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73. 'Use Your Illusion I' - Guns N' Roses (1991)
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In 1991, Guns N’ Roses brought in a new drummer and keyboard player and, in an ambitious and confident statement to the music world, released ‘Use Your Illusion I & II’ on the same day. Following immense anticipation from the Rock world, ‘Use Your Illusion’ impressively spans multiple styles and genres; including: Rock, Blues, Metal, Punk and Classical elements - veering away from their dedicated, established Hard Rock sound of previous releases.
In this episode, we take a dive into the mindset of GnR with these monumental releases and focus on the first of these two albums and ask if this is Guns N' Roses' most impressive and extensive album!
Episode Playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5lo3G5i893LLwDU6brfLcO?si=a68829af62634933
LONG LIVE ROCK ‘N’ ROLL
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Long Live Rock and Roll Podcast.
Ambition of 'Use Your Illusion I and II'
00:00:15
Speaker
In 1991 Guns N' Roses brought in a new drummer and keyboard player and, in an ambitious and confident statement to the music world, released Use Your Illusion 1 and 2 on the same day. Following immense anticipation from the rock world,
00:00:30
Speaker
Use Your Illusion impressively spans multiple styles and genres, including rock, blues, metal, punk and classical elements, veering away from their dedicated, established hard rock sound of previous releases.
Is it Guns N' Roses' Most Impressive Album?
00:00:43
Speaker
Joining me to discuss the first part of this double album is my co-host, Mr Felipe Amorim. How you doing, bro? Doing great, man. I hope everyone's been staying out of trouble lately. I'd imagine so, yeah.
00:00:55
Speaker
Do you know what? So let's just crack on. I'm going to ask you straight away because these are the thoughts I've had from doing my research on this album. Is this Guns N' Roses most impressive album?
00:01:07
Speaker
I would say yes, I would say yes. The combination of the two, I would say. That's what I mean, both of them. You've got to consider that there's quite a lot of songs in both albums and if you piece those two together and pick the best songs, yes, it's definitely their most ambitious project and the best executed, I would say.
Release Strategy and Chart Success
00:01:29
Speaker
two hours 30 minutes across both albums. It's nuts isn't it? The thing they release it like that in order to get like two platinum albums instead of just one because you could have released as one double album right this and I think for the chart accounts like one and they just say fuck it let's do like two separate albums. A tricky way into the charts yeah but you know it's a clever thing anyway you know it is and it did well in the charts didn't it I mean you know 685 000 copies sold in the first week
00:01:58
Speaker
five and a half million overall. And this is just number one, by the way, you know, number two has its own statistics. But some interesting facts I was reading is that this is the first time ever that a band has had two albums enter the US charts in number one and two.
Album's Diverse Genres
00:02:14
Speaker
Oh, wow. Well, because think about it. Yeah. Who did that before? I mean, obviously, some bands had two albums that were like in the charts at the same time, but not released on the same day, isn't it? Yeah, that really facilitates things. Also, it proves that both albums are great.
00:02:31
Speaker
like it's like if we had all the good songs in one of them then maybe the other one wouldn't make it to the charts so i think there's a there's a lot of merit in releasing two albums at the same time yeah and having both of them on the charts that's impressive i agree with that um which one was number one by the way was it this the second album uh yes i think it was because it had the hit single on you could be mine
00:02:55
Speaker
And that's the one that performed well. So I think Use Your Illusion 2 went to number one and then number one stayed at number two, ironically. Talking of double albums, I mean, it is... Let's just talk for a second about the ambition and confidence that they had within themselves about this album to have the balls to come out and just put both albums out on the same day. I mean, what are your thoughts on that?
00:03:21
Speaker
Well, first of all, you've got to believe you've got a lot of great songs. And second, you've got to trust that the musicians who are working with you are capable of being creative throughout a whole album or two albums in that sense. Even when you get great songs, you still need good musicians to perform them to a high level and make sure it never gets boring because that's the problem with long albums.
Recording Process Across Multiple Studios
00:03:51
Speaker
they tend to get boring at some point and some songs might be too long, etc. But I think, and listening back to the album, I think they achieved a
00:04:01
Speaker
I don't know, a good level of variety. It's quite diverse in terms of ballads and acoustic and heavy. And there's all those elements you've mentioned in the beginning, like punk, and then you can even add country to that. I don't know if that's something else. Country, blues, classic rock, hard rock, you have all of that. And that helps the album to not get boring, you know,
00:04:25
Speaker
I would say at any point you know some of the songs maybe they are fillers but still it's all really well played probably their best produced album so yeah I think there's a lot of ambition in there and but I don't know if Axl Rose was the one who came with the concept or whatever but they thought it through I don't think it's something done I think they had something to prove I think it took a while from the second album to this one for them to release something
00:04:53
Speaker
Oh yeah, three years I think. Three years. But I think it's their most ambitious project and their best albums might be. So just a bit of information about the album. So it was released September 17th 1991. Now this is the crazy part, recorded between January 13th 1990 and August 3rd 1991.
00:05:13
Speaker
So that's one year and seven months. Now this probably explains it recorded at many different studios across LA and Hollywood, including A&M, Record Plant, Studio 56, Image Recording and Conway, as well as the Metalworks Studio in Ontario, Canada. The album clocks in at one hour and 16 minutes and it was released through the Geffen label and the producers were Mike Clink and Guns N' Roses themselves. Now that
00:05:42
Speaker
that recording time, January 1990 to August 1991. Now I was reading a bit about the background and half of the songs, I did choose, we discussed this morning, didn't we, about doing one out, you know, just one or both of them.
00:05:59
Speaker
and we decided that we did just do one of them for now because for our listeners that don't like Guns N Roses we don't really want them to have to do two weeks of episodes they don't like and also it sort of gives us a break to do something else and we can do number two another time but just know listeners and viewers that you know when we are talking about this recording process and the writing process we are talking about both of the albums and I think what this is going to allow us to do is this episode will be a certain kind of episode where we're talking about
Song Origins and Complex Arrangements
00:06:25
Speaker
broader ideas about the albums and then maybe next time when we do Use Your Illusion 2 we can just get more involved in each of the songs perhaps you know nice different dynamic to it but anyway yeah so what we're hearing is that half the songs from this from these albums weren't even done before they had to head out on their world tour in 1990
00:06:45
Speaker
So apparently they were recording lots of songs in various studios around America when they had days off. I think, yeah, I think there might be one student in Canada, but most of it in LA, several different studios, like whenever they were available to go into a studio and record bits and pieces of a song. And some of the songs were written before the first album, including November Rain. That was written in 1983. So that's quite an old song. I think they even had a different lineup at the time.
00:07:14
Speaker
and I mean before the classic lineup, the first lineup that recorded an album together. So they said to Axel Rose and
00:07:25
Speaker
easy writing those songs back in the day. And some of them were kind of unfinished or they didn't think they were good enough. Now with time and money in your hands, then you can produce songs the way you want. I think that's the reason why they got back to those songs. Also, as I said, they're about to hit the road. The album was not finished. And you start just like looking for whatever pieces of composition you have anywhere and then try to make something out of them. But I think overall they did a great job with the song.
00:07:57
Speaker
I mean the recording time just goes to show how ambitious it is and I think if they knew they were going into a double album recording process then you're going to put aside a lot of time, effort and money to make this work.
00:08:09
Speaker
Now, why would the recording time take so long? Well, you've got an ambitious vision to do two double albums that we're going to release on the same day. You've got complex arrangements because these songs, compared to their previous two albums, they're a lot more complex, aren't they? Not necessarily progressive in that sense, but longer songs, more structural changes. I wouldn't go as far as progressive and time signatures or unusual this, that or the other.
00:08:34
Speaker
But just the songs were longer in length, aren't they? You hear from November Rain and Coma as well. But there are some Frog Rock concepts in it, like they have a three-part song, right? Which is a thing, November Rain, Don't Cry, and what's the other one? Live and Let Die.
Band Lineup Changes and Impact
00:08:51
Speaker
I know it's a cover, but that that was almost three parts, isn't it? Oh, yeah. No, no, but I mean, there's like three songs in the album that were written or intended to be like, oh, I see. Yeah. So the other one, the other one is a strange, strange, the second hour. Yes. Yes. So yeah. So yeah. So those those songs were designed to be like three parts of a song. Actually, there's an interesting story about that. Matt Sorum, the drummer who joined the band for this album, he got criticized by before playing the same drum fill.
00:09:20
Speaker
all the time and those three songs actually he did a lot of november rain so it is an iconic film right i can probably play hill my if you can't see it that's okay we can we can hear the thump yeah
00:09:38
Speaker
But yeah, so basically this is the feel that he plays and he plays a lot in those three songs. I think some people, some drummers criticize him for that, like including Mike Bortner. I'm not sure if I'm right about this, but I read that he said, oh, you know, that's not very creative or repeating the feel, whatever.
00:09:56
Speaker
But as a matter of fact, he said he wanted the field to be repetitive and the same. And he was an accomplished session musician and touring musician at the time. So I think the two additions they had to the band, Matt Sorum and
00:10:13
Speaker
Dizzy Reed, the piano player, keyboard player, they actually took them to another level in terms of technique and performance and because they're really like proper, let's put it like that. I want to say proper musicians, I mean, but what I mean is like sometimes with rock bands you have your friends who are playing
00:10:33
Speaker
with you, you know, in the school or whatever, and you end up becoming a big band and famous, but some of those guys had no previous experience, they're just doing it. And what happened with Stephen Adler, the first drummer, he was a really good drummer, but
00:10:48
Speaker
And he did some epic recordings like Switch Out of Mine, and you can't take the merit away from him for being one of the most iconic rock drummers, but he had some serious drug issues.
00:11:04
Speaker
and well when the moment the hacks of rose thinks you're taking too much too much too much drugs he probably uh so the thing is so he got sacked and um easy the guitar player who is one of the who is like uh probably the uh the most prolific songwriter in the band he he was against sacking him you know so he liked his vibe his groove
00:11:29
Speaker
but they had to get rid of him, and then they had Mazzor joining the band. So he got like two great musicians, but it's interesting that all that ambitious project came out in a moment of conflict in the band, when you have one member leaving, two members joining the band. It's interesting to come up with such a masterpiece in the middle of those changes. Let me just take you back to Izzy Stradlin and his thoughts on this, because I found a quote from him. So this is what Stradlin said about
00:12:00
Speaker
So yeah, so Adler left, Sorum joined. Adler's sense of swing was the push and pull that gave the songs their feel. When that was gone, it was just unbelievable. Weird. Nothing worked. I would have preferred to continue with Steve. We'd had two years off and we couldn't wait any longer. Now that
Production Values and Orchestration
00:12:20
Speaker
As much as I hear, you know, so you telling me that Izzy Stradlin didn't want Adler sacked, that now makes sense, but on top of that, this doesn't even seem like a, oh, it's a shame we lost Adler. It seems more of a, I don't like the new guy.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, I don't understand why you get so much criticism of that sense, but it's such a great drummer, I think. Do you know what? I'm sorry, I had to read that the drummer had changed. Now, maybe you was a drummer, maybe you heard differences in the drumming between Appetite and this, but I couldn't tell. Well, when we have a band that never actually
00:12:54
Speaker
change the lineup, I mean we have two albums with the same lineup, you have a certain style and I'll say and the drummer is normally a big part of it. So it's not how good and technical the drummer is, it's the vibe he's bringing to the groove and when we talk about swing we're not talking about keeping the beat, we're talking about the spaces between the beats and every drummer interprets that space in a different way. So Steven Adler had his own swing
00:13:21
Speaker
And obviously, Jesus Straddling didn't want that to change. So that makes a lot of sense when you think about it. But then, if you have an ambitious project, you need, especially for the role of bassist and drummer, you need people who can actually handle the pressure of being in studio for hours and hours and hours.
00:13:43
Speaker
and nailing the takes, you know, and providing a solid beat to the band. And we're assuming that Adler wasn't competent enough at this stage due to his picture. If you're not mentally prepared or if you're addicted to some substance, even if you're not physically well, I think for a drummer, it's a quite demanding thing to record, a double arbor. Great point. So I don't know how he was at the time. And then Matt Soran was a guy who had, he played with the coat
00:14:08
Speaker
before he was he was already touring uh uh with you know with a big band and he he he had the experience to go there and be a professional you know just to do the job as you intended to do and i think he's really solid i was gonna ask do you have a preference or a favorite between the two
00:14:25
Speaker
Difficult to say, I think, because Stephen Adler only did those first two hours, and I think he's on drums in Civil War. So let me rephrase the question. Do you prefer the drumming on appetite for destruction or the use your religion? I prefer Matt Sorum.
00:14:42
Speaker
So they use your allusions. Yeah, I prefer. I think he's just more solid overall. And he's got a sound, you know, like he's got that deep, heavy rock and roll sound that, and if you listen to You Could Be Mine, the intro is amazing, but it was talking about, but there's a song, well, if anyone doubts how good he is, I'll find the exact song. I just read it on watching, sorry, very cool.
00:15:08
Speaker
I don't know, from this album, there's a drum intro that I found. Yeah, it's Back Off Bitch, that's the song, it's like eight. There's some phenomenal drum fills at the beginning. It reminds me a lot of John Bonham and classic rock drummers. And it's like, that's him displaying his technique and his creativity, but it doesn't do it pretty much anywhere else on the album, because it's not necessary. So that's part of the double for good drummers.
00:15:36
Speaker
I was just going to say, for viewers and listeners, if you're new to us, any song we mention, including the full album, is in a playlist at the bottom. So if you scroll down, open the show description or the show notes, and you'll see a link to a Spotify playlist where we put every song from the album we're talking about, plus any extras we might mention. So check that out if you want to listen to the album or play a song as you hear us talk about it alongside the show. One thing you mentioned earlier was the production, and I think that is a massive part of this album, especially when you compare it to Appetite for Destruction.
00:16:06
Speaker
One thing that I think has helped this, or is in my opinion from what I've heard, is the addition of Dizzy Reads to this album because the album does feel like a bit, it feels, now I know Axl Rose is playing piano on quite a few of the songs but Dizzy Read on keyboards, it just adds that extra layer doesn't it, another texture, another layer of
00:16:30
Speaker
And I wouldn't even call it overly electronic or special effects. No, but he actually does a lot of piano in the album as well. And his piano playing is really kind of classic rock and roll and blues and country, I'd say. So it's like taking them back to their roots in a certain way.
00:16:49
Speaker
you know, to the roots of the genre they play. So it's rock music, rock music comes from rock and roll, blues and country. And I think Daisy Reed's got that vibe, his piano playing is
00:17:02
Speaker
like flawless. And I think, again, you have someone who is technically great as a musician, knows the music is playing really well. And I think, yeah, it's a big addition to the band. Also, once you have more piano, more keyboards, you're going to take the attention away from the guitars a little bit, because you would see Guns N Roses as a kind of guitar.
00:17:30
Speaker
oriented band isn't it? But then when you have a great piano playing the band things change a little bit. I think so in particular the track. See I know I agree with all you're saying but on top of that just when I'm talking about production I mean just those extra sounds those tiny little details and
00:17:48
Speaker
My main thought is the outro of the song, The Garden, where you've just got these fantastic guitars layering each other as the song fades out with lots of vocals, you know, Axel doing his improvised thing. Just, it just sounds great. The album, and Whilst Appetite for Destruction is like, it's produced well. It's kind of, it's rock and rolly, isn't it? It has a kind of looseness, a kind of rawness about it. And this one,
00:18:14
Speaker
It's so far from being overproduced, but it still sounds like a lot of work has been put in, doesn't it? Yeah, there is. I mean, you have orchestras, you have like, you know, it's not just a rock band. So there's more backing vocals in this album. There is more piano and keyboards.
00:18:33
Speaker
there's orchestral bits. There's a good combination of acoustic and electric.
Balancing Creativity and Commercial Appeal
00:18:39
Speaker
You have Alisa Cooper singing with them in the garden. So you got some interesting things that really make it special. And again, yes, it's more and more elements added to their sound. And I think they've managed to do that without losing the heavy guitars and the aggressive vocals that actually made Guns N' Roses, the band they are.
00:19:03
Speaker
right the the attitude is still there completely isn't it but it just um it's it's interesting because i've never heard such a complete album that has so much so so many different styles and sounds through it i mean here's here's just a little a little list i made so i'm just gonna you know right next door to hell there's a hard rock song dust and bones that's blues rock
00:19:26
Speaker
don't cry it's like a rock ballad perfect crying that's punky you ain't the first is country bad obsession is bluesy back off bitch is kind of mentally November rain is like a symphonic rock song there's just so much going through it I mean I think the last six from the garden onwards it's unusual because from the garden onwards I cut that there is a much more cohesive and
00:19:51
Speaker
uniform sound to those final six songs. We'll just say it gets more punk towards the end. I was punk slash metal slash hard rock. I'd say those last six songs are way more together than the first ten. But that's not a criticism at all. My point is that those first ten songs, you just go hard rock here, metal there, country there, a bit of harmonica, bluesy there. It's just all over the place, but in a really good way, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And I think here's my point about the
00:20:21
Speaker
diversity of the album. It's like, yeah, you have the ambitious project and you want to sell millions of copies. That was the whole point. They really wanted to sell a lot and obviously make a lot of money out of it. So you would think that the band would stay on the safe side and just do things like don't cry. That is a hit. That is a clear hit from the first time we listened to it. It's like, yeah, that is like radio material. And
00:20:48
Speaker
But that song, it also proves that the best love ballads out there are the ones written and performed by heavy rock bands, isn't it? Of course. So yeah, they're just the best, right? But a song like that, you can see where they were coming from, like, let's do this kind of romantic ballad that is heavy as it can be for this kind of music with a nice guitar solo, etc. But it's
00:21:16
Speaker
That would be more predictable, I would say. On the other hand, you have the 15th song in the album, Dead Horse. There's an acoustic intro that has nothing to do with the rest of the song, and it repeats itself at the end. And you have...
00:21:35
Speaker
You have, let me see what's the other one that I got a note about being kind of unpredictable. So some, oh yeah, the harmonic minor scale, is that harmonic minor in that song, double talk and jive. There's a phenomenon based on the bass at the beginning.
00:21:55
Speaker
But then, like, halfway through the song, there's no lyrics anymore. There's a short song. The lyrics are all at the beginning. And then you have this, like, weird guitar solo at the end with an unusual scale. I think it's harmonic minor, because it's my favorite. The band fades out and then you have just acoustic. The band disappears and they have just acoustic. Is that the flamenco solo? Yeah, that's the flamenco kind of solo. So that kind of...
00:22:21
Speaker
So this is unpredictable, right? You listen to the song, okay, well, like a minute and a half into the song, there's no lyrics anymore. And it's just, the band fades out and you have an acoustic section at the end. And you think, well, maybe the band's gonna come back, you know, it's nothing. It's just, so they were experimenting with ideas that not necessarily radio friendly. Also, if you have an album with like 15, 16 songs, you might as well just put some of your own
Personal Reflections on the Album
00:22:52
Speaker
in it, they're not necessarily commercial. And I think they kind of came up with a good balance between being creative and writing commercial songs. Yeah. So I've listened to Use Your Illusion 2 before, but I haven't actually listened to this album before this week. And when I saw the length of time of the album and the amount of songs, I kind of sat there thinking, oh my God,
00:23:19
Speaker
be a long one I've got to listen to this at least three times to know it well enough and the thing with Guns N Roses for me it's quite unusual my little relationship with them because they have some songs that I think my god this is incredible and I'm not talking just about the hits even though I suppose the ones I like are the hits you know Civil War Sweet Child of Mine
00:23:40
Speaker
Paradise City, Welcome to the Jungle, that really songs I love. Other songs are theirs that are famous that I don't really care for. I'm not going to name and shame them, but I just like that. No, I don't like that. With a band like them, I think there's a lot of hit and miss. Yes, yeah. But here, there's just something for everyone, isn't there?
00:23:59
Speaker
I don't see how it's a really, really good album. I think I have to say that straight off the bat. There is something for everyone. Yet there is a cohesion amongst within the album itself. There is no doubt who you are listening to, even if you're listening to what is it? You ain't the first, you know, the really country one, or you're going to like back off bitch.
00:24:21
Speaker
I actually really like, yeah, I really like that one. They're all great songs. That's what's really impressive. That's one of the unpredictable ones for me. When I was listening back to that, I was like, you went the first. Oh, yes, yeah. It's entirely, that's entirely acoustic. There's percussion rather than drums. And at that moment in the album, you're just expecting more heavy rock. It's like, oh, what is that?
00:24:44
Speaker
It's very sparse. There's not a lot going on. No, no. And you wouldn't say that that's a typical Guns N' Roses song. You know, they're really good with the acoustic stuff. Yeah. Let's move on and talk about something that Guns N' Roses, because, you know, we're always asking on this show, why is it rock and
In-Depth Analysis of 'November Rain'
00:25:03
Speaker
roll? What did it, you know, an album can be special and rock and roll without doing anything new or different. But there is something that this album did that was kind of innovative and pioneering.
00:25:12
Speaker
And that is, I mean, I'll just say it outright, it's the song, November Rain. Not the song itself, but what makes up the songs, what makes up the song. And here are the characteristics of it. It's a long song with a complex arrangement and structure changes and all that stuff. It's got a massive orchestra behind it, providing classical elements supporting the rock band.
00:25:38
Speaker
the depth of emotion in the lyrics and his vocals, so as people can't see me counting, and a legendary guitar solo. So we've heard songs that have done these in one way or another. We've heard Stairway to Heaven. We've heard Bohemian Rhapsody. We've heard Freebird that are long and have great solos or Bohemian Rhapsody is long and unconventional.
00:26:00
Speaker
but in terms of a mainstream rock song that combined all four of those elements together and became essentially a hit despite its length, it's a very special song, isn't it? It is. If you compare that one to Koma, which is the last one of the albums, like almost around 10 minutes as well, so those are the longest songs, but Koma is a really well arranged and played song, but
00:26:29
Speaker
doesn't have the catchy chorus, it doesn't have the variety of tones like having an orchestra and all the stuff that you mentioned about November Ring. So November Ring is right at the beginning, you have piano and the orchestra right from the beginning. So it's not like they wait for the orchestra to
00:26:52
Speaker
at some point appear in the middle of the song. It's like, all right, we have strings, we have piano, so it's quite classical in a certain way. And it's just like, well, the guitars are not taken over this time. It's not about the guitars. And then when Slash starts soloing, which he does twice in the song,
00:27:12
Speaker
It's just like, oh my God, it's just the perfect selection of notes. Like I'm going to play every note that the song needs and nothing but those notes. And I think he did a phenomenal job in that solo. I think it's kind of mandatory for any anyone who's learning guitar and wants to be a rock guitar player, learn that solo. And you can see whatever. I mean, Slash is another guy who gets a lot of criticism when people say he's not that good kind of stuff.
00:27:39
Speaker
I mean, can you write that solo? That is the whole point. Yeah, guys, can you? If you can write a solo that everyone can hum along, you know, and he's really good at that. So perfect tone, etc. Also, there's a kind of a marching band vibe on this near right at the end, which is very classical as well. So another
00:28:02
Speaker
you know, a point that proves that Matt Sorum knows what he's doing. So it's a really cool marching vibe at the end, which comes in a point where the song is starting to get predictable. So for me, the length of that song is not about them saying, oh, let's just prove we can do a 10 minute song.
00:28:21
Speaker
It's more like, all right, we have so many good ideas that we can make a song that lasts for nine, 10 minutes. And still, it's not going to sound boring or repetitive. They did a great job on that one. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's actually the longest song in history to enter the US Billboard top 10. Well, it beats Stairway to Heaven, doesn't it? Yes.
00:28:45
Speaker
And it was only knocked off the top recently by Taylor Swift in 2021. I'm skeptical. I haven't listened to the song, but I'm wondering, is it really a long song? Is it a full nine minutes long or is it like, I'll be as good as November. I don't know. I don't know. I'm, I'm, I'm hasten to, um,
00:29:05
Speaker
criticize Taylor Swift in this day and age. She's kind of a massive star. She's really good at what she does. It's just the first time we mentioned her in the show, I guess. Yeah, probably took everyone by surprise. If there's any Taylor Swift fans out there, go and listen to some girls and roses. 30 years. And I think that's a testament to the song. So yeah, the point is that it's the longest song to enter the US Billboard top 10 until 2021. And it shows that
00:29:33
Speaker
There is no other song and there has been no other song since then that has had the length but captured people's hearts and imagination over nine minutes.
00:29:49
Speaker
that's been that popular, that's become a hit song. And it had a, well, as you can see in my background, I chose- I was gonna go on to that next. If anyone is watching this instead of just listening. When Felipe logged on and I saw that photo, you have to understand without seeing that photo in context, it looks like one of those badly generated AI images. AI, make me a photo of, you know, like a swan, you know, in a purple dress. You just get that.
Critique of 'November Rain' Music Video
00:30:17
Speaker
Well, this is a man jumping through a wedding cake. He just cuts through the cake, gets to the other side of the table, isn't it? Everyone who's seen the video knows what I'm talking about. It's a very famous video as well. It's famous as one of the worst videos ever produced for famous bands. But there's a
00:30:41
Speaker
This is the interesting story behind it. So the story about this man jumping on the cake here is basically, so there's the wedding scene, which is Axel Rosen, his girlfriend at the time. But he wanted it to be like a proper wedding. So for the cake scene, he actually had some of his best friends coming around for the scene. So they celebrated like a proper wedding.
00:31:07
Speaker
and and he had his friends and everyone's having a good time but the guy in the picture here he's an actor who was you know hired to be one of the extras or whatever and the director wanted i think he wanted it to look like a fight and someone throws this guy in the cake but
00:31:25
Speaker
here's the thing he said you could so you're gonna be you're gonna fall over the cake and and that's the scene but he jumped into it in a way that doesn't really look like someone threw him in the cake it just jumps over the cake and it's just really bad it's like terrible scene really awful because it doesn't make any sense i just i just watched it and he like he puts his hand on the cake before we go
00:31:51
Speaker
Yeah, he's just jumping into the cake. He's got a smile on his face as well. Yeah, exactly. But the problem was you can't do a second take because they only had one cake. And then the director was like, you just ruined the cake. This scene is just awful. We can't do it again. And then they said, OK, fine. It was there. And so they cut the scene. Of course, that's not going to make it to the final cut. And then Axel watched the video.
00:32:20
Speaker
and said to the director, where the hell is the cake scene? And he said, no, but that was awful. It didn't work. No, no, I want that. I want that terrible thing to be doing. All right.
00:32:35
Speaker
So people say, I said this a million times, this is an awful clip, it doesn't make any sense. So they have this, I think they have this like the whole orchestra and the band, and then you have the massive church where the wedding's taking place, and then Slash walks out of a tiny church in a bit of nowhere to play his solo, it's like, it's not the same church, what's going on? And this guy flies on the cake, nothing makes any sense. So.
00:33:02
Speaker
This is how they defend themselves in this case. And they say it's intended to be a dream. So that's, you can see Axel Rose kind of waking up from the dream, you know, and it's just, yeah, okay. But it sounds like the classic excuse when you do a bad movie and nothing makes sense anymore. And you know what, just saying it was just a dream.
00:33:30
Speaker
Yeah, if this all looks really bad, you just film another 10 seconds of the character waking up from his bed. Yeah, exactly. That would that would explain anything. I think they just couldn't come up with anything better than that. I mean, it might might have been really expensive. So very expensive piece of shit.
Guns N' Roses' Influence on Metal Scene
00:33:46
Speaker
Well, I was going to say, following on from that, that if you look on Spotify, if you look at the the song list, what Spotify do now is they if there's a music video to go along with the song,
00:33:59
Speaker
They'll mention it underneath so that you can watch the video instead. And there's a lot of videos on here. Dead Horse, Apples, Garden of Eden, The Garden, November Rain. All of those songs, that's five songs. And then right towards the end of the album, I just think that that's a lot of money put towards videos. What I'm trying to say is that they didn't, they weren't being cheap with this album. They recorded two albums. They did a shitload of videos.
00:34:24
Speaker
I feel like they kind of knew they had something big in these albums. Yeah. And also that was the MTV era as well. So everything was an MTV. I think Garden of Eden, the video is the one with the camera pointing at Axel's face from the top. And it's basically, I think it's basically just one long shot with that camera pointing at him and the band moving in the background and playing. Yeah. Yeah. I just found it. Yeah. I think it's just the one
00:34:54
Speaker
And then Slash comes to the front. Might have been more than one take, but it looks like one shot. It's a cool video. It's interesting. It's a super cool video. That one might not have been that expensive. No. Yeah. But they knew what they were doing. And like you said, the MTV era as well. It's quite an interesting time, the 90s as well, because when you said the MTV era, obviously, I think you think early 90s and something that I need to give the Guns and Roses credit for. Again, this is Laz putting his metal hat on.
00:35:24
Speaker
Guns N' Roses came at an incredibly important time in metal history and a lot of people don't give them the credit I feel they deserve because what they did is metal was in a like elements of metal were in a great place in the end of the 80s you got fresh metal at its peak with the likes of Metallica Slayer and Megadeth all releasing incredible albums but that wasn't what was popular in metal at the time the type of metal that was popular was glam metal
00:35:49
Speaker
with all the terrible hair and costumes and the bad makeup and the awful videos with the smoke machines and all that stuff. And this is what was popular in metal at the time until appetite for destruction came around and Guns N Roses came and said, no, this is kind of embarrassing now, the way you guys look in the outfits, your spandex and all that stuff. And Guns N Roses essentially
00:36:14
Speaker
along with a couple of other bands like Skid Row, they essentially came in and said a big FU to glam metal and they invented what some would call dirty hair metal. And again, within metal, there are so many sub-genres within metal that it's sometimes too hard to try and figure out where you put this band.
00:36:36
Speaker
With appetite for destruction came dirty hair metal, which is essentially glam metal, but without the stupid looks, without the silly costumes, the dumb hair, the terrible videos, except November 8th. But Guns N' Roses did. It was just a dream last year. Yeah, exactly. But the reason this is important is because going into the 90s, metal had evolved and had become its own thing. We now had big branches of metal going off.
00:37:03
Speaker
and expanding on their own. But the heaviest side of music that was popular in the 90s was grunge.
00:37:12
Speaker
because that's when people started looking at glam metal from the 90s and being like, OK, this was kind of embarrassing now. Let's tone it all down. We're not going to look like we care so much about our image. We're not going to look like we give a damn about about our hair and costumes. And instead of singing about things like, you know, going out with girls and going to parties, we're going to start singing about our feelings. And that's how grunge evolved from the ashes of glam metal in the end of the 80s. So.
00:37:40
Speaker
what I'm saying is it's interesting that Guns N' Roses didn't really change their sound and we know they're not a metal band you know they're essentially a hard rock band but they were keeping that let's call it the dirty hair metal they were keeping it alive and booming and other bands that were in the you know but those bands who were doing those kind of embarrassing spandex outfits once Guns N' Roses gained popularity
00:38:05
Speaker
Guess what went straight away? The bad hairdos, the stupid outfits, the terrible makeup because they saw Guns N' Roses success and that kind of metal, that popular metal, the MTV era of metal split off. You had grunge and you had Guns N' Roses and Guns N' Roses really led that kind of
00:38:24
Speaker
that revolution of glam metal that is trying to be anything but glam metal. So a massive kudos to them. I don't think they often spread it. Yeah, because they were kind of alone, you know, in that scene. Yeah. You know, I mean, they were on a legal their own in terms of how good they were. But also, I don't think no one else or no one else who became big was doing anything similar to their sound at the time.
00:38:49
Speaker
And I think releasing a double album or two albums at the same day is just, yeah, exactly. It's like, here we are. This is our thing. And I don't give a crap about what you think. We're going to do it.
Controversial Lyrics and Themes
00:39:02
Speaker
So, and that's rock and roll, right? There's a song.
00:39:07
Speaker
let me let me find the exact part of the lyrics here yeah let's talk about the lyrics yeah which which um which number is it let me just get it 16 15 so i think it's track 13 or 12 12 13 14 yeah 13 yes 13 uh honestly like don't damn me when i speak a piece of my mind
00:39:28
Speaker
because silence isn't golden when I'm holding it inside. So it's really interesting the way he put it. I don't know if this is Axel or easy. I don't know who wrote the lyrics. Sounds like Axel. So my words may disturb, but at least there's a reaction.
00:39:44
Speaker
I like that is rock and roll so I'm gonna say something it's shocking and you're gonna hate me for that but I'll say it so that's that's cool. I'm so glad you picked yeah no I agree I'm so glad you made that point because I've actually got a point here that I was gonna talk about in the lyrics where I said no filter that there's no filter on this band and we know from the last album what's the song that got him in trouble something million one in a million
00:40:09
Speaker
because it's just full of homophobic, racist, derogatory, discriminatory slurs against everyone. Intentional, because he's picturing a character who's not a good person. Yeah. And that's the thing about rock music. Let's make it really clear.
00:40:28
Speaker
If you were a dickhead and you're saying those things like, you know, because that's what you think, then yeah, we don't like you, get away from here. But also pretending that those people don't exist and not even touching the subject, I personally don't think is the right way of going about it. And what Axel rose saying, what he did before with Welcome to the Jungle and some of those was like, well, the world is not always a beautiful place.
00:40:56
Speaker
And there's some things that people say and do that are not really cool. And here am I saying those things as if I am one of those people, or maybe some of those things and thoughts are part of his own personality. But at the end of the day is that the existence of those lyrics, they show to the listener like there is that kind of bad feelings and hate and stuff. We said that about the Dire Straits song, was it? What's the famous one again?
00:41:25
Speaker
Money for Nothing. He's talking about two guys, so they're making these derogatory comments about the singer in a band, like, oh, these guys, the little faggot is a millionaire, that's the line. So we shouldn't use that word in a song. Well, they're not saying that it's cool to use that word in a song.
00:41:47
Speaker
And that's not the dire straits saying that guy's a whatever. And they actually saying they actually portraying those guys as two stupid people who didn't get anywhere in life and are criticizing people who actually made it. So so it's not so it's it's a really clever use of of of words that people nowadays don't even say anymore. But yeah, Axel was good with that. Like, I'm going to speak my mind. I'm going to say the stuff that no one wants to say. Well, I just found it really interesting because for a band this big,
00:42:16
Speaker
And we know that they didn't, I mean, Appetite for Destruction was a great album and it kind of very quickly elevated them to a level of rock star-ness that they were quite known within the public eye and within mainstream rock music. So for this then, you know, we said it's ambitious, it's confident. Everyone knew what was going to happen in terms of Use Your Illusion. They were waiting for it. The world of rock was waiting for this, for these albums. Yet there is still no filter. Check out these lyrics.
00:42:45
Speaker
I call my mother, she's just a cunt now. I think that's from the song Bad Obsession because I heard it and I thought, oh, this must be from the song Back Off Bitch, because I kind of tried to put two and two together and I got five because it's actually from Bad Obsession. But I just think, I mean, obviously this is 30 years ago. It's completely different world to the world we're in now. But can you imagine one of the biggest rock bands like, I don't know, Royal Blood, The Black Keys,
00:43:14
Speaker
I don't think, yeah, I don't think most bands now that I can't speak for them cause I don't know what's going on with those guys or interferes from record labels,
Connection Through Varied Lyrical Themes
00:43:23
Speaker
whatever. But I don't think most current successful rock bands would use that amount of swearing or even touching some topics. Like you said about bad obsession, bad obsession and bad apples. Those two songs are about
00:43:41
Speaker
drugs. And the common point is, they're not actually saying, oh, you know, let's take drugs, because that's fun. Or there's another thing garden or is it let me find exactly which one we're talking about. Again, is the garden, right? So it's a metaphor for for the place you go mentally, when you're high. And none of those songs are actually saying, this is cool.
00:44:11
Speaker
And remember, they sacked someone because of his addiction. Yeah. So they are approaching that subject as like, listen, this is this is disturbing. You know, this is like what happens to you when you take drugs. It's not good. And they never. That's why it's bad obsession. That's why it's bad apples. They're not talking about the the the whole the overall experience of using drugs as a positive thing, but not mention it.
00:44:38
Speaker
wouldn't be rock and roll. I think that it's like, well, everyone knew they had drug issues. They talked about it. So why not? Do you think lyrics like these, and let's just address this, because there are so many songs, there's 30, well, 31 songs across both of the albums. This is far, far, far from a concept album. Each song has a different, I mean, you've mentioned two songs that share the same themes, but each song has just such, has its own different meaning probably to the band or to the lyricist.
00:45:06
Speaker
You've got themes of love, loss, addiction, anger, societal issues, nostalgia, relationships, self-destruction, addiction. There's so much there. Do you think having a wide 31 songs, all with different lyrical themes, that's going to connect to an audience on a personal level, isn't it? Someone, nearly everyone, in the same way that I said, there's got to be a song for everyone on this album musically.
00:45:33
Speaker
Lyrically, there's got to be a song for everyone here that they can relate to. I think so. I agree with you. And I think there's a lot of loss and suffering and love and hate and all those things.
00:45:49
Speaker
someone who is an artist like like rock and roll singers and stuff like that those people they tend to live their emotions more intensely than most people will do and I think part of it is because you want to write about those things I guess yeah it's just it's a nice outlet isn't it it's a nice way to get them out yeah exactly and and um and I think they um yeah they did really well and
00:46:15
Speaker
let's put it like that, being honest about the feelings behind their experiences, you know, it's like talking about drugs, talking about relationships, you know, don't cry is an interesting story because I think is a straddling had a girlfriend and then when they broke up, Axel rose was in love with her. And then she said, no, this is not going to happen. Don't cry.
00:46:38
Speaker
then he said he went home and cried and then he wrote the song but it's like it's about well you know a relationship that didn't actually happen didn't work so uh but you know can you be a rock singer badass rock singer still talk about love and crying why not you know that's also rock and roll exactly um is there anything else you want to touch on
Ambition and Speculation on Album's Impact
00:47:00
Speaker
Oh man, I think we could go on for ages. Anything in particular, any other? No, I think I should say, what you asked at the beginning in terms of how ambitious this album is, I think, imagine the, as I said, having the boss record two albums and release them at the same time when the whole world is expecting something great out of you. It's like the chances of them disappointing their fans
00:47:30
Speaker
were like really high. The probability of them doing a bad album when you have a key member of the band leaving and two new guys joining and recording like in an earlier episode. Yeah, broken up recording sessions. I don't think it's so much of a disappointment. Well, you're right. There is the chance of disappointment, but only because maybe they promised so much.
00:47:55
Speaker
Exactly. When you promised that much, well, some people could claim that didn't happen with Chinese democracy. They kept people waiting for 13 years. And when you listen to it, my opinion is like, yeah, cool.
00:48:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's like it's like you say to me, I'm going to tell you the funniest joke ever. And they make me wait for 13 years and I say, haha, yeah, nice. So I think with this album, yeah, I think with this little little arrested development reference for anyone. Yeah, put it in the description as well. So if if you've made people wait 13 years for this album,
00:48:34
Speaker
You know what, I still think they would be happier with it. It's just phenomenal. That's a great point. Yeah. That's my last point. One thing I wanted to do is because there's so many songs, I wanted to know if you had a top five.
00:48:46
Speaker
Top five is difficult. It is tough, isn't it? I'll tell you which one surprised me. Okay, so let's go one by one. I might get to five because it's difficult. Right next
Favorite Tracks and Personal Reflections
00:48:59
Speaker
door to hell, the first one. I'm a big fan of opening tracks that actually do the job. Short and sweet, isn't it? Perfect. Yeah, exactly. But the interest
00:49:09
Speaker
builds up, there's more and more tension, it gets heavier and heavier and you can tell how good the production is because the guitars are crystal clear but heavy and distorted. It's amazing.
00:49:23
Speaker
And the lyrics are great too. I'm right next door to hell. So many eyes are on me. I think it does reflect the fact that I'm really famous. Whatever I do people are going to be talking about, I'm not really comfortable with that. It's a really, really cool thing. That surprised me.
00:49:42
Speaker
Live and Let Die, I mean we didn't talk much about that so Live and Let Die is a Paul McCartney song released if I'm not wrong in 1973 as a James Bond soundtrack so it was already a famous song but two decades later you go and recycle that song
00:49:59
Speaker
And how can you make it any better? So they didn't try too hard to change the song. They just performed it with the same structure, same tempo, everything like Paul McCartney did, but they kind of replaced the horn section of the orchestra.
00:50:16
Speaker
by guitars. The guitars take the lead and they just turn it into a heavier song. They just rockified it. So Live or Let Die is great when Wings did it. It's great with Guns N' Roses and I believe that Paul McCartney does it today heavier than the original because Guns N' Roses did that. I believe they have influenced Paul McCartney and I'll
00:50:39
Speaker
and I and that well anyway yeah him I have said something different but I believe they they influence the way he plays it live now uh I think those two are for sure and you went the first really really surprised me
00:50:54
Speaker
an acoustic moment in 6-8, you can hear them counting at the beginning of the song, one, two, three, one, two, three, they start the song. It's kind of cool that they kept that, it feels like you're in the room with the band. It really breaks up the album in a good way, it really just gives you a break from all that heaviness, isn't it? Yeah, so, okay, trying to get to a top five, I would put November Rain there.
00:51:21
Speaker
for sure for everything we said about the song anyway and oh here's the the last one I think I've mentioned four so far so yeah my last one my last one will be well the lyrics I just mentioned
00:51:43
Speaker
God, Dead Man, Don't Damn Me. Don't Damn Me, that's it. Because of the lyrics. More than the instrument or anything else. Yeah, your top five? I just have to say first that the album is so consistent and I'll say a little bit more about that in my monologue, but it's just so hard to choose because, yeah. So in no particular order, right next door to hell,
00:52:09
Speaker
excellent opening track just like you said does the job in such a short space of time it's a short song and it's like three and a half minutes or something. Dust and Bones is the first time I feel like I've heard an obvious bluesy-ness from Guns N Roses. Yeah they've done it really tastefully it's a real great little homage to the blues in a heavy rock song.
00:52:29
Speaker
Back off bitch, I thought was really awesome. The Garden. I loved Alice Cooper's part in that. I thought, you know, and what the part where he's singing, it's just metal. There's even a part where it's a bit dissonant. The guitar goes to a chord that you go, oh, hold on.
00:52:46
Speaker
my ears don't like that I like it but my ears don't like it and I thought that's a really cool song that for one second you're in like a sort of standard classic rock vibe and 10 seconds later you're in metal and it just does that seamlessly so really good um yeah I said right next to our tale dust and bones back off bitch the garden and double talk and jive I thought that was a cool song as well really nice and heavy but yeah
00:53:13
Speaker
A really good album. I'm very pleasantly surprised, actually, I have to say. Are we done? Yeah, I mean, it's sad, but I think I want to hear the monologue. I'll do it. Here we go.
Closing Remarks and Next Episode Preview
00:53:26
Speaker
It's a shorter one than usual, but I didn't feel like I needed to say much. Guns and Roses are an unusual one for me. I find myself loving some songs, severely disliking others and feeling pretty impartial about the rest.
00:53:38
Speaker
But Use Your Illusion 1 had such a diverse array of music that I think it's impossible for a rock fan to say they definitively don't like the album. How can you? There's something for everyone on it. The songs are really well crafted and professionally written.
00:53:53
Speaker
Things like Axel's voice and Slash's guitar are now ignoreable, and I don't mean that at all badly. I mean that Appetite for Destruction put all of their skills on display to such an extent that I wonder if individual performances were subconsciously prioritised for that album, whereas for this one it most certainly seems like the band are playing for the song and not the other way round.
00:54:15
Speaker
The excellent solos and vocal performances now just seem like they naturally fit in with the well-written songs. As a whole, it's just so incredibly impressive how uniform the songs are and how they maintain the same quality and consistency throughout the album.
00:54:30
Speaker
Despite the array of genres we're treated to, I can't help but think of the Rolling Stones when I hear this album, a mix of styles but a cohesive, familiar, established sound at the base of the album. There is a massive confidence about Guns N' Roses in this album, they sound like they're in full swing, even with a new drummer, and they execute these songs immensely. Now, I've gone from being pretty impartial about Guns N' Roses to being really excited to doing Use Your Illusion 2.
00:54:59
Speaker
excellent that's it and it's a man everything you know everything i say in the monologues it's not just something to sound by and get the last look the last words on the album it's true and i actually can't wait to do use your illusion too now so right i might try and squeeze it in over the next couple of months we should do it sooner rather than later right yeah we won't go straight away but listen i'll have a fiddle with the schedule we'll do it sooner rather than later okay awesome excellent i'd love to do that it's actually i prefer the second one
00:55:27
Speaker
Oh, wow. That, oh, Matt, oh, screw you, man. You, you bastard. No, no, no, I agree. I like blue rather than red. You're teasing me now. Now I've got to go listen to it, haven't I? Anyway, guys, thank you again for joining us for another episode of the Long Live Rock and Roll podcast. As we say every week, please do all you can to support us on the socials, follow us on Instagram, like us on Facebook,
00:55:57
Speaker
like and subscribe on YouTube. And if you're listening to us on the Apple or Amazon or Spotify podcast, please go ahead, just scroll down, give us a review and we shoot up the charts in the algorithm and we'll be seen by more like-minded rock and roll fans like yourselves. So thank you again for joining us and we'll see you next time. Yeah, thanks for everyone who's been commenting and sharing and giving us support. Yeah, it's been great guys. So keep on rocking everyone and don't do anything.
00:56:25
Speaker
As usual, take care guys, and long live rock and roll.