Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Allyship with Emma Baines & Ross Hopcraft
39 Plays1 year ago
In conversation with Ross Hopcraft (MD/CD at Burson, London), Emma Baines (Global Head of Creative at Tony's Chocolonely) shares insights into her career so far, her personal view on creativity, and why allyship is crucial for greater diversity.
In this episode, Emma also talks about her newsletter, all about her experience as a woman in the creative industry – we recommend signing up for that here.
Big thanks to Greg Pistol for the edit, Maite Moreau for the design and Leah Taub for the music. This podcast was produced by Hannah Quick and Lucy Doolan.
Recommended
Transcript
Gender Dynamics in Workplace Negotiations and Allyship
00:00:00
Speaker
There was this piece of research from the Harvard Business Review, citing that basically women do ask for more in the workplace. we kind of we We ask all these questions, but we just don't receive as many yeses as men. And that in itself is wrong and not OK. And we can demand more. But her ask was,
00:00:19
Speaker
Men, if you demand more, if you come along and you be our allies, if you're going to get the yeses, help us. Help us make this change. And, yeah, I just don't think it's a female issue and i i it's it's an everyone issue. Diversity, equity, inclusion, it's an everyone issue. This podcast is brought to you by Spark, a global community at Berson, female and non-binary creatives.
Introduction to the Episode and Guest
00:00:46
Speaker
My name is Ross Hopcraft and I'm Managing Director and UK Creative Leader, Bursum, and I'll be your host today. And for this episode, I was joined by friend, ex-colleague and current Global Head of Creative at Tony's Chocolaty, Emma Baines. We talked about her passion for creative exploration and the excitement she has of seeing cool shit in the world. As well as what four ingredients you need to create that same cool shit.
Allyship and Team Diversity
00:01:12
Speaker
And as per our theme of allyship, we also talked at length about what we can all do to support, grow and keep a more diverse team. How it can be scary at times and how we can all do more. I hope you enjoy listening to it as much as I did chatting to my friend Emma.
00:01:30
Speaker
Emma Baines, lovely to meet you again. It's been a while. It has. I think the last time I saw you actually was in Amsterdam about a year and a half ago, wasn't it? Yes, it was. It was. And I think you were just into your new amazing role. So I suppose We should talk about your new amazing role. Yeah, still feels new and amazing, though, I'll be honest. so Well, I suppose let's not keep it amongst ourselves. let's so let's Let's broaden this out a little bit and tell me a little bit about your new role at Tony's Chocoloni. Yes, absolutely. So
Emma Baines' Career Journey
00:02:02
Speaker
that's right. I um joined Tony's Chocoloni about a year and a half ago now as a global head of creative. ah It's an amazing role, amazing company.
00:02:14
Speaker
it It sounds incredible, and I'd love to dig into that a little bit more. But maybe beforehand, um what's your journey? How did you get there? I mean, ah we have a past, we work together. That was amazing. But that was just one stepping stone, I'm sure. So what predates Tony's? Good question. And actually use the word stepping stone. And that's also how I look at my career in terms of every part of your career, and anybody's career is a stepping stone to the next stage. And I guess I, I started out at a company called The Future Laboratory. I did an internship there as in sort of kind of, I say production manager was my role, but I kind of just did anything and everything that would help me learn about what it was that I wanted to do. Um, but essentially it was production management and I was looking for the next step, that next stepping stone. I felt like I had done a lot in the agency world.
00:03:09
Speaker
And I was looking for something new and I remember being, I don't know, we'd had, I don't know, I'd probably had a bad day. And I remember kind of quite flippantly looking online for a new job. I was just um as you do. And I saw this job of creative services director for HelloFresh. And I thought, that's great. The role sounds amazing. So I applied and got an interview. And at that first interview, it was quite funny because I actually didn't know that the job was based in Berlin.
00:03:38
Speaker
So when they asked me, oh, how do you feel about relocating? I kind of looked at them a bit blankly and was like, yeah, sure. Why not? Thinking it might be like East, East London or something. But no, that was my first foray into into the in-house world. Uh, and I spent four years at HelloFresh as a started office director of creative services, but it went to global head of global director of creative. As we sort of changed our strategy there and our thinking and our, the the team set up.
00:04:06
Speaker
And so I spent an incredibly wild roller coaster of three, four, four years at HelloFresh in Berlin before moving to Amsterdam for Tony Chocolonely. With a little bit of a sabbatical in between, I took three months out to sort of reflect and regather and reconnect and figure out what it was that I wanted. And I already knew I was going to be moving to Amsterdam because I'd also fallen in love with a Dutchman.
00:04:36
Speaker
So the two worlds kind of collided, both kind of professional and personal. And I found myself in Amsterdam absolutely living the dream. So that sort of brings me up to date.
Creative Passion and Leadership Philosophy
00:04:49
Speaker
Amazing. Amazing. and Your role as head of creative is, um it I mean, it sounds all encompassing and I'm sure it is and I'd love to know a little bit more about it. But I mean,
00:05:01
Speaker
Where do you sit within that sort of the sort of creative universe and what does creativity mean to you in your sort of daily life? But also beyond that, you know what drives you? ah Such great questions. So what does creativity mean? Honestly, when I think about this regularly, actually, I was like, what does creativity mean to me? What does success mean to me? All these things. and Not that they all have to be completely interlinked, but for me, creativity is just about creating cool stuff. seeing cool stuff that moves the needle It's about finding solutions to problems, whether those be our problems, the company's problems, consumer problems, whatever that is. It's generating cool ideas. It's staying curious. It's exploring all avenues.
00:05:45
Speaker
It's a bit of a roller coaster, actually, I would say, creativity. i I love everything about it. I love everything about the creative process. I love that it's this sort of hourglass of you start having a problem or an insight that you want to explore and kind of blowing it out. If you're thinking of an hourglass and looking at the shape of one, blowing it out, and looking at all those options, those avenues of exploration, and then kind of bringing it back in and, you know, reviewing that, thinking of what makes sense, blowing it out again and kind of getting distilling those ideas. I just I love I love that and I I just honestly I just love seeing cool shit in the world and being able to say you did it is one thing and amazing but just seeing it and being like wow that's a great campaign I wish I'd done that is also
00:06:30
Speaker
that's a driving force as well. I couldn't agree more. I think you can never get too bored of that sense of just accomplishment when actually you feel proud that you've helped create something. And I think it's not just about you doing it, but when you're obviously part of a team. And I think obviously I know that, you know, we've been part of the same team. We both run teams and as head of creative, I'm sure your team is extremely talented. And the, the, the, I suppose,
00:07:00
Speaker
satisfaction that you get from everyone coming together to create something is always, um well, you never get bored of it. No, I actually have this motto that has been honed over the years, I should trademark it. But it's how I, because I'm from the small strategic side, but I don't have the traditional creative backgrounds as such in terms of I didn't study graphic design, I did, I did, I did some part of it and in my university course. But it wasn't, that's not my strength, my strength is more the strategic side, finding patterns and bringing those to the forefront and leading a team, leading a people leading a team of people, bringing out the best in them, making those connections, joining the dots and removing barriers that are in their way so that they can create. And my motto that i that I've really kind of honed is, if you've got the right people doing the right thing at the right time and in the right way, which I added after seeing some bad behavior along the way,
00:07:54
Speaker
those four things, if you've got those four things, or even three of those things, or but no more compromising, then you you're on to something really great. And I always ask myself when I'm in a bit of a rut or trying to solve a problem, have I got all those four things? Have I can I tick all those boxes? And if I can't, then we go, then I go back and kind of look at, okay, we haven't got the right people doing this. ah Have we got the wrong specialisms? Do we need more? What talent do we need? Or ah have we got the right timing and so that's just a really good kind of gut check for me in that way. i think it's I think it's fantastic and also it's it's not just about you know you as an individual not specifically you per se but you know an individual just thinking about them having to do everything and I think that's all too common a problem every and you know having the right team at the right place at the right time
00:08:50
Speaker
is is instrumental to the best things because, you know, to try and think that it's a singular problem ah to solve all the time is all too often a mistake.
Mission and Impact at Tony's Chocolonely
00:09:00
Speaker
Now, I think you said to me, was it 18 months you've been at Tony's? Yes. What, can you tell us a career or Tony's highlight ah so far? Something that actually stands out? So, so many. And I honestly would say it's actually working for the company as a highlight.
00:09:19
Speaker
And I say that, and I mean that genuinely because I have worked in many different companies, as I mentioned, different setups, different agencies, different HelloFresh, which is where I was previously. And I can honestly say that the highlight it for me is going, it's twofold. It's going to work every day. It's being surrounded by people that are on the same mission. We are all there for a purpose. And that purpose is to end exploitation in cocoa.
00:09:49
Speaker
That is pretty awesome. The fact that we're all there for the same mission and having that kind of North Star for everything really has that gives that sense of collaboration and everything that you could want. And then the second point to that is I also love being able to tell people that I work there. It's such a lovely thing when you can say to people, I work at Tony's Chocolonely and to see their faces light up. And it's just this really lovely moment and I'm really, really proud to work there That's not to say I'm not proud of the other places I've worked. It's just this one, it has a deeper core to it. That mission is, is, is embedded in everything that we do and is so important. um And that is a, that is honestly a truly highlight for me. I, I'm constantly thinking about how to push the needle. What can we do for ah for a next idea, next campaign, or how can we make that campaign better? And I really honestly do truly love that. I think.
00:10:47
Speaker
If I was to break that down into the work that we do, all the work that we do, we're looking to have an impact. We're looking to have an impact because that impact on the consumer will drive impacts on the grounds in West Africa with the cocoa farms. So I think one of my favorite projects I've worked on so far would be it's a big campaign that we did for a new product launch little bits. So little bits was our answer to munchable snackable. So the.
00:11:16
Speaker
And um the the kind of, I'm trying not to mention their names, but the M&Ms and the Maltesers of this world. This was our answer to that kind of moment, that snackable moment.
Product Launch and Learning Process
00:11:26
Speaker
If you're familiar with our bars, some of them are quite big. We do have smaller versions, but we also wanted to make these kind of these pouches basically. And it's a really great product, some really, really great flavours and It was totally new for me. So whilst I've worked in-house for a food company, meal kits are very, very different to on shelf and in retail ah chocolate bars and chocolate products. So that learning was very, very, was just really incredible. And that journey was challenging, but rewarding. And I really, really enjoyed that. And that's what I love to do. I love to, my favorite projects have always been about learning, challenging myself.
00:12:09
Speaker
and also having impact. Brilliant. I think, you know, there's there's a bravery that comes from, as I'm sure you agree with, that comes from not being afraid to just have a go at something that you may be, you know,
00:12:23
Speaker
don't know so much about to begin with but the learning process becomes part of the work in itself which i always think is and is hugely fulfilling and the point you made about you know i think i'll be honest i think you are hugely fortunate to work for a company that just has such a fantastic north star you know it's that great check and balance does does what we are looking to do sit within that check you know that North Star if it does fantastic move forward if it doesn't think again you know not everyone has that and I think obviously agency side you have got a number of different North Stars apart from your own kind of internal barometer of is this the right thing to do but um yeah wow um and of course amazing new product coming because I think those bars are pretty big and
00:13:12
Speaker
they're quite tempting to try and finish them all in one go. So I'm glad you've found an alternative. I can. What's your favourite flavour, Ross? Do you have a favourite flavour? I ask everyone this. God, you know what? You have one that's got like almond flakes in it or something. I seem to recall. Is it the green is it a green bar? You can pack it. It's the green bar. You're not going to believe this. This is also my favourite. It's the dark almond sea salt. Is it that one? Yeah, it's it's absolutely brilliant.
00:13:42
Speaker
interesting because a lot of people usually say the milk caramel sea salt which is our absolute kind of best seller next to our standard milk standard nothing about us is standard but our milk um flavor that's the red bar so the red and the orange bars are quite often the the the ones that we talk about um but no that's interesting i always love to to hear what people what what flavors people's favorites are So yeah, snap. Yeah, like-minded. Good that we're on the call together. Fantastic. Let's get back to, I suppose, I was going to say, have you got any inspirations that as a creative lead, is there anywhere outside of your work and of course outside of chocolate that you think, you know, if you're in need of inspiration, where do you turn?
Sources of Inspiration and Creative Input
00:14:29
Speaker
So I kind of turn when I'm in need of inspiration, I tend to go for a walk.
00:14:34
Speaker
And that is my shower. So a lot of people tend to go to the shower. They have their best ideas in the shower. And actually I recently did a talk on this and some research. Actually, it's 72% of ideas come to people in the shower. Now, I don't know why that is. I'm sure there's a research study somewhere. I don't believe that. I think there's actually some, I think some cognitive scientists looked it up. But anyway, something about being relaxed.
00:15:01
Speaker
But what I like to do, and it's my favorite, this is like my word of the year at the moment, is percolating. So I like to like plant a seed if I've got like a creative problem, if I'm looking for some inspiration, I'm like, oh, I'd love some inspiration on this sort of topic. I plant a seed in my head. And then, as I said, I love this idea of it percolating and kind of just kind of milling around in there. And I tend to go for a walk on a daily basis, whether that's being whether that's dropping off my kid at daycare,
00:15:29
Speaker
which is a 20 minute walk there, 20 minute walk back, or whether it's just round the block along the canals, which is really beautiful. So it's this really nice setting. And I tend to actually come up with my ideas in that space. I think it's something to do with the relaxing setting as I've mentioned, but so that's one thing in terms of environment. So I go for walks and I just devour all information I can. i'm become I've become prolific on like LinkedIn, like I'm obsessed with it.
00:15:57
Speaker
I find it's a good place to house really interesting insights. Some of it has got a bit, you know, mean and unnecessary. We don't need to be mean about other people's creative work because we don't know what what they went through to get there. And quite often there's many, many challenges to make it that way. But what I do like about it is the articles on there, some kind of really interesting insights and people just sharing work. I read campaign drum, all these other places. It's nice that all these kind of online places as well. I have all the subscriptions.
00:16:27
Speaker
So I'm constantly being fed information, all the social sites as well. I quite like Instagram. I'm getting used to TikTok. um um Still not quite there, but I have some excellent Gen Z-ers in my team who keep me on track with all the latest trends. So I'm just kind of always, it's that hunger for more that I think I always have. And if I'm looking in a specific area as well, I might go out searching for specific themes and topics, but That's where I tend to go for inspiration in terms of trying to find new inspiration or going to art galleries, which I'm honest, like I haven't been to one recently, but just trying to look outside of the industry as well. That's really important looking what, A, what competitors are doing, but also what, what is the fashion industry doing at the moment? What's some really interesting creative in that space or what's going on over in the banking world? You know, who knows? Because there's definitely some things that you can take from there.
00:17:25
Speaker
and bring into your own playbook. So I found that quite interesting recently. And so in terms of people and in terms of work ethic, this might sound like a cliche to pick a family member, but my sister is absolutely the person I look at for that. She ah she has an autistic son and she is a pediatric, trained pediatric nurse. And now her son,
00:17:51
Speaker
wasn't able to go to, let's say, the more mainstream school. So when she had just passed and when she'd just become this pediatric nurse, he was only in school kind of one or two hours a day, if that's because they just couldn't cope with his nit with the needs that he had. So she pivoted and created her own business, um which is a natural aesthetic business. So it's basically a lot of Botox and and fillers, but in a very aesthetically pleasing way, none of this ridiculousness. And she is thriving and creating has created an amazing brand for herself and an amazing business all around the needs. And I think she's my work ethic influencer. She's the one that I think of into and when when I think of who I had a hard day today, that there's always there's always someone to kind of challenge you on that and bring you back. And she does that. she
00:18:47
Speaker
she's she's that inspiration that drives me. That's a lovely answer. three you know Three very, very different approaches. What I took from that you know family and I would always put a you know family and and you know loved ones that actually can kind of drive you on, and of course. And then there was an interesting counterplay there between you know continuing to be that sponge and soaking up as much as you can from as many different sources, kind of all at once. But then conversely,
00:19:18
Speaker
going for a walk and that isolation and just shutting everything out and just having some time to focus on one thing in a kind of a relaxing environment because I think that's that's one of the challenges that I have you know when you're able to shut out all the noise and just focus on one thing at a time and you do you have to take yourself out of that place maybe it maybe is the shower who knows yeah I'm with you I've you know a walk or a run I think yeah that works for me you are a runner, aren't you? And I, I, I actually, I stopped running. I had a problem with my knee and, and someone said to me, well, why don't you walk? And I was like, well, that's a great idea. And this was, this was before COVID had happened actually. And I just started walking and suddenly it was just like, I had these sort of, I found I was having these epiphanies and thought, well, this is great. I'm not going to stop that. and So yeah, no, it's, it's definitely a,
00:20:13
Speaker
It's definitely a good shout. Excellent. Now, in your intro, when we were talking about stepping stones, you mentioned about at some point you stepped from being agency side to client side. But I suppose in doing that, you now work with a number of different agencies on a
Importance of Diversity in Creative Teams
00:20:30
Speaker
daily basis. So can I ask you, what do you look for in a creative team within an agency? And you know how important is diversity within that team from your perspective?
00:20:41
Speaker
so fun fact on that actually. I remember being agency side and I remember there was this there was this fun thing that everyone who used to say is like oh go client side it's so much easier. I just remember that so clearly and it's such a lie. Well they still say it now. It's such a such a such a lie um I think if if it's like it's about breadth and depth and I think if the agency is a breadth some of them can get the depth but going in-house is definitely the depth you know we know our brand inside and out that is also that's a good thing and a bad thing and that's why we get agencies right to help us take off those blinkers and bring in some fresh insights and fresh thinking and I think that partnership and I say partnership because it absolutely has to be a partnership is really really important there's no one side is better there's no we're better than you we know more than you from either side I think but the marriage of those two is
00:21:39
Speaker
is wonderful as a starting point for for how we should work with agencies. But your question was also about what we look for. And I think first off, it's it's important that you look for an agency that can deliver on what you're looking for. And I think this might sound really obvious, but so many times I've worked with agencies that actually haven't been able to deliver on what we've wanted. We haven't done our due diligence, whether that be down to we haven't done our due diligence or People potentially saying they can do things that actually, but they didn't get us, they didn't, they maybe weren't philosophically aligned with us and they wanted to do strategy, not the creative. And so I think that's really key in kind of setting up your teams for success. And then in terms of actually what that team looks like, I think I see it from both sides, but you always get that, don't you? It's like, right, there's a pitch or there's a piece of work that you're working on. And the client side always say, well, we want to know who's working.
00:22:38
Speaker
We want the people in the pitch to be there. We want to see them. We want to get to know them whether or it might be a tissue session. And that's really important because we want to be able to build those relationships. So that's the reason why we ask. I've also been on the other side when I know that getting to a pitch or getting to the point where if you if we get the work, it might not be possible to have that exact creative director because of resource or they might be on another account or that it just, things just might not work. So I can see that stress from two sides. But it's so important because especially now as well within that kind of diversity lens on, because we've got to be able to A, get to know them, but also I've been in a situation where I've interviewed an agency for a project and so I'm going to be honest, it was all white men of a certain age who all had the same opinion. They all spoke the same, looked the same.
00:23:35
Speaker
And I would be worried and I was worried, but that would be what the creative would come out of it, right? You've got no additional references to what these same four men look, feel, and do. And I was struggling to really think of why I should hire them over another team that is exactly the same, but had so many different, had such a different had such a diverse group of people from different backgrounds, and different cultures, different everything. And it's a no-brainer. If you're looking for fresh, creative thinking outside the box and you know, you're always going to get that from a diverse group of people, not the people that look and act and feel it the same. i couldn't agree more Highly important is what I would say. and And I've been in that room and it's just
00:24:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it's it's it's tricky, but it's just also sad when when people send the same people to meetings, I'll be honest. That's not to say that tokenism should be a thing, by the way, because I've also seen that, where you've got tokenism at play and that's just also really, really unsavoury. So that's that's the other side. You've got to get that balance on that and that pendulum.
00:24:57
Speaker
should not be swinging too far left and too far right. No, absolutely. I mean, yourre the audience that you're looking to try and I was going to say target, target's the wrong thing to say, but you know, you're trying to inspire and and bring in to your brand, you know, that's ah that's as diverse an audience as possible. So they should be, you know, so your thinking towards how you can deliver on that needs to be um created by the most diverse audience. And, and you know,
00:25:23
Speaker
And this is the, you know, again, the middle aged white guy talking to you, which we'll come to in a minute. And, you know, who, who, who am I or we or others to presume what other people should be thinking, you know, you need, you need to, it needs to come much more from a broader bias. So, no, totally with you on that. Is that, Ross, maybe if I could ask you a question, is that something that goes through your mind when you're putting together teams from your side, agency side, do you think, ah, actually, we need a really kind of breadth of people and diverse people on this on this pitch or project or whatnot to to get that view? Yes of course and you know sometimes it's not always possible to the extent that you might like and and you know you end up having to I mean you made a really interesting point about TikTok a moment ago you know you said you're almost getting to grips with it and you've got some people in your team. Well I couldn't credibly go into a client presentation and start talking about ideas for TikTok because
00:26:21
Speaker
that it's not, you know, are not at the heart of it. So, you know, yeah we have to be quite authentic to to have the right people talking about the right type of creativity um in an authentic way. You just see straight through it and I think my role in that would be probably, to go back to one of your earlier points, is to find the right people to do the right thing and I'll be there to support them on it and and and do um find where I can be of value to them but is ultimately it's it's their creativity, it's their thinking and they should be the one that is able to present it and they should shine.
00:27:01
Speaker
couldn't agree more. Which I suppose leads us nicely into today's theme, ultimately, as this chat of
Role of Allyship in Leadership
00:27:09
Speaker
allyship. I mean, it's it's hugely important. I think it's even a word that actually some people kind of go, well, what does that actually mean? To start with, it's probably taken too long to become something that seems sort of familiar parlance. But I mean,
00:27:26
Speaker
How would you define it and have you found that it's been something that you've needed from others in your career journey so far? Yes, so to define it, how I and how i understand it is that allyship refers to actions and behaviours and practices that we as leaders take to support an advocate with others, especially especially individuals who don't potentially who don't belong to the same kind of social identity groups themselves. So it's really key and an effective ally, as I should probably explain it, would take notice and listen and seek out opportunities to learn. That's how I understand it. And that for me is really, really important because I don't begin to sit here and say, I know everything about everything. It's its in a similar way to we were just saying it before in terms of creative. I don't know everything.
00:28:26
Speaker
And it's important that I sit back as a leader, I sit back and I understand and I try to, or sorry, try to understand and absolutely seek out those opportunities to learn and educate myself so that I can better support others and advocate for others. I think one of the biggest misconceptions misconceptions of allyship is that by being a leader,
00:28:52
Speaker
and having that position that should automatically make you an ally. And I also think that it's really key that it it's not about being perfect and getting it right every time. And I've made mistakes. I will continue to make mistakes. I urge my team to call me out if I make mistakes in those in that area. And I have a very great relationship with my team that they feel that they can do that and I will absolutely listen and hear that and take note for next time. But it's also not up to them to educate me. I feel it's my duty to educate myself. And yeah, so for for example, there's ah there's a woman in my team who is taking part in Ramadan at the moment. so And so I honestly, that's the first time that I've ever had anyone on my team doing that or really understood what it actually means. And so I
00:29:48
Speaker
She told me about it and I went away and I was like, what does, what can I do to help support that? And so she told me a bit about Ramadan and what it, what she was doing and how it works and with the fasting. And I then went away and sort of, Google is a wonderful thing, but I i went away and and asked, you know, what, what is a way that I could support her?
00:30:13
Speaker
at this moment, rather than just kind of asking those of questions, which actually she's really, she's really great. And she was really happy to explain it to me as well, which I'm very grateful for. What I found was that she would maybe benefit from flexible working hours. And when I say flexible working hours, I mean literally from dusk until dawn, and rather than from seven until so four or whatever.
00:30:38
Speaker
so that to allow for that energy management that she needed to do, obviously for the fasting. So it was a really big learning for me. It still is. um It's just one example of the ways that I've try and show up and what it means as a leader. But I also generally from a female point of view as well, it's an absolute, we have to advocate for others because you've, Billie Jean King once said,
00:31:04
Speaker
You've got to see it to be it. And I truly believe that as well. And I looked around one day, I was at HelloFresh and I looked around in a meeting and I was one of probably about four women out of 60 people. And it's really lonely. I think only about kind of 17% of creative directors are women. That might just be agency side, but it's a low number that needs changing. So.
00:31:33
Speaker
For me, allyship is also about supporting women and figuring out how to put down the ladder for those to help them up it, not pulling up ladders as well. So it's there's a couple of angles there I've talked a lot. No, I know that and I think it's it's it's good and it's interesting because I was, you know, you know when we were thinking about how, you know, the sort of conversation points and something that came up when i did a little you know google search thank you google you know what are the key challenges of being an ally and the overwhelming favorite was the fear of making mistakes people tend you know they might think that they want to do the right thing but they are a little bit bound up in
00:32:17
Speaker
thinking if they make an assumption you know even if it's what they think is the right thing to do it'll be taken the wrong way and then and then you do nothing and the point that you said about you know you will make mistakes we all will make mistakes but you know we have to try and you know you think look at some of the key words that come alongside allyship and listen and learning just ah always you know they're omnippressent and we have to make sure that we are taking on as many opinions as well and then you know championing but championing in a way I think that still means that that person's voice is heard it's not like me starting to talk about it and then all of a sudden saying something it's the what's the earliest opportunity that I can almost I'm thinking recede into the background and push that person on yes it's exactly that so it's such a great way of putting it and I think just back to your earlier point about
00:33:12
Speaker
the fear of failure or the fear of that fear of getting it wrong.
Advocating for Equity and Creating Safe Spaces
00:33:16
Speaker
And I think you probably noticed in my speaking about allyship, I was really nervous about getting what I was saying wrong because I don't want to offend anyone. I don't want to, I don't want to mess it up because I'm also on a learning journey. We all are, but no one's perfect. I think as long as we've got that forward motion and the the putting ourselves out of our comfort zone to, if it is that, to get out of your comfort zone, to be able to try and support or amplify and advocate for others. And then as you said, push them to the front, bring that to light and let them shine. That's really important. And it's worth way more than, you know, getting it right every time because we we can't, no one's perfect. We're always going to get it wrong. But I think as long as the intention is there, the intention is positive and um with goodwill.
00:34:03
Speaker
I think, I think that's really positive. Great. So here's a question for you. How do you think men can support women and minority groups in the creative industries? What a question. Do you know, are you, I know, you know, it was coming. I did know this one was coming. Have you, are you familiar with the platform? Fuck being humble.
00:34:24
Speaker
Have you heard of it? I am not. Ah, okay. It's caught my attention. ah Yes. Would you believe, um, I didn't know if I was allowed to swear or not, but what a great title. it's So it's a platform and it's also a book by Stephanie sword Williams, who is absolutely brilliant in this area. And it's, it's all about, I mean, being humble and she's, she aims off her work at women. She runs a lot of workshops for women about, yeah, basically fuck being humble, ask for more.
00:34:51
Speaker
And she did this really interesting campaign for International Women's Day and she created a toolkit actually as well. So the campaign did really well, but she created this whole toolkit with templates and all sorts of people. so people could So she could support people to have that conversation in their companies as well. And the conversation was around asking men to ask for more. So the whole campaign literally was posters saying, men ask for more. And why she did that is because there was some this piece of research from the Harvard Business Review, citing that basically women do ask for more in the workplace. We kind of we yeah we ask all these questions, but we just don't receive as many yeses as men. And that in itself is wrong and not OK. And we can demand more. But her ask was, men, if you demand more, if you come along and you be our allies, if you're going to get the yeses, help us. Help us make this change. and
00:35:50
Speaker
I don't think that it's just a female or aura or yeah, I just don't think it's a female issue and i i it's it's an everyone issue. Diversity, equity, ah inclusion, it's an everyone issue. And I think if we ask, that is how men can can work. I think it's about that back back to that listening and if you spot and and watching and if you see something that you think, oh, that's not okay. or or, oh, that sounds a bit off, or I can support that, or even just speaking out and speaking up is going to be really, really important. I had a friend who, he was a he was a man and he had a baby with his wife and he started a conversation with his company because he realised from his wife going through maternity and leave and benefits and lack ah lack thereof, he realised in his own company
00:36:47
Speaker
that it was terrible or it wasn't as good as it could be, let's say. So he went off and was, and this was his agenda. He was like, I'm going to get this because, and I'm going to support and I'm being an ally and work for, for to make change. And I think that's really what men can do. It shouldn't be this way. It shouldn't be that men get more guesses, but I think it is the way it is. And so let's work with it. So.
00:37:15
Speaker
Men ask for more. Well, that's what I will be doing. And I think I already do. So and again, you know, absolutely, you know, it is tricky because obviously, you know, you you were right about the, you know, the woefully low percentage of, you know, female creative directors in the workplace. it's it's It's no good. You have to try and work out how how you can address it as as best you can. and And I suppose try and find the best way to champion those people, too.
00:37:46
Speaker
and to you know develop their careers in the best way possible. yeah you know It's interesting, i've i've kind of as I've grown through my career, it's interesting I've ah recently changed line manager um at work. you know ah And do you know what I've had of of all my, you know, bosses or people I would ultimately report into, and apart from one, they've all been female. And I've only ever had a very, very great experience about, you know, working collaboratively and working um with men and women alike. But that doesn't mean to say that I can go, oh, it doesn't apply to me. I've i've i've kind of on board. that's That's not enough. You know, I think you just have to, it probably makes you a little bit more alert to sort of
00:38:34
Speaker
some of the things that are going on that go that's not cool and then you you know you have to you have to stand up and be compelled to say something. Yeah and that's scary and that's and that's really scary too because you've also got to have a safe environment to feel like you can say something and I think that's really important as well. We've got to we've we've got to create that safe and yeah that safe space for people um ah and that in itself is is something is something else completely so
00:39:05
Speaker
there's ah There's a lot going against us, actually. I laugh, it's not funny. No, it's not. I laugh, otherwise I cry. Yes, I agree. I also wanted to touch on just a little bit off topic, you know if we can. It's interesting, because there was an article, I won't go into the details of the article, and but there was there something, was it was on LinkedIn, i think and it got picked up in some of the PR press.
00:39:27
Speaker
a couple of months ago and it was from a you know very senior person in the comms industry who wrote an article which I think after a number of years she was retiring or leaving the industry and she kind of had nothing good to say about it. you know It came across as being quite a lonely, aggressive environment and I just thought it was a really sad, sick state of affairs that you know that's what ah this industry or an industry has done to that person and and that's the impact that it's had.
00:39:54
Speaker
and you know Maybe there wasn't the people to around to support this person through probably quite a long period of time, you know many decades. if you know she get you know How sad that you get to the end of your career and that's what you want to say about you know the time that you spent in the workplace. I wouldn't want anyone.
00:40:14
Speaker
to ah to be in that position. So have to support where we can. No, that's really sad. Was it Helena Helmeson who stepped down from H and&M? was it Was it? No, I don't think it was actually. Maybe in a similar vein because I think that's the thing, right? So these these high profile women as well are kind of sort of quitting at the top of their game and giving reasons around so kind of demanding times and bringing quite abrupt ends to their career. So Helena Helmerson stepped down as chief executive of H and&M. And then we got Jacinda Adhorn as well from who stepped down as prime minister in New Zealand. And I just think and just think that was just it was just so interesting because they you're you're right, they've they've kind of made so much change. But the narrative that then came out of that was quite a negative one and not
00:41:07
Speaker
Maybe some of that was obviously what they had said as well, but it was just, I don't know. It's quite saddening to see kind of very senior women feel it feel that way. Right. Because there are, there are so many, it's just really sad. You're, you're exactly right. It's just really sad. And I think our industry has, we've got kind of two problems.
Supporting Women in Creative Industries
00:41:24
Speaker
The challenge is twofold is a getting women in, which we're doing better at, but keeping them there. And that's not so great. We're, there's this huge drop off in the middle management area.
00:41:37
Speaker
And, you know, how men can support or how we can all support each other is, is by having kind of like really clear growth plans for, for not just, not just, not just women, everyone should have this, but women specifically. And it's just having really clear growth plans, supporting, and also finding those allies. I had one ally, one ally at HelloFresh.
00:41:59
Speaker
I had two allies that were men at HelloFresh and it was brilliant. They brought such a different perspective to how I was viewing things at times and I to them. So it was a two way process. They learned different things from me that I learned from them. And it was this great, it was this great sharing of, of ways to manage and ways to handle the same challenge and One of my friends, I always, I always talk about him. His name's Alex and he's just great in moments where I, where I felt I needed that extra push. He gave me it. He also gave me some really good advice. Sometimes he would give me, he would told me his salary, which was a real no-no and still is in so many places, but he told me a salary because we're at the same level. And he just said, do with it what you want. And I just thought that was just so. Wow.
00:42:51
Speaker
yeah open and refreshing. And not that it is always about money, but the gender pay gap is obviously another thing that we're looking at. And it was, the the pay gap was quite significant. And I think that was really when it kind of dawned on me. And then actually more recently, another guy from HelloFresh, completely separate. we We only crossed over a bit at HelloFresh, but I was being, I needed some support in figuring out how much to charge for for a piece of consultancy work.
00:43:20
Speaker
I had no idea where to go to, but I knew that this guy at HelloFresh, and he still is there actually, and but but I knew that he had done a lot of consultancy work on the side. And I was literally, I just sent him a LinkedIn message and I just said, hey, how are you? No, we haven't spoken for ages, but could you help me with with figuring this out? I know that you've got experience in this area. And thinking, oh, that might be a dead end. I haven't spoken to him since I left. So that's nearly two years ago.
00:43:50
Speaker
I got an email, I got a message back within no word of a lie, 20 minutes with a full breakdown on how to charge, ah how he charges and what he thinks I should charge based on the very bit, small piece of blurb that I had given him. And look, I know this is about money that I'm talking about, but just that support and friendship there and allyship in that area was so, so appreciated.
00:44:19
Speaker
And I honestly didn't know where else to go. So I don't know what I would have done if he hadn't come back to me. I asked another girlfriend, but she hadn't she hadn't done exactly the same kind of thing. So it was really tricky. And back to your point, it can be really lonely. I've definitely felt lonely at times. It's why I started, I write a newsletter um to support women in the creative industry. And I do that partly for my own sanity and as a bit of a creative project outside of work.
00:44:49
Speaker
but mostly because it was what I needed when I was going through some difficult patches in my career. i This is the content that I would have loved to have read. red And I'm not saying that I'm the only one doing it, but I think you've got, it as I keep saying, you've got to, you've got to see it to be it. And I think if the more women as well can have those platforms, have those spotlights, get them, push yourself into the spotlight. I've got a friend at work, I keep saying,
00:45:18
Speaker
get yourself in a spotlight. You're so interesting. You've got so much to say in this area. And I just think that would just go so far for, for, for others. And I just think that, I think that's so, and so important. Brilliant. So I'm going to ask some quick focal questions. Yeah. What is next on your plan and in your, you know, where'd you see yourself Emma? What's next? So many exciting things coming up at Tony's Chocoloni. So watch this space. There's my little, uh,
00:45:47
Speaker
my little teaser ah but no personally I'm so I'm happy in the moment which I think I haven't been in a really long time and I'm just really I'm content but I'm always also looking for for new and exciting things and I really would like to see she is creative and build that out more that newsletter and what can that become I've got some great ideas there and plans and that's kind of an ever-evolving piece for me some great stuff at Tony Shuckle Only and honestly just managing this work-life blend because it's absolutely not a balance and especially like throw in a kid, I mean you know Ross, and you're a little bit ahead of me there, I'm a little bit, ah ah just a bit, but a seven month old baby plus work plus having a personal life is not something that is simple but I do have, I love this phrase that you can do anything but you can't do everything so I'm just trying to remind myself of that so yeah figuring out that work-life blend is going to be important
00:46:46
Speaker
but so far it's it's going. Excellent. And also going back to sort of allyship as well, you know, the, you know, the family support that you can get, you know, in the in the workplace, you know, and, you know, this is, this is men taking paternity leave as well. You know, I think that men having a leave of absence to share in that, but also to just not continue in the career while women take time out. So it becomes much more of a shared thing can only help as well and not become something that some you know, a career barrier. No. And you know, actually, there's this really lovely thing in them in the Netherlands where you can choose to have it's it's called a Papa dog. And Papa dog translated literally is a daddy day. So it means that there's a part of your paternity leave that a lot of men take. So rather than taking it all up front, you can what a lot of men do is take one day a week for the best part of a year, basically.
00:47:41
Speaker
So my son and my partner have a day a week together, just themselves. And it's such a wonderful thing. um That's not to say that we couldn't be better, even better with um maternity and paternity and parental care leave, but it's just a really nice start. So I'm all for Papa Doug's. Fantastic, like the sound of that. Your best piece of advice you've ever received and how has it influenced you?
00:48:05
Speaker
I've received loads of advice in my lifetime but if you the one that came to mind when I first saw this question I thought the it's it's the it's the one that I was given in my first ever job at the Future Laboratory by Gwyneth Holland who was then the editor and she was brilliant. We were going to a meeting and I remember it so clearly we were in a lift and I think we felt like we were just we're about to be like screamed at for some reason because I was clearly very nervous And she just turned to me so calmly and she just said, Emma, we don't pack parachutes. Nobody is going to die. And that is the one piece of advice that I give i remind myself of in those stressful moments. It gives me perspective. It calms me. It just helps. And, you know, we have a very familiar thing, and actually very a different version of it,
00:49:02
Speaker
ah Tony Chocoloni which is it's just chocolate and um which is which is really important and really key and so it's the one piece of advice as well that I give others. should yeah It's just chocolate but very good chocolate. It's just chocolate, very good chocolate. Absolutely.
00:49:17
Speaker
So this is a bit where you can shamelessly plug yourself if you'd like Emma, his choice is yours. i look where can Where can listeners of this podcast find you or and follow you? So it's a newsletter, I'd love it to be a podcast, that's the next step, hopefully maybe one day let's see. Let's make it happen. Yes, you can find me at shoescreative dot.substack dot.com And basically that's pretty much everywhere. And then everywhere that you see Tony Chocolone, you can think of me and buy yourself a nice bar of Tony Chocolone chocolate. That would make me very happy. I'm going to go out and get one tonight. That is my promise to you Emma. Excellent.
00:49:57
Speaker
I'll send you some, Ross. I'll send you some. Yeah, absolutely. and I'm going to call time on it now. This has been an absolute pleasure. and We've gone massively over, which I think from podcast perspective is an excellent thing to do. Yeah. But, you know, who cares? We've enjoyed it. Oh, I've enjoyed it. And I'm hopefully I can only hope that you have to. Absolutely. I had no idea of the time. So what a lovely What a lovely thing. No, it's such a pleasure Ross. Thank you so much. What um but great subjects and the great chat. Thank you. Thank you too.
00:50:31
Speaker
Thank you so much to Emma for all her fantastic inspiration and insights. We could have chatted for hours. And also a big thanks to Greg Pistol for editing the podcast and the Spark team for producing it. If you'd like to get in touch with either Emma or I, or sign up to Emma's entertaining newsletter, you can find links in the description of this episode. Thanks again for listening.