Transcript
Speaker: Aloha and welcome to episode two in a three-part series on pedagogy in the Hawaiian Islands.
Speaker: My name is Noah Ranslund and I'm a student from the University of Massachusetts Amherst interning here at the Human Restoration Project.
Speaker: Before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this is brought to you by our supporters, three of whom are John O'Brien, Keith Mathias, and Trevor Oleo.
Speaker: Mahalo Nui for your ongoing support.
Speaker: You can learn more about the Human Restoration Project on our website, humanrestorationproject.org, or find us on X, Instagram, or YouTube.
Speaker: The teachers who students remember people who care about the newest school to get a crazy-to-one girl from 18 years old,
Speaker: In this episode, we delve into the research of Dr. Stacey Potas and her place-based pedagogical framework for Hawaiian youth.
Speaker: Stacey Potas, PhD, is an assistant professor at the University of Hawaii at Manoa College of Education in Secondary Mathematics.
Speaker: Dr. Potas currently teaches undergraduate and graduate courses in teacher preparation, including secondary mathematics models and multicultural education.
Speaker: Previously, she worked as a mathematics lecturer at the University of Hawaii, West O'ahu, for five years and as a secondary mathematics teacher for 13 years in the Department of Education.
Speaker: She focuses on contextualizing mathematics education by incorporating mathematics, culture, and sustainability.
Speaker: Her research is rooted in Hawaii and influenced the development of a framework that includes place-conscious pedagogy, culturally responsive pedagogy, and critical ethno-mathematics pedagogy.
Speaker: Hi, Dr. Potas.
Speaker: Thank you for joining me today.
Speaker: Hey, thanks for having me.
Speaker: Your dissertation that you did in ethnomathematics, I read it and it's super interesting.
Speaker: And I want to know, first off, what motivated you to go into pedagogy and ethnomathematics as your area of academic interest?
Speaker: Yeah, thanks for reading it.
Speaker: So I was born and raised in Hawaii, and I spent a lot of time near the ocean growing up.
Speaker: And my dad was a fisherman, so I spent hours at a time at the beach.
Speaker: And I can remember spending time in the tide pools, and I was so fascinated by everything.
Speaker: But it wasn't until later in life I realized just how much I learned by just being there, simply observing the
Speaker: you know, wind direction, tide changes, all of that just by just being there.
Speaker: And so there's this o lalo no eao or a Hawaiian proverb that clearly speaks to that.
Speaker: And it goes, observe with the eyes, listen with the ears and shut the mouth.
Speaker: and so that was kind of my childhood but when I went to school learning was very different for me and so I don't know if you've seen them if you guys have seen the movie Moana but she had like this very strong pull towards the ocean right and I think it's very common for islanders to also be very just drawn towards the ocean and I also felt that
Speaker: But when I was in school, I can really remember high school specifically, I remember always trying to choose the window seat.
Speaker: And I would just stare out the window and look at all the elements outside.
Speaker: And especially in math class, I feel like math class is a lot about memorization and procedures for me.
Speaker: And so I just would think to myself, why can't we be studying math outside?
Speaker: Look at all the things that are happening.
Speaker: And
Speaker: I would actually be making predictions about what the waves looked like that day instead of really focusing on the math that I was supposed to be focusing on.
Speaker: Also later, I taught mathematics for 13 years at a public high school.
Speaker: for the majority of those 13 years, I can really say that I was just consumed by state test scores and standards.
Speaker: And it really wasn't until my last two years teaching that in high school that I realized that.
Speaker: And those last two years,
Speaker: I volunteered to teach this class called Modeling Our World and that class just came out and the typical student in that class just didn't like math.
Speaker: Some of those students had previously failed math and some of those students just needed a last credit just to graduate and so I took that as an opportunity and I thought to myself what is the best way to teach this class
Speaker: in a way that students can benefit.
Speaker: And so my entire curriculum was based on projects.
Speaker: We did projects every quarter.
Speaker: projects like car loans, building a city, shark tank, designing, selling t-shirts.
Speaker: And I've never had so many students in my class during lunch and after school.
Speaker: And one student even came back the following year and she said, my car broke down, my mom took me to the dealership and guess what?
Speaker: I brought my car loan project to the dealership and I was completely just blown away.
Speaker: For me, this was learning and this was the point of no return in terms of how I taught mathematics.
Speaker: And so
Speaker: As that was happening, that pull towards the ocean continued, sparked my interest in sustainability.
Speaker: And at the same time, bits and pieces, I was learning about the overthrow of the Hawaiian kingdom in 1893.
Speaker: And I was just shocked and in disbelief about things that I had no idea about and happened to a place where I lived my entire life.
Speaker: And at the same time, I was starting to notice with that, like,
Speaker: the beaches that I was growing up on were starting to really change.
Speaker: And so I realized that all these topics, you have mathematics, culture, sustainability, they're all very much related.
Speaker: And so this is where my interest in pedagogy and ethnomathematics stem from.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: And so in your dissertation, you sort of describe this IANA-based framework, and you highlight three core elements of it.
Speaker: There's this little triangle, and you have all these elements.
Speaker: And so the three elements that I want to talk about are this place consciousness, cultural responsiveness, and this idea of critical ethnomathematics.
Speaker: And so could you describe...
Speaker: what those are and explain how they sort of fit together into one cohesive framework.
Speaker: Right, yeah.
Speaker: So if you can visualize what you're explaining kind of in a triangle, the three components are situated in like a lokahi symbol in balance, in harmony, all trying to work together with each other.
Speaker: And the epistemology behind the framework is sort of based on three theories.
Speaker: So social cultural learning theory, cultural capital theory and critical theory.
Speaker: And so
Speaker: Really, what counts as knowledge in math education?
Speaker: It plays a central role in social cultural perspectives with roots in Vygotsky's theory of learning.
Speaker: And it's based on the idea that the learner's environment plays a pivotal role in his or her learning development.
Speaker: And in other words, learning is a social process.
Speaker: And then cultural capital theory, Bordeaux's by Pierre Bordeaux, states that math is historically refined through social structures that privilege certain groups.
Speaker: And so learners engage in this activity with the habitus.
Speaker: It's shaped by their socialization within the family, their home and immediate environment.
Speaker: And this shapes the way they act and interpret their world.
Speaker: So consequently, academic success for students is in part shaped by how where the habitus is aligned to the habitus that's expected in schools.
Speaker: And then lastly, critical theory, right?
Speaker: It draws from Paulo Freire's problem posing pedagogy, where
Speaker: Students develop the power to perceive critically the way they exist in the world, and that's opposed to depositing information into students and what he calls the banking education process.
Speaker: And so he also seeks to rehumanize education where students become agents of curiosity, agents of change.
Speaker: And so the idea of these three kind of theories together developed the start of this framework.
Speaker: And so the three components within the framework are, there's Hawaiian phrases that I use to kind of name them.
Speaker: And there's pilina, kuleana, and pono.
Speaker: So pilina, we'll start with that component, right?
Speaker: And that's where place-conscious pedagogy comes into play.
Speaker: And pilina is loosely defined as an association, relationship, a connection.
Speaker: And so in this particular framework, pilina refers to connection between teacher and student, right?
Speaker: connection with the environment and connection to one's community.
Speaker: And so that's where place conscious education really comes into play where students get to explore the place where their school is situated and get to understand the places that each of them come from and really get engaged with that and bring it into the classroom.
Speaker: And so they develop this sense of belonging and sense of Hawaii while they're in that process.
Speaker: And then that leads to the second component, which is kuleana.
Speaker: And kuleana is speaking of values, responsibility.
Speaker: And once students gain that connection through that pilina component, they can start to understand the values and
Speaker: responsibilities that they hold.
Speaker: But they can't get there yet if they're not yet connected, right?
Speaker: And so this is where culturally responsive education comes from.
Speaker: Really trying to you really can't talk about place, I think, without talking about culture, because they go hand in hand with each other.
Speaker: But once students start to really understand their kuleana for certain places,
Speaker: then and only then will they be able to act upon it, right?
Speaker: They can make choices, they can speak up for these certain places.
Speaker: And so that's where the last component, Pono, comes into play.
Speaker: And Pono is a very vast, there's a very large definition, but really it's like righteousness, uprightness, moral, correct, right?
Speaker: And so maintaining balance with these relationships and connections
Speaker: built on values, responsibility, connection, requires living with that conscious decision to do right.
Speaker: So that's where critical ethnomathematics comes into play, where once they go through all of this, they're learning mathematics, they begin to see it as a tool.
Speaker: Now, how can I use this math to really contribute to the community where I'm from, make contributions to any kind of issues that are going on within the world?
Speaker: So those are the three components in that framework that kind of work together, but also,
Speaker: are individually very, very heavy, but not meant to be separated from each other.
Speaker: This framework is also based on Nahopena'a'o and Nahopena'a'o is a framework that has been put out into the DOE Department of Education school system in 2015.
Speaker: And it really reflects makahanaka ike, so in doing one learns.
Speaker: And it's based on these six core values of sense of belonging, responsibility, excellence, aloha, total well-being, and Hawaii.
Speaker: And so all of that kind of working in collaboration with the framework is what is intended behind the framework.
Speaker: It's interesting to me that you...
Speaker: use the term tool to describe math.
Speaker: So, so a little bit about me, I'm a, I'm actually a math major and I definitely have sort of developed in this, I think maybe more Western centered idea of what mathematics is, but particularly from the perspective of viewing math as something valuable in and of itself, like philosophy, um, viewing math more from a, right.
Speaker: From like a philosophical framework than from a, you know, um,
Speaker: tool-based framework or a usefulness.
Speaker: And something that struck me in reading about critical Hawaiian pedagogy is that that understanding of math specifically, but in general, the sort of culture of academics and
Speaker: I don't want to say is rejected necessarily, but it's certainly not emphasized.
Speaker: So I'm curious from my perspective as someone who thinks that math should be taught, not just on its own, but certainly to some degree as something to be studied for its own sake.
Speaker: I'm curious if you think that there's any room in your framework for math to be valuable in and of itself, or only really as a tool to explore more culturally or personally relevant topics.
Speaker: Yeah, so, well, in terms of math, and if you think of a math student in the classroom, I think that every student, indigenous or not, local or not, Hawaiian or not, all have a kuleana behind why they're in that certain classroom, why they're located in that certain space, right?
Speaker: And I think when we're in the classroom, oftentimes it's really easy to really just forget about just simply that.
Speaker: Why are we teaching these students math?
Speaker: Why is this student here in this math class?
Speaker: And I think if we can situate math in terms of what is real for them in terms of the context behind the math, right?
Speaker: then, then they're not going to, you won't hear that question anymore.
Speaker: Like, how am I going to use this in real life?
Speaker: That's a question that is often wondered in math classes by students, right?
Speaker: And that will be no longer because it will already be real life.
Speaker: They're already be applying it in within the framework.
Speaker: And so math in terms of like a Western context, right?
Speaker: There's a lot of
Speaker: memorization, following the formula, and just procedure over and over and over.
Speaker: And for some that might be okay, but I think in the world in which we live in now, there's a lot of, you know, AI is taking over.
Speaker: AI has, there's a lot of play in education right now too, right?
Speaker: And so we really need critical thinkers.
Speaker: And if we just have our students in terms of math, memorize, memorize, memorize,
Speaker: then they're gonna lose that critical part.
Speaker: And we want to humanize them, right?
Speaker: We want to see them as humans being able to think for themselves and apply the math.
Speaker: And so when they get out into the workforce, they're not just another robot spitting out information.
Speaker: They're able to adjust, adapt to situations and they'll be seen as more valuable.
Speaker: And so the math, I think,
Speaker: there's probably a small percentage of students that will be like math majors, right?
Speaker: Or mathematicians.
Speaker: And so I think teaching to a framework in terms of context and being able to relate it to the students, I think will be a way, a more universal approach to teach for all students.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that's super interesting.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: I mean, I definitely see that because, you know, I'm weird and the fact that I like math is probably a little weird for a lot of people.
Speaker: But yeah, I definitely see that for the majority of students, they're not going to think about math the way that I do or the way that, you know, someone who wants to go into math does.
Speaker: And I definitely see the necessity for your average student who just needs to learn the math that they need to learn, you know, to...
Speaker: do the things that they need to do and work the jobs that they need to do, that they still need to have a framework for understanding it that allows them to find themselves in it.
Speaker: I really do see that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Cause I think that's even in the, under the best of circumstances, I don't necessarily think there's going to be a lot of people who find that, that passion in math.
Speaker: And so sort of moving on from that, um, in what areas do you see, you know, focusing on the specific problems in Hawaiian education, um, in what areas do you see native Hawaiian youth falling behind in school?
Speaker: And how does this framework that you've constructed address those discrepancies?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, so that's, I guess, kind of related right to the previous question and in terms of context.
Speaker: But according to the US Census, Hawaii has the highest diversity index rate at 76%.
Speaker: And so
Speaker: That should say that education should be a little bit different in terms of who we're teaching to.
Speaker: Also along with that, Hawai'i's math scores are consistently below average, below that proficiency mark.
Speaker: It's even lower for indigenous or Pacific communities.
Speaker: Native Hawaiian students in particular, along with Pacific Islander students, are among the lowest performing groups.
Speaker: If we understand that Indigenous people carry this deep and intimate connection to place, I mean, it's evident in place names in Hawaii.
Speaker: If you look into place names in Hawaii, there's mo'olelo or stories that are connected to all of the places.
Speaker: and they're passed down from generation to generation.
Speaker: It really is a map or guide that really helps people get back to their roots.
Speaker: And also, in Hawaii, a common question if you meet someone, and I know you probably heard this, Noah coming to Hawaii, is where are you from?
Speaker: What school did you graduate from?
Speaker: That's a common question when you first meet someone in Hawaii.
Speaker: Why is that?
Speaker: Well, that's because people feel more comfortable when they're connected to places and people that are from the same area.
Speaker: And they really value and they're proud of where they come from.
Speaker: And that's that building Palina part, right?
Speaker: And so in the classroom, it's no different.
Speaker: Say you have a student that you find out is...
Speaker: interested in diving.
Speaker: It likes to dive.
Speaker: The student likes to dive.
Speaker: If you ask a student who likes to dive about that, you would be blown away at the amount of knowledge that can come from these students.
Speaker: And so I think...
Speaker: inviting that knowledge into the classroom takes away all of the anxiety in the math class and the stigma that I'm no good at math.
Speaker: I'm just not a math person.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: All of those negative identities that's associated with math can kind of be broken down a little bit because students now have a voice in the class.
Speaker: Students cannot participate in the mathematical discussions.
Speaker: They have something to contribute.
Speaker: Because there's a lot of math.
Speaker: If you think about diving, there's a lot of math in all of these students' interests.
Speaker: And so it's putting math into that cultural context that allows all students to participate, right?
Speaker: All the voices to be valued in the classroom.
Speaker: So I think the framework does just that.
Speaker: It helps those students to intersect their knowledge that they have already with new mathematical knowledge.
Speaker: and then put it together into action.
Speaker: And so when math becomes more contextualized, they're more engaged, they're more invested, and they realize how much they can really do in math.
Speaker: And I think, you know, those issues, those problems with test scores and being below the proficiency mark, I think if we kind of focus more on the student, then those scores will come in terms of math.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you think that
Speaker: this framework and this connection, you know, you talk a little bit about standardized testing.
Speaker: And I think in general, you know, there's potentially value in that.
Speaker: But I think that in general, I and a lot of other people interested in progressive pedagogy would argue that, and especially in a context like Hawaii, where there is such a, you know, deep rooted history of subjugation, you know, do you think that
Speaker: that your framework points to and necessitates more fundamentals, structural changes in how education is done in Hawaii?
Speaker: Um, I hope so.
Speaker: Um, I really do hope so in terms of like how Hawaii is constantly, I think, going through struggles with land use, water use, and, um,
Speaker: students are constantly battling outside of school as well with a lot of, you know, social, social, emotional issues.
Speaker: And I think that this framework will help that and will help to kind of give them that opportunity to look at their education a little bit in terms of a different light and to see that, you know,
Speaker: It is something that they'll be able to use outside of the classroom.
Speaker: And a lot of the issues that are going on around them are very much related and very much something that they don't have to have a hands-on approach to, right?
Speaker: They can place themselves in it and they can, in fact, contribute to what's going on.
Speaker: I think that answered your question.
Speaker: I'm not sure.
Speaker: Yeah, no, definitely.
Speaker: And I'm curious, have you seen or have you started to like do any work yet on implementing this framework in schools in Hawaii or otherwise?
Speaker: Yeah, so actually I did a study on undergraduate students.
Speaker: There's 126 undergraduate students and I tested academic achievement and student motivation.
Speaker: And so implementing this framework, what I found was that at the end,
Speaker: the average math score or the average grade was an 89.9% with a standard deviation of 10.16.
Speaker: And so that's great, right?
Speaker: That's huge.
Speaker: When you look more closely at that number, the maximum grade received was 100%, but the minimum grade was a 36.14%.
Speaker: So really low grade.
Speaker: And this person...
Speaker: of course didn't pass the class, right?
Speaker: So this is an undergraduate course, they need a 70% in the class to move on to the next math course or to get credit.
Speaker: And so I looked a little bit more closely at those students who didn't pass.
Speaker: And what I found was just amazing, mind blowing.
Speaker: So when I looked closely at all these students who got 70% or below, I looked at the comments that they left in regards to the class.
Speaker: And it turns out that although they didn't pass, they have to take the class again, they didn't receive credit, they all left positive remarks.
Speaker: All of the comments were positive.
Speaker: In fact, one person, and this is the person that scored the lowest, that 36.14%.
Speaker: This person says, I enjoyed the class.
Speaker: I like the connection of math to real issues, and I've become more attentive to the environment.
Speaker: Another person that didn't pass said, math was never appealing to me.
Speaker: The way the course incorporated Hawaiian culture and ecological preservation into the curriculum made it so much more enjoyable.
Speaker: So for me, even though these students didn't
Speaker: pass the course, they still come out of this course successfully.
Speaker: They're still coming out with being able to apply the math to be able to see the connections.
Speaker: And so for me, this was very much a success.
Speaker: And
Speaker: In terms of motivation, motivation was also measured quantitatively and that was very similar to the average grade at an 89.8%.
Speaker: So students were equally motivated in terms of their academic success.
Speaker: So I hope to do more studies on this with a different population.
Speaker: This was done on undergraduate statistics students.
Speaker: And I hope to do more projects like this, perhaps in the high school level with different, a variety of classes, right?
Speaker: Not just statistics, but algebra one, geometry, and all those different content topics in the high school level as well.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: Yeah, and I've definitely noticed sort of going off of what you were saying, I've definitely noticed at least people my age, you know, younger, well, mid to younger Gen Z people, I've definitely noticed that there's this really strong pushback against sort of cultural hegemony, right?
Speaker: I feel like there's a lot of people now my age who are trying to sort of carve out, and I'm sure this has always been true, but I've really seen this,
Speaker: a lot now that there are students who are pushing back against the sort of like hegemonizing forces of the society we live in and carving out their identities for themselves and reclaiming their identities.
Speaker: Do you see your framework as responding to that?
Speaker: Or do you see it as a framework that intends to sort of promote that?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, I think the framework is very inviting.
Speaker: And very, yeah, I mean, it does help in terms of like student identity is huge, right?
Speaker: And students are now in the phases where they want to speak out.
Speaker: They're becoming more attentive to who they are, to where they come from.
Speaker: And I think the framework allows for that, allows for including everybody into the classroom.
Speaker: And so when students
Speaker: I think students can bring that into the classroom.
Speaker: The learning only becomes more powerful.
Speaker: I think we continue, if we butt heads, you know, with individuals, then there's, there's always going to be that wall up in terms of how, in terms of the learning.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I definitely think that the framework is inclusive for everybody.
Speaker: And for, for that kind of idea that identities are now being brought to the forefront of students and,
Speaker: they're speaking out about it.
Speaker: So I love that.
Speaker: I love that everybody can be open and be who they are in the classroom.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: And so sort of moving past the Hawaiian context, where do you see educators outside of that context able to use this framework that you've created?
Speaker: How do you imagine it could be sort of retweaked and reworked for a variety of different contexts?
Speaker: Yeah, so one thing actually I noticed in the framework when I was doing a study is that there are actually students who, you know, were not from Hawaii that kind of was like, you know, a little bit unfamiliar with these Hawaiian terms that I am using within the framework or in the class.
Speaker: But
Speaker: at first they're uncomfortable, but I think when we start to talk really about place, that's universal for everybody, right?
Speaker: That everybody can relate to place.
Speaker: Everybody's breathing the same air.
Speaker: We're all surrounded by the same ocean here in Hawaii.
Speaker: And that's common for everybody and grounds for everybody to speak about.
Speaker: So in non-native Hawaiian classroom context, I think,
Speaker: The framework's focus on place conscious education is really a starting point.
Speaker: So in a sense, the framework can be applied to all classrooms, not just classrooms in Hawaii.
Speaker: And really the framework's not meant to be like a step by step manual, right?
Speaker: It's meant to be adaptive, to be fluid, depending on the teacher, depending on the students, depending on the location.
Speaker: that's what it's meant to do is to be able to put the curriculum in the hands of the educator and to bring their students into it and to really design it themselves based on the three components and the three pedagogical perspectives.
Speaker: And so the ultimate goal, I think, of education,
Speaker: of the framework is to not put an emphasis on scores, right?
Speaker: I really don't see academic achievement in terms of scores and grades, but really fostering critical thinking, providing tools for students to be able to see and support their communities, no matter where they are, really just to be stewards in those aspects, in those places that they come from.
Speaker: And so I think in non-native Hawaiian classrooms, the framework
Speaker: is meant to adapt to that, is meant to take a hold of the particular place that the educator is in and explore that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: And then before we start to wrap up here, is there anything else about the work that you've done that you think is important that we haven't discussed so far?
Speaker: Well, it's definitely still a work in progress and it's been adapting as we speak.
Speaker: But I think that I would like to say that the framework, you know, is meant for the educator as well to kind of go through this process of learning.
Speaker: Pilina, Kuleana, and Pono for themselves.
Speaker: So I've went through this process myself, I think, as I've developed the framework.
Speaker: And I think that would kind of be like the first thing I would say if an educator is thinking about this is to start with Pilina, go into the community, right?
Speaker: Develop relationships and
Speaker: understand place and make those community connections, do community service, talk to the locals in the area, and just try to understand some of the issues that are going around in the community.
Speaker: develop that pilina.
Speaker: And then also ask yourself, what is my kuleana as an educator?
Speaker: What are my responsibilities?
Speaker: Why am I here?
Speaker: What are my goals?
Speaker: What are my intentions?
Speaker: And lastly, how can I make a difference?
Speaker: Educators have this huge ability to impact so many people and can potentially create massive positive change in communities and environments.
Speaker: And so I would just advise people
Speaker: anyone looking at the framework to think how they could go through this progression themselves and put themselves in this progression before they can implement it in the classroom.
Speaker: And this sort of answers my last question, but, you know, moving on from just this particular framework, what advice would you give to educators who want to incorporate these ideas, but also just progressive pedagogy and critical pedagogy into their lesson plans, particularly in environments where maybe
Speaker: there's a little bit more hostility towards those ideas.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So really, yeah, same thing is just go through that progression.
Speaker: But with enough education, there's so many aspects to teaching for educators that it's so easy, right, to get caught up in standards and grades.
Speaker: And not to say that they're not important, but, and, you know,
Speaker: Standards need to be included in lesson plans and curriculum.
Speaker: But I would say to start with the student, meet the students where they are, really think of the student first and how can you get their voice?
Speaker: How can you understand them a little bit more before we start to insert all of these standards into our practice?
Speaker: Really focus on the student, I think is huge and at the heart of education.
Speaker: focusing on the student.
Speaker: Awesome.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much for talking to me.
Speaker: It was great having you.
Speaker: Thanks, Noah.
Speaker: Thank you again for listening to our podcast at Human Restoration Project.
Speaker: I hope this conversation leaves you inspired and ready to start making change.
Speaker: If you enjoyed listening, please consider leaving us a review on your favorite podcast player.
Speaker: Plus, find a whole host of free resources, writings, and other podcasts all for free on our website, humanrestorationproject.org.
Speaker: Thank you.
