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Who is served & who gets protected when leaders only look up?
89 Plays5 days ago
When an institution says it's changing, how do you tell the difference between real reform and a vocabulary update?
Charlotte Duval-Lantoine has spent years studying organizations that adopt the language of culture change while leaving intact the structures that made change necessary in the first place.
The tells are subtler than most leaders want to believe, and they show up earlier than most are willing to look.
In this episode, Charlotte joins the show to talk about what organizational failure actually looks like from the inside, why decentralizing blame onto individual character is one of the most reliable signs an institution isn't serious about change, and why the absence of a feedback loop is the red flag most executives mistake for resistance.
The conversation moves from military culture into the executive boardroom quickly. We explore why the same pattern runs through both.
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Transcript
Integrating Technical and Human Conversations
00:00:00
Speaker
I do value people with technical knowledge. let Let's bring the softer stuff as well. We, STEM folks, ask a lot about how to to get certain things done, but we don't really understand how we can integrate them and like, should we? And I think that having in those softer conversations, maybe it's very self-serving of me to to say that.
00:00:19
Speaker
soft in in the sense of like those those are more human related questions that have not a lot to do with the with the tech, but are important question when you're dealing with all of that, because we are in a society that does love technology and innovation. And there's not always something wrong with that, but but there's often not enough questions of the should we.
Podcast Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:50
Speaker
Yo, this is Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks, the tech podcast about humans. I'm George K. And I'm George A. And our guest today is Charlotte Duvall-Lantuan.
00:01:04
Speaker
Did I say that right? said Yeah. Okay. Well... Aside from my inability to pronounce French last names, but she comes from a very interesting background and one that you might think doesn't belong on a quote unquote tech podcast. But she's a military historian. She's been studying the Canadian Armed Forces.
00:01:26
Speaker
That being said, this conversation gets super philosophical, super nerdy and goes into some, i think, very important human places, things like organizational culture, toxic leadership, performative reform versus substantive a reform, things like that. it it was wide ranging and it's weird, but in the best way.
00:01:47
Speaker
Let's not forget, we are a show since we've done our pivot away from PureSec, we have had on porn star slash sex worker slash free speech advocate. We've had on psychologists. We've had on 404 media journalists. We've had a fortune journalist.
00:02:04
Speaker
this that This was on brand.
Military Historian in Tech Context
00:02:06
Speaker
this Great. She's ah an old friend of mine from the Ottawa defense scene. a Published author has really, really stuck her neck out trying to fight the good fight for what is right in principle and doing it in an academic think tank, heavily masculine, heavily, ah we'll say politicized world.
00:02:31
Speaker
And for someone in their twenty s she's learned the game. And there again, she's a Parisian living in North America and Canada, in Ottawa, in my town. And I think that for folks who have the social sciences background, who are listeners, who know the folk, have studied anthropology of all things, we got really deep in the weeds.
00:02:51
Speaker
And, you know, who kind of look at things from the socialized angle, right? That is what ah this episode is really going to kind of quench from their standpoint.
00:03:02
Speaker
I really do like your interaction with her. it was kind of funny seeing her out like that. and guy was Real nerdy. It was big know its a nice break. We've been doing tech stuff all day. She's awesome. but and we I think we only we only said AI once. Only said once. It wasn't once at the end out of like, because we have to.
00:03:22
Speaker
Yes. Let's turn it over Charlotte.
00:03:28
Speaker
Charlotte Duvall and Lettuan, my good friend. It has been a while. Welcome to the show.
Charlotte's Role and Academic Focus
00:03:35
Speaker
So Charlotte, please describe for our audience ah how you ended up here and how you have stuff to say and what you are doing right now in the world and why it's relevant for everyone. Why did you pay attention?
00:03:48
Speaker
ah There are so many ways I can introduce myself. ah Why you should listen to me, because I'm way too French and way too stubborn and i i am loud. um But more seriously though, so let me introduce myself first by what I do. So i wear several hats. I'm the vice president of Ottawa operations and a fellow at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute. So I will not cite competing podcasts. ah Just look me up.
00:04:19
Speaker
You'll be good enough. um But basically, I've been ah with that think tank for seven years and be running all the events, podcasts, especially on the defense space ah for them.
00:04:32
Speaker
On this side, though, I am very much a researcher. um I started researching military culture ah in 2017 when I started my master's degree in military history in at Queen's University.
00:04:49
Speaker
and I am passionate about trying to figure out ah why people do the things that they do. And I take it from an angle of mostly why aren't people not being the best they can be?
Systemic Influences in Military Institutions
00:05:06
Speaker
And I take a very Rossoyan approach to it and looking at how can the context that people um live in can can shape that. and
00:05:21
Speaker
I fell in love with military history when I was in undergrad and I decided to stick to it. And and my my initial research looked at it from a toxic leadership slash gendered approach. um And now I'm very much looking at levers of institutions and and how they they influence ah behavior in in operations.
00:05:45
Speaker
um That's the nitty gritty, but um one thing that I'd like to underline in what I think is mostly misunderstood about my work and and where I find myself is i do focus on conduct, but I don't.
00:06:02
Speaker
do think that when we think about conduct, we think too much about ah discrimination or violence committed against people, especially in a military context. But i'm actually, i do think that nothing lives in isolation within an organization. And so um I have written quite a bit about the intersection between ah sexual misconduct and and procurement, how random ah that can appear. But just to underline how a system can incentivize certain ways of doing things and and to highlight to people that sometimes when we talk about defense, we think we're talking about different things, but we actually talk about the same problems.
00:06:47
Speaker
so So I will say this before George may give you this question, just for the audience to know, and this is, we'll probably reach this at some point in the episode. You are a civilian academic researcher who's a woman, who's young, who's French, in Canada, mostly Anglo country, trying to call out the military from a research-based perspective, and you've never served in uniform, you're not a veteran, you're a complete outsider.
00:07:14
Speaker
i am. yeah look For context sake, people need to understand no that's what that is that that is. That is absolutely fair. And I and i think that this is very important to to underline and why sometimes people do ask me, well, why are you
Motivations for Studying Military Culture
00:07:31
Speaker
doing this? You're a foreigner. you You've never served. And...
00:07:37
Speaker
I grew up surrounded by people who've served. ah my My grandpa, my dad have served because of mandatory military service. My brother spent one year in a military college in France, and I have... ah friends that have served in the French military and then like over the years I've made a bunch of friends ah that have served in the Canadian military and i just like i think that our military institutions are an organization that we should look up to ah but how about trying to find
00:08:14
Speaker
ways to make them the best that they can be. And I think that as a civilian, um i can do that. There's there's a perk in being an outsider, just sitting around and observing what's going on. Do I think I have the answer for everything?
00:08:29
Speaker
No, I just have thoughts. And and what I tell people is that I'm just a brain in my living room with the only danger that I'm facing is my cat trying to eat my fingers when I type on my computer.
00:08:40
Speaker
um And that's just the reality of it. I do think that that there's usefulness in in approaching the same problem from different angles. And i just want to do my part and and kind of in ah in a weird way serve the country that has welcomed me 12 years ago.
00:08:59
Speaker
No, I mean, that's a ah very fair point. It's an interesting paradox. It's also true in the States. While in principle, we believe that in Western democracies, the military should be subordinate to civilian oversight.
00:09:17
Speaker
George's point about the insider outsider is kind of one of the first things.
00:09:24
Speaker
I don't know, defenses, privileges, something ah invoked, right? yeah um And I did want to pull on the thread. You said...
00:09:36
Speaker
you are interested in why people do the things that they do and how can we be our better selves, right? And from what I understand, your work seems to argue that institutions can adopt the language of culture change without actually changing structures underneath, in this case, Canadian Armed Forces.
Identifying Real Institutional Change
00:09:56
Speaker
um Can you tell us, like, what is the tell? Like, how do you know... when you were looking at real change versus, I guess, vocabulary gymnastics?
00:10:09
Speaker
Oh man, that's tough because it's it's often happening in the long term. But let's just look at ah the example of sexual misconduct in 2021, you have the creation of Chief Professional Conduct and Culture.
00:10:29
Speaker
And there were some things that were good in there, like they're creating an organization that will be dedicated full time to ah helping change the culture.
00:10:40
Speaker
There were policies that were that were adapted, but there are limitations to that. Why? Because they're sitting outside the the general functioning of the organization.
00:10:51
Speaker
um they had they had limited power in terms of changing personnel policies, changing performance evaluation policies, which are things that I think would be if I were in this type of organization, that's what I would look at first. If I were to to change the culture of an organization, like those low hanging fruit, that that sounds innocuous, right? ah But when, if you don't take culture, if you do not take behavior and the state of your team after you, as you're about to leave it or the current state when you're about to be evaluated or promoted, i think it says something about the nature of the organization. The other tell that I'm seeing, especially in the behavior space, is when you start essentializing people.
00:11:44
Speaker
So a lot of things that we're seeing in the in the military is that if someone does something bad, it's because they have bad character. And I think that that goes way too fast to essentialize people and not leaving them the room to like know better.
00:12:02
Speaker
Or is it because they were socialized a certain way? Those are important questions. and And I think that that has been one of the biggest problem. And actually, the reason why I'm doing the PhD research that I'm doing is i was tired of hearing that argument constantly, um especially in part that character has been used against victim of sexual violence ah to shut...
00:12:26
Speaker
to shut them down, u but he's a good guy. um and and also because it's not interrogating misogyny, patriarchy, ah racism, and how it shapes behavior and how inadvertently an organization can be reinforcing those. So if you're not, if you have an organization that is not willing to like have a look at its actual processes beyond a couple of policies here and there, to me, they're There might be some change, but it would be it would be limited.
00:13:00
Speaker
I love that. um As we said before recording, i sort of use anthropology as my lens. and when Westerners would study non-Western societies, what they are looking for is to decode a culture. What are mores, norms, all these things that are not spoken of and and may not even be understood within the culture. And I think That is true. Everything from Margaret Mead to National Geographic.
00:13:29
Speaker
So it is interesting to hear you say that, but when we talk about our own in the West, that we try to essentialize down to the individual as if they act in a vacuum outside of the same kind of level of norms, mores, unspoken rules, et cetera.
00:13:46
Speaker
What I find more interesting is like I served for a long time in the culture she's she studies. And like, I've been a part of it. I know what you're talking about. I know that, you know, uh, we get chewed out by a Sergeant major whatever. And then we all go to the smoke pit.
00:14:02
Speaker
or we all go to the rink or I'll go to the gym and everyone's just talking shit about, all what a stupid talk. Like, who cares? Whatever. We're going on block leave. You know, it's like the same thing that I found with uniform, uniform light, especially when we were in active operations in Afghanistan, understand the the thinking was, and Char, I think you've probably heard this from other the people you've you've interviewed in your studies, whatever keeps the big green machine moving There's a certain line that like doesn't matter if it's illegal, right? Doesn't matter if what you're doing is out of bounds. As long as it's not publicly embarrassing to the uniform, it's going to get slipped on the rug.
00:14:43
Speaker
And that's just like, it's a known thing. i'm not I'm not whistleblowing anything. Everybody knows. Everyone lives it. we we To this day, like when you were talking about, they made the attempt, like we all make the joke to this day about, in Canada, George, we have this thing called Operation Honor that, you know, jokingly, because we're a French military, we would call Op Honor, which, you know, in French, like you don't say the and H. So it sounds like Hop Honor.
00:15:10
Speaker
And they'd like really make little bit. But the whole thing about it was honorable behavior, complaining of sexual misconduct. But then the CDS at the time was proven to have a scandal that was like a workplace relationship that was inappropriate.
00:15:25
Speaker
Right. and And other general staff had issues like that. So it's like, it's hard because when you go to your general flag officers that everyone looks up to and they're not leading by example, then how does a researcher like Charlotte who's trying to put out publications, trying to do interviews, trying to carry a certain message, it doesn't resonate with the working level troops because they know that the traditional culture can always be protected.
00:15:50
Speaker
by what I want to call the old boys club. It's not just boys. there's There's a lot of women who are reaching senior ranks who have adapted themselves to win the game. That's the same thing we see in business. Yes. But Sherry, I want to talk about like the mechanism that you previously described. Okay. I'm to pull on little bit because, you know, let's take it out of the institution of of the cath of the military.
00:16:12
Speaker
Because like George and i would agree, like it's not just unique to that. We're talking about in business, the same thing. In the civil service and government, it's the same thing. Is it fair or like, you know, am I about to flatten something that's actually specific to how that place is built? Meaning like, is this something that's just inherent to a culture of a military or are we more talking about fighting one front on a whole of society problem based on your studies and your experience?
00:16:46
Speaker
I mean, 100%, like, it's not just the military. and I, like, there's an asterisk behind that. Like...
Gendered Lens on Organizational Structures
00:16:55
Speaker
We all have ideas about who the right soldier needs to be, even if you haven't served. um We have ideas of who gets to do what in society. ah One of the biggest questions that that I've been asked this year is why aren't war more women joining the Canadian military? And um why i I asked women in return, is that something that you were told you could do?
00:17:24
Speaker
No. And I even have friends that that are going through occupational training in the military right now who have been actively discouraged from being in the combat arms, even though they wanted to. It's because like, well, you sure it's going to be hard? And so like when you face like those, and and like this is just an example, there are stuff that are a little bit more more pernicious, if I can put it that way. But all of that to say that like,
00:17:53
Speaker
We still have very gendered ideas on how we organize society. um it it hasn't gotten better. in like for on certain parts of the internet, it hasn't even gone worse.
00:18:08
Speaker
and Yes, we seem to be ah regressing in many places. oh i i was going to ask, to this to this point, just an example to make it real for people. Have you ever heard, like, I never heard of it, like, i outside of some basic, like, reserve cyber stuff.
00:18:24
Speaker
um When I left, like, more active, like, service stuff, even from a reserve standpoint, post-leaving the Red Force, we had never seen a woman actually make it JTF2 as a door kicker, as a proper tier one operator. Yeah.
00:18:38
Speaker
Has that changed?
00:18:42
Speaker
I am not sure, actually. i don't I don't think so. and But like there's ah there's also the part of like, so that one is one of my maybe more um more controversial takes that that I've made in public. Yeah.
00:19:02
Speaker
But it's like when we talk about training for quote unquote elite military units or even for the, for, for the military, um, like,
00:19:16
Speaker
We use very male-based standards, like standards that are based on male strength. um So we're going to look at things that are more pure strength, more upper body strength. And we have not interrogated, are we recognizing women for their unique physiological strengths, like women,
00:19:39
Speaker
actually, like, you you get a better ah better leveling between men and women in ultramarathon. Because women tend to be a lot more insurent. And we don't think about could it be effective in operations because someone tells me, like, i have this conversation um and and someone tells me, well, we we need someone to be able to, like, pull themselves up during ah an operation like if they like hang on a wall or stuff like that. And I'm like, sure, like I'm not denying that. ah But if that person is by themselves,
00:20:19
Speaker
there's a bigger problem. um and And two, adrenaline does wonder on your body. And three, when you look at certain exercises, form is actually what really matters for you to be able to do them and for them to count. I don't think that like you're if you have to do a push up with your rapsack on you, your your chief warrant officer is going to check if you had the perfect form. So there needs to be a little bit of nuance in all of that. And and I think that this is where um this is why I'm personally interested in in deconstructing all of this is not to necessarily to say,
00:20:57
Speaker
Because I think it goes beyond the um the gender divide, but saying like, are we actually looking at the right physical skills to have a diversity of people that like can be as fit as they can be? And what does it mean to be as fit as you can be in an operation?
00:21:12
Speaker
and And one last thing is that, again, to go back to the point you made previously, George, is is the fact that there's a larger societal issue of I mean, when when did you guys started lifting weight for the first time?
00:21:29
Speaker
I was in my twenty s High school. a Yeah, high school. See, like, like before be so before then, like, and and it's I started lifting weight because I started boxing.
00:21:44
Speaker
And it is then that it was like, well, you need to get that. You need to get that done because like, if you want to have good power in the ring, well, you need to lift weights and you need strength and conditioning. But before that, it was never something, never something that was that was floated to me.
00:22:01
Speaker
based on your experience, either in academia or in civil service, have you seen parallel examples of this type of discrimination that limits, you know, other safe space or career progression for individuals?
Biases Against Marginalized Groups
00:22:17
Speaker
I mean, marginalized individuals. I don't want to just make it a gendered issue, but marginalized individuals. Let me count it out.
00:22:22
Speaker
I mean, there's...
00:22:26
Speaker
It's always very difficult to so to say when when you're you're witnessing those things um because like there's always a reason. ah But research and...
00:22:40
Speaker
um And like other women that I've talked to, like you get accused of being too loud. your credentials always questions. women um Women and people of color tend to be infantilized. So um like you you see women and people of color in their mid to late 20s are being told that they're too young to be ambitious or that they're too ambitious for their age. But then you see like a a white person usually male at the same stage and they are advancing and their age is being celebrated instead of being liability.
00:23:19
Speaker
of being a libidity um Black women tend to be labeled as too loud and too aggressive. um When a woman is assertive, she tends to be a bitch. and Yes. And all that kind of stuff. I think i it it is well known at this point. And and and it's like in certain ways, it's become pernicious because we found justifications for it. ah But there's still like those...
00:23:48
Speaker
those politics, like those tone politics, I think black women ah talk about, that is to tone policing, where it's like there is only one way of of of doing things and way is very...
00:24:06
Speaker
male and and white. and ah and And then one final thing, I will give you a little example of how you can effectively shut this down ah and in a male-dominated environment. So it was February 2017. had been hit by a car about two years prior to that. And I decided to go back to my boxing gym because i was losing my mind not being able to work out.
00:24:32
Speaker
And my coaches were very, very super conscious about ah me not overdoing it and making my injury worse. We had just found out that my humerus had been broken. Yes.
00:24:44
Speaker
And i i was doing push-up on my knees. And there was a man in that class, like maybe in his late 30s, early 40s, and i I was just 20 at the time, ah started doing push-up on his knees as well.
00:25:04
Speaker
And my coach said to him, what the hell are you doing? This man stood up and pointed at me with his glove and whined that I was doing push-up on my knees.
00:25:17
Speaker
And because my my coaches like usually don't let you do pushup um push-ups on your knees. and And the guy was like, you're letting off her off the hook because she's a girl and stuff like that. And my coach just responded, go get hit by a car. We'll see in two months if you're able to do push-ups.
00:25:35
Speaker
i i I am just pissed and offended on many levels. Yes, it's just so asinine. Why are you looking at her?
00:25:46
Speaker
Push the fuck up. Yeah, no. Asinine. But to me, like, you know, when I talk about the military and and all that kind of stuff, a lot of people are thinking that I'm there to... um that I'm there to just point the finger and criticize. But what this boxing gym, shout out underdog in in Montreal, um what they've shown me is that you can be in like sweaty, hyper-masculine gym environment. We were working out in a basement in the summer ah without AC. It's like Cobb style. It was so raunchy and it's my favorite place in the world. And like my coaches like...
00:26:31
Speaker
understood gender differences between their athletes, but they were asking us to push as hard as we as we could, and that's what mattered to them. And and it didn't matter whether you were a man or a woman, if you were working your ass off and you wanted it enough, you deserved, like everyone deserved respect, regardless of why they joined that boxing gym for, whether it was just fitness or to learn the sport.
00:26:58
Speaker
But they would like see that potential in you and support you. And like they I couldn't see any differences between men and women on that front in the way that they treated us. And to me, that was such a particular, like such a formative example of being like, yes, male dominated environment, hyper masculine environments can be healthy.
00:27:21
Speaker
They just understand what they are and what they stand for. And that's also an example of living. Let me interrupt. to they so It seems like when you say what they stand for, the distinction is that that quote unquote stand for is in a principle rather than a visible performance.
00:27:45
Speaker
So i was I was about to say the value that they preaches also preached is were also the values that they were ah embodying on a day-to-day basis. And yeah that's what made it such an amazing place to be. um I haven't been in that gym like to work out in in like seven years.
00:28:07
Speaker
But man, i i remind I remember this place as like the most respectful environment I've ever been. and it's been and And I still consider it like a home outside of my own home.
00:28:39
Speaker
that's ah That's a really good story.
Leadership Failures and Structural Issues
00:28:41
Speaker
I think it takes us back ah to where we started, which is this idea of the intention to reform or the intention to embody some set of values versus the that the actual. um And I guess, given your research, I want to explore that gap you know between the language and the substance a little bit more.
00:29:02
Speaker
You said at the beginning, ah You said the words toxic leadership. So I guess, have you seen this as a leadership failure? Is it an incentive failure? Is it something structural that's more organic? That's kind of like emerges ah given a critical mass of of certain behaviors. Where is that gap?
00:29:25
Speaker
So ah in maybe two years, if i'm ah If I'm lucky enough, I'll be able to answer that question more fulsomely. um I find that there are issues in the concept of failure of leadership because to me, there still remains the question of how did that failure of leadership happen?
00:29:50
Speaker
And usually, if you start asking that question, you start seeing the structural issues. ah There's a problem of incentive. There's a problem of maybe proper punishment. There's a problem of internal selection. um And that's essentially what my PhD is to uncover, is how do do those things work?
00:30:12
Speaker
what it Because also sometimes when we're looking at processes, we are very much, and that's what I'm going to be doing for the next, how many years I have left on on that PhD, don't tell my supervisor I said that, um of of digging through documents and looking at policies and and you think that the policy is exactly what's happening. Right.
00:30:36
Speaker
But they are informal practices that take place. And George, you mentioned that earlier of like that that discrepancy. And what I want to understand that.
00:30:50
Speaker
how that discrepancy exists and can it be moved structurally? And how can leaders be better at understanding where they can find themselves and also questioning why they don't always get the results that they want? um and And I would like to add, in in fairness to the military, I find that the the responsibilities for leadership are very high. But I'm questioning the extent to which they get the foursome training that they need to have to be...
00:31:26
Speaker
the leaders that they need to be, like not only at a personal level, but particularly at at an institutional level. um Because there seems to be a misunderstanding of all of those. and like Mind you, like some some of those things that i've that I've noticed or that I noticed in my research is not just because of my research, it's also because I've been in therapy for eight years. And that creates skills of observing certain things. Observing discrepancies between your own behavior and what you say you want your behavior to be. And and that takes a lot of time. That takes ah a lot of work that I don't think we're we we are training people on, unfortunately. and it's It's basically like I do think that structures are important, but I'm not going to say that, you know, there's providence in the structure in the sense of like predeterministic, that structures shape behave everything. It's like how does that ah conflict and and interact with with someone's ah personal psychology
00:32:32
Speaker
Or the way that they view their own value set and how they view themselves within that value set and the structure in which they find themselves. Yeah, i I agree with that. i also want you said to think back to like leadership training I went through, which would have been primarily been like.
00:32:50
Speaker
You know, 2000, 2007. two thousand and seven Yeah. So I joined in 05, 2007 to like 2010 to 2012. So both academic RMC and then through like the system and doing like the PLQ and all that stuff.
00:33:06
Speaker
Um, and then even my trades training, like you, you learn the things you have to learn from a curriculum level. But the culture back then, I think would have been far more unacceptable than what the culture is today.
00:33:24
Speaker
hey I think the things that we went through back then, like worse than change parades, which are like, they form you up in front of a building where the barracks are, and they yell at you to go get changed from one type of uniform to another in an impossible amount of time, and it's chaos.
00:33:40
Speaker
Or, you know, they'll go through your barracks and just rip through all your stuff and yell you and scream and insult you. You know, someone had a speck of dust on them during inspection, so everyone gets beasted, right? We were called to get beasted.
00:33:53
Speaker
And, you know, I don't, I don't think the days of us getting sent to Petawawa, Petawawa is this horrible training base in Ontario in a desert.
00:34:06
Speaker
Or they used to hang tires before a training exercise so they'd collect water in them. So they'd collect still water that mosquitoes would gather and grow before an exercise. So they'd really piss people off, right, before people actually ended up going there. like ah Because I don't know, George, if you've ever gone camping, if you're ever in a position where you're forced camping and there's that one skeeter in your tent and you can't see anything, know you hear the buzzing.
00:34:31
Speaker
Yes. That will drive you insane. Right? Especially when you're already not not eating much and you're, you're but as we call sleep fucked. You're quite sleep deprived. So it's just funny to see the evolution of leadership training and the culture of what is and isn't acceptable. So think you you hit on a lot of points there. was bit triggering.
00:34:49
Speaker
But going back to kind of what we were talking about in terms of the institutional approach, what's the earliest moment in a project where you can already tell that that project is really only there to serve the people who commissioned it, their careers, their reputations, their egos, and so the people who are actually stuck using it?
00:35:09
Speaker
Huh.
00:35:11
Speaker
That is a very good question. um
00:35:18
Speaker
I'm stumped.
00:35:22
Speaker
I guess it's vibes. um You know, i mean, like... i i like for the For the type of work that that you guys are are doing, i'm i' I'm going to assume that you need to be freaking observant. And i think that that when you talk to the leadership of, like, at the head of a specific initiative or anything like that, you kind of can smell the BS.
00:35:54
Speaker
You know? is... it is that I never had a very good opinion of Operation Honor.
00:36:04
Speaker
And i kind of couldn't say why or aside from the fact that it was like Like, okay, you put you put leaflets in bathrooms saying, like, don't be a meanie. That's not going to do much.
00:36:20
Speaker
but but i But I do think that you can, like, sometimes you you can feel the the the the hypocrisy. um and And maybe to to talk to that.
00:36:32
Speaker
So I started my master's degree in Kingston in 2017. So it's about... About a year after Operation Honor started, and also a little bit after ah the the chief of the defense staff at the time is subject to target to reach 10%, 25% of women within the military by within 10 years. So spoiler alert, we're 10 years in and we the the purport it's It increased by 1% within that decade. our Hard fail, bro. It's not great. damn i I have thoughts about this. There are there are also societal issues we as we talked earlier.
00:37:21
Speaker
But one of the things that would always happen when I when i met officers is... you're a woman, why don't you join the Canadian military? And I was like, oh damn, I feel valued for my skill set.
00:37:33
Speaker
um You really want me because you think I'm going to bring something to the organization beyond my gender. Wow. um And there was like no trying to sell me the military or anything like that. It was like, well, we're meeting at a defense conference and you're a woman, join the military. And I'm just like...
00:37:53
Speaker
Well, at the time, i didn't even have a permanent residency. And even if I had, it was not the time that that Canada let permanent residence in.
Awkward Military Recruitment Efforts
00:38:02
Speaker
but But it was very interesting of being like, is that your recruiting technique for young women? Because...
00:38:11
Speaker
man, like ah late millennials, early Gen Z are not going to be good with it. and And it was awkward. It was awkward because then you had to justify yourself to those people that are like colonels and brigadier generals as to why you don't want to do it. And then the only reason is like, well, we need more women.
00:38:32
Speaker
Well, yeah, Charlotte, why don't want to fight fear and fight chaos? Slay the dragon. and I have antidepressants for that, like one battle at a time. Well, i so i I want to sort of I'm going actually do that thing where I ah interview my co-host without him knowing I was going to interview him. but Plot twist. Yeah.
00:38:55
Speaker
Yes, plot but I was wondering, George, if you think, so there is a reason the military is structured the way it is. Obviously, very hierarchical in an operational capacity. You can't decide by a committee. You make decision. Yes, understood. However, I feel like much of that structure has been mistranslated to business environments.
00:39:19
Speaker
So going back to George's question about like, Where can you tell a project is going to serve the people who are kickstarting it versus the people who will actually have to do it?
00:39:31
Speaker
In this context, we've been talking about the military, but I feel like that's the question about this AI shit all over the place, right? One person at the top is reading CNBC headlines and is like, oh my God, AI is a thing, and directs it straight down without realizing they are not a brigadier general.
00:39:47
Speaker
They do not run a platoon. They are part of an organization that is not military in nature and not operational saying in the same capacity. Anyway, that's the question for you, George, as business executives.
00:39:59
Speaker
But george George, before you jump into that, I'm actually going to take prerogative as a guest. I guess we do have guest prerogatives. Yeah, we do now. Yeah, yeah. I take it. um Told you that I had too much to say and was is way too loud. um well it's It's interesting because what the military, especially in Canada, would respond to you, George, is that what we're seeing right now is because the military has been civilized too much.
00:40:34
Speaker
We can dig deeper on that if we have the time, but ah other George, over to you. Well, no, I mean, you're not wrong. um But yeah, like in the corporate world, especially in tech, it's like you can look at it as from from the ownerships and the boards and the private equity and CEOs or shareholders and bla blah, blah, blah.
00:40:55
Speaker
They'll come down and say, we're going to AI everything. You're like, okay, well, how do we determine ROI? What's the business case? What's the use case? What are we doing? And then it's just like, we don't care. Just do it. And you're like, okay, but spend's going to go through it.
00:41:07
Speaker
We don't care. And then you do it because they tell you to. And they're like, we got to cut budget. We got cut staff. yeah But you, but you, you do this. You do that. What a clown rodeo, man. What clown rodeo. Thankfully, like I work with like really good people.
00:41:22
Speaker
especially at the day job, right? And so like, we're looking at like AI implementation and the biggest question I've raised, because I'm on that governance committee, I'm like, cool, have we figured out cost estimation for tokens and agents, right? And so like, thankfully as a CISO, like everything has to get signed off by me. And I'm like, I am not, this to me isn't like a security risk. This is me as as a business leader being like, can we not do this until we know how much it'll cost because I don't want to have to keep going through layoffs because our owners made all of our funds on tokens.
00:41:58
Speaker
with Without a thing that they, but maybe not the local, law this is a big problem my I have in tech and and Char, I think you've probably seen this. They're really good at hiding it in the military and the public service, but it still happens.
00:42:11
Speaker
There's an executive who's very influential. They built their own little empire and people in the military and in the civil service love building little empires themselves. And they'll have a deal with one or a couple other vendors.
00:42:22
Speaker
Right? And and in in the cyber world, we had a cyber start scandal few years ago. And that was like a big issue with CISOs basically getting bribes to buy certain products, whether or not that product was actually the correct one for their organization for the problem they're trying to solve.
00:42:38
Speaker
They were getting money and benefits off of spending time promoting these companies and buying their products. Right. That to me is the peak of executive level malpractice and poor ethics.
00:42:55
Speaker
Like short of like and it might be a little bit like short of like harassing subordinates or that kind of thing or or some kind of assault issue. If you are taking the trust an organization has given you. And your job as ah as a leader, especially a senior leader, is to protect your people and then empower them.
00:43:11
Speaker
But you're pocketing and enriching yourself and giving them this dog shit tool. And then you're probably going to bail out as soon as the implementation's done. to your next job because they've helped you out.
00:43:22
Speaker
That's a racket. That's a scam. And that is a thing that happens to this day with a lot of executives. And George, you know them. I know them too. i know them. That is, that to me is, is you brought that up, George. I'm like, yeah, dude, our industry is full of corruption.
00:43:39
Speaker
It's a horribly corrupted industry. Half of why I hate security is why it's it's that corrupt. i i Yeah, i I think you bring something that ah that I should have um mentioned.
Traits of Toxic Leadership
00:43:50
Speaker
But, George, like the example that you're using is one of the toxic types of toxic leaders.
00:43:58
Speaker
Like someone that is only upwardly focused and and only like tries to advance themselves. Like that's considered in in organizational culture,
00:44:10
Speaker
um literature, ah it is recognized as a toxic leadership. and And down in the States, actually, the literature on toxic leadership talks a lot about about that kind of those kind of leaders.
00:44:23
Speaker
um I love the fact that you brought AI because I have so many thoughts about this. ah but But, you know, like the the lack of feedback loop is Tells me a lot. and And the lack of monitoring mechanism, I think, is is where like you can see the red flags, if I can put it this way. It doesn't mean that it's necessarily all bad, but that's that's where I look at is, okay, you have a strategy.
00:44:56
Speaker
What are you going to do to monitor that? What is your plan? if it doesn't work out the way you want. Are the people be below you telling you why they are unhappy with the change or they won't like to complain about like companies like spending a shit ton of money on on AI for most people not to use it and people say oh it's resistance to change and I'm like have you thought about the fact that you're asking them to do twice as much with an agent that is not very good at it and so on top of redoing the work they need to manage that agent
00:45:36
Speaker
That's a lot of work. That's a lot of work that we're not anticipating, but we think of all of this as resistance when it might just be, it's not fit for purpose.
00:45:46
Speaker
Do you actually need AI as to where you are? do you Does like changing the the policy on the duty um duty to report actually the the change that you need to make so that you can overcome certain behaviors. i that's to me To me, that's like that feedback loop if it's missing and if there's no plan to change the plan, um once you get like you get unintended consequences, for me, for me it's a red flag.
00:46:19
Speaker
But now, ah with all of that being said,
00:46:24
Speaker
It doesn't mean that the intent of those people is to just like like grow such a massive head that they cannot exit the door. Right. It's not, it's not a way always that careerist, um, you know, don't assume, uh, malice when it can be explained by, and and by incompetence, not saying that, that, that malice is not there in certain cases.
00:46:50
Speaker
But again, like, and I don't think that that's just a military problem. Like, um, Being a manager is very hard. ah Being the leader of an organization while managing people is very hard. And so are we actually equipping people to be able to face this issue?
00:47:12
Speaker
this kind of discount of challenge, or are we just like rewarding them with with little treats, promotion or bonuses, and therefore they think only in one way and not as strategically as they should?
00:47:27
Speaker
and And then we'll go back we're kind of like going back to that like turtle all the way down situation of yeah um is it the system or is it the people? The answer is both, but what can you do from there?
00:47:42
Speaker
No. um I want to, you said something about upward facing leadership.
Anthropological Insights on Leadership Roles
00:47:52
Speaker
Yeah. And it reminded me, I'm going to do it.
00:47:55
Speaker
ah I'm sorry, listeners. I will invoke anthropology again because I just can't help myself. So I don't know if either of you are familiar with Melanesian culture is like the big man system, right? This is a ah seminal thing that we all study in anthropology 101.
00:48:12
Speaker
So when the West encountered Melanesian tribes and the big man is sort of the leader of the village and has all the regalia and usually has multiple wives, et cetera, we saw that as a chief and it's commonly depicted in racist cartoons, et cetera, right?
00:48:31
Speaker
But once we studied it, what we actually found, and the reason it was called Big Man versus a Chief, is because big man was there kind of viewed as the most capable person in social, economic, political context, but was essentially there at the behest of the villagers. And his responsibility was to appropriately distribute resources on islands, right? Finite resources.
00:48:59
Speaker
And once big men got to the point where they thought of themselves as chiefs, They typically end up getting killed ah like because, again, there's the unspoken social contract was you get this position of authority as long as you are redistributing and and making sure that we all get what we want ah to survive and and thrive. Anyway. Yeah.
00:49:23
Speaker
That's a hell of a tangent, but i I feel like it's relevant to what you're saying because if you think about a company, ideally what you're doing, you are at the behest not just of your shareholders but also of your employees. I think we've probably lost the plot on that a little bit.
00:49:39
Speaker
But – um Charlotte, I want to thank you again for coming on and shut short notice. We are constantly on the road and and and we didn't give you a lot of time. And also we invited you on a tech podcast, but this was an an incredible conversation.
00:49:54
Speaker
So thank you. Oh, thank
Conclusion on Tech and Human-Centered Integration
00:49:56
Speaker
you so much. it was it was really fun. And yeah, I do think that even though we didn't really talk about tech right now, um as ah someone who I was telling you guys earlier, as someone who grew up in a family of of STEM folks, um i and I do value people with with technical um with technical knowledge, um let's Let's bring the softer stuff as well. ah We, stamp folks ask a lot about the, like how to to get certain things done, but we don't really understand how we can integrate them and like, should we? And I think that having in those softer conversations, maybe it's very self-serving of me to to say, not sure I care at this point, but- Well, I would push back, maybe it's not so soft.
00:50:48
Speaker
Maybe it's a hard requirement. oh it's ah But soft in the sense of like, it's not like you can, it's a question of perspective, like soft in the in the sense of like, those are more human related questions yes that have absolutely not a lot to do with the with the tech, but are important question when when you're dealing with all of that, because we are in a society that does love technology and innovation. And there's not always something wrong with that, but but there's often not enough questions of the should we? And if we if we do it, like, what is the best way to do it ah in order to truly improve ourselves?
00:51:32
Speaker
and And what does it mean to improve ourselves as in that sense? Super philosophical. Love it. Love it. enough Awesome. Well, thank you again, Charlotte. And we hope to talk to you soon.
00:51:45
Speaker
Likewise, guys. Thanks so much.
00:51:49
Speaker
All right, let's leave with you with some questions. i am gonna try to keep it very simple. to To quote ah Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park, just because you can doesn't mean you should, right? So really just let's get back to like the Aristotelian ethics and just thinking about these tech decisions or these organizational business decisions.
00:52:10
Speaker
There is the can and there is the should, and I feel like we're not spending a lot of time on that should piece. Yeah, I think think the biggest thing as well is just understanding like what what the the cultural implications are of changes in certain decisions. And I think rushing towards adoption on newer novel concepts without taking the time to step back and seeing what all the consequences are on you know societal, cultural, institutional, financial levels.
00:52:41
Speaker
That is a misstep that is going to continually harm and damage organizations and communities of people. And I think you know the question that i would leave people with is, is this going to be a return on investment for us as stakeholders?
00:52:58
Speaker
Or are we just helping enrich shareholders who want us to do these things that don't make sense to us?
00:53:06
Speaker
All right, we will leave you with that and we will see you next week.
00:53:13
Speaker
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00:53:26
Speaker
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00:53:40
Speaker
you know what's funny is I never actually pronounced your last name fully. Duval Antoine? That's good. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I don't know. what yearss I've never said your last name, dude. look folks