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00:00:01
The FOGO Gap : Part 2 Inside the Industry
126 Plays15 days ago
In this episode of Loopholes, co-hosts Justin Frank and Kate Dryden speak with Roslyn Florie-George, Executive General Manager of Strategic Growth and Infrastructure at SoilCo. Soilco specialises in organics recycling and compost production. Soilco works at the intersection of waste management, soil health, and regenerative agriculture by transforming organic waste, such as food scraps, green waste, and biosolids, into high-quality compost and soil improvement products.
The conversation explores the real-world challenges of building a circular economy and the critical role infrastructure plays in managing organic waste.
Key Topics Covered
- The realities of composting at scale, including contamination issues and infrastructure investment
- Why compostable packaging is failing despite its good intentions
- The green bin as a foundational but undervalued link in the circular system
- The urgent need for harmonised landfill levies and planning regulations across states
- The potential future of landfill mining
Check out this informative video of how SOILCO's process works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwsSHO7qvs0
Recommended
Transcript
The Invisible Waste Industry
00:00:00
Speaker
I think it would become very quickly apparent to people the scale of the problem that we're dealing with. So unless you run a landfill or a transfer station and you work intimately in this industry, you put your material in the bin and it disappears every week. and It's out of sight, out of mind.
00:00:20
Speaker
Even these large garbage trucks driving past you every day, you don't see them. It's just this back end industry that doesn't get the credit or the limelight that it deserves because we are an essential industry.
Introducing 'Loopholes' Podcast
00:00:33
Speaker
So if that all disappears, then people will genuinely start to realise how much we're generating and how problematic it is and how quickly could potentially impact our health and our environment.
00:00:48
Speaker
We're bringing this podcast to you on Gadigal land. Infrastructure plays a key part in keeping our soils, air and waterways clean and clear. We want to pay our respect to elders past, present and emerging.
00:01:05
Speaker
For the longest time, our waste has just gone away and we never had to think about it again. Today, there's no away left. Countries around the world are facing the challenge of replacing their aging infrastructure without interrupting critical services.
00:01:23
Speaker
Welcome to Loopholes, a podcast investigating breakdowns and breakthroughs in circular systems and infrastructure. We'll dig into what's broken, what's working, and how we can close the loop for good.
Discussing Policy and Infrastructure Gaps
00:01:37
Speaker
I'm one of your hosts, Justin Frank, circular economy and supply chain expert, and I'm delighted to introduce my co-host, the best strategic and infrastructure advisor in the business, Kate Dryden from Sphere Infrastructure. Okay. So, Kate, we have had episode one with Tony Chappell, the CEO of the EPA, talking about policy and regulation. Episode two, we had Gail Sloan from WAMO, over the Waste Management Department.
00:02:02
Speaker
Resource Recovery Association of Australia, talking about the broader waste landscape, infrastructure gaps, andneath the need legislation, eco design. but We've now got Roslyn from Soilco, Roslyn Flory George. So really getting into ah bird's eye view from one of the waste service providers, focusing on FOGO, because that's one of the biggest changes in the policy from episode one, that Food has got
Soilco's Role in Reducing Emissions
00:02:30
Speaker
to come out of landfill. It's one of the most harmful waste streams to landfill. 8% of global greenhouse gas emissions, three times that of the airline industry, 3% of greenhouse gas emissions in Australia because we use so much Russell's fuel. It's one of the big ones that we've got to get out of landfill. Soil Co is a great service provider that is doing exactly that for both food waste and garden waste. Yes, oh, I'm glad you just defined FOGO. Food organics and garden organics. My brother, shout out to Matt, told me that we used way too many acronyms in our episodes. So I'm trying to become alert to that. So yes, FOGO, food organics, garden organics. Gordon organics.
00:03:08
Speaker
Gordon organics. Who's Gordon?
00:03:12
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, Soilco is doing some great things. Sort of where this is a nice little link, we spoke a lot with Gail about markets, you know, that sort of end to end and that the you can't have, you're just not going to get infrastructure up if you haven't solved um both what you're doing the at the front end with the materials, but also having a market for what you're producing at the back end.
00:03:35
Speaker
And what is, and I hope we'll sort of hear a bit from Roslyn, is how Soilco is going about really tackling both parts of that, I was going to say,
00:03:48
Speaker
chain, but yes, equation, because they are not just processing Fogo, because sometimes it's go, sometimes it's Fogo, but it's also really investing in the markets for the product at the end of it and making sure that, and it's not just one product, it's multiple products. And so they've really been, you know, tailoring what they're doing with the products at the end. And I think that's quite a nice link to what we heard from Gail. Yeah. and it's circularity it's taking the food and the garden organics it's putting them through a process it's creating high value outputs there's an off-take market for it and then it's going back to grow produce to rehabilitate uh forestry or insights or whatever it is it's a useful circular story so it's it's great to dig into it interesting to see you know gail talked about in episode two pfas yeah uh you know
00:04:43
Speaker
this is a problem in green organics, garden organics and food organics, the packaging, again, the lack of legislation that Gail was talking about in terms of, you know, being able to label how much PFAS is in there, whether it's safe or not.
00:04:58
Speaker
But we've got a real problem that we've got to solve for in the organic infrastructure or the organic sector because it leaches into the
Circular Economy and Organics Recycling
00:05:06
Speaker
products. So hopefully we're taking some of the theory, into the reality, like the the everyday life for organisations like Soilco and many others.
00:05:16
Speaker
yeah Yeah, mean, it's just one example. There's many, many of players in there, but... ah A great female to highlight. Absolutely, 100%. All right, let's get into it. For those of our listeners who aren't as familiar with what SoilCo does, could you give us like a, just a brief overview of the, like of the key activity? I mean, a one only needs to go to Soilco's LinkedIn page to know that you are, as you said, doing so much at the moment and there's so much growth happening and lots of mergers. But at the core, just a quick overview of what the sort of the core activities of Soilco is.
00:05:54
Speaker
Yes, certainly. So we are a, as I said, family founded but large scale organics recycling company. The way I describe it people that I meet is a Firstly, we bond over the fact that they do or don't have a green bin at home. So if you're fortunate enough to have a green bin, then the conversation goes, hey, do you put garden organics or food and garden organics in that bin?
00:06:16
Speaker
And then once we've got to that point, I go, okay, so my job is then to take that material, put it through processing facility, um which is quite a complicated process. We decontaminate that material. We shred that material. we then compost it using a range of different technologies, depending on the site. So anything from quite simple open windrow composting in more regional communities where there's more space to be able to process that material, all the way through to fully enclosed tunnel facilities which operate under negative pressure.
00:06:48
Speaker
So we compost that material. We then take the product once it has been pasteurised and composted and we screen it and get different fractions or different sizes of products and we can then sell that product as a compost or a mulch or we can take it one step further and blend it with other materials to create really specific soil blends so things for top dressing ovals, veggie mixes for the home garden, native mixes that perhaps have less nitrogen than some other mixes so
00:07:21
Speaker
In essence, we take what is organic waste that once would have been destined for landfill. We then compost that material using biological processes and we create beautiful products that people can apply to their gardens and in green spaces around their communities.
00:07:38
Speaker
Which is such a great example of circularity action. Absolutely, yes. I mean, it's been, you know, nature's been circular since forever. So all we're trying to do is optimize that natural process and make sure that we're removing organics from landfill, which are incredibly damaging in an aerobic anaerobic landfill environment because they're generating methane and creating other issues for our environment.
00:08:04
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So it's a very circular business model leading really in the organics. But we take a broader systems approach, what do you think the system needs to do to move from being linear to more circular?
00:08:21
Speaker
I mean, I guess there's a
Challenges in Waste Separation and Management
00:08:23
Speaker
number of things. We're already doing a lot of good work in this space and have been for decades, but I think the next step change in the organic space is to capture as much food organics as we possibly can and potentially mixing that with our green waste or collecting separately depending on the environment.
00:08:41
Speaker
But yes, essentially getting more food waste out of our red bin. We know that up to 50% of our red bin can be compostable. It's usually food scraps or food waste that can no longer be eaten. So firstly, we need to capture the material and through soil separation. We need to make sure we're doing that with as little contamination as possible.
00:09:01
Speaker
But then that material needs to find a home. So we process something like 300,000 tonnes per annum, but we know that there are hundreds of thousands of tonnes coming down the pipe because of um mandates and other regulations which are pushing councils and businesses in the right direction.
00:09:18
Speaker
But to process that material, particularly within so close proximity to population centres, we do need to build heavy industrial facilities that last a long time.
00:09:30
Speaker
but have to be very robust and it's incredibly expensive to do so. So we need investment. We need support in the planning space because it's a very long and arduous process to get a waste facility approved.
00:09:44
Speaker
So I'd say the infrastructure, capital, planning, And then finally, we need to make sure we've got end markets for this product once we've manufactured it. So we need to be really conscious about the quality of the product that we're producing and actively looking for new markets as well wherever we can.
00:10:03
Speaker
Yes, that's great. So you've mentioned the mandates, so the FOGO recycling bill that was passed in February of this year, which is great. Take it that yourself and Solco are pro the mandates that have been put in place and the pathways that are being talked about in Chapter 1.
00:10:18
Speaker
what are your views around the pathways and the expedited pathways for landfill extensions and energy from waste versus more circular infrastructure being expedited?
00:10:30
Speaker
I think we have to tackle both fronts, unfortunately. I'd love to be able to sit here and say we can solve all of our waste challenges by being more circular, but I think the reality is we need both.
00:10:44
Speaker
We need to set the economic drivers appropriately so that resource recovery and the circular economy can compete with the likes of landfill and potentially energy from waste in the future.
00:10:57
Speaker
So we should be doing everything that we can to so implement the waste hierarchy, which obviously puts recycling above um landfill and energy recovery.
00:11:08
Speaker
But I think we also have to be realistic that there will always be a residual waste stream of some form. Even out of an organics facility, we have people who put the wrong things in the wrong bin and then we have to remove that and by the time we've received it and removed it unless it's potentially metal there's very little we can do with that residual waste stream so that does need to find a home somewhere else safely that yeah I guess in my opinion we have to tackle both I'd love to see recycling prioritised over landfill but we can't be without a residual waste disposal option
00:11:44
Speaker
What's the craziest piece of contamination that you've come across?
Public Education and Recycling Economics
00:11:51
Speaker
It's probably not the craziest, but the last one I saw when I was looking at a picking line at our Kembla Grange facility was somebody's Christmas fairy lights had been wrapped around all these branches in the tree and obviously someone had come along and pruned the branches and hadn't bothered to remove the electrical wire and the and the light bulbs and everything attached to it. So yes, perhaps not the craziest but... but The laziest perhaps. The laziest perhaps and a little bit disappointing. um You know, every shift we'll find secateurs, secaururs we find
00:12:23
Speaker
um we find green textiles. i don't know if people think it's a green bin, they can put green stuff in it no matter what it's made ah of. Yeah, really strange green items. And then things that just really shouldn't be there like batteries, chunks of engines, you know, it's anything and everything I think it's fair to say we have found in our green bins, you know, medical waste, things that just just shouldn't be there.
00:12:50
Speaker
Yeah. What, like on that note, Orbe, leading from it? Like what's the something that you wish people knew about the challenge of working in the circular economy sector?
00:13:04
Speaker
yeah The thing I wish people knew about the circular economy that yes pretty much everything is recyclable but at a cost and not every tonne of waste is created equal and i think people feel that just because it's got a recycling sign on it that it should be recycled. But unless that material is generated at scale and can be source separated, aggregated, collected and then processed and then there's an end market for that material, unless we tick all of those boxes, even though something can technically be recycled doesn't mean that it does, that it is or it should be.
00:13:52
Speaker
A simple understanding of the economics of our industry I think is really important for the general public because we should be focusing on the biggest and the heaviest low-hanging fruit because there are materials that we can recycle that are 100 times less the cost than the next material potentially that people are focusing on.
00:14:14
Speaker
I think, unfortunately, sometimes we focus on the wrong streams and we don't have the time and the resources to do that. So that is in part why I'm in the organic space. We know that we generate a huge amount of organic waste.
00:14:27
Speaker
We also know how to process it and we have end markets for it and we can do that economically. So, yeah, a challenging message to give to people who aren't familiar with the industry but I think it's really important to understand that.
00:14:41
Speaker
Yeah I think they're great insights Rosalyn but how much you think of that as cultural? You know if you look at countries around the world there's some countries that manage to get very high reuse and recycling rates.
00:14:53
Speaker
You know we're one of the most wasteful nations in the world I believe with about 2.9 tons of of waste per capita, which is yeah right out there in terms of one of the most wasteful nations. What do we need to do culturally to change that and start to think a bit more? You talk about batteries, car batteries or engines in there, you know, simple messaging like if you can't eat it, don't put it in the bin.
00:15:17
Speaker
What do we need to differently, you think? It's a good question. i mean, I think education does play a really important role and Some councils do education really well and they invest a huge amount of time and resources and they do see the benefits.
00:15:32
Speaker
But every council is different and their resources are different. So I do think there's an education piece to play. But when we're comparing ourselves to, say, some of our, some European nations or even some Asian nations, we have to be conscious that We're a much more spread out population, so the cost of collecting waste is a little bit different.
00:15:53
Speaker
And we are also very fortunate or unfortunate, depending on how you look at it, to have a lot of holes in the ground that are readily available for landfilling or have been at least historically. So it has been cheap and easy to bury waste in Australia, whereas in some of our European countries,
00:16:15
Speaker
there have been no voids to fill or there's simply no space in the likes of Japan and those countries yes have educated well and there's perhaps some cultural differences there but they've also their hands have been forced in some respects because they've had they haven't had that cheap alternative that we have had for so many decades and thankfully in Australia landfilling is getting more expensive and be it via landfill levies or just because of the cost of doing business and being able manage a compliant large-scale landfill, which is making it possible for the resource recovery to compete with landfilling.
00:16:54
Speaker
But, yeah, I think it's not a simple question to answer, I would not say, Justin. I've got some fabulous insights there, Rosalyn, and, you know, maybe we need a new section of the soapbox section because landfill levies are definitely my...
00:17:09
Speaker
My hotspot, you know, the lack of harmonisation around landfill levees around the country drives me to distraction. yeah the the The use of the funds, you know, predominantly going into consolidated general revenues ah rather than being reused as a real economic instrument to drive circular outcomes and circular infrastructure, but also the the line marketing messages.
00:17:32
Speaker
know, campaigns like Don't Be a Tosser, you know, they're quite effective. um And I think they need to be reused. And it's good to see, you know, the Victorian government starting to increase their levies and trying to align with New South Wales. But I think we need to see that landfill rate go up around the country so that we can start to really drive circular outcomes.
00:17:54
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you work with lots of, as you said, different councils and then across lots of different states. I don't know how many of our listeners, many would be familiar with that real distinction and difference between all of the different arms of government.
00:18:11
Speaker
Many wouldn't be. What, from your perspective, would be a good way to, or a preferred way of dealing with that whole raft of differences that currently occurs in this country?
00:18:28
Speaker
I think the word is harmonisation.
00:18:31
Speaker
There's certainly a regulatory piece that needs to happen and there needs to be a a national position taken on landfill levees and I don't think we can change them overnight but they are certainly heading in the right nice to see that there's no longer it's no longer zero in Queensland for example and we know that that resulted in hundreds of thousands of tons um crossing the border into Queensland from New South Wales so I'm I'm glad to see that there's movement in the right direction, but you're right, there's still some way to go towards harmonising the landfill levees.
00:19:06
Speaker
I think that would play a huge role. think the other challenge that operators have, especially when they're operating in different states, is the different compliance requirements on licences and the like.
00:19:18
Speaker
Even things as simple as percentage of contaminants or amount of PFAS potentially that can or can't be in end products is yeah vastly different between the states and that makes it really challenging to take a business model and grow it nationally.
00:19:36
Speaker
So the more we can do to harmonise the landfill levy and the regulatory space at a national level, more productive our industry will be and the more certainty that our industry will have and therefore we are more likely to be investing in the infrastructure that we need to to create a circular economy.
00:19:55
Speaker
I think it's really good point, a point well made, and yeah, couldn't agree more. Okay, switching switching gear a little bit. What circular idea looked really good in theory but fell apart in practice?
Issues with Compostable Packaging
00:20:11
Speaker
This is a great question, and I thought long and hard about it and then came to an obvious conclusion for the organic space given that's where I operate at the moment, compostable packaging.
00:20:24
Speaker
Fantastic. I was going to you about that, so glad you got it up. Yes. So fantastic in theory, right, because we know that plastic, metals, other packaging is ah is a really common contaminant in the feedstocks that we receive.
00:20:40
Speaker
And so if it was just compostable, surely that would solve that problem and would also reduce the amount of waste that we'd be sending to landfills. So it ticks a lot of boxes on paper.
00:20:52
Speaker
The challenge we've had... in the composting industry is that unfortunately the products have essentially come before the necessary regulation that we need and there are legitimate ah certified compostable packaging in the market that can be purchased.
00:21:10
Speaker
However, there is also a huge raft of different compostable packaging and compostable in inverted commas that might be biodegradable or use some other terms that are essentially just greenwashing.
00:21:24
Speaker
um that are really problematic in our end products. And by the time you, and and and they're usually all the same colour because they're all trying to claim the same green credentials.
00:21:35
Speaker
And by the time, and a lot of consumers don't understand the differences between the logos and the Australian certifications and Australian standards that are used to test those products.
00:21:46
Speaker
And so by the time it's received at one of our facilities and it's going across a picking line, it is near impossible to tell what is genuinely compostable and safe and what is not. Yeah.
00:21:57
Speaker
And... So to comply with the orders and exemptions in New South Wales and to be able to apply product to land and to just guarantee the quality of our product, we have to remove it all because we just can't distinguish between the two. So until but it's controlled at the front end and there's very, very clear regulation and enforcement in place so that people who are putting the wrong products into the market are held accountable, we just can't accept that material and compost it with our organic streams. So...
00:22:28
Speaker
I think that's probably the best example in the organic space where, yes, in theory, sounds great. In practice, we haven't been able to make it work yet. I'm hopeful that maybe we can in the future. But, yeah, it was a case of one step forward, two steps back, I think, unfortunately. Yeah, I think.
00:22:47
Speaker
And I think a lot of people just don't, they don't know that, you know. I mean, speaking to people about having more sustainable practices in a school canteen,
00:22:58
Speaker
Like, it's okay, we use the compostable coffee cups. And it's like that your point there is, you know, that's so well-intentioned. Absolutely. And it's coming from such a good place.
00:23:12
Speaker
But actually, it's not helping. And it's potentially costing that campaign, that canteen or that cafe, more money to purchase a product that ultimately still needs to be landfilled, unfortunately. Yeah.
00:23:26
Speaker
And the, yeah, we just can't apply that product to land yet because we don't have the certainty or the regulations that allow it. So, yes, it's an unfortunate circular economy story, I think. Best intentions, people want to do the right thing, but until every product on the shelf is genuinely compostable, we can't accept any of it.
00:23:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's fabulous insights there. I mean, really, really interesting for listeners to understand those his problems that waste um processes face. It sounds like we need a bit of extended producer responsibility coming in in that area and obviously the right eco design and the legislation and quality standards all to come together.
00:24:08
Speaker
Because like you say, best intentions, should be something that is doable. Seems to have, yeah, we've got the cart before the horse, maybe yeah in this case. you
00:24:20
Speaker
20 years hence is going to look like. yeah What's something that we would think now seems utterly insane but actually in 20 years will will be the norm?
Future of Landfill Resource Mining
00:24:33
Speaker
I don't think we will have any choice but to start mining our landfills because... We're throwing an incredible amount of valuable resources into holes in the ground.
00:24:46
Speaker
Granted, it might not be economic to recover them today, but at some point in the future, will be less expensive to mine that out of a landfill than it is to get the ores and the other resources mined in the traditional manner, would be my expectation. Yeah, that's really interesting. It it is. i saw a start that there's going to be more gold in landfill than there is in the gold reserves by a certain day. can't remember the exact date, but yeah, it's a really fascinating insight that, yeah, the amount of stuff that we are wasting
00:25:20
Speaker
is actually yeah going to be more efficient to dig it back up again, which is, I dread to think, how we actually manage the impact of the methane that gets released by uncapping and digging those things. But we're in an innovative species that can hopefully design ways to capture that and turn it into energy rather than letting it escape into the atmosphere.
00:25:41
Speaker
So if landfill was, for whatever reason, not available tomorrow, What happens? And I know you touched on it before, but that was when you had the easy way out of it still being an off option. That's right.
00:25:58
Speaker
Not an option. Not an option. I think there'd be a few dominoes that would fall. Unfortunately, I think initially we'd see fair bit of a illegal dumping. And if there's no landfills to take the material to and there's potentially no trucks collecting the waste,
00:26:16
Speaker
I think it would become very quickly apparent to people the scale of the problem that we're dealing with. So unless you run a landfill or a transfer station and you work intimately in this industry, you put your material in the bin and it disappears every week.
00:26:32
Speaker
And yeah it's out of sight, out of mind. Even these large garbage trucks driving past you every day, you don't see them. It's just this back-end industry that...
00:26:43
Speaker
doesn't get the credit or the limelight that it deserves because we are an essential industry. So if that all disappears, then people will genuinely start to realise how much we're generating and how problematic it is and how quickly could potentially impact our health and our environment.
00:27:04
Speaker
So think that would be the initial piece. And then I think what would flow from that is...
00:27:12
Speaker
we'd probably reconsider if energy from waste is required in Australia and potentially plays a role in our industry because in countries where there hasn't been the opportunity to landfill material at scale, then energy from waste is the obvious solution. So I think we'd have to reassess that technology, look at the social licence of that technology and work out how that fits.
00:27:34
Speaker
But I think more positively hope that if that happens, I don't hope that it happens, but I hope that if it happens, we'd have a really good, long, hard look at ourselves and critically assess our needs and our wants and just genuinely thinking about how unsustainable our consumption habits are and just reconsider the whole design of the system because it is so convenient for people to get rid of waste that I think it detracts from the fact that it's a real challenge for our country and that
00:28:10
Speaker
We should be working harder to improve what we're doing and becoming more circular ultimately. i reckon it's time for our rapid fire. Let's do it, rapid fire. All What is the most ridiculous packaging you have ever seen?
Addressing Unnecessary Plastic Use
00:28:27
Speaker
I hate it when we remove the natural packaging of fruit and vegetables and then replace it with plastic. So my pet peeve is seeing corn cobs stripped of their husk and then wrapped in plastic.
00:28:43
Speaker
It just blows my mind that that is a smart thing to do. You know, peeled bananas, all of that. There's, you know, most of our, most things can be, protect themselves pretty well.
00:28:54
Speaker
And so we don't need to just add more plastic for the sake of it and to be able to see yellow kernels potentially.
00:29:02
Speaker
Yeah. All right, other roll-on deodorant made of mixed packaging, one thing you'd ban tomorrow?
High-Impact Waste: Glitter and Fast Fashion
00:29:11
Speaker
I don't know how I would do it, but if I could ban fast fashion, I would.
00:29:15
Speaker
So that would be, it's just enormously problematic and I think if you could ban it and fix that issue, it would have so many flow-on effects that would be positive across the board.
00:29:28
Speaker
If I could ban that tomorrow, the second day I would ban glitter. And eating not just because I have kids in childcare and they come home covered in the stuff, but just find it completely absurd that we're manufacturing microplastics that cannot be recycled and basically from the moment you open that lid, it's essentially litter.
00:29:53
Speaker
And I just don't understand how that how that should be legal. Yeah.
00:29:59
Speaker
Yeah, I agree completely. It reminds me that Peppa Pig episode where the glitter's in the glitter safe. It just shouldn't be manufactured. It shouldn't be manufactured and we shouldn't be able to. Sorry. Yeah, compost, burn or bury.
00:30:13
Speaker
Oh, this is easy because I'd be fired if I said anything other than compost. ah So compost, absolutely. Yeah, we nature is circular. It always has been and we should be doing everything we can to to mimic that that system.
00:30:28
Speaker
Okay, great answers. Okay, the next session. So this section was
The Green Bin's Role in the Circular Economy
00:30:34
Speaker
devised from a question that kind came out and Tony Chappell from the EPA really nailed it. So it's called the Unsung Heroes shout out. So who, which individual company or organisation would you like to spotlight in circularity that are doing amazing things and are really an unsung hero?
00:30:56
Speaker
Can I choose something that isn't a company? Yes. Okay. There's no rule. ah Good. but So my unsung hero this industry is the humble green bin.
00:31:11
Speaker
And my reason for this is that it's ignored, people put contamination in it, they treat it appallingly for the most part, but it is such a critical part of the circular economy because without it,
00:31:26
Speaker
We can't collect and aggregate the organics that we need to be able to regenerate our soils and reduce methane in landfill. So without the green bin, the whole organics piece, which is a huge part of the circular economy, falls down and breaks down.
00:31:42
Speaker
was actually at the Australian Organics Annual Conference and... Kate McQuillian, who is the creator of Get Grubby TV and Dirt Girl World, for those who are familiar with those kids' programs. They're absolutely fantastic.
00:31:57
Speaker
She gave this beautiful presentation about FOGO, how it should be communicated and how we should structure our education messages and the like. And she, hope I'm not misquoting her, but she said that she wished that the green waste, taking the green waste bin out to the kerb um was seen as a celebration and it shouldn't be seen as a chore because it's such an important piece of the chain. And for me, her presentation was, you know, really thought-provoking and it really moved me and I i always loved seeing Kate speak.
00:32:34
Speaker
But, yes, my unsung hero is the green bin. I love it. A celebration taking out the compost. The other day watched in horror. I live in an area where we have the humble green bin and also, and a FOGO bin. So like we've got a separate food waste collection.
00:32:53
Speaker
And I went to a mate's house and I watched in horror as they scraped their food into the landfill bin. And so naturally I didn't hold back.
00:33:06
Speaker
And... else Yeah, watch out when Kate's on the wall bar. What are you doing? i ah there is so many false excuses that people use to, as a reason like why they're not, you know, they're doing, oh, it smells, oh, it's too hard. Like what's the one message that you would give to people to really, mean, yeah, like it is that celebration. Like how can we really...
00:33:39
Speaker
pass on that message of this should be a celebration it's actually not too hard or gross or insert whatever the excuse is.
00:33:50
Speaker
i just don't see how there could possibly be an excuse because you're not generating food waste because you have a green bin. You're just generating food waste because that's what you've been doing forever. And so you've got to put it in a bin regardless.
00:34:04
Speaker
Just put it in the right bin. Yeah. It's that one thing that we can all do as individuals to make a massive difference to the circular economy is just taking a bit of extra care and effort in our own houses to sort separate our waste from the right things. Do the right thing, yeah.
00:34:22
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. And I think, but we have been using that messaging for a long time, so we always need to be looking to push the boundaries and find other ways to educate people who perhaps aren't responding to those messages. And I think the other thing that I think we could all do, and again, I'm biased given I work in organics, is I don't think we should underestimate the impact of just growing things and just starting to grow things if you've never done it.
00:34:53
Speaker
If everything grew, if everyone something, it could just be basil on your windowsill. Yes. there's just this amazing flow-on effect where you almost immediately start to appreciate the time and the resources and the effort that goes into growing our food and making our communities green.
00:35:13
Speaker
And from that, you then start to understand that oh, there's a cycle here. You know, we need to replenish the soil. We can't just take, take, take from this basil plant and expect it to keep, you know, performing prolifically.
00:35:25
Speaker
Yeah, another unsung hero, which is very difficult to say with a lisp, is Grow It Local. We were both at COFTS. I think all three of us were at COFTS at different times, the Waste Conference, and seeing Grow It Local present and the fact that they have seasonal seeds that they send, even more difficult to say with lisp, seasonal seeds. Yeah.
00:35:43
Speaker
that's good Connecting that growth cycle and nutrient cycle to the waste cycle and composting is a really great idea. Okay, really wonderful wonderful to have all your insights, some amazing things. The green bin is an unsung hero. i think it's amazing. and And you can go one step further because of all the recycled plastic content that can actually be put into the humble curbside. It's another circular outcome. So a fabulous call out there.
00:36:12
Speaker
Thank you so much for giving us your time and insights to a very complex industry and some complex problems to unpack. So we really appreciate it, Rosalie.
00:36:22
Speaker
Oh, you're most welcome. Thank you for having me. I thought that was a really interesting conversation. i mean, Rosalind, she's a deep thinker, but she's got the practical kind of expertise in this space. So it's like a really nice, it's always, I just think you get so many gems speaking to people like that because it's like she understands all the theory, but she also understands the practicality as well. So she understands that people for some reason throw green things into the green bin because They're green.
00:36:51
Speaker
And so eie how do you address that? But then she also understands the economics behind it all, that you can make money and you do make money people you know, recycling food waste. And indeed, if they were sending it to landfill, they'd be losing money. So, you know, like that practicality, I just love hearing.
00:37:12
Speaker
And exacerbating the problem that's been articulated pretty well by the government that we've got a red bin crisis, right? And if we don't do better, we're going to have red bins not being able to be collected, which are a massive concern. So the profit and planet doesn't have to be a compromise. It can be something that works in tandem.
00:37:27
Speaker
I thought she really nailed explaining a very complex problem really clearly and easily around the compostable packaging piece. I mean, it's the cart before the horse, multiple different producers, some doing the right thing, some possibly greenwashing a bit.
00:37:44
Speaker
The difference between compostable and biodegradable and the fact that it all has to come out in the end because by the time it's covered in food waste, no one can tell the difference. Yeah. It has to come out because it's a contaminant in the final product.
00:37:56
Speaker
I thought she really brought that up and and hopefully listeners will understand why these changes from the New South Wales EPA and government and broader state governments are coming in.
00:38:07
Speaker
Yeah. And how just buying compostable packaging doesn't kind of absolve itself of responsibility, you know, like you're not sadly helping matters any. So if you're gonna pick a coffee cup Pick a reusable one, yeah not a disposable one, because actually whether it's made of compostable packaging or not, it's going to end up in the same place, which is landfill.
00:38:35
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. It really comes back to the purpose of loopholes. We talk about the beginning, we just put waste in the bin and it goes away and there's no away left. It's another really clear example of, as as a society, it's just something that we really take for granted. And I really hope we don't get to that position where it becomes a crisis that we're all having to deal with.
00:38:58
Speaker
So yeah, it's an interesting play. The Unsung Hero being an object rather than a person or a company, i think was inspired that um I mean, I think it should be a celebration. I've just got a really steep drive.
00:39:13
Speaker
and So if it's a very heavy or wet garden that's been pruned, it's... your muscles, stop you whinging. Yeah, as I'm backing up the drive, slowly groaning like an old man. It's a celebration when I get it up there because i managed to get it up the drive and onto the road.
00:39:33
Speaker
ah But a great insight, a really great insight. Yeah, no, I agree. And it was interesting, you know, just the call out of seeing these facilities in in action. i mean, a lot of people you need to see to believe, know, the composting facilities that Soil Co. operates, that she explained, are big, sophisticated, well-run facilities.
00:40:00
Speaker
machines you know like they're and when people have the opportunity to see it and I think we'll tag some videos in the show notes yeah they see it and just seeing actually like what is involved in this circular economy at a large scale it it probably helps put some of these theory to yeah to into practice and like and help people understand why it really does actually make a difference Yeah, I mean, it's it's that infrastructure piece that we're talking about. It's that those big pieces of infrastructure are absolutely necessary. But Roslyn, she captured it again really well that these things are heavy, heavy pieces of kit. We need them.
00:40:39
Speaker
But to get them in the urban perimeter is becoming more and more challenging because of social license. And obviously, I have a bias from my GoTera um responsibilities that We need to look at both centralised infrastructure like a big in-vessel composting facility, but also decentralised solutions that can be closer to where the waste is generated.
00:41:02
Speaker
So we're not having those inefficient transport miles and scope three emissions yeah spiking. There's no one silver bullet here that's going to solve It's going to be a complete value chain design to make sure we avoid the crisis that's looming.
00:41:19
Speaker
And even the energy from waste. It should be pragmatic that we're not going to be able to get rid of landfills quickly and that there is a pathway really where energy from waste in other countries has helped them transition away because they don't have the luxury of space and holes in the ground that need to be filled.
00:41:37
Speaker
But yeah, my preference for that is a selfish preference is that those energy from waste facilities are at primary energy hungry offtakers to offset fossil fuel usage. So there's at least a carbon benefit.
00:41:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that there's a place for, I agree with her, know, of course we want to reuse, recycle as much as possible, but for the residual, anything that is can be producing energy is a hum up benefit far greater than just burying it in the ground.
00:42:13
Speaker
I mean, I think it was interesting that what will we be doing in 50 years time that we think is strange today, but will be normal mining landfill. I mean, I think, are we going to be seeing a whole lot of people investing early early stage investors in landfill mining. I mean, I think she's got a real good point there because there is so much that has and still sadly does get buried in the ground in landfill that is really precious. and um Yeah, 100%. I have seen examples of tech already being designed or used in this scale. And I think it's overseas, there's already examples of larger scale landfill mining happening
00:42:55
Speaker
Yeah, a really a really interesting twist on what was a waste disposal being a source of resources in the future, but very interesting to see how the environmental impacts of that are being.
00:43:08
Speaker
Okay.
00:43:11
Speaker
Yeah, so another great guest on our podcast. I am really looking forward to the next conversation and as always, a pleasure talking with you, Justin.
00:43:23
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's been a joy. Lovely to follow on from more legislative approach from the EPA to have a hands-on approach from a player in the market. We've got lots more exciting and knowledgeable guests joining. They're not all going to be are focused on the waste sector but there'll be other areas coming so really looking forward to our next guest and opening up more insights on the loopholes of circular systems and infrastructure.