Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
TEBI podcast 43: Brian Portnoy on the “evolutionary two-step”: why you first need to survive, then thrive, with your money
582 Plays1 year ago
In the third of a series of 12 TEBI episodes looking at meaning and money during later careers or second lives, Jonathan Hollow interviews writer, educator, investor and Chartered Financial Analyst Brian Portnoy. Brian discusses the concept of "funded contentment" as true wealth, contrasting it with the pursuit of "riches". He explores the four universal sources of deep contentment: connection, control, competence, and context. Brian emphasises the importance of addressing our basic needs, and protecting ourselves, before trying to fund more aspirational goals.
This conversation will encourage you to reflect on what is "enough” for you to pursue your own meaningful life.
This podcast series has been developed with financial planning firm Mulberry Bow. Based in London, they offer a highly personalised service to around 150 individuals and families. Robin Powell and Jonathan Hollow are very grateful for their enthusiastic support for "Second Lives”.
Transcript of this episode: https://ow.ly/bFhA50PeVx5 --Links to key mentions in this podcast:
“The Investor’s Paradox” https://www.amazon.co.uk/Investors-Paradox-Simplicity-Overwhelming-Choice/dp/113727848X—
“The Geometry of Wealth” https://www.amazon.co.uk/Geometry-Wealth-Shape-Money-Meaning/dp/0857196715/--
Shaping Wealth https://www.shapingwealth.com/ --
Mulberry Bow financial planners: https://mulberrybow.com/ --
How To Fund The Life You Want: http://tinyurl.com/how2fund --
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Second Lives' Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
I'm Jonathan Hollow, and welcome back to Second Lives, a series of 12 podcasts for the evidence-based investor, looking at the questions that surround fresh directions in later life. I'm talking to 12 fascinating people who are either living out remarkable second lives or who are experts on money and meaning in later life.
Book on Life Meaning and Investment
00:00:22
Speaker
In 2022, Robin Powell and I published How to Fund the Life You Want, a book that began by talking about life and meaning
00:00:30
Speaker
Then moved on to tactics for managing your investments. My guest in this podcast has tackled both of these topics in some depth.
Portnoy's Career Transition
00:00:39
Speaker
Brian Portnoy describes himself as being on his fifth career in almost as many decades.
00:00:45
Speaker
After managing many people's investments, he took a turn towards the problem of investment psychology, which resulted in two books, the investor's paradox, which was about investment tactics, and the geometry of wealth, which is about why you might want to have money, and enough money, in the first place.
00:01:03
Speaker
Born in Pittsburgh, he lives in Chicago and most recently founded the international financial wellness platform Shaping Wealth, which helps financial planners to develop a rounded approach to understanding their clients. He has 20-plus years of experience as an investor and educator in the hedge fund and mutual fund industries. He is also a chartered financial analyst.
00:01:27
Speaker
You are about to hear a fascinating discussion about overcoming our own fears and biases, what it means to achieve true wealth and why we find it so difficult to conclude that we might have enough.
Podcast Collaboration with Mulberry Bow
00:01:40
Speaker
But just before we roll this interview with Brian, I'd like to say a word about Mulberry Bow. This podcast is brought to you in collaboration with them. They are a chartered financial planning boutique in the city of London that offers a highly personalized service
00:01:56
Speaker
to around 150 individuals and families. Robin Powell and I liked the fact that the team at Mulberry Bow do not have sales targets, nor do they have their own financial products to sell. They sit on your side of the table. For more information, just Google Mulberry Bow Wealth Planning or follow the links in the notes for this podcast. So now to Brian Portnoy.
Portnoy's Midlife Shifts
00:02:23
Speaker
You said to me that you're on, I think, your fifth career, and you described your life as a series of midlife crises. One of your crises gave birth to your first book, The Investor's Paradox. So tell me about that switch. Yeah, sure. 30 plus years ago, I started my career in politics. Then I decided to go to graduate school and do a doctorate in politics and economics.
00:02:47
Speaker
decided not to be a professor, decided to go into investments in finance. And, you know, over the course of close to 15 years, did investment research, managed portfolios, worked with clients, did due diligence on complex investments, a variety of different things.
00:03:04
Speaker
And, you know, there was a moment in 2010, 2011 or so, but I think it really was a midlife crisis. Like what the hell am I doing with my life? I wasn't particularly happy in the job that I was at for, you know, whatever the specific reasons were at the time. And, you know, I just began to write and journal and think and talk to friends about, okay, you know, at the time I was probably, you know, right around 40 years old, give or take.
00:03:35
Speaker
Part of that journey was just beginning to read somewhat randomly in the psychology literature, the psychology of money, so adjacent to what I was doing. And, you know, some pretty big light bulbs went off in terms of, oh, okay, here's depth that I hadn't fully appreciated on the way we are wired, how our minds work.
00:03:55
Speaker
how we get along with others, all that, how we make decisions. I enjoyed that so much that I began to write a book. I published a book in 2014 called The Investor's Paradox, and there's
Themes of Portnoy's Books
00:04:09
Speaker
something in social psychology known as the paradox of choice, which says that we very much cherish
00:04:16
Speaker
or love the choice that we have in life, the choices we have, because it's indicative of us having freedom and opportunity and things that are very meaningful. But at the same time, in modern society, we have so many choices across so many domains. It could be very overwhelming to the point where it is depressing, like clinically depressing, to the extent that any of the listeners are like, yeah, some days I just feel overwhelmed with how much stuff there is.
00:04:43
Speaker
It was actually a book about becoming rich. It was about making better decisions so you could have more money. It wasn't until my second book that I went broader and deeper on rich versus wealthy and what it means to be wealthy as distinct from rich. And that's why you say the investor's paradox was the right book but in the wrong order because you started at the tactics end rather than the kind of reasons and purposes end, I suppose.
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, you know, joke, not joke that the geometry of wealth is a prequel to the investor's paradox, but I couldn't have written that book. I couldn't have written the geometry of wealth until I chopped the wood I needed to in the investor's paradox, you know, just coming to terms with
00:05:31
Speaker
the relative, it's not narrow, but the relatively narrow topic of decision-making and cognitive science and how we kind of sort through all of the noise, hardly a narrow topic, but it's not as broad as the question of what is the good life. So yeah, by the time I got to the final chapter, both figuratively and literally of the investor's paradox, I just began to ask myself, like, who the hell cares?
00:05:59
Speaker
like investing for the most part is a solved problem. Most people most of the time should not struggle on how to build the right portfolio for their purposes, which isn't to say that people don't make mistakes and advisors don't make put advisor clients into the wrong portfolios. That's a kind of a separate conversation. As the line goes, simple doesn't mean easy.
Defining Wealth and Life Goals
00:06:22
Speaker
You run a platform called shaping wealth. It's really been built up from the impact of a phrase from the geometry of wealth. And that phrase is funded contentment. You say that funded contentment is true wealth and you contrast it with being merely rich. So rich versus wealthy. So as I think about it, as I, as I define it, rich is a number.
00:06:48
Speaker
Rich is a search for more. It's something that's quantifiable. So if you have a million dollars and then you have then have two million dollars, you've become richer, but you haven't necessarily become wealthier. So this idea of funded contentment is true wealth or I define it as the ability to underwrite a life that is meaningful to you.
00:07:12
Speaker
And so it basically takes sort of deep thinking about a life well-lived and then introduces the money piece to it. Can you underwrite that life that you want? Can you afford a meaningful life? It's a little bit of an awkward question. That is wealthy to me. And I think that for most of us who thankfully have a roof over our heads and food on the table and live safely, that search for wealth is ever-present and ongoing.
00:07:45
Speaker
This is Jonathan Hollow and you're listening to Second Lives. I'm interviewing Brian Portnoy about the roots of happiness and how true wealth can flower in them. You train financial advisors from all over the world through this platform in the psychology of money and more importantly in the evidence and the elements of a happy life. How radical is your thinking compared to the backdrop of technical qualifications that
00:08:13
Speaker
advises are used to? I wouldn't call it radical. I would just call it, you know, sort of it sort of fills out the hole.
Shift in Financial Profession
00:08:23
Speaker
I mean, if we take a step back and we just think about the financial planning profession over the last generation, there's been a pretty dramatic transformation of this being a transactions oriented business to a relationships oriented business. Along the way, there's a lot of technical skills on the planning side.
00:08:41
Speaker
not just on building the right portfolios, but engaging with the right types of insurance, structuring estates in ways that are appropriate, tax optimization, legacy planning. I mean, there's a whole variety of what I would consider technical skills that are designed towards solving engineering problems.
00:09:04
Speaker
But they don't in any way touch on the deeper things that we tend to desire when it comes to our lives generally in our money lives specifically so that the platform that i started a few years ago.
00:09:19
Speaker
Well, the book that I wrote, The Geometry of Wealth, and then the platform that it inspired is really designed to help advisors and advisory platforms engage the other half of their brain. So if we've got these left brain quantitative analytic
00:09:36
Speaker
engineering problems. Well, we also have right brain challenges with understanding ourselves, understanding others, building deep relationships, helping others. We now have decades worth of insight from behavioral science on how to communicate better, how to listen better, how to engage people more deeply. And so we're bringing that to bear.
00:10:04
Speaker
And what kind of forces are drawing people towards that service that you offer?
Model for Happiness
00:10:10
Speaker
In some ways, chat GPT couldn't, you know, it's the best thing that could have happened to my business. I mean, sort of came out of the blue, right? Not AI. AI has been around since the late 1940s. But chat GPT and some of these easy to access AI engines now has everybody wondering, huh,
00:10:29
Speaker
I as a knowledge worker, can I be outsourced? What does it mean to show up as a real human being and not as a robot? And so we're seeing just a ton of interest in humans becoming even more human, whatever that might mean. How much does the evidence about happiness or its application differ across the world?
00:10:53
Speaker
I don't think it differs at all. I think people are people. That's not to say that there aren't different cultural attitudes and approaches towards something called happiness, but the model that I put forth in the geometry of wealth, and there's an old line that all models are wrong, but some are useful. I think the model that I put forth in the book and what we now leverage from a training point of view is very useful.
00:11:20
Speaker
in some detail, my team coaches in some detail on the four sources of deep contentment, what I call the four C's, connection, control, competence, and context. So what really matters to us, and it doesn't matter if you were in the UK or in the US or in Argentina or in New Zealand, these are universal. They are timeless.
00:11:43
Speaker
connection, control, competence and context. These are the elements of your theory of happiness, I suppose, and central to the geometry of wealth. Set them out for us.
00:11:56
Speaker
Number one, connection, our sense of belonging, belonging to a group, sort of our deep tribal nature defines who we are. This is the way that we're born. At the same time, you know, we value control or autonomy. You know, we want freedom, liberty. We want to be able to do what we want. We want to be able to determine our own destiny and tell our own story.
00:12:20
Speaker
The third C, competence, is finding meaning in the things that you do. So when you go to a party and you meet somebody new and they say, well, what do you do? Spoiler alert, they don't care what you do. They just want a window into who you are.
00:12:36
Speaker
Our work, to some extent, defines us. So we have connection, control, competence. The fourth C is context. And this is the idea that we want to be attached to a broader context, to a broader sense of purpose. And historically, that has been faith or place. So we have, and not just religion per se, but spirituality.
00:12:58
Speaker
We all have one story or another that connects us to the cosmos of where we fit into this vast and incomprehensible, to some extent, universe of ours. And then secondly, whether it's our patriotism or our hometown pride, many of us are very much defined by where we come from.
00:13:17
Speaker
Last thing I'll say here, we could certainly go into whatever detail you want. On the country by country front, I just want to make a distinction between a happy life and a meaningful life.
Understanding Clients' Money Attitudes
00:13:28
Speaker
We're talking about a meaningful life. And you call that reflective happiness is, I think, the term that you use.
00:13:35
Speaker
when we talk about reflective happiness, that deeper sense that life is good. It is attached to a reflective sense of, okay, those four things are important and they are going well or not well. It's not a scorecard. The idea isn't that each is on a scale from one to 10, and if you could score a 40,
00:14:01
Speaker
you know, you're like leading like a super meaningful life. It doesn't work that way. In fact, part of the coaching exercises that we do with advisors who in turn use this with their clients is to kind of write your life story through the lens of those four sources of contentment. Now for a word from Mulberry Bowe, who have collaborated with us to develop this series. I spoke to Simon Bullock of Mulberry Bowe.
00:14:29
Speaker
How does an advisory firm tune in to make sure it understands a client's fundamental attitudes towards money? Here's what he had to say.
00:14:41
Speaker
It's difficult one, Jonathan. I mean, the first thing I'd say is we listen, you know, we really listen. And I'm not, I'm not sure where I read it, but someone said, if you can show me someone's diary and their bank statements, I can tell you what's important to them. And we try to explore that idea with clients and explore these sort of three limits on happiness, money, time, health,
00:15:03
Speaker
In our experience, all three of those are interrelated and the client's view on how they spend their time and on health, not just physical health, but their overall wellbeing is going to inform their attitude to money. We're also mindful that a difficult relationship with money can certainly lead to a lot of wasted time and even have an impact on your health. So I suppose the one thing I'd say is we try to look at that whole picture. Thank you. That was Simon Bullock.
00:15:32
Speaker
the founder of Mulberry Bow. And now back to Brian Portnoy with his thoughts about money, self preservation and evolution. So going back to the geometry of wealth, we talked about the four C's that you linked to purpose.
Survival Instincts in Financial Planning
00:15:49
Speaker
And then there's a section on setting priorities. You started setting priorities with protection. And I get the impression you think this is really quite deep rooted in our evolutionary origins.
00:16:02
Speaker
I think a lot of people would start with aspiration or ambition. What I call, probably others call, the evolutionary two step.
00:16:11
Speaker
is just the idea that we want to survive and then thrive. Our job is to survive. What our genes are here to do is to propagate, and they can't propagate if we are dead. So our number one instinct that has been wired into us over millions and millions of years of evolutions is to stay alive. It is not to achieve. It is not to reach goals. It's not to have a great time. It's not to go out with your friends.
00:16:38
Speaker
it is to stay alive so that you can move forward and your genes can move forward.
00:16:45
Speaker
We only get one ticket for the ride. So on any given day, you have to survive, but you don't necessarily have to thrive. And this isn't sort of a one-stop thing. It's a never-ending thing every day, okay? We are incredibly, sensitively hard-wired so precisely to perceive danger around us. Physical danger, but also psychological danger.
00:17:08
Speaker
The psychological danger is not something unimportant or ephemeral. I'm sitting comfortably in my home office as are you. I doubt either of us is feeling physically endangered. I hope not. I feel okay. You seem fine. No, I'm good.
00:17:27
Speaker
You good? Okay. Good. Good. We're good. But then the psychological safety piece is also critical in terms of we don't want to feel emotionally unstable or threatened or captured in some way. We are always taking stock of our environment and sussing out whether there's any sort of danger.
00:17:49
Speaker
It's only on the back of that that we really can and want to think about thriving and aspiration and achieving our goals and living the good life. When you attach all of this to the financial planning process,
00:18:05
Speaker
It means that job one, absolutely job one is make sure that you're okay. And it's actually the number one question. So I've met tens of thousands of end investors over the years. The number one question that you get in one way or another is, am I going to be okay? Are my loved ones going to be okay? Not how do I afford the next Ferrari or go on the next luxury vacation or anything like that.
00:18:25
Speaker
Deep down, we are wired to constantly ask the question, am I going to be okay?
Psychology of Loss Aversion
00:18:30
Speaker
And so through the lens of planning, that is making sure that we have satisfied our basic needs, a la Maslow's Hierarchy. It is making sure that maybe we have a little extra cash in the bank in the event of emergencies. It makes sure that we have thought about insurance in a general and constructive ways.
00:18:54
Speaker
A lot of the times when you read books on behavioral finance, people will be saying that loss aversion is a psychological trap that you need to at times and places overcome in order to succeed. Well, there's just a very straightforward logic that comes out of evolutionary psychology, which is that if gains were more pleasurable than losses were painful, we would be taking excessive risk.
00:19:22
Speaker
And the future of the species would be imperiled. It's the opposite. We take care of ourselves. We protect ourselves. Losses are much more painful. And so we go out of our way to anticipate and avoid those losses. And when the losses happen, we do what we can to mitigate their damage. And then the good stuff comes later. So I would say that loss aversion is an absolute centerpiece of what defines being human.
00:19:52
Speaker
Another couple of themes that really interested me in the later parts of the geometry of wealth were your focus on adaptation and also creative destruction.
Adapting to Capitalism and Change
00:20:02
Speaker
What happens in any capitalist industry is that someone builds something, they sell it for a profit, other people see those profits and they jump into the fray and try to do something better or cheaper or different.
00:20:18
Speaker
And change is inevitable. You know, I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the seat of heavy steel manufacturing for a century. And at a certain point, the industry disappeared and a lot of people lost their careers forever. In its wake, Pittsburgh has become a global hub for artificial intelligence and robotics and medical technology. This is the nature of change. Capitalism destroys everything in its wake.
00:20:44
Speaker
over time and things replace it. That's not to say that everyone gets retrained from a steelworker to an expert in robotics. It doesn't work that way. There are lots of losers in the process. But this idea of creative destruction is that the world happens, things change and we have to respond or we can respond if we want. So that's the connection in your question between creative destruction and adaptation.
00:21:11
Speaker
The world is predictably unpredictable and we need to assess the situation we're in and decide to go left, right, up, down, forwards, backwards in order to survive. This is Jonathan Hollow and you're listening to Second Lives. I'm interviewing Brian Portnoy, whose best-selling books have spawned a training platform and stimulated the interest of financial planners across the world. The other thing that your
Knowing When Enough is Enough?
00:21:41
Speaker
The later part of the book made me think about is a favorite little anecdote of mine about the writer, Joseph Heller, who wrote a novel called Catch-22. It made a lot of money. It made him a lot of esteem. And one day he and his friend, the writer Kurt Vonnegut were at a party given by a billionaire. And Vonnegut said to Heller, did you know that our host, who is a hedge fund manager, has made more money in a single day?
00:22:08
Speaker
than you ever made from Catch-22 since it was published a few decades ago. And Heller said, yes, but I have something he will never have. And Vonnegut said, what on earth could that be, Joe? And Heller replied, enough.
00:22:25
Speaker
This is the topic on many people's minds. In fact, I don't know, what's 12, 14 years of kind of being in the wealth management space now and just listening to what people are asking, trying to figure out what they care about. There's really two questions that are on people's minds. Number one, am I going to be okay? And number two, how much is enough? From a genetic wiring point of view,
00:22:50
Speaker
We've got this little neurotransmitter in our brain that sloshes around called dopamine. There's a really good book called The Molecule of More. We're hardwired to want more. We talked a lot about survival. Now let's talk about thriving.
Dopamine and Goal-setting
00:23:05
Speaker
We are goal-oriented. The psychology of goals and goals formation teaches us that a life without goals is kind of an empty, not fun life. So we're always striving towards something, whether it be in
00:23:18
Speaker
the moment or over a multi-decade view. We're all pushing toward something. And where the dopamine comes in is that the anticipation of achieving that goal.
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah, floods are little noggins with this chemical bath. And like, oh, it feels kind of good. Like, hey, I'm about to achieve that. And I'm moving toward the goal. I'm going to win the game. I'm going to get the promotion. I'm going to date that attractive man or woman. I'm going to do the things that I want to do.
00:23:54
Speaker
But then we have another psychological principle called hedonic adaptation. Why not throw some more jargon into the mix? We have this thing called hedonic adaptation, which basically says that, okay, there's enough dopamine to make us feel good about striving toward this goal, but not when we achieve it.
00:24:14
Speaker
The pleasant feeling more or less disappears relatively quickly. We're not particularly good at even that we could talk about it all day long. We could understand the science and history of it all. But the fact is that we don't know. We're not very good at assessing how good we're going to feel when we achieve that goal.
00:24:34
Speaker
And usually the intensity and duration of that good feeling is much less than what we think it's going to be. And there's an evolutionary argument for why that's true, which is that if the reward was so overwhelmingly good, we wouldn't be pushing for more. So our bodies are actually built in a way that we are chronically disappointed. I mean, at Shaping Wealth, we do a whole coaching program on sort of thinking through what is enough.
00:25:04
Speaker
I do like to anchor it on the genetic and the evolutionary. I think it allows us to show ourselves a little bit of grace because, you know, like I'm comfortable, you're comfortable. Everybody listening to this podcast, I'm sure is quite comfortable in the grand historic sense. They're not living in abject poverty, but we still struggle with wanting that next thing of wanting to move forward, of getting the things that we want, but not being as happy as we thought we'd be once we achieved it.
00:25:32
Speaker
I like to ask all my guests about how they plan for their current success.
Portnoy’s Life Philosophy
00:25:39
Speaker
And you have an interesting metaphor for your own life planning process because you talk about firing the arrows first, then drawing the bull's eyes around them. Can you expand on that?
00:25:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think that I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I don't think I ever fully will. We're shooting arrows and we don't know where they're necessarily going to go. We don't always know where we want them to go. We venture forth and let's see how this works out.
00:26:07
Speaker
Well, you know, sometimes you shoot that arrow and you're like, hey, I ended up in a good place. Well, then you paint the bullseye afterwards. Like, hey, look, I nailed it. I, you know, you know, I wrote a best selling book that's translated into a bunch of languages. Like, hey, I achieved my goal. Was that really my goal? No, not really. But I can certainly tell a story about how I like hit the bullseye. And do you personally feel like you fire a lot of arrows or do you
00:26:35
Speaker
suddenly kind of swerve from one direction to another through maybe instinct? Yeah, that's a good question. I haven't thought about that. Yeah, I've shot a lot of arrows in the sense that I am on my fifth career. As mentioned earlier, politics and academia, then investing, then writing, now I'm an entrepreneur. I mean, there's a through line.
00:27:01
Speaker
mean, there is a bullseye that I've painted. So I can tell a very coherent story. But you know, it's a coherent story looking backwards, not coherent. You know, on a going forward basis makes absolutely no sense. I might look like an idiot. It's like, okay, one thing after another. At the same time, you know, there are people who take on a job at age 22. And you know, at age 62, they're still in that same vocation. And they've had a great time. And they've had success. And they've made great money. And they have a sense of accomplishment. Like there's no
00:27:28
Speaker
certainly no one one right way to do this. So I think, you know, relative to others, I've shot a lot more arrows, because it each step along the way, you know, I've said, Okay, great. I think I hit that bullseye. But now I want the next archery tournament, like I'm going to move on. You know, so you know, I got a PhD from the University of Chicago, like it's not a small accomplishment. I got the doctorate and I quit.
00:27:51
Speaker
I moved on to a low paying job at a local investment firm. Why? Because I wanted to do the next thing. I didn't want to do what I was on the path toward doing, which even at the time, but certainly in retrospect, I'm very proud of that because I gained the courage to make a decision that some people thought was insane. But I knew instinctually that that was maybe a good path for me. So yeah, I think
00:28:22
Speaker
So I'm thinking out loud about this question. I actually think I've shot a lot of arrows and I still am because, you know, in my early fifties, I started my own company for the first time. And it's like, boy, I don't know if it's, you know, this is sort of a young man's game, but here I am. And okay, we'll, we'll, we'll see how it goes. And, you know, maybe we'll get back on the, back on the horn in a, in a year or three. And I can tell you about the bulls I have painted.
00:28:46
Speaker
Thank you. I'd love to do that. And thank you for your candor. I think it's an inspiration, actually.
Facilitating Wealth Conversations
00:28:52
Speaker
I don't like BSing people. It's like, let's talk about what we're really talking about, or let's not talk at all. I don't really have time for the nonsense. Before we go, I will link to the geometry of wealth in the podcast notes. But could you just give listeners a final little summary of what you think the book can do for them?
00:29:13
Speaker
Yeah, so I can just relay what others have shared with me, which is that it has facilitated much more productive thinking in one's own head, but also many more productive conversations with loved ones about what a truly wealthy life looks like and how you might go about achieving it.
00:29:35
Speaker
So that was Brian Portnoy, urgent, frank and fearless. I hope you found his interview as stimulating and as lively as I did. If you've enjoyed this episode, please bookmark this podcast in your app so that you don't miss the next episode.
00:29:52
Speaker
In that next episode, in a fascinating and personal favorite interview, I'll be speaking to Lisa Granick, a remarkable person who has moved from the bookbound world of legal academia to becoming a world expert in the wines of one of my favorite countries, Georgia. I'd like to thank again, Mulberry Bow, a chartered financial planning boutique in the city of London that has worked with us to develop this series. For more information, just Google Mulberry Bow Wealth Planning
00:30:21
Speaker
or follow the links in the notes for this podcast.