Transcript
Joe Dorhauer: Oh, oh, hey. I didn't see you there
Tyler Lawhon: Hello.
Joe Dorhauer: how How are you, Tyler? I was just reading. a I was just reading. Yeah. You know?
Tyler Lawhon: now Now that we have video, we're in trouble.
Joe Dorhauer: yeah there's so many bits are gonna come about it like i could have picked any number of
Tyler Lawhon: ah
Joe Dorhauer: like i don't know how many books it's not a crazy library or anything but You know, maybe like 100 books over there. I could have picked any of those, but I chose the... Great for my mini fridge.
Tyler Lawhon: There you go. There you go.
Joe Dorhauer: That's that I went with. I didn't wanna, you know. Do the phone. It's just hack. you know.
Tyler Lawhon: Right.
Joe Dorhauer: yeah How are you Tyler?
Tyler Lawhon: ah Dude. I'm doing all right. We've actually had a little bit of a little bit of cooler weather this week. so It's not been quite as bad driving with no AC.
Joe Dorhauer: Well... If. Our theory is correct that you get the weather of my... state like maybe a day and a half later Don't worry it's getting hot again.
Tyler Lawhon: You're welcome.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. it was cool for a little bit here but then like
Tyler Lawhon: Don't. don't Don't say that.
Joe Dorhauer: Right back into the... 105. uh heat index and next week it's i mean every day for the next like four days it's supposed to just get hotter and hotter
Tyler Lawhon: oh Boy All right, well. I guess I'll prepare myself.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Not as hot as the flames of hell.
Tyler Lawhon: ah
Joe Dorhauer: But, you know.
Tyler Lawhon: that You know? It's true. I think it's close though If if we're being honest, I think it's close.
Joe Dorhauer: You know, I had someone tell me, I know someone from Arizona that moved to St. Louis. And they told me that in.
Tyler Lawhon: Okay.
Joe Dorhauer: in Arizona. They have to crack their windows. Because when it gets too hot... It'll just. like blow up their windows basically in their car.
Joe Dorhauer: I didn't know that was a thing. Did you?
Tyler Lawhon: I did not. I do have a friend that lives in Arizona, though, so I can.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: I'll have to ask him.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Amen. You know. it kind of makes sense like hot air expands and You know? blow out the window. That doesn't sound very pleasant. but You know.
Joe Dorhauer: Excuse me. That's rude to do on a podcast in the first like. Three minutes. Um,
Tyler Lawhon: They're used to just.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Our show.
Joe Dorhauer: Just roll past it.
Tyler Lawhon: ah Wait.
Joe Dorhauer: Yep. Uh... Question for you, Tyler. Random question. since You know, you brought up hell even though I did. Uh,
Joe Dorhauer: What do you think? about people that What do you think about Annihilationists?
Tyler Lawhon: Oh boy. I didn't know we were doing this episode.
Joe Dorhauer: I didn't either.
Tyler Lawhon: Uh...
Joe Dorhauer: but Here we are. Do you think annihilationists are...
Tyler Lawhon: Um...
Joe Dorhauer: i'll let you I'll let you go with that.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah, um so, okay, my... My default stance would be... Uh... I can't affirm. Annihilationism.
Joe Dorhauer: Right.
Tyler Lawhon: Um,
Joe Dorhauer: define let's Let's define it further.
Tyler Lawhon: That said...
Joe Dorhauer: maybe people
Tyler Lawhon: Okay, so annihilationism is the idea that like... um There is not... Eternal conscious torment in hell. um but rather it is A short time.
Tyler Lawhon: where a sentence is basically paid and then you are annihilated. um There are varying opinions on how long that is.
Joe Dorhauer: Hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: Um, But. Yeah, but that that is... the opinion.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Do you think... Okay, well, I guess we shouldn't be... like pejorative but I guess I'll say. a Positive statement. I think. that Some of the people that...
Joe Dorhauer: take the view of an ah and ah but annihilationism. um do it to try and kind of soften the blow. of Eternal torment.
Joe Dorhauer: Like. Just the idea of hell. Um,
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah. I think so.
Joe Dorhauer: Because... That's... That's one of the big I don't know to me it's not a hard question to answer. Um...
Joe Dorhauer: Bye. why does god how can a good god send people to hell for eternity. Like. You know. ah
Tyler Lawhon: Right.
Joe Dorhauer: Don't get me wrong. Like. If you're an atheist, that's probably one of the questions you should be asking. Because... you know, from their perspective, all they really think about is, okay, God created me and now he's just going to send me to hell. What the heck?
Joe Dorhauer: And. I don't know. I think annihilationism is just kind of like an easy way out. of that.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: but As is often the case, the easy way out isn't really the... Correct way out. but
Tyler Lawhon: All
Joe Dorhauer: But I don't know I... I know there's kind of different views on annihilationism and stuff. I wouldn't go as far as to say like you're a heretic if you. or an annihilationist.
Tyler Lawhon: i Yeah, I...
Joe Dorhauer: necessarily.
Tyler Lawhon: So where I land on that is. I... Definitely don't think. that it is accurate.
Joe Dorhauer: m
Tyler Lawhon: Um, I feel like I could be talked into it. If someone tried hard enough. If that makes sense. Um, It's really more that I think it tends to... to lead to some other strange.
Tyler Lawhon: ah doctrines. that that tend to get embraced alongside it.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Um, And I've seen it happen where that that was kind of the stepping stone for... A very strange transition. ah So.
Joe Dorhauer: Hmm. I don't know. It just seems to me like. both biblically and just Logically. Like. There's too much.
Joe Dorhauer: biblical precedent for You know. Eternal punishment. that i don't I don't know if I can... i I'll just say i like I probably definitely won't be talked into that.
Joe Dorhauer: Because...
Tyler Lawhon: you Right, exactly.
Joe Dorhauer: you know There's some clear passages. And. I've had people try. to talk me into that. and you know kind of like we were talking about last show listen to the debates and stuff all the time and that's one of the topics that kind of comes up somewhat frequently on one of the podcasts I listen to. but Um.
Joe Dorhauer: I don't know. I just. It's not very compelling to me. It seems like you got to do a little bit of... Biblical gymnastics. to get there. But...
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, I don't know. It's...
Joe Dorhauer: I don't like I would I'd be interested to know the history of that. Like, when did that idea come about? I guess their argument would be. you know.
Joe Dorhauer: Like. First century. Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah. Well, and So like one of the. Main arguments. for it. I think is probably, you know, when Jesus talks about the the fire is. unceasing and and all this kind of stuff. And.
Tyler Lawhon: To that. The response that I got was, well. sure the fire is unquenched but That doesn't mean the people are there the whole time. And I was like. um
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, but that's a warning passage.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah, I guess. I know.
Joe Dorhauer: like
Tyler Lawhon: Like I.
Joe Dorhauer: It's not a very good warning if he just says, hey, there's this fire in this place. And it's not going to stop.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. I don't know
Tyler Lawhon: I mean, like you'll stop, but like, you know.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, and but the fire's still going.
Tyler Lawhon: Like I said, I... I could be talked into it if. If you tried hard enough and long enough. Like. I can understand.
Tyler Lawhon: the the logic behind the position. I just I'm not there yet. And like you said, you know, with something like. Like that passage where it's a warning, it seems. It seems like it's a warning for a reason
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's more of an emotional argument than... Like actually a biblical one, you know.
Tyler Lawhon: I agree. yeah
Joe Dorhauer: Like. You know, you think about the grandma. Next door neighbor. that isn't a christian but she bakes you cookies every week and She seems like a nice lady.
Joe Dorhauer: How could that lady be in hell? And. You know, I mean the answer from the Christian. perspective is Extremely obvious.
Joe Dorhauer: You know? It. You're not. Good. Nobody's good. That grandma's not good. Um,
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, you can you can bake as many cookies as you want for the kids next door and that's not gonna Earn you eternity with God.
Tyler Lawhon: Well, and you know, that's... That's something I feel like we we probably touched on last ah episode as well. just This idea that like. It's not good enough to be good enough.
Joe Dorhauer: Mm hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: You know, like. there's There's not even a way that you can be. So... trying to justify like well you know like I've lived a...
Tyler Lawhon: good life. And so, you know, whenever I stand before God, if if he's real, then... We'll be okay, you know.
Joe Dorhauer: Hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: And it's like No.
Joe Dorhauer: Well, he told you you wouldn't be, so...
Tyler Lawhon: Right, yeah exactly. Ahem.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, it's like the ah parable of the rich man and Lazarus. You know. Like. They have my words and if they don't believe those they won't even believe it but if a man is raised from the dead And.
Tyler Lawhon: Right.
Joe Dorhauer: um yeah that was correct because you know jesus was risen from the dead and they still don't believe it But.
Tyler Lawhon: they They sure didn't.
Joe Dorhauer: Anyway.
Tyler Lawhon: They hated him. Because he spoke the truth.
Joe Dorhauer: Yep.
Tyler Lawhon: Or whatever the meme is.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: ah
Joe Dorhauer: ah That one just...
Tyler Lawhon: Oh.
Joe Dorhauer: I dunno that one. But you know me I'm not on the social medias.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah. no that's true That's true. I feel like you're you're probably more on social media now that. we've been doing the show than you were before that
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know when we first started the... x or twitter or whatever you want to call it for this show I... ah Like I would go on there and I would like.
Joe Dorhauer: scroll on stuff and you know, maybe people have noticed that we don't really post a whole lot on there. That's because... I like. I don't know, man. You just fall back into the spider web.
Joe Dorhauer: So quickly. And it's like, I'm getting. upset about stuff that Probably bots are posting. intentionally, like... manufactured to make people like me upset.
Tyler Lawhon: Right.
Joe Dorhauer: And it's like, what's the point? You know? I'm not trying to hate on anybody, by the way. that is on social media.
Tyler Lawhon: You're just saying you get easily rage baited. I understand.
Joe Dorhauer: Totally, yeah. Like, this is my flaw. I am the man. Uh,
Tyler Lawhon: ah
Joe Dorhauer: I don't know why you're laughing I'm talking about me.
Tyler Lawhon: Right, yeah, exactly
Joe Dorhauer: But uh...
Tyler Lawhon: Well, you know, it makes me think of who is that brilliant philosopher? ah Taylor Swift has said, it's me.
Joe Dorhauer: Oh, fuck.
Tyler Lawhon: I'm the problem. It's me.
Joe Dorhauer: Yes, yes. Dr. Taylor Swift.
Tyler Lawhon: Doctor.
Joe Dorhauer: yeah
Tyler Lawhon: That's Mrs. Dr. Taylor Swift.
Joe Dorhauer: Yes, yes How is she?
Tyler Lawhon: ah
Joe Dorhauer: Did they get married? her in the Football player again. I do.
Tyler Lawhon: um I think so.
Joe Dorhauer: Okay, so it is Mrs.
Tyler Lawhon: But you know, I Yeah, here's the thing, Joe. here's Let me tell you something about myself. I don't care about Taylor Swift.
Joe Dorhauer: No.
Tyler Lawhon: Or really, any celebrity gossip news. I don't care.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: you You can't pay me enough to care.
Joe Dorhauer: Well, you know what Tyler? We were both young when I first saw you. Okay.
Tyler Lawhon: something Something slam of screen doors.
Joe Dorhauer: Uh. Yeah, sure. I don't know
Joe Dorhauer: That's a lie, by the way. we were Not young when I first saw you, but.
Tyler Lawhon: ah Really, we were old.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, we're old. We were just guys, just a... Just to bring you in on the pre -show. Like. I don't know. Maybe people think we prep or whatever. Probably obvious that we don't.
Joe Dorhauer: but we're just like both in the camera like oh look at my gray hairs and my beard
Tyler Lawhon: well you know my uh My birthday was this past Thursday, and I am...
Joe Dorhauer: mm -hmm
Tyler Lawhon: officially 33 years old, which... Um, as my dear friend, Justin.
Joe Dorhauer: He made it.
Tyler Lawhon: whom you all have heard from before. ah he He informed me that... That was how old ah Frodo was. when he set off on his adventure to take the ring to Mount Doom.
Joe Dorhauer: Mm.
Tyler Lawhon: um But it is also the official age of adulthood. In Hobbit society. So I'm an adult Hobbit now. And quite frankly.
Joe Dorhauer: You're a young man.
Tyler Lawhon: There is nothing more that... Sounds... appealing to me than staying at home, living in a hole in the ground. Growing vegetables, smoking a pipe, just having a great time.
Joe Dorhauer: Eating some sort of stews, yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah. just Just doing that sounds fantastic.
Joe Dorhauer: well you can't do that now now you have to Take the ring to... The place.
Tyler Lawhon: No, no.
Joe Dorhauer: you know, with the guy and the thing, and you got to throw it in there.
Tyler Lawhon: no i don't volunteer to take it i'll be honest
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, I... ah I probably read that book when I was like 10. It's been a while. Maybe I should... Maybe I should get the book and read it with my kids.
Tyler Lawhon: I, okay, so I... if If we're going to do... um admissions. here. um I have never read Lord of the Rings I have seen the movies. I have not read it.
Tyler Lawhon: um Actually, I am working slowly. Unfortunately. Um, through reading The Hobbit. to my children.
Joe Dorhauer: Hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: and they are thoroughly enjoying it Um,
Joe Dorhauer: Is the hobbit? After. the events of the other books
Tyler Lawhon: No, it is before.
Joe Dorhauer: Okay. It's a prequel.
Tyler Lawhon: So.
Joe Dorhauer: Gotcha.
Tyler Lawhon: Yes, so it's... ah Well, I can't believe, ah you know. in the year of our lord 2026 i'm having to explain this, but...
Joe Dorhauer: yeah
Tyler Lawhon: ah So it's it's about Bilbo. ah who is Frodo's uncle.
Joe Dorhauer: Yes.
Tyler Lawhon: So.
Joe Dorhauer: So it's just his life before.
Tyler Lawhon: Yes, it's the story.
Joe Dorhauer: Gotcha.
Tyler Lawhon: So... In. In the Lord of the Rings, and in the Fellowship of the Ring. ah Bilbo decides to go away. Um,
Tyler Lawhon: And he he kind of reveals that to everybody at his birthday party. When he, uh... He disappears in front of everybody, you know?
Joe Dorhauer: No. I don't
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah. I guess it's been that long since you've been there. or since since you've read it.
Joe Dorhauer: ah Man, I... Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Okay, so he disappears in front of everybody because he has the ring. And. So then he he decides he's gonna... gonna leave for a while and he ends up leaving frodo the ring And that's when Gandalf discovers that he has the ring. And he's like. oh you know
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: So. But again, this is all from my knowledge of the movies. Which, by the way, my wonderful wife... gave me. For my birthday.
Tyler Lawhon: Um, The Lord of the Rings. ah theatrical and extended additions. additions ahs It's a one box set trilogy.
Tyler Lawhon: in 4k Blu -ray
Joe Dorhauer: And that'll take you what?
Tyler Lawhon: So I am.
Joe Dorhauer: Five weeks if you sat down and watch it straight through
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah, exactly. um It's definitely. um you You definitely spend a whole day. like start to finish if you like And I mean, like you wake up, you turn it on, and...
Tyler Lawhon: It's nighttime by the time you're done.
Joe Dorhauer: m
Tyler Lawhon: you And then some it like it's, it's long.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: They're like what, four hours long or something like that each. So it's totally worth it though.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Totally worth it.
Joe Dorhauer: You know, everybody's arguing. Uh... ah Wow, I just blanked. Tolkien versus Lewis. But where's Bunyan in these arguments, man?
Joe Dorhauer: Come on.
Tyler Lawhon: but was was Was he in in on the group?
Joe Dorhauer: Pilgrim's Progress? I mean, he wasn't a...
Tyler Lawhon: Oh yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, he wasn't.
Tyler Lawhon: well
Joe Dorhauer: A contemporary of the two.
Tyler Lawhon: Because Tolkien and Lewis were friends, you know?
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, they were contemporaries, but... bunion Bunyan laid the framework, man. Come on. I love Pilgrim's Progress so much.
Tyler Lawhon: Oh it's great.
Joe Dorhauer: i read I read that one yearly, which is not nearly as impressive as reading.
Tyler Lawhon: It's such a good one.
Joe Dorhauer: either Lord of the Rings or you know, Lion, Witch and Wardrobe. stuff.
Tyler Lawhon: Well, my... So the... the The bad thing is... Here's my current reading project. but And I'm like super far behind this. But.
Joe Dorhauer: Ah nice.
Tyler Lawhon: um It's really good. ah the parts that I have read. Um... But i'm I'm just going to go ahead and apologize. Pete. If you're listening and I.
Tyler Lawhon: I know you are. Let's be real. I know you are.
Joe Dorhauer: and
Tyler Lawhon: Um, I'm sorry, I'm super far behind. I have not had the time. Um, Things have been crazy. So love you, Pete.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: No excuses.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: um Yeah, I've been reading.
Tyler Lawhon: No.
Joe Dorhauer: Um, It's cold. I think it's called Augustine and the Pelagian Controversy. It's a Warfield book.
Tyler Lawhon: Mm, okay.
Joe Dorhauer: And. Really good. Really good stuff. I mean... you know that's kind of one that's really easy to get behind but
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: Like. I'm not going to sit there and mull over. Hmm. Was Pelagius right or was Augustus? Yeah. Like. One of the sides was definitely right.
Joe Dorhauer: And. it wasn't the pelagian side i'll just put it that way
Tyler Lawhon: Right. right Oh man. No, it's so Pilgrim's Progress was another funny one. I was trying to read that one to my kids. and That one was harder for them to sit through.
Joe Dorhauer: m
Tyler Lawhon: Um... My oldest ended up. grabbing it and reading it through and and thoroughly enjoyed it. Um. but yeah everybody else was just like Oh man.
Tyler Lawhon: can we can we be done you know And of course, my wife has been reading the Redwall series with them.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: um And they're they're very much enjoying that as well. So I have a bunch of readers in my house though, like. they They read far more than I do. um they're
Joe Dorhauer: That's...
Tyler Lawhon: all voracious readers.
Joe Dorhauer: That's awesome though. Yeah, we've been Going through um the wing feather. Chronicles. Which is... Highly recommended by me. I got...
Joe Dorhauer: Again. Appreciate it, Pete. He's the one that suggested it to me. Um, But yeah, you know, like kids. Fantasy. book. Really good stuff.
Joe Dorhauer: um But. We don't really, ah you know, like I. I work a whole lot and I wish we would read every single night, but. Unfortunately, we don't get the opportunity to, so we've restarted.
Joe Dorhauer: A couple times, but... Yeah, still really good
Tyler Lawhon: That's okay. That's okay.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. But yeah, the pi the the nice thing about Pilgrim's Progress is it's fairly short.
Tyler Lawhon: It is.
Joe Dorhauer: Um,
Tyler Lawhon: um But it's... It's packed though.
Joe Dorhauer: Oh yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Like, it's not just short like it's it's. There's a lot going on.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and there's action and, you know, it's a... It's a very well -written book. i Do they say... i'm not sure if I'm getting this right.
Joe Dorhauer: I think they say that they consider that like the first Uh, I don't know if it's the first American novel or the first novel. I don't know. Something like that.
Tyler Lawhon: um Yeah, I don't know. I'd have to look into that.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, something like that. Nah, just trust me.
Tyler Lawhon: I would say. Eh...
Joe Dorhauer: Just start saying it to everybody.
Tyler Lawhon: I mean really?
Tyler Lawhon: No, that would never mind. never mind i I was going to make a joke about Joseph Smith, but...
Joe Dorhauer: Oh no. Hey, Bunyan was before him.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah, well that's why I kind of gave up on it.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: I was like, ah never mind. I shouldn't have said anything. ah
Joe Dorhauer: The first American fiction novel was The Book of Mormon.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, man. i um
Tyler Lawhon: It's got quite a cult following if you.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Oh, that's... Yep. Little on the nose there, Tyler.
Tyler Lawhon: Like literally.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. I think it was on our show. When we were talking to Jesse. Speaking of cults. And. He was talking about. Uh, How?
Joe Dorhauer: Actually, I was going to say it was Jehovah's Witnesses. It was actually Mormons. Some Mormons knocked on his door. Was this... Was that on this?
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah, that was with Jeff.
Joe Dorhauer: Okay.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was ah you know he was talking about it on... Reformed Brotherhood or... if We talked to him about it. But. Um. I had some Mormons.
Joe Dorhauer: There's this. these two Mormon elders that... Au revoir. frequently frequently at one of my stops. And.
Joe Dorhauer: Stupid excuse. but You know. I work a lot I really feel like I should go talk to them. But... I don't because I'm trying to get it done and, you know, get home to my family. and spend more than like half an hour with my kids.
Tyler Lawhon: right
Joe Dorhauer: Again, stupid excuse. like It doesn't take that long to go over there and just. You know. Plant a seed. Maybe we can talk about evangelism in a second. But, um... But yeah, anyway, i was gonna I really thought they were going to come over and talk to me.
Joe Dorhauer: End. Sort of offended that they haven't. I mean, what are what the heck? am i that off -putting that they don't want to see me have my own planet with my own many wives to populate the planet? Come on.
Joe Dorhauer: Uh... Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Well, they're not going to tell you that to start with.
Joe Dorhauer: no No, no, no, no. That's like step 27.
Tyler Lawhon: Although i I really feel like. they would They would get more followers if they started there.
Joe Dorhauer: yeah No, they always start with like the family thing you know. Oh, those Christians don't believe that. family exists and have or whatever they say. and You know, we believe that family is eternal.
Joe Dorhauer: you know You have that core family for the and they don't tell you that. What they mean by family is. polygamy and you know. All that stuff, but. Um,
Joe Dorhauer: Where was I going? Anyway, yeah, I was going to employ Jesse's strategy. And. I think it's in...
Joe Dorhauer: I'm going to butcher this, but it might be in. Nephi. Or something. And Joseph Smith. Right. writes, um Basically, you're saved after all that you can do.
Tyler Lawhon: Mhm. Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: And. I've never gotten to use that and the real world. Usually I just talk about like. you know, how it's... objectively false and You know.
Joe Dorhauer: Thank you. realistically, I kind of always use the same arguments that I use against Muslims. Because they kind of have the same arguments against. Orthodox Christianity.
Joe Dorhauer: Which is that, oh yeah, your Bible's been corrupted. Ours is better. Because we picked and chose which ones we like and agree with our. You know. Additional. scriptures.
Tyler Lawhon: Right.
Joe Dorhauer: Um, Yeah. So that's usually the... the lane I go down, but I really liked how. You know. through that you're kind of Like. There's no deniability there like he's just quoting what it says
Tyler Lawhon: Rutwood Wright. That's... Yeah. i That was something that like I used to listen to the the cultish. podcast a lot.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Yep.
Tyler Lawhon: Um, And that was something they always kind of brought up was being able to use. their own Like even even with like Jehovah's Witnesses as well. um using some of the stuff from their own. Translation.
Tyler Lawhon: to to point out how it's wrong because like They didn't catch everything when they translated it, basically.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Yeah, and in case anybody was curious, it is 2 Nephi 25, 23. Um,
Tyler Lawhon: There you go.
Joe Dorhauer: And it says it. It is by grace that we are saved after all we can do, which is. Quite the oxymoron. Yeah. considering Paul said pretty much the exact opposite.
Joe Dorhauer: By grace, you have been saved through faith. This and is not of your own doing. that no one may boast. Literally the exact opposite, but...
Tyler Lawhon: Well, you know and And right before that, by the way, the wages of sin is death, you know?
Joe Dorhauer: That's probably one of the corrupted ones. Yeah. Yep.
Tyler Lawhon: Well, and but that's that's a cornerstone for. Literally every cult. Um,
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Even including... you know and and not exclusively obviously but um Bislam.
Joe Dorhauer: Oh yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: so is is the exact same thing. By the way, they didn't get everything right. um Let me tell you what really happened, you know.
Joe Dorhauer: Hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: And, and then that's. That's when you get. They're copious problems.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Well, even when you look at something like Buddhism, which... You know. From the outside looking in... It appeals to a lot of people because they don't really...
Joe Dorhauer: Like the. the The perspective most people have on Christianity is that, oh, well, these guys are just going to give me a bunch of rules and stuff that I can't do. and Prohibit my fun.
Joe Dorhauer: But... Even Buddhism, it's like... you know, the karmic cycle. Well, that's just workspace salvation. you know If you're going to be reincarnated as a...
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: cricket if you're not good enough or whatever. That's literally just workspace salvation.
Tyler Lawhon: Well, I mean, Buddhism isn't.
Joe Dorhauer: It's the same thing repackaged.
Tyler Lawhon: interesting study on Uh... combining influence anyway. Because there's, I mean. There's a ah lot in Hinduism that's... The same thing.
Joe Dorhauer: Oh yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: You know.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Um, Like they they they rely heavily on the karmic cycle
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: But. Yeah, no, it... Learning about... you know, these, these quote unquote. Christian cults. it's It's very fascinating to me.
Tyler Lawhon: Um, especially when you consider A lot of them started around the same time.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Um,
Joe Dorhauer: Well, a lot of them have the same. Um, Like they're kind of all connected to the same group of people.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah. Well, it's like, you know, ah what is it? Seventh -day Adventism. Um,
Joe Dorhauer: Christian Science.
Tyler Lawhon: Mormonism, Christian science, Jehovah's Witness. And there might even be another one. They were all like... right around the same like in the like mid to late 1800s
Joe Dorhauer: Mm hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: There was just like this boom of.
Joe Dorhauer: Well, Scientology was too, wasn't it? I mean, I wouldn't call that a... christian Cold.
Tyler Lawhon: Well...
Joe Dorhauer: It's its own thing, but...
Tyler Lawhon: No, that that would have been... um
Tyler Lawhon: Shoot when was that that was like what the 1980s or 1990s?
Joe Dorhauer: Was it that late? Okay, I'm off.
Tyler Lawhon: I could be off. Um, as well. But I know for sure. um That it was not. that early. Um, cause cause.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction author.
Joe Dorhauer: Mm hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: So.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. and You know, it's always interesting and
Tyler Lawhon: ah The 50s. Sorry.
Joe Dorhauer: Oh, okay. Well...
Tyler Lawhon: Sorry. so
Joe Dorhauer: You were a lot closer than I was. um But it's interesting. you know, looking at all these cult leaders and like the evident flaws that they have.
Joe Dorhauer: ah You know, even if you look at. leader, like not even. Christian. ah my My hands are going to get tired with all these. Air quotes.
Joe Dorhauer: Um, Christian. Colts. But even if you look at just like straight up. false religions. Um, You know, usually it's tied to a guy that is like.
Joe Dorhauer: really obviously either a con man, like in Joseph Smith's case. or whatever it is, you know. Like... Muhammad. we could point out. All kinds of very terrible things like...
Joe Dorhauer: a very young bride he had and all kinds of stuff. um I don't know. It's just really interesting. like the lengths of Um, Like.
Joe Dorhauer: The willingness of people to blind themselves to. obvious lies in order to deny God. And. you know, really.
Joe Dorhauer: Like. I guess some people in the comments aren't going to like me saying this. but Kind of like we talked about in the last episode. Atheists... do really the same thing.
Joe Dorhauer: Um, It doesn't matter. If you think you are or you're not, but you're worshiping something. And. Whether it's yourself. um What's the Bible verse that says they like? they worship their own stomachs or something like that.
Tyler Lawhon: who Um...
Joe Dorhauer: Um,
Tyler Lawhon: Their belly is their god.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Yeah. um I mean, there's plenty of ways to. To worship your... No matter what, you're worshiping something. And.
Joe Dorhauer: You know, there's only one
Joe Dorhauer: entity that deserves worship in the first place.
Joe Dorhauer: But... Yeah, I don't know, man. ah I was actually recently talking to my coworker about this. And. He was asking me, like, why is it that... So many.
Joe Dorhauer: different. you know Because he'll ask questions all the time about this or that, Jehovah's Witnesses, whatever it is. What's the difference between me and them? And he's like, well, why is it that?
Joe Dorhauer: You know, there's so many different groups that. You say our... Wrong. and I guess really we should probably. As Christians, like watch the way we talk sometimes because.
Joe Dorhauer: You know like Obviously, I think Roman Catholics are wrong about a whole lot. But. There's a difference.
Tyler Lawhon: Sorry Jake.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, sorry Sorry Jake. uh He's well aware that I feel that way, so that's all right.
Tyler Lawhon: Right, I'm sure
Joe Dorhauer: Um, But there's a difference between a church. That is a prostate. that once was I would say within the camp.
Joe Dorhauer: and still has people in it that are in the camp. And something that started out as totally something different. And it's really hard to explain that to people that You know, don't really.
Joe Dorhauer: understand how big of a deal like theology proper for example is you take ah You know, mor Mormonism or Jehovah's Witnesses or Islam or whatever, you know, all of them claim Jesus. Everybody wants to claim Jesus.
Joe Dorhauer: They all want them. They all want to say, oh, well, he was just a great prophet. Or. you know He was a great monk. Or, you know, he traveled to India and did drugs and all kinds of stuff like there's There's people that legitimately believe that.
Joe Dorhauer: Um, But no, Jesus clearly claimed to be God. Like. No ifs, ands or buts about it. I don't care. When you personally date. the book of john to be you can look at Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and there's plenty in there.
Joe Dorhauer: for you to realize that, yeah. The liar. lunatic or lord. Um, Try. What's the word I'm looking for? Try Luma. That's the word I'm looking for.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: That, um... Lewis. came up with is A good one. Um, like Those are really the only three options.
Joe Dorhauer: And. Yeah, without that, you know you don't have the... proper theology, proper. Maybe I should have worded that differently. And that puts you outside of the camp. You you believe in a different God.
Joe Dorhauer: Um, Of course, with all those that i just mentioned there's plenty of other stuff that puts them outside of the camp as well But. you know For example, like... Oneness Pentecostals.
Joe Dorhauer: Um, i kind of I kind of described this in... Please tell me to shut up Tyler You can mute me. You have that power.
Tyler Lawhon: I do have that power, but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna keep going.
Joe Dorhauer: So do it. Okay. I kind of use the... picture of like a pyramid. So at the base of the pyramid is your essentials. you know, soteriology.
Joe Dorhauer: Maybe not everything in it. But. How we're saved. That's in there. Theology proper. That's in there. And you know there's some debate, I guess, on what stuff is essential.
Joe Dorhauer: And. Anytime this argument comes about, one side brings up the thief on the cross and then the other side brings up all kinds of other stuff. I'm not like... advocating for putting a whole lot in that bottom pyramid. The size of it isn't what I'm trying to...
Joe Dorhauer: paint a picture of. But the bottom of the pyramid, you have those. And then up above that, maybe you have things like baptism. Or. um what I don't know. like I'm blanking on some secondary stuff. Eschatology is probably. even further up than that but anyway the point is if that stuff at the base of the pyramid is off If your foundation is off.
Joe Dorhauer: Then it's gonna crack and the whole thing is gonna crumble it's going to affect everything above it. So if your soteriology is off then this is going to be off which causes this to be off which causes this to be off And. ah Yeah, that's, I mean...
Joe Dorhauer: Bad theology hurts people. I'll quote Coltish.
Tyler Lawhon: That's all right. That's all right. Well, and and so. Hmm. When you were talking about. The the oneness Pentecostalism it definitely brought to mind this so kind of for everyone else's benefit when we talk about You know if if we ever make the statement along the lines of like, that that group is not Christian.
Joe Dorhauer: Hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: Or something like, please understand that like. that is what we're basing it off of. It's going to be this position of. If. If you can't affirm,
Tyler Lawhon: these essential truths about God than we're talking about something else entirely.
Joe Dorhauer: Hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: we We can't say, like and and I actually i backed out of a a ministry that I was a part of for a while. Um, um Because as I started really... thinking about and examining it. it became really hard to...
Tyler Lawhon: link arms with these guys that came from a bunch of different denominational backgrounds and i i Please don't misunderstand me. I love them all dearly. They were wonderful, wonderful guys.
Tyler Lawhon: Um. But it's one of those things where it's like if we're going, especially into like a prison context, and because this is a prison ministry.
Tyler Lawhon: if If we're going into a prison. And we are, you know. linking arms and and proclaiming the gospel. And we we say...
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah, we're from all these different churches that teach all these different things, but really we're all preaching the same gospel, but we're not. Or just not.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: And so when I run into a situation where like. primarily it was a lot of you know non -denominational Um... you know basically loosely Baptist guys.
Tyler Lawhon: And then. There were several Catholics and. um A few others. But the big thing for me was... was linking arms with the Catholic. Where...
Tyler Lawhon: on on a very surface level we can say yes we we believe the same stuff but as you really dig down it's like okay so we have a fundamental difference in understanding.
Tyler Lawhon: how the gospel operates. And how... how we are saved. And so I can't, in good conscience and in good faith...
Tyler Lawhon: say, You know to these guys that are you know inmates at this prison? Yeah, we're we're all. coming to share the gospel because we're at At its core, we're...
Tyler Lawhon: preaching different things.
Tyler Lawhon: And so like, and and of course, you know. i've I've heard R .C. Sproul's talks about... Um, you know being ecumenical and And I think you can to a point, but when you...
Tyler Lawhon: When you run into something where it's like, I can't. I can't link arms with a Oneness Pentecostal.
Joe Dorhauer: right
Tyler Lawhon: I don't believe in a... single, you know, Not Trinity.
Joe Dorhauer: Unitarian.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah, I'm not Unitarian.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: I can't affirm that. And so when we talk about God, we're talking about different things.
Joe Dorhauer: Mm hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: We're talking past each other. It's not the same language, you know. And so... you know and more so like when we talk about you know, the the Catholic understanding versus the Protestant understanding. We're talking about different things. We mean different things. We're saying different things.
Tyler Lawhon: And so like. I can love them dearly, but... be able to say like We're not. We're not the same.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: And in some cases. Those are just people that just aren't Christian, but think they are.
Joe Dorhauer: Mm hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: And we should pray for them. you know
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, definitely. and It's so difficult with Roman Catholics. because And I... By the way. I tend to say either.
Joe Dorhauer: Roman Catholic or Papist on purpose? because the word Catholic means something, and I don't think it's cool that they stole it. But... ah
Joe Dorhauer: But... It's so difficult with... roman catholics because you know you don't actually know if that person act They might. agree on you agree with you on way more than the official church like roman catholic church's position on the subject It... it So much depends on the individual, maybe the parish they go to, the teaching they receive.
Joe Dorhauer: Um, It's really difficult with them. But with a oneness Pentecostal. It's not difficult. It's not hard at all That's a different God. uh early in my faith, I was maybe I would say probably two years into my faith. so like You know.
Joe Dorhauer: Um. What, 20 years old? ah twenty one Something like that. And I got this new job and one of the other. Workers there was a oneness Pentecostal.
Joe Dorhauer: And at first I kind of tried to. Do the ecumenical. I didn't even really understand. Like I knew what trinityity the the word Trinity meant. But I had no idea how that.
Joe Dorhauer: And, you know. People say. obviously all the time. And it's true. you're never going to. fully wrap your head around the Trinity. Because there's nothing in creation.
Joe Dorhauer: that is like God. There is no. i don't care what hypothetical you come up with whether it's the egg which is You know, turns out. heretical thing to say about the trinity or water.
Joe Dorhauer: and water vapor and ice again Like that's just modalism.
Joe Dorhauer: There's nothing in creation that is like God. There is nothing that is... One. and also three. And.
Tyler Lawhon: Intentionally. I think.
Joe Dorhauer: Absolutely. And you know you can find a trinity of things. all over creation. which I think is awesome. and also intentional But it's not.
Joe Dorhauer: the same as the Trinity.
Tyler Lawhon: It's not triune.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. it there's no it's not
Tyler Lawhon: Right.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, exactly. Um, This is busy. There's some s specs
Tyler Lawhon: yeah I got some dust floating around. I don't know what's going on.
Joe Dorhauer: Um. but Uh... Like. By the grace of God, I would say I wasn't influenced by that person. and you know, i literally like at that point, I hadn't even gone to church yet, which.
Joe Dorhauer: was Bye. own mistake like i should have gone to church right away Didn't go to church for quite a while after I became a Christian. um But it was literally just like me and my Bible. And by God's grace.
Joe Dorhauer: His word was sufficient for me to. Pick apart that argument And. yeah i mean it's Again, like.
Joe Dorhauer: It's kind of the easy road to an answer to a question You know, if the skeptic asks you, well, is your God three or is your God, or, you know, the Muslim, they love to do the same thing. It's funny how Muslims take the same arguments as atheists all the time.
Joe Dorhauer: But... Is your God three? Is your God one? in the quran that's That's... Like strictly. written about like, you cannot believe in a Trinity.
Joe Dorhauer: It's... it's haram i think is there word for it. But... um Yeah, any the easy answer would be, oh, well, actually, God's just... Just... One God.
Joe Dorhauer: And, you know, obviously the. People of the Old Testament believe that too. even though there's plenty of Um. Examples. from the Old Testament that you can point to where it's completely obvious.
Joe Dorhauer: i mean there's like the obvious let us make man in our image and then um Sodom and Gomorrah. uh, There's... What psalm is it? ah Is it 110? I don't know. The Lord said to my, yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: It's 110. The Lord said to my Lord, Like there's really obvious examples and actually. It's kind of funny because... Um... All right.
Joe Dorhauer: you know i don't really know what to think about um, What? What? Would a... Pre. Christ's earthly ministry do you have to believe?
Joe Dorhauer: as far as theology proper goes, to be saved. But I do know that there were at least. A significant number of Benitarian... ah Jewish theologians pre -Christ.
Joe Dorhauer: So... they would believe that God was at least... Baiyun instead of triune? Is that a word? I don't know. You understand what I'm saying.
Tyler Lawhon: I do. I do.
Joe Dorhauer: because of those same passages. I mean, it's... You have multiple persons that call themselves Yahweh. and refer to themselves.
Joe Dorhauer: in ways that only God does. and you know accept worship, which only God is qualified to do. And yet you have. constantly throughout. scripture.
Joe Dorhauer: you know the shema Shema Yisrael Yahweh. a kid. you weigh a card. I think is how it goes. Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Tyler Lawhon: Right. Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: I love the Shema. I used to know the whole thing in Hebrew.
Tyler Lawhon: ah ah
Joe Dorhauer: Because I... it's just i don't know it's just kind of beautiful and also it's kind of a flex to just
Tyler Lawhon: It's just without some Hebrew.
Joe Dorhauer: Pop out the whole Shema in Hebrew. Yeah, even though I don't know it. But... ah Yeah. But yeah, like. You have this constant call that.
Joe Dorhauer: of three persons calling themselves And, you know. then we could get into modalism and all that fun stuff but One easy one.
Joe Dorhauer: to deny is oneness Pentecostals.
Tyler Lawhon: Yep. Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: I mean, you run into problems pretty quickly at during Jesus' ministry on earth. You know, the Mount of Transfiguration, the the baptism.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: There's some problems there if you're trying to affirm oneness.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, well, even modalism doesn't make sense because like... Well, I don't know. I guess their answer to this would be that they still believe in the hypostatic union. Like if Jesus is...
Joe Dorhauer: you know If... if Jesus is on earth. i get yeah i mean i guess that would be their answer just a hypostatic union but i've never heard a I've talked to a few Onus Pentecostals, and I've never heard them.
Joe Dorhauer: talk about. Uh... the hypostatic union.
Tyler Lawhon: Well, okay.
Joe Dorhauer: I don't think.
Tyler Lawhon: So the problem is I've run in the the the circles where...
Joe Dorhauer: They...
Tyler Lawhon: I hadn't heard about the hypostatic union until...
Tyler Lawhon: Until just a few years ago.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Which, you know. That's not you know
Tyler Lawhon: Thank you. It was one of those things where it was like, i okay, I very quickly figured out what they were talking about, but I never heard it referred to as the hypostatic union.
Joe Dorhauer: Right, yeah
Tyler Lawhon: you know being being um How is it that that Jesse put it? Truly God and truly man.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Um, rather than to say fully God and fully man.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: But. um Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: he's ah He's a math guy, so he doesn't like...
Tyler Lawhon: He is he is
Joe Dorhauer: I think he's correct. but
Tyler Lawhon: i Yeah. well and again it's one of those things where it's like okay so we have to especially, you know, for us in our modern English speaking context.
Tyler Lawhon: How do we describe the indescribable?
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Yeah, well, and language is inherently... Like even. this is This is going to sound crazy to some. But... Even...
Joe Dorhauer: The language of the... Bible is accommodative. Like it's not exhaustive of who God is because it. can't be. Language can't describe.
Joe Dorhauer: You can say God is holy. And I promise you like that. He's way beyond. whatever you think the word holy means. You can say God is gracious. That word doesn't begin to describe.
Joe Dorhauer: what God is.
Tyler Lawhon: Right gracious is gracious because god You know?
Joe Dorhauer: ah
Tyler Lawhon: ah You would have to kind of take that sort of stance. You know. Holiness is holiness because God is holy. and like he is therefore the definition of what holiness is
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: you know.
Joe Dorhauer: It's like a mirror.
Tyler Lawhon: But I mean... But I mean, I mean The Ten Commandments, you know, morality itself. All of that stems from... God's being.
Joe Dorhauer: Mm hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: and and who he is, you know. So it's like.
Tyler Lawhon: of course you know it's that's what it is like if you think about it long enough you're like well Duh. You know?
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: ah
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. and And again, like the... pull it back to kind of what we were talking about earlier I think. that's an important thing to remember When. the atheist charges you with, oh, well, you're just...
Joe Dorhauer: you know, Your church is just... um behavior control. so you know when you accuse the atheists of not having any grounds for morality.
Joe Dorhauer: then they'll just say, oh, well. you know how did god even come up with these laws for us he's just trying to it's the man trying to hold us down or whatever That's something good to keep in your back pocket is no. These aren't just arbitrary rules.
Joe Dorhauer: This flows from the character of God. And we participate in them because we're made in the image of God. And in so doing, we... glorify God.
Tyler Lawhon: Right. Exactly. Ah. God is really cool though.
Joe Dorhauer: Cool doesn't even begin to describe.
Tyler Lawhon: It is egg.
Joe Dorhauer: how yeah
Tyler Lawhon: Coolness is only coolness because God is so cool. yeah ah No, it's definitely one of those like.
Joe Dorhauer: a
Tyler Lawhon: Ahem. I might have even mentioned this on the show. before. But I remember I was driving home. It was probably from. Um, like a Wednesday night church service or or something.
Tyler Lawhon: I was driving home and... um It actually sparked. the idea of of having a night of worship at our church. at my previous church where I was a worship leader. Because I was driving home.
Tyler Lawhon: And I was listening to this preacher. on the radio. And he was talking about like longing for home. And I found myself caught up in this. like longing for.
Tyler Lawhon: What's it going to be like?
Joe Dorhauer: Hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: And then I thought about... and and And this will probably show some of my. More charismatic roots. um There's a song. Called taste of eternity Um...
Tyler Lawhon: I'm I'm. Drawing a blank. Bella Reeve. It was the band. And so that was actually kind of the... the song that kind of inspired our our night of worship that we did.
Tyler Lawhon: Um. But it was talking about. This this taste of eternity. and and as we sing together and and and i got to thinking about that like every Every time we gather and the saints sing.
Tyler Lawhon: It is that taste.
Joe Dorhauer: Hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: And we get just that smallest little bit. And so every once in a while. you know, in a similar vein, we get. just little glimpses of of how Truly incredible. God is.
Tyler Lawhon: Um, But it's just a taste.
Joe Dorhauer: yeah
Tyler Lawhon: It's just the slightest sample, you know, even even Moses experience with God was. Like I can't let you see my face
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: but I'm going to hide you in the cleft of this rock and I'm going to walk past you. And then you can see me from behind. And that's all you're going to be able to take. Because if you saw my face, you can't see my face and live.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: So I'm going to save you from that. And and we're going to do this. And he still comes down from the mountain, literally glowing, had to wear a veil.
Joe Dorhauer: Yep.
Tyler Lawhon: you know So.
Joe Dorhauer: And had to wear a veil.
Tyler Lawhon: and And it's funny, you know, I've...
Joe Dorhauer: I mean, that symbolizes something else.
Tyler Lawhon: i've ah
Joe Dorhauer: but Anyway.
Tyler Lawhon: Well, yeah, you know. But there is ah you know I think about countless stories where... Um, And I've heard of people that are, you know, especially like younger as children and they hear about God growing up and they're like, God, I just want to see you, you know.
Joe Dorhauer: Hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: And one stuck out to me and that was like this. Um, Kitty, like... entered his leg and it was like a really bad injury so he was sleeping out on the couch in his living room And he was having.
Tyler Lawhon: having that sort of thought, that kind of prayer. And every once in a while. There were like cars that would drive by. And the headlights would kind of shine in the window as they pass and and all this kind of stuff.
Tyler Lawhon: And suddenly he like. in that light He catches the glimpse of a man. But it was like. Um.
Tyler Lawhon: There was something extra bright about the light and the the shape of this man and it just brought them to sudden terror like oh my gosh i've been Asking to see God and now.
Joe Dorhauer: o
Tyler Lawhon: but what do i do you know i take it back i take it back that's just generally the the idea it's like There is something so... you know we The word awesome.
Tyler Lawhon: of course is is very appropriate, but.
Tyler Lawhon: People don't know what they're asking for.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: And I think, you know. We've. We don't know what we're asking for when we. Um, you know Gather together on a Sunday morning.
Tyler Lawhon: And say, you know. Like, Lord, we're we're welcoming you here. we you know Please join us by your spirit or or something like that. because like god is great and awesome and powerful and Fearful.
Tyler Lawhon: You know. like we The word fear is is appropriate. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. or or
Joe Dorhauer: Wisdom.
Tyler Lawhon: Wisdom. Thank you. Um, But yeah, just that idea of like. Yes, there is a fear because when you encounter something so perfect.
Tyler Lawhon: and grand. and and majestic. What else do you do? you know It's going to strike fear.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Because there's no other way around it.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Yeah. and you know, you talk about How we... we kind of just get a glimpse and... You know, whether it's in your.
Joe Dorhauer: daily life. I think we all get those glimpses. we We recognize God's grace, God's favor in our life, but also just. Like. who God is and who we are.
Joe Dorhauer: in relation to that. what we've done. How gracious he's been towards us. And you get that little taste. And. um That's...
Joe Dorhauer: The thing. that I constantly... Try to remember. When life gets tough. when temptation or you know,
Joe Dorhauer: God forbid, even sin. enters into your life, whatever it may be. Um, The thing to use to drive yourself to flee from that sin.
Joe Dorhauer: to flee from Depression. whatever it is. is that little taste. Because... That little taste, I promise you.
Joe Dorhauer: in heaven isn't going to just be a taste. You're going to get the whole meal. And it's going to be worth it.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah. Well, in... in ah I think another great example of of glimpses. of just the way god operates are Children.
Tyler Lawhon: Um. First of all. one of the one of the best examples of what we put God through on a regular basis.
Joe Dorhauer: Yep.
Tyler Lawhon: Uh, You know, it's like, I love him to death.
Joe Dorhauer: That'll remind you.
Tyler Lawhon: but But wow. Wow. They don't want to listen.
Joe Dorhauer: Nope.
Tyler Lawhon: And then I then I take that step back and go. Neither do I.
Joe Dorhauer: Yep.
Tyler Lawhon: Um,
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, but then but then what do you do when they don't listen?
Tyler Lawhon: But.
Joe Dorhauer: Do you just...
Tyler Lawhon: You love him anyway.
Joe Dorhauer: Do you just beat them down and scream at them and verbally abuse them? and accuse them constantly. I mean, sure you could. But...
Joe Dorhauer: That's your kid.
Tyler Lawhon: yeah
Joe Dorhauer: That's your kid you want to just go over there and beat them over the head sometimes and get them to do the right thing, but you know you can't. So.
Tyler Lawhon: Right.
Joe Dorhauer: You just tell them, hey. I love you. Give him a big hug. And. yeah those those moments for sure like those moments where I don't know. it's not Obviously, it's not a one -to -one.
Joe Dorhauer: But. You know those times where I feel compelled to be More grace heavy than law heavy on my kids. I'm like, yeah, God's still got my back because I'm his kid.
Tyler Lawhon: Amen.
Joe Dorhauer: I don't know how else we can Keep going, man. this that That was like... That was good stuff.
Tyler Lawhon: I think that's...
Joe Dorhauer: I like that.
Tyler Lawhon: Ahem. That's probably a good place to end it.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Instead of finding something else to... ramble about for another hour.
Joe Dorhauer: We killed it, I mean.
Tyler Lawhon: We totally could.
Joe Dorhauer: yeah like this this is just how we talk guys like all the time this is the This is the combo going on. And we're just crazy enough to record it.
Tyler Lawhon: It's true.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: It's true. and And I know we've said it so many times, but... Really, this podcast is just...
Tyler Lawhon: our chats that we normally have and include. You, the audience.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: So. Welcome into the scrambled mess that is our minds.
Joe Dorhauer: Chili dogs. And... and technology and aliens and whatever.
Tyler Lawhon: That's right.
Tyler Lawhon: And P90X.
Joe Dorhauer: P90X.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Well, earlier, you know you said something about, what was it, hypostatic onions or something? you know So.
Joe Dorhauer: Oh, yeah, something like that Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: Caramelized onions?
Tyler Lawhon: It's actually...
Joe Dorhauer: is that it
Tyler Lawhon: for For anyone that doesn't know... that uh that That became my my screen name in a lot of places was Hypostatic Onion.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. And it's wonderful.
Tyler Lawhon: um Because... and And when I got a compliment from Tony. about how good that username was. I was like... through the roof i was like yeah Yes.
Joe Dorhauer: Yep. SCORE!
Tyler Lawhon: Vindication.
Joe Dorhauer: Are you proud of me, Dad?
Tyler Lawhon: Exactly, exactly. So.
Joe Dorhauer: But yeah, like, ah we... we you know we always talk about how this is like just how we talk well You know, we aren't the first ones to do it Form brotherhood. You know?
Tyler Lawhon: They did it first.
Joe Dorhauer: spawned out of them just talking.
Tyler Lawhon: And... Arguably better.
Joe Dorhauer: And there are... spiritual podcast. Parents. which Don't think too much about that. But.
Tyler Lawhon: You know, when we have church fathers and we have podcast fathers.
Joe Dorhauer: It's true.
Tyler Lawhon: And so there you go.
Joe Dorhauer: Who better than Tony and Jesse? Honestly.
Tyler Lawhon: Tony, Jesse, if you're if you're listening. We love you brothers.
Joe Dorhauer: We love you guys. You guys are the best. You know who else is the best, Tyler?
Tyler Lawhon: Oh man. OOJOE
Joe Dorhauer: Westhoff. Guys, tag Westhoff.
Joe Dorhauer: Tag was off. Tell them about your favorite new podcast that's not new anymore. We're a quarter of the way. Tyler, we're... We're almost a quarter of the way to triple digits.
Joe Dorhauer: Isn't that crazy?
Tyler Lawhon: That's insane.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. it's wild
Tyler Lawhon: It's crazy that we've made it this far and that people have willingly chosen to listen to us.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, we appreciate you guys. uh also In two episodes, it'll you know, we we release. biweekly. So in two episodes, it'll officially be a year.
Joe Dorhauer: That is wild.
Tyler Lawhon: Wow.
Joe Dorhauer: Like when we started this podcast, my wife was not yet pregnant.
Tyler Lawhon: That is crazy to think about
Joe Dorhauer: With our fourth, I should say we have. We have several of those.
Tyler Lawhon: Right.
Joe Dorhauer: I'm working on that full quiver, but you know.
Tyler Lawhon: He was just trying to get like me.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, you know.
Tyler Lawhon: ah
Joe Dorhauer: I imitate you as you imitate Paul, as Paul imitates Christ. So there you go.
Tyler Lawhon: You should just jump straight to imitating Paul. Trust me. Trust me. ah
Joe Dorhauer: Well, if they wanted to imitate. peep How do you think they would rate this podcast?
Tyler Lawhon: Oh, well, see there's this crazy feature. Where you gotta to hit... So you can highlight all five stars if you want to do five stars.
Joe Dorhauer: Mm -hmm.
Tyler Lawhon: but if you it' The one -star ratings are the tricky ones because you've got to hit that one.
Joe Dorhauer: I want to do that. yeah Tell me how to do that.
Tyler Lawhon: all the way over on the right
Joe Dorhauer: on the I write with my right hand.
Tyler Lawhon: on the right
Joe Dorhauer: Okay. Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: With your right hand. Yeah, there you go.
Joe Dorhauer: Yep. On the right. Yep.
Tyler Lawhon: It's got to be your right hand, yes.
Joe Dorhauer: I got it.
Tyler Lawhon: ah
Joe Dorhauer: Okay. So yeah. So click the star all the way on the right, no matter what. Right. So like five stars or one star.
Tyler Lawhon: Exactly. Exactly.
Joe Dorhauer: No.
Tyler Lawhon: See, now you're picking it up.
Joe Dorhauer: Gotcha.
Tyler Lawhon: now yeah It'll know.
Joe Dorhauer: um Yep.
Tyler Lawhon: It'll know.
Joe Dorhauer: I don't know.
Tyler Lawhon: Computers are smart. AI is crazy.
Joe Dorhauer: AI, yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: Um, Well, Joe, my question is if If people want to reach out to us. how How should they do that?
Joe Dorhauer: You know, I've been waiting on pins and needles for about an hour. Two minutes and 28 seconds for you to ask that question. And I'm so glad you did. If anybody...
Joe Dorhauer: on the planet. wants to reach out, maybe not in North Korea. If anybody not in North Korea wants to reach out to us, you guys can if you have.
Tyler Lawhon: Hey, we're not we're not saying you can't.
Joe Dorhauer: Somehow. Yeah, no it's not yeah we're not we're not saying you can't. It's some other people.
Tyler Lawhon: as Matter of fact. I'd love to hear from you.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Do it. If you can. Uh... Find a way. ah But anyway, yeah, if you want to reach out to us. It is. Overtheologizing at gmail .com. You can get a hold of us there. A few people have, a few maybe potential future guests. Some interesting stuff we've gotten in there.
Joe Dorhauer: Love to hear some more from you guys. Um, And also... x slash twitter at OverTheologizer. And...
Joe Dorhauer: Also. You can hit up our YouTube at Over Theologizing. We have a community in there. You can post in there. We'll see it. We don't. We're bad at the whole social media thing right now, but you know If you do contact us.
Joe Dorhauer: on any social media, we will see it. Like we have.
Tyler Lawhon: It's true. Both of us.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, we have notifications on. It's just that we're really bad at posting stuff. But also... As of very recently You can also look us up on Instagram.
Joe Dorhauer: And that is. over -theologizing. It's just over -theologizing.
Tyler Lawhon: Yep.
Joe Dorhauer: yeah Is that an at? is instagram I've never even...
Tyler Lawhon: Um,
Joe Dorhauer: looked at Instagram other than for this.
Tyler Lawhon: And... Yes. it it It depends on the situation.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, they know
Tyler Lawhon: If you go to Instagram .com slash over theologizing, you'll find us.
Joe Dorhauer: You'll find us.
Tyler Lawhon: um or you can just search us, all one word, over theologizing.
Joe Dorhauer: Yep.
Tyler Lawhon: In the little search box.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. So any, ah I mean, we're. We're just adding them on one by one. That's a 33 .3 repeating percent increase in social media. presence, Tyler.
Tyler Lawhon: It's true. It's true. and um
Tyler Lawhon: If you notice anything weird on the YouTube ah page, I'm sorry.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. Sorry guys.
Tyler Lawhon: we're still we just We just switched our distributor. Um,
Tyler Lawhon: And it's it's a whole thing. So.
Joe Dorhauer: It is. It is a thing. But. I think. Everything should be, by the time this comes out, everything should be squared away. You shouldn't get all those repeat posts anymore.
Joe Dorhauer: Should be good.
Tyler Lawhon: ah Unless...
Joe Dorhauer: Posting some shorts on YouTube.
Tyler Lawhon: unless posting this triggers a whole new
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: The thing.
Joe Dorhauer: Yep.
Tyler Lawhon: so
Joe Dorhauer: We'll see.
Tyler Lawhon: We'll see.
Joe Dorhauer: We'll see.
Tyler Lawhon: We'll see.
Joe Dorhauer: We're trying, guys. But you can also check out our shorts on YouTube as well. It's not just Instagram. it's It's going to be the same thing as Instagram. So whatever you guys prefer. You know? Subscribe on YouTube. We'd appreciate it. Um,
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah, that's pretty much all.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah, don't I don't think we could put full episodes on Instagram, but.
Joe Dorhauer: No.
Tyler Lawhon: um Instagram will have links to everything else.
Joe Dorhauer: Yep.
Joe Dorhauer: But yeah, that's pretty much it, guys.
Tyler Lawhon: So.
Joe Dorhauer: that's ah That's all the socials that we have right now. Maybe in the future we'll... We'll resurrect MySpace and get on there. or
Tyler Lawhon: There you go
Joe Dorhauer: Is it gone?
Tyler Lawhon: Um... I... I actually, I don't know.
Joe Dorhauer: I'm gonna find out right now hold on hold the podcast
Tyler Lawhon: You gotta to have just... Just remember, you got to have Tom in your... What is it, top five?
Joe Dorhauer: MySpace is a thing still.
Tyler Lawhon: Oh my goodness.
Joe Dorhauer: Are we going to get on MySpace?
Tyler Lawhon: single -handedly taught people how to code in HTML.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. That's true. Not me. I did. I had someone do it for me, but. Yeah. I don't know. It looks like it's just a Bunch of music? Oh, no, it's not just music. Okay, yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: and they They tried to turn it into a music platform and I don't think it.
Joe Dorhauer: My space is a thing.
Tyler Lawhon: Made it very far.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah. I don't know Anyway, we're not we're not going to get on there. I was lying. but
Tyler Lawhon: Right.
Joe Dorhauer: yeah But yeah, we'll see. Maybe there will be more. I doubt it. But I think we got the main ones covered. I refuse TikTok.
Tyler Lawhon: I think so.
Joe Dorhauer: I don't know about you Tyler. I don't want to. I refuse to go on TikTok. If you want to do it.
Tyler Lawhon: Yeah.
Joe Dorhauer: I'll i'll let.
Tyler Lawhon: i i I thought about setting that up and then I was like. I don't know that it's worth it.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: I don't know if it's worth it.
Joe Dorhauer: ahll I'll let you...
Tyler Lawhon: I was on it for a very short amount of time, and I was just like, this is... All trash.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: So.
Joe Dorhauer: I'll let you ah allow the CCP to spy on your private data. I'm not gonna do it.
Tyler Lawhon: Hey.
Tyler Lawhon: In that same vein, though, if they're listening to the show.
Tyler Lawhon: Just saying. Just saying.
Joe Dorhauer: Also, A little teaser. I haven't even told Tyler about this. I know of a guy. Good. I don't know if I should say this on the internet.
Joe Dorhauer: I'll tell you about it Tyler. I'm just going to leave it at that.
Tyler Lawhon: Tell me.
Joe Dorhauer: I'm going to leave him hanging. That's the cliffhanger of this episode. Maybe something interesting coming now. We'll see.
Tyler Lawhon: Okay.
Joe Dorhauer: We were just talking about China.
Tyler Lawhon: Well, now... no
Joe Dorhauer: That's all I'm going to say.
Tyler Lawhon: now Now I'm really excited to wrap the episode up.
Joe Dorhauer: Yeah.
Tyler Lawhon: so ah
Joe Dorhauer: Peace.
Tyler Lawhon: I think that'll... That'll about do it for us today. Um, Joe. Love you, brother.
Joe Dorhauer: Love you brother.
Tyler Lawhon: See you guys.
Joe Dorhauer: Bye, guys.
