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E143: Gareth Williams
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Gareth Williams was intelligent beyond his years, which is why he was recruited by GCHQ to be an intelligence agent and use his skills with computers and code-breaking to serve his country. Once Gareth was sent to work for a different intelligence agency, however, the joy he previously found in his career began to wane. Then, just weeks before he was to return to his previous position, Gareth stopped showing up for work. When his body was found one week later, the mystery surrounding his death turned out to be nearly as enigmatic as the codes he tried to break.
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
We are excited to announce that this episode is being sponsored by Zencaster, our very own podcast recording platform. Make sure you listen for more information in the middle of the episode and take a look at our show notes to know exactly why we love Zencaster so much and how you yourself can get a discount.
Podcast Themes and Reviews
00:00:19
Speaker
Maggie and I cover some very dark material at times on the show, but a podcasting friend of ours consistently covers material that is the darkest of the dark. But for the purpose, like us, of bringing stories to the light in the hopes that there are answers to be found or lessons to be learned, she covers crimes against children.
00:00:48
Speaker
with her mission being that she can give voices back to the silenced and educate listeners on the lessons to be learned from their tragic cases. A recent review of her show had this to say about it, quote, a wonderful, sad, but necessary podcast. I've been a listener of this podcast since discovering it on YouTube a little over a year ago and appreciate all the work, care and dedication Lane puts into each episode.
00:01:15
Speaker
She researches everything she can about the poor children and ghastly situations they were put in and even does interviews with family members or friends mourning the loss of an innocent soul.
Introducing 'Suffer the Little Children'
00:01:25
Speaker
This is a podcast that we wish didn't exist due to the content within but one that needs to exist so the world can see just how many children had suffered and are suffering because of neglect and vicious abuse. So many stories start and end the same and it's worse when people who see something is wrong
00:01:45
Speaker
Say something to the proper authorities, CPS, and nothing is done until it's too late. Lane does amazing work and she deserves all the support." End quote. Here is our friend Lane telling you about her podcast, Suffer the Little Children.
00:02:01
Speaker
12-year-old Alex Hurley, 8-year-old Rika Rountree, 18-year-old Traiana Summerville, 1-year-old Serenity Sutley, 2-year-old Daunte Mullenix, 6-year-old Corey Mitchellau, 2-week-old Kalia McNabb. What do these kids have in common?
00:02:17
Speaker
They were fundamentally failed by the very people they trusted with their lives. Suffer the Little Children is the true crime podcast, giving voices back to the victims of child abuse, and shining a harsh spotlight on the parents, guardians, and caretakers who silence them. I'm your host, Lane. Each week, I take a deep dive into the story of an abused and murdered child, often conducting interviews with family members, prosecutors, or other major players in the cases I cover.
00:02:41
Speaker
Calling attention to these tragic stories is important not only to keep the children's memories alive, but also to educate the public about common and lesser-known signs of child abuse. These kids deserve to have their stories told and their voices heard.
Inspiration from 'Doogie Howser'
00:02:55
Speaker
Listen to Suffer the Little Children on your favorite podcast platform on YouTube or at sufferthelittlechildrenpod.com. When I was younger, I used to love the television show Doogie Howser, M.D.
00:03:09
Speaker
It chronicled the life of 16-year-old Doogie Howser, child genius, who earned a perfect score on his SAT at age six, did all of his high school courses in a total of nine weeks, and then graduated from Princeton all by the age of 10. He graduated from medical school at age 14. And when the show aired, he was about two years into his residency at Eastman Medical Center.
00:03:39
Speaker
all before he even had his driver's license. I remember being so impressed by how bright he was to have so many accomplishments and yet be so young. I myself was between the ages of 10 and 14 while the show was on the air, but I was also intrigued by the way in which Doogie Howser was torn nearly completely by two worlds.
00:04:06
Speaker
He was still young and enjoyed the things that young kids do, but he also wanted to be taken seriously by his medical peers at the hospital and had to be trusted by his patients. That must have been a difficult tightrope to walk, to hold on to both parts of your identity and not lose contact with either one.
Gareth Williams' Mysterious Case
00:04:28
Speaker
It's this navigation that I was thinking about while researching this week's case, because at the center of our case was someone who was, to put it in everyday terms, a spy. He was someone who had to navigate his life with friends and family, a carefree life where it was okay to relax and his work life.
00:04:51
Speaker
where he was constantly scrutinizing codes, intercepting messages of national importance, the place where relaxing or missing even the smallest detail could mean danger. Add to that dual existence the fact that this man, much like Doogie Howser, was a prodigy and was years younger than his peers. And we understand even more the navigation he had to make daily.
00:05:20
Speaker
between each element of his life. Even more perplexing than how he managed to navigate all of those roles in life is the riddle that was created in his death. This is the case of Gareth Williams.
00:06:12
Speaker
Welcome to Coffee and Cases where we like our coffee hot and our cases cold. My name is Allison Williams. And my name is Maggie Dameron.
00:06:21
Speaker
We will be telling stories each week in the hopes that someone out there with any information concerning the cases will take those tips to law enforcement. So justice and closure can be brought to these families. With each case, we encourage you to continue in the conversation on our Facebook page, Coffee and Cases podcast, because as we all know, conversation helps to keep the missing person in the public consciousness, helping keep their memories alive. So sit back, sip your coffee, and listen to what's brewing this week.
00:06:49
Speaker
Before I begin this week's case, I would like to issue a warning to our listeners that today's episode will discuss adult themes that may not be suitable for young listeners. So this week, Maggie, I am taking us across the pond to one of my favorite places.
00:07:14
Speaker
A place where I spent several months during my semester abroad in college. I'm taking us to England. Oh, this one sounds like it's going to be interesting. Oh, it is. Though the victim at the center of our case this week was actually born and raised in nearby Wales and Welsh was his native language, which I don't know if I've ever heard anyone speak Welsh.
00:07:40
Speaker
I know for 100% sure I have not. So if we have any listeners who are from that area of the world, and you do, I'd love to hear a message. Just record yourself saying it and email it to us because I think that would be fascinating. But Gareth grew up very close to his mother, Ellen, his father, Ian, and his sister, Carrie. In fact, his father bred in young Gareth, a love of competitive cycling.
00:08:08
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I know. See, Maggie and I, we don't exercise. I used to cycle, not competitively, when I was in shape. Anthony and I used to love doing that. And I tried to do it like a couple weeks ago and thought I was going to die. Luckily, the chain on the bicycle broke, so I got to go home. You had an excuse. Yeah. This was something that Gareth and his dad did together. They were both members of a local cycling club.
00:08:37
Speaker
And Gareth took it seriously. It was competitive cycling, after all. So I might cycle, but not competitive. Yeah, leisurely. Yes. But publicly, Gareth was actually quite shy. He wasn't the face in the room, which everyone was drawn to. His laugh was not the one heard over the din of the crowded party.
00:09:03
Speaker
Instead, Gareth was content being with just a couple of close friends, with bowing out early when the rest of his Cyclist Club members wanted to visit a pub after a race. I feel like he's a lot like you. Yeah, I'm a lot like Gareth in that way. I'm fine being at a crowded event and around a lot of people, but I don't thrive on it. I'd rather be with just a few close friends. Yeah, a tighter circle.
00:09:34
Speaker
Perhaps also difficult for Gareth was the age gap between himself and his coworkers. Yeah, I'm anxious to hear this because you said that he was like pretty much a genius. Yes. And it wasn't long after Gareth's birth on September 26th, 1978 that his family realized what a gifted mind Gareth had. So he was a mathematical genius.
00:10:01
Speaker
He was working on computers when his peers were playing with Legos. Well, I don't know if you guys have seen the latest TikTok I posted, but it's a math quiz and I got all of them correct.
00:10:18
Speaker
I would not have. Yeah. I had to tell my students to put themselves into groups. I'm like, I need five groups. Whatever that means for how big your groups are. Figure it out.
00:10:33
Speaker
But Gareth actually began attending Bangor University to study mathematics while still enrolled in his secondary school in Wales. And secondary school in Europe is basically a combination of middle and high school here in America because it serves students 6th through 12th grade. Wow, so impressive. So while he is in middle school and high school, he is attending the local college.
00:11:03
Speaker
you go. And his secondary maths teacher, which I always find it fascinating why in Europe they say maths instead of math. Yeah. Can someone explain that too? Yeah, but I'm going to use their language. So their word and secondary maths teacher said of Gareth that he was the best logician he had ever seen. So his logic was
00:11:30
Speaker
I mean, better than any student this teacher had ever had. So by the time Gareth was 17, he was already a college graduate. That's impressive. So he's kind of like Sheldon Cooper. Yeah.
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah, Gareth went on to get a PhD from the University of Manchester and was actually enrolled in a postgraduate course through St. Catharines College, Cambridge when he was approached with a job. GCHQ or the Government Communication Headquarters wanted
00:12:10
Speaker
Oh, fancy. So that secondary maths teacher noted of Gareth, quote, if you explained something once to Gareth, he remembered it. You didn't have to explain it again. It didn't surprise me at all that he was very interested in codes and ciphers. And it really didn't surprise me that he was recruited by GCHQ.
00:12:35
Speaker
he was definitely going to go into something like that with his brain," end quote. So it was almost like this job of breaking codes and deciphering communication.
Gareth's Work and Personal Life
00:12:50
Speaker
Because remember, that teacher noted how logical his brain was. See, Allison, I do think this is a lot like you. This is, you like logical things, like to break code stuff. Oh, I love puzzles. Yeah, yeah, totally.
00:13:05
Speaker
Even Gareth's boss at GCHQ noted his intellect, saying that he was a quote, world-class intelligence officer and quote, something of a prodigy. Wow. Gareth began working for GCHQ in 2001 and he loved his job. So while we don't know exactly what Gareth worked on,
00:13:30
Speaker
because you know. Obviously. Right. We know that Gareth's rise among the ranks at GCHQ coincided with his help in the discovery of the liquid bomb plot, which was when a group of radicals in Britain of Asian descent had been planning to detonate homemade explosives on seven different flights headed to major North American cities.
00:13:59
Speaker
Oh, wow. Yeah. So in that work, in discovering this plot, Gareth had actually made connections with US intelligence agencies, as well as foreign intelligence groups. Okay. And how old is he at this point? So he's like 23.
00:14:21
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. He had such a keen logical mind that this career path was the perfect one for him. And for nearly 10 years, Gareth happily worked for GCHQ while renting a small room in Pressbury Gloucestershire. Though work did seem to consume his life.
00:14:46
Speaker
And other than trips home to visit family, some climbing trips with his dad and the competitive cycling, he mostly just stayed in his apartment. Honestly, I feel like his job is very mentally draining. So he was probably tired by the time he got home. Well, and like to me, my job, if my job is that and I have to be so secretive, that's one of the things that a lot of people
00:15:12
Speaker
make connections with others built upon is what you do for a living. So teachers will commiserate with other teachers about how much grading we have or something like that. Or you'll say, oh, how was work today? And you can't have those conversations. Right, because you can't tell people what you're doing because you're a spy. So I feel like that makes it hard too.
00:15:35
Speaker
Even when he was at home, Maggie, that apartment where he stayed was not filled with the normal creature comforts.
00:15:46
Speaker
Gareth instead enjoyed a very austere lifestyle, I guess is the word I would use. An article published by The Guardian stated that the room that Gareth rented was furnished with one child-sized bed, a small chest of drawers, three chairs, and a gas heater. So just with the furnishings that the woman he was renting from had provided.
00:16:13
Speaker
So he slept in a child's size bed? Oh, isn't that sad? Yeah, it is. And from what I read, Gareth didn't add anything to this room. So no luxuries, no additional things. Gareth was the opposite of a hoarder. He was a minimalist, it seems, from everything that I read. But things were about to change for Gareth. In the spring of 2009,
00:16:42
Speaker
He was sent on a secondment to work for the Secret Intelligence Service, SIS, sometimes referred to as MI6. And a secondment, because I had to look it up, that might be a term that they use overseas. I've never heard it used here in America. But a secondment is when an employee of one company or organization is temporarily assigned to work for another company or organization.
00:17:11
Speaker
Oh, okay. So we have this in America. It's just not called that. Right. Yeah. So basically GCHQ loaned Gareth to SIS for a three year term. Now that term length is a bit long. Most secondment services from what I read are usually for two years or less.
00:17:36
Speaker
But I mean, it could have been the case that SIS maybe thought that whatever project Gareth would be working on would take a bit longer. And maybe that would explain the three-year term. Contracted. That's what we call it here. We contract it out. Right. Not secondment. Yeah. So with this prospect of networking with those in another security organization, Gareth packed up the few things that he did have. And he moved to a flat in Pimlico, London.
00:18:06
Speaker
OK, so do we see a shift when he starts working at SIS? Yes. OK. There are contradictory details in many parts of what I'm going to tell you, starting even with this apartment building where he stayed. There were contradictory details about the flat itself. About half of the sources in my research said that the flat where he stayed
00:18:35
Speaker
was part of the Secret Service safe house, meaning like all these spies and secret officials stayed there. And then the other half of the sources said that it was not a safe house, but it was because of its proximity to SIS headquarters, a place where a lot of those intelligence workers lived.
00:19:04
Speaker
Okay, so just coincidental they all live there. Right, or several of them. Okay. Not surprisingly, Gareth continued to perform his job well. Again, we don't know the specific details of what Gareth was working on for SIS, but most sources tended to indicate similar lines of focus, most notably the idea that
00:19:29
Speaker
He was working alongside the United States NSA, so our National Security Agency, to monitor communication by organized crime groups, one of which was a Moscow-based mafia cell, to identify their international money laundering routes.
00:19:49
Speaker
I'm just not brave enough to do a job like that. Yeah. He's intercepting communication and trying to figure out and decipher codes so he can identify money laundering routes.
00:20:06
Speaker
So he was, I mean, he was doing well at work. He was leading meetings and what we know of his activity, including having just been sent to Las Vegas to attend the Black Hat briefings and DEFCON conference, according to journalist Duncan Campbell,
00:20:25
Speaker
It seems as though Gareth was beginning to take more of a role in the field as opposed to merely sitting behind a desk and working for these agencies. Like active instead of passive work. Yes. And he had actually even taken training courses just recently in quote, active operational work. But Maggie, Gareth was not happy.
00:20:53
Speaker
and his changing job was no longer the one that he cherished that he had with GCHQ. In fact, he wanted to go back to Gloucestershire, and he had even begun plans to make that happen sooner rather than later. In a statement, Gareth's sister Carrie made to police
00:21:17
Speaker
She said, quote, he disliked office culture, post-work drinks, flash car competitions, and the rat race. He even spoke of friction in the office, end quote. So he had actually asked to return to GCHQ early, and they had agreed that he could do it in just a few short weeks.
00:21:44
Speaker
Oh, good. I was going to ask if he had requested to go back. That's good. Yes. So this is, I guess, more of a competition job, I think he felt like, than the one he had at GCHQ. And so he's just wanting to go back and luckily they say,
00:22:04
Speaker
Yes you can. So we're in August at this point and they said you can go back to GCHQ in September. Oh okay so really a few weeks. Yes and remember how I said he stayed with that one landlady for nearly a decade.
00:22:20
Speaker
He actually called up that same landlady, Jennifer Elliott, and asked if she had any rooms for rent. And she adored Gareth as a tenant because she said he didn't own a television. He didn't have loud guests over. I mean, he was ideal. And she welcomed him back to board with her again. So it was settled. He was to go back to Gloucestershire
00:22:48
Speaker
in September of 2010, and that was only about a month away, his family was super excited because Gareth would, I mean, he would still be about a little less than four hour drive from them in Wales, but he was still two hours closer than when he was in London. So they're excited. So everybody's happy. Yes. But Gareth never moved back.
Discovery of Gareth's Death
00:23:17
Speaker
And instead of his family getting to see Gareth more often, they found themselves instead attending his funeral. So we have a body in this case, which is some, I feel like growing rare for us. Yes, we do. Okay. It's bizarre, but we do.
00:23:39
Speaker
From July 30th to August 1st, Gareth had attended DEF CON in Las Vegas, as I mentioned earlier. And he had actually stayed in the US for a few days longer after the conference was over. And that was his vacation before returning to London. Oh, cool.
00:24:00
Speaker
CCTV footage and other records show Gareth flying back to the UK on Wednesday, August 11th. And footage shows his movements shopping in Knightsbridge and in London's West End.
00:24:21
Speaker
CCTV captured an image of him on Saturday, August 14th, entering the Holland Park tube station that afternoon, and we know that he went to shop at Harrods after visiting an ATM on Sunday, August 15th.
00:24:38
Speaker
So when we say shop, are we talking like when Maggie goes to home goods type shopping or is it like we're getting groceries and things for the apartment? Because I feel like that may be out of character for him if it's shopping for things for like his apartment. You're going to hear some details that are going to sound out of character. So I'm going to say both. But all of these images actually showed Gareth alone.
00:25:09
Speaker
Gareth then went home and cooked one of the peppered steaks that he had bought that day to eat for supper before backing up data to a laptop from his phone around 1130 that evening and then looking at a cycling website around 1 a.m. on the 16th. But just hours later, Gareth failed to show up at work on Monday, August 16th, 2010.
00:25:38
Speaker
when he was scheduled to lead a meeting. And he's still at the SIS place? Yes. At this time? Yes. Okay. He failed to show up the next day as well. And the next. And the next. His sister had tried to call him several times and got no answer.
00:26:02
Speaker
Now, another inconsistency in the research is whether Gareth's colleagues or Gareth's sister contacted law enforcement to do a welfare check. But one week after Gareth first failed to show up to work, so on Monday, August 23rd, 2010,
00:26:24
Speaker
Police arrived at Gareth's apartment on the top floor of the apartment building on Alderney Street to check on him. So it's been a week since
00:26:37
Speaker
Gareth hasn't shown up or been answering the phone. I'm really anxious to see what they found. Nervous. They arrived in the afternoon. Their knocks received no answer. So they requested a key from the letting agent to Gareth's apartment and entered. What they first noticed was how hot it was in the apartment.
00:27:04
Speaker
Yes, this was the end of August, but the temperature on the thermostat had also been turned up to make the flat even warmer. So that's weird. Still sparsely decorated, much like his room in Gloucestershire was. There were some items that stood out.
00:27:31
Speaker
On the table was a mobile phone, as well as several other mobile phone SIM cards. Just laying on the table. Other sources said two phones, SIM cards, and an Apple notebook. Though, again, my sources, some of them just said the one phone and the SIM cards. Others said two phones, SIM cards, and an Apple notebook. So I'm not sure. But that could all be related to his job. Correct.
00:28:00
Speaker
They saw a red wig hung on the back of a chair in the dining area, and there were boxes of items stacked up. I'm gonna come back to those boxes in a minute. Law enforcement continued looking around the apartment, calling Gareth's name. When they entered the bathroom, turned the light on, and pulled open the shower curtain. No, I'm so scared, okay. They saw something else unusual
00:28:31
Speaker
a medium-sized red North Face carry-all bag was sitting in the bathtub. I swear to God, Allison, if you tell me that inside this bag he is cut up inside there, I will die. He's not cut up. But the bag looked full and the two zippers that you pull together
00:29:00
Speaker
had been padlocked closed. PC John Gallagher, who was on the scene, lifted the bag only to find how heavy it was and that when he lifted it, blood dripped from the bag and trickled down the drain. So he set the bag back down, cut a small incision into the bag's fabric,
00:29:30
Speaker
to see the naked and decomposing body of Garrett Williams. Oh my god. Due to the state of decomposition, which was quickened by the sweltering heat in his flat, police determined that he had likely died a week earlier.
00:29:53
Speaker
The first day that he hadn't shown up to work on August 16th, 2010. So what had happened to Gareth? Who was responsible and why was his body inside of a bag? The questions were only beginning.
00:30:13
Speaker
There were many details about the crime scene that I want to go ahead and reveal to you now Maggie that will make our theories and make this case in and of itself so much more complex. So here are those details.
00:30:30
Speaker
Oh, I'm a little nervous. Okay. I don't know how they determined this, but my research reports that the police determined that Gareth's door to his flat had been locked from the outside. Hmm. Like, I don't know how they would determine that. But everything that I read said that it was. This would seem to indicate that Gareth had been murdered. After all,
00:30:59
Speaker
Someone had to have left the apartment after Gareth was in the bag in order for the door to be locked from the outside. So that means they would also have a key to his apartment. Since the door was found locked with no damage to the door or the frame,
00:31:19
Speaker
They determined that there had been no forced entry, though law enforcement removed the lock and the door anyway for examination. What would that tell? I wonder. I have no idea, but I read that it was removed.
00:31:38
Speaker
Next curious thing were the items found in the flat. So while there was a phone, at least one, and SIM cards on the table, the phone that was placed there had been reset to its factory settings, erasing all of the information, images, texts, etc. that had been on it.
00:32:04
Speaker
So I wonder if maybe he realized he was in trouble and did that before someone could find the stuff on his phone.
00:32:12
Speaker
Like if he thought somebody was after him, if he had some secret information on it, maybe. Yeah. Or if the person that killed him knew there was incriminating evidence on the phone about them, so they reset it to what you're saying. Could be that too. Yeah. We also have the puzzling red wig that was hanging on a back of the chair, as well as the boxes of items stacked in the apartment. So let me tell you about these boxes. Inside the boxes,
00:32:40
Speaker
were around $20,000 worth of women's clothing and shoes, sizes six to eight on the clothing, and 26 pair of size six and a half shoes. All of this stuff was new with tags, along with other wigs and makeup. So do you think that he was maybe trying to leave this profession and assume a new identity?
00:33:10
Speaker
Uh, we're going to talk about lots of theories that have to do with these clothes. All of the clothing, by the way, was designer. So brands like Stella McCartney, um, Dior, Louboutin, which are, you know, the shoes with the red. Yeah. Heels are red. So bougie taste. Bougie taste. Yes. But remember, Gareth was not a hoarder. We've seen that.
00:33:38
Speaker
Yeah, he lived. He slept. My kid did. Yeah. Why were these clothes here? Whose were they? But even more confusing than why those items were there was why certain items were not there.
00:33:55
Speaker
When law enforcement searched the flat for DNA evidence, they found hardly anything.
Theories on Gareth's Death
00:34:02
Speaker
Scotland Yard joined the search for answers in the case and found no trace of Gareth's fingerprints or his footprints in the bathroom. So do we think it's just been cleaned?
00:34:15
Speaker
We're going to talk about that. Yeah. So even though he was naked in the bag, there were no footprints on the ground, no fingerprints on the sides of the tub and no fingerprints on the lock of the bag itself. And this detail led the coroner, Fiona Wilcox, to argue that the quote, wiping clean of the scene supported her determination that there was quote, third party involvement.
00:34:44
Speaker
and Gareth's death, meaning he was murdered. Throughout the entire apartment, there were only small inconclusive fragments of DNA, two on the bag itself, one from a hair and Gareth's hand, and then other small traces of DNA throughout the apartment. But other than that, really the only DNA that was
00:35:09
Speaker
A full sample found in the apartment were a few small traces of semen that were determined to be Gareth's and one other of semen that has never been identified found on a green towel in the kitchen. Curious. Yes. Then there was the riddle of Gareth's placement in the bag.
00:35:36
Speaker
While his body had decomposed, there were no clear signs of what had happened to him. There were no bullet holes. How tall is this bag that we're talking about? I mean, it's... Well, we'll get to the size here in a bit, but it is just like a medium-sized bag. I mean, it would probably be like a duffel bag. Like a carry-on size? Like a duffel bag. Okay.
00:36:04
Speaker
But there were no bullet holes, no stab wounds. There were a couple of small bruises on one of his elbows, but I mean, that could have been caused by anything. His body showed no signs of alcohol or recreational drug use when an autopsy was performed. And the look on his face was peaceful. Did he suffocate? That's the thought, yes.
00:36:33
Speaker
Inside the bag, under his right butt cheek, were the keys to the padlock. The keys to freedom, to air, to life. Was he bound?
00:36:52
Speaker
Near Gareth's head inside the bag were a few small scratches, but it did not appear as though Gareth had been frantically attempting to escape from the bag.
00:37:05
Speaker
Now, yeah, now the speculation begins swirling. Did Gareth place himself in the bag? Is that why he seemed so at peace? Had someone else done this to him? Why was he naked? Why was he in a bag? Why were the keys in the bag with him instead of merely tossed?
00:37:24
Speaker
If he was alive, why didn't he try to escape? Was he murdered before he was placed in the bag? If so, where were signs of the crime or of a struggle? And if he was killed elsewhere, why was his body brought back to his own apartment? And again, why the bag? I have so many thoughts, but I'm just going to wait.
00:37:48
Speaker
You guys know our obsession with Krispy Kreme and other sweets, and at the same time, how we detest exercise. Yes, we do. But as we grow older, those calories and extra sugar seem to add up faster and faster with each passing year. And it's time to start thinking about how the way I eat affects my life.
00:38:10
Speaker
The problem is that so many of those healthier options don't have that same good taste as the sugary ones. I really felt the switch with my breakfast routine and my healthier cereal options until Magic Spoon, which offers all the flavors we love from our childhood, but without all the added sugars. Magic Spoon's variety pack includes four flavors, cocoa, fruity,
00:38:35
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:40:09
Speaker
and use promo code COFFEE. Thank you Magic Spoon for sponsoring this episode. Allison and I find it hard to record together these days with everything going on in our lives. That's why we began looking for a recording platform that would allow us to record the same quality crisp audio that we could have in person. Allison made it her mission to find the best recording platform for doing just that. And that's when she discovered Zincaster.
00:40:35
Speaker
Zencaster is what Maggie and I use each week to record our episodes, and it is extremely easy to use, even if you've never used a recording platform before. You don't have to download a thing. I go to the website zencaster.com, create the session for which you can record audio, video, or both, and then email Maggie the link. She clicks, and that's it. We're ready to hit the record button and start.
00:41:00
Speaker
Even when we have guests who aren't tech savvy, all they have to do as well is click the link to join the recording. Zencaster is an all-in-one podcast production suite that gives you studio quality audio and video without needing to have any technological background knowledge.
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Speaker
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00:41:43
Speaker
Worry no more. We want you to have the same easy experience as we do. If you go to zen.ai slash coffee and cases pod zero and enter promo code coffee and cases pod zero, all one word, you'll get 30% off your first three months. Again, that zen.ai slash coffee and cases pod zero. It's time to share and easily record your story. There were so many questions, Mackie.
00:42:13
Speaker
Yes, yes, there are so many. And even law enforcement and the public kept waffling in their beliefs. So while at first it was determined that a third party had likely been involved in the crime, that this was murder, law enforcement later speculated that either Gareth's death were a tragic accident or that he had taken his own life.
00:42:39
Speaker
Hey, I was wondering if it was maybe assisted suicide. I don't know, we'll talk about all of it, but okay. Yes, we'll talk about it.
00:42:45
Speaker
Detective Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt argued that it was, quote, theoretically possible, end quote, for Gareth to get himself into the bag without touching the sides of the tub, therefore no fingerprints. So without further ado, let's get into the theories. Okay. The first theory is that Gareth committed suicide.
00:43:10
Speaker
Our first exploration into this theory would need to be motive. Why would Gareth want to commit suicide? See, this has been my hang up on, you know, as I'm thinking on this theory as well because
00:43:28
Speaker
I feel like if he had called the government headquarters and they had denied his transfer back, then I could say he committed suicide, but he knew he was moving back. So I don't know. I know. Yeah. So those who believe this theory, they argue that Gareth was unhappy with his job. He didn't feel fulfilled with work the way he had before, but many also believe
00:43:54
Speaker
and we'll get into this with this theory in the next one, that Gareth had a secret life that most people in his life had no inkling even existed. And okay, I got this too. Yes, this was I'm gonna wait and say it perpetuated by police comments after Gareth's death. They argued
00:44:15
Speaker
that Gareth was leading a double life not as an agent and then as a citizen but as a man who behind closed doors was interested in cross dressing and drag. So I initially kind of leaned this way when you said there was another semen sample they collected. I'm wondering if maybe
00:44:44
Speaker
Garrett was interested in men. So, yeah, we will talk about that. Okay. So they made the comment that Gareth had likely purchased, this is law enforcement, by the way, when I say they, that Gareth had likely purchased all of the women's clothing for himself to wear.
00:45:08
Speaker
and pointed out that Gareth had recently attended a show by British comedian, Johnny Woo, who dresses in drag and created events for transvestite talent and lip-syncing competitions. So those two details together made law enforcement speculate that Gareth was a transvestite and that perhaps he had grown tired of having
00:45:34
Speaker
to conceal his true identity or that he feared how others would react when they found out. So were these clothing items and the shoes Garrett Gareth size because six and a half is a tiny foot. Yeah. No they were not. So they're in a problem that we'll get to. But yeah if the death were intentional
00:46:00
Speaker
then that would explain why Gareth's face looked peaceful and resolute. If he placed himself in the bag, which we'll look at here in a moment, due to the airtight nature of the fabric, and this is what you were asking earlier, forensic pathologist determined that he would have suffocated in as little as two to three minutes due to elevated carbon dioxide levels in the bag.
00:46:27
Speaker
But could he have also locked himself in the bag? I mean, that would have been difficult to do, but they're saying that he couldn't have. Well, okay. Plus, we must add to our discussion that there did not appear to be any evidence that Gareth had attempted to escape from the bag.
00:46:48
Speaker
Richard Shepherd, a pathologist who studied the case, has said that it was likely that Gareth was alive when he was put in the bag because he argued that it would have been too difficult to arrange a corpse into the position which Gareth occupied in the bag. Those who believe this theory is possible wonder whether Gareth, who was so adept at solving ciphers and riddles in his daily life, had decided to create one.
00:47:17
Speaker
with his death. I hadn't even thought of that. They add the details that in his apartment, they found a newspaper clipping of an article that was titled Top Five Regrets of the Dying. So could that have been a message about Gareth's mental state? That's what many people wonder because some of the reasons that were listed in that article were to have the bravery to quote, live a life true to myself.
00:47:47
Speaker
and to, quote, express my feelings, end quote. But now let's get into the crux of the problem with this theory. How did he get into the bag to begin with without leaving fingerprints? So law enforcement had previously stated that it was, quote, theoretically possible, end quote, for Gareth to have put himself into the bag without touching the sides of the tub.
00:48:14
Speaker
Did we attempt to do this to prove this theory? Yes, several individuals set out to prove whether that statement were true. So in total, separate experts, Peter Folding and William McKay and William McKay's assistant, attempted over 400 times.
00:48:36
Speaker
400 times to zip themselves into a bag this exact same size without touching the tub. These experts, two male and one female, were roughly the same size as Gareth and the woman was even a bit smaller. None of them were able to fully complete the task.
00:49:02
Speaker
I mean, Gareth was really smart. So do you think he just maybe knew of a better way? I don't know, because even when they were, 400 times, and these are experts. I mean, it's not like Joe Schmo off the street.
00:49:19
Speaker
Even when they were able to get into the bag, Maggie, they were unable to get the zippers pulled together and the lock in place through the top of the zipper to get the bag locked. And all without leaving fingerprints, also no fingerprints on the lock. And this lock, it wasn't in the hole at the end of the zipper, but at the top of the zipper.
00:49:45
Speaker
So I'm going to share this photo with you guys, sleuth hounds, when I do the social media post on this episode. But Maggie, will you scroll all the way down to the end of the episode and you will see where the lock was. So the lock is through like the tab, like the not not the tabs on the zipper, but like the actual zipper part. Yes. So how are you going to get that on there from inside the bag?
00:50:16
Speaker
and without getting fingerprints on the lock. I feel like it's impossible. Yeah. So, I mean, there are lots of problems with this theory. And even that detail of Gareth's prints not being on the lock is improbable because he would have had to have had some way of wiping the lock clean, but there was no sign of a cloth to wipe the lock or gloves to prohibit fingerprints that were found either in the bag with Gareth or outside of it.
00:50:46
Speaker
That's why I was wondering if maybe it was assisted suicide. And we'll get to that in one of the other theories. Oh, OK. One of the experts who tried to get in the bag said of the attempts, quote, I couldn't say it's impossible, but I think even Houdini would have struggled with this one, end quote.
00:51:09
Speaker
Basically impossible. Yes. Plus, wouldn't it have been possible to arrange Gareth in there immediately after death before rigor mortis? Like that cop is saying, oh, no, he had to have been alive when he got in there because of the position he was in. But if he's knocked unconscious or something, I would think that you could, you know, or he's... Yeah, get him in there. Right.
00:51:36
Speaker
Or maybe he's like forcefully told, get in there. Exactly. Well, then I feel like he would have maybe tried to escape. I don't know. That's true. Forgot about that. I just don't see why they were so quick to imply that him being in the bag meant it had to have been voluntary. And if Gareth did act alone, again, how did the door to his flat get locked from the outside? Oh yeah, too many flaws with this one.
00:52:03
Speaker
Additionally, I just don't buy the fact that Gareth would have committed suicide because neither of their explanations for motive makes complete sense to me. So if it were due to his dislike of his new job, you said this a minute ago, he was only weeks away from moving back to his old home and going back to GCHQ. Right. So I just think he had something to look forward to.
00:52:31
Speaker
And though there are exceptions, generally, individuals who make plans on attempting suicide are not also making plans for other events.
00:52:43
Speaker
Like if this were suicide- Yeah, we've talked for that a lot. Yeah, it would have had to have been one that he planned out far in advance. This wasn't a spur of the moment, highly emotional suicide. So my point is that with Gareth being so calculated, I don't think that he would have made plans to move back and called his past landlady to make those plans if he knew that he were going to commit suicide. Yeah, I agree.
00:53:11
Speaker
I also don't believe that Gareth had a secret life as a transvestite. I mean, if he enjoyed dressing in women's clothing, that was his choice. But here's why I don't fully believe it. Now, this is just me speculating. But I feel like those who would choose to cross dress probably don't make that decision overnight.
00:53:40
Speaker
I feel as though there would have been small steps to get to the point of purchasing an entire $20,000 wardrobe. Like maybe he would have a single pair of women's shoes that he wore or underwear or a blouse or maybe some makeup that he'd previously used.
00:54:05
Speaker
And they would have been in the correct size. Yes. Yeah. So it just feels too tidy to me that there were no signs of past cross-dressing with like used clothes, shoes, underwear, or makeup, and that all of this is new and still in boxes. And his friend Sean Lloyd-Jones also said that these clothes, like you just said, Maggie, would have been too small for him to fit in.
00:54:33
Speaker
And she also kind of got upset. The police failed to mention that Gareth also had 10,000 pounds, money, not weight, worth of mountaineering equipment in his flat as well. Oh, okay. Yeah. So. So she's like, they're making it sound as though this was his life. But I mean, he had mountain climbing equipment in there too.
00:54:56
Speaker
I also don't know Maggie if it fits with Gareth's personality to have bought all of these items for himself. Because as far as we know, he didn't have a girlfriend whom he was buying these items for. But again, we don't know either way because much of his life was secretive.
00:55:14
Speaker
But when Gareth made the purchases, the shop employees actually recall Gareth coming in to buy the items and saying, according to an April 25th BBC article, that they were for his girlfriend. OK, but I think.
00:55:31
Speaker
He's probably used to not always telling the truth. So maybe he just lied, but maybe they were for his girlfriend. We don't know. Right. His family did indicate that he often bought expensive gifts for family and friends. But if you recall the description of Gareth's old room and even what else was found in this one, there isn't really any past behavior that would indicate that Gareth would buy expensive things for himself.
00:55:59
Speaker
Or that he found much joy in materialistic items. But of course then that also makes me curious about all the money that was spent on mountain climbing. That's what I was about to say. Like, who was that for? I know. I'm really curious whether, and I didn't read either way about this in any of my research, I'm curious whether Garret's fingerprints were on any of those clothing items versus it being, say, planted there.
00:56:29
Speaker
I would imagine that even if you placed yourself in the bag, at some point your survival instinct would kick in and that you would have been gasping for air and trying to escape.
00:56:47
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know that the peaceful look on his face would have happened Even if it was suicide, like you said at some point you're going to be gasping for air So I don't know that he would have looked peaceful Right and that's what makes me wonder if Gareth had been killed before he was placed in the bag The second theory is that Gareth's death was accidental either from practicing escapology or
00:57:17
Speaker
That, and you kind of alluded to this, that this was some sexually motivated act gone awry. So there's someone else there. Okay. Again, this theory presupposes that the women's clothing and the attendance of the Wu drag show indicate that Gareth was leading a dual life and that he perhaps had interests that his family and friends were not aware of.
00:57:47
Speaker
law enforcement also leaked to the media that in their search of Gareth's work computers, that they had noticed some visits to bondage websites. Okay. But can we just say that we don't know what his work involved? Right. And we have lots of weird searches on our computers. What would somebody think of me? Yeah. Yes.
00:58:16
Speaker
So they took those visits to mean that Gareth was interested in bondage and perhaps even sexually drawn to it or claustrophilia, which is the opposite of claustrophobia in that confinement was something that was a turn on for him.
00:58:38
Speaker
All of this information coming out about Gareth's potential activities in his personal life led to another story coming out. When Gareth had rented a room from his old landlady Jennifer Elliott during that time with GCHQ, she and her husband had once heard Gareth shouting for help.
00:58:59
Speaker
When they entered his room to see what was wrong, they had found him in only boxer shorts with his hands tied to the bed posts, unable to escape. He'd been extremely embarrassed when they helped him get out of the bindings. And he explained to them that he'd just been playing around to see if he could get free.
00:59:23
Speaker
Now this would that's definitely not something that I personally would ever tried to do because that makes me anxious just thinking about putting myself in a situation where I might not be able to get out of it. Like those escape all just trick people who like put themselves in chains in a locked box and then dropped down into water. No, thank you.
00:59:46
Speaker
And I'm wondering if he's doing it maybe as a precautionary thing. Like he wants to practice getting out of these circumstances since he's more in the field and not behind a desk now. So that if anything happened he could maybe escape. I actually think that's a very legitimate explanation for it. As he is very logical. Right. Right. And thinking ahead. And the landlady and her husband who cut Gareth loose
01:00:14
Speaker
you know, Gareth promises this is never going to happen again. And it didn't. They all avoided talking about the subject from there on out. Because I mean, really, how do you ever bring that up again? For that time, you. Right. We had to untie you from the bed. When you were in your underwear. Right.
01:00:35
Speaker
When the landlady and her husband were asked about that memory, the landlady did admit that she and her husband had always believed that it was, quote, sexual rather than escapology, end quote. Wasn't there been another person there? That's what I would have thought. Hmm.
01:00:57
Speaker
Additionally, law enforcement also detailed that one interesting video was found on one of Gareth's devices. A video of himself dancing naked in front of the phone camera apart from holding a pair of leather boots.
01:01:20
Speaker
Now, whether this fetish were true or not, there were elements of Gareth's life that he had kept hidden and that his family and friends only found out about after his death. For example, maybe he was just drunk and videotaped himself dancing. Yeah. But one of the things that they didn't know about him was that Gareth had been enrolled in several courses in fashion design. Oh.
01:01:47
Speaker
And if this were a passion of his, no one else seemed aware of it. Well, I mean, that could explain why he had all the designer clothes, even if they weren't his size. Right. But I guess the fact that he had gone to the drag show, that this clothing was there, that there was
01:02:12
Speaker
semen in other places, at least one semen sample that's unidentified. It led law enforcement to question, could Garrett have had a fetish for confined spaces? And maybe he had been with a lover when the death occurred? This is what they're thinking.
01:02:31
Speaker
Right? So if he gets turned on by confined spaces, then maybe Gareth had climbed into the bag willingly, right? With a lover there, because this is something that he has a fetish for, but that he had suffocated accidentally. Because that would have only taken a couple of minutes and maybe scared the other person present had cleaned up the scene.
01:03:06
Speaker
Well, one, I have two. So one right off the bat, if this is the scenario, it's an accidental death because him and his lover are doing what they like. Why would the hate have been turned up? Yeah, I don't know. That's a great question. And then my second question is,
01:03:19
Speaker
before leaving Gareth there in the bag.
01:03:29
Speaker
If this were the case, and this is a fetish he has that he gets turned on when he's in confined spaces, the lover can't get him out of the bag in time or goes to get a drink of water or whatever, and he suffocates in that amount of time.
01:03:47
Speaker
How would, is the lover at fault here? Like, I wonder how this would be prosecuted. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Cause I'm wondering the case that like the lover thought he had the keys and then realizes, Oh my gosh, I've locked this bag. I don't have the keys. Maybe I left them in the kitchen and like goes looking for them. And then breathing is like, yeah, by the time he gets back, he's dead. Right.
01:04:15
Speaker
We're like, Oh my God, we left accidentally left the keys in the bottom of the bag. Let me go find a knife. And by the time he gets back, you know, he's no longer moving. So he knows he's dead. But then I'm wondering, I feel like most normal people would call 911 in that case though. Yeah. Unless like, again, there's this fear of how it would look or.
01:04:36
Speaker
Yeah, or it's a secret you don't want. Yeah, there's a lot that plays into that. Right. But Gareth's family said no to all of this, that none of this sounded at all like Gareth. Additionally, the coroner rejected the idea of suicide or of any quote, auto erotic activity, end quote.
01:04:58
Speaker
and even said that the comments that were made by law enforcement about cross-dressing were merely an attempt at media manipulation and a plot at character assassination or at least throwing doubt in other directions to take the focus off of real possibilities.
01:05:17
Speaker
I mean, because it kind of does if this isn't the true theory. After all, even his visits to those bondage websites were quote, sporadic and isolated, end quote. So it wasn't as though he were continually going to those sites or for extended periods of time. So I mean, he may have been on a pornography website.
01:05:40
Speaker
and clicked on a link that took him to those sides or he may have like you said earlier Maggie been interested in escapology even thinking hey this might be a skill that I need and he was intrigued by it.
01:05:57
Speaker
Former intelligence advisor Crispin Black stated of this theory, quote, the sex game cover is a very useful mechanism in a murder. Not only does it provide a disguise for the actual means and method of death, it trashes the reputation of the victim and blunts the energy of any subsequent investigation, end quote.
01:06:21
Speaker
That can be, that's true too. Yep. And there are other explanations for some of their arguments. So could Gareth have purchased women's clothing because he was studying fashion? Yeah, like I said, maybe he's just interested in it. Perhaps at least the red wig that was hanging on Gareth's chair. It could have been for a Japanese manga event that he was going to attend with a friend, Elizabeth Guthrie, and they were going to dress in character.
01:06:53
Speaker
And even if not that, that, Garris was a spy and you mentioned this earlier. I mean, I could totally see the need to transform someone's identity to protect themselves. So why not as a woman? Yeah. Cause I feel like you're going to suspect him to cut his hair and be a bald man, but you're not going to expect him to wear a wig in women's clothing.
Espionage and Cover-up Suspicions
01:07:17
Speaker
The third fourth and fifth theories, and these are pretty similar so though one of them i'll talk in more detail, but they are all that he was murdered just by various people. So the third theory is that he was murdered by a member of the Russian mafia.
01:07:34
Speaker
because he was involved with that. He was. And years after Gareth's death in September and October 2015, a former KGB agent who had defected from Russia to reside in England, a man named Boris Karpichkov stated that certain individuals in Russia reported that the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service was responsible for Gareth's death.
01:08:02
Speaker
Karpichkov believes that the Russian intelligence service had either attempted to blackmail Gareth into becoming a double agent, and he had refused, or that Gareth had become aware of a Russian mole within SIS and had been close to revealing that double agent's identity. And that was why he was silenced, that they killed Gareth to protect the identity of that other agent.
01:08:32
Speaker
Isn't that really scary to think about watching the Avengers movies right now? And we're just starting from the beginning. So we're on Captain America and there's that like spy in side the American military. And that's so scary to think that that kind of thing happens. I know it's crazy. Yeah.
01:08:52
Speaker
According to Carpichkov, he said that he had noticed cars casing the building the way that, quote, Russian counterintelligence would do, end quote, and the days leading up to August 16th when Gareth likely died. He also argued that that branch of the Russian intelligence often kills by, quote, an untraceable poison introduced to the ear, end quote.
01:09:22
Speaker
Oh, and there was nothing that the autopsy found. So while they did not find any places on Gareth's body that appeared to be the site of a needle injection or anything of that sort, toxicologists did admit that things like cyanide, chloroform, and the like would have been undetectable. One problem with this theory is that the red North Face bag was Gareth's.
01:09:50
Speaker
So that means that if this were a hit by a Russian hitman, he would have had to have come into Gareth's flat, taken him unaware, then used items in Gareth's own apartment to stage a crime scene. And those who argue against this theory say that it relies too much on coincidence and too much speculation to be true. Yeah, I feel like it would be very calculated if it was through the KGB. Right.
01:10:19
Speaker
The fourth theory is that he was murdered by a Mediterranean couple or by someone else who he had come across in his work for the agencies. So in late June or July, a young couple believed to be in their 20s had been buzzed into the apartment building by another resident. And the two had apparently told another tenant that they had keys to Gareth's apartment.
01:10:45
Speaker
But that they knew him as Pier Paolo and not as Gareth Williams. So like maybe he was a spy and they just knew him as his spy name?
01:10:58
Speaker
Yeah, they're in fit images, which is like this computer based facial recognition identification technique showed a young pair casually dressed to see if that would spark any leads. So they send this out to the public, but no leads came in. And now law enforcement argued that the two individuals are likely not linked to Garrett's case.
01:11:25
Speaker
And wouldn't his employer know if he ever went by the name Pierre? I would think so. Yes. Yes. The fifth theory is that he was murdered by someone within SIS. So let me start this theory off with a couple of questions.
01:11:47
Speaker
Why wouldn't SIS have investigated Gareth's no show at work far sooner than letting a week go by? Yeah, cause I feel like most employees, like if I did not show up to work, my boss would call me that day. I don't think they'd wait a week. Yeah. And this is a member of their team who is investigating highly classified information who is missing from work.
01:12:14
Speaker
Like, I would think that would cause a bit more alarm than normal. Right. Yeah. It's not the secretary answering phones. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Who has national secrets. And had they gone to Garrett's flat and insisted on entry or entered themselves, since I imagine all security agents in my head likely know how to pick a lock.
01:12:38
Speaker
Had they gone, they would have found him shortly after death, and then they would have been able to better determine cause of death. It was because they waited so long that cause of death was nearly impossible to determine because of the deterioration of the body.
01:12:57
Speaker
All they could do when they're looking cause of death was rule out options like stabbing or gunshot because there were no bodily wounds, leaving only the option of, you know, suffocation and then poison that wouldn't leave the trace. According to an article in the BBC published on April 25th, 2012, Garrett's manager at MI6 or SIS, a man known as Witness G,
01:13:23
Speaker
So many of the colleagues who testified in Gareth's case did so behind screens to keep their identity protected. So witness G stated that Gareth had never missed a day of work. So then you're thinking, if this guy had never missed a day of work, then why would you let a week go by? Right. Like one day is strange enough. Yeah.
01:13:51
Speaker
When asked why he hadn't reported Gareth missing earlier, he said that he initially believed Gareth had just been stuck on a train and followed with, yeah, followed with, quote, in hindsight, knowing what I know now, should I have taken action? Absolutely. End quote.
01:14:10
Speaker
Additionally, one source reported that Gareth's sister had alerted SIS about her brother around 11.30 a.m. on the 23rd, but that they didn't contact police to investigate and do a welfare check until around 4.30 p.m. So what were they doing? Yeah, what happened? Cleaning up how I'm seeing? Well, that's one theory.
01:14:36
Speaker
And my other question is this Maggie, and I don't know why this is I'm honing in on this. And I don't know if this is true, but in my mind, if the FBI or CIA had an agent who was missing.
01:14:54
Speaker
My guess would be that they would investigate the scene and the case themselves and would not call like the local sheriff's office to report an FBI agent missing or to have a local police department go do a welfare check for a CIA agent. You know, I hadn't even thought about that, but yeah, now that you mentioned it, that's kind of strange because they have the capability.
01:15:19
Speaker
Can they, do you have to go through local channels or can the FBI just start that right away? I don't know. Or I would at least maybe go to another intelligence agency. In my head, it's almost like one of those situations where
01:15:35
Speaker
You know, they say sometimes if somebody is responsible for a crime, they want to have somebody else there with them to discover the murdered body because then it diverts the attention. You know what I mean? Like, I couldn't have done it. We found this person together. It's almost like one of those vibes that I get.
01:15:57
Speaker
In support of this theory, many questioned whether Gareth had perhaps found out information that was supposed to be kept secret even from him.
01:16:08
Speaker
Or maybe he had purposefully looked at information that was beyond his scope of access. Now there was a rumor that emerged in 2015 that a friend of Gareth's requested that he hack into the system to get secret information on whom Bill Clinton had invited to an event and that Gareth had gotten the information. So one theory is that SIS was angry about that security breach
01:16:37
Speaker
and maybe Gareth paid the price. Okay. I just feel like that's a really big jump. Does hacking the computer system to find out who Bill Clinton invited to a party constitute death? In my opinion, not. Does it maybe constitute like a drop in rank and a strongly worded email or visit to your supervisor's office? Probably, but I don't think it constitutes death, but you know, who am I? Yeah.
01:17:05
Speaker
So the coroner, Fiona Wilcox, in the case was extremely vocal about her doubt of the investigation into Garrett's death by the Metropolitan Police's Counterterrorism Command, who didn't even tell lead investigators that they had found nine memory sticks in Garrett's SIS office.
01:17:27
Speaker
What were on them? Was it some data that proved other data breaches? We don't know. So like, what was on these nine memory sticks? Was that why Gareth was killed?
01:17:45
Speaker
Yeah. Did he find something on that? Right. We don't know. Wilcox also argues that the Counterterrorism Command also did not take formal statements when interviewing Gareth's SIS colleagues. So they question, were they trying to protect somebody or some information?
01:18:03
Speaker
In an article titled, Gareth Williams, MI6 death, police inquiry questioned that was published by the BBC on April 5, 2011, intelligence analyst Crispin Black stated the following quote, one of the weaknesses of the investigation is the murder squad are interviewing friends or colleagues at one remove.
01:18:25
Speaker
Interrogation, even if completely innocent people, relies on nuances, checking the story over and over again, and eye contact. That's how policemen decide if you're telling the truth or not. Even if interviewing colleagues to rule them out, it should be done by the people in charge of the investigation, not somebody else.
01:18:50
Speaker
So it's turned over to the local law enforcement to check out the scene, but the interview of the SIS colleagues was not done by that local police unit. It was done by people who were quote unquote friends. Just so many weird things. Garrett's family also feel that the police botched the investigation, perhaps even purposefully.
01:19:19
Speaker
In the March 30, 2012 article, MI6 Death, Gareth Williams' Family in Dark Arts Fear, published by the BBC, lawyer Anthony O'Toole stated before the Westminster Coroner's Court, quote, the impression of the family is that the unknown third party was a member of some agency specializing in the dark arts of the Secret Service.
01:19:43
Speaker
or evidence has been removed post-mortem by experts in the dark arts." So they think that somebody within the intelligence world who carries out the covert killings of a member of their own community was involved.
01:20:02
Speaker
At the very least, if Gareth were involved in top secret programs, it would make sense if SIS had come to Gareth's flat to clear out any sensitive information that could be found by the wrong people.
01:20:19
Speaker
before the local police arrived. So kind of like why his phone was reset in factory settings? Things were wiped away. Like maybe they took the, they'd collected the evidence and then wiped it clean before the local police got there. They question, might Gareth have even died on the night of the 15th? So like you just said, why was his phone restored to the factory settings? Had it been used to arrange a meeting?
01:20:46
Speaker
Did it contain sensitive information that needed to be wiped clean so it didn't fall into the wrong hands? Might then that same someone have just looked up a website they knew Gareth would try to, that Gareth would explore to try to throw off the investigation?
01:21:05
Speaker
Gareth was buried on September 26th, 2010 in his hometown in Wales. In attendance at the funeral was the head of SIS, Sir John Sars. His attendance has made some armchair detectives question whether Gareth had a more important role in the organization than we even realized. Because why else would the head of the organization have attended the funeral?
01:21:34
Speaker
others say he was merely doing as he should and paying his respects to the family. SIS has claimed that there is no connection between Gareth's work with them and his death. On the other hand, there were, according to one article I read, comments made by BBC Home Affairs correspondent Daniel Sanford that quote, there were strong suggestions
01:22:02
Speaker
his laptop is missing, so possibly it may link to his work." Although the original determination by the coroner was that there was likely third-party involvement, as I mentioned earlier, in November 2013, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt told the media that his investigation had concluded that Gareth's death was probably an accident.
01:22:31
Speaker
So Maggie, what are your thoughts? There are still so many questions. Part of me can see the accident angle in some form or another, but I feel like Gareth's family knew him best. And if they don't believe that one, then I don't want to believe that one. I do think it was some type of
01:23:01
Speaker
Like he found out something he didn't need to know. He was like something like theories, the last three theories we talked about. It was like somebody that he had made like an organization he'd made mad. Somebody within his own organization because he found out things he didn't need to know. It's something like that in my opinion. And it could even be a combination of the things. Like maybe it's that he
01:23:29
Speaker
got too involved in a situation that he knew information he shouldn't have had or something like that. And maybe they even came to his house or arranged to come over as a quote unquote friend. And they said, hey, you need to try to learn to escape from things like this. Climb into this bag. You know what I mean? I mean, it could have been anything like that. And they kind of tricked him into the bag.
01:23:58
Speaker
Yeah, because I do think he's smart enough. And, you know, I feel this is, I don't know a very nice way to say this, but like almost weird or awkward enough that in his job, he would say, Oh, I probably need to learn how to, you know, escape from dangerous situations. So I'm going to start practicing this escapeology kind of like a
01:24:19
Speaker
hobby or a pastime, but I still like, I could see himself getting in the, you know, getting himself in the bag. I still don't understand how he would lock it without the fingerprints. So, you know, and if it was that and he was just practicing it, then that explains why the door is locked, but still the lock on the bag itself with no fingerprints. I just feel there had to be somebody else. Yeah, there had to be somebody else. Yeah.
01:24:48
Speaker
Because of Gareth's involvement with national security intelligence groups, there are likely many details about the case that we will never know. In fact, immediately after Gareth's death, we are aware that the United States requested that any link Gareth had to his cooperative work with any of our intelligence agencies not be made public. But his family's grief is something that we are all aware of, their inability to find closure,
01:25:17
Speaker
One that is all too common to the cases we cover on the show and their anger, their despair, their weeping prayers for answers, ones we all too easily understand. Gareth's headstone reads in Welsh, special son and brother, free in the mountains. Now let's help his family feel free.
01:25:43
Speaker
of some of the weight that they continually bear in fighting for justice. Let's share Gareth's story. Anyone with information is asked to contact Crime Stoppers on 0800 555 111.
01:26:02
Speaker
Again, please like and join our Facebook page, Coffee and Case's podcast to continue the conversation and see images related to this episode. As always, follow us on Twitter, at Case's Coffee, on Instagram, at Coffee Case's podcast, or you can always email us suggestions
01:26:18
Speaker
to coffeeandcasespodcastatgmail.com. Please tell your friends about our podcast so more people can be reached to possibly help bring some closure to these families. Don't forget to rate our show and leave us a comment as well. We hope to hear from you soon. Stay together. Stay safe.
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:26:34
Speaker
We'll see you next week.
01:26:55
Speaker
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