Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
TEBI podcast 45: Héctor García on lessons from long lives in Japan
437 Plays1 year ago
In the fifth of a series of 12 TEBI episodes looking at meaning and money during later careers or second lives, Jonathan Hollow interviews multi-million selling author Héctor García about the lessons we can learn from the longest-living people in Japan. Héctor is the co-author of”Ikigai”, a book about a key concept in Japanese wellbeing, which translates to "reason for being" or "purpose in life".
Héctor explains his deep insights into Japanese culture and its approach to later life, highlighting how the Japanese transition to different phases of life rather than retiring completely. He discusses stress, acceptance of negative emotions, and the significance of community support among older people in Japan. He suggests that any change from our first life to a new life should be gradual, combined with both self-awareness and perseverance. The interview explores the profound impact of Japanese culture on García's perspective on life and he offers thoughtful and compelling insights for anyone looking for fresh purpose and sustainable happiness.
This podcast series has been developed with financial planning firm Mulberry Bow. Based in London, they offer a highly personalised service to around 150 individuals and families. Robin Powell and Jonathan Hollow are very grateful for their enthusiastic support for "Second Lives”.
Transcript of this episode: https://www.evidenceinvestor.com/ikigai-author-hector-garcia-on-life-lessons-from-japan/ --
Links to key mentions in this podcast: “Ikigai” - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ikigai-Simple-Secrets-Long-Happy/dp/1529902401 —
Héctor’s personal website - https://hectorgarcia.org/ —
Mulberry Bow financial planners: https://mulberrybow.com/ —
How To Fund The Life You Want: http://tinyurl.com/how2fund --
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Second Lives' and Jonathan's Journey
00:00:04
Speaker
I'm Jonathan Hollow, and welcome back to Second Lives, a series of 12 podcasts for the evidence-based investor looking at life, money and meaning, especially when people have made a bold leap in a new direction. I'm talking to 12 fascinating people who are either living out remarkable second lives or who are experts on money and meaning in later life.
00:00:27
Speaker
My own second life began by writing a book with Robin Powell called How to Fund the Life You Want. It was published by Bloomsbury in 2022. It's received wonderful reviews and won a national award.
Hector Garcia's 'Ikigai' and Japanese Insights
00:00:40
Speaker
However, I can only dream of the success of the book published in 2016 by today's guest, Hector Garthia, who also wrote it with a co-author, Francesc Mirales. Ikigai, the Japanese secret to a long and happy life,
00:00:56
Speaker
which is about lessons in life, purpose, and meaning from contemporary Japan has sold millions of copies and has been translated into an astonishing 70 languages, including Japanese. I feel very lucky to have interviewed Hector. You are about to listen to one of the most thoughtful people I've ever had the privilege of speaking to.
00:01:18
Speaker
Hector was born in Spain and worked at CERN in Switzerland before moving to Japan, his home for more than 18 years. He has a remarkable ability to translate deep concepts of Japanese culture into meanings that can be picked up and applied by people outside that culture. He has published 10 books, including most recently a work of fiction.
Mulberry Bowe Collaboration & Japanese Retirement Views
00:01:41
Speaker
But just before we roll this interview with Hector Garthier, I'd like to say a word about Mulribaux. This podcast is brought to you in collaboration with them. They are a chartered financial planning boutique in the city of London that offers a highly personalized service to around 150 individuals and families.
00:02:00
Speaker
Robin Powell and I like the fact that the team at Mulberry Bowe do not have sales targets nor their own financial products to sell. As they like to say, they sit on your side of the table. For more information, just Google Mulberry Bowe wealth planning or follow the links in the notes for this podcast. So now to Hector Garthia,
00:02:23
Speaker
Hector, I like to think of Ikigai as in many ways an anti-retirement book. I like that title, subtitle that you gave. Maybe we should change it. Maybe we can create a new category in Amazon, anti-retirement books. Does the Japanese language actually have a word for retirement?
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah, it has many words for retirement, but when you get into the nuance of what it really means, it feels, once you learn Japanese, it feels to me that the meaning is not as negative as
00:03:05
Speaker
the word retirement. So in Japanese, when you use the words retirement, it's more like you are transitioning to another phase in your life in which maybe you were doing something, you were focused on a daily job, and now you're going to be focused in your family.
00:03:23
Speaker
Or maybe you're going to be focused in a more relaxed work, like daily work, like in Japan, you can work even after you are 65 or 70, you can work 20 hours per week and it's perfectly legal. You can keep making money if you want. But most people, they retire in the sense that they stop working for a company, but they keep doing all the things you can focus on, mainly like focusing on your hobbies.
00:03:53
Speaker
You become an artist or you focus on your family, on your community, things like that. So the mindset is different. You are moving to another phase of your life. For me, the word retirement in English, it feels like you are not going to be useful anymore to anyone.
00:04:15
Speaker
You are retired. You use the word also for other things. When you retire like an old furniture, you don't need it anymore. You are going to throw it away. So it has a bad connotation, I think.
Ikigai and the Power of Words
00:04:28
Speaker
And I think that's important. I'm kind of almost a philosopher, and I realize how important words are to our mindset.
00:04:40
Speaker
psychological well-being. And that's maybe how I end up writing books where the title is just a word. Some people say, oh, that's very simple, just a word. But the meaning that you can create from just a word, it can be very powerful in a negative way or in a good way.
00:05:00
Speaker
Let's talk about Ikigai, the word that you use to title your best-selling book. It has a rich meaning. You'd struggle to translate it simply into other languages. How would you try to convey what Ikigai means?
00:05:15
Speaker
Ikigai you can translate it simply like a reason for being or your purpose in life and it's what it literally translates as what is worthwhile doing so that can be different for each of us
00:05:32
Speaker
one question i get a lot is like can i have many ikigais or can my ikigai change and the answer is yes for many people and maybe for some other people it's not like it would be just one thing for you all your life or it can be
00:05:49
Speaker
Most people I think it changes depending on the phase of your life where you are. Maybe in your 20s what makes your life worthwhile is something very different from what it will make it worthwhile when you are in your 50s.
00:06:06
Speaker
So the mind, the word icky guy compresses that when you tell someone what is your purpose in your life you can say just what's your icky guy. I also tell like parents if you have your kids maybe to put them in a better state of mind instead of asking them what do you want to be when you are older you can ask them what is your icky guy.
00:06:31
Speaker
And then that will make kids think more deeply. It's not only about, oh, I want to be a doctor, but maybe it's about my guys. I want to learn how to cure people so I will improve their lives. So that changes the mindset. And then maybe they will become a doctor or maybe they will become something else. Maybe they start building new hospitals, for example.
00:07:00
Speaker
A doctor is a role, whereas healing people is an activity. Yes. We are also having a meaning crisis in society as a whole. If you guys about meaning, about giving meaning to your life, if you use just the role, like I'm a teacher, I'm a doctor, I'm a dentist, I'm a software engineer, like then
00:07:25
Speaker
That's okay as a starter, but it might be if you identify only with that, that might not be enough to keep you going. So it is better if you think in terms of what gives you meaning to your life.
00:07:44
Speaker
Now you are a software engineer and then later you become a lead software engineer and later you are like a leader of people. But you keep doing your ikigai, building good services for users, for example. I'm guessing from what you're saying that ikigai is an everyday word in Japanese.
00:08:09
Speaker
Yes, it is so every day that it is kind of funny that now our book, it was the first book about the Kigai that was published. Now I think there are more than 50 books about the Kigai.
00:08:27
Speaker
we are proud to say that we started the fire and it was translated to Japanese and Japanese people read the book Ikigai and they are surprised that there is a book just about this word and some people criticize it like they say it's pretentious why do you get this it is just a word but I think as long as it is useful to people I think we're doing a good thing there is nothing wrong
00:09:01
Speaker
This is Jonathan Hollow, and you're listening to Second Lives. I'm interviewing Hector Garthia about life, purpose, and lessons in community from centenarians in Japan.
00:09:14
Speaker
You and Francesc, your co-author, didn't take a theoretical approach to understanding this word. You went to the epicentre of healthy longevity in Japan and you interviewed many supercentenarians. So I'd like to take a look at the places you went to, Okinawa and Ogini. What makes these two places so statistically remarkable?
00:09:38
Speaker
Inside Japan, the place with the longest living people is Okinawa. And then inside Okinawa, the village with the longest living people is this place called Ogimi. And that makes this the longest living village in the world. Very special place.
00:09:58
Speaker
And we went there. We always say that we are not scientists. We are more writers and very curious writers. We would have ideas and write books about these ideas
Health in Retirement and Rural Ikigai Practices
00:10:11
Speaker
and then let those ideas be expanded by other people now.
00:10:15
Speaker
I know several people now in universities contacting us because they are doing PhDs based on Ikigai, so they are really doing studies of people who retire and do absolutely nothing and people who don't really retire. They keep on doing their hobbies and see if there is a correlation
00:10:36
Speaker
between having an illness that will end your life or like having a very bad illness or not. And it seems it is starting to be clear that there is evidence that retiring and doing absolutely nothing is really bad for you. And that's the first thing we realized in Nogimi. There was not really anyone really retired doing nothing. Everyone was very active. Our taxi driver was more than 90 years old.
00:11:05
Speaker
We went to a birthday of three people who were, if I remember correctly, more than 90 years old. And they were dancing more than us, that we were in our forties. So that was weird. They had more energy than us. It's a very special place. And you interviewed these people? Yes. Can you build up a picture of them and what they said about their ikigai?
00:11:35
Speaker
Yeah, that was one of the first questions that we asked them. The most striking thing was that they didn't doubt when you asked them, they would answer you, my ikigai is my family, my ikigai is taking care of my garden.
00:11:51
Speaker
or they like growing their own vegetables in Ogimi. So everyone came up with an ikigai very fast. If you do the same experiment in a big city, like for example, here in Tokyo, it's not the same. People will have many doubts. Like maybe they will came up with a more nuanced answer. Like, I don't really know what's my ikigai, but my work is this.
00:12:20
Speaker
and answers like that. You know, give me the answers were very clear. I always tell a story about the lifestyle in the countryside in Japan, which is very different from Tokyo. Tokyo is a city that has the same or very similar problems to the rest of the big cities in the modern world, where people are losing sight of their meaning in their lives, their ikigai basically. Though in the cover of the book, we put the word
00:12:48
Speaker
japan but it's a little bit more than japan is a book about the old countryside lifestyle of japan and that mindset and it sounds like the ikigai that these people gave you was quite humble i suppose not not highfalutin
00:13:06
Speaker
That's also one of the points. You don't need to come up with something that is going to impress and you are going to change the world and things like that. It's a very peaceful place. So when you do, you don't see many people with smartphones and things like that. So it is maybe easier for them to keep that lifestyle.
00:13:25
Speaker
that they are more connected with what they do, what they like and what they enjoy. It sounds very simple, but when we get busy with life, we sometimes forget.
00:13:37
Speaker
I want to build up a little bit of a picture of your book for listeners. It's a very rounded portrait of successful longevity. It covers philosophy, social relationships, stress, diet, exercise, and also individual projects and passions. I think those last two are the most elusive. What would you say to somebody who is saying, I'm fed up with my old way of life. How do I find a new reason for getting up every day?
00:14:06
Speaker
for the next 40 or 50 years. We can say if you are frustrated with your current lifestyle or whatever it is that is going on in your life, the good news is that it's good that you are aware of that. Some people, they are not even aware of that. So it's a good thing that you are here listening to us.
00:14:26
Speaker
That's the first thing to realize. Once you are aware of something, this is not only for change of life, but changes of anything. Having awareness. This also comes from Zen philosophy of the Japanese. Having awareness of things is the first step to
00:14:45
Speaker
Okay, do I want to make a change to this or do I want to keep doing things the same way? You can make a decision, but without having the information, you cannot even make the decision. So that's the good first news.
00:15:00
Speaker
I don't believe in change that is going to happen immediately, like a miracle. I'm not that type of person that I'm going to give you a pill. And yeah, tomorrow your life will be calm. If you read my book or listen to my words, your life will change forever from this instant. I'm not that type of person. And also for myself, when I have made changes in my life has been usually a very slow process. I usually take the
00:15:30
Speaker
strategy of trial and error, a very actionable thing you can do. In the next 15 days, you can try writing at the end of the day. You get a piece of, it can be a post-it. I'm not going to ask you to write a diary every day, but you can write three things that you really, really enjoyed of your day.
00:15:53
Speaker
Three things that you're really, really disliked and write every day for 15 days, even if it's the same thing. In fact, that's good. Maybe some days you will notice that you write the same thing. I didn't enjoy spending time with this person or I really love doing this during this time.
00:16:11
Speaker
After 15 days, you will see patterns and maybe you will see something very obvious like you already knew, but seeing it in 15 small post-its maybe will make you take an action. It's like, okay, I really dislike this thing. I want to remove it from my life. The idea is that you add more things that you enjoy to your life and remove things that you dislike.
00:16:34
Speaker
in a slow way so if you do that over time you will see big changes if you do small changes on a daily basis over months and years it will change the way you are now
00:16:50
Speaker
The way you will be in two, three years from now, it will be very different. You can take the perspective of what is the worst that could happen. Then when you look through that lens, the worst that can happen is not that bad. It's like maybe if you're stuck into a job that you don't like, maybe you're very fearful that
00:17:12
Speaker
Maybe you find a new job and it will be even worse. But the worst that can happen is that you change jobs and maybe later you have to change jobs again. It's nothing. You will become stronger in the process. That's how I see change.
00:17:33
Speaker
Now for a word from Mulberry Bowe, who have collaborated with us to develop this series. I spoke to Simon Bullock of Mulberry Bowe. Does he ever feel it's right to encourage clients to say no so that they have the time and space to enjoy what they have? Here's what he had to say.
00:17:51
Speaker
That's a great question. No can be the most powerful word in English language at times, can't it? But yeah, we all seem to find it hard sometimes to turn down opportunities to do things when we're asked or prompted.
00:18:04
Speaker
Many of the clients that we look after, they have or they have had in the past successful careers as business owners or city professionals. And that tends to mean they're a magnet for all kinds of offers from friends or contacts. My main technique for helping them is just to manage that by sharing experiences that other clients have had on an anonymous basis, of course, but still real life examples that can be really helpful for them to understand the power of no. Simplicity can be its own reward sometimes, can't it?
00:18:34
Speaker
Thank
Japanese Mastery and Stress Management
00:18:36
Speaker
you. That was Simon Bullock, the founder of Mulberry Bow. And now back to Hector Garcia and his remarkable journey into the culture of long-lived people in Japan.
00:18:49
Speaker
Another really important concept that you cover in your book is the act of entering flow state in your work or activity, being able to shut out distractions. And I was fascinated by some of the examples that you talked about from Japan, where you observe people working on physically repetitive, minutely detailed tasks that we would probably consider quite boring. What have you learned from looking at these Japanese masters?
00:19:15
Speaker
I learned that I might never be able to become a Japanese master. I'm a very patient person, but I realized that there is a completely next level of patients. I think in the book
00:19:36
Speaker
I thought I was very impressed. I visited a factory of, how do you say in English, not pencils, but now the word comes in Japanese to my mind. Was it for paint brushes? Yeah, paint brushes. That's the word in English.
00:19:52
Speaker
and the way they even select each of the heads and look at like have them all exactly the same size very very detailed work and they have a special employees who have been doing this for decades and it's very difficult to replace those people they're very like only
00:20:20
Speaker
When they need to, they train them just to become that. So that's a whole new level that maybe if we have listeners who want to become artists, you can get inspired by them.
00:20:37
Speaker
and try to achieve their level. For me, it serves as inspiration. Like, wow, this is something I can aim for. For myself, it's about writing. I want to become a better writer. So for me, it's about I have to be very patient. I have to choose the words in my books to become a better writer. So for each of us, we can find inspiration in the masters.
00:21:02
Speaker
And I think it's not only true from the Japanese, but usually when you look at a very good artist, it doesn't matter the nationality. They are very, very patient and they can spend hours and hours every day for decades improving just a small thing in their technique. That's how you make a genius, I think.
00:21:27
Speaker
So we've talked about some of the physical activities that you looked at in the book. I want to talk about mental states now, and I want to start with stress, which seems to surround us like a fog in modern life. If people are thinking about a second life, do you think they should be aiming for one that tries to completely eliminate stress?
00:21:48
Speaker
I see bad stress and good stress. Now bad stress is the stress that is always with us 24 hours and is sneaking into our minds
00:22:03
Speaker
And we are always in a threatened state. We wake up, and we are already thinking, oh, it's going to be a busy day. I have to do this, this, this, this. And at the end of the day, you're still on your smartphone when you're in bed, and you are checking emails. And you're still like, oh, I didn't have time to finish this.
00:22:24
Speaker
and then you wake up in the morning you cannot sleep you wake up at night thinking i forgot this you wake up in the morning and again you are stressed all day and then go the weekend and you're stressed with your family
00:22:39
Speaker
And you're always in a state of do more, do more, do more, do more. Which is also, we have to blame this hustle culture. You have to do more and more and more to be successful in life. I don't think that's true. In fact, I'm realizing it's more about doing less, less and less. They almost do nothing except what is important and crucial for your life.
00:23:06
Speaker
If you enter the mindset of doing more and more and more, it becomes almost like an addiction. You need to do more and more things and you are not doing it because you enjoy it. It's a stressful mechanism. That's a very bad stress.
00:23:21
Speaker
Now there is, I think there is good stress that when you are normally in a relaxed state and you have something that is, oh wow, it's a challenging thing and you are looking forward to it, you will become stressed. I'm thinking now in terms of hormones, your body will stare at like adrenaline
00:23:42
Speaker
and you will become being you will be you will be excited for something and then you will do that and at the end you will be tired and then okay now later you relax and that's the way human beings are supposed to be operating
00:23:57
Speaker
That's how our biology is. To be a very concrete example is, for example, now talking with you, I was excited before coming here. So 30 minutes before, I was, oh, I'm going to be in the evidence-based investor podcast. I have to be ready. So that makes me excited. And also a little bit of good stress. OK. And I'm stressed.
00:24:26
Speaker
When I finish, I will be tired and as you know, I want to relax and I will probably say it will be eight night, nine at night. I will disconnect all digital devices and I will relax.
00:24:40
Speaker
And that's the way we are supposed to operate. Let's turn to negative emotions. You have some interesting things to say in the book. You contrast a Western approach, I suppose, which is to do with trying to eliminate negative emotions through rational processes in your mind. And I think you contrast that with a more Japanese way of acceptance.
00:25:08
Speaker
Going back to awareness, you recognize the bad emotion.
00:25:13
Speaker
And you look at it, you look at it, and at some point you're like, okay, it will disappear. Or it might not. You just contemplate it. When you become angry about something, it is very interesting to analyze why are you angry. And there are different levels. Like the first level is usually because this person said this rude thing to me. But then you can analyze the second level is
00:25:43
Speaker
Why was it rude? Your ego has been attacked or your pride has been attacked in a subtle way, maybe. You are being angry just because your sense of pride has been attacked. But it is a very deep emotion, but it has no connection with the reality. Once you start looking at things like this, it's really interesting.
00:26:14
Speaker
This is Jonathan Hollow, and you're listening to Second Lives.
Moai Groups and Hector's Cultural Adaptation
00:26:18
Speaker
I'm interviewing Hector Garthia, whose book about long lives in Japan, Ikigai, has been translated into more than 70 languages. Another concept that you cover in the book is the Moai, which is something I understand to be a Japanese model for collective support and resilience. Can you build up a picture of it for us?
00:26:41
Speaker
Moai is a word used for communities of people that they don't really need to have a common purpose, but the purpose of it is just to be together.
00:26:58
Speaker
they put money every month or every certain time every month they collect the money and with that money they do activities and depending on what they like it might be doing karaoke together or having parties together dancing the party i said we were before the three birthday with the old people it was a moai that paid for everything
00:27:24
Speaker
And other times when someone in the moai is going through bad times, the money from everyone might be used to help them.
00:27:33
Speaker
For example, if there is a typhoon and it destroys one house, the Moai, maybe it's the whole neighborhood is in the same Moai. They have collected some thousands of dollars over the years. They will use it to repair the house of the person who cannot rebuild it. So that's the purpose of Moai, to have a sense of security. Like whatever it happens, you will have a second family.
00:28:02
Speaker
And this is very useful in villages where there is many old people. And this is something that Japan is having trouble. There is not enough young people to support older people.
00:28:16
Speaker
And I think it's something that is going to start happening also in other developed countries in the world. And feeling supported is very important. When you're old, you need a community around you. So you feel that you have someone to help you at any time or be with you. Sometimes like Moise is just about getting together and have a cup of tea together. And what kind of scale are these on?
00:28:44
Speaker
The ones I know from Ogimi, it was between 20 and 50 people, so people with small list is here to get, but they share places, like the city hall will have like community centers, like three or four, and then they will share, okay, on Wednesdays, we will use this one for this moai.
00:29:07
Speaker
or maybe they will gather in a restaurant and each moi has like a head, like that is also very Japanese. It's like a neighborhood, it's like an extra layer of like neighbor's organization.
00:29:22
Speaker
It seems to me that living in Japan has changed you in many ways. And at one level, you've written a multi-million bestseller, which wouldn't have happened without your deep engagement with Japanese culture. But I feel like the changes are more profound than that.
00:29:39
Speaker
You're becoming my psychologist. I don't know. There would be a question. This is a very good question. In fact, can you describe yourself 20 years ago? So difficult, right? I don't know.
00:29:55
Speaker
I know that I'm a big, I've been writing a diary since I was 14, 15 years old and I keep that habit. And sometimes I go back and read my diary and I know it feels very, very weird. It's like reading something that was written by someone else.
00:30:20
Speaker
So I feel that it is true what you said. I am a totally different person. But some themes are the same. There is some kernel in me that stays the same, is the same actor.
00:30:37
Speaker
And maybe Japan made me more patient. That's one thing. It has made me more perseverant. For me it's very difficult to separate Japan with getting older. I've changed my perspective of a long time ago I thought being a stubborn was a bad thing.
00:30:57
Speaker
Now I think being a stubborn for the right things is a good thing. So I think I've become more stubborn. So maybe I'm becoming more stubborn, more patient, more perseverant, like on what I know for sure that is my kigai or my things I really like doing, I kept persevering. 20 years ago, Hector might have like just give up and try something more shiny.
00:31:26
Speaker
Do you feel that you're more at home in Japanese culture than your Danish culture? I don't feel at home anywhere. That has become a weird thing for me. I think I'm a citizen of the world. When I'm here in Japan, there's some parts of my personality that get activated. I don't know how to explain it.
00:31:52
Speaker
I think there are studies about when you go into a culture, human beings will change, depending on the context. If you are with your family, if you are alone with your partner, if you are with your friends, we change a little bit humans.
00:32:09
Speaker
If you are in a different culture, you will change. When I go back to Spain after 15 days, there are things inside me like the old Spanish sector, it gets activated. I start speaking more loudly and saying things more in Japanese or more lately, speaking more quietly and things like that. I'd like to ask about planning, which is a recurring theme of this series. Did you plan the last 10 years of your life?
00:32:39
Speaker
No, absolutely not. I usually think more of what I can achieve in 10 years than what I can achieve in one year.
Hector's Long-term Goals and Compass-driven Approach
00:32:50
Speaker
So that's how I think. Now I think like, okay, in the next 10 years,
00:32:55
Speaker
I want to write five more books. That's my general mindset. I don't think 2023 I have to publish one book because probably I won't. I already know I'm set for I need more than one year to write a good book. But in 10 years, writing five books is a good. So also with experience in life, you get a better sense of how to make realistic plans.
00:33:23
Speaker
When you are before I would say okay this year 20 I don't know 2010 I want to do like these 30 things and you realize that those 30 things is it would take you what decade to do those not one year
00:33:39
Speaker
If you try to set 100 calls and you don't achieve any of them or just one, it's better to just set one or two and then go for it. I like more having a compass than having a map. Or having a map that is a little bit, you know more or less you want to go to this island, this island and this island. But maybe while you are heading,
00:34:07
Speaker
North you want to change a little bit and visit this other island and this other one and this other one and so I like making changes along the way and having an overall plan I guess it's a good thing because it will keep you following the same time or the same compass. Finally just ask you to remind people about your book Icky Guy
00:34:35
Speaker
at the beginning of the book I say I dedicate this book to my brother who told me I don't know what to do with my life brother help me
00:34:48
Speaker
I think it will help you. Either way, if you don't know what to do with your life, it will help you. And I don't give any promises. The only promise I give you is that it will help you to start in your path. The rest is your responsibility. Well, thank you, Hector, for bringing a completely different perspective on life and longevity to the Second Live series.
00:35:18
Speaker
If you've enjoyed this episode, please bookmark this podcast in your app so that you don't miss the next episode of Second Lives. And I'd like to thank again, Mulberry Bow, a chartered financial planning boutique in the city of London that has worked with us to develop this series. For more information, just Google Mulberry Bow Wealth Planning or follow the links in the notes for this podcast.