Transcript
Speaker: Welcome. to... Episode number 23 of Overtheologizing. I'm Tyler. And I'm Joe. And today, we have video! Hey! Oh yeah.
Speaker: Also, Atheist bad.
Speaker: What's going on, Josh? Tyler. It's been a process, man. this whole podcasting thing is a process Well, and...
Speaker: Obviously we are trying something new. We are trying to. Say hello to the world. uh, See how this video. part works. I yeah guess we'll see. I don't know. The mugs we got, we might ah get less viewers, Tyler.
Speaker: ah You know... one One can hope they'll forgive us, you know. ah indeed indeed uh So, ah well, I'd ask you how life's been, but obviously we were talking on the phone earlier today.
Speaker: Um, You had an issue with your your delivery truck. Yeah. What what has happened with that? This week I have... sat broken down in one way or another for at least seven hours.
Speaker: So it's been fun. uh yeah i had a blowout one of my tires blew out the other day and then Today... uh my lift gate on my truck got Stuck.
Speaker: in the down position. all the way on the ground And. ah Yep. Just sat there. Just waiting. It ended up being... I never told you, Tyler, actually.
Speaker: So you're going to learn at the same time as. as the... Viewers do that it ended up being fuses It's just a couple blown fuses So.
Speaker: Yeah, that was fun. that' that'll That'll do it every time. yeah every time supposed to You're supposed to keep fuses in a commercial vehicle for that reason. And I had a bag of fuses.
Speaker: But. Uh... Someone took him out. oh party if we are yeah we are well What about you, Tyler? How's your life been? Oh dude, it's been warm.
Speaker: Um, It's been warm. ah It's been very warm here. for For those that that don't know. um It's... ah ah really get the impression that joe and i are having very similar weather despite being many states away from each other.
Speaker: um But we have had a extreme. Heat. Advisory. Um, in effect for like the past week yep um Yesterday... the notification said that our heat index uh was likely to be up up around 114 and that's that's hot even for florida Yeah. It's not fun. And it's been the same, like, ah you know, it's kind of weird. you know me being in st louis you being
Speaker: like a 20 hour drive away. Or whatever. Like the same weather, man. It's been. Yeah, like... one teens heat index and uh Apparently they...
Speaker: They just keep extending it. Just keeps going. And it's just it's the humidity aspect of it, too. You know, like it's been shockingly still as well. So like there's not really been much breeze. So it's just been hot.
Speaker: And it's the kind of heat that'll stick to you. Like you feel like you're waiting through the parking lot, go into your car. you know, god forbid you have your your car sitting in a parking spot for a long time you get in and It's like an oven Yeah, that that actually kind of leads into something I wanted to talk about.
Speaker: So weather. You would. You would consider meteorology a science, right? Sure. And ah all we can do with weather is observe. And.
Speaker: you know There's some prediction involved there. And. Use reason in order to try to make those predictions. Well. I am. i'm I'm somewhat of a... debate nerd. I listen to, you know. debates uh, like all the way from pretty much layman debating the existence of god to like highfalutin scholars debating Like.
Speaker: Crazy deep. philosophical problems. And. um I've been listening, like i've I've listened in the past week to, I don't know. Too many. Too many. hours of debate. and you know in my life thousands and thousands of hours of debate And it's just. I constantly think about when I listen to these skeptics and atheists debating. um You know, yeah there's Romans 1. creation.
Speaker: Suggests Creation demands the existence. of god i would say um But. That only gets you so far. You can only get so far with pure mechanical empirical evidence and reason.
Speaker: um You can get to theism. And I would argue, honestly, if you include history in that, you can get to Jesus himself. But you can only learn so much about God through strict, just... completely ignoring Revelation.
Speaker: Like. Special revelation. You can only get so far through strict. mechanical, um empirical reason. And, you know, that that doesn't get you salvation. It really doesn't. and I just I hear all these. debates and the christians seem to always kind of stoop down to the level of the empiricist and try to make it an empirical fact.
Speaker: but i just you know it it it might sound sort of anti -Christian. i guess but you can't get to the Trinity, for example, from Strict empiricism.
Speaker: and mechanical reason. You can say... Well, there is love, so therefore... God must. exist. in some sort of relation to himself. And you can get to the Trinity from there, but that even then you're kind of doing some...
Speaker: philosophy on top of that empiricism. So, I don't know. I've just been... That's a lot. i maybe should have Maybe I should have ah let you talk a little bit more in there. But... You're just kind of like...
Speaker: dumping a bunch of stuff. No, it's good. that's I mean... For anyone who's listened for any length of time, they know that the unplanned, just kind of random...
Speaker: is Is what the show is about. ah So. Yeah, no, I'm i'm i'm with you. I'm with you. Yeah. it's I don't know. I get frustrated.
Speaker: A lot of times, you know, they're... They're really good. Like. Solid Christian debaters. that debate these high scholarly atheists.
Speaker: And. you know i i don't particularly i don't I don't really know what to think of a person like N .T. Wright. You know for example because there's some things that he says that are Very not orthodox. um But.
Speaker: you know, on certain aspects, you know, we we talk about. All the time. ah you know, chewing up the meat and spitting out the bones. um there's a lot of stuff that N .T. Wright's really good at. Like, for example, the evidence of the resurrection. Like, he's really good on that kind of thing.
Speaker: um But I just get frustrated a lot of times with how... You know, I love debate and everything. i just Told you i listened I've listened to thousands of hours of this stuff. but I get kind of frustrated with how... I'm not going to say that...
Speaker: A lot of the Christians aren't bold. in the way that they debate these scholars, but it seems like they kind of abandon faith. in favor of empiricism. Just like I said, it's almost like they just stoop down to the level of the atheist and try to Prove.
Speaker: everything about the Christian faith through the atheist perspective and that just doesn't work yeah well and and you know I think we've kind of touched on it before, but there's... There's something about it requiring a specific bent on like a materialist have to observe it. Otherwise, it's not real. Mm hmm. Meanwhile, like there's still so many categories that you kind of have to accept. that you can't.
Speaker: observe In the way that it's kind of. Put out. If that makes sense. And so it's like you have to. accept things that you can't. see or observe you know like we haven't observed evolution but we just know for sure. Yeah. that you know they would say that the darwinistic evolution is is the way things are yeah Well, and that's the thing. like the you know the The atheist will always charge the Christian with...
Speaker: um inserting their presuppositions into the data. But... the atheists will never recognize that they themselves insert their presuppositions and they're doing it too yeah yeah they just act like they're this neutral party that you know they have no presuppositions at all on any subject and they just strictly empirically look at all and it nobody To be clear.
Speaker: Nobody is that way. If you think that you can... strictly empirically look at any sort of data without any biases or anything like that then you're lying to yourself, to be to be honest. it's And that's not necessarily a bad thing. you know, biases don't necessarily proven argument wrong.
Speaker: Um... They just prove you're bent towards. Maybe one side or the other. Bye. And I also should say. Like. talking about these high scholarly debates.
Speaker: ah If you're going to listen to them. That's totally fine. i mean You know. there's there's definitely some that are worth listening to but you have to be really careful because they throw around all these terms and words and you know They'll name off some random guy.
Speaker: that has some... thing named after him. And. um There's just a lot of stuff that can fly over your head. And honestly, at the end of the day, you don't even know if you're... listening to a person debating an atheist. from the Christian perspective that even qualifies as a Christian. um Too many times. Yeah. Yeah, I'll be like an hour and a half deep into it. debate and then then you know the christian will say
Speaker: Well, yeah, you know, Jesus never really claimed to be God. And the synoptic gospels are the real gospels. And when the gospel of John was written, you know, decades after, that doesn't matter. Yeah. I'll give you all the points. It's okay. Yeah. yeah but Honestly, the same exists on the other side too. like i So often, it's such a strange thing. Atheists will... appeal.
Speaker: Especially... when debating morality. Because. There's no grounding for morality in a Darwinian. Or a neo -Darwinian.
Speaker: evolutionary perspective which almost all of them if not all of them hold. Um. Ethics are not. a thing that matters. There's no grounding for any of them outside of ourselves. So it's purely.
Speaker: Subjective. And there's you know there's other views. where you know you have You do have atheists. I'm rambling, Tyler. Tell me to shut up if you want me to. You're good. You're good. You do have atheists that...
Speaker: believe in objective morality and they believe that you can arrive at morality from reason, but that still is not. A sufficient. Um... Proof. for objective morality, in my opinion, because whose reason are we talking about? you know A good example.
Speaker: Um, i was listening i can't remember her name there was a woman that was debating an atheist It was on a completely different subject, but the the problem of evil almost always comes up in these debates because atheists. Yeah.
Speaker: Love to throw how can a good God allow XYZ and they'll bring up the worst. possible thing, of course. but she She brought up a really good... Example. And that was, well, what if a Uh,
Speaker: It's revolution. society decided that abusing women. Sexually. you know, the R word. I didn't. Didn't really want to throw the word out there.
Speaker: youtube algorithm exactly exactly But what if... That was seen as okay. And through reason, you would say, well, that would forward the species And even arguably, um I'll throw on top of her point.
Speaker: Even arguably, it would benefit. the species evolutionarily because the top dogs, so to speak. As far as the males go.
Speaker: would be the one ensuring. Yeah, ensuring reproduction and all that, yeah. Yeah. And. Really, there's no... there's no good answer for that Like there's no...
Speaker: I... I hate to make it so simplistic because it is such a complicated topic. But... At the end of the day, there is absolutely zero grounding for morality apart from.
Speaker: something outside of ourselves. and Well, and and the whole thing is like... You know, the the the Christian will point. or should at least should point. Yeah. um to even as early as Old Testament law. As far as like why.
Speaker: Murder is wrong or or or or really any sort of violation of of another person. um And that's because. we're created in the image of god like there there's even these things um and And excuse me for. like not having exact references.
Speaker: But like there's there's talks about like, you know, if an ox. gores your neighbor. that ox is to be put to death because it has destroyed something that was made in the image of god Right. And therefore it has to be put to death. And so like the whole.
Speaker: Debate about like the death penalty is centered around that. scripturally. that men are created in the image of God. And therefore, if a man takes the life of another man,
Speaker: that man's life is to be taken. by the government. As the. um magistrate appointed by God. to to uphold his holiness and his order. yeah So like there's there's just this, like the Christian has the answer to this, that the the atheist that tries to do away with God simply can't hold to. and that is like so many times god in his law as he's telling ah what the law is to be.
Speaker: It's... I am the Lord your God. That's the answer. i am the lord you know do not do this i am the lord Yeah. Um, and And so, there's but there's... there's Basically, like.
Speaker: to sum it up. that There is something that we can point to as Christians that that the unbeliever can't point to. Because they have to remove God from the equation. Whereas we have something that we can say, like, we have a...
Speaker: a source of our objective morality, not just This sense of objective morality. Yeah, like we we can point to. Who says it's wrong? and And even in a lot of cases. why he says it's wrong. Mm hmm.
Speaker: Instead of just saying, well, it's it's wrong because I just know it, you know. Yeah. and Also being made in the image of God. Morality itself flows from the character of God. It flows from who God is.
Speaker: And. That itself, the fact that... the consensus is Murder is Wrong. speaks to the fact that we're...
Speaker: created in the image of God. Um, The Imago Dei. That's what I was looking for. That's why I paused there. I almost said X in the helo. That's the other one. that's Yeah, that's the other one. yeah um we're created in the the imago dei we're created in the image of god it's ingrained in us and yet you know, the atheist will say, oh, well, what about you know, and they'll They'll say specifically Christians. Christians who have...
Speaker: Uh, use the Bible to justify slavery or, you know, use the Bible to justify XYZ. And. That's just... Not a... Good argument.
Speaker: you know people have abused the bible is not an argument for the bible is wrong um But yeah, I don't know. It's just it's. I end up sitting there. In my work truck.
Speaker: broke down, screaming at my phone. Like... You're too smart. Like you're too smart not to see this. um and it is more complicated and fleshed out than we have said but at the end of the day like you know you'll hear people at church or people, your friends talking all the time say like, what's the difference between me and A.
Speaker: Piece of broccoli. in the evolutionary perspective and at the end of the day they have to they it's it's Honestly, truly. Terrible. what the excuse they have to use is.
Speaker: And the excuse they have to use is because we reason. And the reason that is terrible. is because, for example, I have a little sister who has Down syndrome. and her faculties for reasoning are hampered. Well, in the Christian Worldview.
Speaker: No matter if you're born in a third world country and you're not very educated. No matter if you went to a Yale. and got a master's degree.
Speaker: No matter if you were born with Down syndrome, no matter if you're black, white, male, female. Doesn't matter. you're made in the image of god as a human being and you have inherent value um And that's just something that I wish.
Speaker: I would hear... The Christian side press more. is, okay, hold on. You're saying... Broccoli can't reason we can, so we're better. So therefore, well, I mean, that raises all kinds of questions, but the The moral question of that is, what about those people? that have less faculties for reasoning? Are they less? human Um,
Speaker: you know I did hear one person. Again, I don't, I listened to so many, I don't even remember the names. um But one person brought up... um there's a few things here as far as reason goes with morality, but one person brought up.
Speaker: ah What about someone that's in a vegetative state? and As Christians. Admittedly. It is somewhat of a gray area because we wouldn't look down on someone that has had.
Speaker: traumatic events. happen in their life ah happen to them And they are on life support. We wouldn't look down on a person who decided beforehand that they want their family member to pull the plug. But at the same time.
Speaker: God requires that we preserve life. So that person is still alive. They're still made in the image of God. They still have inherent value. But from the atheist perspective, there's no reason to waste resources on something like that, even if there's a chance that they might come back. that's that's That's a waste of resources that could go to someone that's not in a vegetative state.
Speaker: um The other example was... Like... A guy brought up. Okay, let's say... There's a man who's been married for 40 years and his wife is terminally ill. Well, reason...
Speaker: would state that it would be more financially more emotionally uh gratifying for him, which it wouldn't. because Again, we're we're made in the image of God. um for him to just go ahead and leave her.
Speaker: It would make his life a whole lot easier if he would just go ahead and leave her. And go. Maybe start something new. Maybe just... you know go on with his life alone. And.
Speaker: Do whatever. But we all recognize that that is absolutely horrendous. um Yeah, you just you can't get. to uh a basis for morality strictly from reason you can get the morality from reason you just don't have a basis for it yeah well and like i said you know for us you know they we can point to Who has given us...
Speaker: A sense of morality and and and even why. Versus just like this kind of. because Because here's the thing, like if if if Romans, the if the book of Romans is to be believed. um God's law is written on our heart.
Speaker: So, like yes, there is an intrinsic sense of morality. Baked into... Every single one of us. Like from. an early age. you would understand pretty quickly and easily that.
Speaker: Murder is wrong. Mm hmm. and And that's why we feel so strongly when stuff is taken from us and and people are taken from us. You know, your grandmother dies or you know your dog gets run over or or anything like that. like There's a reason why that's so baked into it. like we We don't know how to deal with extremes like death.
Speaker: Yeah. and for the people that have like gone off to war and have unfortunately become highly Equated. with death They end up having so many other like mental things going on later because they've had to essentially.
Speaker: trade this morality that's baked into them. to suppress it to a point to where like now they they can't deal with it. They see the faces of their victims and all this. So but like if you remove God from the equation.
Speaker: Because your... you know. sense of of right and wrong. dictates that God is not real, you still have to grapple with the fact that we have at least a basic level of morality baked into us.
Speaker: Hmm. And we have to fight against that in order to come to. a lot of the conclusions that we do. Yeah, yeah ah it's Yeah, always an interesting conversation.
Speaker: to to hear. Mm hmm. Obviously frustrating as well, yeah but you know it's it's always so interesting to hear like how people try to... Skirt around.
Speaker: Yeah. you know God. but yeah Yeah, and... and I just. Like. I don't know if it's because I've been a Christian for...
Speaker: Uh... I guess 11 years now Or what? But like, I... That, and again, this is an emotional. This isn't even an argument. But... If it were, it would be in an emotional argument. i'm not I'm not trying to make an argument with this, but...
Speaker: That. worldview is so vapid and Just. empty. If you believe that the universe is blind and pitiless indifference like how are you not. depressed all the time.
Speaker: ah You know, like. Literally nothing matters other than the forwarding of the species. Well, why does the forwarding of the species even matter if nothing else else matters? if my own what What is your motivation to continue forward then? Yeah.
Speaker: And honestly. I would argue if that's the only purpose in life. which again, isn't even a purpose really. It would probably be better to end the species in their viewpoint because there's, a there's a lot of suffering. So, yeah. And that's another, oh man.
Speaker: I'm getting myself onto it. Like nine different trains of thought here, but that's another. like they're Their core. most important value. is pleasure yeah and they'll admit that out loud and the christian i'm I'm assuming.
Speaker: There's not very many atheists listening to a show called Over Theologizing. The Christian hears that and is just like. That's... Exactly what God says not to do is to live for pleasure, not not to... eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die that's right that's what fools do but it's It's such a horrible thing.
Speaker: Because again, if I'm... if My whole goal in life is A, forward the species and very closely next to it. Live. the most pleasurable life possible. Morality is out the window. i mean you know we can gratify our flesh In.
Speaker: Many many many different ways um That. Wood. do both of those things that are completely awful and wicked and everybody would recognize they are. Right. But yeah. And and it's a...
Speaker: realistically it's it's necessary consequences on on both sides like if we If we say we... we Believe in God. who has created everything and therefore morality comes from him.
Speaker: Like, we have to appeal to that. Hmm. Um, Just like on the flip side, like... atheists you know tend to be of very depressed people.
Speaker: um Usually to to be very... ah Aggressive. Yeah. Um, And therefore, like. it's that good and necessary consequence of like there there's not gonna be a ton of consistency because i always find it funny you know it's like you'll have somebody that says like you know there is no objective morality And.
Speaker: All this kind of stuff but like murder is is wrong But at the same time. you know because of natural selection and everything you know if if someone's vegetative to unplug them it's not really a problem but also i'm not pro death penalty because you know and it's like you have you have to do this dance yeah yeah But it's it's a necessary consequence of being at war with oneself.
Speaker: Mm hmm. Yeah, well, excuse me. Let's follow down the wrong pipe. Good. Something that I've noticed... is that... The more that...
Speaker: People learn about how God's world works. Often. They... tend to abandon philosophy in general. And I don't mean vain philosophies.
Speaker: I mean just rational not rational, but critical thinking. I'll say. and They will go to strict empiricism. Because they recognize that... they have inconsistencies in their worldview.
Speaker: And they're content to just say, okay, well, I can measure it, so therefore... It is X. And like we said before. They don't even realize that they're bringing biases into that data. But, um...
Speaker: there tend to be a lot of scientist. high scholarly scientists that are atheists. And I think the reason is that they don't recognize that just because you can measure something and it's tangible, you can taste, touch, feel, um it's empirical. it doesn't mean that God didn't do it you know
Speaker: Just because you can come up with this equation of E equals MC c squared, which by the way, Einstein was a theist, doesn't mean that God didn't make it that way.
Speaker: And that's when they will bring in the argument of the God of the gaps. where you know It's kind of ironic when they bring that argument in because they're recognizing that there's a gap. and their worldview.
Speaker: And they're saying that theists or... specifically Christians, because they... pretty much just attack Christians. but um And again, I think I said it before, but it's kind of weird because...
Speaker: They often like fall back onto Buddhism. Mochi. It's like, okay, you're okay with that one, but... Um, Anyway, I think it's probably because they have a non -personal god. But anyway, it doesn't matter. um Where was I?
Speaker: I completely lost my train of thought Just because you can measure something doesn't mean that. God didn't make it that way um But they they see all these naturalistic.
Speaker: explanations for how things work. Whether it's... Um, molecular biology. And the Christian looks at molecular biology and sees how intricate.
Speaker: And designed it appears. And they say someone had to have done this. Some intelligent design had to go into this. yeah The empiricist. says...
Speaker: Well, it's this way because it's this way. Right. Yeah. It just is. It is what it is because it is. Yeah. Well, and, and, oh man. I found a while back.
Speaker: some videos by a guy named Dr. Jason Lyle. Hmm. I've got a couple of these books. Oh, okay. Yeah. ah From ah the Biblical Science Institute.
Speaker: um And first of all. his if you've not if you've not seen his video on fractals um his video on fractals is deeply fascinating as someone who is both fascinated and frustrated by mathematics. Um, It is it is really, really intriguing.
Speaker: But also like he has some talks about. like why he leans towards a young earth creation view as opposed to older. yeah um Why?
Speaker: you know how evolution works and actually he even made an argument that um The idea. but between ah natural selection and Darwinian evolution, like they're actually at odds with each other.
Speaker: Um, So go look him up. but He's one of those kind of people where. Because he is coming in with. this presupposition of God created all this. to then go and measure.
Speaker: and observe. and do all this he's able to say Wow, what an incredible God Yeah. that he has done this stuff and and we can even see like the blueprints in the measurements and the mathematics and the physics and all this kind of stuff we can see the evidence of a creator.
Speaker: yeah Because his fingerprint is all over it. And it goes beyond just like, well, we measured it. So therefore obviously it wasn't a God. Right. you know. But then, OK, so I wanted to bring this up simply because and I'm. I'm curious to see if you've ever heard. ah this kind of line of thinking. I know I have many times.
Speaker: But there is. There's this weird idea that. God. there There are certain things that God can't do simply because like it doesn't fit within how physics works or whatever.
Speaker: You know, how how how can a God be infinite? in And because we have this. you know god had to come from somewhere because this and and it's kind of like you know if if you if you simplify it down to the idea of like a painter and a painting or or an author and and their story that they're writing you know The author is not constrained.
Speaker: Right. by the the laws of His own story. yeah you know he's he's above that He's not, ah you know, I can't be contained by this story because my life is so much.
Speaker: larger than this yeah so um Yeah. and ah I'm sure you've heard at least. One or two people bring up an argument like that. And yeah you're just like, well how do you not wait? And even the author.
Speaker: Metaphor doesn't even... begin to describe The vast... ah chasm between the... ontological reality of who God is.
Speaker: and who we are as created beings. um We don't... Bye. And, you know, this is something where again, like. Christians can't really bring this up in a debate because...
Speaker: This is so far beyond you can't physically possibly measure. an uncreated being. That's not something you can measure. You can measure the fingerprints of the uncreated being on the creation.
Speaker: but you can't measure the uncreated being. by nature of being an uncreated being um so even even the author Metaphored. doesn't really begin to describe how far above us God is.
Speaker: um He's not. He's not. Only. not constrained by his story as the example says but he's completely unfathomable.
Speaker: like presumably Sherlock Holmes. could fathom. his author, presumably, right? Like. somewhat somewhat similar. Yeah.
Speaker: they're They're both constrained in certain ways. But. The author couldn't fathom an unconstrained... God. Follow me. Well, and it's crazy because like when we consider God being.
Speaker: So much higher and and farther above What we can imagine, like there is still this sense in which God is so. Just. Wild. to to even comprehend because he inserts himself into our reality in a way that where we can interact with him we can talk with him we can have communion with him and and and find commonality with others
Speaker: in a way that that, I mean, he put on flesh and and became a man and and came and died. Like, that's wild. That's crazy. So like not only is he the author, but he has a cameo.
Speaker: Constantly. All three. know he's He's like Stan Lee, but way cooler. Yeah. Way cooler. Yeah, and... And that's something I kind of wanted to bring up with the The problem of evil.
Speaker: is It is. Incredible. Complete. When... When Jesus Christ... incarnated and became a man he'd could have By all means been justified in. deciding to incarnate himself as a king. The king like the the most rich king in the biggest palace and that would not have
Speaker: There's no possible thing on this earth that wouldn't be a condescension still for him. And yet he decided. to be born in a manger.
Speaker: as Basically a peasant. To live a life. That was... Uh, We'll say rocky. That would put it lightly and to suffer and die Even setting aside the fact that he just died on our behalf, you know greater greater love has no one than this. that Someone would lay their life down for their friend.
Speaker: That's beautiful all on its own. But. The fact that he. decided to live the life he did and suffered alongside with us.
Speaker: Kind of spits in the face of the argument of the problem of evil. I bring up. Yeah. Hebrews 4 all the time, Hebrews 4, 15 and 16. And I'll say it again. Because I love it.
Speaker: and You can't do anything about it because this podcast loves the Bible. um We do not take that atheist. Yeah, exactly. Take it. Check me.
Speaker: We do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are and yet without sin. And I was actually challenge i was talking to one of my customers.
Speaker: And. um Her mom died when she was 10 years old. and some Facebook memories popped up and she was having a really hard time. and You know, I was talking to her. I brought up that verse.
Speaker: And she was like, well, what is. temptation to have to do with it. Well, it's like... the Christian will recognize that temptation is... difficult. It's... A suffering. Um,
Speaker: he's been tempted in all things and yet without sin means yeah he he lived a perfect life but also It's kind of a glimpse into the fact that he did condescend. And he did suffer.
Speaker: just like we do. And he suffered way more on the cross, obviously than most people. will ever Imagine.
Speaker: And... um you know, because of that fact. ah We draw near to the throne. You know, that's that verse 16. But... the The problem of evil kind of crumbles at the fact that Jesus Christ God himself decided, um rather than living this lavish life when I come down there.
Speaker: Uh, I'm going to suffer with you right alongside you. And that that gives us... Not. Not a um necessarily... an answer for why does God allow suffering, but it gives us brotherhood alongside of God himself in that he suffered with us.
Speaker: And it gives us comfort, obviously, as Christians that are suffering just like his. does have a purpose. um You know, there's that First Corinthians verse that I'm gonna butcher right now.
Speaker: Um, Suffering produces endurance. Endurance produces perseverance. perseverance produces hope, something like that. it's something like there you go that is close enough right yeah i think that's happened there And hope does not.
Speaker: does not. Let us down. So. And again, I butchered that last part too, but you get the gist of it. That's the JSV, the Joe Standard version. but Oh my gosh.
Speaker: Um... But yeah, I mean, we have... um We do have an answer for the problem of suffering. I don't know if you want to talk about that. But not only do we have an answer, but we have a God who suffers along with us. It's not as though he... um condemn the world.
Speaker: Rightfully so. to suffering. But also he suffered himself. yeah There's... There's some interesting like tidbits to to bring out from like the gospel accounts of...
Speaker: Jesus. specifically like you know first of all obviously the way he enters jerusalem the first time is is on a donkey He's not riding in on this like stately horse, yeah you know, displaying. his status.
Speaker: Um, That's the second time. Well, right. yeah No, when he comes back. Like, it hasn't happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know what you're talking about. yeah it's Sorry. um but so but even even down to like you know it's interesting if you look at his temptations when when the when satan tempts him in the wilderness At no point. is Is he lying to?
Speaker: Mm -hmm. well It's all true. But it it it was it was down to a a I mean, at it. a temptation. you know it was a a putting god to the test sort of situation yeah you know So like when he's like, yeah, throw yourself down from from the temple and... You know, he will command his angels charge over you and and you will not. you know dash your foot against the stone well like that's true like That's real. Jesus had the authority to call down legions. like
Speaker: If at any point on the cross, he decided that he wanted to. be done he could have brought home you know the the host of Heaven's armies and just. Wipe the place clean.
Speaker: um It would have looked like, you know. a something out of a sci -fi movie you know But everything, I mean, he didn't come in with the presence of a king.
Speaker: Instead, he became, you know, the the son of. a virgin who becomes pregnant out of wedlock. And is betrothed to.
Speaker: you know a blue collar worker. You know, somebody who has a very just hands on job, like it's not some sort of. Super impressive. position you know some translations will say he's a carpenter i've heard some debate whether it was a carpenter or uh a mason or something like that but whatever yeah it doesn't matter the the fact is like He being the king of the entire universe.
Speaker: comes down. as Servant. Mm hmm. he puts on this air of humility. and and serves everyone. There you go. ah so but it's so funny like Those are the the details that I find so intriguing. Like he has such.
Speaker: power the fact that like even even when he's confronted by the pharisees and he was like i have the authority to forgive sin you know like it's not it's not this big a deal guys And that's crazy. You know, he he's going up against the the powerful. And here he is.
Speaker: virtually a nobody. but yet the most important somebody all at the same time. you know and and obviously that's kind of the whole story of the gospels.
Speaker: is you know obviously there's the salvation story but it's the story of a people who are actively looking for their messiah their messiah shows up and they decide No, that's not him.
Speaker: Cause he doesn't fit what. I want him to be. You know? So the gospels are are truly intriguing in that regard. Yeah. and It's funny, you know, you talk about how he was...
Speaker: object I mean... objectively kind of a nobody. as far as the culture was concerned. um Wes Huff. Brings up a good point. Shout out Wes Huff. Tag Wes Huff. Get him on the podcast.
Speaker: um Please come see us. He brings up a great point. And that is that. Uh, Caesar Augustus. who was Caesar at the time of Christ was. The most. Like.
Speaker: powerful. most well -known man on earth. At the time. And he had four people that wrote about him. You know, who else had four people that wrote about him, wrote about his life?
Speaker: Wrote a biography of him. uh jesus And you have this nobody. who's four biographies have standed the test of time for 2 ,000 years.
Speaker: This is another thing. um I actually heard. Can't remember if it was a debate. like that I was listening to or that I was having. Um, But someone said.
Speaker: Well, yeah, you know, sometimes stuff sticks and that's how they explained how. Christianity has survived for 2000 years. um You know. Really more than that.
Speaker: because there's not a there's a continuation between the old and new covenant We're Baptists here, but... We still believe that. um But... It it has exists for existed for thousands of years and standed the test of time.
Speaker: And yet very few people have read the... biographic biographical accounts of Caesar Augustus in 2026. There's a reason why.
Speaker: I mean that. You know, at the very least, the atheist has to concede that That's a data point. a significant data point that needs to be examined. And yet.
Speaker: For some reason they will just, well, no, I don't. Not for some reason. I mean, we know why we say it's, we know why. they're suppressing Bring it back to Romans 1, they're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. That's right, that's right. is is uh There's a reason why.
Speaker: those accounts have standed the test of time and the others haven't. Well, and and even still, that's not even counting. the external from the Bible, secular accounts of of Christ.
Speaker: yeah one of them corroborating One of them was literally from one of the people that wrote a biography of Caesar Augustus. um yeah His name is escaping me. Was it? is is it josephus it's josephus yeah that's who i was gonna say but i didn't want to sound like an idiot Yeah. Yeah. so and And even still corroborating a lot of, you know.
Speaker: Like they they won't say like, ah, and he definitely like raised the dead or definitely healed people or whatever, but they're, they're definitely. Sing. These are the reports that I'm hearing.
Speaker: Like this guy sounds. Fantastic. For all intents and purposes like this is Really cool guy. Yeah, and you know, some of them weren't even flattering. Like some of them were.
Speaker: I think. Josephus was... I could be wrong, but I think he had like a negative view. I mean, he was Jewish, but... I think he had a negative view on. Christ generally.
Speaker: but then he also corroborated lots of um events recorded in scripture. yeah So even the people that didn't like him. corroborated What happened?
Speaker: When he, you know. when he was walking on the planet. Right. That's another funny how God works that way. Yeah. Even the rocks will cry out. yeah Yeah. I don't know. It's, um, It's an interesting thing to dive into debate, scholarly debate. but um As I said before, you you got to really be careful with it because. uh it really It really gets into...
Speaker: The Christian basically... Saying I want to abandon anything that has to do with faith. Faith is almost a cuss word in those debates. um and And I'll bring it back to what Jesse said when we had him on.
Speaker: Man I loved this little turn of phrase that he had. He said, Faith allows us to take the ramp of reason before we take a leap. And it faith is not this God of the gaps, unreasonable.
Speaker: um Superstitious. presuppositional that's That's a word I usually use for. a different theological topic, but...
Speaker: Um, presuppositional like assumption that I have it is I'm looking at everything around me. And I'm looking at what God has done into my life.
Speaker: And I'm seeing... Jesus Christ. is working the holy spirit the father son and holy spirit are working in and through creation they are personal beings actively participating in creation including myself and there's just no denying it.
Speaker: um I love the beach ball analogy. the Skeptic. Is is like. uh someone swimming in a pool with a beach ball and they're just trying to hold that beach ball under the water And it just keeps coming up.
Speaker: You know? yeah I like that. well And I've always found myself a little ah frustrated. at this perspective of like blind faith. yeah some people will just be like oh you know we just gotta have faith and it's like Right.
Speaker: But the problem is we don't have a blind faith. we We have a faith because promises were made and we know that. you know. per history God keeps his promises. And so it's not just like a... You know, we'll just hope and see it works out, you know. there is there is something genuine to to hope in, to place my hope in. beyond just, we'll see, you know.
Speaker: And, and. Like ah like Pascal's a wager. Right. yeah Now, that said, like yeah there's going to be plenty of times in your life that are, I really don't know how this is going to turn out. Right, but... ah And this is this might be where you're going. I hate to cut you off, but you you got me on.
Speaker: ah But that's not. Hmm. That faith is not... unreasonable. Right. Because if X, then Y. If God promised in the garden.
Speaker: to Adam and Eve that he would crush the head of the serpent. And then he did it. If God promised... ah You know. Like we could go on for hours. all the promises God made and then fulfilled, why would it be unreasonable to believe that God would fulfill his promise that he's working all things out for my good and for his glory. Well, and and you know, when Jesus says like,
Speaker: i go to prepare a place for you and and you can you can basically you can trust me because i've said it Mm hmm. You know, like I keep my word. Yeah. the You know, it's... it's there's There's an intensity, but especially in like the the old.
Speaker: ancient Hebrew and in Greek style of writings. You know, there's a lot of things that are just kind of like. we We read it in our modern American English. lens and go like, I i don't really.
Speaker: Get why you said it that way but whatever But we're going with it it would have had. tremendous impact. And so, you know like I mentioned earlier.
Speaker: how God in his law will say like, you know, you should not, you know. don't read You must wash your hands before you eat your food. I am the Lord, you know, or whatever. i'm I'm struggling to bring ah an exact example. um But like those are like for God to say that that's like. ah oh okay you know it has an intensity behind it that We just don't really get it in our American English. Yeah.
Speaker: i thought I thought you were going somewhere else with it. Oh, well, take us there. I had a very specific thing in mind. What you were talking about. um I don't know why I thought. ah My brain is just... Maybe random, but anyway.
Speaker: Um, You were talking about how um you know, maybe there's events in our lives and we're uncertain. And then. We go to scripture and we see that God promises that ah like Like I said, he's going to work all things out for our good and for his glory. And how can we know that? Well...
Speaker: If God says something... He's going to do it. I am. that i am god is not This. ah Not only is God not limited.
Speaker: but he's also completely and totally faithful. to all of his promises and this this is the exact point in the Problem of Evil. Word. the skeptic um The skeptic will argue, well, ah Basically. We have no reason to trust God's promises.
Speaker: But, and then, you know, they'll say, oh, well. you know you're gonna suffer here on earth and I think it's... Peter. I think it's Peter that says...
Speaker: you know Basically, if... If. ah Man, I'm blanking. I'm not doing good on my Bible references today. If these things aren't true, basically, we're we're like...
Speaker: to be mourned. like If what we're talking about isn't true, then we should have ate and drank and been merry. Because tomorrow we're going to die, and that's it. yeah yeah I can't remember the exact verse. You know what I'm talking about.
Speaker: It's definitely Peter that says it. but um Again I lost my train of thought. But. oh yeah yeah the skeptic will say oh well you're you're going through all this suffering And. It's all on this.
Speaker: um, suspicion that heaven might be real. And. you know they'll say oh well i am better because i want you to enjoy your life because heaven might be real and you know we brought up pascal's wager which i'm not even sure pascal meant what the colloquial ah of what pascal wage Pascal's wager is. I don't think he really meant that. If you actually read into...
Speaker: Pascal, I don't think you... meant that You should just, you know. Believe in God because the reward is great. You know that. We won't get into that, but um man.
Speaker: i'm I'm just losing my train of thought completely. I'm just rambling so much. this I apologize. um well i mean there there is certainly something to be said about you know it the atheist saying to the Christian, you know, You're you're you're suffering so much in life because of a suspicion of heaven.
Speaker: but But still the Christian can say, like, even... Even if that's so, when I come to the end of my life... I am still better for. having lived that way then self -seeking.
Speaker: yeah I mean, there's literally studies on this stuff where... You know, you you have people that. that do like selfless acts and all this kind of stuff instead of seeking their own personal pleasure and they find themselves so much happier. with life.
Speaker: Even... even God removed from the equation. So imagine how much more fulfilled... the christian is like I just got done listening to. My favorite.
Speaker: podcast um here lately aside from ours obviously okay okay aside from ours obviously um And it's it's called ninjas or butterflies. If anybody.
Speaker: Wants to check it out. they're They're good, goofy, fun. Love to talk about. Silly. Conspiracy theories and and stuff, but they had this guy on named ah Paul Bach and he was talking about ah all the hardships that he's been through ease Like.
Speaker: former special forces and got medically retired and turned out like part of his problem and some of the issues that he was having were actually basically because of so many TBIs, you know, traumatic. brain injuries. um Like he was epileptic.
Speaker: And so a lot of these times where he thought he was just like zoning out. No, it turns out he was actually having like a focal seizure. you know um And then it's like his wife had cancer and they weren't sure if they were to be able to have kids and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker: And then he's like, now that we're kind of on the other side of this, we are just so overwhelmed with joy for being able to suffer for the Lord. because this has brought about so much good.
Speaker: for us and the way we minister to people, you know, and and it the atheist cannot say that. Right. They cannot say that because they have no. Hope. Win.
Speaker: When you... close your eyes and breathe your final breath and you become nothingness, it was all for naught. Yeah. And so. And I mentioned natural consequences earlier. When that's what you believe.
Speaker: Yeah you might as well live life to the fullest. As far as. seeking pleasure. Because once it's done, it's done. Like if that's truly what you believe, it makes sense. But for the Christian to say,
Speaker: No, but there's so much. beyond and And. we We have Jesus saying, I would not tell you this if it weren't so. So we have hope. We have a reason, even for our suffering.
Speaker: Mm hmm. And arguably, like a lot of us here in in the US. Like we've had our own sufferings and they still pale in comparison to so many all over the world. And even still, like sometimes it's hard for us to get out of bed in the morning.
Speaker: you know, So. But when we can take that. Extra breath. and say, God, i'm I'm going to hold you to your promise. like that's That's the kind of putting God to the test.
Speaker: That you can do. God, you promised. And I'm trusting that. Yeah, so uh you know i don't i don't know where else to really go well i was just gonna say like suffering Um...
Speaker: You know, you can make the emotional argument of um people People who suffer that are Christians tend to be happier. And so therefore, and again, this is kind of like the colloquial Pascal's wager view.
Speaker: um People are happier, therefore you should just do it. but The Christians that I know that have suffered the most. are some of the most joyful people and it's um it's It's not just...
Speaker: What I mentioned before. this this Brotherhood with Christ. in suffering for the Lord. Um... But it's also... Like we're suffering on behalf of each other, kind of.
Speaker: Um, I have a good friend who has uh several kids with um um diabetes really difficult thing when your children have diabetes it's it's It's a big deal.
Speaker: And... There's another family in my church that... A lot of their kids have diabetes. And. they were able to help a lot and alleviate a lot. you know That's the...
Speaker: That's the... um uh bearing the weight of each other's suffering that it's an example of what christ did it's not equal to Um, But.
Speaker: these These are not. you you Again, you can make that argument. that okay well this is just yeah it helps people therefore good But it's not just that. It's...
Speaker: also the fact that we're we're suffering on behalf of the lord we are Sheep led to the slaughter. And we are. like christ was seen as this lowly people that Um,
Speaker: uh you know aren't flashy with our money, aren't out. I'm just warm. Shouldn't be out. clubbing and doing all these crazy excessive things.
Speaker: And people think we're missing out. But in reality, it's kind of like the ultimate. Twist. where They're the ones that are really missing out.
Speaker: And we should we should also recognize that. And. that That should be a drive for us to call them to repentance. And it can be really difficult.
Speaker: for people that live that way. i mean Myself included in the past. living excessive lives just constantly seeking pleasure. um Obviously. You know their hearts can't be changed without a work of God anyway.
Speaker: But that should be a drive for us to call these people to. repentance. in a loving way. And that's not often done in debate. Um,
Speaker: But. Using... uh the example of christ Loving them. And. ah showing them that there's something better. There is hope.
Speaker: We do have hope in our suffering. It's not just... blind and pitiless indifference yeah well um If you... Loved. this episode, Joe.
Speaker: how How can they let us know? Sorry, you don't have enough AI credits. to Yeah. That's a throwback. If you don't get that, then... You're not even a fan. Just kidding. um If you love this show, it would mean...
Speaker: So much to us. If you gave us five stars on whatever podcast catcher you're listening to, give us a thumbs up on YouTube, hit that subscribe button, smash that. Like, but whatever they say.
Speaker: Yeah, no, no, no, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Knock it out. just Destroy it. Just punch punch your monitor. Don't do that. um Also.
Speaker: Uh, we've had We've had quite a few emails, actually. Uh, overtheologizing at gmail .com. um some possible guests in the future. We've had some really interesting.
Speaker: intriguing emails. um Surprising given the fact that This is a show with you and I. Just two dudes who don't really know what they're doing. um Yeah, and then also X. x slash twitter over the ah at over theologizer hit us up on there um we do have a youtube community ah we We are not the most active on our socials. We're working on that. We're going to.
Speaker: we're We're trying to work it out. Yeah. yeah we're uh like we said at the top of the episode this is kind of our foray into having video as well so Maybe, maybe we'll have some clips out there, make an Instagram or something. YouTube reels like, or YouTube shorts, excuse me, Instagram reels, YouTube shorts.
Speaker: Yep yep yep. This is why I don't do that much. so for I can't keep them all straight. um Also. While you're... There. adding us on X slash Twitter. Head over to theologizer.
Speaker: Make sure you tag Wes Huff. Take care of yourself. Like we've been saying. See if we can get him on at some point. We have reached out. ah I don't know if anybody.
Speaker: remembers that or if we ever said anything um We have reached out, actually. so who knows maybe maybe one day if you give us enough likes and subscribes and all that maybe maybe he'll notice us i'm just gonna throw it out there like wes love you man And if you want to have an easier podcast than going on all the podcasts with skeptics and atheists and Muslims and stuff. Just come on here. Just hang out. Well, the great part is, you know, we're doing this online.
Speaker: ah Joe and I don't even live it in the same state. So yeah. yeah if if If we can do this, we can totally just add one more like we've done many times before. Wes, you're not that busy.
Speaker: I'm just kidding I know those facts and so probably take a long time to make. And also on YouTube. that's That's true. I've also put out a few feelers for some other.
Speaker: Potentially interesting guests. so boom boom boom hopefully hopefully we'll have that um but yeah um are we missing anything I don't, I think that's it.
Speaker: Love you guys. Thanks for listening. You guys are the best.
Speaker: I hit the wrong sound cue. Whoops. We're new to this. we're new to this Yeah, we're having to do some things different. but yeah i We appreciate your patience. Love you guys.
Speaker: See you, Joe.
