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The FOGO Gap with Tony Chappel, CEO, NSW EPA
253 Plays1 month ago
What happens when bold organics mandates meet real world infrastructure gaps? Tony Chappel, CEO, NSW EPA joins us to unpack the risks, realities, and opportunities behind NSW’s FOGO rollout. This episode covers that and so much more. From what good leadership looks like, to ridiculous packaging, to who’s really moving the needle in circularity.
What is FOGO?
FOGO stands for Food Organics and Garden Organics. It’s a separate bin system for collecting food scraps and garden waste so they can be composted or regenerated instead of being sent to landfill. The goal is to cut harmful emissions, recover valuable nutrients, and support a more circular waste system.
The Draft NSW Waste and Circular Infrastructure Plan is open for feedback for one more week.
Now’s the time to help shape how we build the systems we actually need.
📩 Submit your feedback: https://yoursay.epa.nsw.gov.au/draft-nsw-waste-and-circular-infrastructure-plan
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Transcript
Recycling Myths: Fraud or Reality?
00:00:02
Speaker
I have one family member who still maintains that the whole yellow bin is a fraud perpetrated on society and it just goes into landfill. As ah an individual, one of the biggest things we can do to address the climate crisis is to separately collect our food and garden.
Leadership's Role in Sustainability Success
00:00:20
Speaker
material and when the CEO um is focused on a step change in sustainability it happens and when the CEO is not focused on that it's very very hard to push against that or to get it onto the agenda.
00:00:35
Speaker
When you start measuring greenhouse gases they tend to fall by about eight percent
00:00:43
Speaker
For the longest time, our waste has just gone away and we never had to think about it again. Today, there's no away left. Countries around the world are facing the challenge of replacing their aging infrastructure without interrupting critical services.
Introduction to 'Loopholes' Podcast
00:01:01
Speaker
Welcome to Loopholes, a podcast investigating breakdowns and breakthroughs in circular systems and infrastructure. We'll dig into what's broken, what's working, and how we can close the loop for good.
00:01:15
Speaker
I'm one of your hosts, Justin Frank, circular economy and supply chain expert, and I'm delighted to introduce my co-host, the best strategic and infrastructure advisor in the business, Kate Dryden from Sphere Infrastructure.
Collaboration in Waste Management
00:01:29
Speaker
Today's guest is Tony Chappell, the CEO of the New South Wales Environment Protection Authority. What makes Tony's approach distinct since taking the helm in 2022 is his push for a more collaborative and solutions-driven relationship with the waste and resource recovery sector.
00:01:47
Speaker
In an interview with Inside Waste, Tony describes the deeper conversations that need to happen to help operators innovate and asked, how do we make it easier for them and take that into government? And that's exactly why we're here today, to dive into the New South Wales EPA's plans for landfill, pathways to circular infrastructure and policy frameworks.
00:02:08
Speaker
Tony is at the forefront of how New South Wales is responding to the waste and infrastructure gap, and we're thrilled to have him here to kick off our podcast.
Acknowledging Indigenous Land
00:02:16
Speaker
We're bringing this podcast to you on Gadigal land.
00:02:19
Speaker
Infrastructure plays a key part in keeping the soils and waterways clear and clean. We want to pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging. Welcome, Tony.
00:02:31
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you both. Good to be here. Yeah, lovely to to have you here.
Role and Independence of the EPA
00:02:35
Speaker
So let's kick things off with the the easy thing, the stats. Tell us but about your role and and really more importantly, how did you come to be working in this sector?
00:02:45
Speaker
Well, EPA in New South Wales is really interesting creature. It's about as independent as a government agency can be, but it also obviously can't get anything good done without being very closely aligned with the government. So we're a regulator, but we also provide policy advice on circular economy and climate and other dimensions of pollution.
Tony Chappell's Career in Sustainability
00:03:05
Speaker
And then we deliver programs for government as well. This is my first government job. I'm not a career public servant. I started out in the law and I'm a recovering lawyer. We were talking about that before. Well, forgive you. yeah So yeah, I was a corporate lawyer and then I went and got into finance and did an MBA. I worked in equity capital markets, but I was always very motivated by kind of clean tech and sustainability driven innovation and how do you commercialise that and also yeah how do you catalise that more broadly.
00:03:37
Speaker
um And i was lucky enough in my 30s to get a um scholarship to give me some funding to go and do some more study in that area, which I hadn't really... studied academically and spent a few years in the yeah UK working in research afterwards and then came back to Australia. And i guess my roles um were really about kind of going into corporate context where I thought there was a lot of room to improve. And I worked in the mining sector, I worked in the energy sector.
00:04:04
Speaker
so I've worked for some of the big polluters um that the EPA has to engage with and sort of helping trying to drive what you might call positive change from within or, you know, supportive of corporate sustainability agendas.
00:04:17
Speaker
um But the ability to then... I suppose, helped to inform the architecture as a whole that sets the system up, attracted me to my my former role, which was at the Australian Energy Market Operator, and then was what made this role so attractive. Great.
00:04:32
Speaker
So a really broad spectrum then of of experience on on both sides of of the of the spectrum. I hope so. Yeah, good. Well, it probably informs that collaborative sort of mindset that you have because you've seen it from all sides.
Engaging with Aboriginal Communities
00:04:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:04:46
Speaker
um Look, I think let's let's unpack it a little bit um because, you know, you you mentioned we're on Gadigal land and for the EPA embedding what um people call traditional ecological knowledge or the the knowledge that Aboriginal elders have sort of built up over thousands of generations about management of the land and water and other natural resources is a real priority. But actually the most significant shift for us as we've gone on that journey is around collaboration and this concept of deep listening that anyone listening who's done, you know, engagement with Aboriginal communities will know you can't just turn up and get down to business and do a transaction if you're going to be taken seriously.
00:05:27
Speaker
It's a cultural expectation that you share your story and where you come from and what you're on about and you also extend that respect to the people you want to engage with and they will share their perspective with you and their background and story ah and give you a much deeper context for then whatever it is that you're trying to do
Circular Economy Commitment and Challenges
00:05:50
Speaker
collaboratively. And that kind of deep listening is not something government traditionally does. In fact, I think in yeah in Anglo-Saxon culture, I don't think anyone really does it in that way. And it's one of the great cultural gifts of our inheritance as Australians that the first Australians have um and continue to offer us um if we pick it up. And for the EPA, that's been very much central to how we not only seek to engage with Aboriginal communities, but seek to do our broader work. And so you're right. Like I said, I mean,
00:06:19
Speaker
I say to even you know the industries we regulate, we're always going to have part of our relationship where if we need to, we'll hold you to account. But there's a much bigger potential part of our relationship, which is about this transformation to a circular low carbon future, which we can only create with a new kind of collaboration that we haven't seen previously, really, in Australia. And that's very much what we're up for. Yeah, you listening to understand rather than just listening to hear and and put your point across. yeah So some of our listeners might not be as immersed into infrastructure and policy and and frameworks as we are here. So you work in circularity and and waste and resource recovery, ah but what do you still throw in the bin that makes you feel a little uneasy about it?
Household Recycling: Myths and Realities
00:07:05
Speaker
A few things, and there's plenty of arguments in my house about what goes in the bin.
00:07:11
Speaker
Usually it's... me trying to explain that that's actually not recyclable, so it shouldn't really go in the yellow bin. But I mean, I do like, I feel bad every time I put old clothes that have sort of passed their viability into the bin. Yep.
00:07:27
Speaker
I do feel bad about that. You know, plenty of plastic goes in the bin still, obviously soft plastic and Some of the others. I have one family member who still maintains that the whole yellow bin is a fraud perpetrated on society and it just goes into landfill. and does that Does that make you angry? like i and i just I feel like we should clear it up because there are so many people who say that and yet, you know, we know...
00:07:53
Speaker
I think all of us working in this sector, that actually there is, when when there is a yellow bin collection offered, there is a well-developed system. yeah. this it the yellow bin doesn't go straight to landfill. And so it it boils my blood when when people still kind of talk like that. and Unless it's full of contamination. Unless it's completely full of contamination. But even the argument that one little you know one little piece of contamination is going to send this whole bin to landfill, it's like, guys, listeners, that is not true. But please don't contaminate because lots of contamination, yes, it will.
00:08:33
Speaker
Yeah, no, I just try and... Gently. kind i've like a lot of contested issues that I have to do is if I boiled my blood on every time someone said something outlandish. That's right. It'd be bright red and it wouldn't be good for your health. um So what do you think the yeah the the system needs to move from being linear to circular?
Infrastructure Needs for a Circular Economy
00:08:56
Speaker
Oh, well, I mean, it's a whole, it's a paradigm shift. It's like an industrial revolution, but it's one we need to kind of orchestrate in a sensible, efficient way. So it's one of the hardest challenges we've confronted really as a society. And, you know, we obviously need infrastructure, but we also need the collection systems. You know, you've referenced that already. We need the markets um and the skills to bring it all together. And we need high quality projects.
00:09:23
Speaker
tools and and regulation that ensures people aren't sort of free riding or avoiding their responsibilities. yeah The tragedy the commons means there'll always be plenty of businesses who can get a viable model up that does the bare minimum.
00:09:40
Speaker
So we need to shift the whole system. There'll always be leaders, um but if we want a truly circular economy, ah every every part of a of that value chain, you know, needs to shift systemically.
00:09:54
Speaker
Yeah. And you've got your plan that that I know um we're keen to sort of hear about um here. and And, I mean, that's the beginning, the beginning of that shift, I suppose.
00:10:06
Speaker
um Well, ah look, I mean... That's one one component. That's really about the infrastructure. So yeah as part of our engagement with industry, we've really sort of dived into what the challenges are in developing precincts or installations and infrastructure.
00:10:23
Speaker
And one of the biggest ones is navigating the the planning assessment process and the differing perspectives various agencies take and um how sort of paralysing that can be and and how much of a break on investment, therefore, it is. And so...
00:10:38
Speaker
This plan enunciates a series of actions for the first two parts of our waste and infrastructure plan. This is really just the first two chapters. So it's looking at food and garden organics and then the residuals infrastructure needs in for Greater Sydney.
00:10:54
Speaker
And the next two chapters will deal with the regions of New South Wales. Obviously, there's big state beyond Greater Sydney um and also the other material streams. um So in these first two,
00:11:06
Speaker
ah We've really looked at the landfill crisis that Sydney's facing in terms of capacity constraints and the broader challenge of um for food and garden organic infrastructure, transfer stations processing and and other um needs for that system, which is now you know mandated for um the statewide by 2030 and businesses sooner. And plenty of local government areas are already doing some part of it all yeah or all parts of it. So,
00:11:33
Speaker
um how do we make sure we get the right infrastructure in the right place that considers carbon and, you know, produces high quality output? So how do we solve for that challenge and and support local councils in um educating and supporting their communities with the right nudges and resources as well to participate in that? Because it's a very heterogeneous product. You know, it's every family, every person in the state really um needs to be a part of it. Yeah, absolutely. And and you mentioned the crisis, so we've we've definitely got a time ticking against us to to make these changes we need to act now.
00:12:11
Speaker
um How do you think we got here? how How did we get to this crisis point? What do you think is led up to that?
Historical Context of Landfill Issues
00:12:18
Speaker
Look, these are these are hard issues. I mean, landfills are not popular pieces of infrastructure. you know um Historically, the regulation around them was extremely lax. I mean, there are places that sort of toxic material was just poured onto the ground and that was considered the right way to dispose of it. And since World War II, we've had this proliferation that's really continued through COVID to sort of accelerate of
00:12:43
Speaker
kind of consumerism and disposability. So the need's been growing and then, you know, governments and various persuasions have preferred a private model to sort of public infrastructure, which, um you know, then creates other challenges. um And I think fundamentally it's just an issue that if you can push it out a few more years, it can be attractive in a context of lots of other competing needs. totally You can understand during COVID why that was the number one thing. And, you know, it's about kind of catalyzing agreement across government as well, which I'm really pleased to say New South Wales government has. there's
00:13:21
Speaker
It's not just the infrastructure. There's half a dozen major reforms, you know, a couple of which have already been legislated. Yeah. to help um enable this step change to get us to at least 80% recovery of materials, but also much more circularity in our economy. Yeah, that's good. and And within the plan, it talks about yeah expediting pathways for the extension of the current landfills, which looks like it needs be done to to make sure that red bins can be collected. yeah And also looking at the energy from waste play as well, both of which are still more linear, well, they are linear rather than circular.
00:13:57
Speaker
what's What's the risk that we kind of still get stuck in that linear trajectory because we focus on those rather than really um launching into circular infrastructure and using the levies to stimulate that as an economic instrument for for
Designing for Reusability and Circularity
00:14:16
Speaker
circular infrastructure. Well, we sort of need to do all those things. And I think that's, you know, Penny Sharp is the the New South Wales Environment Minister convened this um summit ah at the back end of last year and um it really allowed the government to share
00:14:32
Speaker
um the integrated thinking we've been doing around circularity. So we obviously need to deal with the residual waste stream, at least for the next few decades in some ways. um I mean, an energy to waste technology...
00:14:47
Speaker
I think probably does have a place and it's something that can recover significant materials yeah and obviously energy. yeah yeah um And that can be reused and otherwise that would go to landfill. um But I think part of the magic that you're referencing is not, um you know, making sure we're we're pulling out the the recoverable and recyclable materials before we get to that ultimate issue.
00:15:12
Speaker
energy from waste installation yeah to the greatest extent. And this is one reason why um i'm really pleased though the food and garden organic mandate is in place so that there's no question of these facilities being sort of an alternative for disposal of that material. We want those nutrients cycling through the economy the way they have for that for millennia. Yeah, and and it's one of the most harmful things to put into the landfill because it breaks down and creates methane. That's right. keeping those things out of landfill, and we were talking about it before we started the podcast, I think it's 8% of global greenhouse gas emissions from food waste.
00:15:48
Speaker
If it was a country, it'd be the third biggest emitter after the United States and China. So it's i mean it's wonderful to see the legislation in place and and and the plans to to keep it out of there and and and trying to drive that collaboration across both council um and large business.
00:16:02
Speaker
ah But there's still there's still a gap and that gap is going to grow. So it's it's how do we plug that gap quicker? yeah um And obviously the landfills and the energy from waste aren't going to be the solutions for that part. So how do we get other technology to the fore?
00:16:16
Speaker
That's right. And there's, I mean, it's about 40% of the red bin where there is no separation that can be food material and garden material. That's a huge amount people currently don't have an option but to deal with.
00:16:27
Speaker
But as we move to that, we're also very mindful that we want a high quality product at the end. So we're being very focused on keeping out contamination And um this is a big part of the plastic reform, which is another one of our circular economy initiatives that government's consulted on, you know, moving to a green list of safe, demonstrably safe chemistry that we want to encourage packaging manufacturers to use and a red list of dangerous chemistry that we're not comfortable having in the economy that we don't need to have so that we don't repeat some of the problems of single issue bans like BPA, which people might remember was you know found to be ah a health hazard, was phased out, but it's been replaced with a number of other quite problematic chemicals. Yeah, I think it's so right to sort of go upstream to that level.
00:17:17
Speaker
manufacturing or, you know, it's really examining our consumption and just, well, can we just not consume in the first place? But if we are, like what is it that we're actually using? What's it being packaged in? So I think, you know, I mean my perspective when you're looking at a circular, that's exactly right. Like you've got a you got to look at the the beginning yeah as well as yeah the design standard. The design is critical and a lot of people don't sort of think about that when they think about a circular economy. It actually starts,
00:17:47
Speaker
even before you get to the mind of the designer. You want to have the framework that is for circularity you in place. Yeah, because because it's a risk, isn't it? The green bin, where for those councils that do have ah yeah a separate green bin, it's pretty much a clean stream, you know introducing you know the the risk of residents getting it wrong and putting food with its packaging in there, introducing you know forever chemicals like PFAS or yeah the microplastic issues. Mm-hmm.
00:18:14
Speaker
yeah how how do we or How is the EPA and government thinking about that education yeah program to to make sure that we're all doing the right thing, if if it is a FOGO solution, um where food food waste is going
Improving Waste Sorting Through Research
00:18:29
Speaker
into the green bin? Yeah, would I mean, I'm really pleased the EPA um has done some globally, I think, quite groundbreaking behavioural work with behaviour works. um with we We call it scrap together, but it's a whole lot of tools for local governments to use to help nudge and educate different types of households about what to put in. And and the language we anchor unconsciously, it's quite interesting. Like if
00:18:54
Speaker
If you tell people put all your food scraps in the green bin, you get a lot more packaging and plastic than if you tell them put only your food scraps in. Yeah. Yes. You wouldn't think that would be different at all. but there's So there's a whole lot of, I suppose, learning that we've done through you know a whole series of pieces of work with Behaviour Works over the last few years. And we've got a toolkit for local councils. I mean we've also heard, think, loud and clear from people the local government sector, that they need ongoing resourcing um to sort of deliver this. And, you know, our ministers reference that publicly. That's the latest grant programs aim to to provide some of that ongoing confidence and that I'm sure there'll be, you know, more conversation about what what additional support's required because it's the councils who interact with the household all the time, yeah both through collections but also all the other things that you do with local councils. So we really need to be working hand in handing glove with the local government. Yeah, I think we were all at COFs the other week. I saw saw a presentation from Parramatta Council who've done a really, really engaging a yeah marketing plan to help their residents go on the FOGO journey.
00:20:01
Speaker
And again, the importance of pictures as well as words, because, you know, you've got a demographic of multicultural residents. You've got to make sure that it's easy to understand for for everybody that's using the BIN system.
00:20:13
Speaker
And also just, we we were talking before, we've got we've got young kids and, you know, they how do we how do we cut through with with them um to really understand what they can do?
00:20:27
Speaker
and it's not just a mom and dad problem or this this is too hard for me. Like what can we, you that behaviour work stuff is really interesting. Like what what's what's one message do you think that we can give to kids?
00:20:42
Speaker
Well, I think one of the really interesting messages, and you know the Inner West Mayor spoke a lot about this when they introduced FOGO, that as ah an individual, one of the biggest things we can do to address the climate crisis is to separately um collect our food and
Reducing Emissions: Food and Garden Waste
00:21:01
Speaker
garden supplies.
00:21:01
Speaker
material. yeah Because as you said, um one tonne of that in landfills, you know, more more than a tonne is about a tonne and a half of greenhouse gases. And it's it's not just CO2, it's methane, which is, you know, a highly potent greenhouse gas and very short lived. So reducing the methane we produce is one of the best things we can do to buy us more time to solve some of the other more challenging parts of the climate issue. It's a great message, I think.
00:21:27
Speaker
um People might not understand that, I think, just how powerful yeah that source separation can be. Yeah, but, I mean, the home company, I've got a worm maze at home and and it's a great way to engage the kids. So I've got an eight-year-old boy, get him involved. He loves, you know, when we do the servicing of the the worm farm, he loves having to play with the worms and, you know, he's all the, eww, whatever. So it's great fun.
00:21:47
Speaker
But then the worm wee and the worm poo is just brilliant. We've had yeah a lemon and lime tree that we got for our wedding anniversary that never produced anything. Put a bit of worm wee in there.
00:21:58
Speaker
They have bloomed. We're giving lemons and limes to our neighbours because it's just going off, right? yeah So now it's like, well, how do we now grow herbs and fruit and veg in in in the garden? You're shaming me in COVID. I tried to set up a garden, but I think I worked harder than ever have before and had no time for it. And so I've actually released our worms into the soil and just gone back to the green bin. That's right. Off you go, guys.
00:22:24
Speaker
So what do you wish people knew about the challenge of working in a circular economy? um Well, i think it's this point that it starts with design. It starts with good design. And um it's a real failure of our market economy that um we don't have reusability or circularity built into design. And it's something that needs to be collaboratively orchestrated.
00:22:49
Speaker
It won't happen naturally. No. yeah um And so it's not just about recycling. No, not at all. Yeah. Yeah, we've got to get we've got to further up the the waste. Yeah, exactly. you know We've got to avoid the waste in the first place. And you know there's some fantastic examples out there. Yumi's of the world, the Too Good to Go, where there's platforms to stop perfectly good edible food waste going into going to landfill.
00:23:13
Speaker
And all the um the the food rescue groups. Yeah. you know Foodbank, OzHarvest, SecondBite, I'm sure i've missed a couple, but you it's really important that we continue to get edible food to those, especially in this cost of living crisis as well, where people are doing it hard, that they that yeah know we can get you know good food to people and and help them out.
00:23:32
Speaker
i I wanted to change tack a little bit because I am also, you know, passionate about leadership, leadership traits, and I think leadership in this space is so critical. You're a ceo you lead a huge organisation. Like what what do you think that leaders, whoever whoever they may be, can do ah to sort of whether it's raise knowledge or or really move this, and move move things along? Yeah.
00:24:02
Speaker
Well, it's all about leadership. I mean, I've worked big corporate kind of contexts as well. And when the CEO um is focused on a step change in sustainability, it happens. And when the CEO is not focused on that, it's very, very hard to push against that or to get it onto the agenda. yeah um And so I think leaders at all levels can engage with these are two you two of the great challenges of our generation that um the decarbonisation kind of climate, addressing the climate crisis and then building ah to a safe circular economy. And a lot of them, ah those two issues often can be resolved collectively as well.
00:24:46
Speaker
um But thinking about... um how your business or your context can contribute and and just taking a bit of effort to learn about what the impact maybe currently is of whatever your activity is, it will make visible um real opportunities that usually will create um enhancements in profit or value as well.
The Role of Measuring in Emission Reduction
00:25:09
Speaker
um It's one of the stark things that we've seen when you start measuring greenhouse gases, they tend to fall by about 8%. So just because when you're not aware of something, you put no focus on it. And often there are real costs of what you're doing that you can avoid as well. So um similarly with, you know, food waste and this whole FOGO conversation that councils, if they if they um are able to do it cleverly. They can save money and get great new resources for their parks and gardens um and save money for their ratepayers as well as get some huge environmental benefits. So circularity isn't always that easy and it's finding that sweet spot. But that's, I think, leaders that in any context can can make a contribution to that. And it's so critical.
00:25:57
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. Circularity, people think, yeah some people think circularity and sustainability is a bit woolly and a bit fluffy, but it actually can materially impact your bottom line as a business and and and as a household as well. If you're if you're not wasting stuff, yeah you know you're wasting food that you've paid good money for. That's right. It's a waste of money. yeah I mean, like 30% of what we buy and put in the fridge we throw out. yeah So there's real opportunity to... make money or save money yeah and make a difference to the the future of the environment. And, you know, people say we our generation is the last one, ah this's the first one that will be meaningfully impacted by the climate crisis and the last one who can really do something about avoiding the sort of escalation of it. And so I think for all of us to take that into our workplace is a very powerful um construct. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
00:26:47
Speaker
Well, they say if you if you're not failing, you're not trying. What circular idea looked good in theory but fell apart in practice?
Effectiveness of Product Stewardship
00:26:56
Speaker
um So for me, I think we've seen a lot of really well-intentioned voluntary product stewardship schemes and efforts and, you know, often leading businesses get together and set something up that's quite inspirational. But I think, you know, i mentioned before this sort of tragedy of the commons issue that, you know, if if you don't have to participate and it costs money to do so, yeah maybe there's a branding benefit of being part of the solution. But, you know, if you're not selling based on that, you're selling on cost, there's a lot of incentives to not be involved. So I think a lot of our voluntary stewardship efforts have really failed to achieve
00:27:36
Speaker
what was hoped. yeah um And that's part of what's driven you know our government and we've we've deliberately written it in a way for other states to pick up and replicate and a number of them are now progressing that. But this um product stewardship legislation that was enacted this year by the New South Wales Parliament. yeah Yeah, the batteries, I mean, you might want to explain to people who aren't familiar. I mean, we've been talking a lot about food waste, but ah another sort of real critical issue is is batteries and batteries that and the damage that batteries in general waste cause. And so it's batteries that's the sort of first Yes, first cab off the rank. of it so So about eight weeks ago, um the New South Wales Parliament passed something called the Product Lifecycle Responsibility Act. And it was um one of the few pieces of legislation in history that has been universally supported across not just the both sides of the kind of divide, but all the minor parties as well of every perspective.
00:28:33
Speaker
um And that allows the government to essentially put in place a mandatory stewardship or enhanced producer responsibility scheme for any product that has an environmental risk or human health risk. yeah And the first risk the New South Wales government and many of our colleagues in the in other states are focused on is the fire risk from batteries, particularly from scooters and e-bikes that are often um at the lower end of quality or might be modified by the owner and then have caused some really devastating impacts. Yeah. you know loss of life um and also destruction of very major infrastructure. So um we're working now with the industry on what that regulatory regime looks like and what the requirements will be. So we have a voluntary scheme for batteries. It's mainly about lead-acid batteries, but and we need to make that a universal scheme so that we don't have...
00:29:25
Speaker
ah importers or re resellers outside. yeah yeah Yeah, I mean I used to work in in a major ah waste and and water company and the amount of truck fires that we had every year because the lithium battery had gone in either the red or the yellow bin. I mean don't put batteries in the bin, everyone stop doing it. yeah ah But yeah you you've seen the MRF, the materials recovery facilities that that go up.
00:29:48
Speaker
They take a long time to plan, they take a long time to approve, they take a long time to commission. And then when they go up in smoke, you've just lost a huge amount of capacity, totally which then adds to the problem, doesn't it? so And the insurance issue for the sector, you know, is really critical as well. i mean, the industry estimate between 10,000 and 12,000 fires a year yeah are now occurring in trucks and obviously at facilities.
00:30:10
Speaker
And fire and rescue are seeing the same kind of pattern. They respond obviously to far less, but it's the number one growth area. I think the work the worst one were were in ah in a process engineered fuel plant we had, we actually got a grenade come through. yeah We had to call out the bomb squad in in in the car park. So, yeah, it's amazing what people do think and they can put in the bin.
00:30:31
Speaker
It is. Yeah. um I think we should shift our thinking to being a bit imaginative. Yeah, go for it. um You know, because we could dwell in all of the problems, ah the grenades in our, in our waste. um What's an idea that sounds insane now, but will be absolutely business as usual in 20 years time?
00:30:53
Speaker
Well, I hope one is some sort of biologically derived plastic that maybe disintegrates quite quickly when it's exposed to light or water. I'd love to see something grown from bacteria or algae or something yeah and that can return back to nature. I mean, this is the problem with plastic. It doesn't break up. It only breaks, doesn't break down, yeah breaks up into tiny pieces. Yeah. um So something like that I'd love to see. And, yeah you know, um I've seen some demonstrations of in a possible future where we don't own as many cars, if if it becomes sort of a very convenient service that you just order a car and and the automated car turns up to take you, what do they do with all the car parks? And I know there's some thinking around sort of turning them into urban agricultural yeah productive sites. um So, you know, i'd love to see
00:31:44
Speaker
I'd love to see that in 20 years, that we're all growing all kinds of food in what where we now park our cars. Yep, love it. Me too. That would be great. And some solar panels as as of the roofs. Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:56
Speaker
um What's the one thing that every individual should be doing that would make a huge difference to the move to the Zika economy?
Engaging in Climate Action at Home
00:32:05
Speaker
um that The simplest thing, if your council has it, is to to learn about food and garden organic um separation and how to keep everything out but the food and garden organic material and just participate in that. That's that's a pretty easy thing um for most people to do.
00:32:24
Speaker
And it's a very significant contribution. I mean, the other thing for all of us that's often a challenge, particularly you know when um prices are rising, as they have been, but focusing on quality over cost, I think um yeah one of the other elements of our circular economy program is a reuse and repair strategy. So I think there's yeah but But even today when you're buying a product, there's always this trade-off we do in our heads. But reminding yourself that the life cycle cost is much lower when you can pay for a higher quality product. so Yeah, you buy cheap, you buy twice. Yeah, absolutely. Three or four times. yeah um So back to that then. So where do you stand? Are you were a nude food or a compostable bag of food?
00:33:17
Speaker
No, I'm nude. Nude. Yeah, me too. Me too. Absolutely. I think you've got three nudes here. Yeah. i'd love i' love I'd love to, coming back to your point on the plastics, I'd love to find ah a compostable bag that really does break down quickly. would I. Without having a problem because they are. genuinely. Yeah, because they they are a bit of a a challenge in the yeah in the recovery process.
00:33:38
Speaker
Yeah, and we know, i mean, there's some things we probably can't avoid, like fruit stickers, but we have to support the kind of transition to properly compostable materials. Yeah.
00:33:50
Speaker
And, you know, that's all part of the plastic agenda as well.
Future of Biodegradable Plastics
00:33:55
Speaker
Yeah, I've seen some technology there where you've got the the laser now, the embossed laser the fruit. Yes.
00:34:02
Speaker
Yeah. Why not? Yeah, yeah. Why not? I mean, if we can put people on the moon, and then we can find ways to fix some of these. Maybe that'll be your thing that you think is crazy now but will be normal in 20 years' time. I can i could see that taking off. Yeah, me too. I would definitely buy a piece of fruit that had embossed um like laser on it than a fruit stick. Yeah, that stick up. 100%. Yeah.
00:34:25
Speaker
All right, I reckon it's time for our rapid fire round. Let's do it, rapid fire. You're ready for rapid fire round. Yep. All right. Most ridiculous packaging you've ever seen.
00:34:38
Speaker
It's got to be bananas wrapped in plastic. With it. A banana comes with a ready-made... Package. Agree. and And it's even worse when it's it's wrapped in plastic and then a cellophane tray yeah underneath. I'm like, what are you doing? Why? Why? Yeah, very frustrating.
00:34:57
Speaker
One thing you'd ban tomorrow. um I would say it's unsafe chemistry in packaging. mean, look, this is a complex thing to unpick, and I know this is rapid fire round, but Since World War II we've had this proliferation of convenient chemicals and a lot of them haven't really been well understood for what they do to either our bodies or the environment.
00:35:19
Speaker
And so I want to move to a ah safe list of chemistry that is demonstrably safe and we can all be confident of is um okay to expose ourselves to. Amen.
00:35:30
Speaker
think we'll know the answer to this one, but compost, burn or bury? Seriously? you think You think you know the answer to that? I mean... Look, obviously we need to compost, but that's I think that's right. There are there are certain wastes that we do we can only deal with, you know, through high-temperature incineration safely, like clinical waste and other things. And then um other things, for now at least, we need to we need to safely berry um And I'm sympathetic to the idea that landfill and waste to energy are both semi-medieval kind of approaches.
00:36:05
Speaker
And so one day i hope we don't need red mill. Yeah, 100%. We're not there yet. It's interesting. If you look at energy from waste, it's prolific around the world. yes There's lots of instances of it being right in the heart of a city with with the right controls. But it seems that we are a little bit um at the back of the bell curve in terms of adoption of technology and that they can transition to a circular economy rather than just being a fix to the more medieval type of burying. No, and that's right. And when look, I think what was medieval was probably the sort of 1970s and 80s municipal incinerators that people my age at least, yeah you two might be too young. or yeah
00:36:43
Speaker
are you talking about? It's guy. It's a guy. And those were really toxic, you know a lot of dioxins and terrible um emissions. And as you say, these modern facilities, very high temperature, a thousand degrees plus, and they're they are very well regulated where they operate across Europe and the UK. So we definitely need to consider that as part of our solution set.
00:37:09
Speaker
um I think we've we've covered, I mean, some great ground, but I always like to sort of check in.
Innovators in Reuse and Recycling
00:37:16
Speaker
Is there something that with you were burning, you know, you had a burning desire to talk about today and that we haven't talked about?
00:37:24
Speaker
No, just maybe a shout out to some of the great um leaders doing really innovative things in the sector. I mean, um we did some work with Charitable Reuse Australia on quantifying the value of the the reuse sector, which has now been picked up by other states too, and it's um really impactful in yeah know in terms of the policy landscape.
00:37:44
Speaker
um It's something like $400 million dollars a year that New South Wales communities um save by participating in that sector. And then yeah some of the innovators like Blocktex is a great company looking to properly recycle both the cellulosic material and the the petrochemical material in our clothing. I mean, Peach Meagel, who's... We're just talking about it. Revolve Recycle.
00:38:10
Speaker
Recycling, like this great secondhand bike refurbishment social enterprise, donated lots of bikes over to Ukraine but also to other well-deserving communities and that's just a ah brilliant start-up in this space. It is. And then, of course, all the partners in local government doing good things, too many to list, but they're all critical in this space.
00:38:32
Speaker
you The unsung hero segment. think we're going have to introduce it. You've just started a new segment already, Tony. Thank you very much for that. That was awesome. and And thank you for being so generous with your time.
00:38:42
Speaker
My pleasure. I'm open in in the conversation. it's It is a difficult one that we're facing. We've got an infrastructure gap. we We are one of the most wasteful nations in the world. And we've all got to do better individually.
00:38:55
Speaker
But it's great to see, you know, government, policymakers and industry now really working together to try and plug the gap and find more circular solutions to the waste that we generate. Thanks, Tony.
00:39:06
Speaker
No, thank you both. Thank you. All right, Justin, it's our favourite segment. Tailwinds and Trashfires. So what would you say? Let's start with the positive tailwinds. What is helping our sector at the moment?
00:39:25
Speaker
I think we've we've got to mention the the FOGO recycling bill and the draft circular economy infrastructure
FOGO Bill and Resource Recovery
00:39:31
Speaker
plan. it's It's a first step to something hopefully very positive.
00:39:36
Speaker
um It's good to have a plan. It's chapter one. ah I wonder how many chapters are in the book and when and when the book starts to get a bit more juicy. But certainly i think it's ah a real tailwind for infrastructure development around resource recovery, full stop.
00:39:51
Speaker
Yep, totally agree. And the FOGO um legislation as well actually mandating businesses as well as households to be source separating ah organic waste, their food waste and um ah eo and green waste. I think that's a huge step in the right direction.
00:40:09
Speaker
it's It's giving operators of of that sort of infrastructure the ability to have source separated material, yeah not the scrambled egg that is currently in many red bins Yeah, and I wonder how many people in the audience actually know how damaging food waste to landfill is. yeah you know So the the carbon footprint globally of food waste is 8% of global greenhouse gas emissions on a CO2 equivalent basis. It's massive.
00:40:35
Speaker
ah It's three times that of the airline industry. In Australia, it's 3% of our carbon footprint. So it's one of the big ticket items that we can all contribute to by keeping food waste out of the red bin and out of landfills, whether that's having home composters or having infrastructure that can that can recycle it and reuse it in a regenerative form.
00:40:57
Speaker
Yeah, couldn't agree more. Yeah, good stuff. and And what about the trash fires? once so you you You work in infrastructure a lot, Kate. You must see lots of trash fires around the place that you need to solve for.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yes. I mean, sadly, know, along with the tailwinds, I suppose, come the... um but things that slow slow everything down. And I mean, the number one ah issue is the the red tape and the approvals um for infrastructure, whether it's large or small. People love the idea of, you know, saving the environment until it's in their backyard. And um and so that that really has an impact. It takes years and years.
00:41:37
Speaker
we we We tracked for for a client, you know, the the average um for ah resource recovery infrastructure in New South Wales, the average time for getting a planning approval was around six years.
00:41:49
Speaker
I mean, it's enormous, right? And so ah that does make investors, whether they're industry investors or investors,
00:42:01
Speaker
ah institutional investors yeah pause for thought and go, well, is this the right industry or can I make my money somewhere else faster? And how much you think that is is NIMBYism, so that social licence to operate, and how much do you think it is kind of councils not being resourced up enough or not having the the experience or knowledge to deal with not just current ah technology but emerging technology and disruptive technology that isn't written in the rule books?
00:42:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's everything, right? Like, yes, there's NIMBYism. It's definitely councils just having to learn as they go. it's also that we have so many different layers of um legislation in this country, which we all learnt during COVID. Yeah. There's...
00:42:49
Speaker
And in this space in particular, there's local government ah legislation, there's state government legislation, there's federal government legislation. It's not the same people that you're having to deal with. And so just because you've got your approval over here doesn't mean that you're going to get the the approval on the other side. So I think that makes things complex as well. Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned COVID though. In a crisis, we were able to mobilize and make things happen pretty quickly. yeah We're now facing a crisis, right? Penny Sharp, the the minister. It's time to wrap it up.
00:43:22
Speaker
ah What did you think? What was your takeaway from today? Firstly, what what what a generous gentleman giving us that time and talking so openly. Really, really, really appreciated that. I really liked bringing it back to the acknowledgement of country and listening yeah and active listening and deep listening. I think that's important. there's there's always so many actors trying to get their points across that it kind of destroys collaboration rather than trying to understand, listening to understand, to find that common thread, that pathway that can can get us to a more circular outcome rather than let's just get my point across and and who can who can you argue the best. Say it the loudest. Yeah, or shout the loudest and get their way, which isn't always the best way. yep Yeah, I also i was struck by um that, ah yeah, the the link back to the traditional custodians and how, you know, learning from how they've done it for millennia. So, yeah, ah that was good. Yes.
00:44:25
Speaker
I think the it's good just to be talking that there is there is a gap and there's a plan. and it was I was really pleased to hear that there were more chapters coming and they they're well fought thought through. so Obviously, chapter two one, thought, well, all right, how many chapters are in this book? and It's good to hear that there were a few more chapters coming in the and they're well thought through.
00:44:44
Speaker
and Great to see that they're prioritized, more harmful things that are going into landfill. They shouldn't be going in there. so Food waste and green waste being one of those ah waste streams that we can all take individual accountability for to do better. It's still interesting to see you know how is that circular economy infrastructure going to get prioritized over just extending the landfill yeah and and expediting energy from waste. I suppose that was a concern yeah in the plan, not through not in what Tony was saying, but yeah I still can't see that clear pathway as to how that
00:45:20
Speaker
gets expedited, especially with new technologies, disruptive technologies, where then they they're looked through the old lens and old frameworks that are designed for current infrastructure that isn't going to get us to the future. yeah So it'd be really, I'm going to watch with baited breath how that plays out in the future.
00:45:38
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i was I was glad because the thing that was lacking for me on my read of the draft process the draft chapter um was really just little mention around the the the design process. And so, know, it was good to hear him talk about that and sort of acknowledge that, whether that's going to come out more in the plan. I'm not i'm not sure I heard that, but there's certainly recognition. yeah of the need to talk about it. yeah I really liked um that he there were two particular call-outs, you know, because it's always nice to just boil it down to, okay, you're talking about, at ah you know, a company level um or a state level, but what can I as an individual actually do? yeah And I think, um you know, he made the point really...
00:46:28
Speaker
well, that separating food waste and and separating it from landfill makes a huge difference. And that if everybody did that, that alone would have a huge impact.
00:46:41
Speaker
um And so I think that was a really good message. um And I thought it was also, um you know, his his his reflections on leadership and the role that, you know, a CEO, a CEO who takes sustainability seriously and leads from the top on it, there there will be but There will be action and if they don't, there will be none. i thought that was a really well made point as well. I mean, the leadership shadows cast fire and wide, doesn't it?
00:47:08
Speaker
So leading from the front is absolutely critical to get change happening in businesses, but also in councils and in government. So yeah, I think a really good point and great to hear about.
00:47:19
Speaker
batteries not going in bins. I think we've got a public service announcement not to put batteries in the bin. Don't put your batteries in bins. Don't put food. Yeah, yeah yeah know it can jeopardize infrastructure, right? Which we we we're already highlighting that there's an infrastructure gap. yeah We can all play our role to dispose of waste properly and try and find secure outcomes, but certainly don't dispose of it. in an improper manner. So tipping or illegal tipping or putting things in the wrong bin that can create infrastructure problems in the future. So lots lots to think about. We'll see you on another podcast. I think we yeah we can't give up yet is the message I got from that. Absolutely. absolutely Thanks, Kate. Thank you very much.