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Is Gender Confusion a Sin? Pastors Break Down the Controversial Debate
39 Plays8 days ago
In this episode, Dan Sanchez, Pastor Ridley Barron, Jon Ballard, and Kyle Hess dive into the complex topics of homosexuality and gender identity, addressing how these issues align with biblical teachings. They discuss the church's stance, rooted in scripture, on homosexuality as sin while emphasizing the importance of grace and redemption. The conversation also explores gender dysphoria and the cultural confusion surrounding it, highlighting how Christians can engage compassionately and truthfully in these discussions. The hosts stress the significance of understanding God’s created order and lovingly guiding others while remaining grounded in truth.
Timestamps:
- 00:01 - Introduction: Setting up the discussion on homosexuality and gender
- 01:14 - Ridley explains the church’s stance on homosexuality and gender identity 03:07 - The cultural obsession with sex and its spiritual implications
- 04:54 - Kyle discusses Satan’s strategy of targeting identity and marriage
- 09:45 - Is gender dysphoria considered a sin?
- 18:06 - Dan and the hosts explore the distinct nature of identity-based sins
- 23:11 - How to approach believers struggling with same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria
- 27:06 - Engaging with unbelievers who are neutral or undecided on these topics
- 29:44 - Responding to opposition when holding a biblical worldview on gender and sexuality
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast Discussion
00:00:01
grovehillchurch
Welcome back to the Grove Hill Church podcast. I'm Dan Sanchez and I'm joined by Ridley John and Kyle. And today we're gonna be talking about some hot topics related to homosexuality and gender.
Truth Series and Youth Engagement
00:00:13
grovehillchurch
Because Kyle, you've been going through a truth series with the youth. And honestly, every time I'm attending Youth Night and helping volunteer and leading some conversations with the kids, I'm always got more questions that I'm like, oh, but there's nuances to
Understanding Homosexuality and Gender
00:00:25
grovehillchurch
these. And maybe maybe not for the junior high, but like,
00:00:29
grovehillchurch
for the adults, I'd wanna dive into some of the nuances around this topic, because it is, it can be a complex topic, and there's lots of different thoughts out there about this. Now, I think we're mostly aligned on this topic, but even in the pre-show, when I was starting to tease some of the questions to Ridley and John here,
00:00:45
grovehillchurch
I started getting into nuances of a really good conversation around some
Church's Stance and Grace on Homosexuality
00:00:50
grovehillchurch
of these topics. So I thought we'd open it up for our congregation so we can better understand the truth, better understand God's purpose, and better understand how to deal with these topics as the society like screams louder and louder about them. So first one I'd love to open up to you, Ridley, is what what is our current church stance on homosexuality first and then on the gender stuff going on?
00:01:14
Ridley
Well, our stance, obviously, because we hold the Bible to be so high and infallible without error, we... We believe that homosexuality is a sin that's no greater or lesser than any other sin. It doesn't disqualify you more than something else or anything like that, but um we also hold out the same grace to people who are caught in a pattern of homosexuality. We believe that people can be redeemed, restored, um that you can be rescued from the choices that align yourself with homosexuality. So, um yeah, and there and there's some nuances even to that answer, but
Church's View on Gender Creation
00:01:51
Ridley
Short answer is we believe the homosexuality is not God's will for men or women.
00:01:58
grovehillchurch
What about gender? The gender disconfusion out there?
00:02:01
Ridley
um that That one's almost easier for me to answer. The Bible says in the beginning God had made the heavens and the earth and as part of that he created male and female, created he them. There's no other gender. God does not make mistakes. He knew exactly what he was doing when he put us together and the way he put us together.
00:02:20
Ridley
So to make it as plain and simple as I can make it, you are what you were born to be.
Society's Gender Obsession vs. Biblical Principles
00:02:27
grovehillchurch
It seems like the society has gotten so hyper focused on these topics and it just gets weirder and darker and weirder and then darker.
00:02:34
Ridley
Yeah.
00:02:36
grovehillchurch
gets I mean the gender thing in particular has gone crazy with 500 different genders or something out there, and TikToker is saying, my gender is cake.
00:02:45
Ridley
Hmm.
00:02:48
grovehillchurch
You're like, excuse me, cake?
00:02:51
Ridley
Yeah.
00:02:51
grovehillchurch
You can refer to me as cake self. I'm like, okay. You know, it's just the weirdest stuff out there. And you're like, why why do we think this has become such a focus of this society? Why has this become such a ah like a forefront issue for them?
00:03:06
grovehillchurch
What do you think, Kyle?
00:03:07
Ridley
I would say that we are we are so enamored with the idea of sex.
00:03:07
grovehillchurch
oh
00:03:11
Ridley
We are a very sexualized society. um ah I can't say this for sure, but I'm betting that probably 60 percent of the world doesn't have these conversations like we do here in America, because we are just so focused on and again enamored by sex. And when you follow the logical downfall of mankind, the more we remove God and the Holy Spirit from the equation, the the logical downfall of mankind is that sex no longer is just about sex the way God designed it. It's about creating it in its most immoral and rudimentary kind of
00:03:48
Ridley
lustful thinking. You know, we just pursue those things. There's no boundaries for us
Spiritual Implications of Sexual Sin
00:03:52
Ridley
anymore. So that's my thought.
00:03:52
Jon
All right.
00:03:56
grovehillchurch
Where'd they go?
00:03:56
Jon
yeah
00:03:57
Kyle
I think I think Satan focuses on areas that are incredibly important. We even talked about it today. ah He focuses on the marriage. right He wants to break up the marriage because that's a ah picture of what Christ in the church looks like. And so he takes these things that are incredibly important and breaks them down. And our identity is where he's attacking. And so the identity of these students and you you see it's in much younger ages.
00:04:21
Kyle
that it's starting and it's becoming um kind of trendy or fattish. But the the goal behind it is Satan wants us to doubt who we are. um And there was there was a reason I led the the Truth series and we talked about the creation of man and woman. We talked about the roles of a woman. We talked about the roles of a man.
00:04:41
Kyle
And then once you get to the topic of homosexuality, it's kind of null and void because you've already established the two ways God wants someone to respond, and that's in the role of a female and the role of the male, and he created those, and that's your identity.
00:04:54
Kyle
And so if he can get you to question that, if Satan can get you to question that, if Satan could um trivile triple like tri trivialize that, um thank you.
00:05:03
Ridley
There you go. That's it.
00:05:05
Kyle
Thank you very much. um he He puts us in a position where we're doubting who God created us to be and if if I'm in that where I'm Running off with some tangent of a gender ah Then I'm not where God wants me And so it does talk about homosexuality in the Bible, and each time it does, it's talking about ah the wrath or judgment of God, ah just like other other sins. It does say that these homosexuality is a sexual sin, and I can't remember the exact verse, but it says the reason sexual sin is so bad is because it's a sin against your own body, which is a supposed to be a temple for the Holy Spirit.
00:05:47
Kyle
And so other sins, it says, are against others. And um sexual sin is against your own body, um which is your temple. And so that's why that's why it has some heavier weight to it than um other sins is because it's a different level.
00:06:04
grovehillchurch
that is 1 Corinthians 6, 18.
00:06:07
Kyle
Thank you.
00:06:07
grovehillchurch
For central morality is a sin against your own body. Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who lives in who lives in you and was given to you
Cultural Identities vs. Traditional Beliefs
00:06:15
grovehillchurch
by God.
00:06:15
Kyle
semi-decent paraphrase I did there.
00:06:16
grovehillchurch
So you yeah, you'd agree.
00:06:20
Ridley
It was Corinthians, according to Col.
00:06:20
grovehillchurch
John, what do you think?
00:06:22
Jon
I think I go back to the the comments you made and and just the, you know, shot in the dark number of how many genders there are. I think this whole culture, and you pointed it out Ridley, ah a lot of first world countries have these problems because we relied on self. You go to the second and third world countries and They're in their simplest forms. They don't have so many things cluttering up their life, their daily routine. They just think, oh yeah, a man's a man, a woman's a woman, but yet whenever we get into this first world society, you see it a lot in Europe. You see it a lot in the America, ah you know, Canada, North America. You see a lot of these thoughts of I have to do something loud and boisterous so somebody can,
00:07:17
Jon
gravitate towards me so I can get clicks, so I can get likes, and I think that's what it is. We're all competing for the attention, but we all know as believers that that attention gets fulfilled ultimately in Christ, but yet when you try to artificially you know, insert that into your life, you're gonna continue to seek in whatever it may be ah combined with satisfaction of self. ah So it ends up being, I wanna be a fox today, or I wanna be this. It competes with all the other things of what you know scripture talks about. And it's, I'm pleasing myself and how do others look at me versus how does God look at me?
00:08:04
grovehillchurch
So you're essentially making them you're saying that uh Because we don't have the same kind of level of problems anymore. We're like manufacturing new problems to deal with
Confusion over Gender Roles and Social Constructs
00:08:14
Jon
I think, yeah, I think humanity is always gonna be humanity. There'll be problems, whether you're first world or third world countries, but I think they can become very cloudy whenever we, you know, inundate ourselves with so much crud ah to keep up with, you know, keeping up with the Joneses, so to speak.
00:08:32
Ridley
Yeah. And, you know, as much as John is exactly right with what he's saying, this all goes back to the very same strategy that Satan's used all along. Go back to the book of Genesis where he said, did God really say this? The whole idea was if I can get people to question God and his wisdom, then I can get them to do anything. And that's literally what he's done. He's he's gotten us to question our identity, our sexuality, our gender.
00:08:57
Ridley
a word We're questioning everything and sadly we're coming up with all the wrong answers.
00:09:03
grovehillchurch
So in preparing for this conversation, I started thinking about questions, and I realized there was one thing that I wasn't quite sure on, and that is around this gender thing. Now, the Bible is very clear about homosexuality being a sin, and it's just kind of assumed that man or man or woman or woman, it's just stated that way throughout the Bible, so it never really points that out. I don't think it was a problem back then or was a thing that people wrestled with or came out saying they were one gender or they're felt this way. It seems like a relatively new thing even if there's been like very small instances of it throughout history. But is is gender dysphoria or pretending to be a different gender a sin?
00:09:45
Kyle
I'm going to just say ah yes, because um we're we're stepping outside of what God wants for us. ah We're missing the mark of what He created us to be. um So the discussion kind of goes into these areas of um Let's look at Jacob and Esau. right One was more prone to cook the soup and one was more prone to go out and slaughter the elk. you know um I have a niece who would much rather prefer to go kill a deer and skin it and and do that than to go get her nails done. right um But that doesn't mean that she falls into some compromised area of gender. ah it just It just means that she has different likes and preferences because you know her dad does or or whatever it may be. um
00:10:27
Kyle
we just we've socially constructed something that if you're feeling that way then we need to run with that support it you're born in the wrong body you're born the wrong person and God's going no you're stepping outside of my design for you and so if we're stepping outside of what Our design was by God.
Criticism of Healthcare in Gender Identity Issues
00:10:46
Kyle
I believe we're missing the mark. um The Bible doesn't really talk about gender confusion other than telling you that women are created this way for a purpose. Men are created this way for a purpose and we need to stick within those boundaries.
00:11:02
Ridley
Yeah. In the pre-session, we were talking about this and I told Dan, I said, I think it depends too on what you mean by pretend.
00:11:10
Jon
Yeah.
00:11:10
Ridley
If you're talking about as a lifestyle, that yes, I'm going to try to pretend to be something I'm not, then absolutely, you used the right phrase there, Kyle missed the mark, which is literally sin.
00:11:21
Ridley
God created you to be a certain way. That doesn't mean you have to live up to the stereotypes of what the world says those things are. You know, with the idea of a man being all brutish and tough and and outdoorsy and all those kinds of things, there are men who have contributed greatly to society who you would probably describe as being more towards the effeminate side of things, but it doesn't make them women. um But I also want to be real clear because there might be some young listeners in here going, well, what what does that exactly mean? um We're not talking about somebody dressing themselves up for a play and dressing like a girl to pretend to be a woman. That's not what we're talking about.
00:11:59
Ridley
um My dad did that when he was a little league president for a fundraiser. He dressed up like a cheerleader and put on a wig and for and for two hours one afternoon was a female cheerleader. That's not sinful.
00:12:10
Ridley
That's that's pretend. It's make-believe, okay? I think it's the problem of when that make-believe becomes your reality, or you start trying to force it to become your reality.
00:12:19
Jon
Yeah.
00:12:20
Ridley
And then it goes back to this this verse that we we use a lot of different places, but I think it's appropriate here. Bad company corrupts google good character. um When you start to put yourself in the company of other people who reinforce those false images you have, then it just takes you further down that road. It makes it easier for you to deny all the truth around you and instead listen to the lies that people continue to feed you because you're in the company of bad people.
00:12:45
grovehillchurch
you had a good framework for how to know if you're in God's will for your calling and I actually think that same kind of framework applies here. Like there's a lot of things you can do within and live and be righteous.
00:12:57
grovehillchurch
Like God gives you a lot of room to think and choose and enjoy his creation and to do all kinds of stuff.
00:13:01
Ridley
Yeah, right.
00:13:04
grovehillchurch
What to do for work, how you do your work, there's a lot of room but then there's some clear boundaries of like what God created
00:13:06
Ridley
Okay.
00:13:11
grovehillchurch
creation to be um and then we so when we start messing with those we cross over the line into not working in his his his created order and obviously it can lead to all kinds of problems especially if you're getting medical attention for ah to help you live in that false reality right hence hence the what was it Vanderbilt got busted for
00:13:24
Ridley
Yeah.
00:13:29
Ridley
yeah
00:13:32
grovehillchurch
for profiteering off of essentially botched surgeries because the body does not want to be corrected so the body will fight any surgeries people have to change their gender um and therefore they have to go in for multiple visits very profitable and they got caught doing that um because the body wants to fit in god's order and will fight against those kinds of things and there's not that there's place there's of course places where it's still within because maybe you need a artificial heart valve or something like that but
00:13:48
Ridley
yeah
00:14:03
grovehillchurch
Uh, I don't know.
00:14:04
Ridley
i would This is an area because of my experience working with medical in a helpful care world and don't want to take us too far down this path.
00:14:05
grovehillchurch
it's a good
00:14:10
Ridley
This is a place where I would say the healthcare world is absolutely out of bounds by being a part of
00:14:12
grovehillchurch
Yeah.
00:14:14
Jon
Mmhmm.
Biblical Roles of Men and Women
00:14:15
Ridley
this.
00:14:15
Jon
Mmhmm.
00:14:15
grovehillchurch
yeah
00:14:15
Ridley
um The the hippa the but Hippocratic oath that they have pledged their allegiance to for centuries now says, I will cause no harm to someone. You're literally causing harm when you try to make somebody that is a male to do a female or a female into a male, because that requires chemical kind of stuff, hormonal kind of stuff.
00:14:35
Ridley
It also requires surgery. And and sadly in our culture today, America, We see surgery as sometimes a necessary thing to do or even an optional thing to do. Surgery should be the last thing you do because your body doesn't like to be invaded like that.
00:14:49
Jon
Yeah.
00:14:50
Ridley
It it reacts against those things. And so people who run around and just getting things cut off here and tucked here and nipped there, they're asking for trouble. Especially when the only reason you're wanting to do it is because you grew up being a boy that played with dolls and so that you think that makes you a girl.
00:15:09
grovehillchurch
I remember I had a friend actually who was like your man's man and prided himself and being the man's man driving his motorcycle wearing the beard loving and barbecues and loving football you know and he was that guy and one time on our our discipleship campus he had to go pick up a guest speaker speaking in our chapel
00:15:24
Ridley
yeah
00:15:26
Ridley
Yeah.
00:15:30
grovehillchurch
drove all the way down to DFW and picked up this guy. And the guest speaker is a guy who spoke on sexuality from a godly point of view, but he was a guy who was like, like grew up with women, was like a flaming
00:15:36
Ridley
yeah
00:15:42
grovehillchurch
like homosexual guy for a long time finally meets the Lord follows that path gets saved like Mary's gets gets married has kids but still has that like like that that slang, you know saying like that the accent heavy and Has all the mannerisms that come with that my friend picks him up and my friend told me after that session down to there He's like I've never been more challenged in my manhood from that guy
00:15:58
Jon
And.
00:16:11
Ridley
and
00:16:12
grovehillchurch
Because man manliness is not The macho man and it's not Arnold Schwarzenegger It is godliness and it's following Jesus and that guy does demonstrated Jesus more than any of my macho man stuff could have ever ever done or portrayed and I've always remembered that thinking like well we Well, we have some stereotypes around these things God set some really clear parameters around them, but at the same time
00:16:20
Kyle
Mm.
00:16:39
grovehillchurch
Godliness is the is what we want to go after.
00:16:40
Ridley
yeah.
00:16:41
grovehillchurch
Godliness and pursuing his righteousness is the ultimate way to be a man, also the ultimate way to be a woman within the way God's made those two genders to be.
00:16:51
Ridley
Uh
00:16:52
Kyle
that was the ah That was the approach on the roles of a man.
00:16:54
Ridley
-huh.
00:16:56
Kyle
and we looked We went straight to Ephesians where it talks about the husband and the wife and the absolute first and priority command that God gave the man was to love, right?
00:17:08
Kyle
It wasn't to beat up adversary adversaries. It wasn't to go get your gun and sling it over your shoulder and go run into a field. It was to love your wife. And so that was like setting the standard for the man. All the other scriptural things apply to the man. But when it came to who you're supposed to be as a husband and a father, it came down
Identity, Pride, and Sin Discussions
00:17:28
Kyle
to love. And it was just mimicking what Jesus did.
00:17:36
grovehillchurch
Another thing I want to talk about is something that I've kind of came to a conclusion to in my own musings. I could be wrong on this, but I do find that this gender thing and homosexuality are a little different than other sins, not because they're worse or separate you more from God than other sin, but I do find that there's a different thing with this and I'd like to talk about it, but I kind of came to a conclusion that they're different because with most sin, people don't identify as that sin.
00:18:06
grovehillchurch
Nobody walks around with a shirt saying adulterer, or waves the flag saying, I love being angry. Yet with these two things, people wave flags in it saying, I am this and take pride in it. Hence the pride thing is such a big deal because we're literally identifying as the thing that Christians are calling sin. And I think that's why it's more of a march, much more contentious issue versus race, racism. Like we're actually both in agreement that racism is wrong. We just, sometimes we disagree on like what we're even defining as racism now, right? In that conversation.
00:18:42
grovehillchurch
But in this one, it's contentious because they're literally we're, we're saying something in sin that's saying it's almost like calling they are sin. It makes it a different issue. So am I right in identifying it is like, it's not a worse sin, but it's different because of how people are identifying as it.
00:18:59
Ridley
I think so in this regard, ah this morning survey I read among evangelicals, 98% of them said that adultery was a sin, but only 86% of them said homosexuality is a sin. And why I find that interesting, I think it's because what you're talking about here, people people identify as a homosexual or identify as a transgender person, it goes right to the core of their identity.
00:19:26
Ridley
It's not just about a behavior, which is an external thing. It's about how they think, feel, their emotions, all of that stuff. So because they so identify with it, they become even more passionate about its defense.
00:19:39
Ridley
I don't know anybody who's out there running around raving a flag going, let's make adultery legal. let's you know but But yeah, the homosexuals and the transgender, they are fighting for this because it it's the very essence of who they are.
00:19:47
grovehillchurch
Mm hmm.
00:19:52
Ridley
And and Satan has convinced them that's who they are in that season.
00:19:56
grovehillchurch
like trying to think of any other sin that people champion like they do this one and I can't I can't think of any I'm like okay steal murder what else do we got
Complexity of Sin in Modern Culture
00:20:07
Ridley
and And there's no way marching down the street saying let's make all lies legal.
00:20:07
Kyle
right
00:20:09
Jon
Yeah.
00:20:10
Ridley
I mean, yeah.
00:20:12
Kyle
yeah
00:20:12
grovehillchurch
coveting I'm like no people do it but they don't champion it <unk> like putting that on
00:20:17
Kyle
and the yeah I think ah one of the things I told the students was if society is pushing it, it's guaranteed to be against God's word. And so they they push abortion, right? And so what does the truth of God's word say? All lives matter and we we support ah choosing life in that situation. um Homosexuality, society is pushing it. What does scripture say? And like you're saying, Dan, um in Genesis, God says, I created man in my image.
00:20:47
Kyle
And so that's like the foundation of who a person is. And to take that and say, you know what, God didn't make me right and I'm switching the role and I'm going to choose a different gender or I'm going to be something else um is really like the biggest slap in the face to to God that there is, right?
00:21:04
Kyle
um He's still merciful and gracious and offers forgiveness in any situation. um So if you're currently in that situation where you're choosing a different identity, um you're not too far gone. God's forgiveness is there. um But it is really a slap in the face to His his creation.
00:21:23
Kyle
um He created us in His image. And so um it's pretty deep when you're taking who God created you to be and choosing or manipulating that to to stand for something else.
00:21:35
Jon
I think Kyle brings up a ah great point in that because it is, it's a trickle down effect that if you can take away Genesis one, whatever, I think 26 or 27 and us being created in the image of God, a very foundational, you know, we are.
00:21:51
Jon
image bearers. And if that can be taken away, you can start to chip away at the argument of who God is. And it begins like you you guys mentioned, you know, abortion, you know, then into science and creation and what God's done. You take away those first foundational elements, becomes a little bit easier to chip away at every other one.
00:22:16
grovehillchurch
And it's funny because I don't know what this thinking leads to is it's not like you treat them differently because this sin is being handled differently than other sins. But it certainly makes me a little bit, and I find that it's a little bit more of a dangerous ah of a sin because of how it wraps around your identity.
Supporting Believers with Identity Struggles
00:22:33
grovehillchurch
um Like drunkenness can be a bad thing. It can even be hereditary, right? It can even be passed from one generation to a next. Yet it doesn't wrap its identity around you the way these ones do.
00:22:45
grovehillchurch
um making it harder to shake or deal with. So to finish this episode, I want to know, like, how should Christians and our congregation specifically deal with these three different types of people? Okay, because I think there's three, there's a bunch of groups out there, but I'm just going to pick these three. I'm going to say first, believers struggling with same sex attraction or gender dysphoria. How should we approach those people?
00:23:11
Ridley
I think we have to lovingly encourage them in their battle against those desires. To me, homosexual attraction is the same as a man's attraction for a woman that's not his wife. um those kinds of those kinds of desires pop up, you battle them, you fight against them, ah you you get in the company of other believers who are going to encourage you in that battle, you put transparency in your life, those kinds of things. I think the act of sinfulness occurs when you give in to those desires, not just because they pop in your head. ah To me, that's not the sin. The sin is that you let them dwell there and you act on them. And that's the big difference. and so ah
00:23:48
Ridley
As a church, we need to lovingly come alongside people who struggle with that. we need to We need to shout it from the rooftops of our churches. If you're struggling with homosexuality, you belong here.
00:23:58
Jon
Yeah.
00:23:58
Ridley
Because we want to help you fight that battle.
00:24:02
Kyle
Yeah, I think I'm actually extremely empathetic towards people who who struggle with that. um Statistically in conversations that I've had with people, typically 80 to 90%, it stemmed from an event that happened in their life. And so if I'm talking to a girl who is sexually molested by her uncle,
00:24:19
Kyle
She's not going to be prone to having a healthy relationship with a male. She's going to err towards the size of safety maybe and with a female because she was abused by a male. And so I'm extremely empathetic and cautious on my approach to people who struggle with that because there's probably something earthly that happened to them um that has put them in that position. um I told the students I was on a college campus for a long time as a maintenance guy.
00:24:46
Kyle
And I was in the the pride room where they had their they're homosexual meetings and stuff like that. And my favorite thing to do was to invite someone to lunch and say, tell me your story. I'm going to tell you mine. And then they would tell me their story of where everything began from. And there was always an event or something that took place um where they didn't feel safe or there was something that compromised their security, um which made them err towards a certain sex or gender.
00:25:15
Kyle
And so um I'm empathetic towards them. And I think that like Ridley said, you're you're welcome here because we want to want to see where what we can do to help you and show you what true love from Jesus looks like.
00:25:29
Jon
Yeah, and I would say that same thing that both of these guys said. It has to start with the the first step of compassion and loving on one another. I mean, we're taking Christ's example in all these things. He loved on people and then he spoke to their need. And I think one of the things that the church, the Western church has not done a great job at is we say you know in the good times, hey, we want to speak to you know the way that God's designed this, but then we don't give the avenue of which they should go. We say, don't do this.
00:26:05
Jon
But then they're looking with their hands up like, okay, well, what now? Well, you don't just leave that space void in your life.
00:26:10
Ridley
Thank you.
00:26:13
Jon
You fill that with things
Interacting with Unbelievers and Critics
00:26:15
Jon
of God. And we say, you know, scripture, and but it's so true that that's exactly what Paul was doing. he was You know, we're going through acts right now in church and we see Paul's interaction with a very secular culture. He didn't say, just don't do that. He said, let me introduce you to this man that you need to have inserted into your life and become a part of your everyday breathe in, breathe out life. And also surrounding yourself with the community of people who love you and want to push you to who Jesus desires for you to be, not just don't do this. So.
00:26:52
grovehillchurch
Second group of people are unbelievers who are kind of on the fence about this stuff. And maybe they're kind of like, well, if it's not really hurting anybody else, who really cares? But they're generally not involved and don't think about it a lot.
00:27:06
Kyle
That's a hard one because the world's going to act like the world. um And so without the conviction of the Holy Spirit inside your life, ah you know what's right is wrong and what's wrong looks right to you. and And so I think the best thing we can do is ah live the truth the best we can um because you'll always be able to tell a false or something that leads to destruction compared to something that's true and it's going to lead to bringing bringing glory to God.
00:27:31
Kyle
And so if we can get our act together as Christians and love our wives properly and show the world what a true love marriage looks like, that's going to be the best example we can. And then we're always called to speak truth to people. And so um through the power of the Holy Spirit, if if we get the opportunity to speak truth to someone about their ah lifestyle, um it needs to be done, delivered with grace and love. um But there's absolutely a time to speak and say, hey, there's only XX or XY chromosomes.
00:28:01
Kyle
and um we have to abide by those two options.
00:28:08
Ridley
Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with what did you just said, i'd probably can't say it much better, just um this idea that we get from scripture from John 8 where it says, you know the truth and the truth will set you free. If you're going to try to help somebody who does not have a grounding in scripture, doesn't know Jesus Christ, doesn't have that moral guidance in their lives, the best thing you can do is find a loving way to get them to scripture and get them to truth so that that truth can open their eyes to to how the world really operates.
00:28:37
Jon
I think also a loving way to speak into their life is by having consistency and not expecting these conversations to be a ah one and done, hey, I want them over. They they've got my side. I think a lot of these times and and I've heard conversations with friends and other people in ministry, but also with other ah friends, that it's a slow process of showing them Jesus.
00:29:07
Jon
So just to stay steady in their conversations, stay faithful to what God's given them a message to to give to them, you know, through His Word.
00:29:11
Ridley
Mm hmm.
00:29:16
Jon
But to stay steady in that, because it's not an overnight process.
00:29:23
grovehillchurch
And the last group of people is how should Christians respond to those who, unbelievers who berate Christians for holding a biblical worldview? How do you respond to the people that are like lambasting, arguing, even in your workplaces, conspiring to get you fired because you don't have the politically correct view?
00:29:44
Jon
Don't give oxygen to the fire.
00:29:46
Ridley
Ooh, that was good.
00:29:47
Jon
the no Don't respond with anger.
00:29:53
Jon
don't respond with anger. I think that's very easy to do whenever someone's oppressing your faith. So just take ah away the oxygen from the conversation. And a lot of times, and I think there's a time and a place for a response, but sometimes we respond quickly. It can be with anger. And then you almost sever the opportunity to speak, you know, any type of life into that, that conversation.
00:30:22
Ridley
I think if you're going to try to win somebody towards the truth, you don't win it by warring with them, you don't do it by walking with them. And so you've got to figure out how to do that in a peaceful manner where you just kindly say, hey, you know what? I understand you don't agree with where I am. You're not going to yell at me enough to get me to swap my opinion. So let's learn to walk together and see if we can't learn some things from each other.
00:30:46
Kyle
Yeah, the primary approach of Jesus was was love, even towards just meeting a sinner where they were at. And so if we could take that the same approach, and you don't have to agree, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not bow to the calf. They stood up on their own two feet. And so you don't have to agree with what's going on, um but they didn't do it arrogantly and flaunt it. They literally were doing it and were noticed by people. And then it got brought before Nebuchadnezzar. and so um Standing on our two feet do not succumb to what society is saying is an option for gender. um And at the same time, loving people out of that. if we don't If we don't love people, they're not going to want to come to the Jesus because they think it's all hate.
Conclusion and Importance of Church Discussions
00:31:26
Ridley
Yep.
00:31:26
grovehillchurch
It's a good word. I can see a proper response being slow to speak, slow to get angry, quick to listen, quick to have conversations, taking time to hear stories, maybe sharing your own, but going the gentle, the peaceful route in an attempt to share the light.
00:31:30
Ridley
Mm-hmm.
00:31:45
grovehillchurch
And if they don't want to, then it's more on them than on you for not taking that route.
00:31:48
Ridley
Yeah.
00:31:50
Ridley
I love what Kyle was talking about a minute ago and what he was doing on the campus. Taking the lunch, let's hear your story because many times they don't even realize the connection to their past that is there until they express it to somebody else.
00:31:54
grovehillchurch
Yeah.
00:31:55
Jon
Yeah.
00:32:03
grovehillchurch
It's amazing, too, how often people will de-escalate if you just take the time to smile, breathe, and like, tell me more. Tell me more about that. Let's go for a walk.
00:32:11
Kyle
Listen.
00:32:11
Ridley
Yeah.
00:32:12
Kyle
Yep.
00:32:13
grovehillchurch
If you don't respond, it takes all the fight out of them, and they talk, and they feel better.
00:32:13
Ridley
Listening is key.
00:32:15
Kyle
Yep.
00:32:21
grovehillchurch
So hopefully that can be the case. off Obviously, sometimes they probably won't talk to you because they're angry and have have their own issues, and there's a reason why they're fighting so strong, right?
00:32:26
Ridley
Yeah. Yup.
00:32:29
Jon
Yeah. That's one.
00:32:30
grovehillchurch
um Gentlemen, thank you so much for having this hard conversation with me. I know this is a ah ah topic we're hearing about all the time. and I don't think, I don't know, probably doesn't get discussed enough as far as bringing the truth to light about it, considering how much we hear about it from the world's point of view. So thanks for taking some time to bring it up with the youth, Kyle, and for bringing it here this podcast for the rest of our congregation.