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Creative Equity with Marianne Admardatine
100 Plays1 year ago
To launch the Spark podcast with a bang, we spoke to one of our very own… Marianne Admardatine, Chief Executive Officer, at Hill & Knowlton in Indonesia about Creative Equity.
Marianne brought energy, passion and powerful stories to our chat. We discussed things like what diversity means when you live in a country made up of over 17,000 islands and how staying agile has led to some amazing opportunities.
Your hosts for the episode were Lucy Doolan, Creative Director in London and Hannah Quick, Associate Creative Director in New York.
Enjoy!
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Transcript
Diverse Perspectives in a Male-Dominated World
00:00:00
Speaker
In the past, there is a lack of sensitivity and to be honest, a lack of correct insight because men or even women, but living in a man's world, the insight, it's not as accurate as now. Now, because we have so many people from different backgrounds and more female leader, more female creative and non-binary, it gives a different kind of insight that I think allows you to be more sensitive and looking at it from a deeper and broader point of view. I am hopeful.
00:00:29
Speaker
It is going to a direction where it allows a deeper understanding of humans in whatever form.
Introduction to Spark Podcast
00:00:43
Speaker
This is a podcast brought to you by Spark, a global community for female and non-binary creatives at communications agency Hill and Knowlton. I'm Lucy Doolan, creative director in our London office. And I'm Hannah Quick.
00:00:56
Speaker
Associate Creative Director in the New York office, and we'll be your hosts for today's episode.
Creative Equity in Indonesia
00:01:01
Speaker
In this episode, we spoke to the formidable Marianne Admardatine. She's held senior roles in some of the best creative agencies in the world, including JWT, Ogilvy and Wunderman-Thompson.
00:01:14
Speaker
Marion is now CEO at H&K Indonesia and our episode today was focused on the theme of creative equity. We spoke about what diversity looks like when your country is made up of over 17,000 islands and how unexpected challenges are often opportunities not to be missed. We really hope you get as much out of this episode as we did.
00:01:36
Speaker
I wonder if you could tell us a bit about your current role at H&K, where you're based? I am based in Jakarta, Indonesia. I have two current roles. I am the CEO for H&K Indonesia and I'm also the Asia Head for INC. I got an offer to introduce H&K to Indonesia because H&K was not available in Indonesia then.
00:01:59
Speaker
like to challenge because it's literally like receiving a completely blank book that I can start.
Launching H&K Indonesia Amidst the Pandemic
00:02:05
Speaker
We literally started in 2020 and when we were about to launch it in April COVID started but we had the commitment none of us want to back down so we continue on and somehow even despite the pandemic we are growing very fast so I'm quite grateful and amazed at the same time. How was your experience working through the pandemic and sort of starting
00:02:25
Speaker
the business over there at that time? Obviously, we were thinking, what was the key that makes us able to grow that fast? And when we launched it, we already had several clients, but the remit was PR. And then when COVID starts, we can't do all that, right? Everything changes. And we were so worried because we literally just launched. We cannot fail this. I mean, the investment and the kind of preparation that we did, it's not small.
00:02:49
Speaker
So we quickly turned things around even before the government of Indonesia announces that nobody can go out anywhere. We actually went to the client one by one and asked them to rethink and rework the scope with us. Because we told them that there are a lot of things that we cannot do. So we didn't wait. We're lucky the client is actually willing to talk to us.
00:03:09
Speaker
and then willing to change as well. So we started to outline what's possible and what's not. And literally we changed the scopes that they've already signed with us. And we were experimenting. I remember the first digitally driven campaign that we had to do. So it was definitely learning by doing. And the client was quite patient as well because they are going through the same thing. So the client gives us more work and more work and more work.
00:03:34
Speaker
And so we thought, OK, that means whatever we are offering actually suits what they're thinking. And it suits the environment where everything has to be digital or social media. We keep on building the skills, upskilling and all that until we came up with this structure, not based on industry, but so in Indonesia.
00:03:52
Speaker
We have this structure of consultants.
H&K Indonesia's Strategic Structure
00:03:54
Speaker
That's one division. The other division, we call it the think tank, which is that's where all the strategy, all the data analysts sits there, all the brand planning happening in there. And we have the creative and content studio. So these are the structure. Now during that time, HNK Global announces INC. And we were thinking, huh, we were actually already there. So all we need to do is plug it in.
00:04:20
Speaker
So that's where we are now. We started HNK in Indonesia in 2020 for only 10 people, I think. Now we are 96 people. That's just incredible and congratulations to UNHS. Thank you. It really is amazing and
00:04:39
Speaker
Two very powerful women leading the group over there. And our theme today is aptly around creative equity. Could you tell us a bit more about how you see the relationship of the sector to creative equity
Gender Disparities in Creative Equity
00:04:53
Speaker
at the moment? What does it mean to you?
00:04:55
Speaker
Just a little bit of a background. As you know, Indonesia is a very large country, right? In terms of population, we are number three in the world. The larger part of the population is low income earners and all that. And obviously the situation is very different to us within the middle range, right?
00:05:12
Speaker
Our industry, obviously in the middle side, this is not on the majority of Indonesia. So we are talking about creative equity. You'd be very surprised actually in Indonesia, we have a lot of female creative. There are a lot of female ECD in Indonesia. Although in this industry we have many, the larger population is different. They are not fortunate enough to have the kind of education to go up there.
00:05:38
Speaker
Although you are right, not until several years ago, there are not many female creatives. It is a male-dominated industry then. And it started to change a lot, but all these cities were men during that time. I am hoping in a very positive light, it's going to continue to grow and rise. And the creative
00:06:00
Speaker
output is also changing. In the past, there is a lack of sensitivity and to be honest, a lack of correct insight, because the insight will get there by men or even women, but living in a man's world, the insight, it's not as accurate as now. Now, because we have so many different people from different backgrounds and more female leader, more female creative and non binary, it gives a different kind of insight that
00:06:27
Speaker
I think allows you to be more sensitive and looking at it from a deeper and broader point of view. I am hopeful. It is going to a direction where it allows a deeper understanding of humans in whatever form. And it's that honesty, isn't it? And authenticity that you get from those insights because they are true and real. And I wonder what you think still needs to happen to make the creative industries truly diverse. Like what in Indonesia do you think is missing?
00:06:58
Speaker
The country is so large and the country is also very rich in terms of where there were natural resources, labor and all that. So sometimes the Indonesians feel that I am OK living in Indonesia. I don't need to be affected by what happened around the world.
00:07:18
Speaker
We want to work with a brand, let's say Unilever, for example. We work with a brand who we want them to aspire to, whether it's women and others. They're only looking at it from an Indonesia point of view. Well, this is actually an international brand who has a different purpose globally that might not be fitting with what Indonesia is experiencing.
00:07:42
Speaker
That is actually what is lacking. But what I see now for the last few years, especially with the current government, they're trying to embrace the global agenda more. I'm like, okay, at least people are more open now. Don't forget that Indonesia is also a population with the largest Muslim religion actually available in this country.
00:08:03
Speaker
So when we talk about diversity in countries or continents like the US and Europe, it's very different from diversity here. Because we have a religion aspect, we have the ethnicity. Indonesia has around 27,000 islands.
00:08:20
Speaker
And each of the island has their own dialect, their own language, and then their own culture, and their own religion, you know, segmented here and there. So that's the diversity challenge that we are actually facing, especially between the majority and the minority. So while we are trying to embrace the global agenda, we are also having a very big homework in this country about a different set of diversity problem.
00:08:45
Speaker
that we need to tackle. If you have a foreigner coming to Indonesia leading an agency or be the head of the creative and then you have Indonesian's creative team or brands, you can see the kind of mismatch because the foreigner coming here has different sets of understanding while here we have a different sort of challenge.
00:09:09
Speaker
So finding that sweet spot in the middle is definitely one of the most challenging thing in the creative industry in Indonesia. That's so fascinating and so different as well from, you know, my experience in the UK. And I guess that's what's so cool about Spark is that we're hearing these different perspectives globally. And it's important for a global agency and connecting with these different experiences from people all over the world. How much
00:09:37
Speaker
does gender play a part in your role as a leader? You know, has this been something that's been important to you? And if it has, how has this shown up in your career?
Reflections of a Pioneering Female CEO
00:09:47
Speaker
I didn't realize it was that important until I was in William and Thomas in GWT because I just find out literally then when I was appointed as the CEO of GWT, I am literally the first Indonesian woman that was made CEO of GWT in GWT history in Indonesia.
00:10:07
Speaker
So that was a shocker to me. I started to look at the Indonesian women needs, especially in our industry, right? Indonesian women, when the company finds out that they are pregnant,
00:10:19
Speaker
that are gonna be promoted. I never knew this for real until I experienced it. At that time, even when I was experiencing it, I didn't take it as an offense. I take it as more of a disappointment because I wanted the promotion, but I didn't think of it as a discrimination. So what I did was I worked very hard during my pregnancy. I was promoted one day before I gave birth because my boss started to say, okay, she's not joking yet. Like she's still doing the work until the last day and all that.
00:10:49
Speaker
And again, I didn't feel I was shortchanged. It was funny, right? Because I wasn't aware of it as much. And then I started to realize, wow, this actually matters to a lot of people. So I wanted to use what I already achieved and where I was to start spreading the influence, if I could use the term.
00:11:07
Speaker
My first thing that I did in Hechenke was I have this one girl that she's young. She's super fantastic, right? She has this passion, but she's also pregnant and she was due for promotion. And I was so dying to prove a point that I'm not going to, you know, we should not discriminate anyone. So I literally promoted her one month before her maternity leave.
00:11:31
Speaker
I just want to make a point that she is good, she can do her job. And I remember people's reaction, surprise is one thing. Second of all, then I started to see everybody was so delighted. And then my HR head was so happy because apparently, I didn't know as well, she's been dying to change certain things, but she felt she wasn't empowered enough because she doesn't know how the company will react. Because again, it's not a common thing to do that in her previous jobs as well.
00:12:00
Speaker
So after that, and again, I was lucky because when we brought HNK in Indonesia, it was completely new. So we started to set different rules, whether it's from, you know, the promotion during pregnancy. And then we also introduced paternity leave for the dad. Now I know this is already happening in other countries, but not Indonesia.
00:12:20
Speaker
When we find out one of our colleagues, the wife is pregnant, we give him an option, you can do this with your wife. And so after a while, we solidify it as part of our company policy and our HR started to introduce it to everyone. The position you're in and having the power to be able to make those kind of
00:12:39
Speaker
real changes that have real impact for people that work for you must feel amazing. You say they're little things Marianne but they really add up and they make a big impact. It will mean a lot to those people I'm sure. You know how easy it was?
00:12:54
Speaker
This is the funniest thing. You live with it all your life. You see it happening surrounding you and you take it as the hour that's life. But when I was there and I made the change, it was so easy and I was so surprised. If it's this easy, why is it so difficult? Do you know what I mean?
00:13:12
Speaker
Yeah, why is it so difficult? I mean, really, this is why we need women in positions of power. Back to the point about insights and having those authentic, real insights. You have that insight because you're a woman, so you can support other women in changing policies, etc. Yeah, exactly. You live that experience. So who better to drive that forward?
00:13:33
Speaker
What makes you excited for the future as a female leader? At least the door is opening and it's not as hard, so I really like that. And I also see how everywhere people are making these changes. I see lots of change being made.
00:13:49
Speaker
in this era. I'm also very excited that the work that we produced, especially when it concerns women or the next generation, right, or even the LGBTQ community and all, it is more hopeful and again Indonesia being, you know,
00:14:05
Speaker
population with the largest Muslim country in the world. We definitely have a lot of culture and tradition that is still not breakable until now. And there is this fear of having too much of a Western influence to this side of the world that fear sometimes hinder
00:14:22
Speaker
the progress that slowly we are making. But from the creative output that I see, not all brands and not as many yet, but at least I started to see output where brands are no longer scared and the agency started to produce better. And when I look at some of those work, what I notice is there's always a senior female in that creative theme.
00:14:44
Speaker
to produce this work. Actually, in William & Thompson, I felt very lucky because one of my best top creative director was a transgender. And during the time I was working with her, she was going through the change. So she's also in a lot of challenges beyond one of her work. Because of very sensitive in Indonesia, we had to produce it in Thailand.
00:15:08
Speaker
And it's based on her story, the feeling that she has and how she wanted to be born differently. And our work, born Kansali, and literally it will make you cry. But that was supposed to be produced in Indonesia. But during that time, it is not allowed because Indonesian government still have certain rules and regulation. And the client obviously too scared because they still want to do business in Indonesia. But the global team saw this such a good script. So we move it to Thailand. So between the two offices, we work together and produce it in
00:15:38
Speaker
I feel lucky that I was exposed to that because that also allows me to not just female, there are other homework that we need to do, you know, in terms of the creative space and communication space. You keep saying you're lucky, Marianne, but I really don't think it's just luck. I think you're clearly very passionate, super busy, and you also invest so much into your relationships.
00:15:59
Speaker
both your clients and your team. So when you need to be adaptable, like all the stories you've told us today, where you've had to use that more creative approach, people trust you. Your team and your clients are always there along for the ride. And as a leader, that's really not easy. But you get them to take a jump with you and try new things and really have that leap of faith. And it's really, really inspiring.
00:16:19
Speaker
We were talking about how we can get clients to actually work with us and maybe buy some of these ideas that might be challenging from a sort of diversity, equity and inclusion perspective. Why that might be challenging and how we can sort of overcome maybe some of the nervousness or the fear I guess they have of going with those ideas. And I wondered if you had any sort of perspective on working with clients around those difficult subjects and challenging subjects.
00:16:45
Speaker
To be honest, it's still a challenge now, because when we found a good idea, we always presented to the client. And yes, the client loves it, but there's always this fear. What if it has a backlash? What if the majority of the Indonesians do not understand? What if the government notices? So yes, I do experience that as well. And I think most agencies experience that. And by timing and luck, sometimes you succeeded to convince them and they're willing to do it.
00:17:11
Speaker
Sometimes you don't and sometimes what we're trying to do is also to change the idea in such a way that the message is not too forefront.
00:17:25
Speaker
At least we get the message across, but it's not too far from. Also, sometimes when we produce something, we might not be able to play it in Indonesia. We can only play it outside. Now, the thing is sometimes it goes back because social media, you cannot control it, right? I have a case where it was good. We want to socialize it.
00:17:44
Speaker
but it was a taboo in Indonesia. So we work with another office from another country. So even if it goes to Indonesia, it is not from Indonesia. So nobody can do anything. So we circumvent the system that way. We find ways and loophole so that the idea can still come alive without having a backlash. We still do that, unfortunately, until now. And I guess that's another form of creativity, isn't it?
00:18:10
Speaker
How to get the idea to actually run. It is. It is because you're literally digging. Exactly. And if you notice, right, this is not about the money. There's nothing, it's not about budget. It's about how do you do this, you know? What piece of creative work are you most proud of, Marianne?
00:18:26
Speaker
One of my work was with the Ministry of Tourism for Indonesia. I worked with 14 countries at the moment working on that and it was a completely grand work. I don't know if you've ever seen the Indonesian tourism logo, it's called Wonderful Indonesia. It is actually the work of myself and my team and it is still used until now. I actually reported to
00:18:47
Speaker
the minister himself for three years. And we literally market Indonesia in a different way. And I'm working as a PR capacity, by the way, I wasn't working as a brand capacity, but we were forced to actually work beyond. And I learned a lot, obviously, we created the brand book. And because it belongs to the country, through the Ministry of Tourism, you cannot just launch it. So you have to go to the cabinet to get an approval, because we are using country's money to produce
The Wonderful Indonesia Tourism Project
00:19:15
Speaker
that.
00:19:15
Speaker
You do different kinds of programs to reach a global audience and all that. We revamped the website. So instead of just a normal government website, we work with Adobe to create a marketplace for the mini-situism and allows operators to actually use that to sell their products.
00:19:33
Speaker
So we did like crazy stuff for three years, like something that I've never dreamed that I would be able to do. And the crazy bit was on the third year where I moved from Ogilvy to GWT and I had three months break. So I've told both parties, you know, both Ogilvy and GWT, I am going to have a break for three months, please do not bother me. And you know what happened? Because obviously our biggest product is Bali, right? Who doesn't know Bali in Indonesia?
00:20:00
Speaker
And Mount Agung, the volcano in Bali, erupted in the beginning of my three months leave. So I already quit from Ogilvy. I had three months to join JWTN. The minister called me and he goes, I don't care if you're on holiday. You've got to come back.
00:20:16
Speaker
So I went in, I canceled everything. And then because I have no team, so what I did is I borrowed Ogilvie's team and then I borrowed JWT's team. We worked together and we split the revenue within the two agencies for the crisis. There are a lot of foreign tourists in Bali. They cannot go out. We cannot go in. And we actually run a live media center from two cities, Jakarta and Bali. And then after three months, again, it was fixed.
00:20:46
Speaker
But I have no more holiday to start in GWT. So yes, that was my craziest, craziest time. And to merge two agencies like that as well. I know at WPP we work with other agencies a lot, but that really does seem to be taking you into a whole other level. But talk about desperate times needs desperate measures, yeah. I call both of them like I don't care, I can see that's going to be done.
00:21:10
Speaker
I was just reading that even during the pandemic, in 2020, you recorded 40% revenue growth. I honestly don't know how you're doing this. Whenever you're faced with a new challenge, you don't seem to just tackle it, but you've come out the other side even stronger than ever. So what is next for your ever-growing team,
Embracing Adaptability Over Grand Plans
00:21:27
Speaker
Marianne?
00:21:27
Speaker
People tend to have a grand plan, right? And okay, in the next several years, you're going to have this and next several years, you're going to have this. I don't have that grand plan, but I see lots of opportunity. I refuse to see all these challenges as something that stops me. So
00:21:45
Speaker
While we are managed to grow, while we are managed to cultivate different, whatever is different culture, different skills, I do not want any challenges and any negativity influence the kind of growth that we can have. So every year we started to see different trends. And so rather than we need to create a structure, we need to bind by the structure, I prefer we look at it
00:22:10
Speaker
This year, the agenda is this. How do we mold ourselves to plug into that agenda, to plug into that trend and then start creating? I do that rather than, oh, but we have this structure. We have to follow this. We cannot do it because there is this mandate or there is this regulation. I don't want to think that way.
00:22:30
Speaker
unless you can follow what's happening in the world and the world are changing so fast, you are not going to grow. I think you used the word nimble in the beginning of our podcast. I think that's it. Regardless of your age, regardless of your gender, regardless of whatever it is that you do, just be nimble so that you can adapt quickly. I see that more rather than making a grand plan because look at COVID, right? All the grand plan is just out in the window as soon as one virus kicks in, right?
00:23:00
Speaker
I want to be a realist as well. I have too much passion. I think it could be a good thing, it could be a bad thing, but I'm managing it in such a way where I have to be a realist as well. So rather than creating a grand plan, I am just trying to be as aware as I should be as much as I could so that I can be nimble and continue to grow depending on the situation.
Advice for Young Creatives
00:23:21
Speaker
give one piece of advice to a young woman or a non-binary person that's starting out in their career in the creative industry, what would that be?
00:23:31
Speaker
So I like to use that quote from Einstein where he says, only the crazy keeps doing the same thing but expecting a different result. So meaning is that, especially for people like us who have to work twice as hard because not all privileges are given to us, keep doing different things. So if you're actually doing something for a period of time and please don't wait too long, and you started to feel that this is not working out,
00:23:54
Speaker
try different methods, try different things. Because if it's not going to work out in the first few months or a top one year, it's not going to work out in the next few years. So we're always ready to make that change. And there is this saying of better the devil, you know. So sometimes although it's difficult, but because you are in that situation for a long time, you develop a sense of comfort.
00:24:16
Speaker
And because you're too afraid to make the change and that's I think some time can be a big challenge. So my advice is definitely as soon as you know something is not working, please start finding new ways because only then you can find out the kind of change that you can make.
00:24:30
Speaker
That's fantastic, and feels very nimble as well. Thank you so much for your time, Marianne. I feel so energised and lucky that we got to speak to you. You have so much passion, fantastic stories from your career, and yeah, thank you for joining us on the very first Spark episode. I know, thank you, and I'm honoured, I'm the first one, really, oh my God, thank you so much.
00:24:58
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more or connect with Marianne, you can find her on LinkedIn. We'll make sure to add a link to the description of this episode. This podcast was produced by Lucy Doolan and myself, Hannah Quick. We'd also like to thank Mae Murrow for designing our wonderful cover art, Leah Taub for creating our jingle and doing the story editing, and Zoe Durham for assistant editing. We'd also like to thank Jack Bushell, Marina Cascan, and Grace Nutthole for all their podcast advice. It really does take a village.
00:25:24
Speaker
And of course, thank you to everyone that has listened. This was our first Spark episode and we're so excited to hear from even more inspirational guests. So thanks for all your support and stay tuned.