Tony and Sandy because they didn't, even though he was living there with them, they didn't
00:20:09
Speaker
you know, question his every move, you know. But while Tony would stay in his bed most every night at home, he would come and go as he pleased. Though he would let them know, even if it was only vaguely where he was going and if he wouldn't be back home that night.
00:20:28
Speaker
Gotcha. Yeah, his mom Sandy said, quote, if he wanted to go to Mohegan's son, he'd say, Ma, I'm going to stay overnight. And I'd say, Oh, good. Have a good time. End quote. So I mean, it was just like he would let her know where he was going, that he was he wasn't going to be coming back that night. But you know, it wasn't like a
00:20:51
Speaker
who you're gonna say she wouldn't worry basically right right and so it was a great living situation tony sandy and lisa loved having tony jr there and tony jr loved being with them as well now before i get into the nitty gritty details of the story i do want to tell you maggie and you sleuthounds that while i heard
00:21:20
Speaker
exact names in my conversations with the Ursioli family.
Investigation Details and Challenges
00:21:27
Speaker
I will not be saying those names during the podcast because none of them have been named persons of interest or suspects.
00:21:38
Speaker
And we've actually gotten messages about that like why have we given support when many people believe this person is guilty or why aren't we saying names when everybody believes it's blah blah blah and it's because of that reason we can't just
00:21:55
Speaker
bash in somebody's character, even if we believe that that's who's responsible, because we could get sued. Right. Yeah. And where we talk about potential theories as well.
00:22:10
Speaker
Yeah, we talk about hypotheticals. So yeah, we'll just, I'll state relationships, but no names. Okay. So Tony Jr. had been in a long term relationship with a young woman who was a police officer in a state.
00:22:29
Speaker
She's a baddie. Yeah. According to his family, this girlfriend had come from a bit of a sordid background. I didn't delve into that and was very introverted. And she and little Tony had actually been together for eight years until he found her cheating. Oh. Yeah. And they had just recently broken up.
00:22:59
Speaker
The case that I'm going to talk about is in January of 2001, and they had broken up about a month earlier. Okay. The Urcioli family had also just returned on a much brighter memory here from a vacation to Cancun in the Riviera Maya. Mama's favorite place. We vacation there twice. I've never been and I want to go so badly. You need to go.
00:23:27
Speaker
especially after talking to this family and hearing all the awesome stuff. Oh, it's so fun. And it's cheaper than we've ever been able to go on vacation in the United States because it's all inclusive. Gotcha. Well, Sandy recalled that vacation and remembers little Tony dancing and swimming and just being happy, which I'm sure she was glad to see because he had just gone through this breakup, you know, when things in his life
00:23:57
Speaker
like that were a little bit tumultuous. Once they got back, everyone got back into the swing of working again. And little Tony was no exception, because remember, he's like a workaholic. He'll take on the extra shifts because he wants to make the extra money and all of that. And he actually loved his job at the Duchess Diner, mostly because he would make huge tips.
00:24:21
Speaker
Oh, I'm sure he sounds like a people person, so I'm sure people loved him. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and he had to share some pictures with you that his sister Lisa shared with me, like this beaming smile.
00:24:33
Speaker
So, and Sandy, his mom said that he got tips so big that she used to tease him saying, how could you take that from a girl? So like, I'm guessing these girls were flirting with him and leaving him these big tips at the diner. Oh, I was out with my brother once and he thought his female waitress was just beautiful and left her a $100 tip with his phone number. Did she call him?
00:25:03
Speaker
She did. She did? Yeah. So it worked. It worked. According to the Ursioli family, little Tony was well respected at the diner and he did a good job. I mean, like you said, he's a people person. He seemed to have a good relationship with most of his coworkers. There was a family who worked there, a parent and two sons.
00:25:33
Speaker
And again, Tony seemed to get along with them, but Tony Jr. did tell his mom that the night manager did not seem to like him. He said that the night manager kept giving him a hard time at work and actually tried to keep him in the kitchen rather than out serving, which meant that he wouldn't be able to bring in the tips that he used to. And so Sandy remembers Tony Jr. just talking about how
00:26:02
Speaker
You know, he seemed like, I don't know, like he had a vendetta or something against him. I wonder if he was hoping if he kept Tony in the kitchen, he would get the big tips. I mean, maybe that was the case. I don't know. And while little Tony, as he got older, you know, that would be hard living at home and trying to separate kind of
00:26:28
Speaker
your family time from your friends slash personal life. Um, little Tony did try to keep the two separate as he got older. Um, but he would still talk to his mom about his life, but you know, you're, you know, when my little sleuth hound has friends over, I'm right there in the middle of their business.
00:26:51
Speaker
You know, because she's young. But, you know, he had that separation. So, because he would still kind of tell her at least what was going on, just like the Mohegan son story, when on January 25th, 2001, Sandy realized that little Tony hadn't come home from the night before. And knowing that he had work that morning,
00:27:20
Speaker
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Speaker
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00:29:24
Speaker
So let me go back to the night before. So I've already told you January 25th, Sandy realizes her son never came home. On January 24th was the last time his family saw Tony Jr.
00:29:41
Speaker
Okay, so he's not home the morning of the 25th. We've seen him though, the night of the 24th. So not a lot of time. Right. Okay. Tony got home from work around 11pm, which sounds really late to me, but it was earlier than normal for him to get home from work.
00:30:00
Speaker
I can already be in the bed. I can get up for work at 5am. I could not stay at work past 10. I'd be asleep. Anthony has been yesterday. He worked 14 and a half hours because they have a project that I was like, no, you are. I couldn't do it, could not do it.
00:30:22
Speaker
So this was weird, though, because, again, Tony's the one who's picking up extra shifts, right? Like, he's not normally being sent home early. So he got home around 11, and because that was so odd, when his dad saw him, he asked him what he was doing home so early, to which little Tony replied that they didn't need him at the diner, and so they sent him home. So he said he was just going to go to bed.
00:30:52
Speaker
Hmm. I wonder if that was weird, that that diner would send him home. Right. It had never, nope. I mean, the diner had never done that before. Right. Oh, so I wonder what was different. I don't know. Around 30 minutes later, Tony Jr. got a page. Oh, back in the day of pagers. Back in the day. He got a page from someone asking him to come out.
00:31:17
Speaker
When Tony, big Tony, saw his son dressed and getting ready to leave, he said, I thought you were going to bed, right? Because Tony Jr. Remember, he was like, I'm tired. I'm going to bed. And now he's getting ready to go out. But Tony Jr. responded saying he was going to go shoot pool with a friend, and he would be back home in about an hour or two. And playing pool was something that Tony Jr. sometimes did with his friends. OK, so normal as of right now. Right.
00:31:46
Speaker
Sister Lisa recalls that her brother had asked her if she wanted to come with him, but she was tired and it was late, so she said no. Same, Lisa, same. Right. But now, and I understand why she feels this way, but I'm saddened that she does, she is stuck in that wondering if she had gone with him, if things would have been different.
00:32:16
Speaker
this family could potentially have two missing children. Right, exactly. Now, she told me that she does know who the page was from, even though all of the news accounts that I read either said vaguely, quote unquote, a friend or others, other sources said that the page was from an unknown person.
00:32:44
Speaker
But she told me that she knows who it was from. I would use the term friend loosely. This was not one of Tony Jr's closest friends, but Lisa told me that the page was from an individual who worked at the diner. Okay, so not someone in his typical social circle.
00:33:08
Speaker
Right, from my understanding, right. Okay. Soon after little Tony left, the rest of his family went to bed. Because remember, at this point, it's like 1130. It wasn't until the next morning, when Sandy hadn't seen her son up, and of course, again, she knew he had work that morning, right? So again, that's not like Tony, that she went to his room to check on him. He wasn't there, and his bed was still made.
00:33:39
Speaker
which meant she hadn't come home. Oh yeah, from the night before. Now, at first, we talk about this, the logic game. She said she thought, well, maybe he decided to stay the night with somebody. But then when she heard from her husband that Tony Jr. said he would be home in an hour or two, now she's nervous.
00:34:02
Speaker
Yeah, because he's honest with her and honest with his family. So I don't think he would say that and not mean it. Right. Yeah. Because if he were going to stay somewhere overnight, he would have let them know. The same individual who Lisa says paged the night before to go out, ended up calling the house that day. But according to all of the family members I talked to, the conversation was bizarre.
00:34:33
Speaker
The caller was someone who Tony Jr. knew, but at the same time, we talked about like, I said I would use the term friend loosely. This person had never called the house before. So that's weird. So he calls the house.
00:34:53
Speaker
And he asked, and I thought this was weird, and now in hindsight, sometimes I think of questions that I should ask, but I don't think of them until way later. But I'm wondering with them, if when this caller called the house, if the caller even asked for Tony, because when they told me about the bizarre conversation,
00:35:20
Speaker
It all went back to this caller asking them if Tony had gotten the Super Bowl tickets. That's very weird. But I didn't even think to say, like, did he ask for Tony first? Right? And then they were like, oh, no, he's not here. And then the follow up question was, did he get the Super Bowl tickets? Yeah, or did he open with that? Right.
00:35:44
Speaker
Because that would I don't know. That would mean something to me. But the question in itself was weird on multiple levels because Tony's sister Lisa stated, quote, We weren't rich. We'd never been to see the Super Bowl. End quote. When is the Super Bowl typically? It's like end of January, beginning of February.
00:36:09
Speaker
And why did he have to call the house to ask it? Couldn't he have just paged him like he did before? Right. Right. So that's bizarre.
00:36:21
Speaker
And I actually asked the family because they kept bringing this up, like how odd that was about asking if Tony had gotten the Super Bowl tickets. And so I said, you know, did Tony Jr. like to watch sports? And his sister Lisa said she never knew him to watch the NFL. So again, this is weird. And even his dad corroborated that statement telling me he didn't do Super Bowl. All he did was work like his old man.
00:36:53
Speaker
So this is weird on a lot of levels. So I wonder if perhaps, I mean, I don't obviously don't know Tony, but I wonder if perhaps this was a drunken conversation that the two of them had maybe talking about they wanted to go to the Super Bowl. But I just... But it's weird. Yeah, I don't take Tony Jr. as a kind who would like pretend to like something if he didn't. Yeah, if he didn't.
00:37:18
Speaker
and be like, yeah, let's go to the Super Bowl. I mean, if he doesn't watch. Could it have been some like code phrase? Like he asks a weird question and according to what their answer is, like maybe he would know Tony's home or not without having to say it. I thought the exact same thing.
00:37:42
Speaker
I actually said that to Lisa and because I said, do you think this phone conversation was just a way of verifying that Tony wasn't there? Hmm. And she said that she thought the same thing.
00:37:59
Speaker
It almost would have to be, because it's just so bizarre. It's super bizarre. But right after this phone conversation, and again, they're waiting for Tony to get home, Tony Jr. doesn't come home, the family quickly went to the Poughkeepsie police station to file a missing persons report. They are wasting no time. Good job, family. I know. But they tell me that, like you and I discuss so often, because of his age,
00:38:26
Speaker
law enforcement first tried to convince the family that he likely left of his own volition, which is exactly what you said at the beginning of the episode, is the assumption especially of missing men. And I feel like as someone, I mean, I just feel that law enforcement
00:38:46
Speaker
That should be the last thing you assume and the runway. Not the first thing because you lose so much time assuming they've left on their own or that they've ran away. Right. Exactly. Precious time. The golden hours.
00:39:04
Speaker
So law enforcement actually, I'm sure they told law enforcement about all of the details that they were aware of at this point, including that phone conversation, the bizarre one about the Super Bowl tickets, because they also told me, the family did, that law enforcement suggested that, well, maybe he just left town to go to the Super Bowl, because in 2001, the Super Bowl was held on January 28th. But I feel like they would know that.
00:39:32
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm sure that's what his family told law enforcement, but they were like, oh, he probably left town to go to the Super Bowl. It's in a few days. He'll be back. And they even proposed Maggie. Crazy. Well, maybe maybe Tony Jr. just liked Mexico so much that he went back there to work. Okay. Is that ridiculous?
00:39:59
Speaker
The law enforcement would suggest that. And I think he would share that information with the family he loves. He would. And little Tony's family knew him better than that, right? They're saying he would never do those things without telling us. And besides his mom's birthday, and I would wager a bet to say that of all the family, he was closest to his mom.
00:40:27
Speaker
Right, so he's not going to miss her birthday. Yeah, and it was just a couple of days away. So he's not going to miss that for the world. So there the Ursaiolis were. They were a nervous wreck, worried about little Tony. Law enforcement from the family's perspective didn't seem concerned at all.
00:40:48
Speaker
And I actually tried to call the Poughkeepsie detectives division. I was put in touch with a lieutenant on the force with whom I left multiple messages and attempted to call multiple times. But at the time of this recording, I have yet to hear back from them. And if we do hear back, we do plan on doing an update. Several of our cases need updates. So maybe that would be something we could include. Right. Because I wanted to give them a chance to say
00:41:19
Speaker
what they did, especially early on what they are continuing to do. But when law enforcement wasn't putting in the effort that the family thought was necessary, the family began looking for Tony Jr. themselves, which is exactly what I would have done. According to the family, law enforcement told them that they were unable to locate Tony's car.
00:41:45
Speaker
So Sandy's brother, Tony Jr's uncle began driving around looking for it. And on January 26th,
00:41:55
Speaker
he found something. I swear to God, if you tell me that he found their car and it was Tony's car and it was super easy to find, I'm going to be okay, of course. There was a baseball field parking lot.
Search for Answers and Theories
00:42:09
Speaker
It was called Sprat Park and it was off of Wilbur Boulevard, about five minutes from the Erceoli home, north of where Tony Jr. said he was headed the night of the 24th. And right there in the parking lot,
00:42:25
Speaker
set Tony Jr's gray Nissan Maxima. But the car itself was empty. The family again immediately notified police because of course they're the ones who are going to have to test it for evidence. I mean when they, so hopefully I'm hoping one that the family didn't go into the car because then that compromises
00:42:50
Speaker
Right. Whatever's in there. They did not. Okay, and I'm hoping that they were able to tell something from the car. They were not. The car itself was locked and there was no sign of a struggle that was either marked on the car itself nor the ground around the car.
00:43:15
Speaker
So it literally looked like either the car had been dumped here, or it had been driven here, but Tony left it without any form of a struggle. Inside the vehicle, in the console, they found Tony's wallet with $21 in cash. Well, I feel he would need that. Even if he parked it to walk somewhere, you're going to take your wallet with you.
00:43:45
Speaker
Yes. So you would definitely need your wallet. Yeah. Yeah. That's not something that you would just normally be like, I think I'll just leave this behind. Sounds like a good idea. Right.
00:44:01
Speaker
I asked his mom if, because I thought, I wonder if that's weird, the wallet being in the console. And so I asked if that was something that he had normally done is to put his wallet in the console. And she said that it was something that he normally did. So, I mean, maybe he put it in there and he forgot to grab it.
00:44:25
Speaker
I guess. I mean, that's all we can say right now. Yeah. The finding of the car told us nothing about what happened to Tony Jr. Was there places around the ballpark that he would have walked to, like a restaurant or a bar? Not that I'm aware of. It almost makes me feel like it was brought there later. It could be.
00:44:56
Speaker
Because, I mean, if he were going to leave on his own, right, like the police were suggesting, right? Well, he's not going to get very far because he has no car. Yes, or wallet. So that doesn't seem logical to me. And then I started thinking, OK, let's say the person who called the house asking about the Super Bowl tickets were telling the truth. If Tony Jr. had come to buy Super Bowl tickets, like that caller said, either
00:45:26
Speaker
He would have had way more cash on him than $21, because you're not buying two Super Bowl tickets for $21. Or if Tony Jr. had stepped out of the car with, let's say, just the cash to buy tickets, I think that's weird, because to me, it's not
00:45:49
Speaker
logical to take out a big wad of cash from my wallet only to leave $21 rather than to take my whole wallet out with me. And if we're assuming that he's meeting someone almost like he looked this person up on Craig's list and he's buying tickets from them.
00:46:07
Speaker
Then we're assuming that if something happened there was no struggle. We're also assuming that this man who never spends his money is spending money on Super Bowl tickets, which would be tickets he would not really even be interested in.
00:46:29
Speaker
Yes, I'm so glad you said that, because that is my point exactly. We know that little Tony doesn't spend his money on really much of anything. Anything. So it is not believable to me either, Maggie, that he would spend that kind of money on something that his family said he doesn't even care about. I'm gonna look it up. I'm looking it up. Average Super Bowl price, average ticket price. I don't believe the Super Bowl ticket story
00:46:58
Speaker
And because I don't believe the Super Bowl ticket story, that means that phone call about the tickets is fishy to me as well. Okay, no. The average Super Bowl price for that Super Bowl was $325. And it was in Tampa, Florida. Right. And we're in Pukipsi, New York. No. Which they did play the Baltimore Ravens
00:47:26
Speaker
Right. Super Bowl 35 was the first appearance of the Baltimore Ravens as they beat the New York Giants. Okay. So we can make a small connection to his area, I guess. Right. Right. But again, if it's $300 and he has $21 in his wallet, I just, I'm just not believing it. No. And so I'm not believing the phone call either.
00:47:53
Speaker
Sandy's birthday came and went without her son by her side and no one was coming forward with answers. Law enforcement did go to the pool hall where Tony Jr. sometimes played to see if anybody remembered seeing him the night of the 24th because remember he leaves and he says, I'm going to play pool. I'll be back in an hour or two, which again,
00:48:17
Speaker
He doesn't lie to his parents. You know what I mean? So why would he say he's going to play pool, but then he's going to buy Super Bowl tickets? Yeah, I feel like he would just say, I'm going to get Super Bowl tickets. Right. So law enforcement did go to the pool hall. And while most news reports that I read stated that no one recalled seeing Tony there that night,
00:48:43
Speaker
his family told me a slightly different story. They told me that the bartender initially acted like Tony Jr. was there, but then changed his mind and said, oh no, he wasn't. But the Ursaiolis don't believe that this change in the story was merely mistaken memory and then a correction. They believe that the bartender changed stories
00:49:14
Speaker
because he didn't want to get involved. So do we believe whoever was involved in Tony's disappearance, are they influential in the community? I think that I'm not sure in terms of like influential being like the big guns, but I think people knew them.
00:49:44
Speaker
Okay. Potentially. It's one of the theories we'll talk about. Because I do feel like Tony is memorable and it seems from just this little bit that people like to be around him. So I think the bartender would remember if he was there on the 24th. Right. Exactly. It wouldn't be like, oh, yeah. Oh, nope. Nope. Never mind. I was wrong. Mm hmm.
00:50:09
Speaker
desperately wanting answers and not really getting much of anywhere, the Ursioli family hired private investigators at $1,500 a week to look for little Tony. And his mom, Sandy, admitted that people could lose their homes over this. And I completely understand. And because as a parent, there is no price that is too high when it comes to finding.
00:50:40
Speaker
Yeah, child. Exactly. There are so many people, I guarantee it, who bankrupt themselves trying to find answers. But Maggie, even the PI couldn't find anything. And that's where we stand 21 years later, the same place we were two days after Tony Ursioli Jr. disappeared.
00:51:07
Speaker
So I think this may be one of the strangest, for lack of a better word, cases that we've talked about because I think this may be one of the cases we have the fewest or the smallest amount of information or evidence to talk about. But I do have some theories. Okay. So theory one,
00:51:36
Speaker
And I'm mentioning this one just to get it out of the way and because law enforcement seem convicted on this belief that Tony left of his own accord. I understand that there wasn't sign of a struggle. I understand that little Tony had just gone through a breakup and that there was money that was missing. I'll tell you more about that in another theory though. But I just don't buy this theory.
00:52:06
Speaker
Yeah, same. And the Ursula always told me that law enforcement still seem convinced that little Tony is alive somewhere. And actually just last week, Tony's sister Lisa submitted DNA so that officers could cross reference that DNA in some databases to check.
00:52:31
Speaker
But do they seem convinced he's alive? He just left. And I'm thinking that's 21 years. I mean, what happened to, oh, he's gone to the Super Bowl. He'll be back next weekend. And do they have, have they presented the family with evidence as to why they believe that? This is what we think happened. Right. This is another one of those cases where there has not been a whole lot of communication.
00:53:02
Speaker
between law enforcement and family. So theory two, this one is also super vague, but it would be that Tony Jr. was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And something happened to him at the hands of a stranger. Well, that area was dangerous, wasn't it? You said that at the beginning. Yes, the downtown Poughkeepsie can be dangerous.
00:53:32
Speaker
I looked at a map of crime in the state of New York and Poughkeepsie is near the top and doesn't have the largest of populations.
00:53:47
Speaker
Downtown isn't, like I said, the safest, but you would think that if this theory were true and he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and something happened to him at the hands of a stranger, that there would have been signs of a struggle. And he seems to be able to take care of him. I feel like he could hold his own from all we've learned about him. Right.
00:54:10
Speaker
Even like my little sleuth hound, she's little. But if somebody tried to take her, she'd be scratching and clawing and yelling and kicking and all of that stuff. I mean, there would be signs. Yes. And even when police looked for fingerprints on Tony Jr's car, they found no foreign fingerprints on the car. So weird. Mm-hmm.
00:54:40
Speaker
And Sandy told me that police have told her that they don't think that drugs were involved. They told her, quote, Your son was a good kid. He could have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. End quote. Which again is I don't know. I feel like that's a.
00:55:01
Speaker
half-hearted attempt or statement by law enforcement. You know what I mean? Like, well, you could have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that's no comfort. No. Like saying that doesn't make anybody feel better. No, it certainly doesn't. So I'm more inclined to believe one of the last two theories that I'm going to share with you. Okay. Theory three, that Tony's ex-girlfriend had something to do with the disappearance.
00:55:31
Speaker
with no signs of a struggle, Sandy believes, and I agree with her, that it makes more sense to believe that Tony Jr. left with someone he knew. Though I still don't know why he would have left his wallet behind. But if there's no sign of a struggle, and Tony's not there, that means he had to have left with someone. Right. So it would have to be somebody he knew. Yes.
00:56:00
Speaker
Big Tony and Sandy told me that soon after Little Tony went missing, his ex-girlfriend did a complete 180. So remember before she worked in law enforcement? Yeah. But after Tony went missing, she became a go-go dancer. So that's an odd career shift. Yeah.
00:56:26
Speaker
Tony Sr. said that after Tony Jr. went missing, she also wouldn't talk to police and wouldn't take a lie detector test. Now, we've talked about lie detector tests here on the show, right? And how they're kind of a double-edged sword because if people think you're guilty and you pass it, they think you've somehow tricked it.
00:56:50
Speaker
but you could be innocent and it could show a sign of deception and everybody believes that you're guilty. I was told that the ex-girlfriend's brother was in the FBI. So there could have been some family advice, you know, not to take it. But what bothers the Ursula family the most is that they believe
00:57:17
Speaker
the ex-girlfriend had something potentially to gain with Tony Jr. being gone. $300,000 to be precise. So Tony, remember he's a workaholic. He's working all the time. He's saving everything. He had also previously gotten an accident settlement.
00:57:43
Speaker
of a large sum of money. And again, remember, he doesn't spend it. So originally, Tony Jr. had all of his money in a safe in his parents' garage, and he would put the money in as he made it. But his mom said that she saw Tony Jr. taking the money in duffel bags and keeping it with his, well, she was his girlfriend at the time, at her house.
00:58:11
Speaker
Now this is one time when Tony's mom did ask questions. Oh yeah, I would do. Yeah. And she was like, why are you doing that when you're not even married? But her son responded with, mom, that's between me and her. Hmm. And that's where the conversation ended. Tony Jr's parents have never seen that money again. So all of the money was out of the safe? Right.
00:58:41
Speaker
And they said that there was no way to get the money back because if cash is on somebody else's property, then it's theirs. Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't either. Until our conversation, but have a dad. Well, they think that the money was used right after for that ex girlfriend to purchase a home. So in their mind, this is one theory.
00:59:11
Speaker
is that she could have had something to do with it because she had something financially to gain from it. I mean, it does...
00:59:26
Speaker
clear up a little bit of that, right? She was able to purchase a home. That money's missing. But if all the money was given to her before he disappeared, then why did they need to make him disappear? Unless the money was there and the ex-girlfriend was supposed to give it back. And Tony was going to meet to get it.
00:59:55
Speaker
And then disappears. Okay, so that's theory three. Theory four is that someone from the diner hurt a little Tony or arranged to have him hurt. Tony Sr. believes in his gut that whatever happened to his son is linked to the diner.
01:00:20
Speaker
He told me, quote, I think the diner was his downfall. I think he met the wrong people there. That's my personal opinion, end quote. And Sandy told me that the PI that they hired actually went to interview the individual who paged Tony Jr. and then called about the Super Bowl tickets. And that the PI reported back to the Ursaiolis that he had found a wire
01:00:50
Speaker
on the man. Oh, so like somebody was going to be listening to their conversation. Yeah. And this detail has led the family to believe that it all goes back to the diner. They wonder if that's why the bartender changed his story and didn't want to get involved. And Tony Sr. said that they had actually those individuals from the diner asked Tony Jr. to loan them money.
01:01:19
Speaker
So he wonders if what happened to his son came down to that. Like maybe he told them no or he had loaned them money and he was asking for it back. Or he was going to loan them money. Right. And they wanted more than maybe what he was going to loan. Right. Any of those things are possibilities.
01:01:40
Speaker
Tony Jr's mom Sandy actually ran into a family member of that individual, the individual who paged and called about the Super Bowl tickets in a dollar store because Sandy had popped in to get something for her granddaughter. And she said that when she saw that family member that their eyes almost bugged out of their head and he seemed in shock. And so Sandy questioned
01:02:09
Speaker
If he knew nothing about little Tony, why would this family member have acted like that? So she's thinking, okay, well, this is awfully weird behavior if this man knows nothing about what happened to my son. But Tony Jr. Sister Lisa told me that when she pointedly asked
01:02:35
Speaker
about those two leads, theory three and theory four, that law enforcement have looked her in the eye and said, oh, we looked into it and it wasn't them.
01:02:49
Speaker
provide them because I don't know. Can investigators provide the family or families in any case really with reasons and information as to why they rule people out or discard theories? I'm not sure. I think that's a case-by-case basis.
01:03:14
Speaker
Um, because I feel like if they're now law enforcement could share something with family and say, this is not to be made public, but as a law enforcement officer, I think that's a,
01:03:31
Speaker
fine line to walk as well. And I'm trying to put myself on the other side here because I usually sympathize only with the family and them desperately wanting answers. But I guess I can see where your question stems because if I'm a law enforcement officer and I need to keep certain details close to the vest because that's how I'm going to know that this really is my perpetrator.
01:04:01
Speaker
then those might be details that I wouldn't share with anyone. But I feel like if I were able to rule somebody out, then that should be information that I could share. Right. And I think that it would add an extra peace of mind. Like if they could tell the family why those people were no longer suspects or
01:04:23
Speaker
not ever named as a suspect. Right, exactly. And the Ursaiolis have also, Maggie, over the years spoken with several psychics. I mean, with anyone who might give a clue that could lead to answers. Some have told Sandy, and I can't imagine these psychics because some of these things I'm getting ready to tell you that they've told the family seem to me so gruesome.
01:04:48
Speaker
And I'm thinking, I can't imagine ever saying that to somebody. But some have told Sandy that three guys picked Tony up in a white van from his car and twisted his leg. Yeah. Some psychics have said that his girlfriend picked him up and killed him. Others have said that, in fact, many others, that he's in the nearby Hudson River and that they'll never find him.
01:05:18
Speaker
And still others have said that little Tony was taken to an asphalt plant by someone who knew when the dumping was of the cement and that his body was placed in a bag and cement poured over him so he won't ever be found.
01:05:35
Speaker
Well, if that was the case, I feel that that's important information to narrow down a suspect because it would have to be someone who potentially had connections to the stumpy ground. Also, there is technology that can be used to penetrate the ground to see if there's something there. That's right. You talked about it in one of your cases. Yes, I did. You asked Anthony about it. Yep. Yep. Yep. And two miles down the road, Maggie, from where his car was found is an asphalt plant.
01:06:04
Speaker
But while we don't know anything for sure, we do know that no one disappears into thin air and that someone knows something. So Maggie, who is your gut telling you that someone is? I do think I agree with Tony Sr. I think it is connected to the diner. I think it's
01:06:29
Speaker
almost too coincidental that for the first time ever he was sent home that night from the Donner because he wasn't needed there and he also disappears that night potentially by someone who worked at the Donner who paged him. I feel like there's just too many connections to the Donner.
01:06:47
Speaker
An article by Larry Fisher Hertz stated that a detective on the force told him that more than 225 leads were followed on the case and that the police have thick files with all the information that they've gathered. Tony Jr.'s parents tell me that if there are that many, they haven't heard about a single one of them. And the information that I have given you
01:07:14
Speaker
is all that they have ever heard about the case. The lack of progress has had its effect on all the family.
Emotional Toll and Call for Information
01:07:24
Speaker
Tony Sr. says that law enforcement, who now call his daughter rather than him, say he's caustic and hard to talk to because he's been jaded by what happened to his son.
01:07:37
Speaker
He tells me that what you see about crime on television and law enforcement staying focused until the criminal is behind bars is bogus and not at all what the real world is like. But as we spoke and he became overcome with emotion over his son, it's clear that he's not hard-hearted at all. It's lifelong love that creates his response.
01:08:05
Speaker
Lisa is heartbroken for her parents, who at ages 81 and 73 may not get the answers they desperately want. But she's also changed herself. With her own children, she told me that she never wants to leave them alone because that's how she felt when she didn't have her brother. While she's kept her loss private from her children, she said, quote,
01:08:33
Speaker
My kids don't have an uncle. There's a huge loss. It's not spoken, but it's felt on Thanksgiving and Christmas and every birthday." His loss has made her more cautious. She doesn't take risks and she always feels the missing piece even in her own tight knit family. It's Lisa's belief that the hurt for her mom
01:09:01
Speaker
has manifested itself in cancer, as her mother has bravely battled breast cancer, colon cancer, and now metastatic breast cancer. But Lisa knows that God saved her mom to help look after the grandchildren who adore her and whom she adores in return. As I mentioned in the introduction, the loss of a loved one can sometimes thrust us into darkness,
01:09:30
Speaker
wandering aimlessly as hope silently slips from her grasp, particularly if that loved one brought us so much laughter and so much light. Those were the very words that Tony's sister, Lisa, used to describe her brother, that he was light. She said to me on the phone, you know when you meet people and you can see God in them? I immediately thought of my grandma.
01:10:00
Speaker
and quietly responded, yes, I do. Lisa added, Tony had that. When you suffer loss and uncertainty the way the Arceoli family has, then even in moments of joy, Lisa surmised, quote, you don't forget that something's missing. For me, it's the smile he brought to the table. But when I see the same smile from my kids,
01:10:30
Speaker
You begin to see the light again. You find the light." End quote. It's a light I pray all of the Ursioli family can find to guide them through the darkness. There are people who know what happened to Tony Ursioli Jr. There are people who, if they come forward, could finally bring some answers to his family. Answers that his family are desperate to find.
01:10:57
Speaker
a battle that continually tries to eat away at their hope. According to Tony Arceoli, Sr. What could have mattered is this is a small hometown. This just doesn't happen. And the fact that the utter negligence in pursuing justice, it's egregious.
01:11:28
Speaker
yet if it was a gal, it'd be headline news. And the guy, it's just under the rug. Sluice Hounds, let's not let this story get swept under the rug again, but brought out into the open, talked about, and shared in ways that help his family to continually see the light because each one of us is doing our part in keeping that hope for answers alive.
01:11:57
Speaker
Anyone with information concerning the case is asked to call Detective Kilfoil of the Poughkeepsie Police Department at 845-485-3670.
01:12:33
Speaker
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