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00:00:01
Closing the Loop: A Tale of Two Resources
105 Plays24 days ago
Guests: Jonathan Maybury & Stephanie Clark (SUEZ ANZ)
In this episode, Kate Dryden and Justin Frank sit down with SUEZ leaders Jonathan Maybury (waste) and Stephanie Clark (water) for a straight-talking look at why Australia still thinks in straight lines, and how to bend systems into a circular shape. From Singapore’s NEWater to WA’s aquifer recharge and the politics of social licence, they unpack what’s working, what isn’t, and why economics is the real bottleneck. Expect pragmatic takes on energy-from-waste, purified recycled water, and the planning links we keep missing between data centres, water, and waste.
- “Aspiration can be the enemy of progress-start with the better option now.”
- “Be curious, not judgmental” about energy-from-waste.
- “Yes! In my backyard”
Resources Mentioned:
- Singapore NEWater & desalination models
- WA groundwater replenishment (PRW to aquifers)
- Biogas-to-grid pilots and industrial recycled water use
- IKEA furniture buy-back; City of Sydney social housing recycling uplift
Hosts: Kate Dryden (Sphere Infrastructure) & Justin Frank (Goterra)
Recommended
Transcript
The Limits of Linear Thinking in Sustainability
00:00:00
Speaker
think We think in linear systems because we don't have an appreciation for the constraints. We don't have an appreciation for the fact that we have only got so much resource on this earth that we can use and once we use it, if we think about everything as linear, then it's done. And I don't think that we've really challenged ourselves as a
Introducing the Loopholes Podcast and Key Guests
00:00:22
Speaker
society. Welcome to Loopholes, a podcast investigating breakdowns and breakthroughs in circular systems and infrastructure. We'll dig into what's broken, what's working, and how we can close the loop for good.
00:00:36
Speaker
I'm one of your hosts, Justin Frank, circular economy and supply chain expert, and I'm delighted to introduce my co-host, the best strategic and infrastructure advisor in the business, Kate Dryden from Sphere Infrastructure.
00:00:50
Speaker
Well, here we are again, Justin, back for another tilt at the podcast. Before we get started, I'd like to ah acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land that we're recording on today.
Respecting Traditional Custodians in Sustainability Efforts
00:01:02
Speaker
We wish to pay our respects to their elders past, present and emerging, acknowledging that infrastructure plays a key part in keeping the soils, air and waterways clear and clean. Here we are again.
00:01:15
Speaker
have you been? It's been a while. On your Hollybox, you've been to Singapore, is that right? I have. like Yes, I am that dork who on holidays is thinking about infrastructure instead of just, you know, shopping and cocktails and food, which I did plenty of as well. I mean, the things that yeah we're grappling with in Australia, it's not as if it's unique, which is why it's so good to take lessons from other countries.
Singapore's Innovative Resource Management
00:01:40
Speaker
I mean, Singapore, when it comes to water, have embraced purified recycled water for yes There's the catchment as we as we do for most of our water sources in in Australia, but but there's also desalinated water, which we have in Australia, but also what they call new water, um which is in essence wastewater, purified recycled water.
00:02:04
Speaker
So wastewater being treated to a high standard that's then put back into the tap for drinking. And so it's ah fabulous you know combination of of the different sources. Delicious, delicious water from the tap.
00:02:17
Speaker
You know, no ick a great, I guess, example of innovation at play. I hope we might be exploring some of that with our guests today. And yeah, and on the waste front, exactly right. I mean, there was ah an island sort of reserved as a landfill when Singapore was created, or even probably before the country of Singapore. I'm not sure what its history was. But they have also embraced energy from waste and, you know, and it's so it's ah another example as so much in Singapore, they are dealing with a very constrained land space and a growing population of how do you manage your resources and and your your water and and your waste and your energy and and and how do you manage it sustainably. So yeah, it's always good to to sort of see how others do it.
00:03:06
Speaker
And so today we have two guests, ah Jonathan Maybury and Stephanie Clark from Suez Australia and New Zealand.
Insights from Suez Australia on Resource Management
00:03:14
Speaker
Between them, Jonathan and Stephanie are shaping how Australia rethinks waste, water and what we call resources.
00:03:22
Speaker
Jonathan is market lead for waste at Suez where he's driving the rollout of energy from waste projects across the country. With a background in corporate strategy, M&A and equity markets, Jonathan has spent over a decade turning sustainability from a boardroom talking point into real infrastructure projects.
00:03:41
Speaker
He's not just looking at what we throw away, he's focused on how to turn it into value while keeping communities and the environment front of mind. Stephanie Clark heads up business development growth and innovation at Suez.
00:03:55
Speaker
To Stephanie, the circa economy isn't just a buzzword, it's the future of infrastructure. That means recovering energy from wastewater, sending effluent into opportunity and rethinking how we manage resources to serve both the people and the planet.
00:04:12
Speaker
As she puts it, innovation is about finding new ways to do things better, to provide better services to more people, to make sure our water is clean and our air is clean.
00:04:23
Speaker
And that's really what bringing sustainability to our infrastructure is all about. Together, Jonathan and Stephanie represent two sides of Suez's circular economy vision for both waste and water.
00:04:35
Speaker
Both critical, both evolving fast, and both requiring new partnerships to solve old problems. Jonathan Stephanie, welcome and thank you for joining us.
00:04:47
Speaker
Okay, we'll get straight into it. Both of you are working on different sides of the resource problem, waste and water. Where do you see the biggest gaps are in Australia in their approaches to circularity right now?
00:05:02
Speaker
I think before I touch on the infrastructure gap, I think we need to sort of consider the behavioural gap at play. Look, in spite of talking about the cost of living crisis, we're a very wasteful society.
00:05:17
Speaker
And not talking just about Australia. i think this is a global issue. And as a country, we probably want to be closer to the top of the class rather than the bottom of the class. And I think right now we're probably lagging a little bit, kind of middle to bottom.
00:05:31
Speaker
You see that on TV shows like The War on Waste. So when we see those shows and we see the things that our neighbours are doing and we think about the things that we're doing, we're not quite there yet.
00:05:43
Speaker
I think regulation and policy can provide a framework for improving circularity. There is a gap there. So we certainly need our leaders, both political, industry leaders, community leaders, to make brave decisions and take those brave decisions, to take risks, to drive change.
00:06:02
Speaker
But when we specifically look at the
Challenges in Australia's Circular Infrastructure
00:06:05
Speaker
infrastructure and circularity and waste, I think our infrastructure is really weighted towards the bottom end of the waste hierarchy.
00:06:13
Speaker
And the waste hierarchy is maybe something that's a little bit understood by ah society. Generally, people don't know what the waste hierarchy is until they sort of move into an industry that's associated with it.
00:06:25
Speaker
We have a lot of security of landfill capacity across Australia, and we have plenty of space for digging more holes. And unfortunately, that creates a degree of complacency and apathy.
00:06:37
Speaker
We don't really have trigger like in the water industry. And I know Stephanie will talk about this. There isn't really a droughts that comes along where we think, oh, we've got a real waste, there's nowhere for it to go.
00:06:50
Speaker
And we do have some really good initiatives, higher up the waste hierarchy, but there's limited resource recovery, mechanical recycling, chemical recycling infrastructure, and we've got that lack of domestic manufacturing for outlets.
00:07:03
Speaker
There are some good facilities and some really good stories and some super smart people doing wonderful things. But it's really nowhere on the scale that we need. And I think that's where the gap is. We just need to step up and do better. Yeah, you talked about the the landfills in the space. But the landfills are filling. and We've had Tony Chappell on episode one. We've had Gail on episode two. We've talked about composting with Roslyn. But the New South Wales infrastructure, so waste infrastructure and circular economy plan shows that there's a problem. The landfills are getting full.
00:07:35
Speaker
And when we look at water, Stephanie, the water infrastructure is ageing, right? So we're not quite as lucky as lucky as we are. We are a wasteful nation, 2.9 tonnes per capita.
00:07:47
Speaker
So, yeah, Stephanie, what are your views on that?
00:07:52
Speaker
So I absolutely think we're a wasteful nation and I think that I don't think it's just Australia so let's not think it's just us but I think as a Western society we're wasteful. I think we think in a linear, we're wasteful and we think in linear systems and we don't think in circular systems. Yeah.
00:08:11
Speaker
And I think we think in linear systems because we don't have an appreciation for the constraints. We don't have an appreciation for the fact that we have only got so much resource on this earth that we can use. And once we use it, if we think about everything as linear, then it's done. And I don't think that we've really challenged ourselves as a society to think, how do we um Where does it stop?
00:08:39
Speaker
What happens when we don't have that resource left? And I guess I do think in a water sense, it's become much more obvious to us and we've had a crisis.
Water Management Innovations in Australia
00:08:49
Speaker
So we had the millennial drought, the millennium drought around 2000. You know, in places like Perth and Western Australia, and all Perth people know this, it changed.
00:09:00
Speaker
It wasn't a drought. It was a change, a permanent change to water conditions. Yeah. And And Western Australia and south of Western Australia just doesn't get the same rainfall that it used to.
00:09:11
Speaker
So we've Western Australia particularly has had to really rethink how they manage water as a resource and where do they get it from if they can't get it from, you know, the surface water sources that they used to.
00:09:25
Speaker
the rest of Australia, we started thinking about desalination and we started thinking about, well, maybe we can get water out of the ocean. Yeah. But even that has its limits and we don't talk about landfill in water, but we do discharge a lot of you know, treated water to our rivers and creeks and it goes back to the ocean. ah And that's a linear way of thinking. So even then we have to start thinking with water in a circular fashion.
00:09:54
Speaker
Water is something where it's probably easier for people to conceive, not just because of the droughts, but water, you can see it evaporate. You can see yourself extract water out of a kettle or whatever, steam out of a kettle.
00:10:08
Speaker
So you can see how water works. But I do think then if you can start conceiving of water as a circular resource, then we should be able to conceive as other things, whether that be the nitrogen and the phosphorus or our plastics and our, you know, and our other rubbish and our other waste. We've got to be really imaginative now and start thinking, you know, we've only got one earth, so we've got to get up. Yeah.
00:10:33
Speaker
Yeah. And Kate, we were talking about Singapore. So you've just been on your holidays to Singapore and another great example of both waste and water infrastructure and challenges that they're trying to overcome. So, you know, the landfill is getting full there and moving to energy from waste, but the use of new water, as it's called. So, you what are the links there, Kate, that you saw?
00:10:56
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's really what Stephanie is saying, like the thinking creatively about how you can use different or get water from different sources. And I think that new water or purified recycled water is probably the last but best example of a circular economy in water, I mean, in my opinion. And I'm keen to hear what are your thoughts on PRW, or whatever you want to call it is, and it's used cased in Australia?
00:11:29
Speaker
Oh, I'm glad you asked. I think that we absolutely need to think about reusing water. So 70% of what of the earth is covered is covered by water, by seawater.
00:11:46
Speaker
Of that, only less than, think it's 0.05% of the water is actually available for us for drinking. And water is circular in itself. You know, it goes up, it rains, it comes back down again, but it doesn't necessarily go where we need it to.
00:12:02
Speaker
So water in itself is absolutely a product that we recycle. In desalination, we extract clean water from sea. And that's something that we talk about a lot at sewers in terms of we're really extracting clean water out of the sea rather than sort of taking out salts and putting it back. We're extracting and mining clean water out of the sea.
00:12:27
Speaker
And there's no reason that we can't do that with wastewater as well. the technology is there, we can extract that wastewater, that clean water out of our wastewater. They're doing it in the US. They're doing it, as you say, with new water in Singapore.
00:12:44
Speaker
And if we are going to be using our resources wisely and having enough water for our populations and our growing cities, we absolutely have to start extracting that clean water yeah out of our wastewater and drinking that.
00:12:58
Speaker
But there's good there's good examples here as well, though, isn't there? Like the Kuragan Island Water Treatment Scheme. Yes. So you're just taking wastewater, purifying it to really high standards, and then um and an industrial offtaker uses it instead of potable water and and, you know, significantly improves their life cycle and the life expectancy of their their machines. because it's got lower mineral content. So there's examples of it on an industrial use scale, but again, that cultural change to to to move to drinking water will have to get there at some point. It's just a matter of when, isn't it?
00:13:33
Speaker
So again, Western Australia is actually leading the way in Australia. and they So sewers ah worked on the plant over there, the Benyip plant, which recycles water for drinking and discharges it into the aquifers.
00:13:48
Speaker
And then it takes a number of years of of um being sort of being within the aquifers. i think it's somewhere between 20 and 100 years.
00:14:00
Speaker
But then they extract that drinking water, that water from the aquifers for drinking at a later stage. So that's a great way to recycle the water, store it back in the ground and pull it out where it cleans even further and pull it out for drinking at a later stage. So yeah, we've got those industrial examples, lots of recycled water examples.
00:14:24
Speaker
Recycling water for drinking is, i guess, the ultimate. If you can use it for drinking, you can use it for anything. So it's the ultimate. It's actually the most economic of all of the ways to recycle water because it's got the greatest number of uses.
00:14:40
Speaker
Great.
00:14:43
Speaker
And as we think of just on that point of industrial water use, there's a lot of talk about data centres in Australia right now, which of course are ah needed as we really use AI in, seems like, of almost every facet of our life.
00:15:02
Speaker
But of course, they're massively energy intensive, but also, and I don't know that many people are aware of this, hugely water intensive. What's some ways that we can...
Integrating Technology with Water Management
00:15:13
Speaker
you know use the circular economy to support the data centre economy.
00:15:19
Speaker
Well, I think there's a little bit here about land use planning and thinking, well, where are you going to put those data centres so that they actually can get, so we can get that recycled water to them?
00:15:33
Speaker
If you can co-locate data centres onto, you know, next to or with water treatment plants, wastewater treatment plants that recycle their water, you then that's an excellent use of space.
00:15:47
Speaker
I actually, John and I actually recently were on a landfill site that was recycling water and recycling waste and it had small data centres on the site that were using that water and the energy being produced on the landfill site to power these data centres. And I said to them, it was really cool. I said, what do you do on this side? And they said, oh, we mine bitcoins.
00:16:18
Speaker
but ah so And they really do. yeah That is a good use of space. Yeah, that's a good circular economy story. It's a bit more innovative as well because, I mean, when we talk about energy from waste co-location, we've talked about heavy industrial uses of steam,
00:16:35
Speaker
and thinking of old industrial processes. And when you think of a data centre and you think of Bitcoin mining, it's something on a whole new level. And I think that kind of creative thinking is certainly what we need to be exploring in both border and waste.
00:16:50
Speaker
We've heard there that the sort of blockers to a circular economy might be a bit around policy land use planning. I mean, it's not, I don't think it's innovation, an innovation mindset, you know, given the example that you've just given. But what, I mean, what else do you think is standing in the way? Like, why why haven't we progressed the circular economy in this country more?
Economics and Public Awareness of Circular Economy
00:17:16
Speaker
Well, I think that the economics of the circular economy are really, really hard. And so if you ask the question, what is it? Is it technology? Is it behaviours? Or is it policy?
00:17:31
Speaker
My answer is it's economics. um And I think that means that it's policy. You know, I think that it's really around ah governments supporting good circular economy outcomes. And we've seen that that's been the case in Europe and the UK.
00:17:50
Speaker
Every single wastewater treatment plant that I have been on has biogas production and feeds... feeds biogas, you know, natural gas, naturally created gas from biological processes into the local gas grid to provide energy and to heat local homes.
00:18:12
Speaker
And that started because of government subsidies. But, you know, but that's a good thing. You know, we're In so doing, they're avoiding the use of, that's a renewable source, it's avoiding the use of an unrenewable source.
00:18:28
Speaker
So that is a, you know, that's a positive thing. And it's created a market for the technologies and it's created a know-how. And I guess we, John and I from Suez, think that we should be able to bring that know-how to Australia.
00:18:43
Speaker
But there's still barriers. Yeah. here And those barriers might be regulatory, but also to a large degree, it's a the the the markets just aren't there. The gate fees aren't there yet. the The offtakes aren't there.
00:19:00
Speaker
The co-location of, you know, to chew the con to the example that we just had, the co-location of infrastructure isn't there. You know, heat... is one of the offtakes that in Europe sustains these projects. so You can give heat to local industrial users and that is from an economic perspective,
00:19:21
Speaker
that can help a project get over the hurdle of financial viability. So I really do think we've got to think how do we get those linkages more closely together?
00:19:34
Speaker
How do we improve the prices of the inputs and the offtakes so that we can encourage people to do what I think is the right thing?
00:19:46
Speaker
I think there's a bit of mindset in there, isn't there? Whether you're a consumer or whether you're a politician or whether you're an industry leader, we all have a mindset. And I think that there are countries that do things well. We talked about Singapore, Scandinavian countries are renowned for approaching environmental issues very well.
00:20:05
Speaker
I suppose as a country, well we think of ourselves as the lucky country. and And a lot of people are relatively well off. There are people who are not so well off. And there is a cost of living crisis I mentioned earlier. But a lot of us buy too much. We consume too much. We buy too much food. It ends up in the bin. We like to buy new shiny things. And when we no longer need those new shiny things, some of us, we don't hesitate to put them out on the nature strip to be picked up by somebody else. And you see it with illegal dumping as well. People just throw stuff out and they don't explore whether that is valuable to others. And I suppose the circular economy is based on seeing value
00:20:44
Speaker
in resources for other people. And once you sort of don't see that value anymore, that's when it ends and it becomes linear. but I mean, I do think we're doing some good things. There are obviously some very longstanding circular initiatives, things that come out of the US, for example, like eBay and Gumtree, they're popular. There are charity shops, clothes swap events, repair workshops. And I think we're all probably involved in a lot of circular economy forums and networking groups and discussions and podcasts like this.
00:21:15
Speaker
But there is a lot that just goes underneath the radar, goes under the radar, and people don't really notice what's in. And I suppose the more we talk about it and and the better we communicate about the circular economy and with those leaders, again, I'll go back to the leaders. The leaders need to be need to be talking about it. The more chance we've got of these things taking off.
00:21:34
Speaker
One thing we talked about yesterday, Steph, wasn't it, about IKEA? Yeah, of course. And we had a bit of a laugh about it. I mean, IKEA, I always associate IKEA with sort of fast furniture and throwing things out.
00:21:48
Speaker
And they're making a big drive at the moment to improve their circularity. And they're making lots of investments in renewable energy. They're looking at their supply chains and the materials they use.
00:21:58
Speaker
um And I kind of thought about IKEA. It's a bit like McDonald's kind of getting into health food. But IKEA is doing some really great things. I know you've done some of that, haven't you, Steph? So I was saying, John was talking about this yesterday and I said, oh yeah, no, I did that.
00:22:13
Speaker
So I was renting an apartment and i was there for a year. I bought some furniture from Ikea to furnish my apartment. And a year later when I moved out, I sold it back to Ikea. It was fully assembled.
00:22:26
Speaker
I sold it back. I got a credit. Yes, I had to spend that credit at Ikea. But they put it on their market floor and they resold it. you know So I just think that's fantastic.
00:22:39
Speaker
I have also bought stuff from their market floor. So they've got a really good recycling program as well for if you just want to take your boxes back and your packaging, they'll take your batteries, you know, all sorts of stuff. So, yeah, I think Ikea's.
00:22:55
Speaker
brilliant they might get a nod in the unsung hero where section so there you go yeah yeah yeah i've given them yeah big wrap now the podcast might get a sponsorship or you might get a sponsorship that's right i do not work for them i promise some of those yummy meatballs and dime bars So you're in a fortunate position working for sewers. There's not many companies out there. You've got the viologies of the world as well that work across both waste and water and energy.
00:23:29
Speaker
What can the waste sector learn from the water sector and what can the water sector learn from the waste sector? What can they borrow or steal from each other and and how is that evolving?
00:23:40
Speaker
Look, I was just listening to Steph talk about extracting resources from water. We commonly, I think the messaging around water is much better. We commonly talk about water conservation.
00:23:52
Speaker
We talk about water being a precious resource and how we have to look after it. And I think it's probably the opposite with waste, right? Because people don't think of waste as being something precious. You don't hear people saying, oh, I've really got to look after my waste.
00:24:06
Speaker
It's really important that I look after it. Otherwise it'll it'll get damaged. people People think of it as being the opposite. And and when you see it, when When you see the ocean, you if you go down to Bondi for a swim, you look out at the ocean, you think, wow, I want to jump in there.
00:24:20
Speaker
You don't get the same feeling when you sort of go to the tip and look at the waste there and think, I want to i want to dive into that. so So I think that sort of thinking of of oh water being a resource is actually helpful because we can get some of that messaging across and it needs to come from all levels of government.
00:24:38
Speaker
And this is one of the issues as well, because government regulation and control of waste is a bit fragmented between federal state and and local councils but if we can get some of that messaging across that that waste is a resource and is actually quite complex the way that we need to process it in the future as opposed to to just putting your stuff in the yellow bin and people just put anything they like in the yellow bin and they think that's their recycling done and dusted
Public Perception and Industry Comparison
00:25:10
Speaker
So, like, I don't disagree. I just wonder what it is, you know, as you said, people think of water as more precious, you know.
00:25:22
Speaker
But what is that? Because that's not to pick up on Stephanie's point earlier about really pricing. Like, I don't think that... like maybe we pay a little bit more for our water than our waste, but not much. Like I don't think we're really paying all that much for our water, certainly what it really costs to treat. And arguably, you know, it's householders that the same could be said of waste.
00:25:46
Speaker
So other that is there is it economic or is there the education piece? Like what's the mindset? Or is it just that water is a clear resource and waste is not sustainable?
00:25:59
Speaker
viewed despite much of our efforts to change the nomenclature and not call it, you know, a waste, call it a resource, it's viewed as a waste. yeah So I think that you're right. um Water is a much more marketable product than waste, which does help.
00:26:16
Speaker
I think that one difference, one really stark difference I see when I go to waste conferences and I go to water conferences, the real stark difference I see is in how the industry is organised.
00:26:31
Speaker
And I think that there's been a huge effort. You know, the water industry is mostly big government public owned corporations.
00:26:42
Speaker
You know, your Sydney waters, your water corporations, your water, et cetera. They are very well organised. The water sector as a result, I think, is very well organised from planning through to capital delivery through to operations.
00:26:58
Speaker
I think as an industry, they coordinate a lot and they really do fund their industry bodies that look at research and development, that bring the industry together, that share those planning challenges.
00:27:15
Speaker
And I think that's a really big strength for the water industry that's done them well. But I think the other really major value of the water industry is that it is over the years it's really honed its reputation, it's built its reputation, it's put a lot of investment into its reputation.
00:27:34
Speaker
The water companies often come out as, you know, some of the strongest brands in Australia and ah don't think that the waste industry has ever...
00:27:45
Speaker
ever even sort of aspired to be that. And maybe it's the Suez and Veolia's of the world who have in the waste industry and some of their other counterparts, but I don't think they've really tried to build their reputation and that public trust in the same way that the water industry has.
00:28:05
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's interesting. I mean, and i think that that has changed over the last years. 10 years, I reckon, and there's been ah a good amount of work by the waste industry to really, I guess, raise awareness and probably, yeah, like it definitely is professionalised.
00:28:30
Speaker
But, yeah, that's an interesting one. i mean, maybe that has something to do with the difference between government
00:28:40
Speaker
related agencies in the water sector. You know, the water companies are largely state-owned corporations or councils, whereas the waste industry is at least the yeah a lot of them in terms of collections and processing is private sector and some local councils. So maybe there's something in that.
00:29:04
Speaker
I'm not sure what though. but so There's a bit of a range in the waste industry, isn't there, really? I mean, at the bottom end of the industry, there have been in the past some really shonky things going on. Think about illegal landfills and transportation of waste across state borders.
00:29:21
Speaker
I suppose you don't get that kind of same activity going on in the water industry. And when you put them side by side, you say, well, the water industry has developed in a different way. It is a little bit more, I would say, sophisticated.
00:29:37
Speaker
And the waste industry has always been kind of not as sophisticated, but it needs to head in that direction in order for us to be able to improve circularity and pull some of those resources out.
00:29:50
Speaker
Controversial. You'll be popular at the next Waste Forum, won't you, Jonathan? Jonathan, you've always been working on energy from waste since we worked together at Suez, but yeah where what's happening there, what's controversial? It's one of Australia's most talked about waste processing technologies.
00:30:11
Speaker
Where are we getting it right and where are we getting it wrong?
00:30:15
Speaker
Look, I think we are getting it right. I think it's probably a bit more complicated than we thought it would be developing energy from waste in a new market that is so far away from the rest of the world. And there are supply chain challenges when we're looking at constructing the facilities and bringing the equipment over to Australia.
00:30:35
Speaker
The regulators, I would say, look, I know the regulators get a tough time, but I think they are getting it right. Look, they're basing the regulation on European standards. and They're wanting a little bit more, but it's better to aim higher than lower.
00:30:47
Speaker
We're getting it right where we've got international companies involved in projects over here. Suez is one of them. We've got a number of competitors of ours as well who are bringing their experience to Australia.
00:30:59
Speaker
If we can build confidence in this sector, then we can certainly be successful. Probably what we're still a little bit challenged with is the whole messaging of bringing people on a journey with us.
00:31:14
Speaker
I think every project we're seeing, there is the a certain amount of of people objecting to people object to things that they perhaps don't understand too well.
00:31:28
Speaker
So we certainly need to explain the technology, why we're doing it, and the environmental benefits. And look, I think we will get there. We're certainly seeing, one of the things that we're certainly seeing at the moment is a lot more council engagement, local government level.
00:31:44
Speaker
When I go back 10 years and the first conversations that I was having around energy from waste with councils, their first question would always be, is it cheaper than landfill? And if you said no, then they were like, well, why are you here? Go away. um They're starting to think about, well, there might landfill levies might increase in the future and they can actually protect themselves against that levy increase if they divert their waste from landfill.
00:32:09
Speaker
But not only that, they're actually thinking about landfill diversion and how they achieve something higher up the waste hierarchy that is better. So I think local government are beginning to make some good And look, and again, they need to surround themselves with people who can give them good advice, who can lend that expertise to them.
00:32:28
Speaker
And I think they're beginning to do that. So look, I'm positive, but we still need to keep talking to the community about it and explaining the environmental benefit, because I think that's still a little bit misunderstood.
00:32:39
Speaker
Yeah, social license, isn't it? Social license is massive and it's actually, you know, in European tenders, it's actually, is that the same in water, Stephanie, the social license around infrastructure scaling in water or less so because people need it so much?
00:32:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's absolutely the same in water and where I took the effort that water utilities have put into their reputation and their brand, I think that's why because they have absolutely built social licence systems.
00:33:12
Speaker
They know how important that is. And, you know, I think they have convinced largely the population that there is a link between livability and good water management. And so there's still a way to go. There's still a need to build more trust to be able to more recycling and to pursue new water purified recycled water. We still need to leverage that trust effectively ah to get the community, I guess, to be feeling comfortable with that.
00:33:45
Speaker
And so I think there's some similarities there. What I was going to say is that I also think that there's, we need the leadership and we need a really pragmatic leadership as well.
Leadership and Policy in Circular Economy
00:33:57
Speaker
And I think that when you, I'm thinking more about waste now, but when you think about the waste hierarchy, ah And we've been talking about mining landfills and we talk about waste of energy. They're quite low down on the waste hierarchy. Yeah, they are, yeah And, you know, the aspiration is to recycle or to reuse. And absolutely that should be the aspiration because it's the lowest energy input.
00:34:22
Speaker
So we should be doing that. But we also have to acknowledge that things like waste to energy, things like mining landfill and even purified recycled water are much better than what we're doing today.
00:34:35
Speaker
So we have to start our circular journey and we need a pragmatic leadership to help move the community there. I sometimes think that the...
00:34:46
Speaker
People who are opposed to energy from waste are still environmentally focused. They just want pure recycling. And until technology is a long way off being able to recycle everything.
00:34:59
Speaker
So I think we need some pragmatic leadership to help that message and help bring the community along that journey. Some sort of real messages. yeah i mean, I was going to ask you similar question.
00:35:12
Speaker
question, which is, you know, whether it's councils, you know, state governments or private sector players, like what's the conversations that are not happening? And maybe it's picking up that pragmatic leadership point, maybe it's some other things.
00:35:30
Speaker
But is it, when you say pragmatic leadership, is it, i do you mean that there is a reticence to like Or there's a desire to seek perfect and a reticence to just, you know, look, it's not ideal, but it's better than nothing. Like, is that what you mean by pragmatic leadership?
00:35:51
Speaker
yeah Part one and part two, yeah, what else is there? What's the conversation? That's exactly what I mean by pragmatic leadership to say, it better than we're doing today?
00:36:04
Speaker
And what are our alternatives and how far away are they? So if we want to recycle all our plastics, then how long do we have to wait before we can actually do that, before we've got the technology to do that, before we've got the systems to even collect all of those and bring them together and get them to the right place so you can recycle, make sure you've got the offtakes?
00:36:28
Speaker
These are very complicated systems. They take a long time for technologies and industries and markets to get there. So I think the pragmatic leadership is leading our society through the roadmap of change.
00:36:42
Speaker
So how is that, you know, in the water industry we call that adaptive planning. But, you know, what is that roadmap of change? So what can we do now that is it's good and better than we're doing already, starts to see some of that, some good use of the resource, getting that added circularity into our mindsets, and then we can improve. And over time, technologies will improve and lots of things will move on.
00:37:08
Speaker
But we can't wait round until that happens. Absolutely. um Changing gears, if you could wave a magic wand and fix one thing tomorrow, whether that would be policy, tech, public perception, what would it be?
00:37:26
Speaker
I think we need a price on, you know, we need a proper price on, Call it a price on carbon or a price on circularity, but we need to understand the costs to in order to move along, we actually need to make sure we understand the costs.
00:37:45
Speaker
So if I could wave a magic wand, I'd be starting to say, how do we put in place a price for getting these things moving? When you're thinking about that price, it's not just the cost of of doing it, but are you talking about the the downstream costs of natural disasters and insurance and all that? you know what What are you thinking about when you think about that price? Yeah, well, I think that's...
00:38:07
Speaker
I think that's absolutely coming into fruition and we can, I'm sure there's actuaries working on it now. So in terms of understanding the long-term impacts on our communities and our societies, those prices need to be built in.
00:38:23
Speaker
ah I'd hope that it's a simple mechanism though so that we can actually use it on a daily basis. Again, aspiration is the enemy of progress. So yeah let's just get a price.
00:38:35
Speaker
Jonathan, what would you what would you wave your magic wand I think some, I mean, we we talk in, everybody in the waste industry talks about the landfill levy and look, it it does get a bit tired talking about the landfill levy all the time, but you almost want to have something more positive, which would be some sort of circular circularity incentive. and And I know i know there are a lot of grants that go out to circular organisations But I think in order to encourage that mindset of circularity, want to we want to have more green investments. We want to have the government investing in more green things. and
00:39:16
Speaker
But I think it needs to be on a larger scale than what currently happens. I mean, there are a lot of small organizations that get grant funding, but maybe if we can somehow wave a magic wand and get all those organizations to work together,
00:39:32
Speaker
we could achieve greater, better outcomes. Good stuff. I'm both for those. Good one. So I think we've already, we were going to do a circular hero story, but I feel like we did that.
00:39:45
Speaker
It's Ikea. LAUGHTER
00:39:50
Speaker
But I suppose if you'd like another bite of the cherry, are there any individuals, companies or other organisations that you'd like to spotlight here or abroad as being real circular economy heroes?
00:40:05
Speaker
Jonathan? i Before I came back to Suez, I worked at the City of Sydney and look, I mean, I was very proud to have worked at a council for such a global city in Australia and had lots of wonderful colleagues.
00:40:20
Speaker
Now, one of them, Adam Antonelli, who was a social housing, or still is a social housing project manager. i did a lot of visits around social housing and something, I think it's around 7% of Sydney's population live in social housing.
00:40:36
Speaker
And lots of social housing properties did not have yellow. i mean, you can't believe this, but the the perception was that because people lived in social housing, they couldn't recycle.
00:40:48
Speaker
So Adam was an absolute legend. He went around, he talked to people and we got a swell of sentiment from people saying, yes, we want to have yellow bins.
00:41:00
Speaker
And we made sure that every property had access to, we talked to them about how we could make their recycling better, how we could reduce their contamination and people not being able to get into bin rooms, for example, because they were locked. I mean,
00:41:15
Speaker
We had some ridiculous situations, but Adam was adam was fantastic. And we had we did things like having barbecues, social housing properties and talking to people. And we met some wonderful people. and And that's what you generally find in both the water and waste industry. There are so many wonderful people that you can with and talk to.
00:41:34
Speaker
And if you just talk to each other and listen to people's stories and work together, then you can improve yeah you can improve people's lives. I mean, Yeah, that's a great example. Waste is a big challenge in social housing and making sure that we provide access for bulky pickups, which gets recycled into process engineered fuel.
00:41:53
Speaker
So bulky pickups and recycling through the yellow bin and even sometimes some of the green waste from gardening services to social housing properties, making sure that everybody has access to proper waste segregation circularity.
00:42:09
Speaker
Yeah, good ones. So is it time for rapid fire round? I reckon it's time for our rapid fire let' rapid fire. What's the biggest barrier to a truly circular economy?
00:42:22
Speaker
Commercial viability.
00:42:25
Speaker
Economics. Your prime minister for the day, what circular policy do you fast track first? Carbon pricing. A mandatory procurement policy to buy repaired and reused goods in government.
00:42:41
Speaker
If you could redesign one everyday product to make it waste-free, what would it be?
00:42:49
Speaker
Compostable food packaging. I know that we have that now except it's full of PFAS and we've got to do better. Yeah, good one. I like the idea that you have your shampoo and your shower gel bottle and you go to the supermarket and you refill it like you pull a pint at the pub.
Rapid Fire Insights and Policy Needs
00:43:05
Speaker
What's the low-hanging fruit in waste or water that we could fix right now with political will? Easy. Purified recycled water for drinking. I'm going to be controversial again, Justin. I'm going to invite the state and federal government to put money into energy from waste development and investment in the facilities. Right.
00:43:27
Speaker
I think that will happen. think it's going to have to happen with the lump that's getting full. And if you had a billboard in every single Australian capital city, what's the one message you'd put on it?
00:43:40
Speaker
And it's got to be about a circular economy, not an arsenal or whoever it is that you go for. but it it it's It's funny you say football, Kate, because mine's going to have a little football. i'm sure Justin will get this straight away. No.
00:43:54
Speaker
I'm going to go with energy from waste, be curious, not judgmental. um bit of bit head loss I love bit love bit of Ted Lasso. Can't wait for Series 4.
00:44:07
Speaker
And in the same vein, I'm going to go with yes in my backyard. Yes. I like that. Good. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. No more nimpies. Barbecue salt. Yes.
00:44:18
Speaker
Okay, well, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the on the podcast. I think it's great to have a podcast to talk about these kind of things, right? Because I think how we're going to make change is through conversation and through talking about the issues and changing the mindset. And that's really what drives change. So thank you for having us.
00:44:37
Speaker
Well, thank you. And thank you you for for giving us clean water and dealing with our poos and and also coming back into the waste industry. So thanks very much. Our pleasure. Alright, time to wrap it up
00:44:52
Speaker
First time we've had two guests that we've been talking to. So that was, it was interesting to get their insights and comparisons, I suppose, between learnings from the waste sector and learnings from the water sector.
00:45:06
Speaker
Yeah. What were some of your takeaways? Two essential industries. Yeah, absolutely. was interesting. I think the fact that there's a lot of collaboration across the water authorities is probably a bit easier because it's not private entities that are competing against each other. There's more of that joined up thinking.
00:45:21
Speaker
I think that enables better planning. You've got multiple minds from different aspects coming together yeah probably stimulate a bit more innovation into the planning, something that you have to get right. There's communities across the country that need water to drink, to irrigate, to whatever it is. So think there's probably some learnings there that could be had from federal and state government.
00:45:43
Speaker
but also involving the waste industry ah in that planning up front. And you're seeing more and more of that in terms of requests for feedback to policy decisions. but But getting the right players around the table to do that planning would be, think,
00:45:57
Speaker
I did like the yeah the in ah the the the innovation of mining and bitcoins and landfill and the co-location of infrastructure. I think that would be something that could be really useful to start getting, not just thinking in silos of waste planning, but when we're talking on broader infrastructure planning, we're seeing that with circular economy zones where you're looking at both water treatment plants, but also recycling centers or facilities.
00:46:25
Speaker
energy from waste plants or whatever it might be, and FOGO composting plants, so food and garden organic. But the fact that data centers need water as well in the end usage, it's starting to think about how you get that joined up approach to infrastructure. So you get the maximum usage of all the different constituent parts.
00:46:46
Speaker
Yeah, and I think, I mean, from my perspective, that's where government and regulation can help the most. Because, you know, if you've got those, there's the economic incentives, and which I think is the other part that I really took from um the conversation, which we should talk about next.
00:47:05
Speaker
But, if we can be getting some planning settings that is encouraging some of those co-locations and, you know, is sort of pointing to the fact that having a data centre out in the middle of nowhere or having it, ah controversially, having an energy from waste facility out in regions might not be the best solution long-term strategy considering what the inputs and the outputs are, you know, the water and the energy that's needed for a data centre, the waste inputs and the outputs that are needed from an energy from waste plan, like really thinking about what those, you know, the related elements are because, yeah um and that really does require government inputs.
00:47:51
Speaker
Yeah, it requires systems thinking, though. you know It requires a much broader mindset than than just one particular sector. So, yeah, I'd love to see a kind of way where we're involving different sectors that are needing to address different challenges for for the nation coming together and then looking at the the right nodes in the supply chain or geographies that make it work because you do really have to think about the tyranny of distance in Australia and the demographic spread of such a huge geography.
00:48:22
Speaker
The other thing that I really took from what Jonathan and um Stephanie had to say was really the importance of the right economic settings. I mean, that came through loud and clear and it wasn't just around, you know, as Jonathan said, the the land levies yeah and sort of the penalties.
00:48:46
Speaker
It's also about the incentives, the rebates. I think Stephanie, you know, talked about the the settings in Europe and how bioenergy was really created through incentivising the use of gas for heating.
00:49:01
Speaker
um I mean, I am freezing in my house right now, but that isn't usually the setting in Australia, which is why that, you know, we've had to think differently about that.
00:49:13
Speaker
But there are some great examples of biogas from wastewater plants now being used. Sydney Water has um a trial with, I think, Gemina to be putting gas from a wastewater system back into the grid. So, you know, there is these innovative ideas that are taken from places in New York. Those yeah do things being done.
00:49:35
Speaker
Yeah, but they are, to Stephanie's point, being done in the absence of those economic incentives or or penalties for not doing it. So they're being done despite, um and I think that the point that came through ah really well was we need more of those levers for infrastructure to come about, and I wholeheartedly agree with that.
00:50:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, uh, the social license came through again. it's the thing that we've had across, uh, some of the different episodes. ah Interesting, you know, the views on, the brand and reputation
Addressing Water Trust Issues and Circular Economy Heroes
00:50:13
Speaker
and the investment in that from the water industry versus, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Fully agree with that. I think, quite a lot of the waste players do invest a lot of money into the brand and reputation, but you then do get some players that might not be as big or as professional that can bring the whole industry under, under different disrepute.
00:50:30
Speaker
Um, yeah on yeah Yeah, interesting i agree. Yeah, no, definitely. think that, you know, the point of that, you know, some of the water players, I mean, Sydney Water certainly was rated as one of the most trusted brands. But I think, you know, Stephanie mentioned PFAS at the end. We didn't talk about that too much, but that certainly um has been causing a hit to the the trusted nature of water companies.
00:51:01
Speaker
I agree with you. i think that a lot of work has been put by um that the way into trust and reputation. I thought there were a few comments that the guests made about the professionalism or otherwise of the two industries. I mean, I think yeah i think both have been doing a quite phenomenal job of really upskilling and recognising that there is this need for You know, people who really understand infrastructure development and and can put, you know, those pieces together. So, yeah, I certainly think that both industries um have had great learnings from each other and have really upskilled over time and over the years.
00:51:48
Speaker
Yeah, of course. And I think the Unsung Heroes section or the the circular heroes that we've spoken about today, yeah, good call out for IKEA there on the reuse on the buyback scheme. That's a a nice one I was certainly unaware of, so good on IKEA and also the social housing. So Adam, good on your shows again.
00:52:05
Speaker
and some cultural differences or ah assumptions you should never assume it makes an ass out of you. emit so you know it's It's terrible really that though those those cultural archetypes are even thought about. so yeah I reckon um that there would be people at the other very other end of the spectrum who would be the most terrible you know consumers and non-recyclers and non-reusers Alrighty, well, we've got more to come. We've got digital infrastructure that helps to avoid moving up the waste hierarchy. So avoidance being the the key. So more policy coming as well. So in terms of getting policy to get infrastructure in address market failures and yeah looking forward to all the new guests coming onto the podcast and being here again.